Need to have the exact same experiences as someone else?
December 6, 2024 9:41 PM
My mother tells me that when I was a toddler, I'd follow her around copying everything she did, and when she'd do something like get hiccups that I couldn't copy, I'd have an absolute meltdown. As an adult, when I'm close to someone, I still feel like I need to have the same experiences they're having. Why?
This only happens with people I'm particularly close with- so usually only one, maybe two people at a time. I feel threatened when they have an intense or interesting experience that I'm not having.
It could be an experience that I wouldn't want otherwise - let's say, being stung by a hornet or falling into a dumpster full of garbage. When I find out that they've had that experience, my reaction is less "I wish I was having that experience too" and more "It's wrong that we're not sharing all of our experiences - that's the natural way of things, and this is a strange aberration."
I'd never heard anyone else talk about anything similar, never read anything about it in books - but recently, I saw a show where two identical twins did everything the exact same, down to weighing their food to ensure that they had equal portions. That made me go "Wow, this is an actual thing!" and prompted me to ask this question... but what is it? Why am I like this? Is anyone else like this? Does it have a name? Can I read more about it somewhere?
This only happens with people I'm particularly close with- so usually only one, maybe two people at a time. I feel threatened when they have an intense or interesting experience that I'm not having.
It could be an experience that I wouldn't want otherwise - let's say, being stung by a hornet or falling into a dumpster full of garbage. When I find out that they've had that experience, my reaction is less "I wish I was having that experience too" and more "It's wrong that we're not sharing all of our experiences - that's the natural way of things, and this is a strange aberration."
I'd never heard anyone else talk about anything similar, never read anything about it in books - but recently, I saw a show where two identical twins did everything the exact same, down to weighing their food to ensure that they had equal portions. That made me go "Wow, this is an actual thing!" and prompted me to ask this question... but what is it? Why am I like this? Is anyone else like this? Does it have a name? Can I read more about it somewhere?
I think parents often feel this way about their babies- when I sent my kids off to daycare and school, it was super weird and unsettling to know that they were having experiences without me, especially since, until that age, we had been inseparable, and doubly because they were nonspeaking so there was literally no way to know how their day had been. I would observe them for tiny clues, like blotchy skin that indicated lengthy crying, and play detective with the smudges of food, ink, dirt, and tear tracks on their faces, hands, and clothes. It still feels weird to know that they have had, and will have many many more, experiences that are totally separate from me.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:32 AM on December 7
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:32 AM on December 7
This may just be insecurity or jealousy, but I kind of wonder if you experienced vanishing twin syndrome.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:45 AM on December 7
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:45 AM on December 7
My son was like this as a toddler. Now he still has strong tendencies to want to emulate me more than average. Personally i have always assumed that it is connected to being on the autism spectrum, but could be wrong.
posted by 15L06 at 1:14 AM on December 7
posted by 15L06 at 1:14 AM on December 7
[One removed. In trying to help OP here, probably best not to use adult psychological models for behavior OP has had since early childhood (ie, if there is more info about underlying personality or whatever, okay, but just suggesting something like "bad boundaries" isn't really applicable to a young child) ]
posted by taz at 1:21 AM on December 7
posted by taz at 1:21 AM on December 7
Personally i have always assumed that it is connected to being on the autism spectrum, but could be wrong.
Mirroring behaviour is very typical of autistic people. Like all autistic traits, not all autistic people do this, and not everyone who does this is autistic.
Examples of how this often presents is when we accidentally mimic a person's accent, or their body posture, or speech patterns. I have no idea why this happens specifically for autistic people, but I suspect it's got to do with having to consciously learn to do things like facial expressions, tone of voice, and social interaction that other people learn intuitively.
posted by Zumbador at 3:04 AM on December 7
Mirroring behaviour is very typical of autistic people. Like all autistic traits, not all autistic people do this, and not everyone who does this is autistic.
Examples of how this often presents is when we accidentally mimic a person's accent, or their body posture, or speech patterns. I have no idea why this happens specifically for autistic people, but I suspect it's got to do with having to consciously learn to do things like facial expressions, tone of voice, and social interaction that other people learn intuitively.
posted by Zumbador at 3:04 AM on December 7
Mirroring behaviour is very typical of autistic people. Like all autistic traits, not all autistic people do this, and not everyone who does this is autistic.
Bingo. It's mirroring. All animals learn to make sense of the world this way. Babies, monkeys, puppies, etc. watch and learn.
Some people get more dopamine pleasure from this than others and continue to mirror throughout their lives.
I definitely would never pathologise this in any way--it's just how some brains work.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:19 AM on December 7
Bingo. It's mirroring. All animals learn to make sense of the world this way. Babies, monkeys, puppies, etc. watch and learn.
Some people get more dopamine pleasure from this than others and continue to mirror throughout their lives.
