Need Advice on Handling My Teen Daughter’s Drinking Confession
November 3, 2024 12:56 AM Subscribe
I’m feeling out of my depth and could really use some support. My 16-year-old daughter recently admitted to drinking alcohol, and I’m grateful she trusted me enough to share this. But now, I’m facing an even more complicated situation.
Last night she came home late with red eyes. I was asleep, and my wife became suspicious of smoking weed. The next day asked me to speak with her. I had a private conversation with her, where I asked about alcohol and other substances. She denied it. I promised her that she could tell me anything, and I’d keep it confidential unless her safety was at risk or if I felt I couldn’t help and needed to find someone who could. I assured her that if it ever came to that, I’d tell her first before involving anyone else.
With that reassurance, she admitted to drinking. I’m grateful she opened up, but now I’m worried this may not be the first time, and I’m feeling deeply concerned.
• Family History: My father’s drinking led to emotional neglect and abuse when I was growing up. This makes me particularly hurt, sad, and fearful about my daughter’s safety and the potential dangers of substance use.
•. Daughter’s Challenges: She has attention issues and dyslexia, making school and focus a constant challenge. I worry that drinking or experimenting with substances could worsen these struggles.
• Parental Dynamics: I haven’t shared any of this with my wife yet. My wife has a very strict, zero-tolerance stance on substance use and has even threatened to abandon our daughter if she ever used drugs or alcohol. To be clear that’s just intended to keep her in line. I don’t believe it would ever come to that —but I feel stuck and unsure of how to handle this delicate situation.
•.Social Concerns: My daughter’s friends are important to her, and I don’t want to damage her social life or push her away. At the same time, I need to find a way to set boundaries and keep her safe.
My Questions:
• How do I support my daughter, maintain her trust, and guide her toward safer choices without isolating her socially or damaging our relationship?
• How do I handle this situation with my wife while protecting my daughter’s trust and managing the volatility of our family dynamics?
• How can I manage my own fears, given my past experiences with emotional abuse and my daughter’s learning challenges?
Any advice, support, or shared experiences would mean the world to me. Thank you for listening.
Last night she came home late with red eyes. I was asleep, and my wife became suspicious of smoking weed. The next day asked me to speak with her. I had a private conversation with her, where I asked about alcohol and other substances. She denied it. I promised her that she could tell me anything, and I’d keep it confidential unless her safety was at risk or if I felt I couldn’t help and needed to find someone who could. I assured her that if it ever came to that, I’d tell her first before involving anyone else.
With that reassurance, she admitted to drinking. I’m grateful she opened up, but now I’m worried this may not be the first time, and I’m feeling deeply concerned.
• Family History: My father’s drinking led to emotional neglect and abuse when I was growing up. This makes me particularly hurt, sad, and fearful about my daughter’s safety and the potential dangers of substance use.
•. Daughter’s Challenges: She has attention issues and dyslexia, making school and focus a constant challenge. I worry that drinking or experimenting with substances could worsen these struggles.
• Parental Dynamics: I haven’t shared any of this with my wife yet. My wife has a very strict, zero-tolerance stance on substance use and has even threatened to abandon our daughter if she ever used drugs or alcohol. To be clear that’s just intended to keep her in line. I don’t believe it would ever come to that —but I feel stuck and unsure of how to handle this delicate situation.
•.Social Concerns: My daughter’s friends are important to her, and I don’t want to damage her social life or push her away. At the same time, I need to find a way to set boundaries and keep her safe.
My Questions:
• How do I support my daughter, maintain her trust, and guide her toward safer choices without isolating her socially or damaging our relationship?
• How do I handle this situation with my wife while protecting my daughter’s trust and managing the volatility of our family dynamics?
• How can I manage my own fears, given my past experiences with emotional abuse and my daughter’s learning challenges?
Any advice, support, or shared experiences would mean the world to me. Thank you for listening.
She’s sixteen. How many of us drank at age 16 against the advice of our parents and turned out just fine. You had your chance to had a talk about it, now keep an eye out and move on. Unpack the stuff about your dad in therapy.
However. It sounds like you are concerned that this revelation will cause problems with your wife. I don’t see the need to tell her. If you must tell her, take your child’s side and stick together, even if that means building a life away from your wife. Bullying and abandoning a child is a great way to reinforce a drinking habit, not eradicate it.
posted by shock muppet at 1:17 AM on November 3 [34 favorites]
However. It sounds like you are concerned that this revelation will cause problems with your wife. I don’t see the need to tell her. If you must tell her, take your child’s side and stick together, even if that means building a life away from your wife. Bullying and abandoning a child is a great way to reinforce a drinking habit, not eradicate it.
posted by shock muppet at 1:17 AM on November 3 [34 favorites]
I'm pretty alarmed by your question and what you are stating the problem is. From your description, your wife has said that they will abandon your child. Period.
But if I could then take it further, your wife who has said they will abandon your child asked you to go and convince your child to confess to the thing she would abandon her for, knowing that 1. she would abandon your child and 2. your daughter trusts you and you could sneak a confession out of her.
This is incredibly manipulative, if not outright abuse (of your daughter? of you?). I agree that you need to get into therapy and it sounds like you need a safety plan for your child.
If you had a healthy relationship, I would say that you could have a real conversation with your child about your concerns that could both educate her and build a more adult and trusting relationship with her. But now you are creating a dynamic where you must lie to your wife to protect your child from extreme and life altering repercussions. This is bananas and I am alarmed you buried the lede because this is somehow ok?
posted by Toddles at 1:46 AM on November 3 [44 favorites]
But if I could then take it further, your wife who has said they will abandon your child asked you to go and convince your child to confess to the thing she would abandon her for, knowing that 1. she would abandon your child and 2. your daughter trusts you and you could sneak a confession out of her.
This is incredibly manipulative, if not outright abuse (of your daughter? of you?). I agree that you need to get into therapy and it sounds like you need a safety plan for your child.
If you had a healthy relationship, I would say that you could have a real conversation with your child about your concerns that could both educate her and build a more adult and trusting relationship with her. But now you are creating a dynamic where you must lie to your wife to protect your child from extreme and life altering repercussions. This is bananas and I am alarmed you buried the lede because this is somehow ok?
posted by Toddles at 1:46 AM on November 3 [44 favorites]
Agree with everything above 100%. But to your question, ask your daughter if she wants to be drinking, if she’s doing it more to fit in, I was “given a pass” when I said “naw man, my family are all alcoholics”. If your kids preppy that might not fly, and be more shameful but in my burnout crew it gave a little free even. Kids… smh. I know someone else who got away with “I’m allergic”.
posted by Iteki at 1:06 AM on November 3 [6 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 1:06 AM on November 3 [6 favorites]
16 is a completely normal age to start trying alcohol. I think it’s important that teens have experience knowing how they feel and act while inebriated, especially before leaving home for college, so they’re not completely out of their depth when no longer near their guardians. It’s good that she told you, that means she trusts you. Please don’t dissolve that trust by telling your wife.
I think it’s okay to make some boundaries and explain them to her clearly, while also explaining that ideally she would not drink at all. It’s completely possible to maintain a social life as a teen and be sober - if it’s not possible for her, the problem is her friends and she will need your support while she steps back from those friends makes new ones. But if she does drink, there should be clear lines that she really can’t cross.
If she’s trusting you, you have to trust her to do things too. Some suggestions: no driving while drunk or being in cars driven by anyone inebriated, no excessive or binge drinking - so no multiple times a week and not enough alcohol to cause black outs or other extreme effects (for a new drinker that’s probably a two or three drink limit), no letting it interfere with achieving her goals like reasonable grades or participating in activities she is passionate about (so no drinking before test days, no drinking before stressful performances or big due dates), no accepting drinks from strangers, no other drugs or substances. She could still have a beer on an occasional Saturday night and be a completely average teen.
I think you personally should consider therapy for working on your own parental stuff. You might be surprised how much more of a confidant parent you can become if you work through things you experienced while being parented in the first place. I also think the thing with your wife is troubling. It’s normal for one parent to keep innocuous secrets about their teen kid from the other (the first thing that comes to mind is if a teen is sexually active and feels okay confiding in and asking questions of one parent but the other would prefer to live in ignorance, but ultimately wouldn’t blow up about it.) Part of the teen and parent dynamic is developing individual relationships with each other, rather than both parents being such a unified front. But the threats of abandonment to keep the kid in line? That’s a great way to keep your kid from ever telling you anything, and a great way to set a horrible precedent for future troubles. So, frankly, if you can work through some childhood trauma and be a better parent and adult, it could help you communicate with your wife about what a shitty thing she is doing when she says things like that.
I come from a family with a history of addiction, though it’s often been other drugs and things. I definitely have the tendencies myself. Growing up my family was all about clear communication and openness about these things. Knowing that my dad struggled with addictive behaviors (luckily never any hard drugs or dangerous activities), and being able to learn about myself through his experiences, really helped. We were allowed small sips of alcohol at family gatherings from about age 10, so by the time anybody in my extended family was old enough to access it regularly it was completely unexciting. In college when I caught myself leaning into certain maladaptive addictive behaviors, I was able to reel it back, and talk to my dad about it, with no fear of stigma. He had done the work, growing up with addicts in his family, and my mom was supportive and always curious, always down to do research and learn. I’ve got my beef with how they were as parents but it’s all neurodivergent things. Their approach to addiction, drugs and various illicit things, and the boundaries they had about them in their home and family, were always excellent. They were mostly - you can talk about anything, ask questions about anything, always be smart, call us if you don’t feel safe, take care of your friends, don’t do anything to ruin your life in the short or long term, but if you do, tell us about it so we can help.
posted by Mizu at 1:08 AM on November 3 [26 favorites]
I think it’s okay to make some boundaries and explain them to her clearly, while also explaining that ideally she would not drink at all. It’s completely possible to maintain a social life as a teen and be sober - if it’s not possible for her, the problem is her friends and she will need your support while she steps back from those friends makes new ones. But if she does drink, there should be clear lines that she really can’t cross.
If she’s trusting you, you have to trust her to do things too. Some suggestions: no driving while drunk or being in cars driven by anyone inebriated, no excessive or binge drinking - so no multiple times a week and not enough alcohol to cause black outs or other extreme effects (for a new drinker that’s probably a two or three drink limit), no letting it interfere with achieving her goals like reasonable grades or participating in activities she is passionate about (so no drinking before test days, no drinking before stressful performances or big due dates), no accepting drinks from strangers, no other drugs or substances. She could still have a beer on an occasional Saturday night and be a completely average teen.
I think you personally should consider therapy for working on your own parental stuff. You might be surprised how much more of a confidant parent you can become if you work through things you experienced while being parented in the first place. I also think the thing with your wife is troubling. It’s normal for one parent to keep innocuous secrets about their teen kid from the other (the first thing that comes to mind is if a teen is sexually active and feels okay confiding in and asking questions of one parent but the other would prefer to live in ignorance, but ultimately wouldn’t blow up about it.) Part of the teen and parent dynamic is developing individual relationships with each other, rather than both parents being such a unified front. But the threats of abandonment to keep the kid in line? That’s a great way to keep your kid from ever telling you anything, and a great way to set a horrible precedent for future troubles. So, frankly, if you can work through some childhood trauma and be a better parent and adult, it could help you communicate with your wife about what a shitty thing she is doing when she says things like that.
I come from a family with a history of addiction, though it’s often been other drugs and things. I definitely have the tendencies myself. Growing up my family was all about clear communication and openness about these things. Knowing that my dad struggled with addictive behaviors (luckily never any hard drugs or dangerous activities), and being able to learn about myself through his experiences, really helped. We were allowed small sips of alcohol at family gatherings from about age 10, so by the time anybody in my extended family was old enough to access it regularly it was completely unexciting. In college when I caught myself leaning into certain maladaptive addictive behaviors, I was able to reel it back, and talk to my dad about it, with no fear of stigma. He had done the work, growing up with addicts in his family, and my mom was supportive and always curious, always down to do research and learn. I’ve got my beef with how they were as parents but it’s all neurodivergent things. Their approach to addiction, drugs and various illicit things, and the boundaries they had about them in their home and family, were always excellent. They were mostly - you can talk about anything, ask questions about anything, always be smart, call us if you don’t feel safe, take care of your friends, don’t do anything to ruin your life in the short or long term, but if you do, tell us about it so we can help.
posted by Mizu at 1:08 AM on November 3 [26 favorites]
The complex family history not withstanding please take a deep breath. She could buy and drink alcohol legally in some European countries at age 16. At 16 she is meant to be exploring. She was not coming home completely wasted and she trusts you enough to be honest. Mizu has great suggestions for talking to her about limits around this. Start there. The other stuff you have to unpack in therapy for you and perhaps your wife.
posted by koahiatamadl at 2:01 AM on November 3 [21 favorites]
posted by koahiatamadl at 2:01 AM on November 3 [21 favorites]
The risks around guilt & shame & secrets & parental over-reaction seem rather larger than the risks of underage drinking in this case.
