Am I screwed?

August 25, 2006 11:21 AM

Had a fight with my boss, am I screwed?

Yesterday my boss expressed (very out of the blue) some personal opinions regarding terrorism that I disagree with rather strongly.

Instead of keeping my big mouth shut I spoke up and things got moderately heated (at one point I compared the policies he was supporting to the policies of various dictators as well as the American internment policy of WWII), he accused me of calling him a Nazi (I didn't and he's not) after that we both backed off, a half hour later I offered an apology for any unintended offence, this was spurned and his opinions were repeated, I just nodded and walked away.

Fast forward to today, he has a meeting with me, expresses middling satisfaction with my work (previously he was rather glowing) and mentions that I better not use him as a reference "when" I leave.

Am I screwed? Do I escalate this to HR? I know they would likely back me once they heard his opinions and I also think they would understand that I wasn't calling him a Nazi personally. Should I be job hunting?

posted by Cosine to work & money (56 comments total)

Escalate this to HR to protect your short-term interests, and look for a new job in the meantime to protect your long-term interests.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:24 AM on August 25, 2006

Do not escalate to HR. Let it sit for a week or two and see what happens. Whether to go to HR or find a new job will likely become obvious.
posted by crhanson at 11:26 AM on August 25, 2006 [1 favorite]

Give him a week to cool off and revisit the subject. Unless your job was insecure prior to this conversation, I doubt that this will change that. However, if he's the type to keep it personal (which we don't know yet, we just know that he's sensitive and has a short fuse), then yes, I'd start shopping for a new job. IMHO, HR can only help you if you're released for non-job-related matter, and chances are he'll be careful not to do that (which is why his opinion of your work is souring).

But politics at work? Seriously? What were you thinking?
posted by SeizeTheDay at 11:26 AM on August 25, 2006

I know, I know. I bit my tongue for a good 30 seconds while he said this (again weirdly completely out of the blue) to the entire dept. I'd trade the tip of my tongue now to undo it. I felt some personal stake in it as I work in an extremely multi-cultural workplace and a lot of my friends are non-white.
posted by Cosine at 11:30 AM on August 25, 2006

Document everything as soon as you can. Email it to your personal email from your work email. Collect any emails from him telling you 'good job (brownie)' or whatever it is your boss says to heap on the praise. If he turns on the screws, do the same.

If you have access to his computer, put porn on it.

Shed a tear for the bill of rights.
posted by DragonBoy at 11:32 AM on August 25, 2006 [1 favorite]

In my experience, HR is not there to protect the employee from management, but it is more there to protect management from the employees. Don't go to HR unless you are experiencing systematic and documentable problems. This may sound too cynical, and it may depend on the size of the organization you are in, but I've never seen HR "help" an employee who had problems with their manager.
posted by chr1sb0y at 11:32 AM on August 25, 2006

You already know this, but getting into a political pissing match at work is not a good thing, especially with the guy that signs the checks. Not to let you off the hook, but your boss should have known better, too.

I think you should let things ride for a week or two, then take stock of how you're treated. If your boss still holds a grudge I suggest you start looking elsewhere. The guy's day-after reaction doesn't make the situation look terribly promising (or professional, for that matter).
posted by SteveInMaine at 11:38 AM on August 25, 2006

I know others may not agree and that it has, and probably will continue to cause problems for you, but I do thing in general you did the right thing. I don't know how things where expressed, what language was used etc. but openly challenging such behavior sets the precedent that the behavior is not appropriate for the work. He crossed a line and got stung, so next time hopefully he will not cross that line, which may save his ass in the future if he gets more transgressive.
Sorry this happened, hard to say if you are screwed or not, all depends on the personality of the boss.

In general, reference wise most employers have gotten rather conservative and will only answer very basic questions ... how-long-have-they-worked type of questions, giving a negative reference because of differences of politics may be actionable.
posted by edgeways at 11:42 AM on August 25, 2006

Define "escalate." You don't say how big an organization this is so maybe HR is one person in a corner. If it's a big operation and you can informally speak to someone for five minutes then I'd go by and chat with someone. A simple "my supervisor solicited my opinion on a non-work thing and it became a heated discussion" with someone at least puts it on the record as a non-work issue (though it reveals something about both your abilities to remain professional in the workday).

