Help me fire someone.
October 4, 2006 4:43 AM Subscribe
Some advice on terminating an employee, please. There is much
I'm in a new position where I have a number of direct reports. One of my salaried employees does substandard work, shows no commitment (she leaves no later than 5:00, goofs off on the internet, and then has the gall to complain about deadlines), and doesn't take instruction well. I can explain exactly what needs to be done, at 9:00 in the morning, and at the end of the day what I get is half the job, and that half is done poorly. She is a writer, by he way.
Another thing is, this person deliberately sneaks out of the office every afternoon - the quickest way out is to walk right past my door, but she never does. She goes the long way, and I think it is so that I don't see her. Finally, I don't think she is properly reporting time off.
So - what do I do? A few specifics here - is it OK for me to ask HR to pull her time off records? And what is your advice for getting around the usual procedure of cooking up some 90-day probationary period and setting goals for the person, etc. I want her out. Now. She has been here since I got here, and is past the initial 90-day " trial" period. Also, how do I catalog her deficiencies - she's been turning work in on time, but as I said, it is unusable, and sometimes not complete. Since the work involves writing on arcane subject matter, it is not immediately apparent to non-experts that the work I'm getting is half-baked, sloppy, etc.
Oh, and what if someone (potential employer) comes asking for a recommendation? I can not in good conscience recommend this person for another writing job.
Thanks!
I'm in a new position where I have a number of direct reports. One of my salaried employees does substandard work, shows no commitment (she leaves no later than 5:00, goofs off on the internet, and then has the gall to complain about deadlines), and doesn't take instruction well. I can explain exactly what needs to be done, at 9:00 in the morning, and at the end of the day what I get is half the job, and that half is done poorly. She is a writer, by he way.
Another thing is, this person deliberately sneaks out of the office every afternoon - the quickest way out is to walk right past my door, but she never does. She goes the long way, and I think it is so that I don't see her. Finally, I don't think she is properly reporting time off.
So - what do I do? A few specifics here - is it OK for me to ask HR to pull her time off records? And what is your advice for getting around the usual procedure of cooking up some 90-day probationary period and setting goals for the person, etc. I want her out. Now. She has been here since I got here, and is past the initial 90-day " trial" period. Also, how do I catalog her deficiencies - she's been turning work in on time, but as I said, it is unusable, and sometimes not complete. Since the work involves writing on arcane subject matter, it is not immediately apparent to non-experts that the work I'm getting is half-baked, sloppy, etc.
Oh, and what if someone (potential employer) comes asking for a recommendation? I can not in good conscience recommend this person for another writing job.
Thanks!
Aside from that, what do you do with her substandard work? I would keep a file, along with response letters to each piece detailing why they are unusable.
posted by miss tea at 5:05 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by miss tea at 5:05 AM on October 4, 2006
I recommend that you meet with HR to find out exactly how they want you to proceed in a situation like this. You should certainly let them know that you believe that there may be some kind of fraudulent activity taking place related to time off. They should be able to support you in investigating this and with coaching you on how to best address the other performance gaps and attitude problems you have described.
Taking the wrong set of actions could put the company in danger. You would never want there to be any question as to why the termination actually took place.
That means documentation, documentation, documentation.
The safest way to deal with this (assuming you have decided to terminate) is to let this person paint themselves into a corner. Make sure that each problem is addressed, and be thorough about keeping records of what and when such conversations have taken place. By showing that you made every effort to help the employee work past their shortcomings, you will help to minimize downstream claims of wrongful termination, etc. Also, if the employee is terminated for misconduct or for chronic performance problems, etc., there is a chance that your organization will not be burdened with costs associated with this person’s unemployment claims.
As someone who currently works in the field of HR, my advice to you is to be careful, seek advice from the right internal resources, and be through when carrying out that advice.
posted by mockjovial at 5:28 AM on October 4, 2006
Taking the wrong set of actions could put the company in danger. You would never want there to be any question as to why the termination actually took place.
That means documentation, documentation, documentation.
The safest way to deal with this (assuming you have decided to terminate) is to let this person paint themselves into a corner. Make sure that each problem is addressed, and be thorough about keeping records of what and when such conversations have taken place. By showing that you made every effort to help the employee work past their shortcomings, you will help to minimize downstream claims of wrongful termination, etc. Also, if the employee is terminated for misconduct or for chronic performance problems, etc., there is a chance that your organization will not be burdened with costs associated with this person’s unemployment claims.
As someone who currently works in the field of HR, my advice to you is to be careful, seek advice from the right internal resources, and be through when carrying out that advice.
posted by mockjovial at 5:28 AM on October 4, 2006
ahem. Thorough.
posted by mockjovial at 5:29 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by mockjovial at 5:29 AM on October 4, 2006
Your company will probably have policy when it comes to references. More and more companies are erring on the side of caution and officially will only verify employment. If you fire her for incompetence, and she's stupid enough to use you as a referral, and your company allows or recommends actually giving your opinion, give it. Especially if you CYA with the documentation that those above have suggested.
posted by Plutor at 5:36 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by Plutor at 5:36 AM on October 4, 2006
Also, for references and recommendations: You are not obligated to serve as a reference.