Make sure your daughter knows that you love & support her no matter what - and that she's always got a safe way to get home if she ever needs it when she’s out with friends.
You have a great opening here to demonstrate calm, patient & loving acceptance.
posted by rd45 at 2:13 AM on November 3 [34 favorites]
Make sure your daughter knows that you love & support her no matter what - and that she's always got a safe way to get home if she ever needs it when she’s out with friends.
You have a great opening here to demonstrate calm, patient & loving acceptance.
posted by rd45 at 2:13 AM on November 3 [34 favorites]
Your daughter’s behavior doesn’t seem terribly concerning. I’d focus on making sure she knows she never, ever has to stay somewhere she feels pressured to use substances she doesn’t want to, or to get in a car with a drunk driver - that you will come get her or get a rideshare for her any time without question.
I’d focus much more of your energy on whatever is going on with your wife. I would suggest you get into therapy as a precursor to asking your wife to do some family therapy.
posted by Stacey at 2:23 AM on November 3 [11 favorites]
I’d focus much more of your energy on whatever is going on with your wife. I would suggest you get into therapy as a precursor to asking your wife to do some family therapy.
posted by Stacey at 2:23 AM on November 3 [11 favorites]
You cannot stop your child from experimenting with getting fucked up. Not unless you are willing to impose control measures so coercive as to render any damage that getting fucked up could conceivably do completely negligible by comparison.
The absolute best chance that your child has of surviving the experimentation with getting fucked up that every human being on the planet has done is parents who, if she gets herself into any situation where she genuinely fears for her safety, are the first people whose help she will seek out.
The best chance that you have of minimizing the extent to which your child experiments with getting fucked up is to educate yourself about the actual risk levels involved in the use of a very wide range of substances, starting with those known to be in use within your local youth community, and make solid, reliable, evidence-backed risk assessments available to your child.
Most kids are reckless but very few are terminally stupid, and the more reliable the information they have to hand, the less likely they are to mis-assess a risk in ways that look terminally stupid from the outside.
It's not okay for a sixteen year old to be drinking, but it's super duper triple extra not okay with whipped shit and a steamer on top for a sixteen year old to be credibly threatened with homelessness.
I am sorry to hear that your wife's fear for her daughter's safety is causing her to act as if her daughter's autonomy isn't real and doesn't need to be taken into account; that's going to be hard for you to deal with. In your shoes, the guiding principle I would personally cling to is that as a parent, my duty to keep my child as safe as she can be overrides all other duties, even that of openness and honesty with my spouse.
posted by flabdablet at 2:40 AM on November 3 [28 favorites]
The absolute best chance that your child has of surviving the experimentation with getting fucked up that every human being on the planet has done is parents who, if she gets herself into any situation where she genuinely fears for her safety, are the first people whose help she will seek out.
The best chance that you have of minimizing the extent to which your child experiments with getting fucked up is to educate yourself about the actual risk levels involved in the use of a very wide range of substances, starting with those known to be in use within your local youth community, and make solid, reliable, evidence-backed risk assessments available to your child.
Most kids are reckless but very few are terminally stupid, and the more reliable the information they have to hand, the less likely they are to mis-assess a risk in ways that look terminally stupid from the outside.
It's not okay for a sixteen year old to be drinking, but it's super duper triple extra not okay with whipped shit and a steamer on top for a sixteen year old to be credibly threatened with homelessness.
I am sorry to hear that your wife's fear for her daughter's safety is causing her to act as if her daughter's autonomy isn't real and doesn't need to be taken into account; that's going to be hard for you to deal with. In your shoes, the guiding principle I would personally cling to is that as a parent, my duty to keep my child as safe as she can be overrides all other duties, even that of openness and honesty with my spouse.
posted by flabdablet at 2:40 AM on November 3 [28 favorites]
By the way: the consistent line I've taken with all my kids since the subject first comes up, which for all three of them happened well before they'd finished sixth grade, is this:
Recreational drugs are fun and interesting - obviously true, or nobody would do them - but they're a kind of fun best put off until you're at least 25 years old, in your own stable home, with your own stable source of income. This is the best advice on drugs that I can give you and it applies to all of them, even the legal ones like alcohol and tobacco. But I also know that you're a human being, and human beings are terrible at taking advice, and the better the advice the worse we are at taking it. So if you've gone ahead and done something that's turned out worse than you thought it would, and you need me to come get you and bring you home, call me. I won't be mad at you for ignoring my excellent advice, I will just come, day or night, no questions asked.
And they have, and I did. Many times. And they're all still alive, touch wood.
Childrens' autonomy deserves to be respected, not as some matter of abstract egalitarian principle but simply because it is real and it does things. Forgetting that they are autonomous, which is often a consequence of mistaking them for extensions of ourselves rather than beings in their own right, simply leads them to apply their considerable ingenuity to getting really good at hiding stuff from us. Which is, from a safety perspective, the absolute worst thing we could possibly be teaching them to do.
Kids find their own ways with or without us, and I sleep much easier believing that for my own kids, with is the better of those options.
posted by flabdablet at 3:18 AM on November 3 [60 favorites]
Recreational drugs are fun and interesting - obviously true, or nobody would do them - but they're a kind of fun best put off until you're at least 25 years old, in your own stable home, with your own stable source of income. This is the best advice on drugs that I can give you and it applies to all of them, even the legal ones like alcohol and tobacco. But I also know that you're a human being, and human beings are terrible at taking advice, and the better the advice the worse we are at taking it. So if you've gone ahead and done something that's turned out worse than you thought it would, and you need me to come get you and bring you home, call me. I won't be mad at you for ignoring my excellent advice, I will just come, day or night, no questions asked.
And they have, and I did. Many times. And they're all still alive, touch wood.
Childrens' autonomy deserves to be respected, not as some matter of abstract egalitarian principle but simply because it is real and it does things. Forgetting that they are autonomous, which is often a consequence of mistaking them for extensions of ourselves rather than beings in their own right, simply leads them to apply their considerable ingenuity to getting really good at hiding stuff from us. Which is, from a safety perspective, the absolute worst thing we could possibly be teaching them to do.
Kids find their own ways with or without us, and I sleep much easier believing that for my own kids, with is the better of those options.
posted by flabdablet at 3:18 AM on November 3 [60 favorites]
Hey so is this the same daughter who asked to see a therapist in April? What's going on with that? Drinking is fine but not if she's using it as a tool to manage her feelings, you know?
My biggest concern would be that kids in NJ can get their license at 17. If your daughter cannot call home to get a no consequences safe ride home, your wife is literally putting your daughter's life at risk.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:23 AM on November 3 [22 favorites]
My biggest concern would be that kids in NJ can get their license at 17. If your daughter cannot call home to get a no consequences safe ride home, your wife is literally putting your daughter's life at risk.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:23 AM on November 3 [22 favorites]
I'm kind of floored by everyone minimizing your concerns about this.
AskMe responses can sometimes over-fixate on one memorable detail that goes on to massively distort the subsequent conversation, particularly if a few early replies tend that way. But even if your wife's approach was too harsh, you know your daughter, and if you're concerned about her getting into substances, then that is entirely valid. Folks hereabouts love to denounce UPTIGHT OPPRESSIVE MOMS, but if the kid is already struggling in school/ not doing great, AND you have a family history of alcoholism, then it's completely fair to be worried about a 16-year-old who was apparently so motivated to drink that she violated a super strong family prohibition to do it. 16-year-olds with the wrong genetics can and do screw up their lives by getting into substances at this age; I think we all know people who followed that pattern.
I'd also be concerned that "ok maybe I drank a little alcohol once or twice," in response to repeated questioning and when the person has already firmly denied the behavior, sounds a bit like the kind of test-balloon confession where you try telling just a little bit of the truth to see how somebody reacts. It's a great sign that she trusted you enough to tell you this, and you should continue to justify that trust by being supportive and loving, but I'm not aware of moderate alcohol alone causing noticeable red eye.
If you haven't directly discussed your family history and past experiences with her, I think now would be a great time to do that-- not in a scaremongering way, but with a sincere focus on sharing your stories about what it was like on a personal level to have a family member who drinks, how his drinking changed his personality/ behavior for the worse, how the disease evolved, remitted or escalated over time, and how it hurt you to grow up around that. She's unlikely to understand any of the harsher realities of what sustained drinking is like, so opening up about your experiences, plus clarifying how addiction susceptibility can be heritable, may help her understand why you'd be worried about this for her when some friends might be fine.
Along similar lines, you might want to discuss with her how having ADHD and dyslexia also seriously raises individual risk of developing substance use disorder, so that will be an aspect of her health and brain chemistry that she will need to carefully monitor as an adult, same as if she had diabetes and needed to be careful about sugar. That's not Puritanical moralizing, it's just helping your daughter understand her own body. It's fair to also emphasize how those same aspects of her brain and personality are also what make your daughter her wonderful and gifted self (I really like Dale Archer's Better Than Normal for a healthy perspective on this), so that the emphasis can be on responsible self-care and not judgment.
Finally, this review cites studies showing that parental awareness/ monitoring, with consistent discipline and support, can be helpful in reducing teens' alcohol risks in these circumstances:
parental knowledge of the adolescent’s activities and whereabouts moderated the association between childhood ADHD and growth in alcohol use frequency through adolescence (Molina et al. 2012). In this case, parental knowledge was based on the adolescent’s report that parents “really knew” about their friendships, location at night, how free time was spent, and so on. When knowledge was low (i.e., parents only knew these things “some of the time” or less often), childhood ADHD predicted a higher frequency of alcohol use by age 17.
It sounds like you two have a good relationship, and that's a great start.
posted by Bardolph at 3:30 AM on November 3 [23 favorites]
AskMe responses can sometimes over-fixate on one memorable detail that goes on to massively distort the subsequent conversation, particularly if a few early replies tend that way. But even if your wife's approach was too harsh, you know your daughter, and if you're concerned about her getting into substances, then that is entirely valid. Folks hereabouts love to denounce UPTIGHT OPPRESSIVE MOMS, but if the kid is already struggling in school/ not doing great, AND you have a family history of alcoholism, then it's completely fair to be worried about a 16-year-old who was apparently so motivated to drink that she violated a super strong family prohibition to do it. 16-year-olds with the wrong genetics can and do screw up their lives by getting into substances at this age; I think we all know people who followed that pattern.
I'd also be concerned that "ok maybe I drank a little alcohol once or twice," in response to repeated questioning and when the person has already firmly denied the behavior, sounds a bit like the kind of test-balloon confession where you try telling just a little bit of the truth to see how somebody reacts. It's a great sign that she trusted you enough to tell you this, and you should continue to justify that trust by being supportive and loving, but I'm not aware of moderate alcohol alone causing noticeable red eye.
If you haven't directly discussed your family history and past experiences with her, I think now would be a great time to do that-- not in a scaremongering way, but with a sincere focus on sharing your stories about what it was like on a personal level to have a family member who drinks, how his drinking changed his personality/ behavior for the worse, how the disease evolved, remitted or escalated over time, and how it hurt you to grow up around that. She's unlikely to understand any of the harsher realities of what sustained drinking is like, so opening up about your experiences, plus clarifying how addiction susceptibility can be heritable, may help her understand why you'd be worried about this for her when some friends might be fine.
Along similar lines, you might want to discuss with her how having ADHD and dyslexia also seriously raises individual risk of developing substance use disorder, so that will be an aspect of her health and brain chemistry that she will need to carefully monitor as an adult, same as if she had diabetes and needed to be careful about sugar. That's not Puritanical moralizing, it's just helping your daughter understand her own body. It's fair to also emphasize how those same aspects of her brain and personality are also what make your daughter her wonderful and gifted self (I really like Dale Archer's Better Than Normal for a healthy perspective on this), so that the emphasis can be on responsible self-care and not judgment.
