Request MeFi Legal/General Advice on Fraud
October 20, 2006 6:52 PM Subscribe
I need help tracking down the source of a fraudulent transaction that has left me in a state of disbelief. It is quite appalling actually. Legal advice greatly appreciated.
This is quite a lengthy description due to the complicated matter and details involved, all of which completely blow my mind.
I was recently let go/resigned/position eliminated in early September. It was a mutual decision for the most part due to some unresolved issues that had been lingering for months. (The company was in the midst of acquisition talks and my direct supervisor just completely refused to acknowledge my existence).
I was promised a fairly large severance pay as well as unemployment benefit payments thru the state. I left the next day for a planned trip w/friends. I left all the paperwork (separation agreement) on my desk and planned on returning the following week to retrieve desk items and to sign the separation agreement.
I returned home to a certified letter from my former employer stating they had rescinded the offer of severance pay as well as notice that they would dispute any claim I made for unemployment benefits - "because I made an unauthorized payment out of the company checking account to your personal benefit. This action is in clear violation of corporate accounting procedures and may possibly constitute fraud thereby making the offer null and void as stated in section 11 of the separation agreement and general release".
I immediately called the Controller of the company asking what this transaction was and she forwarded me an electronic scan of a wire transfer document. The document is an authorization to transfer $299 from the company checking account into this (possibly) phony firm based in a different state. There is a phone number listed for the firm, and I have called approx 50 times now, leaving messages and I haven't heard back from anyone. I also called the police dept in that city to try and get a physical address or to file a police report for this fraudulent activity and I am not able to because 1) I didn't take the loss from my personal account and 2) My SS# wasn't used, only my name so it does not constitute as identity theft 3) They don't have any listing or information on a company by this name listed as the payee.
The wire transfer document has the mailing address for my former employer but lists my full name as the authorizing party. (I have absolutely no access to banking or accounting information and have never been an authorized check signer) The payee listed is untraceable. I have contacted information, the police (where I reside as well as where this firm supposedly does business) as well as extensive internet searches (and reverse lookup). My former employer was able to have the money debited from the payees account and refunded to them and they informed me that if I am able to prove I did not benefit from this transaction they will reverse their decision on the severance pay and unemployment benefits. I have the name of the bank where the money went but they are unable to release any information on the account holder due to privacy laws.
I cannot afford a lawyer to help investigate this, I have spoken to a dozen or so attorneys and asked for them to take it on a contingency basis but they are "at capacity" for contingency cases. This entire situation is so mind numbing to me. Anyone who knows me is baffled by this accusation. I have been framed by someone or just randomly hit by a shady operation. This transaction took place one month before my termination. I worked at my last job for 3 years and have nothing but stellar remarks from each member on the management team as well as the executive team. I know they don't really think I am behind this (especially for a mere $300!) but legally this is what they are required to do in light of the "evidence".
I sincerely appreciate any thoughts/advice on what step I can take next to try and figure out WHO DID benefit from this lousy $300 transfer. I am deeply disturbed by this and would like to make sure it doesn't continue happening to other innocent people in the world.
This is quite a lengthy description due to the complicated matter and details involved, all of which completely blow my mind.
I was recently let go/resigned/position eliminated in early September. It was a mutual decision for the most part due to some unresolved issues that had been lingering for months. (The company was in the midst of acquisition talks and my direct supervisor just completely refused to acknowledge my existence).
I was promised a fairly large severance pay as well as unemployment benefit payments thru the state. I left the next day for a planned trip w/friends. I left all the paperwork (separation agreement) on my desk and planned on returning the following week to retrieve desk items and to sign the separation agreement.
I returned home to a certified letter from my former employer stating they had rescinded the offer of severance pay as well as notice that they would dispute any claim I made for unemployment benefits - "because I made an unauthorized payment out of the company checking account to your personal benefit. This action is in clear violation of corporate accounting procedures and may possibly constitute fraud thereby making the offer null and void as stated in section 11 of the separation agreement and general release".
I immediately called the Controller of the company asking what this transaction was and she forwarded me an electronic scan of a wire transfer document. The document is an authorization to transfer $299 from the company checking account into this (possibly) phony firm based in a different state. There is a phone number listed for the firm, and I have called approx 50 times now, leaving messages and I haven't heard back from anyone. I also called the police dept in that city to try and get a physical address or to file a police report for this fraudulent activity and I am not able to because 1) I didn't take the loss from my personal account and 2) My SS# wasn't used, only my name so it does not constitute as identity theft 3) They don't have any listing or information on a company by this name listed as the payee.
The wire transfer document has the mailing address for my former employer but lists my full name as the authorizing party. (I have absolutely no access to banking or accounting information and have never been an authorized check signer) The payee listed is untraceable. I have contacted information, the police (where I reside as well as where this firm supposedly does business) as well as extensive internet searches (and reverse lookup). My former employer was able to have the money debited from the payees account and refunded to them and they informed me that if I am able to prove I did not benefit from this transaction they will reverse their decision on the severance pay and unemployment benefits. I have the name of the bank where the money went but they are unable to release any information on the account holder due to privacy laws.
I cannot afford a lawyer to help investigate this, I have spoken to a dozen or so attorneys and asked for them to take it on a contingency basis but they are "at capacity" for contingency cases. This entire situation is so mind numbing to me. Anyone who knows me is baffled by this accusation. I have been framed by someone or just randomly hit by a shady operation. This transaction took place one month before my termination. I worked at my last job for 3 years and have nothing but stellar remarks from each member on the management team as well as the executive team. I know they don't really think I am behind this (especially for a mere $300!) but legally this is what they are required to do in light of the "evidence".
I sincerely appreciate any thoughts/advice on what step I can take next to try and figure out WHO DID benefit from this lousy $300 transfer. I am deeply disturbed by this and would like to make sure it doesn't continue happening to other innocent people in the world.