As I've said in other places, the reality of work in the US (where I presume you are given the discussion) is that for the most part "because I think he's an asshole" is an acceptable reason for firing someone (barring union, protected classes, blah blah). In a larger organization, however, the company has some interest in not letting minor personality conflicts drive away good people.

And I second SiezeTheDay. At work is bad enough. With your boss? Cultivate an ability to ignore other people's moronic opinions - it's not like you changed the dude's mind anyway.
posted by phearlez at 11:44 AM on August 25, 2006

What kind of business is it? How large is the company? HR might be a good place to go, if the company is large enough and your boss not a bigwig. But have your docs in a row before you talk to them, because they will talk to him as soon as they hear about it.

I can tell you like the job, but if it were me, I'd be asking myself whether I want to work for this guy.
posted by owhydididoit at 11:45 AM on August 25, 2006

while he said this to the entire dept

Oh, then never mind. You got into a personal conflict over philosophy with your supervisor in front of others? He was unprofessional to engage in this kind of thing in the workplace but that's no excuse to be unprofessional by being insubordinate (even over something he had no business discussing) in front of others.
posted by phearlez at 11:48 AM on August 25, 2006

Quit. It's over. However unintended or mistaken you think it was, someone seriously interpreted what you said as calling him a Nazi. There really ain't coming back from that. Learn to dismiss morons.

openly challenging such behavior sets the precedent that the behavior is not appropriate for the work

But that's not what happened here, according to the original post. Rather than saying, "this is not appropriate for work," which would've been smart, the poster actually lowered himself/herself and engaged the issue on a political level with a "you're opinions are wrong because that is just like what the 'insert bad people here' did."
posted by frogan at 11:59 AM on August 25, 2006

Be very careful. In my experience, if your boss was so willing to profess his opinion in front of a group of subordinates, it may be that he shares the opinion of those higher up in the corporation. Doesn't matter how large the corporation. If you take it to HR, you may be digging yourself a hole that's wide and deep.

What you see as the moral high ground may simply be unAmerican to them.

Let it go for a little while and see what shakes out. Get your resume in order; start looking, just in case. Maybe he's just as eager as you are to bury this disagreement. If not, you may well be screwed.
posted by clarkstonian at 11:59 AM on August 25, 2006

You're done. Initiate emergency evacuation procedure immediately. Seriously.
posted by rinkjustice at 12:00 PM on August 25, 2006

If your boss suddenly starts questioning your work, it's because he's looking to collect enough evidence to fire you. It sounds like he didn't have any evidence prior to your heated discussion but he wants some now. YOU must document everything that happens, good or bad. And I would let someone you trust at work know exactly what's going on. Hopefully, this trustworthy person is in HR.

Definitely sit down and write it all out right now when your memory is still fresh.
posted by Lockjaw at 12:07 PM on August 25, 2006

What a moron this boss is. It's one thing to have a spat, but another for him not to shake hands over it and move on. I wonder if there's any way to move laterally within the company and transfer to a better office.
posted by hodyoaten at 12:11 PM on August 25, 2006

You should offer him a very humble written apology. It doesn't matter if anything you had said in the argument was "right". Beg for forgivness if you must and never discuss anything like this again. Going through official channels will acomplish you nothing in this case. If the argument was work related then you might have a case but this was plain stupidity on your part to begin an argument with your boss over something like this.
posted by JJ86 at 12:15 PM on August 25, 2006

Escalate. Sounds like the sort of person who's not going to realize that personal opinions can be separated from a professional setting, especially if you tried to calm things down . He's going to keep it personal and let the reptillian part of his brain dictate his interactions with you.