If someone calls asking to verify your soon to be ex-employee’s work history, simply refer them to HR. From my experience, many companies these days will only release the dates of employment, job title, and that person’s eligibility for rehire. This is to avoid (again) potential liability, as in the US there have been lawsuits over a company giving ‘bad references’. I know that seems weird. These days, if a company answers that an ex-employee is ‘NOT eligible for rehire’, that usually lets the potential employer know that there was some kind of serious issue associated with that person’s separation. Often, that is all the (ex)potential employer needs to hear.
Oh yes, and IANAL - I live in IL.
posted by mockjovial at 5:41 AM on October 4, 2006
You're not going to be able to get rid of her right now unless she leaves of her own volition. You should be documenting her substandard performance in preparation for firing her down the line.
posted by electroboy at 6:23 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by electroboy at 6:23 AM on October 4, 2006
Do whatever your company requires, but generally it goes like this:
You have a meeting with the employee. Make sure she knows exactly what her duties and responsibilities are, and that she has not been meeting those expectations. Most people com into a job not knowing exactly what's expected of them, and it takes a serious sit-down to get it across sometimes.
Listen to her - it's your duty and responsibility as a manager to find out her issue and give her help in solving it. Once she knows she's in trouble, maybe she'll flame out and save you the trouble of firing her, but you have to genuinely try to help her, first. It'll make you a better manager.
Set goals for her. Make sure they're laid out as specifically as possible. Yes, a good employee can fill in the blanks, but it never hurts to be more clear.
Document everything said in this first meeting, and schedule another one according to HR's recommendations. This can be as little as 30 days, but your company certainly has a policy. During this time, document each case of her not performing her duties. I don't mean follow her around with a clipboard, but just note each case that's worth of mention, without being petty. If you have to say something to her during this 30 days, keep it brief and specific. The point of this time is as much to give a bad employee enough rope to hang themselves as it is to give a good employee a chance to straighten out. At the end of the time, she's either turned her behavior around, in which case you now have a trained and competent employee(which it is the job of a manager to create), or you have someone who who has a record of underperforming. Now sometimes you have to give them a second warning, since you laid out the goals in the first meeting. This next period of time is handled the same as the first, but if you can't turn her into a good employee after that, you can usually proceed with a case for firing her.
This also means that you failed at one of your job duties, which is to develop a pool of trained and competent employees. Some people just can't be helped, but having to fire someone never looks good on you, no matter how bad they were.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 6:29 AM on October 4, 2006 [2 favorites]
Document everything said in this first meeting, and schedule another one according to HR's recommendations. This can be as little as 30 days, but your company certainly has a policy. During this time, document each case of her not performing her duties. I don't mean follow her around with a clipboard, but just note each case that's worth of mention, without being petty. If you have to say something to her during this 30 days, keep it brief and specific. The point of this time is as much to give a bad employee enough rope to hang themselves as it is to give a good employee a chance to straighten out. At the end of the time, she's either turned her behavior around, in which case you now have a trained and competent employee(which it is the job of a manager to create), or you have someone who who has a record of underperforming. Now sometimes you have to give them a second warning, since you laid out the goals in the first meeting. This next period of time is handled the same as the first, but if you can't turn her into a good employee after that, you can usually proceed with a case for firing her.
This also means that you failed at one of your job duties, which is to develop a pool of trained and competent employees. Some people just can't be helped, but having to fire someone never looks good on you, no matter how bad they were.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 6:29 AM on October 4, 2006 [2 favorites]
You're not going to be able to get rid of her right now unless she leaves of her own volition. You should be documenting her substandard performance in preparation for firing her down the line.
How do you reach this conclusion? Assuming anon. is in the US, the individual is most likely employed "at will" (notwithstanding the 90 day "trial" period), and can therefore be fired for any reason* or no reason at all.
That said, I agree with everyone else that you're far better off discussing this issue with your HR department than soliciting advice on AskMeFi.
(*unless that reason is one protected by law. But if we take anon's statement to be true, that is not an issue.)
posted by pardonyou? at 6:32 AM on October 4, 2006
How do you reach this conclusion? Assuming anon. is in the US, the individual is most likely employed "at will" (notwithstanding the 90 day "trial" period), and can therefore be fired for any reason* or no reason at all.
That said, I agree with everyone else that you're far better off discussing this issue with your HR department than soliciting advice on AskMeFi.
(*unless that reason is one protected by law. But if we take anon's statement to be true, that is not an issue.)
posted by pardonyou? at 6:32 AM on October 4, 2006
Definatley contact your HR dept. At my job, time card fraud will get you instantly terminated. No probation, no second chances, you are fired.