Response by poster: It is mind-boggling to say the least. It has caused me numerous sleepless nights and a financial headache beyond belief.
I was told by the Controller of my former company that the transfer was called in to the bank over the phone and that my name was used to authorize this. They gave the routing number and checking account number of which to draw the funds from. This account information is printed on every single payable check that goes out - which could be a reimbursement made to an employee or a payment to any vendor in the system.
If they did somehow fall for a scam like that I don't understand how my name made it on to the form instead of the company name. I have spoken with the bank my former employer uses and asked how this was authorized as I am not a signer and they said wire transfers are not subject to the signing process as physical checks are. (and this is coming from Bank of America, not some credit union or small local bank). Then the way they are caught is during the account holders monthly reconciliation process, as in my case.
I am shocked that my former employer doesn't want to get to the bottom of this to make sure it doesn't happen to them again, or to penalize the appropriate person(s) responsible for this. They are not pursuing any investigation, leaving that up to me if I want the severance pay.
posted by dbk at 7:20 PM on October 20, 2006
I was told by the Controller of my former company that the transfer was called in to the bank over the phone and that my name was used to authorize this. They gave the routing number and checking account number of which to draw the funds from. This account information is printed on every single payable check that goes out - which could be a reimbursement made to an employee or a payment to any vendor in the system.
If they did somehow fall for a scam like that I don't understand how my name made it on to the form instead of the company name. I have spoken with the bank my former employer uses and asked how this was authorized as I am not a signer and they said wire transfers are not subject to the signing process as physical checks are. (and this is coming from Bank of America, not some credit union or small local bank). Then the way they are caught is during the account holders monthly reconciliation process, as in my case.
I am shocked that my former employer doesn't want to get to the bottom of this to make sure it doesn't happen to them again, or to penalize the appropriate person(s) responsible for this. They are not pursuing any investigation, leaving that up to me if I want the severance pay.
posted by dbk at 7:20 PM on October 20, 2006
perhaps the only thing you can do is make this public information ... right now, your honesty has been questioned and it's very unlikely you would get a recomendation from these people
you have nothing to lose and they're not going to look good to their bosses or the public
posted by pyramid termite at 7:22 PM on October 20, 2006
you have nothing to lose and they're not going to look good to their bosses or the public
posted by pyramid termite at 7:22 PM on October 20, 2006
Indeed, there seem to be a few possible explanations:
A) scammer as above. Your accounting department paid a phony bill. Where's the invoice? An electronic scan of a wire transfer is the bill payment, but what caused the bill to be paid?
B) Your employer is just making it up. They decided they don't want to pay you any severance, and are making up a cause to fire you.
If you believe that your relations with the company are really amiable, and they aren't out to screw you, you can proceed in court. Once a case is filed against the fraudster, you can serve subpoenas on the receiving bank and find out whatever they know about the account holder, which should be sufficient to prove to the company that it ain't you.
If you believe your relations with the company aren't amiable, you can't do much. They're under no obligation to pay you severance. You can fight them for unemployment pay, which will come when you file for it and the company objects, saying you were fired for cause.
On preview: wire transfers called in over the phone require (minimum) a signed form to be faxed to the bank. No bank will transfer funds out of an account based solely on a phone call!
posted by jellicle at 7:24 PM on October 20, 2006
A) scammer as above. Your accounting department paid a phony bill. Where's the invoice? An electronic scan of a wire transfer is the bill payment, but what caused the bill to be paid?
B) Your employer is just making it up. They decided they don't want to pay you any severance, and are making up a cause to fire you.
If you believe that your relations with the company are really amiable, and they aren't out to screw you, you can proceed in court. Once a case is filed against the fraudster, you can serve subpoenas on the receiving bank and find out whatever they know about the account holder, which should be sufficient to prove to the company that it ain't you.
If you believe your relations with the company aren't amiable, you can't do much. They're under no obligation to pay you severance. You can fight them for unemployment pay, which will come when you file for it and the company objects, saying you were fired for cause.
On preview: wire transfers called in over the phone require (minimum) a signed form to be faxed to the bank. No bank will transfer funds out of an account based solely on a phone call!
posted by jellicle at 7:24 PM on October 20, 2006
You should contact the FBI about this. Wire fraud that crosses state lines is their jurisdiction.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 7:27 PM on October 20, 2006
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 7:27 PM on October 20, 2006
A well-known scam is to randomly pick medium-sized companies out of the phone book and send them invoices for amounts just under the likely threshold for asking questions. Could your steallar-sounding accounting department have fallen for this?
If you read more carefully, you can see that even though he isn't authorized, he is still listed somehow as having authorized the transaction. He is clearly being framed.
The behavior of your company is pretty strange as well, why would they risk a lawsuit over $300? And more to the point, why would someone inside the company want to try to frame someone in order to steal $300?
Was this a wire-transfer through Western Union? Or through ACH? Is there some document that has a signature on it? If so, it should be easy to find that piece of paper and compare signatures. Usually you need signatures for things like this, but recently contract law was changed to allow "clicking OK" to count as an agreement. In your other ask you mention ordering something for your company. How did you pay for that?
posted by delmoi at 7:33 PM on October 20, 2006
If you read more carefully, you can see that even though he isn't authorized, he is still listed somehow as having authorized the transaction. He is clearly being framed.
The behavior of your company is pretty strange as well, why would they risk a lawsuit over $300? And more to the point, why would someone inside the company want to try to frame someone in order to steal $300?
Was this a wire-transfer through Western Union? Or through ACH? Is there some document that has a signature on it? If so, it should be easy to find that piece of paper and compare signatures. Usually you need signatures for things like this, but recently contract law was changed to allow "clicking OK" to count as an agreement. In your other ask you mention ordering something for your company. How did you pay for that?
posted by delmoi at 7:33 PM on October 20, 2006
You should contact the FBI about this. Wire fraud that crosses state lines is their jurisdiction.