Explain to HR that you had a political disagreement, and mutually backed off, but that your attempt to reconcile wasn't fairly considered and he's made it clear that this will adversely affect your professional life. HR will probably start some one on one and communal mediation to reestablish ground rules for appropriate professional behavior. He brought the topic up, so you're entitled to respond. He opened himself up to disagreement and allowed the argument to carry on, which was his responsibility to keep in check. I'd bet he's in more trouble for his actions than you are for yours, assuming the management above him is appropriately professional. You probably should have just stayed quiet and reported his unprofessional political comments to his superior, but I think if you have good management there your actual reaction will be understood.

He also sounds like a terrible arguer. Getting offended and then using it as leverage is petty and childish.
posted by cowbellemoo at 12:15 PM on August 25, 2006

Oh, heck, I'm so sorry this has happened to you.

I think the only way for you to answer this question is to get a lawyer. Depending on what he said it might constitute a hostile work environment.

I must say that you would have a better position if you didn't respond to his comments - or responded through official channels.

You should have this info ready for when you have your first consultation:

1) Detailed description of both interactions - who was present, when, where and exactly what was said by both of you. Also include your feelings now and then about it, as regards whether it seemed to be a hostile work environment because of the interaction.

2) Detailed evidence of your work history and your history with this boss - evaluations, etc. (I always take copies of written evaluations home for this purpose.)

3) Information about whether this boss has any history of violating workplace policies or creating a hostile work environment.

4) A copy of the employee handbook.

5) Contact information for any witnesses. If the lawyer advises moving forward legally it may be necessary to involve them.

Good luck!
posted by By The Grace of God at 12:23 PM on August 25, 2006

You should offer him a very humble written apology. It doesn't matter if anything you had said in the argument was "right". Beg for forgivness if you must and never discuss anything like this again.

What kind of advice is that? I'd prefer to find a new job first.

Beg? Are you for real?

My advice: do the opposite of this.
posted by jon_kill at 12:26 PM on August 25, 2006

the poster actually lowered himself/herself and engaged the issue on a political level with a "you're opinions are wrong because that is just like what the 'insert bad people here' did."

I think it was a slippery slope comparison. Depending on how knee-jerk the comparison was, it certainly could have been used insultingly. But, giving the poster the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume it was adequately explained how soandso's opinions could lead to extremist actions, etc. etc. Sounds more like the boss doesn't know the first thing about rhetoric and took the shortcut to a 'win' by huffing and puffing about the great offense he feels.

But unless there's a sea change in his feelings or a change in who you report to via a meeting with management, it won't be fun to try and carry on as normal.

"Who's comin' with me?"
posted by cowbellemoo at 12:27 PM on August 25, 2006

Fast forward to today, he has a meeting with me, expresses middling satisfaction with my work (previously he was rather glowing) and mentions that I better not use him as a reference "when" I leave.

He's telling you that you made him lose his cool and embarrassed him in front of everybody, he holds a grudge, and, as far as he's concerned, you're fucked forever.

But, if you're fairly sure that HR would back you "once they heard his opinions," and if you can get someone to verify his statements if necessary, you might not be in such a bad spot.

I would start looking for a new job in the company. Get a transfer to work for someone (anyone, at this point) in the company to whom you can explain what happened, show old glowing reviews, and try to talk sense. Even switch career tracks, if the current boss is the only possibility on the current track in the current company. Now is the time to take your current expertise and expand it by moving from sales to development, development to sales, creative to business, business to creative, whatever you can finagle.

If you work hard, you can become your current boss's boss and squash him like a bug. Put him in a windowless little office and ask him, privately, how he likes his cell. It's a worthy career goal.
posted by pracowity at 12:34 PM on August 25, 2006

jon_kill snarked: What kind of advice is that? I'd prefer to find a new job first.

Beg? Are you for real?

My advice: do the opposite of this.

