Aren't Chavez and Bush more similar than people admit?
May 24, 2006 5:28 AM
Bipartite ChavezFilter: Are there any (at least vaguely scientific) polls out there of U.S. public opinion of Hugo Chavez--ideally, with responses broken down by political leanings? As for Question Two,
can anyone explain to me why it seems like so many on the U.S. American Left appear to give Chavez a pass despite the fact that he's guilty of a lot of the things that they hate Bush for? Who explains this well?
can anyone explain to me why it seems like so many on the U.S. American Left appear to give Chavez a pass despite the fact that he's guilty of a lot of the things that they hate Bush for? Who explains this well?
He's guilty of election stealing? Can you support that with any evidence whatsoever, I mean besides Pat Robertson's raving? See the Jimmy Carter FPP on MetaFilter? There's a link that shows a picture of him leading an international delegation of election monitors in Venezuela (among other countries). They said the election was not rigged. I trust that delegation more than I trust you.
Perhaps this answers your question: most of the really severe charges I've heard about Chavez have been unfounded or have been founded upon the anti-chavez opposition in Venezuela; that is, the US-sponsored, monied elite that lost power when Chavez was elected. The fact that he's strident and a clown is annoying to me. The fact that he channels large amounts of oil money to educate, house and generally make life better for poor people in Venezuela doesn't annoy me at all.
posted by sic at 6:14 AM on May 24, 2006
Perhaps this answers your question: most of the really severe charges I've heard about Chavez have been unfounded or have been founded upon the anti-chavez opposition in Venezuela; that is, the US-sponsored, monied elite that lost power when Chavez was elected. The fact that he's strident and a clown is annoying to me. The fact that he channels large amounts of oil money to educate, house and generally make life better for poor people in Venezuela doesn't annoy me at all.
posted by sic at 6:14 AM on May 24, 2006
[edited the question down some with the OPs permission]
posted by jessamyn at 6:36 AM on May 24, 2006
posted by jessamyn at 6:36 AM on May 24, 2006
sic: I thank jessamyn for her editing guidance, but I also want to clarify that I originally mean "if not" in the "but not" sense instead of the "but also" sense. It was ambiguous and ultimately misleading.
posted by kittyprecious at 6:40 AM on May 24, 2006
posted by kittyprecious at 6:40 AM on May 24, 2006
it seems like so many on the U.S. American Left appear to give Chavez a pass despite the fact that he's guilty of a lot of the things that they hate Bush for?
Again, you assume a lot about the "U.S. American Left", which is hardly homogenous in its political and social views — as well as assuming Chavez's "guilt", charges which have not been established outside of talking points disseminated by the Republicans in office.
I encourage you to learn what the term begging the question means.
posted by Mr. Six at 6:51 AM on May 24, 2006
Again, you assume a lot about the "U.S. American Left", which is hardly homogenous in its political and social views — as well as assuming Chavez's "guilt", charges which have not been established outside of talking points disseminated by the Republicans in office.
I encourage you to learn what the term begging the question means.
posted by Mr. Six at 6:51 AM on May 24, 2006
Ok. Let me modify my answer a bit then. Chavez' brand of populism is more palatable than Bush's because he actually helps poor people, whereas Bush uses his populism to start wars that further hurt poor people and further help rich people. To me at least that is a very big distinction.
posted by sic at 6:52 AM on May 24, 2006
posted by sic at 6:52 AM on May 24, 2006
It would be difficult to poll on the subject because of the large percentage of "never heard of" responses.
posted by smackfu at 6:57 AM on May 24, 2006
posted by smackfu at 6:57 AM on May 24, 2006
I haven't seen any credible evidence of warmongering, secret prisons, rollbacks of citizen rights or any of the more obvious Bush violations by Chavez. Mind you, that doesn't mean they aren't happening but that every reference to such things has a clear propagandist veneer rendering any such claim non-credible.
Chavez is a populist, Bush is a corporatist. Chavez is a socialist, Bush is a fascist. Does this help?
posted by shagoth at 7:08 AM on May 24, 2006
Chavez is a populist, Bush is a corporatist. Chavez is a socialist, Bush is a fascist. Does this help?
posted by shagoth at 7:08 AM on May 24, 2006
Mr. Six: I'm not interested in or referring to Republican talking points; my concern is the research done by organizations like Human Rights Watch.
smackfu: Yeah...that would be the major sticking-point and a big reason why I haven't seen many polls of U.S. attitudes toward foreign leaders.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:13 AM on May 24, 2006
smackfu: Yeah...that would be the major sticking-point and a big reason why I haven't seen many polls of U.S. attitudes toward foreign leaders.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:13 AM on May 24, 2006
I think sic's answer sounds about right. Chavez and Bush really aren't similar at all as far as I can tell. Chavez is charismatic for starters.
posted by chunking express at 7:16 AM on May 24, 2006
posted by chunking express at 7:16 AM on May 24, 2006
My take on this is that similarities seen are the result of the fact that the extreme ends of either wing tend towards totalitarianism. Bush is far right (although I still like to think of him as just 'stupid'), Chavez far left. They both are power mongers, even if very different in philosophy.