I doubt the FBI would roll out of bed over $300, especially in a case where no one wants to press charges.
posted by delmoi at 7:33 PM on October 20, 2006
I doubt the FBI would roll out of bed over $300, especially in a case where no one wants to press charges.
posted by delmoi at 7:33 PM on October 20, 2006
Also, you can dispute why you were fired with the unemployment board If they deny unemployment benefits, and you say you deserve them, then the unemployment agency will hold a hearing and you'll get a chance to plead your case then, although I'm not sure how that would work.
posted by delmoi at 7:35 PM on October 20, 2006
posted by delmoi at 7:35 PM on October 20, 2006
I might just be overly cynical, but your company stands to lose a lot of money if they have to pay your severance package. At best, this could explain why they're less than eager to help you clear your name. At worst, it might suggest that they actually orchestrated the fraud.
It's all about what you can prove.
Perhaps you could find some way to determine who's bank account the money went into? Legal or otherwise, there's always a way. Seems like that's your smoking gun.
posted by sportbucket at 7:37 PM on October 20, 2006
It's all about what you can prove.
Perhaps you could find some way to determine who's bank account the money went into? Legal or otherwise, there's always a way. Seems like that's your smoking gun.
posted by sportbucket at 7:37 PM on October 20, 2006
Response by poster: And more to the point, why would someone inside the company want to try to frame someone in order to steal $300?
One of my thoughts is that the employee who is in charge of Accounts Payable did this in order to pay one of her personal debts. She is somewhat new to the company and I've always had a bad gut feeling about her. She talks openly with others about her large amount of debt and how she's been conned into situations of buying into timeshares and other random (possibly) pyramid type organizations. I am wondering if this firm is possibly a collection agency that she paid over the phone by using the company account info and my name for some reason, maybe saying I was a friend or relative paying on her behalf. I've come up with some pretty elaborate scenarios in my head trying to fathom who and how this came to be.
Was this a wire-transfer through Western Union? Or through ACH?
ACH.
Is there some document that has a signature on it? If so, it should be easy to find that piece of paper and compare signatures.
There are no signatures, simply an electronic form that is an ACH wire transfer.
In your other ask you mention ordering something for your company. How did you pay for that?
While employed, I was one of 5 employees that used a corporate American Express. The monthly balace was paid by physical check thru the accounting department. I typically spent an average of $40,000/MONTH on this account and was praised for my attention to detail and adhering to budgets as well as keeping a pristine paper/receipt trail.
Perhaps you could find some way to determine who's bank account the money went into? Legal or otherwise, there's always a way.
Yes, finding the way is the ticket I'm looking for.
posted by dbk at 7:53 PM on October 20, 2006
One of my thoughts is that the employee who is in charge of Accounts Payable did this in order to pay one of her personal debts. She is somewhat new to the company and I've always had a bad gut feeling about her. She talks openly with others about her large amount of debt and how she's been conned into situations of buying into timeshares and other random (possibly) pyramid type organizations. I am wondering if this firm is possibly a collection agency that she paid over the phone by using the company account info and my name for some reason, maybe saying I was a friend or relative paying on her behalf. I've come up with some pretty elaborate scenarios in my head trying to fathom who and how this came to be.
Was this a wire-transfer through Western Union? Or through ACH?
ACH.
Is there some document that has a signature on it? If so, it should be easy to find that piece of paper and compare signatures.
There are no signatures, simply an electronic form that is an ACH wire transfer.
In your other ask you mention ordering something for your company. How did you pay for that?
While employed, I was one of 5 employees that used a corporate American Express. The monthly balace was paid by physical check thru the accounting department. I typically spent an average of $40,000/MONTH on this account and was praised for my attention to detail and adhering to budgets as well as keeping a pristine paper/receipt trail.
Perhaps you could find some way to determine who's bank account the money went into? Legal or otherwise, there's always a way.
Yes, finding the way is the ticket I'm looking for.
posted by dbk at 7:53 PM on October 20, 2006
I agree with Den Beste, call the FBI, then call a lawyer, not necessarily in that order.
posted by caddis at 8:00 PM on October 20, 2006
posted by caddis at 8:00 PM on October 20, 2006
There's no location in your profile, but if you have a law school near you, call and ask if they have a student law clinic that provides free legal services.
posted by gokart4xmas at 9:06 PM on October 20, 2006
posted by gokart4xmas at 9:06 PM on October 20, 2006
caddis: she already spoke with many lawyers to try to find out if any would take it on contingent, and none would. She says she can't afford a lawyer.
If I were you I would try to explain to your company that they have a serious interest in finding out why this happened. I mean, they potentially have a theif and a con-artist working for them, and they don't care? But they're willing to take it out on you, just because?
You said they were in the middle of an acquisition, well talk to the people at company interested in acquiring them. Based on your description, I sure as hell would have second thoughts about getting involved with such a company if they're not even interested in finding out what happened to the money.
I mean you spent $40k of their money a month, and nothing went wrong, yet $300 goes missing from an account you don't even have access too? That just doesn't make sense.
If this company doesn't investigate, they're not (IMO) doing due diligence.
You've got no reason not to derail their acquisition if they're treating you like this.
posted by delmoi at 9:13 PM on October 20, 2006
If I were you I would try to explain to your company that they have a serious interest in finding out why this happened. I mean, they potentially have a theif and a con-artist working for them, and they don't care? But they're willing to take it out on you, just because?
You said they were in the middle of an acquisition, well talk to the people at company interested in acquiring them. Based on your description, I sure as hell would have second thoughts about getting involved with such a company if they're not even interested in finding out what happened to the money.