Finally, this review cites studies showing that parental awareness/ monitoring, with consistent discipline and support, can be helpful in reducing teens' alcohol risks in these circumstances:
parental knowledge of the adolescent’s activities and whereabouts moderated the association between childhood ADHD and growth in alcohol use frequency through adolescence (Molina et al. 2012). In this case, parental knowledge was based on the adolescent’s report that parents “really knew” about their friendships, location at night, how free time was spent, and so on. When knowledge was low (i.e., parents only knew these things “some of the time” or less often), childhood ADHD predicted a higher frequency of alcohol use by age 17.
It sounds like you two have a good relationship, and that's a great start.
posted by Bardolph at 3:30 AM on November 3 [23 favorites]
(Just wanted to add that social/ emotional context is also going to be super highly relevant at this age, so if your daughter seems to be struggling in general, you could also pour some effort into addressing that.
For instance-- do y'all do fun, loving, low-key things as a family, and as parent-kid dyads? Does she have multiple circles of friends/ relationships and different non-overlapping contexts of action (like outside sports/ hobby/ volunteering in addition to school), so that the occasional bad patch at school doesn't need to overshadow her whole life? (If not, could you take up a parent-kid activity to provide some outside action?) Have romantic partners been kind to her, are her friends doing OK, is there anything from the past few traumatic years of early adolescence that she might still want to unpack? Is she sleeping enough, eating well, getting sunlight?
In general, a happy kid is going to going to be a more resilient kid, so it wouldn't hurt to devote a bit more attention to care-and-feeding alongside your specific concerns about this issue.
posted by Bardolph at 3:50 AM on November 3 [10 favorites]
For instance-- do y'all do fun, loving, low-key things as a family, and as parent-kid dyads? Does she have multiple circles of friends/ relationships and different non-overlapping contexts of action (like outside sports/ hobby/ volunteering in addition to school), so that the occasional bad patch at school doesn't need to overshadow her whole life? (If not, could you take up a parent-kid activity to provide some outside action?) Have romantic partners been kind to her, are her friends doing OK, is there anything from the past few traumatic years of early adolescence that she might still want to unpack? Is she sleeping enough, eating well, getting sunlight?
In general, a happy kid is going to going to be a more resilient kid, so it wouldn't hurt to devote a bit more attention to care-and-feeding alongside your specific concerns about this issue.
posted by Bardolph at 3:50 AM on November 3 [10 favorites]
Folks hereabouts love to denounce UPTIGHT OPPRESSIVE MOMS,
No. This is not correct. "Uptight oppressive moms" all caps, who I guess are really strong women doing their best to mother but misunderstood by immature, non-feminist mefites, might over-react and, say, yell at or ground their teens who try alcohol. They certainly don't threaten to abandon them, which creates an entire atmosphere of unbelievable conditionality and anxiety that the kid will be able to even... remain a daughter? Have a roof over her head?
Threatening to abandon a child over normal (if suboptimal) teen experimentation is far more concerning to most people, including most moms, than is that normal if suboptimal teen behavior.
Of course the kid needs support and help for their specific challenges. Great thing to focus on too, absolutely. But positive growth and overcoming challenges well is not what happens in an atmosphere of this kind of threat.
The threats of abandonment are what jump out here for good reason.
posted by ponie at 3:53 AM on November 3 [41 favorites]
No. This is not correct. "Uptight oppressive moms" all caps, who I guess are really strong women doing their best to mother but misunderstood by immature, non-feminist mefites, might over-react and, say, yell at or ground their teens who try alcohol. They certainly don't threaten to abandon them, which creates an entire atmosphere of unbelievable conditionality and anxiety that the kid will be able to even... remain a daughter? Have a roof over her head?
Threatening to abandon a child over normal (if suboptimal) teen experimentation is far more concerning to most people, including most moms, than is that normal if suboptimal teen behavior.
Of course the kid needs support and help for their specific challenges. Great thing to focus on too, absolutely. But positive growth and overcoming challenges well is not what happens in an atmosphere of this kind of threat.
The threats of abandonment are what jump out here for good reason.
posted by ponie at 3:53 AM on November 3 [41 favorites]
The kid didn't even come home drunk it sounds like. Her "eyes were red" which led to a series of questions about whether she'd done this or that, when it came to alcohol that was determined to be the cause of the red eyes. Who knows maybe she had two sips of a beer and hay fever.
Look at it this way, SOMETIMES teen experimentation with booze leads to problems.
But ALWAYS growing up in a house where you are threatened with parental abandonment leads to problems.
Get that kid to therapy.
posted by Tim Bucktooth at 4:05 AM on November 3 [12 favorites]
Look at it this way, SOMETIMES teen experimentation with booze leads to problems.
But ALWAYS growing up in a house where you are threatened with parental abandonment leads to problems.
Get that kid to therapy.
posted by Tim Bucktooth at 4:05 AM on November 3 [12 favorites]
I went to a very small school (30 students in my graduating class) that had a major partying culture. More than half the class was in the "popular clique" (a phrase that sounds ridiculous for a group so small, but they were all from wealthy families so stuck together) and were all social drinking starting in 9th or 10th grade. Four (!!) of those 30 kids became alcoholics (one with a bonus opioid addiction) by college, it destroyed their 20s, and the two I'm still aware of only just managed to crawl out of the hole when our cohort turned 30.
My cousin started drinking casually when she was about 17. She's an alcoholic and her life is still spiralling. She's 35 and spent the holidays last year and most of this year split between jail and court ordered rehab. Her child had to testify against her after she drove him to school drunk. It's all so horrible. She's also been raised with immense money and privilege.
There are plenty of other people who started drinking as teens, mellowed out, and managed just fine. But I'm worried about for you. Aside from having money (the family money just allowed them to buy their kid's way out of consequences for years), the one commonality between my cousin and those particular classmates of mine is their family situation. Each of them had one volatile parent and one close friend parent who routinely bought their love.
Please get your kid into therapy immediately.
posted by phunniemee at 4:22 AM on November 3 [5 favorites]
My cousin started drinking casually when she was about 17. She's an alcoholic and her life is still spiralling. She's 35 and spent the holidays last year and most of this year split between jail and court ordered rehab. Her child had to testify against her after she drove him to school drunk. It's all so horrible. She's also been raised with immense money and privilege.
There are plenty of other people who started drinking as teens, mellowed out, and managed just fine. But I'm worried about for you. Aside from having money (the family money just allowed them to buy their kid's way out of consequences for years), the one commonality between my cousin and those particular classmates of mine is their family situation. Each of them had one volatile parent and one close friend parent who routinely bought their love.
Please get your kid into therapy immediately.
posted by phunniemee at 4:22 AM on November 3 [5 favorites]
On the abandonment front - I'd investigate how "saying things just to keep your daughter in line" is playing into things. Does your wife do that a lot? How do you react when she does this? Do you back her up? Do you contradict her? Why is it that your daughter trusts you and not her mother?
In particular, is there a family sense of "that's just how Mom uses hyperbole, everyone knows for sure that we would never abandon our daughter"? My parents sometimes used a little hyperbole about stuff and - although they were very strict - it was always clear to all of us that it was hyperbole, so I can see that there can be a family culture of overstatement.
But if not, I have to tell you that having a parent who threatens abandonment to keep a kid in line is a background problem that isn't helping your child. This doesn't mean that your wife doesn't love your daughter, but it is a big problem.
When I was growing up, my mother was the one who got really mad about stuff, and my mother was the one who gave the silent treatment. From when I was very small I used to dread angering her. My mother was also a very loving parent and in retrospect I can see how her anger was the product of the sexism she'd experienced and the limits on her life, and her fear that she wasn't being loved or seen. She was a very loving parent to me most of the time and she was a very thoughtful and caring person who had some extremely unfair things happen to her. But our relationship was really, really marred by the history of conflict. She got very sick with a long, terminal illness when I was in my thirties and due to the nature of the illness we never repaired our relationship. It is probably the greatest regret of my life, that we were on such a bad footing and then we ran out of time. We did not fight when I was in my teens, I was not a disobedient child, but our relationship was not close.
My point here being that one thing you don't want - and that I tell this story to try to prevent - is a marred relationship between a child and a loving mother because of what is essentially a kind of miscommunication, a relationship where the wrong thing is being communicated to the child.
I am agnostic on the drinking situation because I don't know your daughter - was this a one-time experiment to see what it was like? Does her peer group drink? Is she sad and stressed enough that she's going to drink to manage it? That's all stuff for you to figure out based on your knowledge of her and her social group.
But really, try to get the family stuff with you, your wife and your daughter sorted out. The ability to have a loving, secure relationship with your parents is a huge, huge gift for both you and her.
posted by Frowner at 5:06 AM on November 3 [12 favorites]
In particular, is there a family sense of "that's just how Mom uses hyperbole, everyone knows for sure that we would never abandon our daughter"? My parents sometimes used a little hyperbole about stuff and - although they were very strict - it was always clear to all of us that it was hyperbole, so I can see that there can be a family culture of overstatement.
But if not, I have to tell you that having a parent who threatens abandonment to keep a kid in line is a background problem that isn't helping your child. This doesn't mean that your wife doesn't love your daughter, but it is a big problem.
When I was growing up, my mother was the one who got really mad about stuff, and my mother was the one who gave the silent treatment. From when I was very small I used to dread angering her. My mother was also a very loving parent and in retrospect I can see how her anger was the product of the sexism she'd experienced and the limits on her life, and her fear that she wasn't being loved or seen. She was a very loving parent to me most of the time and she was a very thoughtful and caring person who had some extremely unfair things happen to her. But our relationship was really, really marred by the history of conflict. She got very sick with a long, terminal illness when I was in my thirties and due to the nature of the illness we never repaired our relationship. It is probably the greatest regret of my life, that we were on such a bad footing and then we ran out of time. We did not fight when I was in my teens, I was not a disobedient child, but our relationship was not close.
My point here being that one thing you don't want - and that I tell this story to try to prevent - is a marred relationship between a child and a loving mother because of what is essentially a kind of miscommunication, a relationship where the wrong thing is being communicated to the child.
I am agnostic on the drinking situation because I don't know your daughter - was this a one-time experiment to see what it was like? Does her peer group drink? Is she sad and stressed enough that she's going to drink to manage it? That's all stuff for you to figure out based on your knowledge of her and her social group.
But really, try to get the family stuff with you, your wife and your daughter sorted out. The ability to have a loving, secure relationship with your parents is a huge, huge gift for both you and her.
posted by Frowner at 5:06 AM on November 3 [12 favorites]
My wife has a very strict, zero-tolerance stance on substance use and has even threatened to abandon our daughter if she ever used drugs or alcohol. To be clear that’s just intended to keep her in line.
I am a mom to a 19 year old and a 13 year old. 19 is the legal drinking age here. My husband doesn’t drink and I have a scotch on Saturday night sometimes.
So here’s the thing. Between 16 and 24 or so, your role as a parent moves slowly from “rule setter and decider” to “consultant.” And in order to not end up with a young adult child who literally dies before asking for help (with drugs, bad situations, abusive partners, etc.) you really, really want there to be one message which is you can always come home.
You do not want your 16 year old out drunk realizing if she comes home mum will abandon her, because then your 16 year old will get in a car with a drunk driver or stay in a situation where she’s unsafe. That is why your spouse’s reaction and statement is extremely misguided and much more unsafe. It is on the very right-wing Dave Ramsay network but search up Dr John Delony YouTube videos on teens Doing Stuff and have a listen. He puts it very well.
As for the drinking, if you haven’t talked to your daughter about your dad, this is a good time. Gently like “now that you’ve experimented with alcohol…” and just share with her. And talk to her about your concerns.
I hope your wife can stand down.
One thing my parents got really right was that they talked to me about my 3 alcoholic grandparents (one of whom abused me.) They shared why and how they chose to drink, which was basically a drink or two on Saturday night or a glass of wine at a restaurant. They started giving me a small amount of wine at special occasions around when I was 16 and basically demystified it. I didn’t drink at all beyond that until my third year of university. I’ve done the same with my oldest, and for his 19th birthday his already-legal friends took him out to…see a movie and go to a bookstore.
However, my mother kicked my sister out of the house at 16 for smoking a single tobacco cigarette. My sister ended up in terrible situations and abusive relationships- and I was the one she called. Fortunately she is actually doing fantastic now, but it was a miracle.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:29 AM on November 3 [41 favorites]
I am a mom to a 19 year old and a 13 year old. 19 is the legal drinking age here. My husband doesn’t drink and I have a scotch on Saturday night sometimes.