I definitely would never pathologise this in any way--it's just how some brains work.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:19 AM on December 7
Mirror neurons; yes.
posted by mightshould at 4:48 AM on December 7
posted by mightshould at 4:48 AM on December 7
I'm confused by the deletion reason given for a previous answer, as this is very much about boundaries. I'd be looking at ideas like enmeshment, whether there were childhood experiences or experiences with your family as a child that eroded the idea that people could and should individuate at developmentally appropriate levels. Appropriate boundaries for children are obviously different than appropriate boundaries for adults, but not allowing children to have boundaries and/or not supporting the development of individual personhood in kids can create problems.
Mirror neurons and such describe empathy, not feeling threatened because someone has an experience you didn't personally experience. Feeling "threatened" indicates a level of anxiety that would seem to be coming from survival-level fears of not getting essential needs met. Were there pressures, subtle or overt, in your childhood that made you feel like you had to "fit in" in order to receive love? That only people "like us" (for any definition of "us") were worthwhile? That you were not allowed to have your own experience and still be understood and valued?
posted by lapis at 5:49 AM on December 7
Mirror neurons and such describe empathy, not feeling threatened because someone has an experience you didn't personally experience. Feeling "threatened" indicates a level of anxiety that would seem to be coming from survival-level fears of not getting essential needs met. Were there pressures, subtle or overt, in your childhood that made you feel like you had to "fit in" in order to receive love? That only people "like us" (for any definition of "us") were worthwhile? That you were not allowed to have your own experience and still be understood and valued?
posted by lapis at 5:49 AM on December 7
I don't see this as autistic mirroring at all.
I am not sure that the toddler behavior and the adult feelings are even related in a developmental way. The toddler behavior is typical. My friend's toddler once had an hour long meltdown because she had a red napkin and he had a blue napkin and he wanted to be the same. Little kids are learning how TO BE and how to be part of a group and they become extremely literal in the process.
For the adult feelings: This does not sound like autism to me except in the most superficial way, the way a wink is like a blink. I mean, OP MIGHT have austim because anyone might but their post here certainly does not sound like a reason to diagnose them as having autistic traits (and I say this as someone who has some knowledge about autism, both personal and beyond, people will either believe my ability to weigh in or not.)
It sounds like an intense longing to share as part of your attachment style, which despite self help books is not something that only comes in three flavors. I would not say "poor boundaries" because that is pathologizing. This seems more like a desire for intense attachment, a feeling that different intense experiences reminds you that in fact we humans are ultimately solitary in some ways, and for you, that reminder disrupts the easiness of being connected, it causes you anxiety to be reminded of the fact that we are not capable of being connected in every way. This is a human trait, people have it to greater or lesser degree, for some people it can be fleetingly intolerable.
Some people feel threatened or overwhelmed by reminders of connection because autonomy makes them feel safe. Others feel the opposite. There is nothing inherently wrong with the feeling unless you act in ways that denies your loved one their autonomy.
posted by ponie at 5:58 AM on December 7
I am not sure that the toddler behavior and the adult feelings are even related in a developmental way. The toddler behavior is typical. My friend's toddler once had an hour long meltdown because she had a red napkin and he had a blue napkin and he wanted to be the same. Little kids are learning how TO BE and how to be part of a group and they become extremely literal in the process.
For the adult feelings: This does not sound like autism to me except in the most superficial way, the way a wink is like a blink. I mean, OP MIGHT have austim because anyone might but their post here certainly does not sound like a reason to diagnose them as having autistic traits (and I say this as someone who has some knowledge about autism, both personal and beyond, people will either believe my ability to weigh in or not.)
It sounds like an intense longing to share as part of your attachment style, which despite self help books is not something that only comes in three flavors. I would not say "poor boundaries" because that is pathologizing. This seems more like a desire for intense attachment, a feeling that different intense experiences reminds you that in fact we humans are ultimately solitary in some ways, and for you, that reminder disrupts the easiness of being connected, it causes you anxiety to be reminded of the fact that we are not capable of being connected in every way. This is a human trait, people have it to greater or lesser degree, for some people it can be fleetingly intolerable.
Some people feel threatened or overwhelmed by reminders of connection because autonomy makes them feel safe. Others feel the opposite. There is nothing inherently wrong with the feeling unless you act in ways that denies your loved one their autonomy.
posted by ponie at 5:58 AM on December 7
Nthing the idea that this issue IS about boundaries for OP in the present moment: a strong desire to possess what other people possess or embody (in this case: experiences, attention, interest, etc.) followed by irritation or upset when that is impossible - this shows a blurring in OP's mind of the difference/separation between self and other. Autism spectrum disorder does not include within its vast umbrella any notion of "person becomes upset because mirroring is not possible". That is not a symptom, afaik.
OP's boundary issue may have originated as enmeshment. Enmeshment can and does exist in early childhood in a lot of family systems, and enmeshment is usually the result of weak boundaries within the family system.