I mean you spent $40k of their money a month, and nothing went wrong, yet $300 goes missing from an account you don't even have access too? That just doesn't make sense.
If this company doesn't investigate, they're not (IMO) doing due diligence.
You've got no reason not to derail their acquisition if they're treating you like this.
posted by delmoi at 9:13 PM on October 20, 2006
Response by poster: There's no location in your profile, but if you have a law school near you, call and ask if they have a student law clinic that provides free legal services.
There are two schools, University of Washington and Seattle University - I will contact them Monday a.m. Thanks gokart!
I did file for unemployment and have not yet received notice of my former employer challenging my claim. I have only received response forms from the state requesting my explanation. I have spoken to them on the phone as well and they continue to instruct me to follow the instructions I receive in the mail.
So -- no benefits have been paid as of yet and no official decision made as to my eligibility (or challenge)... this has lead to my inquiries with the unemployment law group http://www.unemploymentlawproject.org/ulp_question_thanks.html
they cannot help me until I have officially been denied benefits, at which point I file an appeal. I tried to file an appeal but it was rejected due to not having the "denial" status. I was just getting impatient and aggravated that this whole mess is strung out over this long. It's been 7 weeks now.
You said they were in the middle of an acquisition, well talk to the people at company interested in acquiring them. Based on your description, I sure as hell would have second thoughts about getting involved with such a company if they're not even interested in finding out what happened to the money.
Unfortunately only the board of directors is (was) privvy to this information. I only know the code names of the companies who were coming in to have these acquistion talks. In the last year they've turned this tiny software company into a monster. Annual revenue is now at 120 million. The entire management team has grown into a big tangled web of "friends" so they can all cash out together. They are not concerned about me and a piddly $300 transaction. Total employees is now approx 150 (in 3 locations). I was employee #12 3 years ago and it was once a close knit group of hardworking individuals. Oh, how times 'a change.
I really appreciate all the comments thus far. It has been a tremendous help just to get this out there and have any and all feedback I can get.
posted by dbk at 10:06 PM on October 20, 2006
There are two schools, University of Washington and Seattle University - I will contact them Monday a.m. Thanks gokart!
I did file for unemployment and have not yet received notice of my former employer challenging my claim. I have only received response forms from the state requesting my explanation. I have spoken to them on the phone as well and they continue to instruct me to follow the instructions I receive in the mail.
So -- no benefits have been paid as of yet and no official decision made as to my eligibility (or challenge)... this has lead to my inquiries with the unemployment law group http://www.unemploymentlawproject.org/ulp_question_thanks.html
they cannot help me until I have officially been denied benefits, at which point I file an appeal. I tried to file an appeal but it was rejected due to not having the "denial" status. I was just getting impatient and aggravated that this whole mess is strung out over this long. It's been 7 weeks now.
You said they were in the middle of an acquisition, well talk to the people at company interested in acquiring them. Based on your description, I sure as hell would have second thoughts about getting involved with such a company if they're not even interested in finding out what happened to the money.
Unfortunately only the board of directors is (was) privvy to this information. I only know the code names of the companies who were coming in to have these acquistion talks. In the last year they've turned this tiny software company into a monster. Annual revenue is now at 120 million. The entire management team has grown into a big tangled web of "friends" so they can all cash out together. They are not concerned about me and a piddly $300 transaction. Total employees is now approx 150 (in 3 locations). I was employee #12 3 years ago and it was once a close knit group of hardworking individuals. Oh, how times 'a change.
I really appreciate all the comments thus far. It has been a tremendous help just to get this out there and have any and all feedback I can get.
posted by dbk at 10:06 PM on October 20, 2006
>if I am able to prove I did not benefit from this transaction they will reverse their decision on the severance pay
But whether it's deliberate or not, you should sue the company for the severance pay anyway. It's owed to you, and they have no proof that you're ineligible to get it.
To reduce this situation to its simplest possible terms: "Someone owes me money and they haven't paid me. They have a lame excuse." So you do what anyone else would do.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 11:12 PM on October 20, 2006
- nobody benefited from it; they got their money back
- that's asking you to prove a negative, which is a logical impossibility
But whether it's deliberate or not, you should sue the company for the severance pay anyway. It's owed to you, and they have no proof that you're ineligible to get it.
To reduce this situation to its simplest possible terms: "Someone owes me money and they haven't paid me. They have a lame excuse." So you do what anyone else would do.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 11:12 PM on October 20, 2006
Response by poster: So you do what anyone else would do.
But getting a lawyer to represent me in this lawsuit on a contingency basis has been unsuccessful. I've spent hours of my life explaining to legal assistants and attorneys repeatedly... this entire situation. Then emailing documents to them. (I also have an outstanding bonus that equals 15% of my old salary that was never paid to me - I have a signed agreement from the COO and it was another reason for my departure - they are trying to say they eliminated that bonus plan) I waited patiently for 6 months for the meetings between HR, myself and my boss to get it all "straightened out" and that never happened. Instead the new management method kicked in - pure lack of management. We've only had a total of 9 female employees in the last year (out of 100+ employees) and 5 of those 9 have been "let go".... they are lazy and are choosing to sit back and wait for the big acquisition/cash out.
posted by dbk at 11:24 PM on October 20, 2006
But getting a lawyer to represent me in this lawsuit on a contingency basis has been unsuccessful. I've spent hours of my life explaining to legal assistants and attorneys repeatedly... this entire situation. Then emailing documents to them. (I also have an outstanding bonus that equals 15% of my old salary that was never paid to me - I have a signed agreement from the COO and it was another reason for my departure - they are trying to say they eliminated that bonus plan) I waited patiently for 6 months for the meetings between HR, myself and my boss to get it all "straightened out" and that never happened. Instead the new management method kicked in - pure lack of management. We've only had a total of 9 female employees in the last year (out of 100+ employees) and 5 of those 9 have been "let go".... they are lazy and are choosing to sit back and wait for the big acquisition/cash out.
posted by dbk at 11:24 PM on October 20, 2006
Think about the nature of severance pay. Despite popular opinion, it's not a company being nice to a valued employee they have to let go, it's a legal agreement. Severance contracts typically involve you waiving your right to sue them for wrongful termination, sexual harrassment, or a host of other reasons. They give you a package because they need leverage to get you to sign -- you wouldn't waive your rights without compensation.
