Could my husband's paranoid anxiety improve?
October 29, 2024 6:22 AM
My husband’s (trauma-based?) anxiety runs to paranoia, and he occasionally makes angry and hurtful accusations at me. None of the accusations are true and are not really based in reality. Could this get better?
My husband has been seeing a therapist who specialises in narcissistic abuse since spring of this year, following a set of realisations about past relationships and then decisions to cut contact with his best friend, his parents, and finally his only sibling. He tells me his therapist has tentatively suggested he may have cPTSD. Before he started therapy, he would in effect try to use me as his therapist and I have listened to him talk for many, many hours. I am sad that he has so few people in his life now but consider that he is better placed than I am to decide on the kind of relationships he should have with his family and friends.
My husband has also experienced IBS-related agoraphobia for about 8 years rarely leaving the house, and is entirely dependent on me financially. He came out to me, and my friends and family as bisexual early in the year. He is not engaging in any medical care except for his weekly therapist appointment on Zoom. We have sex very infrequently (and this is a mismatch for him) but otherwise have a very affectionate and loving relationship. He has always been supportive of me and been proud of my accomplishments inside and outside work. Before these very occasional accusations started happening, I felt generally like the character in Alanis Morrissette’s Head over Feet.
He clearly has symptoms of anxiety including physical symptoms such as feeling dizzy and sometimes expresses paranoid thoughts about eg tradespeople that come to the house. Very occasionally he is angry at me. Sometimes this will be with a raised voice, other times with what feels to me like quite cold-blooded venom, sometimes it will be preceded by an obvious short period of silent treatment. It is always a long, confusing monologue, with vague insinuations and an insistence that I know exactly what he is talking about. He frequently claims that people say things ‘subtextually’ and sometimes specifically that I have clearly communicated something related to his insinuations ‘subtextually’. Although I have never felt at risk of violence, when this anger happens I feel very physically frightened. I tend to remain silent, and my thoughts are focused on escape and the risks of escalation. I find his train of thought very difficult to follow, it is not concrete or specific and I am sometimes in panic mode. I am often very literal and am not sure that I really know what he means when he talks about things being ‘subtextual’. Eventually he will make a specific accusation, or I will say something and that will lead to an accusation.
The accusations so far have been
• I am withholding sex deliberately to manipulate him
• I lack empathy and am manipulative
• I treat him badly in general and would be unhappy if he was no longer agoraphobic
• I have been having casual relationships with other people since we met 12 years ago
• I have at some point had a ‘secret relationship’ with a particular female friend.
The accusations are both unexpected and untrue.
After I have denied the accusation, eventually the anger will blow out and dissipate. There might follow another confusing monologue about his state of mind and the trauma he has experienced. Usually, we will then have a decent conversation (either immediately or the next morning) in which he provides some reasoning behind his accusation. They are generally based on very convoluted trains of logic and some snippet of a real-life event or comment. He interprets his accusations and my denials as a way of providing reassurance that I am not going to cause trauma like ‘everyone else’ has. He has some real sympathy for my being upset by them, but I am not convinced he understands how much they distress me. He has told me that wants me to have more empathy for his trauma and accept that he does not mean the accusations personally.
I find each anger and accusation event frightening at the time and destabilising afterwards. They have happened four or five times in this calendar year. Although I love him very much, I think that if they kept continuing, I would eventually want to leave. I am holding out hope that by continuing to work with his therapist they will stop at some point. Am I being wildly unrealistic? I recognise that I have a strong reaction to any anger. Is there anything I could do to reduce the impact it has on me in the meantime?
I unsuccessfully tried to persuade him to go to therapy for a very long time, and in the end, it was a friend of mine who convinced him, so my chances of talking him into any specific actions are low. But if he were asking for advice, what advice would you give?
In terms of my own real-life support, I have my own therapist that I have been seeing weekly for the past two years, mainly to help me cope with my husband’s ill health and related issues. I am honest with my therapist about what is happening. One of my close friends also knows what is happening and I have a supportive colleague who knows some things. I have access to more than enough money to leave him in the short-term if I needed to and divorce would be expensive but not absolutely impoverishing.
My husband has been seeing a therapist who specialises in narcissistic abuse since spring of this year, following a set of realisations about past relationships and then decisions to cut contact with his best friend, his parents, and finally his only sibling. He tells me his therapist has tentatively suggested he may have cPTSD. Before he started therapy, he would in effect try to use me as his therapist and I have listened to him talk for many, many hours. I am sad that he has so few people in his life now but consider that he is better placed than I am to decide on the kind of relationships he should have with his family and friends.