Like others have mentioned, start documenting everything so you have a clearly defined history of failure/incompetence.
Also, have you tried talking to your boss about this? Maybe an "off the record" lunch, where you ask for advice?
Mr. Gunn:This also means that you failed at one of your job duties, which is to develop a pool of trained and competent employees.
The OP clearly states he/she is in a new position, which probably means this problem employee was already hired by an old manager. So the OP is trying to develop a pool of competent employees, and that pool needs to lose some pre-existing dead weight.
posted by blind.wombat at 6:49 AM on October 4, 2006
Like others have mentioned, start documenting everything so you have a clearly defined history of failure/incompetence.
Also, have you tried talking to your boss about this? Maybe an "off the record" lunch, where you ask for advice?
Mr. Gunn:This also means that you failed at one of your job duties, which is to develop a pool of trained and competent employees.
The OP clearly states he/she is in a new position, which probably means this problem employee was already hired by an old manager. So the OP is trying to develop a pool of competent employees, and that pool needs to lose some pre-existing dead weight.
posted by blind.wombat at 6:49 AM on October 4, 2006
How do you reach this conclusion? Assuming anon. is in the US, the individual is most likely employed "at will" (notwithstanding the 90 day "trial" period), and can therefore be fired for any reason* or no reason at all.
Well, without any documentation showing how substandard her work is, she could easily sue the company, saying she was fired because anon hit on her and she rejected him/her. Sure, it would be a s/he said/she said situation, but I've often heard of such stories where incompetent employees get fired, and then sue on some trumped up charge. If you've got lots of documentation to CYA, then you have nothing to worry about.
posted by antifuse at 7:01 AM on October 4, 2006
Well, without any documentation showing how substandard her work is, she could easily sue the company, saying she was fired because anon hit on her and she rejected him/her. Sure, it would be a s/he said/she said situation, but I've often heard of such stories where incompetent employees get fired, and then sue on some trumped up charge. If you've got lots of documentation to CYA, then you have nothing to worry about.
posted by antifuse at 7:01 AM on October 4, 2006
I've known a couple of folks terminated for poor performance. In each case, they were given "improvement plans," with specific, measureable steps they would have to take by a certain deadline (generally three months). When they didn't didn't meet the written requirements outlined in the improvement plans, they were fired.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 7:04 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by croutonsupafreak at 7:04 AM on October 4, 2006
(I'm the head of HR for a multi-state, multi-country company.) You can always do a severance agreement on anyone, and depending on the state and company precident, at will employment is a highly viable big stick you can use to get someone out.
My advice - sit her down, scare the shit out of her, and use phrases like, "your employment here will be very short unless you cease (these behaviors) and display (these behaviors) starting immediately. I'm giving you the afternoon off with pay to think about what you want to do, but if you choose to come back tomorrow, I want you to come back with a written plan to get it together. We will meet at 8:00 AM. If you're late, I will consider you to have quit. Do you understand me?"
She'll hate you and start looking, but she'll come back with a plan. If she doesn't follow the plan exactly, term her.
But in the meantime you do have to talk to your HR people, they may have set a different precident based on your employee manual or history of terminations.
posted by pomegranate at 7:16 AM on October 4, 2006 [4 favorites]
My advice - sit her down, scare the shit out of her, and use phrases like, "your employment here will be very short unless you cease (these behaviors) and display (these behaviors) starting immediately. I'm giving you the afternoon off with pay to think about what you want to do, but if you choose to come back tomorrow, I want you to come back with a written plan to get it together. We will meet at 8:00 AM. If you're late, I will consider you to have quit. Do you understand me?"
She'll hate you and start looking, but she'll come back with a plan. If she doesn't follow the plan exactly, term her.
But in the meantime you do have to talk to your HR people, they may have set a different precident based on your employee manual or history of terminations.
posted by pomegranate at 7:16 AM on October 4, 2006 [4 favorites]
An upside of pomegranate's approach is that it giver the employee in quetion an opportunity to improve. She may or may not rise to the occasion, but if she does you will have improved both your lots. Remember that there is no guarantee that it will be easy to replace her with someone better, at least right away. If she can be persuaded to bring her work and behaviour up to standards that would be far better than terminating her.
posted by TedW at 7:23 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by TedW at 7:23 AM on October 4, 2006
Your HR people are here to help you with this, as evidenced by pomegranate's reply. In most states, the stern-talking-to/probation plan is a courtesy, not an obligation. You want to do it right, because she could file an unemployment appeal, but that's what HR is for. And you can just go to them for advice at first, before you decide how you want to proceed.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:31 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by Lyn Never at 7:31 AM on October 4, 2006
I am a assistant general manager of a franchise of 9 restrants and a central baking location. I've delt with problems just like this too many times to count. Normally I'd just say turn her in to HR for timecard fraud, but that likely won't work (you said she was salery, right?). So here's how you work it:
1: Document EVERYTHING, and have a reputible witness (read: someone also in a management position) for any disiplinary discorse that goes on. I would also keep all her work on file if you're not already.