They didn't fire you for bad performance, and after 3 years of employment there with good reviews, it would be hard for them to back up a claim that they did fire you for bad performance.
If I read your OP correctly, you didn't sign the severance agreement, right? Without your signature on that contract, you can still sue them for wrongful termination.
Think about it: there was a promise made, there were shenanigans you weren't involved in, and the promise has been renegged. Who benefits? The company. A clear case of "follow the money" to me.
While you may not be able to find a lawyer to work pro bono to track down the bank fraud, you may be able to get one to work on contingency for a wrongful termination suit. Or, a letter from the Legal Aid Society threatening such a suit might convince them to follow through on their original severance offer.
And if you're even *thinking* that this might be ethically questionable, just read your OP.
Oh, and I hope you learned not to leave important documents on your former desk. Rookie move there.
posted by nadise at 12:05 AM on October 21, 2006
They didn't fire you for bad performance, and after 3 years of employment there with good reviews, it would be hard for them to back up a claim that they did fire you for bad performance.
If I read your OP correctly, you didn't sign the severance agreement, right? Without your signature on that contract, you can still sue them for wrongful termination.
Think about it: there was a promise made, there were shenanigans you weren't involved in, and the promise has been renegged. Who benefits? The company. A clear case of "follow the money" to me.
While you may not be able to find a lawyer to work pro bono to track down the bank fraud, you may be able to get one to work on contingency for a wrongful termination suit. Or, a letter from the Legal Aid Society threatening such a suit might convince them to follow through on their original severance offer.
And if you're even *thinking* that this might be ethically questionable, just read your OP.
Oh, and I hope you learned not to leave important documents on your former desk. Rookie move there.
posted by nadise at 12:05 AM on October 21, 2006
that's asking you to prove a negative, which is a logical impossibility
It is not a logical impossibility to prove a negative any more then it is a logical impossibility to prove a double negative. What's difficult is proving existential qualifiers, or disproving universal qualifiers.
All she has to prove this is find out who really took the money.
posted by delmoi at 1:38 AM on October 21, 2006 [1 favorite]
It is not a logical impossibility to prove a negative any more then it is a logical impossibility to prove a double negative. What's difficult is proving existential qualifiers, or disproving universal qualifiers.
All she has to prove this is find out who really took the money.
posted by delmoi at 1:38 AM on October 21, 2006 [1 favorite]
er, thePlatform was purchased in june. Maybe it's youtube :P
posted by delmoi at 1:40 AM on October 21, 2006
posted by delmoi at 1:40 AM on October 21, 2006
>But getting a lawyer to represent me in this lawsuit on a contingency basis has been unsuccessful.
Situations like this can be resolved without going to court and huge legal expenses. You start by finding a lawyer who will write a scary letter. "I represent dbk, we're going to sue your pants off, etc etc yours sincerely, A Lawyer" That might cost as little as fifty bucks.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:28 AM on October 21, 2006
Situations like this can be resolved without going to court and huge legal expenses. You start by finding a lawyer who will write a scary letter. "I represent dbk, we're going to sue your pants off, etc etc yours sincerely, A Lawyer" That might cost as little as fifty bucks.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:28 AM on October 21, 2006
>It is not a logical impossibility to prove a negative any more then it is a logical impossibility to prove a double negative. What's difficult is proving existential qualifiers, or disproving universal qualifiers.
I have no idea what that means. You prove you're married with a marriage certificate. How do you prove you're not married?
>All she has to prove this is find out who really took the money.
It's thinking like that which has her upset and distracted and confused. The onus is not on her to track down the real culprits. There's some ludicrously circumstantial evidence against her and they're using it as an excuse not to pay her what they owe.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:42 AM on October 21, 2006
I have no idea what that means. You prove you're married with a marriage certificate. How do you prove you're not married?
>All she has to prove this is find out who really took the money.
It's thinking like that which has her upset and distracted and confused. The onus is not on her to track down the real culprits. There's some ludicrously circumstantial evidence against her and they're using it as an excuse not to pay her what they owe.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:42 AM on October 21, 2006
Small claims court. In many states, the amounts that can be collected there are substantial.... $10,000 in Tennessee, for instance.
If the amout they owe you is less than the small claims threshold in your state, it may be a good venue for you to resolve this.
The burden is on them to prove that you are not owned the money.
You represent yourself in small claims, usually, and sometimes the judgments are easily appealable, but if you prevail, it may be all they need to settle with you.
Usually, there is filing fee, and it takes several months, but I have used it to good effect several times.
posted by FauxScot at 5:42 AM on October 21, 2006
If the amout they owe you is less than the small claims threshold in your state, it may be a good venue for you to resolve this.
The burden is on them to prove that you are not owned the money.
You represent yourself in small claims, usually, and sometimes the judgments are easily appealable, but if you prevail, it may be all they need to settle with you.
Usually, there is filing fee, and it takes several months, but I have used it to good effect several times.
posted by FauxScot at 5:42 AM on October 21, 2006
You prove you're married with a marriage certificate.
You can also use it to prove you're not single. A negative.
posted by smackfu at 7:21 AM on October 21, 2006
You can also use it to prove you're not single. A negative.
posted by smackfu at 7:21 AM on October 21, 2006
disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, none of this constitutes legal advice, and I've not actually worked in the Real World™.