So here’s the thing. Between 16 and 24 or so, your role as a parent moves slowly from “rule setter and decider” to “consultant.” And in order to not end up with a young adult child who literally dies before asking for help (with drugs, bad situations, abusive partners, etc.) you really, really want there to be one message which is you can always come home.
You do not want your 16 year old out drunk realizing if she comes home mum will abandon her, because then your 16 year old will get in a car with a drunk driver or stay in a situation where she’s unsafe. That is why your spouse’s reaction and statement is extremely misguided and much more unsafe. It is on the very right-wing Dave Ramsay network but search up Dr John Delony YouTube videos on teens Doing Stuff and have a listen. He puts it very well.
As for the drinking, if you haven’t talked to your daughter about your dad, this is a good time. Gently like “now that you’ve experimented with alcohol…” and just share with her. And talk to her about your concerns.
I hope your wife can stand down.
One thing my parents got really right was that they talked to me about my 3 alcoholic grandparents (one of whom abused me.) They shared why and how they chose to drink, which was basically a drink or two on Saturday night or a glass of wine at a restaurant. They started giving me a small amount of wine at special occasions around when I was 16 and basically demystified it. I didn’t drink at all beyond that until my third year of university. I’ve done the same with my oldest, and for his 19th birthday his already-legal friends took him out to…see a movie and go to a bookstore.
However, my mother kicked my sister out of the house at 16 for smoking a single tobacco cigarette. My sister ended up in terrible situations and abusive relationships- and I was the one she called. Fortunately she is actually doing fantastic now, but it was a miracle.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:29 AM on November 3 [41 favorites]
So, I think it matters how your wife says this.
My father used to threaten to Send Me Away To A Convent With The Nuns! With a Really High Wall! But he always said it laughingly and it was very clear he would never in fact send me away to a convent if I misbehaved. Does your wife say it like this, or is there a real fear of parental abandonment? Because that fear alone is a major, crippling fear. Children need unconditional love modeled for them so that they can have healthy relationships in adulthood.
That said, I join with folks saying that you should talk about your alcoholic family member history openly. This may or may not change your daughter’s alcohol use! I know no less than two daughters of an alcoholic who hated that their dad drinks who still experimented with alcohol at 16, because that’s a normal teen thing to try. However, it may change the *way* they approach alcohol and may make them more cautious about when and where they consume and how often they consume. You want to minimize harm here rather than move to a zero tolerance land.
I honestly wouldn’t tell your wife. I think it’s ok to keep secrets that your child has asked you to keep as long as they’re not directly life threatening. If it escalates, then that changes.
posted by corb at 5:39 AM on November 3 [7 favorites]
My father used to threaten to Send Me Away To A Convent With The Nuns! With a Really High Wall! But he always said it laughingly and it was very clear he would never in fact send me away to a convent if I misbehaved. Does your wife say it like this, or is there a real fear of parental abandonment? Because that fear alone is a major, crippling fear. Children need unconditional love modeled for them so that they can have healthy relationships in adulthood.
That said, I join with folks saying that you should talk about your alcoholic family member history openly. This may or may not change your daughter’s alcohol use! I know no less than two daughters of an alcoholic who hated that their dad drinks who still experimented with alcohol at 16, because that’s a normal teen thing to try. However, it may change the *way* they approach alcohol and may make them more cautious about when and where they consume and how often they consume. You want to minimize harm here rather than move to a zero tolerance land.
I honestly wouldn’t tell your wife. I think it’s ok to keep secrets that your child has asked you to keep as long as they’re not directly life threatening. If it escalates, then that changes.
posted by corb at 5:39 AM on November 3 [7 favorites]
There's a lot of useful stuff you can teach your daughter in this situation. I grew up in a heavily alcoholic family, around a set of high school friends who drank heavily, stayed out late driving drunk and stoned, and managed to avoid becoming accustomed to that lifestyle. You can help her navigate the situation and make informed choices; encourage your wife to help her daughter make smart choices and learn how to manage the situation. If your wife chooses to abandon her at this stage, she risks leaving her daughter open to some really unfortunate outcomes that your wife will also find very painful; abandoning is not a measure of virtue.
Here are some practical things you can talk to your daughter about:
Binge drinking. Young people in high school and college do a lot of intense drinking on weekends. This sets up a pattern of heavy drinking in a social context. You can give her tips on drinking lots of water or other non alcoholic beverages or when to stop (ideally after one or two). Let her know about the craving alcoholics develop if it becomes a habit to get blackout drunk, and that it's not really good for your brain cells and contributes to cancer.
Heavy drinking impairs judgement. People injure themselves when their judgement is impaired. This may include alcohol intoxication to the point of medical emergency, choking during sleep, becoming the victim of a sexual assault, injury such as automotive accidents or falls.
Social drinking presents difficult peer pressure situations where she may do more risky things than are in her best interests. People who pressure her to do things that are beyond her comfort zone are not her friends.
Anyway, there's a list of things you can talk to her about that will help her make informed decisions, and would be an opportunity to build trust. Telling her that you will come get her no matter the time of night if she wants a ride home is an excellent way to build trust and encourage her to keep talking to you. Good luck, it's a challenging situation and kudos to you for being such a caring parent.
posted by effluvia at 6:07 AM on November 3 [2 favorites]
Here are some practical things you can talk to your daughter about:
Binge drinking. Young people in high school and college do a lot of intense drinking on weekends. This sets up a pattern of heavy drinking in a social context. You can give her tips on drinking lots of water or other non alcoholic beverages or when to stop (ideally after one or two). Let her know about the craving alcoholics develop if it becomes a habit to get blackout drunk, and that it's not really good for your brain cells and contributes to cancer.
Heavy drinking impairs judgement. People injure themselves when their judgement is impaired. This may include alcohol intoxication to the point of medical emergency, choking during sleep, becoming the victim of a sexual assault, injury such as automotive accidents or falls.
Social drinking presents difficult peer pressure situations where she may do more risky things than are in her best interests. People who pressure her to do things that are beyond her comfort zone are not her friends.
Anyway, there's a list of things you can talk to her about that will help her make informed decisions, and would be an opportunity to build trust. Telling her that you will come get her no matter the time of night if she wants a ride home is an excellent way to build trust and encourage her to keep talking to you. Good luck, it's a challenging situation and kudos to you for being such a caring parent.
posted by effluvia at 6:07 AM on November 3 [2 favorites]
One caution I have about telling your daughter about family history: don't make her think it's her responsibility to fix you or your family. That's parentification, and it's harmful.
My mother was an alcoholic. When she got sober, she did talk to me about her history and family history, but not out of concern for me -- I was a pretty straightedge kid. It was because she didn't have an individual therapist and bloody well needed one, and I was there and couldn't escape her, and she could pretend it was stuff I needed to know.
Stay centered on her rather than yourself, and you should be okay. A family counselor (which I agree would be a good idea) can also help you think through how to do this.
posted by humbug at 6:20 AM on November 3 [5 favorites]
My mother was an alcoholic. When she got sober, she did talk to me about her history and family history, but not out of concern for me -- I was a pretty straightedge kid. It was because she didn't have an individual therapist and bloody well needed one, and I was there and couldn't escape her, and she could pretend it was stuff I needed to know.
Stay centered on her rather than yourself, and you should be okay. A family counselor (which I agree would be a good idea) can also help you think through how to do this.
posted by humbug at 6:20 AM on November 3 [5 favorites]
Relevant to the ongoing Bad Mom derail, OP's prior question indicates that the daughter's mother is not from the US and has no formal education-- so it's worth considering that differing cultural and class norms about parental expression may be factoring in here. OP can share the exact language if it's relevant, but "at one point threatened to abandon the child" read to me as the mom once saying she'd kick the daughter out if she ever got into drugs and alcohol. There's no indication she said this more than once, and we don't know when she said it, or how seriously she said it, at all.
posted by Bardolph at 6:24 AM on November 3 [3 favorites]
posted by Bardolph at 6:24 AM on November 3 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you so much for the thoughtful and compassionate responses. I am incredibly moved, and grateful to have such a caring community to turn to during a challenging time. Based on some of the responses I feel the need to clarify a few points by adding additional context:
Therapy: I am currently in therapy and have been at various points in my life. My therapist is on a three week break for travel, which is why I felt a sense of urgency in seeking out support here. I wanted to handle the situation as thoughtfully as possible while waiting for my next session.
Threat of abandonment: This is not something my wife would ever actually act on. These words come from a place of deep seated fear and trauma rooted in her past. She experienced significant upheaval and loss during her early years as she was born in Saigon 3 months after its fall to the Vietcong. Those experience shaped her perspective on safety and trust.
Lack of formal education: Because of the time and place she was born she did not have the opportunity to attend school. The differences in our cultural and educational backgrounds means that we can have a different understanding of parenting approaches. Despite this, she’s an incredibly loving, dedicated, and affectionate mother and wife, who deeply cherishes our family and works hard to create a life of stability and joy for our family.
I hope this provides some context on the complexity behind our family dynamics.
posted by nandaro at 6:55 AM on November 3 [7 favorites]
Therapy: I am currently in therapy and have been at various points in my life. My therapist is on a three week break for travel, which is why I felt a sense of urgency in seeking out support here. I wanted to handle the situation as thoughtfully as possible while waiting for my next session.
Threat of abandonment: This is not something my wife would ever actually act on. These words come from a place of deep seated fear and trauma rooted in her past. She experienced significant upheaval and loss during her early years as she was born in Saigon 3 months after its fall to the Vietcong. Those experience shaped her perspective on safety and trust.
Lack of formal education: Because of the time and place she was born she did not have the opportunity to attend school. The differences in our cultural and educational backgrounds means that we can have a different understanding of parenting approaches. Despite this, she’s an incredibly loving, dedicated, and affectionate mother and wife, who deeply cherishes our family and works hard to create a life of stability and joy for our family.
I hope this provides some context on the complexity behind our family dynamics.
posted by nandaro at 6:55 AM on November 3 [7 favorites]
Does your *daughter* know that she'd never act on it?
posted by sagc at 7:00 AM on November 3 [36 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:00 AM on November 3 [36 favorites]
This is not something my wife would ever actually act on.
Ok, but as people are pointing out, that doesn't resolve the problem if this threat was made in a serious tone, leading your daughter to believe it might be true - or at least that she could be heavily punished for what is, as many have already pointed out, a fairly normal (if not ideal) teenage activity. You want your goal to be parents who your kid feels comfortable calling at 2am, drunk, because she doesn't have a safe ride home, or she's been sexually assaulted, etc. Teenage drinking isn't great, but it's the behavior that can happen around teenage drinking that's really dangerous.
But even putting aside your wife for a second, there is a lot of anxiety in your own narration of this - alcoholism isn't purely genetic (current research suggests a fairly even mix of genes and environment), and your daughter's genetics are not identical to your fathers. She really is her own person. And while sure, drinking could impact her schooling, it also could not if this is a fairly rare activity for her - I'm not sure worrying about it before it happens is going to help you support your daughter.
In short, in terms of practical advice on what to do in the next few weeks:
-Tell your wife that the recent experience of having to interrogate your daughter brought up a lot of feelings for you given the substance abuse in your family, and you'd like to book a few sessions with a counselor to talk through in a safe space together your collective approach to parenting a teen/soon-to-be legal adult.
-Follow some of the advice given above on figuring out how much and in what context(s) your daughter is drinking, let her know the risks (brain still developing, drunk driving, sexual assault, etc.), but make it clear that she can call you no matter what the time is, because you will always prioritize her safety.
I wouldn't tell your wife for now. But secrets like this tend to have an expiration date, and so it will be good to prepare a plan for when that happens (and counseling together could maybe help with that).
posted by coffeecat at 7:39 AM on November 3 [2 favorites]
Ok, but as people are pointing out, that doesn't resolve the problem if this threat was made in a serious tone, leading your daughter to believe it might be true - or at least that she could be heavily punished for what is, as many have already pointed out, a fairly normal (if not ideal) teenage activity. You want your goal to be parents who your kid feels comfortable calling at 2am, drunk, because she doesn't have a safe ride home, or she's been sexually assaulted, etc. Teenage drinking isn't great, but it's the behavior that can happen around teenage drinking that's really dangerous.
But even putting aside your wife for a second, there is a lot of anxiety in your own narration of this - alcoholism isn't purely genetic (current research suggests a fairly even mix of genes and environment), and your daughter's genetics are not identical to your fathers. She really is her own person. And while sure, drinking could impact her schooling, it also could not if this is a fairly rare activity for her - I'm not sure worrying about it before it happens is going to help you support your daughter.