My husband has also experienced IBS-related agoraphobia for about 8 years rarely leaving the house, and is entirely dependent on me financially. He came out to me, and my friends and family as bisexual early in the year. He is not engaging in any medical care except for his weekly therapist appointment on Zoom. We have sex very infrequently (and this is a mismatch for him) but otherwise have a very affectionate and loving relationship. He has always been supportive of me and been proud of my accomplishments inside and outside work. Before these very occasional accusations started happening, I felt generally like the character in Alanis Morrissette’s Head over Feet.
He clearly has symptoms of anxiety including physical symptoms such as feeling dizzy and sometimes expresses paranoid thoughts about eg tradespeople that come to the house. Very occasionally he is angry at me. Sometimes this will be with a raised voice, other times with what feels to me like quite cold-blooded venom, sometimes it will be preceded by an obvious short period of silent treatment. It is always a long, confusing monologue, with vague insinuations and an insistence that I know exactly what he is talking about. He frequently claims that people say things ‘subtextually’ and sometimes specifically that I have clearly communicated something related to his insinuations ‘subtextually’. Although I have never felt at risk of violence, when this anger happens I feel very physically frightened. I tend to remain silent, and my thoughts are focused on escape and the risks of escalation. I find his train of thought very difficult to follow, it is not concrete or specific and I am sometimes in panic mode. I am often very literal and am not sure that I really know what he means when he talks about things being ‘subtextual’. Eventually he will make a specific accusation, or I will say something and that will lead to an accusation.
The accusations so far have been
• I am withholding sex deliberately to manipulate him
• I lack empathy and am manipulative
• I treat him badly in general and would be unhappy if he was no longer agoraphobic
• I have been having casual relationships with other people since we met 12 years ago
• I have at some point had a ‘secret relationship’ with a particular female friend.
The accusations are both unexpected and untrue.
After I have denied the accusation, eventually the anger will blow out and dissipate. There might follow another confusing monologue about his state of mind and the trauma he has experienced. Usually, we will then have a decent conversation (either immediately or the next morning) in which he provides some reasoning behind his accusation. They are generally based on very convoluted trains of logic and some snippet of a real-life event or comment. He interprets his accusations and my denials as a way of providing reassurance that I am not going to cause trauma like ‘everyone else’ has. He has some real sympathy for my being upset by them, but I am not convinced he understands how much they distress me. He has told me that wants me to have more empathy for his trauma and accept that he does not mean the accusations personally.
I find each anger and accusation event frightening at the time and destabilising afterwards. They have happened four or five times in this calendar year. Although I love him very much, I think that if they kept continuing, I would eventually want to leave. I am holding out hope that by continuing to work with his therapist they will stop at some point. Am I being wildly unrealistic? I recognise that I have a strong reaction to any anger. Is there anything I could do to reduce the impact it has on me in the meantime?
I unsuccessfully tried to persuade him to go to therapy for a very long time, and in the end, it was a friend of mine who convinced him, so my chances of talking him into any specific actions are low. But if he were asking for advice, what advice would you give?
In terms of my own real-life support, I have my own therapist that I have been seeing weekly for the past two years, mainly to help me cope with my husband’s ill health and related issues. I am honest with my therapist about what is happening. One of my close friends also knows what is happening and I have a supportive colleague who knows some things. I have access to more than enough money to leave him in the short-term if I needed to and divorce would be expensive but not absolutely impoverishing.
Yes, absolutely, he could get better, if he chooses to work on it with the right set of professionals. It will be a long process under the best of circumstances, and it's not like his abusive behavior will stop while he is in treatment. So even under the best of circumstances you are in for many more months and perhaps years of abuse before this relationship becomes non-abusive to you.
And of course he might well choose not to work on it, not to seek out the right set of professionals, and/or quit working on himself anytime during the process. He may also decide to cut you out of his life the way he has cut everyone else out of his life: he may have had good reasons to estrange himself from his best friend, his only sibling, and his parents, but the fact remains that you are now his only remaining scapegoat on whom to foist all his bad feelings and paranoia, so it would not be a surprise if he decides to dump you unceremoniously as well.
What I'm trying to tell you is: how is sticking with this man worth it for you? It's not only not helping you to be with him, it is actively harming you. Just because he is mentally ill and has cPTSD, doesn't mean his behavior towards you is not abusive.