2: Set up goals for her. Make sure she knows what's expected of her. Do this written and have her sign it. Then it goes in the file (you want two copys so she can have one). Extra points if you setup a mid day meeting with her everyday during the times that you think she's sneeking out.
3: Issue written warning after first week with no change in performance. Final warning after the second week of no change (if there's a positive change, then maybe you should consider keeping her).
4: Consult HR after final warning, tell them that you feel that Employee X is a detrement to the company and needs to be terminated. Find out if what if any loops need to be jumped through to make it final (honestly, that last part should have been done first, I just didn't think of it - I *AM* the HR department at my company).
5: Fire, and enjoy the warmth. Be careful if she calls to use you as a referance: some states have laws against giveing a bad ref. Again, if you're in doubt, defer to HR. They'll just give out employment verification and MAYBE position held.
6: SAVE EVERYTHING STILL. She might sue, so put it in cold storage for a few years (most of it's required to be saved for a while by law anyway).
I think that should take care of it, in less then a month if she's REALLY that poor. If you can catch her doing somthing REALLY bad (like leaving when not on break) you can fire her without delay (though for safty you might issue ONE warning first).
Hope this helps! I hate dead weight.
posted by TrueVox at 7:33 AM on October 4, 2006
1: Document EVERYTHING, and have a reputible witness (read: someone also in a management position) for any disiplinary discorse that goes on. I would also keep all her work on file if you're not already.
2: Set up goals for her. Make sure she knows what's expected of her. Do this written and have her sign it. Then it goes in the file (you want two copys so she can have one). Extra points if you setup a mid day meeting with her everyday during the times that you think she's sneeking out.
3: Issue written warning after first week with no change in performance. Final warning after the second week of no change (if there's a positive change, then maybe you should consider keeping her).
4: Consult HR after final warning, tell them that you feel that Employee X is a detrement to the company and needs to be terminated. Find out if what if any loops need to be jumped through to make it final (honestly, that last part should have been done first, I just didn't think of it - I *AM* the HR department at my company).
5: Fire, and enjoy the warmth. Be careful if she calls to use you as a referance: some states have laws against giveing a bad ref. Again, if you're in doubt, defer to HR. They'll just give out employment verification and MAYBE position held.
6: SAVE EVERYTHING STILL. She might sue, so put it in cold storage for a few years (most of it's required to be saved for a while by law anyway).
I think that should take care of it, in less then a month if she's REALLY that poor. If you can catch her doing somthing REALLY bad (like leaving when not on break) you can fire her without delay (though for safty you might issue ONE warning first).
Hope this helps! I hate dead weight.
posted by TrueVox at 7:33 AM on October 4, 2006
On second thought, I like pomegranate's idea better. I'm going to start using that myself. Go with that one.
posted by TrueVox at 7:35 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by TrueVox at 7:35 AM on October 4, 2006
You HAVE to start by talking to HR about this, and finding out what their policies are. You also will have to confront this employee about her performance; HR might have some suggestions about how to do this, but it will likely have to come from you. There's good advice in this thread. Remember that this is a dicey situation, and if you do it incorrectly, you endanger your own position.
posted by Sprout the Vulgarian at 7:43 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by Sprout the Vulgarian at 7:43 AM on October 4, 2006
I think that Mr. Gunn and pomegranate have both given you excellent advice on how to proceed. Obviously, you will have to involve your HR department on this.
However, I want to personally commend you for being concerned enough to actually try to proceed with firing this person. The behaviour you describe is often tolerated at many workplaces due to lazy bosses or lawsuit-fearful companies. Stick to your intuition, because this person isn't going to get any better. (It will also set an excellent example to the rest of your staff that you don't screw around!)
posted by MrZero at 7:45 AM on October 4, 2006
However, I want to personally commend you for being concerned enough to actually try to proceed with firing this person. The behaviour you describe is often tolerated at many workplaces due to lazy bosses or lawsuit-fearful companies. Stick to your intuition, because this person isn't going to get any better. (It will also set an excellent example to the rest of your staff that you don't screw around!)
posted by MrZero at 7:45 AM on October 4, 2006
I loved Pomegranate's idea. Very to the point, and puts the power to change the situation solely in the employee's lap, which is where is should be.
For the record, I do not agree that having to fire an employee is a symptom of failure as a manager. Constant firings - maybe. But the occasional termination is a normal part of a manager's life. In fact, I view managers who are able to terminate well, without repercussions as better managers that those who can't seem to seperate an employee without lots of drama and lingering issues.