In short, in terms of practical advice on what to do in the next few weeks:
-Tell your wife that the recent experience of having to interrogate your daughter brought up a lot of feelings for you given the substance abuse in your family, and you'd like to book a few sessions with a counselor to talk through in a safe space together your collective approach to parenting a teen/soon-to-be legal adult.
-Follow some of the advice given above on figuring out how much and in what context(s) your daughter is drinking, let her know the risks (brain still developing, drunk driving, sexual assault, etc.), but make it clear that she can call you no matter what the time is, because you will always prioritize her safety.
I wouldn't tell your wife for now. But secrets like this tend to have an expiration date, and so it will be good to prepare a plan for when that happens (and counseling together could maybe help with that).
posted by coffeecat at 7:39 AM on November 3 [2 favorites]
OP, I think it’s great that your daughter felt she could be open with you. It’s so important that she sees you as an ally and not a source of punishment.
1. Seems like a good idea to share the family history with your daughter in a “here’s some info” way and not to scare her.
2. Seems like a good idea for her to have some idea of how situations can go in her current social setting, and have some strategies for coping.
3. A few years ago there was a thing floating around the internet. A parent made an arrangement with their kids that if they were at a party and uncomfortable for any reason at all, they’d text the parent a code word. The parent would immediately call and tell them they had to come home because they hadn’t cleaned their room or something. Or perhaps the parent just showed up at the party to take them home. Anyway the result was that the kid had a quick exit for any situation where they felt things had gone beyond their own capacity.
I always thought it was a nice example of a parent really being an ally to their child.
posted by bunderful at 7:51 AM on November 3 [14 favorites]
1. Seems like a good idea to share the family history with your daughter in a “here’s some info” way and not to scare her.
2. Seems like a good idea for her to have some idea of how situations can go in her current social setting, and have some strategies for coping.
3. A few years ago there was a thing floating around the internet. A parent made an arrangement with their kids that if they were at a party and uncomfortable for any reason at all, they’d text the parent a code word. The parent would immediately call and tell them they had to come home because they hadn’t cleaned their room or something. Or perhaps the parent just showed up at the party to take them home. Anyway the result was that the kid had a quick exit for any situation where they felt things had gone beyond their own capacity.
I always thought it was a nice example of a parent really being an ally to their child.
posted by bunderful at 7:51 AM on November 3 [14 favorites]
I strongly agree with sagc's question after your update. It doesn't matter at all if you believe your wife would never act on the threat. It only matters if your child believes their mother would never act on it.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned -- is it possible your child is drinking as a way to test exactly this - their mother's threat? Either mom keeps her word and abandons the household (maybe win-win if mom is this authoritarian and withholding?) or mom doesn't keep her word and now child knows there's a new world of transgression open to them. All of this is totally normal. It's one of the reasons why one piece of advice to parents is to only set consequences you can keep! But it may be a way that your child is testing boundaries, even unconsciously -- to see what will really happen if mom discovers they've been drinking.
I offered the saving face "out" to my kids that bunderful mentions. They could ask my permission to do anything at anytime, even in front of friends, and I'd ask them if their chores were done. If they said, "No" it meant they wanted me to say "No" or to come get them. If they said, "Yes" it meant that they really did want to be allowed or want to stay someplace. I still had my parental role and authority to say, "No, for xyz reason I don't think it's a good idea at the moment. Let's talk about it." but it meant they could always use me as the bad guy to get out of situations they didn't feel comfortable in.
posted by cocoagirl at 9:11 AM on November 3 [9 favorites]
One thing I haven't seen mentioned -- is it possible your child is drinking as a way to test exactly this - their mother's threat? Either mom keeps her word and abandons the household (maybe win-win if mom is this authoritarian and withholding?) or mom doesn't keep her word and now child knows there's a new world of transgression open to them. All of this is totally normal. It's one of the reasons why one piece of advice to parents is to only set consequences you can keep! But it may be a way that your child is testing boundaries, even unconsciously -- to see what will really happen if mom discovers they've been drinking.
I offered the saving face "out" to my kids that bunderful mentions. They could ask my permission to do anything at anytime, even in front of friends, and I'd ask them if their chores were done. If they said, "No" it meant they wanted me to say "No" or to come get them. If they said, "Yes" it meant that they really did want to be allowed or want to stay someplace. I still had my parental role and authority to say, "No, for xyz reason I don't think it's a good idea at the moment. Let's talk about it." but it meant they could always use me as the bad guy to get out of situations they didn't feel comfortable in.
posted by cocoagirl at 9:11 AM on November 3 [9 favorites]
First, I really have to commend you for handling the initial situation well and it seems like your teen trusts you. Coming from an immigrant Asian culture, I am somewhat familiar with empty threats and punishments which American culture has difficulty understanding. While keeping on eye on the path of your teen, I would strongly consider developing a stronger relationship with your teen with a set weekly time that you spend doing something your teen enjoys whether it is window shopping, going to a bookstore, walking in a park, etc. Forcing the conversation is really hard with teens. I think adults have a tendency to tell teens things or be very explicit and it often backfires. Having a consistent time where you give your teen space for them to talk with you is important. Teen brains are impulsive and they are more likely to share things with you in quiet consistent spaces where you aren't asking questions but listening to them instead. I think it is an important first step.
posted by ichimunki at 9:15 AM on November 3 [8 favorites]
posted by ichimunki at 9:15 AM on November 3 [8 favorites]
Keep in mind that problem drinking usually is in response to needing to escape bad feelings, and that the feeling the drinker needs to escape is usually one of shame. However you handle this, do your damndest to avoid doing anything that will make your daughter feel self-loathing or social anxiety.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:33 AM on November 3 [2 favorites]
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:33 AM on November 3 [2 favorites]
I think a respectful way to honor the "confidentiality" and trust agreement you have is to keep that information to yourself, but that doesn't mean you un-know it. What you CAN do is be very alert to any negative effects of the drinking. Is she keeping up in school, getting decent grades? Coming home at reasonable hours? Making smart decisions with respect to 'who's driving' plans? Staying out of trouble with the law?
You can start getting a little more critical of where she's going when she leaves the house. How is it she has the opportunity to do this drinking, is some other parent letting her (and her friends) do it? I think you can apply a little more supervision just on your own without revealing why you're doing that to anyone. You can even have the conversation with her in private - "you know why I'm asking, right?"
16 sounds a little early, but the concept is the same here - she's becoming an adult. Adults drink. She needs to learn how to plan for that, not putting herself in dangerous circumstances or places, not causing negative consequences with it, and the difference between "a couple of drinks in good company" and out-of-control blackout drinking, or drinking to escape life. She's going to need a parent to help with that, and "no tolerance" just shuts off the conversation.
I think it would be fair to try to find out how 16-year-olds are getting alcohol though, because that's unsat. "Gonna happen one way or the other" or not, it doesn't mean you have to ignore it. Someone's committing a crime here other than the kids.
posted by ctmf at 10:34 AM on November 3 [1 favorite]
You can start getting a little more critical of where she's going when she leaves the house. How is it she has the opportunity to do this drinking, is some other parent letting her (and her friends) do it? I think you can apply a little more supervision just on your own without revealing why you're doing that to anyone. You can even have the conversation with her in private - "you know why I'm asking, right?"
16 sounds a little early, but the concept is the same here - she's becoming an adult. Adults drink. She needs to learn how to plan for that, not putting herself in dangerous circumstances or places, not causing negative consequences with it, and the difference between "a couple of drinks in good company" and out-of-control blackout drinking, or drinking to escape life. She's going to need a parent to help with that, and "no tolerance" just shuts off the conversation.
I think it would be fair to try to find out how 16-year-olds are getting alcohol though, because that's unsat. "Gonna happen one way or the other" or not, it doesn't mean you have to ignore it. Someone's committing a crime here other than the kids.
posted by ctmf at 10:34 AM on November 3 [1 favorite]
This is not something my wife would ever actually act on.
Not an excuse, and her trauma is also not an excuse - does she think it's a real fun club to be in and wants to share that experience with her children?? You do not say this to a child, everrrrrrr. It breaks something really, really important in them. And it skyrockets girls' likelihood of ending up in abusive relationships due to attachment disorder. I'd drink too, if I had that hanging over me.
It is many many years past time for her to get this dealt with, and you need to get parental coaching on board for both of you stat.
You can give your daughter some messaging that you would prefer she not drink, that drinking/substance use at this age isn't great for growing brains, and that she can likely see that happening in real time in some of her peers. Get her agreement that she'll never drive or get in the car with a driver that's been drinking. Agree on a word she can use with you that means "get me out of here" - I have friends whose kids can call them anytime and say "hey, did you just try to call me?" and that's the cue. Then they say "oh my god, no, come pick me up!" with a location/instructions and then can claim to their friends that one of their pets is at the emergency vet and they have to go.
Say nothing to her mother, but tell her that her mother has more or less figured it out and she should consider whether that means she's actually handling it as well as she thinks she is.
The pressing issue here is getting her home life on solid footing. Kids who feel safe, respected, loved, and allowed to be less than perfect are just much much less likely to fuck up real bad out in the world.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:39 AM on November 3 [9 favorites]
Not an excuse, and her trauma is also not an excuse - does she think it's a real fun club to be in and wants to share that experience with her children?? You do not say this to a child, everrrrrrr. It breaks something really, really important in them. And it skyrockets girls' likelihood of ending up in abusive relationships due to attachment disorder. I'd drink too, if I had that hanging over me.
It is many many years past time for her to get this dealt with, and you need to get parental coaching on board for both of you stat.
You can give your daughter some messaging that you would prefer she not drink, that drinking/substance use at this age isn't great for growing brains, and that she can likely see that happening in real time in some of her peers. Get her agreement that she'll never drive or get in the car with a driver that's been drinking. Agree on a word she can use with you that means "get me out of here" - I have friends whose kids can call them anytime and say "hey, did you just try to call me?" and that's the cue. Then they say "oh my god, no, come pick me up!" with a location/instructions and then can claim to their friends that one of their pets is at the emergency vet and they have to go.
Say nothing to her mother, but tell her that her mother has more or less figured it out and she should consider whether that means she's actually handling it as well as she thinks she is.
The pressing issue here is getting her home life on solid footing. Kids who feel safe, respected, loved, and allowed to be less than perfect are just much much less likely to fuck up real bad out in the world.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:39 AM on November 3 [9 favorites]
I also think it makes a difference if it's a bunch of generally good kids experimenting with alcohol (as said above, who doesn't at that age) or if she's fallen in with some bad characters on the alcohol-drugs-petty theft-more serious crimes-in and out of jail all their lives track. I don't know how you can predict the future for certain, but if you don't know who her friends are, maybe increase the supervision a little until you do.
And really, just limit opportunities as much as you can. Bored people (of all ages) with nothing to do get up to no good with all that time. It's a law of nature. Busy people don't have time for that.
posted by ctmf at 10:51 AM on November 3 [1 favorite]
And really, just limit opportunities as much as you can. Bored people (of all ages) with nothing to do get up to no good with all that time. It's a law of nature. Busy people don't have time for that.
posted by ctmf at 10:51 AM on November 3 [1 favorite]
> Coming from an immigrant Asian culture, I am somewhat familiar with empty threats and punishments which American culture has difficulty understanding.
For the record, I come from an Asian immigrant culture too and my parents used "empty" threats all the time on me to keep me in line. I knew the threats were empty, because my parents would frequently tell me so when they were not angry.
As a consequence of (a) their propensity to make hyperbolic threats and (b) the "emptiness" of said threats, I went right on doing whatever I felt like, including all kinds of forbidden things, because I was not at all scared that they'd really abandon me. And also I hid everything from my parents and lied to them constantly, because I WAS scared of how angry they would get - i.e. angry enough to make really ugly terrible-sounding "empty" threats at me.
As it happens, their threats weren't empty after all, and they did throw me out of their home at age 19/20, when I did the final most forbidden thing in their book. Thank goodness I had lied to them all along! Otherwise, who knows?? They might have kicked me out much sooner.
No parent who makes threats of abandonment is trustworthy. The threat alone is a horrific transgression against the child's trust. Asian culture or American culture or whatever culture you may be from, this is an absolute truth.
posted by MiraK at 12:15 PM on November 3 [27 favorites]
For the record, I come from an Asian immigrant culture too and my parents used "empty" threats all the time on me to keep me in line. I knew the threats were empty, because my parents would frequently tell me so when they were not angry.