Abuse is when there is a pattern of mistreatment towards you from someone who has a modicum of power over you (in this case, he has power has a man in a heterosexual relationship with you as a woman). Abuse is abuse, regardless of intent and regardless of where in the psyche the behavior originates. Abuse is not necessarily malicious, for example. Contrary to what you may believe, abuse is almost always perpetrated by people who are not twirling their mustaches - by people who believe they're just fighting for their own survival. It does not magically stop being abuse just because the abuser has a mental illness. You still experience that abuse and its horrible effects on you still exist. Abuse is ALWAYS worth escaping. You owe this to yourself.
If you feel the need to be supportive of him, be supportive of him. Just don't live in the same house and entangle yourself in a romantic relationship with him. This man is in no shape or form capable of being in a romantic relationship with anyone - not just you. Set him free to focus on his healing (or not, as he chooses). He is the only person who can make these choices.
Your job is to choose not to get dragged down with him in the name of "love" and "supportiveness". There can be no love when you are being abused, that is not love. You cannot be supportive by allowing someone to abuse you, that is not how supportiveness works. For your sake and for his, leave.
posted by MiraK at 6:46 AM on October 29
And of course he might well choose not to work on it, not to seek out the right set of professionals, and/or quit working on himself anytime during the process. He may also decide to cut you out of his life the way he has cut everyone else out of his life: he may have had good reasons to estrange himself from his best friend, his only sibling, and his parents, but the fact remains that you are now his only remaining scapegoat on whom to foist all his bad feelings and paranoia, so it would not be a surprise if he decides to dump you unceremoniously as well.
What I'm trying to tell you is: how is sticking with this man worth it for you? It's not only not helping you to be with him, it is actively harming you. Just because he is mentally ill and has cPTSD, doesn't mean his behavior towards you is not abusive.
Abuse is when there is a pattern of mistreatment towards you from someone who has a modicum of power over you (in this case, he has power has a man in a heterosexual relationship with you as a woman). Abuse is abuse, regardless of intent and regardless of where in the psyche the behavior originates. Abuse is not necessarily malicious, for example. Contrary to what you may believe, abuse is almost always perpetrated by people who are not twirling their mustaches - by people who believe they're just fighting for their own survival. It does not magically stop being abuse just because the abuser has a mental illness. You still experience that abuse and its horrible effects on you still exist. Abuse is ALWAYS worth escaping. You owe this to yourself.
If you feel the need to be supportive of him, be supportive of him. Just don't live in the same house and entangle yourself in a romantic relationship with him. This man is in no shape or form capable of being in a romantic relationship with anyone - not just you. Set him free to focus on his healing (or not, as he chooses). He is the only person who can make these choices.
Your job is to choose not to get dragged down with him in the name of "love" and "supportiveness". There can be no love when you are being abused, that is not love. You cannot be supportive by allowing someone to abuse you, that is not how supportiveness works. For your sake and for his, leave.
posted by MiraK at 6:46 AM on October 29
I am so sorry for what you are going through. This sounds a lot like my marriage (which ended after 20 years.) Here are some thoughts that would have helped my former self -
- You cannot fix this. And probably his therapist cannot fix this. He likely needs to be under the care of a psychiatrist and get more intensive treatment and meds to manage his paranoia/delusions. I used to think that enough love and support from me would fix things, but it could not any more than love and support will heal someone with cancer.
- A book that I wish I had read sooner was the classic, "Codependent No More." It helped me understand how I had bent myself into a pretzel to accommodate his mental health issues. And it helped me "un-pretzel" myself and care for my own needs since he was incapable of caring for me due to his disease.
He has turned on everyone else so he will likely turn on you so prepare yourself financially and emotionally for that. Don't commit to large long-term expenditures with him. Establish your own credit if you have not already done so. Remember that this is NOT about you and anything you have done. It is about him and his disease. So you need to gird yourself.
My marriage ended when my husband's increasingly verbally abusive words and narcissistic actions got to a point I could no longer tolerate. Basically, he decided that online emotional affairs were the key to his happiness. I put my foot down and said he had to choose between those relationships or our relationship. He served me with divorce papers within a week. I was shocked because in some ways our relationship was good. But he was determined to focus on his own needs to the exclusion of our relationship needs. I do not wish divorce on you, but it is sometimes not the worst thing that can happen.
