Help me stop my computer from locking up and/or rebooting!

October 18, 2006 3:49 PM

My computer keeps locking up and/or rebooting! Help me find the problem.

The System.

* AMD Athlon64 x2 4600 operating at 2.6Ghz with a 512k Cache.

* Motherboard: ASUS M2N32-SLi Deluxe.

* Big cool case with lots of room inside (so overheating shouldn't be an issue) with an internal 430watt power supply.

* Western Digital 320GB 7200rpm SATAII KS 16meg Cache.

* 2GB RAM

* Video Card: NVIDIA 7950-GT

* Running WinXP with SP2.

The Symptoms.

Simply put, the system has a habit of locking up at the spur of the moment or rebooting at the spur of the moment. Sometimes this will happen within minutes of the first power-up of the day. Somedays it will be hours until it occurs.

Rarely, it won't happen at all. Very rarely...

Other Pertinent Information.

Yes, I've got all the latest drivers installed.

Windows has been patched with all the latest critical updates.

I've done an anti-virus and spyware check and found nothing. My system is something of a fortress anyway, as far as that sort of thing is concerned.

I run a firewall, of course. I'm using the last, free version of Sygate (`cause I hate ZAP and can't find a better free firewall).

So far I've removed from startup any programs that don't need to be starting up. I plan to reinstall Windows (an over the top reinstallation only; it's a fresh install anyway so this should be quicker). But if that dosen't work then quite frankly I'll be at my wit's end.

My only other thought is that maybe the internal power supply isn't enough for the CPU and the video card, but I'm not technically minded enough to make a call on that. I'm hoping someone here is.

So, what seems to be the problem? Is it indeed my power supply or is it something else? Help! Thanks in advance!

posted by Effigy2000 to computers & internet (31 comments total)

If those are all the components in your case, then 430 watts should be enough to power everything.

Although you think that overheating shouldn't be an issue, the symptoms suggest that it still might be. I'd suggest opening up the case to check that all the fans are running properly, especially on the heatsink. The fan on the heatsink might be faulty, and failing at random times.
posted by Cog at 4:01 PM on October 18, 2006

Can you switch to onboard video, or a slower VGA card? That Geforce is a bit of a monster, so if the system is stable without it, I think a new PS would be in order.

I'd also run some stress tests (Prime95), maybe remove a stick of RAM, and scale back memory timings in the BIOS - I tend to associate PS issues with rebooting, while memory can cause reboots or freezes..
posted by unmake at 4:08 PM on October 18, 2006

I often hear about wierd hardware failures during the transition between seasons - caused by turning on the heat or turning on the AC.

If you're comfortable with fiddling around your case, perhaps disconnect & reconnect all the internal power cables. Maybe re-slot your RAM, unplug/replug your SATA cables, &c. (It might not be a bad idea to unplug and replug the power cable, too)
posted by porpoise at 4:19 PM on October 18, 2006

I think cog and unmake have some good thoughts.

I do not have a solution, but I am having the same problems (slighty different hardware although I am using an AMD dual chip) and can tell you what didn't work. I ended up doing a complete reinstall of windows and while it worked for a week, it has again begun freezing and rebooting about once a day. I have a quad video card that I suspected was the problem, but I could not confirm that. Unmake could be on to something.

The error messages I sometimes got from microsoft was that I had a driver conflict. I updated all drivers, but the only one I am using is really the video drivers. I removed my TV card thinking that was the problem, but to no avail. I ran a memory stress test multiple times without problem.

The only other suggestion I have is to track what software is running when the crash occurs. Maybe it is causing conflicts.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:25 PM on October 18, 2006

What kind of RAM? Have you updated your BIOS? Has it ever run stably for long periods? When it locks up and restarts, exactly what happens? Blue screen? Direct to black?