As a consequence of (a) their propensity to make hyperbolic threats and (b) the "emptiness" of said threats, I went right on doing whatever I felt like, including all kinds of forbidden things, because I was not at all scared that they'd really abandon me. And also I hid everything from my parents and lied to them constantly, because I WAS scared of how angry they would get - i.e. angry enough to make really ugly terrible-sounding "empty" threats at me.
As it happens, their threats weren't empty after all, and they did throw me out of their home at age 19/20, when I did the final most forbidden thing in their book. Thank goodness I had lied to them all along! Otherwise, who knows?? They might have kicked me out much sooner.
No parent who makes threats of abandonment is trustworthy. The threat alone is a horrific transgression against the child's trust. Asian culture or American culture or whatever culture you may be from, this is an absolute truth.
posted by MiraK at 12:15 PM on November 3 [27 favorites]
You seem to be based in the United States. I think you do need to have realistic expectations about what it means to raise a teenager in the west, even if your wife (and maybe you) were raised elsewhere.
Teenagers will be exposed to drugs and alcohol. Many will experiment. There are dangers from teenagers experimenting with drugs and alcohol, but they can be different to the dangers from adults using these substances.
Threatening to abandon your daughter if she does something you disagree with is not an effective strategy to stop her from doing these things. She might do them, she might not. Threats would be an effective strategy to discourage her from being honest with you.
I think that you need to have some open conversations with your daughter about why she might want to use drugs or alcohol, and what the risks are if she does. How can you work together to minimise these risks? Obviously the best strategy would be for her to not drink or do drugs. But if she does, how can she keep herself as safe as possible?
Would you, for example, be there at any time of the day or night if she (and maybe her friends) needed to be picked up? Can she come to you for advice and help?
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:26 PM on November 3 [1 favorite]
Teenagers will be exposed to drugs and alcohol. Many will experiment. There are dangers from teenagers experimenting with drugs and alcohol, but they can be different to the dangers from adults using these substances.
Threatening to abandon your daughter if she does something you disagree with is not an effective strategy to stop her from doing these things. She might do them, she might not. Threats would be an effective strategy to discourage her from being honest with you.
I think that you need to have some open conversations with your daughter about why she might want to use drugs or alcohol, and what the risks are if she does. How can you work together to minimise these risks? Obviously the best strategy would be for her to not drink or do drugs. But if she does, how can she keep herself as safe as possible?
Would you, for example, be there at any time of the day or night if she (and maybe her friends) needed to be picked up? Can she come to you for advice and help?
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:26 PM on November 3 [1 favorite]
Please understand that I am not trying to downplay the potential hazards of your daughter’s drinking. You are not overreacting to be concerned, and I think you’ve received some good advice of how to broach the topic with her and help her make good choices.
However, I really want to second what MiraK said. My mother immigrated to Canada from Asia and brought some trauma and not-great parenting ideas with her. Combine this with not-great Western parenting ideas in the 1980s, and you get a perfect storm of parenting mistakes. But I don’t think anything made as much of a negative impression on me as the time she told me angrily that if I did X, or if Y happened to me as a result of my poor choices, I was on my own and not to expect any help from her.
As a result, like MiraK, I told my parents almost nothing about what I was up to, and I did some really dumb things that could have had terrible consequences. I honestly felt I could not tell my parents things because they would be extremely angry at me—after all, my mother had been angry enough to threaten to cut me off, and she didn’t actually even know what I was up to! I didn’t think she would cut me off, but sure as shit she would have let me know every step of the way what a mistake I was making and I didn’t need THAT in my life if it was already going shitty, thank you. I STILL don’t tell her things.
I am 100% certain that she would not have cut me off regardless of what I did or what happened, but it doesn’t matter. I’m sure she doesn’t even remember having said that to me. However, even though I love my mother—she’s been a good mother to me, and we have a good relationship—I have never forgotten that she threatened me with that 35 years ago. Your daughter will remember forever what your wife has said to her, even if it is an empty threat and even if she understands it to be one. Threatening to disown someone or cut them off is an incredibly cruel statement to make.
It’s really good that your daughter has shared with you—it means she trusts you. She doesn’t trust your wife, and why would she? So I recommend you (or ideally a therapist) try to get your wife to understand ASAP that the way she is acting is a perfect way to ensure your daughter never confides anything to her and it may lead to estrangement down the road. This isn’t a cultural difference that requires relativist acceptance. Your wife needs to think about the relationship she wants to have with your daughter, not just now but decades from now.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:02 PM on November 3 [14 favorites]
However, I really want to second what MiraK said. My mother immigrated to Canada from Asia and brought some trauma and not-great parenting ideas with her. Combine this with not-great Western parenting ideas in the 1980s, and you get a perfect storm of parenting mistakes. But I don’t think anything made as much of a negative impression on me as the time she told me angrily that if I did X, or if Y happened to me as a result of my poor choices, I was on my own and not to expect any help from her.
As a result, like MiraK, I told my parents almost nothing about what I was up to, and I did some really dumb things that could have had terrible consequences. I honestly felt I could not tell my parents things because they would be extremely angry at me—after all, my mother had been angry enough to threaten to cut me off, and she didn’t actually even know what I was up to! I didn’t think she would cut me off, but sure as shit she would have let me know every step of the way what a mistake I was making and I didn’t need THAT in my life if it was already going shitty, thank you. I STILL don’t tell her things.
I am 100% certain that she would not have cut me off regardless of what I did or what happened, but it doesn’t matter. I’m sure she doesn’t even remember having said that to me. However, even though I love my mother—she’s been a good mother to me, and we have a good relationship—I have never forgotten that she threatened me with that 35 years ago. Your daughter will remember forever what your wife has said to her, even if it is an empty threat and even if she understands it to be one. Threatening to disown someone or cut them off is an incredibly cruel statement to make.
It’s really good that your daughter has shared with you—it means she trusts you. She doesn’t trust your wife, and why would she? So I recommend you (or ideally a therapist) try to get your wife to understand ASAP that the way she is acting is a perfect way to ensure your daughter never confides anything to her and it may lead to estrangement down the road. This isn’t a cultural difference that requires relativist acceptance. Your wife needs to think about the relationship she wants to have with your daughter, not just now but decades from now.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:02 PM on November 3 [14 favorites]
If your daughter believes, even a little, that your wife would or even might follow through on her threat - which I find it hard to think she doesn't - then your wife's words were EMOTIONAL ABUSE.
Full stop.
Even, yes, if it's a cultural norm. Cultural norms can - and often are - abusive, especially when the population of that culture just continues doing it because that's the way its been done.
That said, you describe much bigger issues here than a night (or even ten) of teenage drinking.
The way to appropriately deal with teenage drinking - or even drug experimentation - is this:
- You tell them you'd prefer they didn't, and then you give them tools to stay safe if they do.
- First off, that they absolutely DO NOT drive or get in a car with anyone that is impaired. That you will 100% come get them and/or any of their friends that needs it, no questions asked, any time of the day or night, no matter what else is going on or what you're doing in the morning.
- The priority is ALIVE and SAFE.
- After that, you also ensure them that they are to call you no matter what complicated situation they get into. That you will help solve it, but you have to KNOW to help solve it. If they're too afraid of the consequences for honesty or asking for help, they won't.
- And then, when one of them calls, you listen, take a deep breath, and DO NOT REACT. Save it. It's irrelevant BS at that moment... your job as a parent is to simply do what needs done. If that means picking them up at a party, on a random street somewhere, in the middle of the woods, the hospital or the police station, or wherever, you just do it. All the info you really need from that call is the location, how many you're transporting, and a heads up about what type of situation you're arriving in. And you do not bring (or even tell) anyone with you that cannot simply BE CALM and do what needs done.
And that's how they learn they can trust you, rely on you, respect you, and follow your guidance.
If you're doing it right, you're almost certainly going to get some of those calls. Do it all the way right, and those calls might even occur from their friends - or when they're adults.
And you just keep doing it right. And then they'll do the same for their friends. Someday, for their own kids.
And the world is a little bit safer for us all.
And yes, you can talk about it later. When everyone is sober, calm, and ready. Chances are, your child will come to you... thank you... and be ready to talk it through. Doesn't mean they won't make another mistake, but at least they're here to make it.
posted by stormyteal at 8:47 PM on November 3 [8 favorites]
Full stop.
Even, yes, if it's a cultural norm. Cultural norms can - and often are - abusive, especially when the population of that culture just continues doing it because that's the way its been done.
That said, you describe much bigger issues here than a night (or even ten) of teenage drinking.
The way to appropriately deal with teenage drinking - or even drug experimentation - is this:
- You tell them you'd prefer they didn't, and then you give them tools to stay safe if they do.
- First off, that they absolutely DO NOT drive or get in a car with anyone that is impaired. That you will 100% come get them and/or any of their friends that needs it, no questions asked, any time of the day or night, no matter what else is going on or what you're doing in the morning.
- The priority is ALIVE and SAFE.
- After that, you also ensure them that they are to call you no matter what complicated situation they get into. That you will help solve it, but you have to KNOW to help solve it. If they're too afraid of the consequences for honesty or asking for help, they won't.
- And then, when one of them calls, you listen, take a deep breath, and DO NOT REACT. Save it. It's irrelevant BS at that moment... your job as a parent is to simply do what needs done. If that means picking them up at a party, on a random street somewhere, in the middle of the woods, the hospital or the police station, or wherever, you just do it. All the info you really need from that call is the location, how many you're transporting, and a heads up about what type of situation you're arriving in. And you do not bring (or even tell) anyone with you that cannot simply BE CALM and do what needs done.
And that's how they learn they can trust you, rely on you, respect you, and follow your guidance.
If you're doing it right, you're almost certainly going to get some of those calls. Do it all the way right, and those calls might even occur from their friends - or when they're adults.
And you just keep doing it right. And then they'll do the same for their friends. Someday, for their own kids.
And the world is a little bit safer for us all.
And yes, you can talk about it later. When everyone is sober, calm, and ready. Chances are, your child will come to you... thank you... and be ready to talk it through. Doesn't mean they won't make another mistake, but at least they're here to make it.
posted by stormyteal at 8:47 PM on November 3 [8 favorites]
that's how they learn they can trust you, rely on you, respect you, and follow your guidance.
This, exactly. The way you get kids to do the things you want them to are (a) want reasonable things from them and (b) give them every opportunity to learn what reasonable, responsible, competent behaviour looks like so that they come to see the value in emulating it.
A big part of that involves doing your level best never to bullshit them.
The line that recreational drugs are Just Bad and that avoiding them is non-negotiable is absolutely bullshit, and the fact that it's what 80% of the adult world tells 100% of the kid world doesn't stop kids from recognizing it instantly as such.
A much better line, one that kids will sense the truth of, is this: recreational drugs are like a loan. They let us borrow some amount of feeling good from our future, but we always end up paying that back, with interest, so it's important not to get ourselves into a bind where we're borrowing more than we could ever pay back.
Which is why rec drugs are best used recreationally rather than in an attempt to deal with pressing personal problems. Getting high or hammered can obviously make our problems stop bothering us for a while, but it's a super blunt instrument and the very same effects that make us stop caring about our problems also make us stop caring about our safety or health.
Which is why I'm always on about putting rec drugs off until you're in a position to enjoy them without that becoming a burning need, to research your drugs of choice so you pick substances that don't charge you punitive rates of interest on the payback, and to get them from people who are not already so drug-fucked that they don't care what they're actually selling you. And I know you already know who those people are, and I know you already know why trusting them is a bad idea.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on November 3 [11 favorites]
This, exactly. The way you get kids to do the things you want them to are (a) want reasonable things from them and (b) give them every opportunity to learn what reasonable, responsible, competent behaviour looks like so that they come to see the value in emulating it.
A big part of that involves doing your level best never to bullshit them.
The line that recreational drugs are Just Bad and that avoiding them is non-negotiable is absolutely bullshit, and the fact that it's what 80% of the adult world tells 100% of the kid world doesn't stop kids from recognizing it instantly as such.
A much better line, one that kids will sense the truth of, is this: recreational drugs are like a loan. They let us borrow some amount of feeling good from our future, but we always end up paying that back, with interest, so it's important not to get ourselves into a bind where we're borrowing more than we could ever pay back.
Which is why rec drugs are best used recreationally rather than in an attempt to deal with pressing personal problems. Getting high or hammered can obviously make our problems stop bothering us for a while, but it's a super blunt instrument and the very same effects that make us stop caring about our problems also make us stop caring about our safety or health.