But there is a happy ending to this story. I am now 15 years post-divorce and in a very happy satisfying place in my life. I no longer walk around on eggshells, I am financially stable, I have good friends, get to travel, volunteer my time on things that are important to me (rather than needing to give all my attention to my husband.) Life is good, really really good, and it can be for you as well. It may take some effort to get there though.
posted by eleslie at 6:53 AM on October 29
- You cannot fix this. And probably his therapist cannot fix this. He likely needs to be under the care of a psychiatrist and get more intensive treatment and meds to manage his paranoia/delusions. I used to think that enough love and support from me would fix things, but it could not any more than love and support will heal someone with cancer.
- A book that I wish I had read sooner was the classic, "Codependent No More." It helped me understand how I had bent myself into a pretzel to accommodate his mental health issues. And it helped me "un-pretzel" myself and care for my own needs since he was incapable of caring for me due to his disease.
He has turned on everyone else so he will likely turn on you so prepare yourself financially and emotionally for that. Don't commit to large long-term expenditures with him. Establish your own credit if you have not already done so. Remember that this is NOT about you and anything you have done. It is about him and his disease. So you need to gird yourself.
My marriage ended when my husband's increasingly verbally abusive words and narcissistic actions got to a point I could no longer tolerate. Basically, he decided that online emotional affairs were the key to his happiness. I put my foot down and said he had to choose between those relationships or our relationship. He served me with divorce papers within a week. I was shocked because in some ways our relationship was good. But he was determined to focus on his own needs to the exclusion of our relationship needs. I do not wish divorce on you, but it is sometimes not the worst thing that can happen.
But there is a happy ending to this story. I am now 15 years post-divorce and in a very happy satisfying place in my life. I no longer walk around on eggshells, I am financially stable, I have good friends, get to travel, volunteer my time on things that are important to me (rather than needing to give all my attention to my husband.) Life is good, really really good, and it can be for you as well. It may take some effort to get there though.
posted by eleslie at 6:53 AM on October 29
There are many different levels by which people in a marriage can be connected. It sounds like you've lost trust, comfort, enjoyment, sex, fun, dependability, mutual respect, et al. and are down to one: "I still care what happens to him." That doesn't mean you should still be married, it just means you're a nice person.
This is not a good basis for a continuing marriage.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:02 AM on October 29
This is not a good basis for a continuing marriage.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:02 AM on October 29
No, this doesn’t get better. I’m sorry. But it’s all the real him, the whole thing. It’s not like he’s normally nice and occasionally is abusive but that’s not the real him. It’s ALL him. People who verbally abuse like that build up to it and ultimately end up releasing it onto you- they get relief after, because all the bad feelings they had before, they unloaded on you like you’re a trash can- but you feel off kilter and yucky for many days…. Then they’re nice until the bad feelings build up again- unfortunately then they end up unloading on to you again…. But the nice feelings aren’t because they’re really nice- it’s because they got relief after unloading their gross anger and insecurity into/on to you. And you can’t fix things with people like this, in my experience because they can’t be criticized and hate being seen…. So even if you think you got somewhere in a conversation, a few weeks later I bet there will be an episode of verbal abuse…that has been my experience anyway. I wouldn’t choose it if I had any choice and it probably took 2 years of serious verbal abuse and another year after to finally get out of denial and realize I was dealing with a sick person who was sick all the time.
posted by flink at 7:04 AM on October 29
posted by flink at 7:04 AM on October 29
There are a world of possibilities for him to heal himself, but they all take years and I’m not sure you want to be around for the ride.
Also, if he does overcome his problems and start addressing life in a different way, then there is a more than reasonable chance that his relationship with you will no longer be what he wants. Not because you’re a bad person, but because the role that you’re currently filling will no longer exist.
I think DirtyOldTown has it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:09 AM on October 29
Also, if he does overcome his problems and start addressing life in a different way, then there is a more than reasonable chance that his relationship with you will no longer be what he wants. Not because you’re a bad person, but because the role that you’re currently filling will no longer exist.
I think DirtyOldTown has it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:09 AM on October 29
I can see where each of the other comments so far are coming from. With the information given, they make sense. I have a couple questions, still - has the idea of couples counseling ever come up? Sometimes we learn things relationally that are not possible to learn alone, maybe you all have tried it in the past?