I put together an amd 3800+ x2 system 6 months ago that had similar problems. I tried running MemTest and it checked out fine, but eventually I figured out a way to reliably crash it, and from there I narrowed it down to a memory issue (as I recall, it happened much quicker with two DIMMs than with one). Updating the BIOS fixed the problem, the system has been solid ever since. I think the original BIOS was mis-detecting the RAM timings and setting them too agressively.
posted by Good Brain at 4:41 PM on October 18, 2006

My old computer used to freeze and reboot all the time, it ends up there were power spikes and I had to buy a UPS to get it working properly.
posted by PowerCat at 4:44 PM on October 18, 2006

Are you using a USB WiFi device? Specifically something like the Netgear WG111, they have a nasty habit of making Windows XP reboot for no good reason.
posted by quin at 4:46 PM on October 18, 2006

Speedfan might help you determine if it's heat related.

I would also suggest looking in the system logs (Computer Management>System Tools>Event Viewer) and see if there is any more information there. The system logs lots of stuff that doesn't cause a UI error message. See if there are any system or application errors that correspond with the timing of the hang/reboots.
posted by camcgee at 4:46 PM on October 18, 2006

Have you cleaned the dust out of your PC? It wouldn't the first time that a PC starts rebooting because heat builds up way too much in a dirty cabinet.
posted by Memo at 4:50 PM on October 18, 2006

First thing I would do is run memtest86+ for 24 hours. If that works, then it's probably Windows, not the hardware.

Asus probably has temperature monitoring software for windows. Install that, then run CPUBurn overnight to test heat issues. Run two copies since you have two cores.

I would also suggest popping and reseating any connectors and cards you can. Sometimes they can be poorly seated.

But IMHO, I think your PSU might be too small or faulty, despite what Cog says. There is no way to know besides replacing it and that's a bit of a chore.

Best of luck to you. These things can be difficult or impossible to diagnose sometimes. It's enough to make me stop building my own boxes.
posted by chairface at 5:13 PM on October 18, 2006

Thanks cog and unmake. I'll try those ideas when I get home this afternoon.

"What kind of RAM?"

KING-MAX DDR2 RAM, to be exact.

"Have you updated your BIOS?"

No. That might be worth a shot though, now that I come to think of it.

"Has it ever run stably for long periods?"

Usually no more than a day.

"When it locks up and restarts, exactly what happens? Blue screen? Direct to black?"

Straight to black mostly, though there has been one or two instances where it did a memory dump. That's been rare though.

"Are you using a USB WiFi device?"

I do have a Nintendo USB Wi-Fi adaptor plugged in for use with my Nintendo DS. Could that really be a cause, though?

"Speedfan might help you determine if it's heat related."

Thanks camcgee. I'll give that a shot tonight too.

"Have you cleaned the dust out of your PC?"

No need too. It's a brand new PC. Probably just over a month old now.

Thanks for all your advice so far, everyone. Keep it coming!
posted by Effigy2000 at 5:19 PM on October 18, 2006

Seconding the memtest86+ suggestion - and I'd do it early on in the process of elimination. The amount of times that app has helped me out is untrue.

Any chance any of the components could have been exposed to static?
posted by chrissyboy at 5:20 PM on October 18, 2006

Thirding the memtest86+

It could be a corrupt driver, I've had my computer slow to a crawl at boot up (maxed out CPU), and what I did was remove all the peripherals except monitor/keyboard/mouse and re-attached each USB, etc one at a time and then re-booted after each one and found that my firewire card for my scanner was the culprit, and re-installed it.

Also are you on an outlet w/ a fridge? Once my speakers were going POP several times a day and after a few months of denial my computer got wonky and after some Googling I realized the cycling of the compressor was affecting the power and switched outlets and the popping stopped and the computer ran better.
posted by JulianDay at 5:31 PM on October 18, 2006

Based on what you've already tested and not found problems with, it is highly likely that the problem is with the RAM. The seeming randomness of the reboots points to this because it is only when the active processes attempt to use the areas of the memory that are problematic that it happens.

If your motherboard supports dual channel and you have your RAM configured for dual channel, try putting in a single channel configuration. I had a Biostar board a while back that would crash all my resource intensive games when I had the RAM in dual channel. It would also throw tons of errors in memtest. Simply putting the RAM into single channel mode resolved all the problems. (Unfortunately I lost the benefits of dual channel.)