Which is why I'm always on about putting rec drugs off until you're in a position to enjoy them without that becoming a burning need, to research your drugs of choice so you pick substances that don't charge you punitive rates of interest on the payback, and to get them from people who are not already so drug-fucked that they don't care what they're actually selling you. And I know you already know who those people are, and I know you already know why trusting them is a bad idea.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on November 3 [11 favorites]
The third tradition of Alanon states “The relatives of alcoholics, when gathered together for mutual aid, may call themselves an Al‑Anon Family Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. The only requirement for membership is that there be a problem of alcoholism in a relative or friend.” Who doesn’t have a friend or relative with alcoholism? Therefore anyone can be a member. You could check out a couple different meetings. Since Covid, a lot are on Zoom.
posted by larrybob at 4:32 AM on November 4
posted by larrybob at 4:32 AM on November 4
Hey, let's figure out how to support nandaro without negative statements or suggesting things that he might not be able to do. He is asking for advice on working with his teen daughter. The only thing he can control at this point is his own actions, not his wife's or his daughter's actions.
In your ideal worlds, you can force people to go into therapy by telling them they are being abusive but that doesn't usually work well in the real world. So, taking steps to empathize and reinforce him positively is probably more productive and he can influence his daughter in certain ways without being in your face which teens usually hate.
I know you are thinking thoughts in your head but check yourself and think critically.
posted by ichimunki at 6:55 AM on November 4 [5 favorites]
In your ideal worlds, you can force people to go into therapy by telling them they are being abusive but that doesn't usually work well in the real world. So, taking steps to empathize and reinforce him positively is probably more productive and he can influence his daughter in certain ways without being in your face which teens usually hate.
I know you are thinking thoughts in your head but check yourself and think critically.
posted by ichimunki at 6:55 AM on November 4 [5 favorites]
My parents, mainly my father, were tee-totalers. I grew up in a dry county. I still started drinking regularly around 16. Both of my parents were extremely strict and would not grant me the normal leeway a kid in the late 80s and early 90s had in high school. I was threatened with military school if my grades dropped, complete and total grounding and removal of all afterschool activities if I acted out, and while it was never said, the implication was that if they every caught me drinking or doing drugs, I'd be locked away until I was 18.
As a result, I have never been someone who tells my parents about my struggles until they are long over. If ever. I drank heavily in my late 20s, used a variety of illegal substances all throughout my youth but I managed to hit 50 with no major dramas. Drinking and other issues aside, your wife is setting herself up for a very distant and removed relationship with her daughter. I loved both of my parents but I rarely let my guard down around them after I left home. Even now, if they were still here, I have some pains and emotional hurts that I don't think I could share with them because of the fear of judgement and so forth. When the person who is supposed to love you unconditionally says "I won't love you as much if you do x,y,z" it changes how you think about people and deeply close relationships. I've stayed in relationships that were disastrous because at least those people loved me for who I was.
Yeah, the drinking is an issue and something that needs to be gently sorted out, but the bigger issue is how your wife is putting a wall between her and her daughter that will last for the rest of their lives. And it will hurt them both.
posted by teleri025 at 7:20 AM on November 4 [6 favorites]
As a result, I have never been someone who tells my parents about my struggles until they are long over. If ever. I drank heavily in my late 20s, used a variety of illegal substances all throughout my youth but I managed to hit 50 with no major dramas. Drinking and other issues aside, your wife is setting herself up for a very distant and removed relationship with her daughter. I loved both of my parents but I rarely let my guard down around them after I left home. Even now, if they were still here, I have some pains and emotional hurts that I don't think I could share with them because of the fear of judgement and so forth. When the person who is supposed to love you unconditionally says "I won't love you as much if you do x,y,z" it changes how you think about people and deeply close relationships. I've stayed in relationships that were disastrous because at least those people loved me for who I was.
Yeah, the drinking is an issue and something that needs to be gently sorted out, but the bigger issue is how your wife is putting a wall between her and her daughter that will last for the rest of their lives. And it will hurt them both.
posted by teleri025 at 7:20 AM on November 4 [6 favorites]
I think therapy is the right answer. Yes, it's great that daughter admitted this to you and discussed it. But unchecked in a family dynamic? it can get weird.
I had an uncle (mom's brother) who was a life long heavy substance abuser, alcohol, cannabis, heroin, pills) who somehow managed to survive a liver transplant around age 60 and then lived to his mid 70s! He was a union ironworker who was very athletic and built in his youth and it probably prolonged his life. Towards the end he was a complete mess, though.
Anyway, EVERY time alcohol or drugs was discussed in my family, my mom would go on a long, rubber-stamp rant about her brother and how messed up he was/is to the point where I could probably recite her words verbatim. She did this out of concern and love (she drank a little in her youth and smoked weed a couple handsful of times, but never got hooked by anything, not even cigarettes). My dad grew up poor and never touched any weed ever, smoked cigarettes but quit cold turkey when he was 20, and would drink maybe a six pack of beer every 2 weeks.
Why am I mentioning all this? Because I learned to very much to hide and never mention any of my usage behavior because I wanted to avoid the Incoming Lecture (which I ended up hearing all the time anyway). Oddly, I smoked weed a lot in my late teens and didn't really drink much at all until my mid 20s. But I became a very heavy alcohol abuser, "high functioning" (I built my life around it, no kids, no cars) and worked in advertising where booze was a part of the package. I spiraled down through my 30s and 40s and didn't quit until I turned 47. I was a goddamned suicidal mess. Six years sober last month. Doing well by the way, but wish I had quit a decade plus earlier!
Anyway, I believe there needs to be a moderator (therapist) in a dynamic like yours. My parents loved me and were not abusive, but my mother's method of dealing with these issues was just... not good. I do not blame her one bit. She did what she thought was best.
Your wife "threatening abandonment" is maybe what your wife thinks is the best thing to do (whether she would go through with it or not), but it's not a healthy way to discuss the issues here. It's a bloody terrible way to approach it. I do not "blame" your wife, as there's a very good chance she is saying/acting out of love, but it's not a good way for parents to interact with their children about important issues of any kind.
Good luck and keep talking to your daughter and supporting her. I think it's immensely positive that she spoke to you about this and I am not predicting gloom and doom in this case by any means! 16 year olds drinking is normal. But secretive, hiding behavior can just get worse and worse..
posted by SoberHighland at 7:24 AM on November 4 [2 favorites]
I had an uncle (mom's brother) who was a life long heavy substance abuser, alcohol, cannabis, heroin, pills) who somehow managed to survive a liver transplant around age 60 and then lived to his mid 70s! He was a union ironworker who was very athletic and built in his youth and it probably prolonged his life. Towards the end he was a complete mess, though.
Anyway, EVERY time alcohol or drugs was discussed in my family, my mom would go on a long, rubber-stamp rant about her brother and how messed up he was/is to the point where I could probably recite her words verbatim. She did this out of concern and love (she drank a little in her youth and smoked weed a couple handsful of times, but never got hooked by anything, not even cigarettes). My dad grew up poor and never touched any weed ever, smoked cigarettes but quit cold turkey when he was 20, and would drink maybe a six pack of beer every 2 weeks.
Why am I mentioning all this? Because I learned to very much to hide and never mention any of my usage behavior because I wanted to avoid the Incoming Lecture (which I ended up hearing all the time anyway). Oddly, I smoked weed a lot in my late teens and didn't really drink much at all until my mid 20s. But I became a very heavy alcohol abuser, "high functioning" (I built my life around it, no kids, no cars) and worked in advertising where booze was a part of the package. I spiraled down through my 30s and 40s and didn't quit until I turned 47. I was a goddamned suicidal mess. Six years sober last month. Doing well by the way, but wish I had quit a decade plus earlier!
Anyway, I believe there needs to be a moderator (therapist) in a dynamic like yours. My parents loved me and were not abusive, but my mother's method of dealing with these issues was just... not good. I do not blame her one bit. She did what she thought was best.
Your wife "threatening abandonment" is maybe what your wife thinks is the best thing to do (whether she would go through with it or not), but it's not a healthy way to discuss the issues here. It's a bloody terrible way to approach it. I do not "blame" your wife, as there's a very good chance she is saying/acting out of love, but it's not a good way for parents to interact with their children about important issues of any kind.
Good luck and keep talking to your daughter and supporting her. I think it's immensely positive that she spoke to you about this and I am not predicting gloom and doom in this case by any means! 16 year olds drinking is normal. But secretive, hiding behavior can just get worse and worse..
posted by SoberHighland at 7:24 AM on November 4 [2 favorites]
Back in the day, I was a teenager and wanted to go to a movie at night. My parents didn't want me to go. I argued with them. My parents flew into a rage and told me not to come crying to them if I went out at night and got sexually assaulted in the parking lot.
So when I *was* sexually assaulted (not that night, but later in my young adulthood), I took them at my parents at their word that I was on my own and that they would absolutely not be safe, trusted people to get support from, and I never told them.
Tell yourself what you want to, but for a child, a threat to abandon them as punishment tells them their parent is not safe. If they don't trust you, that's when they get in the car with the drunk driver instead of calling you for a ride because "mom said she would abandon me if I drank at a party" and then there's a horrific car wreck and you don't have a kid anymore.
posted by cnidaria at 9:17 AM on November 4 [10 favorites]
So when I *was* sexually assaulted (not that night, but later in my young adulthood), I took them at my parents at their word that I was on my own and that they would absolutely not be safe, trusted people to get support from, and I never told them.
Tell yourself what you want to, but for a child, a threat to abandon them as punishment tells them their parent is not safe. If they don't trust you, that's when they get in the car with the drunk driver instead of calling you for a ride because "mom said she would abandon me if I drank at a party" and then there's a horrific car wreck and you don't have a kid anymore.
posted by cnidaria at 9:17 AM on November 4 [10 favorites]
Some others have said this, but I want to repeat it:
I promised her that she could tell me anything, and I’d keep it confidential unless her safety was at risk or if I felt I couldn’t help and needed to find someone who could. I assured her that if it ever came to that, I’d tell her first before involving anyone else.
And How do I support my daughter, maintain her trust...
She took you at your word, which is a remarkable thing. You can't violate that, no matter what. Or you may very well never hear about anything she does again.
Keep her trust, and the lines of communication open, by honoring your commitment.
posted by Gorgik at 12:14 PM on November 4 [5 favorites]
I promised her that she could tell me anything, and I’d keep it confidential unless her safety was at risk or if I felt I couldn’t help and needed to find someone who could. I assured her that if it ever came to that, I’d tell her first before involving anyone else.
And How do I support my daughter, maintain her trust...
She took you at your word, which is a remarkable thing. You can't violate that, no matter what. Or you may very well never hear about anything she does again.
Keep her trust, and the lines of communication open, by honoring your commitment.
posted by Gorgik at 12:14 PM on November 4 [5 favorites]
> Hey, let's figure out how to support nandaro without negative statements or suggesting things that he might not be able to do. He is asking for advice on working with his teen daughter. The only thing he can control at this point is his own actions, not his wife's or his daughter's actions.
OP has power to effect change without controlling anyone else, just changing their own attitude, actions, and words.
OP can stop making excuses for their wife inside their own head, stop dismissing it as well meant and not a big deal. OP can take their wife's behavior seriously, they can take their wife's impact on their daughter seriously. As a result of personally understanding that their wife's words are fucked up, OP will be able to:
1. Prevent themself from sharing what their daughter told them with their wife, i.e. keep their promise to their daughter to keep this confidential, thus preserving the daughter's trust and becoming the safe parent that the daughter desperately needs.
2. Speak to their wife in a manner that OP decides is best, to suggest their wife stop thinking/speaking in terms of abandonment. This need not be an angry confrontation. It can be a gentle conversation that's sharing OP's concern with their wife. She may be able to hear OP, and might be moved to change her mind, apologize, and fix things because of the conversation.
3. OP might be able to speak with their daughter about how her mom's words were unacceptable, and though the mom meant well and spoke out of love, OP understands that the daughter might now be less trusting of her mother. OP might then invite their daughter to share her thoughts about the mom's threat of abandonment. From here OP might be able to offer reassurance, comfort, and possibly even mediation to help open up better lines of communication between mother and daughter.
4. From their private understanding that threatening to abandon a child is wrong and damaging to the child, OP may now decide to suggest to the whole family that they should seek family therapy - without making open accusations or causing ugly confrontations. Just a calm and concerned suggestion for family therapy to iron out mutual relationships within the family.