As we always say, an employee who is terminated correctly will never be surprised, and will have been given every chance to fix their performance issues.
posted by Futurehouse at 8:43 AM on October 4, 2006
For the record, I do not agree that having to fire an employee is a symptom of failure as a manager. Constant firings - maybe. But the occasional termination is a normal part of a manager's life. In fact, I view managers who are able to terminate well, without repercussions as better managers that those who can't seem to seperate an employee without lots of drama and lingering issues.
As we always say, an employee who is terminated correctly will never be surprised, and will have been given every chance to fix their performance issues.
posted by Futurehouse at 8:43 AM on October 4, 2006
On a human level, it sounds as if you could find out something about the underlying reasons of why she is leaving exactly at 5PM - eg., childcare, dying parent, etc.? It sounds as if you don't really know her history at the company all that well, since you're new - has she had an excellent track record, up til now? Is this likely to be a temp situation for her, or is it endemic to her character? Finally, your "sneaking out" comment is probably not fruitful in and of itself - she may wish to say goodbye to friends, go to the ladies' room, any number of legit things besides lying on her time sheet. Perhaps she just doesn't like you as much as you seem to dislike her.
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:44 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:44 AM on October 4, 2006
A couple things to ponder:
You mention that this is your new position. Could it be possible that the person you replaced allowed this (and probably a lot of other bad behavior) and not really did anything to correct it? Maybe some investigation IS in order about the reasons, if only to rule out management's negligence or a professional issue she may be handling by avoidance. You could coume out of this with a good employee AND the reputation for being a problem-solver, not a meany boss.
The reason I mention this, is I am currently filling in for a person who was let go for constantly being AWOL during the day (he was running a side business and would repeatedly sneak out to talk on his cel phone) all on company time. Everyone knew about it EXCEPT management. They are notoriously asleep at the wheel and his direct supervisor is so overworked, she didn't have the resources to reprimand him before it became a glaring problem that resulted in his termination. Management could have spared themselves a non-productive employee if they noticed (the way we did) that this person had a pretty regular schedule when he went AWOL.
posted by Carnage Asada at 9:03 AM on October 4, 2006
You mention that this is your new position. Could it be possible that the person you replaced allowed this (and probably a lot of other bad behavior) and not really did anything to correct it? Maybe some investigation IS in order about the reasons, if only to rule out management's negligence or a professional issue she may be handling by avoidance. You could coume out of this with a good employee AND the reputation for being a problem-solver, not a meany boss.
The reason I mention this, is I am currently filling in for a person who was let go for constantly being AWOL during the day (he was running a side business and would repeatedly sneak out to talk on his cel phone) all on company time. Everyone knew about it EXCEPT management. They are notoriously asleep at the wheel and his direct supervisor is so overworked, she didn't have the resources to reprimand him before it became a glaring problem that resulted in his termination. Management could have spared themselves a non-productive employee if they noticed (the way we did) that this person had a pretty regular schedule when he went AWOL.
posted by Carnage Asada at 9:03 AM on October 4, 2006
It can be all levels of unholy to fire someone in an at-will state. I know becuase I had to exist alongside a potential fire-ee for a good long time, and it nearly drove me insane.
Mr Gunn and pomegranate have given very good advice. Pretty much, with She Who Could Not Be Fired, pomegranate's advice was followed, but the catch was that she claimed medical/drug problems (she admitted before being caught and was in treatment) and apparently that made it extraordinarily difficult to fire her. And when they finally did term her, she still filed for unemployment. So, as much as people have been telling you to document? Document MORE than that. My former employer basically had to prove that it had bent over backwards to give this girl a chance to improve. so don't skimp on the compassion, even if you're faking it. You don't want this girl coming back to haunt you if you do manage to fire her, and you never know -- she might have a legitimate issue.
posted by Medieval Maven at 9:09 AM on October 4, 2006
Mr Gunn and pomegranate have given very good advice. Pretty much, with She Who Could Not Be Fired, pomegranate's advice was followed, but the catch was that she claimed medical/drug problems (she admitted before being caught and was in treatment) and apparently that made it extraordinarily difficult to fire her. And when they finally did term her, she still filed for unemployment. So, as much as people have been telling you to document? Document MORE than that. My former employer basically had to prove that it had bent over backwards to give this girl a chance to improve. so don't skimp on the compassion, even if you're faking it. You don't want this girl coming back to haunt you if you do manage to fire her, and you never know -- she might have a legitimate issue.
posted by Medieval Maven at 9:09 AM on October 4, 2006
Depending on your jurisdiction, the solution is simple: give her two weeks' severance or notice and terminate her without cause. You don't have to tell her why or justify the dismissal as long as your provide severance or notice. Again, depending on the jurisditcion. Works that way in mine.
posted by solid-one-love at 9:18 AM on October 4, 2006
posted by solid-one-love at 9:18 AM on October 4, 2006
This is coming from someone who has just had a great meeting with his manager and HR about my poor performance which has really helped me at work (also in Australia which makes it harder to flat out fire someone).