I also disagree with the idea that saying OP has a boundary issue is attacking or disparaging towards OP. Boundary issues are both common and normal, working on boundaries is something we all need to do to various extents. Boundaries are closely woven together with attachment, our attachment systems almost completely determine the way we practice interpersonal boundaries. Will comments now be deleted for discussing OP's potential attachment issues too? Wondering whether this is now the new norm on Ask MetaFilter: will mods now be deleting comments they just... personally disagree with?
posted by MiraK at 6:01 AM on December 7
OP's boundary issue may have originated as enmeshment. Enmeshment can and does exist in early childhood in a lot of family systems, and enmeshment is usually the result of weak boundaries within the family system.
I also disagree with the idea that saying OP has a boundary issue is attacking or disparaging towards OP. Boundary issues are both common and normal, working on boundaries is something we all need to do to various extents. Boundaries are closely woven together with attachment, our attachment systems almost completely determine the way we practice interpersonal boundaries. Will comments now be deleted for discussing OP's potential attachment issues too? Wondering whether this is now the new norm on Ask MetaFilter: will mods now be deleting comments they just... personally disagree with?
posted by MiraK at 6:01 AM on December 7
A common theory in child development is Separation-Individuation.
It posits that we do not begin life as individual beings, separated from our mothers. A process takes place in the early years of our lives where we grow and become our own selves. Until that happens we are effectively one.
It is not uncommon to want a taste of that once again, to be so close to someone that our identities merge. At a guess that might be what you’re reaching for.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:37 AM on December 7
It posits that we do not begin life as individual beings, separated from our mothers. A process takes place in the early years of our lives where we grow and become our own selves. Until that happens we are effectively one.
It is not uncommon to want a taste of that once again, to be so close to someone that our identities merge. At a guess that might be what you’re reaching for.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:37 AM on December 7
disagree with the idea that saying OP has a boundary issue is attacking or disparaging towards OP. Boundary issues are both common and normal
the mod reason given for deletion is the comment said "bad boundaries" [emphasis added]
Can I read more about it somewhere?
the mirror-phase as a formative function of the I [Jacques Lacan, via newleftreview.org (7-page pdf)/wiki]
posted by HearHere at 6:38 AM on December 7
the mod reason given for deletion is the comment said "bad boundaries" [emphasis added]
Can I read more about it somewhere?
the mirror-phase as a formative function of the I [Jacques Lacan, via newleftreview.org (7-page pdf)/wiki]
posted by HearHere at 6:38 AM on December 7
> the mod reason given for deletion is the comment said "bad boundaries"
Yes, bad boundaries, not bad OP. It's a bit much to be saying that the word "bad" cannot be used in relation to anything at all connected with OP, otherwise we are disparaging OP as a person. Good grief.
Also, just to clarify for OP and this thread's benefit, the Lacanian Mirror Stage is not connected with mirror neurons, autism, the concept of empathy, or other concepts mentioned in this thread in connection to "mirroring". The Lacanian Mirror Stage is closely related to comments on this thread that discuss boundaries, enmeshment, and individuation - not the comments that discuss autism, mirror neurons, etc. I'm not quibbling with what HearHere is saying, because the Lacanian concept ius useful and pertinent here - but a clarification is needed on this thread because the terminology being used could be confusing given many of the comments here.
The "mirroring" in Lacan's work refers to the process by which a caregiver consistently reflecting back to an infant or child what they see in the child, which allows the child to know themself and put words to what is inside themself - thus leading to the child developing a solid base conception of who they are which is separate and unique. That would be "good mirroring" or "adequate mirroring". Inadequate mirroring in a childhood environment is when the caregiver reflects only what the caregiver wishes to see in the child, or what the caregiver is feeling and thus narcissistically assumes the child is also feeling, or what the caregiver sees in themselves which they are simply stuck in and unable to think beyond so there is literally no concept of the child in the caregiver's mind. This type of inadequacy arises from caregivers feeling enmeshed or having poor boundaries themselves, and causes in turn enmeshment and poor boundaries and poor separation within the child as well.
The above is a very simplified explanation of the concept of mirroring in the Lacanian sense, actually I am explaining it from the corollary end, so to speak, using object relations perspectives because Lacan is.. a dense read. Please don't take it as the final word on anything. The paper HearHere linked to is a much fuller explanation, and I can recommend more reading if anyone is interested.
posted by MiraK at 7:02 AM on December 7
Yes, bad boundaries, not bad OP. It's a bit much to be saying that the word "bad" cannot be used in relation to anything at all connected with OP, otherwise we are disparaging OP as a person. Good grief.