Yeah, he definitely should look for a new job but what does he have to lose by begging? His pride? From what he said, he already sacrificed that when he publicly argued with his boss in the office. It doesn't hurt to be humble if he likes his job and wants to keep it for awhile longer...
posted by JJ86 at 12:41 PM on August 25, 2006

If you work hard, you can become your current boss's boss and squash him like a bug. Put him in a windowless little office and ask him, privately, how he likes his cell. It's a worthy career goal.

Pracowity has a novel plan.
posted by cowbellemoo at 12:44 PM on August 25, 2006

Do not escalate to HR. Let it sit for a week or two and see what happens.

IMHO, you should wait only a day or two and then go to HR regardless of how the climate has changed. He is impeding your career based on a personal issue. This is never acceptable.

That he spouted off about his politics to the whole department means that there is creduible evidnce of a kind of behaviour. He should be censured.

You will probably have to keep working for him, however, until you leave. And you have to leave. So look for work now. And indicate to HR that you'll need a reference from them. Even if they, in general, side with your boss, they'll probably provide you with a written reference.

You should offer him a very humble written apology.

Do not offer a written apology. Do not. Bad, bad, bad idea. As an admission of wrongdoing, you could get shitcanned for it immediately.
posted by solid-one-love at 12:45 PM on August 25, 2006

One thing to consider is that most employers who have any experience administering HR and specifically hiring policies will never give a bad reference. At worst, from any reasonably competent company, you'll get something like "wow, that was awhile ago, and I'm not sure I specifically remember that person." It's not helpful, but it's certainly not as bad as the threat may seem prima facie, coming out of his mouth.
posted by feloniousmonk at 12:48 PM on August 25, 2006

In my experience, HR is not there to protect the employee from management, but it is more there to protect management from the employees.
That's my experience, too.

No written apology. It would look great in your file, next to the other "documentation" of your troublemaking that they use to justify firing you. And "beg"? I'm thinking very rude thoughts in response to that idea.

I'd start looking. You don't want to work for that guy any more, anyway, do you?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:55 PM on August 25, 2006

I am stunned by the people who advocate going to HR about this. chr1sb0y has the most accurate take on the function of HR in a corporation. It certainly is not to help employees to extricate themselves from uncomfortable situations they get into as a result of heated political discussion with their boss, no matter what touchy-feely stuff they may tell you. The best possible case is that they might give him crap for having the discussion in the first place. But if he has a goal of starting to document you as a bad employee, they won't do a single thing to stop that. And if he is vindictive enough to try to jam you because of an argument, it is quite clear that if you whine to HR and get his wrist slapped, he will be about 20 times more likely to try to screw you.

Your best options are to let things cool for a week or so and to to take another shot an apology for inappropriate comments in the workplace. No matter what a tool he was, you were a fool to engage in a heated debate with him at work. You then have to assess if you want to try to find a different position elsewhere in the firm, with another company or if you want to see if you outlast him. He may recover enough of a professional mindset to get over this, I suppose, but I doubt it.

I suspect from your description that you made it very clear to him that you think his opinions are foolish and that you don't respect someone with those beliefs. You will never get that cat back in the bag and he is unlikely to get over being upset about it. He may well a complete buffoon with idiotic ideas who should never have instigated the conversation and never should have become offended, but he doesn't have nearly as much to lose.
posted by Lame_username at 12:56 PM on August 25, 2006 [1 favorite]

My advice to you is: www.monster.com. You may not get canned over this, but get the wheels spinning for you next job regardless.
posted by deadmessenger at 12:57 PM on August 25, 2006

I should have made clear from the start that this is not the US but Canada which is another reason his opinions are likely to find little support.

I love my job and this company, it's a 300 person not-for-profit financial institution with very liberal ideals.

I am also on track for a promotion away from this person within the next two years, or I was....

As so becoming his boss it's not likely as he will be retiring within a few years...

He also made some statements about how he always knew what I thought of him and now he is sure... this is odd as he's actually quite a good manager and although I find some of his politics a bit odd they arent usually that different from my own, I certainly have not thought negatively of him in the past regardless of what he thinks.