KING-MAX is a budget brand memory. The rest of your system seems to be top-end stuff. I would suggest using some high quality low latency RAM from tried and true brands like Corsair, Crucial or OCZ. That is if your budget can allow this.

Another thing you can try to find out if the problems are hardware or software related is running off a linux live CD. Play around in linux for a while and see if the symptoms appear. If not, it's probably a software issue.
posted by doomtop at 6:46 PM on October 18, 2006

When Windows comes back up, does it give you the "recovered from a serious error" message? If so, view details (or whatever) and see what it suggests is the problem.
posted by krisjohn at 6:53 PM on October 18, 2006

I do have a Nintendo USB Wi-Fi adaptor plugged in for use with my Nintendo DS. Could that really be a cause, though?

I can't speak to the Nintendo one specifically, but I work for an ISP that supports wireless routers. I know from experience that the drivers for the Netgear USB devices sometimes don't play nice with XP and will cause a reboot on startup. The simplest way to test for this is to unplug the USB device and work offline for a while. Ideally try to do the things that normally cause your PC to reboot. If you don't have any problems, it could be the USB. if it still reboots, then the WiFi adaptor is not your culprit.
posted by quin at 6:54 PM on October 18, 2006

I just want to be clear: Your reboots occur completely randomly? Does this happen any more often when your actually do something intensive such as trying to run a program? I ask because most power problems I've seen are directly related to drawing on that little extra bit of power from running something thus zapping the power supply and causing a reboot.
posted by jmd82 at 7:00 PM on October 18, 2006

The easiest way to diagnose these things is to have access to replacement hardware. You can install a freshly formatted drive to rule out software, and swap or disconnect components until you've isolated the faulty part.

If I had to guess, I'd go with the power supply, esp. if it came with your case and it's not a top end one.
posted by Manjusri at 7:20 PM on October 18, 2006

"Also are you on an outlet w/ a fridge? Once my speakers were going POP several times a day and after a few months of denial my computer got wonky and after some Googling I realized the cycling of the compressor was affecting the power and switched outlets and the popping stopped and the computer ran better."
posted by JulianDay at 11:31 AM AEST on October 19

Interestingly enough, I am. But these problems were happening before I plugged the fridge in. I might swap it around though, just to be on the safe side.

"I just want to be clear: Your reboots occur completely randomly? Does this happen any more often when your actually do something intensive such as trying to run a program? I ask because most power problems I've seen are directly related to drawing on that little extra bit of power from running something thus zapping the power supply and causing a reboot."
posted by jmd82 at 1:00 PM AEST on October 19

Perhaps not completely randomly. Mostly it seems to happen when I'm downloading something via Firefox or when I'm playing songs through Winamp. But then, I can play resource intensive games like Titan Quest or GalCiv2 for hours and there will not be a crash or reboot in sight. Still, I'm hoping that undertaking some of the suggestions made in this thread (such as trying out memtest, a Windows reinstall, a bios upgrade and, if need be, putting in a single channel configuration for my RAM). I'll let you know in this thread tomorrow how it goes.

"If I had to guess, I'd go with the power supply, esp. if it came with your case and it's not a top end one.
posted by Manjusri at 1:20 PM AEST on October 19

And, failing all of that, I plan on upgrading my power supply to a good 500watts on Saturday morning. It did come with the case (a Thermaltake one) and the shopkeep did suggest at the time that the power supply might not be enough to handle the video card and CPU (hence my suspicions up-thread) but I didn't believe him because it seemed like he just wanted more of my money.

But a few of you here think it might indeed be the power supply, so maybe he was right. At any rate, I have a few days before I spend more money on more power so hopefully eliminating some of the other possible causes thanks to the ever-helpful hive mind will help me set my mind at ease.

Very much appreciated all!
posted by Effigy2000 at 7:40 PM on October 18, 2006

Ram! Check the ram!

That's exactly the kind of symtoms bad ram causes. I just ordered a replacement stick after using memtest to verify that some of mine was bad.