Frankly, the fact that you were allowed to spend upwards of $40,000 a month, and they're trying to deny you severance over $299, screams to me that your former employer is trying to screw you over. If you're not authorized to make wire transfers from that account, Bank of America is required to know that, and if this transaction did happen, the bank is completely at fault.
The burden is on them to prove that you are not owned the money.
Uh, no. You just have to prove that they owe you the money better than they can prove that you don't. If you can't show some evidence that they owe you the money, your case is probably going to be thrown out.
posted by oaf at 7:41 AM on October 21, 2006
Frankly, the fact that you were allowed to spend upwards of $40,000 a month, and they're trying to deny you severance over $299, screams to me that your former employer is trying to screw you over. If you're not authorized to make wire transfers from that account, Bank of America is required to know that, and if this transaction did happen, the bank is completely at fault.
The burden is on them to prove that you are not owned the money.
Uh, no. You just have to prove that they owe you the money better than they can prove that you don't. If you can't show some evidence that they owe you the money, your case is probably going to be thrown out.
posted by oaf at 7:41 AM on October 21, 2006
Response by poster: If I read your OP correctly, you didn't sign the severance agreement, right? Without your signature on that contract, you can still sue them for wrongful termination.
I didn't sign the agreement and I have no personal moral issues with filing a lawsuit. It's not the money I'm after, I want to clear my name! I also don't want to give in to these power-mongers.
Employees in Washington are hired "at will" and can be terminated at any time with no reason/explanation. I always thought it was only the first 90 days of employment that were at will, until looking into it further.
Oh, and I hope you learned not to leave important documents on your former desk. Rookie move there.
Lesson learned! Total rookie move indeed. I never even had a chance to look at the agreement. I was riding my bike that day and I had no reason to think that this type of situation would arise.
posted by dbk at 8:01 AM on October 21, 2006
I didn't sign the agreement and I have no personal moral issues with filing a lawsuit. It's not the money I'm after, I want to clear my name! I also don't want to give in to these power-mongers.
Employees in Washington are hired "at will" and can be terminated at any time with no reason/explanation. I always thought it was only the first 90 days of employment that were at will, until looking into it further.
Oh, and I hope you learned not to leave important documents on your former desk. Rookie move there.
Lesson learned! Total rookie move indeed. I never even had a chance to look at the agreement. I was riding my bike that day and I had no reason to think that this type of situation would arise.
posted by dbk at 8:01 AM on October 21, 2006
Response by poster: Uh, no. You just have to prove that they owe you the money better than they can prove that you don't. If you can't show some evidence that they owe you the money, your case is probably going to be thrown out.
I do have a signed document stating the agreement of a 15% personal performance bonus which was due to be paid in March. (I never got a penny of that)
I also have emails from the Controller and CEO stating they will reverse the decision of severance pay if I can prove this whole mess has nothing to do w/me. So I don't have the original separation agreement but I'm hoping what I do have will suffice.
posted by dbk at 8:04 AM on October 21, 2006
I do have a signed document stating the agreement of a 15% personal performance bonus which was due to be paid in March. (I never got a penny of that)
I also have emails from the Controller and CEO stating they will reverse the decision of severance pay if I can prove this whole mess has nothing to do w/me. So I don't have the original separation agreement but I'm hoping what I do have will suffice.
posted by dbk at 8:04 AM on October 21, 2006
They are trying to rip you off, or they are using an unfortunate little scam that someone pulled to rip you off. Pay a lawyer to write a letter for you, like Ambrose Chapel said.
When you say you left the separation agreement on your desk and then came back for it, do you still have a copy of the separation agreement?
Anyway, some funny business going on for sure. Simply put, if you are not authorized to make wire payments then the bank should never have put through a wire on your (supposed) say-so. Furthermore saying the payee on the wire is untracable is ridiculous, banks are not check cashing joints. They have a legal address, contact info and signature cards for the account of the payee at the very least and they don't want people commiting fraud on their watch. If you have a scan of the wire document call the security office of the bank the money was wired to and ask them about it, document it.
What with the additional bonus being missing as well, upon thinking about it, I really suggest you find a way to retain a lawyer and get a new job right away, your former company is going to stall the hell out of you on this and once they are acquired by another company it's going to get even worse. Borrow some money if you can, but get a lawyer who specializes in this kind of thing, otherwise I think you are going to get screwed. Sorry.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:33 AM on October 21, 2006
When you say you left the separation agreement on your desk and then came back for it, do you still have a copy of the separation agreement?
Anyway, some funny business going on for sure. Simply put, if you are not authorized to make wire payments then the bank should never have put through a wire on your (supposed) say-so. Furthermore saying the payee on the wire is untracable is ridiculous, banks are not check cashing joints. They have a legal address, contact info and signature cards for the account of the payee at the very least and they don't want people commiting fraud on their watch. If you have a scan of the wire document call the security office of the bank the money was wired to and ask them about it, document it.
What with the additional bonus being missing as well, upon thinking about it, I really suggest you find a way to retain a lawyer and get a new job right away, your former company is going to stall the hell out of you on this and once they are acquired by another company it's going to get even worse. Borrow some money if you can, but get a lawyer who specializes in this kind of thing, otherwise I think you are going to get screwed. Sorry.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:33 AM on October 21, 2006
I should summarize a little better here:
Someone is pulling some crap on you, but I really think you need a lawyer to help you deal with things like being in touch with the banks and outlining the responsibilities of the various parties and so on. A stern letter from a lawyer might convince them that they can't mess around with you any longer and to kick loose the severance package, so start there and good luck. So many corporations and their management and HR are loathsome swine, give 'em hell..