First you need to determine if you want her to stay with the company. Talk to others in the company about her past performance to see if the poor performance is a recent thing or if she is just generally no good at her job. If she has always been like this, go straight to HR and find out what the quickest way to get rid of her is.
If this is recent then I'd give her the oppurtunity to improve. It is better to not have to find a new person, train and take the risk of getting someone worse.
Have a meeting to discuss her performance with her. Talk to HR and see if they want to have a representative there (sounds like it is at a stage where they probably should). Find out if she agrees that her performance is poor and if she wants to change it.
If she doesn't, work out an exit strategy with her (if she will need to be replaced and you need time to do this) or just fire her.
If she does, discuss what you think she needs to improve. Write all this down and give her a copy. Organise regular meetings (I am doing weekly, but you may want to make it more often than this) to discuss how you both think she is going with this. And set an end date to get together with HR again to go over it all again, mine is 4 weeks, but sounds like you might only want to give her a week or two.
At the risk of 1-4 more weeks of poor performance you have the chance of avoiding having to find someone new and the possibility of her actually being a good employee.
posted by lrobertjones at 9:29 AM on October 4, 2006
First you need to determine if you want her to stay with the company. Talk to others in the company about her past performance to see if the poor performance is a recent thing or if she is just generally no good at her job. If she has always been like this, go straight to HR and find out what the quickest way to get rid of her is.
If this is recent then I'd give her the oppurtunity to improve. It is better to not have to find a new person, train and take the risk of getting someone worse.
Have a meeting to discuss her performance with her. Talk to HR and see if they want to have a representative there (sounds like it is at a stage where they probably should). Find out if she agrees that her performance is poor and if she wants to change it.
If she doesn't, work out an exit strategy with her (if she will need to be replaced and you need time to do this) or just fire her.
If she does, discuss what you think she needs to improve. Write all this down and give her a copy. Organise regular meetings (I am doing weekly, but you may want to make it more often than this) to discuss how you both think she is going with this. And set an end date to get together with HR again to go over it all again, mine is 4 weeks, but sounds like you might only want to give her a week or two.
At the risk of 1-4 more weeks of poor performance you have the chance of avoiding having to find someone new and the possibility of her actually being a good employee.
posted by lrobertjones at 9:29 AM on October 4, 2006
And what is your advice for getting around the usual procedure of cooking up some 90-day probationary period and setting goals for the person, etc. I want her out. Now.
Not gonna happen... it's pretty certain that your HR department will not let you fire someone without any sort of progressive discipline first. It's a huge legal risk, otherwise, and they won't open the company up to that sort of danger.
As others have said... take this to your HR group and follow what they say to the letter. But be resigned to the fact that this won't be quick, unless she resigns suddenly.
posted by BobFrapples at 10:33 AM on October 4, 2006
Not gonna happen... it's pretty certain that your HR department will not let you fire someone without any sort of progressive discipline first. It's a huge legal risk, otherwise, and they won't open the company up to that sort of danger.
As others have said... take this to your HR group and follow what they say to the letter. But be resigned to the fact that this won't be quick, unless she resigns suddenly.
posted by BobFrapples at 10:33 AM on October 4, 2006
This will be a bit different.
If you have to fire someone, especially when there is this sort of resentment going on (sneaking out, coming in late) on both your parts....
She failed as an employee...but you also failed as a manager.
I want her out. Now. She has been here since I got here, and is past the initial 90-day " trial" period. Also, how do I catalog her deficiencies.
Maybe she's fed up, maybe she doesn't think you're worth anything (maybe she's going through a family crisis.)
I absolutely could be wrong, I don't know, I'm not in the situation, but when a manager "wants" someone gone....and gone fast...at some level you have to make sure you're not at fault.
You're about to ruin someone's life, make sure you do so for the right reasons. Everyone deserves redemption.
posted by filmgeek at 1:09 PM on October 4, 2006 [2 favorites]
If you have to fire someone, especially when there is this sort of resentment going on (sneaking out, coming in late) on both your parts....
She failed as an employee...but you also failed as a manager.
I want her out. Now. She has been here since I got here, and is past the initial 90-day " trial" period. Also, how do I catalog her deficiencies.
Maybe she's fed up, maybe she doesn't think you're worth anything (maybe she's going through a family crisis.)
I absolutely could be wrong, I don't know, I'm not in the situation, but when a manager "wants" someone gone....and gone fast...at some level you have to make sure you're not at fault.