I know this has been said, but... it seemed worth saying again.
posted by flaterik at 9:37 PM on October 18, 2006

Seconding (fourthing!?) the memtest86+ suggestion.

It sounds like a power supply issue, though. I had a similar stability issue about a year ago and it was the PSU, for certain. It ended up smoking my motherboard. (No huge loss, it was an ancient celeron.)

However, yours is new. Upgrade and/or test your PSU, pronto, or risk damaging components. 430 watts is pushing it for your config. I'd feel a lot more comfortable with something in the 500-650 watts and up range.

Also note that the vast majority of the PSU manufacturers severely understate the capabilities of their PSUs - and they usually try to get away with labelling their PSUs with the absolute peak wattage they can produce before having issues.

I can't tell if the Thermaltake in your last comment was the current PSU or the incoming upgrade. I've had good luck with Thermaltakes and they seem to be all that they advertise as, but all of that is moot if you're pushing your PSU to the edge of failure.
posted by loquacious at 9:47 PM on October 18, 2006

By all means, run MemTest86+, but your problems could still be memory related, even if you pass all the tests multiple times.

As I said above, it's happened to me. Actually, It's happened to me twice, I've had two different systems that had stability problems. Both past memtest, but memory related changes ended up curing the lockups.

BTW, if it helps at all, I found that looping this 1080p WMV clip once or twice would make my computer reboot, which made it a lot easier to experiment with fixes.

Good luck.
posted by Good Brain at 10:02 PM on October 18, 2006

I had a power-supply issue such as this and was happy to have correctly id'd it. My new supply didn't align too well though - I could only get two screws in *mopes*
posted by prodevel at 10:31 PM on October 18, 2006

Asus M2N32-SLI Deluxe stability problems (6 pages long)

One last possibility is that there's a problem with the onboard NIC - nvidia's network drivers can be problematic. If your board has an additional ethernet port provided by a non-nvidia chip, you could try using that instead, and maybe disabling the nvidia port.

Memory and PS are still more likely, IMO.
posted by unmake at 11:29 PM on October 18, 2006

I was having similar issues recently, and after trying a million things with no success, reseating my video card magically solved the problem.
posted by Burns Ave. at 11:32 PM on October 18, 2006

My current headless Ubuntu server is a Pentium III box that a friend of mine threw out because it kept rebooting randomly under Windows 98. It rebooted randomly while running Memtest86+, too, so we knew it wasn't a Windows issue. Reseating memory, AGP video and both PCI cards didn't fix it. Neither did swapping out the power supply.

It's been rock solid since I dismounted the CPU heatsink, cleaned off all the old thermal crud, replaced it with the thinnest of thin smears of thermal grease and put it all back together.

I actually used a bigger heatsink and put a resistor in series with the new CPU fan, so it runs absolutely whisper-quiet 24/7 in the front bedroom. The CPU generally runs about two degrees warmer than it used to with the old roaring fan. My thinking is that the old thermal crud was too thick and lumpy and was causing CPU hotspots.

Either that or one of the CPU socket contacts had a dust grain in it.
posted by flabdablet at 12:00 AM on October 19, 2006

I had a very similar issue and it turned out to be a bad IDE driver for the motherboard (DFI, not ASUS). The fix was to uncheck the IDE driver when installing the mobo drivers after a fresh install. After that, it worked fine! I discovered this by reading forums, so you might want to try that route.
posted by utsutsu at 7:02 AM on October 19, 2006

Very early this morning I let memcheck start doing its tests and by 7:30am when I lefy for work it had completed 8 passes and found no errors. I'm leaving it running while I'm at work and will see what it comes up with by the time I get home late tonight but at this early stage at least it dosen't appear to be memory related.

It's interesting that in a non-Windows environment it didn't reboot or crash etc. I plan on doing an over-the-top reinstall on Windows XP tonight and then I'll spend a few hours playing with the computer to see if it misbehaves. If it does I'll try updating the BIOS but I'll probably still buy a new PSU on Saturday morning.

Thanks again for all your help everyone!
posted by Effigy2000 at 3:54 PM on October 19, 2006

Just because memtest86+ doesn't throw any errors does not mean it is not memory related.