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:40 AM on October 21, 2006
Someone is pulling some crap on you, but I really think you need a lawyer to help you deal with things like being in touch with the banks and outlining the responsibilities of the various parties and so on. A stern letter from a lawyer might convince them that they can't mess around with you any longer and to kick loose the severance package, so start there and good luck. So many corporations and their management and HR are loathsome swine, give 'em hell..
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:40 AM on October 21, 2006
dbk, you absolutely need a lawyer. Not being able to afford one is a relatively big problem but does not end the inquiry. You said you're calling the Seattle-area law schools ASAP on Monday, and that's a good start. Here are a couple other options.
First, target employment lawyers, since that's the specialty you're looking for. I don't know how you've searched so far, but if you're just looking in the phone book, there are better ways. Check out the National Employment Law Association and see if there are any attorneys in the Seattle area that you've missed.
Second, call the local bar associations (Washington State, King County) and ask not only for employment lawyers, but also for pro bono resources. If you truly can't even afford to pay a retainer or the initial "mean letter" fee, then it sounds like you might make a good pro bono case.
posted by rkent at 9:50 AM on October 21, 2006
First, target employment lawyers, since that's the specialty you're looking for. I don't know how you've searched so far, but if you're just looking in the phone book, there are better ways. Check out the National Employment Law Association and see if there are any attorneys in the Seattle area that you've missed.
Second, call the local bar associations (Washington State, King County) and ask not only for employment lawyers, but also for pro bono resources. If you truly can't even afford to pay a retainer or the initial "mean letter" fee, then it sounds like you might make a good pro bono case.
posted by rkent at 9:50 AM on October 21, 2006
Response by poster: This is PopCap we're talking about, right?
Yes, PopCap is my former employer.
posted by dbk at 3:24 PM on October 21, 2006
Yes, PopCap is my former employer.
posted by dbk at 3:24 PM on October 21, 2006
>You prove you're married with a marriage certificate.
>You can also use it to prove you're not single. A negative.
What nonsense. Here's the point. If the purloined money went to J Arthur Random of Somewhere City, Arizona, the prosecution would have to go through phone logs, emails, service records etc to prove that there was a connection between the accused and that person. If they find one, there's their case.
What's the procedure for establishing that there isn't a connection between two people? List every phone call the accused ever made in their entire life and show that none of them was to the other guy?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 4:43 PM on October 21, 2006
>You can also use it to prove you're not single. A negative.
What nonsense. Here's the point. If the purloined money went to J Arthur Random of Somewhere City, Arizona, the prosecution would have to go through phone logs, emails, service records etc to prove that there was a connection between the accused and that person. If they find one, there's their case.
What's the procedure for establishing that there isn't a connection between two people? List every phone call the accused ever made in their entire life and show that none of them was to the other guy?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 4:43 PM on October 21, 2006
I do have a signed document stating the agreement of a 15% personal performance bonus which was due to be paid in March. (I never got a penny of that)
I also have emails from the Controller and CEO stating they will reverse the decision of severance pay if I can prove this whole mess has nothing to do w/me. So I don't have the original separation agreement but I'm hoping what I do have will suffice.
The fact that you don't have possession of the document isn't really that big of a problem, unless someone wants to commit a crime by destroying the contract, you can supena the records if you do go to court. It may be that they do decide to destroy the docs, but there would be a lot of records indicating they existed.
posted by delmoi at 7:57 PM on October 21, 2006
I also have emails from the Controller and CEO stating they will reverse the decision of severance pay if I can prove this whole mess has nothing to do w/me. So I don't have the original separation agreement but I'm hoping what I do have will suffice.
The fact that you don't have possession of the document isn't really that big of a problem, unless someone wants to commit a crime by destroying the contract, you can supena the records if you do go to court. It may be that they do decide to destroy the docs, but there would be a lot of records indicating they existed.
posted by delmoi at 7:57 PM on October 21, 2006
What's the procedure for establishing that there isn't a connection between two people? List every phone call the accused ever made in their entire life and show that none of them was to the other guy?
Right, but you're confusing "negative" with "existential".
posted by delmoi at 7:59 PM on October 21, 2006
Right, but you're confusing "negative" with "existential".
posted by delmoi at 7:59 PM on October 21, 2006
Sorry, I responded to this comment without reading this one.
I have no idea what that means. You prove you're married with a marriage certificate. How do you prove you're not married?
Look, you're talking about "proving a negative" is obviously meant to imply logic. There are lots of diffrent kinds of logic, most common is propositional logic (what most people use). In propositional logic all true statements can be restated as false statements, and all positive statements can be restated as negative statements ("the sky is green") ("the sky is not green"). If you prove one, you prove disprove the other. If you disprove that the sky is green, you've just proved a negative.
Now, what you're actually talking about when you say "you can't prove a negative" is first-order logic. In first-order logic we deal with things that either exist or don't exist. Or things that are universal. I don't want to get into all of it right now, but what you really mean when you say "you can't disprove a negative" is actually a statement about negative existential statements, or positive universal statements.
To simply say "you can't disprove a negative" is wrong in logic.
Anyway, total derail.
posted by delmoi at 8:10 PM on October 21, 2006
I have no idea what that means. You prove you're married with a marriage certificate. How do you prove you're not married?
Look, you're talking about "proving a negative" is obviously meant to imply logic. There are lots of diffrent kinds of logic, most common is propositional logic (what most people use). In propositional logic all true statements can be restated as false statements, and all positive statements can be restated as negative statements ("the sky is green") ("the sky is not green"). If you prove one, you prove disprove the other. If you disprove that the sky is green, you've just proved a negative.
Now, what you're actually talking about when you say "you can't prove a negative" is first-order logic. In first-order logic we deal with things that either exist or don't exist. Or things that are universal. I don't want to get into all of it right now, but what you really mean when you say "you can't disprove a negative" is actually a statement about negative existential statements, or positive universal statements.