Also, just to clarify for OP and this thread's benefit, the Lacanian Mirror Stage is not connected with mirror neurons, autism, the concept of empathy, or other concepts mentioned in this thread in connection to "mirroring". The Lacanian Mirror Stage is closely related to comments on this thread that discuss boundaries, enmeshment, and individuation - not the comments that discuss autism, mirror neurons, etc. I'm not quibbling with what HearHere is saying, because the Lacanian concept ius useful and pertinent here - but a clarification is needed on this thread because the terminology being used could be confusing given many of the comments here.
The "mirroring" in Lacan's work refers to the process by which a caregiver consistently reflecting back to an infant or child what they see in the child, which allows the child to know themself and put words to what is inside themself - thus leading to the child developing a solid base conception of who they are which is separate and unique. That would be "good mirroring" or "adequate mirroring". Inadequate mirroring in a childhood environment is when the caregiver reflects only what the caregiver wishes to see in the child, or what the caregiver is feeling and thus narcissistically assumes the child is also feeling, or what the caregiver sees in themselves which they are simply stuck in and unable to think beyond so there is literally no concept of the child in the caregiver's mind. This type of inadequacy arises from caregivers feeling enmeshed or having poor boundaries themselves, and causes in turn enmeshment and poor boundaries and poor separation within the child as well.
The above is a very simplified explanation of the concept of mirroring in the Lacanian sense, actually I am explaining it from the corollary end, so to speak, using object relations perspectives because Lacan is.. a dense read. Please don't take it as the final word on anything. The paper HearHere linked to is a much fuller explanation, and I can recommend more reading if anyone is interested.
posted by MiraK at 7:02 AM on December 7
Upon re-reading the thread, let me also note that the Lacanian Mirror Stage has nothing to do with mimesis (something HearHere posted and linked earlier in the thread). I'm not sure if HearHere thinks they are related, so this is not a correction aimed at them. Just, due to the confusing multiplicity of meanings of the word "mirror" being used on this thread, a clarification may be necessary.
posted by MiraK at 7:20 AM on December 7
posted by MiraK at 7:20 AM on December 7
Lacan's mirror stage has nothing to do with this nor with wanting to have the same experiences as other people.
Edited to note: agree with Mira K
posted by ojocaliente at 7:22 AM on December 7
Edited to note: agree with Mira K
posted by ojocaliente at 7:22 AM on December 7
When I had my first child, for the first few months, the baby and I were ONE. I felt, quite literally, that we were the one and same person, and that there was no separation between us. Like we were one body. When I was apart, I could feel my body empty, aching. Remember, I had previously carried my child for 9 months, so that link had not been broken yet, if only mentally. This is a very strong, intense feeling.
Anyway, as with so many other mums’ experiences, my child and I slowly diverged to two different people with different needs and wants and experiences. I wouldn’t be surprised if you felt something similar, but on the other side. You may have taken longer to separate and individuate, which is why you remember it more clearly than others. But I think nothing you said here is out of ordinary, even for neurotypicals.
I think your adult feelings may be separate, but you had pulled your childhood memories as a usedul link, and as a way to create a story to explain who you are.
posted by moiraine at 7:31 AM on December 7
Anyway, as with so many other mums’ experiences, my child and I slowly diverged to two different people with different needs and wants and experiences. I wouldn’t be surprised if you felt something similar, but on the other side. You may have taken longer to separate and individuate, which is why you remember it more clearly than others. But I think nothing you said here is out of ordinary, even for neurotypicals.
I think your adult feelings may be separate, but you had pulled your childhood memories as a usedul link, and as a way to create a story to explain who you are.
posted by moiraine at 7:31 AM on December 7
Also, as someone above mentioned, toddlers (and older children!) have meltdowns over literally everything. The other day, my preschooler had a meltdown because I refused to smell her feet.
posted by moiraine at 7:36 AM on December 7
posted by moiraine at 7:36 AM on December 7
MiraK, writing as someone who has been deleted many times & especially as someone deleted on Ask in the past, i continue to be, respectfully, in support of the mod's decision in this instance. having not seen the comment, i do not know the full content, i.e. how it might be (mis)interpreted. whoever asked this question did so anonymously, so making a clarification or responding to a comment themselves would be complicated. for these reasons, it seems to me wise to err on the side of caution.
a clarification may be necessary
Lacan, in the linked essay, writes:
posted by HearHere at 4:15 AM on December 8
a clarification may be necessary
Lacan, in the linked essay, writes:
But the facts of mimicry are no less instructive when conceived as cases of heteromorphic identification, in as much as they raise the problem of the signification of space for the living organism [...] recall how Roger Caillois [...] classif[ies] morphological mimicry... [wiki]i agree that Lacan is a dense read :) MiraK, i will also say that i appreciate the care in your writing. i would be happy to hear any recommendations you have for additional/alternative reading & i imagine OP would as well 🙂
posted by HearHere at 4:15 AM on December 8
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posted by knobknosher at 11:54 PM on December 6