The only way you will know for sure is to completely replace the memory and run on only one stick of memory that you know for sure is good. (i.e. pulled from a stable system.)
posted by doomtop at 4:25 PM on October 19, 2006

Thermaltake is supposed to be a good brand. But I've had similar problems with their PS's bundled with cases. When diagnosing hardware problems by swapping parts, Fry's liberal return policy can really make them worth the markup you pay going to a storefront.
posted by Manjusri at 1:38 AM on October 20, 2006

Hi all

I just thought I'd let you know how my computer's running. Basically, it's running excellently. I bet you all want to know what the problem was, don't you? I'll be happy to tell you too, but first, some history.

As I mentioned up-thread, this machine is a brand new machine. Pretty much everything in it is brand new. The upgrade from a new machine was, in part, prompted after my old computer's hard drive started acting up. The drive was about 4 years old at that point so it was simply dying of old age, I think. The whole system itself was getting on a bit too. I decided to upgrade to the latest tech I could afford and I did, giving the old machine (with a new hard drive) to my long suffering girlfriend, to stop her kicking me off my computer so she could study when all I wanted to do was play Titan Quest and read Metafilter.

Now when I say "pretty much everything in it is brand new", there is an implied exception. The only thing I took over with me from my old machine was my hard drive (like I said, my old computer got a brand new drive). Before I installed the drive in my new machine, I asked this question of AskMe. I asked the question at work, because at the time I was sans internet access at home and the only place I could download the file was at work. The thing is, I asked it with not much time left in the day and with no responses instantly forthcoming, I just guessed what files I needed on the boot disk and went home.

At home, I installed Windows XP (an old copy which did not have SP2 slipstreamed in) and pressed F6 to install a 3rd party RAID driver. But during the installation process, Windows told me that the boot disk was missing some files it needed to install everything properly. It said I could continue but if I did there was a chance Windows could be unstable. I threw caution to the wind and went ahead with the installation anyway. Everything seemed to work fine so I paid the issue no mind.

The next day I got back to work and read the responses to my AskMe question. The advice, as always, was excellent. I needed to include on the boot disk some files I had not included. But as I said, everything seemed to work fine so I paid the issue no mind. To be honest, it was really just pure laziness on my part that I didn't go home that day with the proper boot-disk and reinstall the whole thing all over.

The next day I moved the hard drive into my new machine which is sans floppy drive. And soon after that the problems started. Naturally, because the drive had worked fine for the few short days before the move, I assumed the hardware in the new machine was somehow to blame. With the words of the shopkeeper telling me that the power supply may not be enough still ringing in my head, I forgot all about the warning Windows XP gave me as I had installed it.

So eventually I decided it just had to be the power supply and so I asked this question to query the hive mind and get its opinion. After reading through the responses in this post and trying a few things out, all things still seemed to point to the power supply. But before I go and spend more money on this machine, thought I, I'll reinstall Windows over the top of the old installation to see if that solves the problem. I started the reinstallation using a new copy of Windows XP I had bought, a version which had SP2 slipstreamed into the installation, a necessity following the upgrade given I had left the archaic floppy drive behind. I then left the house for a few hours to go do other things with my girlfriend.

A few hours later I returned expecting the process to be complete. Far from it, the setup process had instead seemingly stalled at the 'Installing Devices' stage of the installation. No matter how many devices I disconnected and no matter what I tried, every consecutive attempt at reinstalling WindowsXP would fail. So I nuked the partition and did a clean install using my new copy of WinXP which did not need the boot disk. The installation went perfectly and my computer has run like a well oiled machine ever since. As it should be.

So basically the reason my system kept crashing, I believe, was because the installation of Windows I had set up was unstable. It appears to have been a Windows problem all along. Though of course my laziness (and forgetfulness) was also partly to blame.

So thanks for all your help everyone. I really appreciate it; the efforts you went to were above the call and that's why I decided to let you all know what the problem was in this rather detailed comment. Hooray for AskMe! And hooray for a stable system!
posted by Effigy2000 at 5:39 PM on October 23, 2006