To simply say "you can't disprove a negative" is wrong in logic.
Anyway, total derail.
posted by delmoi at 8:10 PM on October 21, 2006
Actually my examples should be "the sky is green" and "the sky is not not green"
posted by delmoi at 8:19 PM on October 21, 2006
posted by delmoi at 8:19 PM on October 21, 2006
I don't understand what anyone is claiming you need a lawyer to sue FOR. Severance isn't a requirement. Their stated reason of this $299 baloney is no more or less valid than "we rescinded the offer because we don't like your hair." More likely, you didn't strike while the iron was hot, they thought about it and decided they had no need for the legal protections your signature on the sev agreement would get them and decided not to pay for them.
Or they're mad bonkers and this $299 is real, but you can't talk to a psycho like a normal human being. Quit fucking around with this "clear your name" nonsense. If you were really libeled/slandered then you can pursue that (if you have the money) but getting involved in playing jr detective when they're not making an effort to pursue this thing is a waste of time. What are they going to do? Apologize? Take out an ad in a local newspaper saying "we were wrong, dbk is honest and awesome!"?
If you really do have an agreement for moneys that should have been paid you in March then that, on the other hand, you should definitely pursue. Call your local labor board. If they can't assist then file in small claims.
posted by phearlez at 10:30 AM on October 22, 2006
Or they're mad bonkers and this $299 is real, but you can't talk to a psycho like a normal human being. Quit fucking around with this "clear your name" nonsense. If you were really libeled/slandered then you can pursue that (if you have the money) but getting involved in playing jr detective when they're not making an effort to pursue this thing is a waste of time. What are they going to do? Apologize? Take out an ad in a local newspaper saying "we were wrong, dbk is honest and awesome!"?
If you really do have an agreement for moneys that should have been paid you in March then that, on the other hand, you should definitely pursue. Call your local labor board. If they can't assist then file in small claims.
posted by phearlez at 10:30 AM on October 22, 2006
phearlez: wrongful termination lawsuits are real, and they're also trying to deny her her unemployment...
posted by delmoi at 4:15 PM on October 22, 2006
posted by delmoi at 4:15 PM on October 22, 2006
As someone upthread suggested, it sounds like someone trying to pay off personal debt - AKA embezzlement.
Find a way to follow the money - chances are good there's another employee at the receiving end of this transaction. Your former company has not pursued this to the end of the story. I believe it is their responsibility to provide proof of your wrongdoing in order to deny you UI benefits at least. Instead of a lawyer, I'd hit the Labor Board in your area first. You may be able to get to them to compel your former employer to support the claims against you as well as provide documents you will be able to review. Your attention to detail will be useful in this situation. Good luck.
posted by Carnage Asada at 2:37 PM on October 25, 2006
Find a way to follow the money - chances are good there's another employee at the receiving end of this transaction. Your former company has not pursued this to the end of the story. I believe it is their responsibility to provide proof of your wrongdoing in order to deny you UI benefits at least. Instead of a lawyer, I'd hit the Labor Board in your area first. You may be able to get to them to compel your former employer to support the claims against you as well as provide documents you will be able to review. Your attention to detail will be useful in this situation. Good luck.
posted by Carnage Asada at 2:37 PM on October 25, 2006
Wrongful termination claims on Federal grounds are limited to "race, gender, national origin, disability, religion or age" where the age is over 40. Some states add sexual preference and some other things but for the most part people are working without contract and are at-will employees. Thus, they can fire her for whatever hairbrained I-don't-like-her-shoes reason they want.
This puts aside the fact that we are not addressing the issue of her employment, only her severance. Unless you have a written promise of severance it is at the discretion of an employer.
Further, they are not trying to deny her unemployment because they have no ability to deny her unemployment. They are free to respond to the unemployment office with whatever fanciful horseshit they please but it is not their decision to make. She should certainly dispute that when the time comes and may want to send a written notice contesting this whacko incident to bolster that position.
She can certainly demand a written apology for the accusation but trying to do detective work on their behalf is foolish.
posted by phearlez at 12:22 PM on October 26, 2006
This puts aside the fact that we are not addressing the issue of her employment, only her severance. Unless you have a written promise of severance it is at the discretion of an employer.
Further, they are not trying to deny her unemployment because they have no ability to deny her unemployment. They are free to respond to the unemployment office with whatever fanciful horseshit they please but it is not their decision to make. She should certainly dispute that when the time comes and may want to send a written notice contesting this whacko incident to bolster that position.
She can certainly demand a written apology for the accusation but trying to do detective work on their behalf is foolish.
posted by phearlez at 12:22 PM on October 26, 2006
Response by poster: - Update -
I have secured an attorney who practices employment law. I was able to breathe a sigh of relief after my two hour meeting with her today.
I appreciate all of the comments/insights from everyone on Me-Fi.
posted by dbk at 5:05 PM on October 30, 2006
I have secured an attorney who practices employment law. I was able to breathe a sigh of relief after my two hour meeting with her today.
I appreciate all of the comments/insights from everyone on Me-Fi.
posted by dbk at 5:05 PM on October 30, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
I have absolutely no access to banking or accounting information and have never been an authorized check signer
So what is their issue then? If you're not authorized to spend their money, wouldn't someone in the company who is authorized have to approve the payment? Wouldn't accounting have a record of the payment, where it came from, who authorized it, and why it was sent?
Are things so loose that if I sent your company a bill with your name (or the name of any random employee) as the "authorizing party" they would simply pay it without checking with you first?
A well-known scam is to randomly pick medium-sized companies out of the phone book and send them invoices for amounts just under the likely threshhold for asking questions. Could your steallar-sounding accounting department have fallen for this?
Frankly, that they're after you for this is a bit mind-boggling.
posted by maxwelton at 7:07 PM on October 20, 2006