You're about to ruin someone's life, make sure you do so for the right reasons. Everyone deserves redemption.
posted by filmgeek at 1:09 PM on October 4, 2006 [2 favorites]
Maybe she's fed up, maybe she doesn't think you're worth anything
This is possible. Any boss who considered it a bad thing that I left when my shift was over ("shows no commitment...she leaves no later than 5:00") would be a boss that I would leave, tout de suite.
posted by solid-one-love at 3:22 PM on October 4, 2006
This is possible. Any boss who considered it a bad thing that I left when my shift was over ("shows no commitment...she leaves no later than 5:00") would be a boss that I would leave, tout de suite.
posted by solid-one-love at 3:22 PM on October 4, 2006
You're about to ruin someone's life
While I agree with the gist of filmgeeks comments (I was trying to make a similar point about giving her a shot a redemption in my earlier coment), this overstates things. People lose jobs every day for a variety of reasons. In some cases it ruins their lives, but in others it steers them in a new and better direction. How often have you heard someone say "getting fired was the best thing that ever happened to me" or something similar? Most people, of course, just find another job and get on with their lives.
posted by TedW at 3:45 PM on October 4, 2006
While I agree with the gist of filmgeeks comments (I was trying to make a similar point about giving her a shot a redemption in my earlier coment), this overstates things. People lose jobs every day for a variety of reasons. In some cases it ruins their lives, but in others it steers them in a new and better direction. How often have you heard someone say "getting fired was the best thing that ever happened to me" or something similar? Most people, of course, just find another job and get on with their lives.
posted by TedW at 3:45 PM on October 4, 2006
I second all comments about having a sit-down with her. If she's not meeting your expectations she may not be aware of what the expectations are. I agree that "goofing off on the Internet" is unprofessional and she should know better, but a short email from you could cut that short.
She arrives at 9:00 and leaves promptly at 5:00. Sounds like she's into being prompt. Many companies nowadays recognize the importance of "work-life balance." Is your company not one of them? Also, without actually seeing her leave, you can't assume she is "sneaking out."
She's salaried, so someone apparently thought she was worth the money. So give her the benefit of the doubt.
I would advise you to look inward before giving her the axe. You will likely have many employees cross your path who try your patience. Good managers learn how to deal with them in a professional and responsible way; if you do not, your department will be a revolving door (which doesn't look good to Your managers).
It sounds like this may be more of a personality and management style conflict than cause for dismissal. Plus, it is much more costly (time and money) to hire someone else than it would be to have a 20 minute chat.
posted by mynameismandab at 4:30 PM on October 4, 2006
She arrives at 9:00 and leaves promptly at 5:00. Sounds like she's into being prompt. Many companies nowadays recognize the importance of "work-life balance." Is your company not one of them? Also, without actually seeing her leave, you can't assume she is "sneaking out."
She's salaried, so someone apparently thought she was worth the money. So give her the benefit of the doubt.
I would advise you to look inward before giving her the axe. You will likely have many employees cross your path who try your patience. Good managers learn how to deal with them in a professional and responsible way; if you do not, your department will be a revolving door (which doesn't look good to Your managers).
It sounds like this may be more of a personality and management style conflict than cause for dismissal. Plus, it is much more costly (time and money) to hire someone else than it would be to have a 20 minute chat.
posted by mynameismandab at 4:30 PM on October 4, 2006
That said, Document, document, document. Keep copies of the substandard work. Document the proceedings of your meeting and the behaviors you address. Document the work that follows the meeting, especially the work that isn't up to par, and document why it's lacking in language HR can understand. Once she's been warned, she can't say she didn't know any better.
posted by mynameismandab at 4:41 PM on October 4, 2006
posted by mynameismandab at 4:41 PM on October 4, 2006
Interesting:
I'm in a new position
Also:
... substandard work...shows no commitment (she leaves no later than 5:00, goofs off on the internet, and then has the gall to complain about deadlines), and doesn't take instruction well... I can explain exactly what needs to be done, at 9:00 in the morning, and at the end of the day what I get is half the job, and that half is done poorly. She is a writer, by he way.
Another thing is, this person deliberately sneaks out of the office every afternoon - the quickest way out is to walk right past my door, but she never does. She goes the long way, and I think it is so that I don't see her. Finally, I don't think she is properly reporting time off.
It seems to me that Anons inexperience, or perhaps incompetence, as a manager is causing many problems.
Anon has failed to talk to the person about this, and formed poisonous assumptions, that irregardless of the person’s actually guilt or malfeasance have all but condemned them.
Perhaps you are trying to rationalise, by grasping at straws, a personal dislike for this person? Perhaps you need to follow the suggestions of mynameismandab, et al, and procedure in dare I say a more professional and mature manner.
posted by oxford blue at 5:06 PM on October 4, 2006
I'm in a new position
Also:
... substandard work...shows no commitment (she leaves no later than 5:00, goofs off on the internet, and then has the gall to complain about deadlines), and doesn't take instruction well... I can explain exactly what needs to be done, at 9:00 in the morning, and at the end of the day what I get is half the job, and that half is done poorly. She is a writer, by he way.
Another thing is, this person deliberately sneaks out of the office every afternoon - the quickest way out is to walk right past my door, but she never does. She goes the long way, and I think it is so that I don't see her. Finally, I don't think she is properly reporting time off.