Maybe he is so far gone he wouldnt be amenable.. but it occurred to me to ask about it. Can you tell us more please about your relationship before this unfortunate time of mental illness your husband is going through?
posted by elgee at 7:22 AM on October 29
Maybe he is so far gone he wouldnt be amenable.. but it occurred to me to ask about it. Can you tell us more please about your relationship before this unfortunate time of mental illness your husband is going through?
posted by elgee at 7:22 AM on October 29
I’m sorry. There are many red flags in your post, but the biggest one is that you are “feeling very physically frightened” in response to his escalating anger and paranoia. Please listen to that instinct and do not dismiss it. Unfortunately, relationships can go from verbally abusive to physically abusive both quickly and terminally, especially when jealousy and paranoia begin becoming a factor.
I would discuss that feeling in depth with your therapist. You may determine that you should support from a distance; you may determine that the best way to support is to remove yourself as a place where his anger can land. But please do really pay attention to and engage with that feeling: of all the things in your post, it may be the one that matters the most.
posted by moosetracks at 7:26 AM on October 29
I would discuss that feeling in depth with your therapist. You may determine that you should support from a distance; you may determine that the best way to support is to remove yourself as a place where his anger can land. But please do really pay attention to and engage with that feeling: of all the things in your post, it may be the one that matters the most.
posted by moosetracks at 7:26 AM on October 29
Oh, and if you do decide to leave in response to that fear, work with your therapist on a plan to do so safely and with as minimal of conflict as possible.
(I am sorry you are going through this, and I hope things improve for you. It sounds incredibly hard).
posted by moosetracks at 7:30 AM on October 29
(I am sorry you are going through this, and I hope things improve for you. It sounds incredibly hard).
posted by moosetracks at 7:30 AM on October 29
There are many red flags in your post, but the biggest one is that you are “feeling very physically frightened” in response to his escalating anger and paranoia. Please listen to that instinct and do not dismiss it.
Otherwise I would think the other posters might be being a little overhasty in their conclusions, but when you have this feeling, more than once, it's time to go. Especially when his reaction to your telling him about it is not to be aghast and deeply repentant, but to inform you that you need to stop taking it personally. He may not be well, but your being there to facilitate his withdrawal from reality and absorb his abuse will not make him better. Please make a safety plan for your departure (and don't leave any pets with him, if there are any). I'm sorry.
The one thing I would suggest, however, is a meds check. Did his therapist put him on any new medications? It's possible to have a very bad reaction to an individual SSRI, for instance.
posted by praemunire at 7:57 AM on October 29
Otherwise I would think the other posters might be being a little overhasty in their conclusions, but when you have this feeling, more than once, it's time to go. Especially when his reaction to your telling him about it is not to be aghast and deeply repentant, but to inform you that you need to stop taking it personally. He may not be well, but your being there to facilitate his withdrawal from reality and absorb his abuse will not make him better. Please make a safety plan for your departure (and don't leave any pets with him, if there are any). I'm sorry.
The one thing I would suggest, however, is a meds check. Did his therapist put him on any new medications? It's possible to have a very bad reaction to an individual SSRI, for instance.
posted by praemunire at 7:57 AM on October 29
trauma/cptsd is currently a trendy topic in popular/social media discussion of mental health, and when that happens, there are people who discover a lens that is helpful for understanding and processing their life and situation, and there are also people who use that lens maladaptively, to explain or justify why their feelings and actions are "right" and don't need further examination.
even if he's in the former group, he's being a headass and needs to recognize that he's terrorizing you, rather than putting the onus on you to react differently. trauma isn't something that is his sole domain. you are having a physical response ("somatic" might be a word he's encountered in this context) to the stress of these repeated blowups. that is not something that he, or you, should try to gloss over or rationalize away. he needs to find other, less violent strategies for seeking reassurance.
(as an aside, I do not consider 4 or 5 times in 10 months to be "very occasional". that is not sustainable for you as an individual or you and your husband as a relationship.)
is it financially/logistically feasible for you to stay with a friend or family member for a while (even just a week or two?) You need space away from him and the spectre of emotional outbreaks to think about how you want to approach this problem. Arrange it with your friend or family member before you tell him. Have your suitcase of clothes already over there and call or text him. Do not tell him where you are, specifically, just that you're safe and that you will be in touch. He will react very negatively to this idea and accuse you of abandoning him, having an affair, etc etc. Hold firm. at minimum, you need a reset and he needs to understand the gravity of what's happening.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 8:32 AM on October 29
even if he's in the former group, he's being a headass and needs to recognize that he's terrorizing you, rather than putting the onus on you to react differently. trauma isn't something that is his sole domain. you are having a physical response ("somatic" might be a word he's encountered in this context) to the stress of these repeated blowups. that is not something that he, or you, should try to gloss over or rationalize away. he needs to find other, less violent strategies for seeking reassurance.