This sucks.
posted by Cosine at 12:58 PM on August 25, 2006

I work in an extremely multi-cultural workplace

Was what he said racist? Do you want to go nuclear? If you could have a person of color complain to HR about his rant, you might have him. But more realistically, it is time to dust off the resume.
posted by LarryC at 1:01 PM on August 25, 2006

What kind of advice is that? I'd prefer to find a new job first.

Beg? Are you for real?

In my life I have been shamed by having to humble myself and I have been broke, hungry and desperate for work.

Broke, hungry and desperate for work took longer to fade.
posted by phearlez at 1:02 PM on August 25, 2006 [1 favorite]

What an idiot. We've had heated discussions at the office but we all know that politics is politics and has nothing to do with being professional. I can't believe they took it so personally, it just goes to show you the level of incompetence this manager has. You will need to leave, I don't know what HR is going to do for you. The only thing I would do -- if I was going to do anything was leave and then right a letter to HR explaining why you left. Be very courteous and outline in a clear manner that you felt the politics itself wasn't what caused you to quit but the unprofessional manner of the manager. This way he can't come back and say, "Yeah he/she is just angry at me because they are a communist." This won't help you in anyway but if you're lucky, will get someone to keep a record of such behavior so if he does do it to the wrong person (i.e. another manager, someone higher up) they have a pattern of this behavior.
posted by geoff. at 1:03 PM on August 25, 2006

Are his ideas well known throughout the company? Are there other managers whom you might be able to convince into cherry picking you from this department?
posted by BobbyDigital at 1:09 PM on August 25, 2006

Ah, if you're in Canada, you may have another out. Tell him that your opinion regarding anti-terrorism is part of your creed, and as such is protected by law. Tell him that since he went off on you in front of other staff, you have witnesses and evidence, and that if he so much as thinks about considering the possibility of getting rid of you for any reason real or imagined, you'll make his life a living nightmare of arbitartion and tribunals the likes of which he will never wake up from.

Tell him that your job is safe for life, and that if he wants to test that, you're game to fuck him up.

In BC, for example, the Human Rights Code sez:

13 (1) A person must not

(a) refuse to employ or refuse to continue to employ a person, or

(b) discriminate against a person regarding employment or any term or condition of employment

because of the race, colour, ancestry, place of origin, political belief, religion, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation or age of that person or because that person has been convicted of a criminal or summary conviction offence that is unrelated to the employment or to the intended employment of that person.

Most other provinces have similar laws. Tell him that you've collected evidence and that other staff have agreed to provide you with affidavits (whether or not they have). Watch him fold like a house of cards.
posted by solid-one-love at 1:11 PM on August 25, 2006

You also need to apologize. Not because you were wrong, or the situation was wrong, but because you obviously hurt his feelings. It's just the right thing to do. Something along the lines of "I did not rationally think about how my comments would affect you, as I was particularily sensitive to your comment due to...(insert personal experience here). " It's not an excuse -- I think he is searching for an explanation for your actions. So far he has come up with (a) you hate him or (b) you plan on quitting soon (see below).

The "Now I know what you think of me..." comment might have been an invitation to dicuss the incident and apologzie, and for you to explain to him that that really isn't what you think of him, but just of that one statement. Everyone has moments of bad judgement calls, you made a bad call, if he is a good manager he will understand this. Right now, he is reacting emotionally, but soon he will become a manager again.

I think you infact may be misinterpretting the "you better not use me as a reference when you leave" comment. He may have said that b/c he thinks you are planning on leaving. Think about it, people start to take all sorts of liberties at work if they have leaving on their mind. And if he is about to retire, he has seen this a million times before. Perhaps he asked himself "Why did Cosine act this way?" and maybe he came up with "Because he doesn't feel like he has to respect me anymore, because he is planning to quit." Does your dept. typically have high turnover? Have a lot of people left him?

I would start out by telling him how much you love the job and the company and (white lie) working for him. Then go from there. a letter would work nicely, but in person is better, i think. Do it Monday.