It seems to me that Anons inexperience, or perhaps incompetence, as a manager is causing many problems.
Anon has failed to talk to the person about this, and formed poisonous assumptions, that irregardless of the person’s actually guilt or malfeasance have all but condemned them.
Perhaps you are trying to rationalise, by grasping at straws, a personal dislike for this person? Perhaps you need to follow the suggestions of mynameismandab, et al, and procedure in dare I say a more professional and mature manner.
posted by oxford blue at 5:06 PM on October 4, 2006
This could well have described me for a while when I was an intern at a magazine. I did the same things—took forever to turn in even small pieces, messed around online a lot of the time, avoided calling up people for interviews when I was in the office, and left no later than 5:30 p.m. (the official end of the day for me) whenever possible.
But see...it wasn't because I'm a bad writer (I'm certainly not) or because I'm incapable of doing good work. On the contrary, my behavior was largely due to my longstanding procrastination problems, combined with my anxiety about screwing up the writing. And I avoided the phone because I also have longstanding phone issues that I'm still working to get over—I hate people listening to me talk on the phone, and in this office situation, you couldn't avoid it, since the senior editors' offices were directly across the hall from the interns' room (which had an open door). Whenever I'd get close to deadline, I'd often get nervous and avoid talking about the work with the editors. Sometimes I'd let the deadline lapse 'cause I couldn't bring myself to finish the project.
And I'd be out the door by 5:30 p.m. sharp because I had to catch a shuttle that stopped three blocks away at 5:40 p.m.
You see her behavior as an affront to you—like she's trying to pull a fast one on you, or get paid for doing no work. But it seems to me that you need to suck it up and gently try to broach the subject with her before taking action.
It may be that she really does suck as a writer, that she's bluffed her way into this position somehow and can't hold up her end of the bargain. I've definitely worked with writers like that—they seem great when you talk to them, but they really can't hack it when it comes to writing, researching, and organizing ideas. If that's her, then fine.
But it may just as well be that she's anxious about the work and overwhelmed by the position. Do you have access to old clips of hers? Did she show promise and good writing skills to begin with? If so, perhaps she's new to having this much responsibility or daily deadlines. Perhaps she, too, has problems with procrastination. Perhaps she can take direction—she just needs you to explain what you want better, esp. since it's on "arcane subject matter." As her supervisor (or editor?), you're in a managerial role, and part of managing is working with people to figure out how they can best do their work. This is what you do when you work with writers: you figure out how to best cajole and wheedle and plead and do whatever else you can to wrench the best work out of them.
Whatever the case turns out to be, you can't ethically take a shortcut here before investigating whether she truly is as bad as you think she is. You need to really talk to her and try to read her intentions.
posted by limeonaire at 5:32 AM on October 5, 2006 [1 favorite]
But see...it wasn't because I'm a bad writer (I'm certainly not) or because I'm incapable of doing good work. On the contrary, my behavior was largely due to my longstanding procrastination problems, combined with my anxiety about screwing up the writing. And I avoided the phone because I also have longstanding phone issues that I'm still working to get over—I hate people listening to me talk on the phone, and in this office situation, you couldn't avoid it, since the senior editors' offices were directly across the hall from the interns' room (which had an open door). Whenever I'd get close to deadline, I'd often get nervous and avoid talking about the work with the editors. Sometimes I'd let the deadline lapse 'cause I couldn't bring myself to finish the project.
And I'd be out the door by 5:30 p.m. sharp because I had to catch a shuttle that stopped three blocks away at 5:40 p.m.
You see her behavior as an affront to you—like she's trying to pull a fast one on you, or get paid for doing no work. But it seems to me that you need to suck it up and gently try to broach the subject with her before taking action.
It may be that she really does suck as a writer, that she's bluffed her way into this position somehow and can't hold up her end of the bargain. I've definitely worked with writers like that—they seem great when you talk to them, but they really can't hack it when it comes to writing, researching, and organizing ideas. If that's her, then fine.
But it may just as well be that she's anxious about the work and overwhelmed by the position. Do you have access to old clips of hers? Did she show promise and good writing skills to begin with? If so, perhaps she's new to having this much responsibility or daily deadlines. Perhaps she, too, has problems with procrastination. Perhaps she can take direction—she just needs you to explain what you want better, esp. since it's on "arcane subject matter." As her supervisor (or editor?), you're in a managerial role, and part of managing is working with people to figure out how they can best do their work. This is what you do when you work with writers: you figure out how to best cajole and wheedle and plead and do whatever else you can to wrench the best work out of them.
Whatever the case turns out to be, you can't ethically take a shortcut here before investigating whether she truly is as bad as you think she is. You need to really talk to her and try to read her intentions.
posted by limeonaire at 5:32 AM on October 5, 2006 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by oh pollo! at 4:49 AM on October 4, 2006