Also, I have no idea why you think the left in the U.S. give Chavez a free pass. That's a gross generalization. People from any side of the fence who give politicians a free pass are just idiots. Politicians should *never* be given a free pass. Once you drop the accountability from public servants, democracy fails. This is what truly irks thoughtful people about Bush's administration--no accountability.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:18 AM on May 24, 2006
Also, I have no idea why you think the left in the U.S. give Chavez a free pass. That's a gross generalization. People from any side of the fence who give politicians a free pass are just idiots. Politicians should *never* be given a free pass. Once you drop the accountability from public servants, democracy fails. This is what truly irks thoughtful people about Bush's administration--no accountability.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:18 AM on May 24, 2006
mcstayinskool: I didn't say the Left overall, just that it seems that many do, but I may be colored by a particular number of my acquaintances, with whom I otherwise see eye-to-eye.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:48 AM on May 24, 2006
posted by kittyprecious at 7:48 AM on May 24, 2006
so many on the U.S. American Left appear to give Chavez a pass
I'm speaking here as someone on the U.S. Left who does not give Chavez a pass, but I would guess that there are a lot of people who have made a snap judgment that someone who talks the talk and gives Bush the willies must be okay.
I lived in Venezuela back in the eighties, when it was run by that monied oligarchy. I returned for a visit last November. My take on Chavez is that it isn't a simple is-he-good-or-is-he-the-devil question. I'm not saying that the way it was before was better; certainly a country with Venezuela's resources could have, and should have, done better by its people. But I don't think that Chavez will leave Venezuela better off overall than it was when he found it. He led a failed coup attempt in 1993; I can't put any faith in his commitment to democracy. On my last visit I found that the country felt less free than it did in the eighties. There were large banners with Chavez' image everywhere, in the best "Dear Leader" style of iconography. There was an election coming up, but every candidate posed with Chavez in the campaign posters (and no oppostion candidate posters were to be seen.) Every purchase requires recording the cedula number of the purchaser, no matter how small. The government knows exactly how its citizens are spending their money, what books they are buying, what food they are eating. Ostensibly this is to prevent income tax evasion but the net result is chilling.
The thing I think that Bush and Chavez have in common is that history will be kind to neither of them.
posted by ambrosia at 9:26 AM on May 24, 2006
I'm speaking here as someone on the U.S. Left who does not give Chavez a pass, but I would guess that there are a lot of people who have made a snap judgment that someone who talks the talk and gives Bush the willies must be okay.
I lived in Venezuela back in the eighties, when it was run by that monied oligarchy. I returned for a visit last November. My take on Chavez is that it isn't a simple is-he-good-or-is-he-the-devil question. I'm not saying that the way it was before was better; certainly a country with Venezuela's resources could have, and should have, done better by its people. But I don't think that Chavez will leave Venezuela better off overall than it was when he found it. He led a failed coup attempt in 1993; I can't put any faith in his commitment to democracy. On my last visit I found that the country felt less free than it did in the eighties. There were large banners with Chavez' image everywhere, in the best "Dear Leader" style of iconography. There was an election coming up, but every candidate posed with Chavez in the campaign posters (and no oppostion candidate posters were to be seen.) Every purchase requires recording the cedula number of the purchaser, no matter how small. The government knows exactly how its citizens are spending their money, what books they are buying, what food they are eating. Ostensibly this is to prevent income tax evasion but the net result is chilling.
The thing I think that Bush and Chavez have in common is that history will be kind to neither of them.
posted by ambrosia at 9:26 AM on May 24, 2006
These people on the American Left that you speak of, are generally intelligent people? Do they think through things? Are they at all educated about Chavez, or do they just side with anyone anti-Bush?
I think the thing is, is that people tend to split politics up into two teams, and decide that one team is Bad, and one team is Good, and then they operate as if they must reconcile all the inconvenient facts of the world so that they adhere to this dichotomy. They do it without even being aware that they are doing it. And everybody does it to some extent. I do it.
This is not to say that Chavez really is, or isn't, "guilty" of a lot of the same things Bush is. I don't really know. I try not to have a strong opinion and defer to those who are educated about it. My father was actually in Venezuela during the last election, working with Carter to certify the results. He seemed to feel that the election was not rigged. For what that's worth.
posted by fugitivefromchaingang at 1:30 PM on May 24, 2006
I think the thing is, is that people tend to split politics up into two teams, and decide that one team is Bad, and one team is Good, and then they operate as if they must reconcile all the inconvenient facts of the world so that they adhere to this dichotomy. They do it without even being aware that they are doing it. And everybody does it to some extent. I do it.
This is not to say that Chavez really is, or isn't, "guilty" of a lot of the same things Bush is. I don't really know. I try not to have a strong opinion and defer to those who are educated about it. My father was actually in Venezuela during the last election, working with Carter to certify the results. He seemed to feel that the election was not rigged. For what that's worth.
posted by fugitivefromchaingang at 1:30 PM on May 24, 2006
I personally give Chavez a pass because I don't live under his arbitrary attacks on liberty. I can support people thousands of miles away who want to voluntarily chose a government that supresses their rights, as long as my neighbors and I have liberty. If the Warsaw Pact has taught us anything, it is that freedom must come from within, and not from without. Reagan didn't destroy the Soviet Empire, Poles, Cheks, Slovenians, Latvians, Azerbijanis and Russians did it from the inside. If the people of Venezuala want to live under a dictator, that is their business. Our supreme law says that we are not even a real country unless our government obeys certain rules.
I hate the current government (of both parties) because they have been attacking my constitution non-stop for the last 50 years and probably won't stop until we are living in Venezuala, or Mexico. (with snow)
Hugo Chavez is no threat to me personally, GWB and all his cronies and "loyal opposition" are.
posted by Megafly at 6:15 PM on May 24, 2006
I hate the current government (of both parties) because they have been attacking my constitution non-stop for the last 50 years and probably won't stop until we are living in Venezuala, or Mexico. (with snow)
Hugo Chavez is no threat to me personally, GWB and all his cronies and "loyal opposition" are.
posted by Megafly at 6:15 PM on May 24, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
The problem is our brains don't work very well.
posted by BackwardsCity at 5:53 AM on May 24, 2006