None of these outcomes WHICH OP FULLY CONTROLS AND CAN DO are of negligible impact for the family. OP, acting entirely alone, using the information on this thread to change only their own behavior and words and actions, can turn this family's dynamic around from a toxic one to a healthy one.
A person does not need to control anyone else's actions in order to have an impact on other people. A person like OP can speak and act with love, and that can be enough to nudge their loved ones to move in the right direction.
posted by MiraK at 12:31 PM on November 4 [6 favorites]
OP has power to effect change without controlling anyone else, just changing their own attitude, actions, and words.
OP can stop making excuses for their wife inside their own head, stop dismissing it as well meant and not a big deal. OP can take their wife's behavior seriously, they can take their wife's impact on their daughter seriously. As a result of personally understanding that their wife's words are fucked up, OP will be able to:
1. Prevent themself from sharing what their daughter told them with their wife, i.e. keep their promise to their daughter to keep this confidential, thus preserving the daughter's trust and becoming the safe parent that the daughter desperately needs.
2. Speak to their wife in a manner that OP decides is best, to suggest their wife stop thinking/speaking in terms of abandonment. This need not be an angry confrontation. It can be a gentle conversation that's sharing OP's concern with their wife. She may be able to hear OP, and might be moved to change her mind, apologize, and fix things because of the conversation.
3. OP might be able to speak with their daughter about how her mom's words were unacceptable, and though the mom meant well and spoke out of love, OP understands that the daughter might now be less trusting of her mother. OP might then invite their daughter to share her thoughts about the mom's threat of abandonment. From here OP might be able to offer reassurance, comfort, and possibly even mediation to help open up better lines of communication between mother and daughter.
4. From their private understanding that threatening to abandon a child is wrong and damaging to the child, OP may now decide to suggest to the whole family that they should seek family therapy - without making open accusations or causing ugly confrontations. Just a calm and concerned suggestion for family therapy to iron out mutual relationships within the family.
None of these outcomes WHICH OP FULLY CONTROLS AND CAN DO are of negligible impact for the family. OP, acting entirely alone, using the information on this thread to change only their own behavior and words and actions, can turn this family's dynamic around from a toxic one to a healthy one.
A person does not need to control anyone else's actions in order to have an impact on other people. A person like OP can speak and act with love, and that can be enough to nudge their loved ones to move in the right direction.
posted by MiraK at 12:31 PM on November 4 [6 favorites]
Your wife's threat gave your child a playbook for how to prove she's her own person and differentiate. And now she's playing it out. This seems like behavior well within the norms for people her age. It seems like it's pushed your buttons. But I want to emphasize what you told her:
I promised her that she could tell me anything, and I’d keep it confidential unless her safety was at risk or if I felt I couldn’t help and needed to find someone who could. I assured her that if it ever came to that, I’d tell her first before involving anyone else.
You said this because you wanted it to be true. Now that means you need to make it true. You can't tell her mom. I'm sorry, but you can't. You essentially said you wouldn't. If you tell her mom, you are going to damage your relationship with your daughter such that she might not come to you again when she has secrets she feels some shame about.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:09 PM on November 4 [7 favorites]
I promised her that she could tell me anything, and I’d keep it confidential unless her safety was at risk or if I felt I couldn’t help and needed to find someone who could. I assured her that if it ever came to that, I’d tell her first before involving anyone else.
You said this because you wanted it to be true. Now that means you need to make it true. You can't tell her mom. I'm sorry, but you can't. You essentially said you wouldn't. If you tell her mom, you are going to damage your relationship with your daughter such that she might not come to you again when she has secrets she feels some shame about.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:09 PM on November 4 [7 favorites]
Hey, nandaro - thank you for wanting to support your kiddo and manage your fears! Like some other folks in this thread, I learned very, very early that my parents could not handle my anger or sadness or confusion, because it triggered their own.
I strongly encourage you to try to see your own childhood experience as separate from what’s happening with your daughter. She is not your dad, and it wouldn’t be fair to play out with her the feelings that you have about *his* choices. Have you journaled about your childhood experiences? That could be helpful while you wait for your next therapy appointment. You could call a warmline and talk for a while about what happened, ask for a meeting with a spiritual leader if you have one, reach out to a sibling or friend, take out some books from a library, ask another Ask about resources that have helped people work through similar experiences.
I actually think it might make things more difficult if you spend the next few weeks focusing on asking advice about your daughter, or looking up resources on how to prevent teenage drinking. Those are valuable and reasonable things to do, but they don’t address *your* feelings. The first point you being up in your post is about family history, about your dad’s drinking, neglect, and emotional abuse, and that hearing that your daughter had been drinking made you feel “hurt, sad, and fearful”. Are those feelings about your daughter, or your dad?
It’s reasonable to be concerned about your kiddo’s safety, but a few nights of drinking at age 16 does not mean she is spiraling into alcohol abuse or emotional abuse. Some people drink to control or manage their feelings, but it’s only one strategy of many. If you can express, explore, and integrate your feelings about your dad, it will probably be a lot easier for you to support your kid to make healthy choices from a place of confidence and self-love, rather than fear and judgment. I can’t imagine you want your daughter to feel pressure not to drink so that *you* don’t feel hurt, sadness, or fear - especially if those feelings aren’t really about her.
Wishing you luck!
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 11:54 PM on November 4 [6 favorites]
I strongly encourage you to try to see your own childhood experience as separate from what’s happening with your daughter. She is not your dad, and it wouldn’t be fair to play out with her the feelings that you have about *his* choices. Have you journaled about your childhood experiences? That could be helpful while you wait for your next therapy appointment. You could call a warmline and talk for a while about what happened, ask for a meeting with a spiritual leader if you have one, reach out to a sibling or friend, take out some books from a library, ask another Ask about resources that have helped people work through similar experiences.
I actually think it might make things more difficult if you spend the next few weeks focusing on asking advice about your daughter, or looking up resources on how to prevent teenage drinking. Those are valuable and reasonable things to do, but they don’t address *your* feelings. The first point you being up in your post is about family history, about your dad’s drinking, neglect, and emotional abuse, and that hearing that your daughter had been drinking made you feel “hurt, sad, and fearful”. Are those feelings about your daughter, or your dad?
It’s reasonable to be concerned about your kiddo’s safety, but a few nights of drinking at age 16 does not mean she is spiraling into alcohol abuse or emotional abuse. Some people drink to control or manage their feelings, but it’s only one strategy of many. If you can express, explore, and integrate your feelings about your dad, it will probably be a lot easier for you to support your kid to make healthy choices from a place of confidence and self-love, rather than fear and judgment. I can’t imagine you want your daughter to feel pressure not to drink so that *you* don’t feel hurt, sadness, or fear - especially if those feelings aren’t really about her.
Wishing you luck!
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 11:54 PM on November 4 [6 favorites]
This thread is just adding to my personal cache of stories about people who started using substances young, frequently motivated by some kind of rebellion; proceeded from substance experimentation to substance abuse, largely due to a lack of competent adult guidance around how to use substances safely and appropriately; and ended up with worse problems down the track.
What I'm not seeing here are the kind of stories in my other personal cache, the ones that are about people who started using perception-altering chemicals recreationally in their mid twenties or later, and have ended up with lives made on balance more enjoyable by moderate, occasional use of their recreational drugs of choice despite having taken the obligatory absurd risks along the way.
I am one of those people, many of my best friends are more of those people, and my fondest wish is that if my kids end up with drug use stories of their own, they will be of this second kind. If anybody has similar personal testimony to offer here, that would probably be helpful.
The stark contrast between these two kinds of story, and the rarity of having the outcome of either follow on from the beginning of the other, is the basis of the advice I've consistently given my kids outlined upthread.
I should also note that there's a pretty strong correlation between the kinds of drugs involved and the likelihood of getting into difficulty with them. Recreational drugs that are easier to become dependent on to the extent of severe quality of life impairment include alcohol, tobacco, opiates, tranquillisers and stimulants. Drugs I've more often seen impart lessons of lasting value include weed and psychedelics.
So if your daughter's redeye is actually down to weed use rather than drinking, I'd personally worry less about that than if she were instead or also drinking, despite the likely perception on her part that if "mere" drinking is unacceptable then a "real drug" like weed would have to count as mortal sin.
If it turns out that she's been admitting to drinking as some kind of coverup for what actually turns out to be weed use, I'd personally not treat that as any kind of lie. She's being frank with you about her substance use and that's the best attitude she could have even if she needs to use "drinking" as code, for what many others in this thread have already identified as completely understandable reasons.
If she does eventually tell you that she's using weed by smoking it, I'd gently point out that cannabis is a well known gateway drug to tobacco and that a nicotine addiction is a huge millstone for anybody to hang around their own neck, and I'd advise her to avoid the communal mixed mull bowl to the greatest extent that peer pressure allows.
Regardless of what she's using, I'd be encouraging her to take note of how she felt before, during and after each session, so as to discover for herself exactly what the substance involved is actually doing both for and to her. Without deliberately doing that, it's easy to forget about everything except the during part.
I'd be teaching her that the Big Red Flag is feeling bad before, good during and worse after (even a little bit). Down that path, according to all my considerable vicarious experience, lies a very high risk of dependence and long term grinding misery. Those interest payments can really stack up.
Feeling good before, great during and a bit miz on the comedown is a sign that she's doing a pleasurable drug the healthy way. Good before, fascinated during and deeply analytical after: psychedelics for the win, though this pattern is not super likely in a teen brain.
posted by flabdablet at 3:02 AM on November 5 [4 favorites]
What I'm not seeing here are the kind of stories in my other personal cache, the ones that are about people who started using perception-altering chemicals recreationally in their mid twenties or later, and have ended up with lives made on balance more enjoyable by moderate, occasional use of their recreational drugs of choice despite having taken the obligatory absurd risks along the way.
I am one of those people, many of my best friends are more of those people, and my fondest wish is that if my kids end up with drug use stories of their own, they will be of this second kind. If anybody has similar personal testimony to offer here, that would probably be helpful.
The stark contrast between these two kinds of story, and the rarity of having the outcome of either follow on from the beginning of the other, is the basis of the advice I've consistently given my kids outlined upthread.
I should also note that there's a pretty strong correlation between the kinds of drugs involved and the likelihood of getting into difficulty with them. Recreational drugs that are easier to become dependent on to the extent of severe quality of life impairment include alcohol, tobacco, opiates, tranquillisers and stimulants. Drugs I've more often seen impart lessons of lasting value include weed and psychedelics.
So if your daughter's redeye is actually down to weed use rather than drinking, I'd personally worry less about that than if she were instead or also drinking, despite the likely perception on her part that if "mere" drinking is unacceptable then a "real drug" like weed would have to count as mortal sin.
If it turns out that she's been admitting to drinking as some kind of coverup for what actually turns out to be weed use, I'd personally not treat that as any kind of lie. She's being frank with you about her substance use and that's the best attitude she could have even if she needs to use "drinking" as code, for what many others in this thread have already identified as completely understandable reasons.
If she does eventually tell you that she's using weed by smoking it, I'd gently point out that cannabis is a well known gateway drug to tobacco and that a nicotine addiction is a huge millstone for anybody to hang around their own neck, and I'd advise her to avoid the communal mixed mull bowl to the greatest extent that peer pressure allows.
Regardless of what she's using, I'd be encouraging her to take note of how she felt before, during and after each session, so as to discover for herself exactly what the substance involved is actually doing both for and to her. Without deliberately doing that, it's easy to forget about everything except the during part.
I'd be teaching her that the Big Red Flag is feeling bad before, good during and worse after (even a little bit). Down that path, according to all my considerable vicarious experience, lies a very high risk of dependence and long term grinding misery. Those interest payments can really stack up.
Feeling good before, great during and a bit miz on the comedown is a sign that she's doing a pleasurable drug the healthy way. Good before, fascinated during and deeply analytical after: psychedelics for the win, though this pattern is not super likely in a teen brain.
posted by flabdablet at 3:02 AM on November 5 [4 favorites]
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Just as a note, it's very unusual to hear that a parent would even think of abandoning a teenager who tries alcohol let alone threaten it. You guys need an impartial outside perspective introduced into and opening up your family system.
So it seems like getting to a family therapist is really the main priority.
Her drinking might be the issue you discuss on day one but it seems like it's just part of a whole series of dynamics to learn how to approach together as your family enters this new phase of parenting an older kid.
posted by ponie at 1:07 AM on November 3 [84 favorites]