Any one more thing -- try to steer clear of discussing your performance with him for as long as possible. Try to keep that separate.
posted by Eringatang at 1:34 PM on August 25, 2006

phearlez said: In my life I have been shamed by having to humble myself and I have been broke, hungry and desperate for work.

Broke, hungry and desperate for work took longer to fade.

Exactly. I made a stupid move a few years ago because I couldn't stand my boss and quit. My work experience was top notch and the industry I was in had lots of potential but I was still unemployed for over a year after quitting. I was lucky and am in a good job with good pay that I like. In this economy, you can't make stupid choices or you could end up on the street. I know plenty of other people that are in deeper shit because of dumb decsisions. It's not worth it.
posted by JJ86 at 1:38 PM on August 25, 2006

Exactly. I made a stupid move a few years ago because I couldn't stand my boss and quit.

On the other hand, I did the same thing early last year and was unemployed for three months. And even were I still unemployed today and eating bugs, I would still have my integrity, which matters a fuckofalot more than quibbling things like not being dead.

Starving is better than being humiliated by a weasel. Always.

Do not apologize. You were not wrong, and the economy is strong enough in Canada that you'd find work even if you covered every surface of his office in shit, fucked his wife and killed his dog.
posted by solid-one-love at 1:44 PM on August 25, 2006 [1 favorite]

Right now, he is reacting emotionally, but soon he will become a manager again.

He's had one sincere apology already, and more than a day to 'act like a manager' again. He paved the way for the argument and is the one who is letting it interfere with the professional relationship they have. He has acted negatively despite Cosine's attempts to be positive and reconcile.
posted by cowbellemoo at 1:51 PM on August 25, 2006

Do you have any kind of a mediator who can help with this?
posted by orangemiles at 1:57 PM on August 25, 2006

The manager didn't hear the first apology. From what Cosine said it is obvious he was still in fight mode. It takes more than a day to get over hurt feelings. A weekend helps. And if he has already apologized, how could doing so again but with more elaboration be a bad thing?
posted by Eringatang at 2:00 PM on August 25, 2006

I'm sorry about this situation. I'm also taken aback by the number of people who are lecturing you about how behaving the way you did was not prudent, when I suspect you have internalized that better than anyone. I think that Eringatang and lame_username have especially good advice. Largely along the same lines:

1. Don't overreact, including for the reason Eringatang mentioned. Also, you haven't told us that much about the kind of person your boss is. Perhaps he's the kind of person who never forgets, but perhaps it's not impossible to change his views.

2. An apology (decoupled from the question of performance) sounds to me like the most prudent thing . . . even if in an ideal world it wouldn't be necessary, you would be his boss, you could swap jobs without difficulty, there would be no terrorism, etc. It's really easy for others to tell you that you should stand on your principles. Also, FWIW, I can see how if I were in a conversation in which I thought -- however mistakenly, and however much it may have been my fault -- that someone was calling me a Nazi, I'd be pretty cheesed. Probably especially if some part of me saw the merit of the point.

3. It's a matter of judgment as to when and how you apologize -- right away, after a cooling off, when you next cross paths, after you have the chance to cultivate something really great to share with him, etc. I would favor doing it orally -- allows you to judge reaction, and adapt your tone, and avoids building a file (which is generally not your friend).

4. One thing that isn't clear to me, frankly, is how clear your apology was in the first place -- saying you apologize for any unintended offense is kind of like saying "with due respect"; maybe you think no respect is due, and maybe any offense was intended. It also wasn't clear to me how it was spurned.

3. Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but consider third-party intervention. Maybe there's a pal of his who is also a pal of yours who could deliver to him the message that you're really upset about how the conversation spiraled out of control and was misconstrued; ideally he or she could report back to you on the boss's reaction.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 2:05 PM on August 25, 2006

You should absolutely gang up on him and complain about his racism to HR. He will surely be gone very, very fast indeed.
posted by reklaw at 2:09 PM on August 25, 2006

If you want to salvage your relationshp with your boss:

Gossip control. The fight between you and him is all over the office. You'd want to find out how it's being spun. According to the grapevine, is your boss a racist asshole or are you an insburdonitate jerk? If you decide to stay, how you look to other people will be important.

What is your relationship with your boss' boss? Can you go to him/her and ask them for advice on how to improve your relatioship with him? Does your boss have any friends or close acquaintces on the job who you would feel comfortable asking the same?

How does your boss think a model employee should behave? Start behaving that way.

You really need to get your boss to see you as a person again, instead of that guy who called him a Nazi. I think your best shot at doing that is to, in a day or three, have a sit down with him where you cover the following things) Tell him that his comment about how he "always knew what I thought of him and now he is sure" really bothered you because you've always liked him as person and thought he was a good boss. Then tell him why you think he's a good manager/person. Things he's done, kickass projects he's done, etc. Say that it would bother you if your disagreement with him caused you two to no longer have a friendly working relationship. Apologize for calling him a Nazi. (I know you didn't, but he thinks you did) Explain that don't actually think he's a Nazi. Tell him that you it never occured to you that what you said could interpreted that way (without implying that he's a moron for interpreting it that way). Admit that you made a mistake in arguing with him so heatedly and in front of the department. Tell him, (as an explanation, not an excuse) that reason you got so upset and behaved unprofessionally was because you coudn't stop picturing how his policies would affect your arab best friend who you've known since you were six and who was there for you when your dog died, was best man at your wedding, was the thrid person to hold your baby when s/he was born, etc. etc. Lastly, ask him what he thinks the two of you could do to create a better working relationship.

If you have this conversation, it's really important that you not be defensive or judgemental. Don't be wimpy or meek either. Also, you have to actually mean everything that you say. And don't apologize for the opinions you had, just apologize for how you expressed them.
posted by nooneyouknow at 2:16 PM on August 25, 2006

I forgot to add, and should have, that I'd discount advice from anyone concerning your HR department -- and the consequences that complaining to it might have -- that makes assumptions about the character of that department at YOUR ORGANIZATION. I'd also discount anything that offers HR-related advice without citing specific experiences with this kind of situation, but the more important point is that such units vary . . . and no one posting has the foggiest idea of the relations between your boss and said department.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 2:16 PM on August 25, 2006

I have no interest in getting him fired or even in getting him reprimanded in any way. As I said earlier he's actually not a bad manager most of the time.

I apologized about 30 mins after the incident and said that I was sorry if I had caused offence and that my statements were not directed at him personally but rather at the policies he was supporting. His response was 'personally... yeah.... you know you are making a lot of assumptions about me that I don't like...' and he went on to restate how good these policies would be.

One of the reasons I felt I could say these things is that I know he is NOT a racist so my naive assumption was that I could calmly show him what said policies could lead to/have led to in the past.

Personally he's pretty much a grumpy old codger, he treats those of us he manages well but he has some strange opinions and ideas (just ask him about Bigfoot or the end of the world) and is generally pretty negative.
posted by Cosine at 2:17 PM on August 25, 2006

I have never posted three times on anything -- sorry. But I'd add that whenever I think I have caused someone offense, perhaps especially when I'm able to imagine disastrous consequences, I am VERY prone to overreact . . . well after the other party seems to have forgotten about it. I don't think this is unique. The exchange here may not be in the category of an imagined offense, but do consider the possibility that you, and we, are blowing this out of proportion; maybe those saying "you're done" are being, well, rash.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 2:25 PM on August 25, 2006

Clyde - thanks for your posts, as I have said he's not a bad guy, because of this I really doubt he would actively do anything to hurt my career however I now know he certainly won't be lifting a finger to help and unfortunately up till now he's been a big booster for me.
posted by Cosine at 2:28 PM on August 25, 2006

Racism? It's true the poster says "a lot of my friends are non-white," but that doesn't imply to me that the boss was directly racist, just that extreme anti-terrorist views tend to impact non-Aryan people more immediately. The boss had opinions about terrorism which (I'm guessing) were of the type: "We have to give up liberties in order to confront the terrorist threat that faces us all." That's 1) a common attitude these days, and 2) exactly the kind of thing that makes us libertarian types see red and say things we shouldn't. I seriously doubt the guy was saying "All colored people are terrorists and should be snubbed/deported/killed." That said, I think this is unfair:

What a moron this boss is. It's one thing to have a spat, but another for him not to shake hands over it and move on.

While I strongly disagree with the "OMG terror!" types who are willing to hand over their (and everyone else's) liberties, I respect their opinions in the sense that it's a natural way to feel—it's closely related to the "I'll kill anyone who attacks my family" syndrome, and if you tend to identify your nation with your family (an all too common thing to do) you're going to feel very strongly on the subject, and disagreement is going to seem like an attack on everything you hold dear. I say this not to say hurray for the boss (I'm glad I don't work for him) but so that the poster can see things in a more helpful perspective: apologize in the same way you would if you'd somehow managed to insult his mother, who may be a bitch but is his mother anyway. But for god's sake don't apologize in writing; as others have said, that's just giving ammunition to the enemy. Be sweet as pie for a while and hope it goes away. If it doesn't, try to get another job lined up.

Starving is better than being humiliated by a weasel. Always.
Do not apologize. You were not wrong, and the economy is strong enough in Canada that you'd find work even if you covered every surface of his office in shit, fucked his wife and killed his dog.

While I somewhat disagree with the sentiment, I wish to doff my hat to the superb way in which it was expressed.
posted by languagehat at 2:32 PM on August 25, 2006

Whoa, this thread moves fast. I was responding to reklaw, and I see the poster confirms that the boss is not a racist.
posted by languagehat at 2:34 PM on August 25, 2006

Metafilter: I also think they would understand that I wasn't calling him a Nazi personally.

Seriously, look for a new job and try not to Godwin that one.
posted by dagnyscott at 3:26 PM on August 25, 2006

I still think you could give it a week or so to simmer down. Like you said, he's an old codger, so he may be able to use some of the wisdom he's accumulated over the years to forget and forgive. Next time you can't hold your tongue, just suggest to him that it's not appropriate for work, without expressing an opinion.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 4:38 PM on August 25, 2006

Personally, its not worth it to me to get in an argument about politics. My boss and I have very different political views and I make it a point to just stay away from the topic all together. If the subject comes up again, change the subject onto something more work appropriate.
posted by dward88 at 5:03 PM on August 25, 2006

I'd wait till at least next week to see what happens, but in the meantime you should spend the weekend polishing your resume/CV. Next week see how your boss is, and discreetly see if any of your co-workers have heard anything about the situation.

Once you've had a chance to review your CV, sometime in mid-week you should post your CV to some of the job sites. You should do this as a backup plan in case your boss has taken what you said personally and is going to be vindictive.

As your working for a non-profit HR may be more reasonable than HR in a big corporation. But, you can't assume this, and if your boss has been there a long time he may have connections that you don't. Plus, office politics in smaller organisations can be brutal. So even if you win, you lose (your boss stays as your boss and make your working life uncomfortable/miserable/hell).

Don't rush and assume things will be bad but get that CV ready, this could be an opportunity to get an even better job elsewhere.

Oh, and let us know what happens next week.
posted by zaphod at 5:22 PM on August 25, 2006

These incidents arise naturally to provide concrete reminders that employment is a state of subservience.
posted by nanojath at 8:34 PM on August 25, 2006

From your description of things, it sounds to me like you did the right thing. Ethically speaking, that is. Your boss shouldn't expect his political opinions to go unchallenged just because he's your boss -- and by doing so, he's creating an intimidating work environment.

Of course, this doesn't help your situation, and I'm afraid I don't have any advice that hasn' t been mentioned already. But if worse comes to worse, I'd say that you made a noble sacrifice by standing up for yourself, your coworkers, and what you believe.
posted by treepour at 1:44 PM on August 26, 2006