(as an aside, I do not consider 4 or 5 times in 10 months to be "very occasional". that is not sustainable for you as an individual or you and your husband as a relationship.)
is it financially/logistically feasible for you to stay with a friend or family member for a while (even just a week or two?) You need space away from him and the spectre of emotional outbreaks to think about how you want to approach this problem. Arrange it with your friend or family member before you tell him. Have your suitcase of clothes already over there and call or text him. Do not tell him where you are, specifically, just that you're safe and that you will be in touch. He will react very negatively to this idea and accuse you of abandoning him, having an affair, etc etc. Hold firm. at minimum, you need a reset and he needs to understand the gravity of what's happening.
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 8:32 AM on October 29
To be very explicit, here's why I'm saying your relationship is unambiguously abusive:
1. He shows a repeated pattern of emotional abuse
- "raised voice"
- "quite cold-blooded venom,"
- "an obvious short period of silent treatment."
- a repeated pattern of scapegoating you, specifically, when he is upset (i.e. it is targeted at you, he is not merely losing control)
• insistence that I know exactly what he is talking about
• I am withholding sex deliberately to manipulate him
• I lack empathy and am manipulative
• I treat him badly in general and would be unhappy if he was no longer agoraphobic
• I have been having casual relationships with other people since we met 12 years ago
• I have at some point had a ‘secret relationship’ with a particular female friend.
I cannot underline this enough - THIS IS NO WAY TO LIVE. It is incredibly damaging to your soul to be in a romantic relationship with someone who says these things to you and acts this way towards you 5-6 times every year! There may be people in this world who are strong enough to just shrug these things off and get on with their day but they are incredibly rare and you are not one of them. This is hurting you. This is grinding you down. This is messing with your head. This is making your self worth crumble into dust. This is attacking your very sense of self, your identity, your notion of who you are. I'm not saying you're already in a crumbled state, but you *will* get there if this goes on. Do not keep exposing yourself to this in an intimate setting that should be your safest space.
2. You feel frightened of him
- "when this anger happens I feel very physically frightened. I tend to remain silent, and my thoughts are focused on escape and the risks of escalation."
-"I find each anger and accusation event frightening at the time and destabilising afterwards. "
- "I am sometimes in panic mode."
3. He is completely self-centered: he is using you as an object to soothe himself.
- "he would in effect try to use me as his therapist"
- "He interprets his accusations and my denials as a way of providing reassurance that I am not going to cause trauma like ‘everyone else’ has"
- "I am not convinced he understands how much they distress me."
- "He has told me that wants me to have more empathy for his trauma and accept that he does not mean the accusations personally."
4. He does not respect you, he does not believe you, he does not listen to you.
- "I unsuccessfully tried to persuade him to go to therapy for a very long time, and in the end, it was a friend of mine who convinced him"
- "my chances of talking him into any specific actions are low."
- "I am not convinced he understands how much they distress me"
Furthermore, while the following are not abusive behaviors per se, the following mean that your husband is unlikely to change therefore you are stuck with abuse for as long as you stay with him:
1. He habitually refuses to seek out appropriate levels of care and refuses to take responsibility for his own medical issues
- "He is not engaging in any medical care except for his weekly therapist appointment on Zoom."
-"I unsuccessfully tried to persuade him to go to therapy for a very long time"
2. He is placing undue burdens on you and you feel obligated to fulfill for him (rather than ask that he work towards helping himself)
- " is entirely dependent on me financially."
- "We have sex very infrequently (and this is a mismatch for him)"
3. He has convinced you (or perhaps you have convinced yourself) that enduring this abuse every two months is "very occasional" - a form of minimizing that is characteristic to abusive relationships while not technically in itself an abusive dynamic.
4. You have begun to erase yourself and your needs and your own mental health needs in order to accommodate him, another dynamic that is typical of abusive relationships. You expect yourself (and he expects you to) bend over backwards to accommodate and understand and roll with his cPTSD-style lashing out. What about YOUR sensitivity to raised voices? YOUR tendency to take things literally? He is not expected to accommodate these at all.
posted by MiraK at 8:51 AM on October 29
1. He shows a repeated pattern of emotional abuse
- "raised voice"
- "quite cold-blooded venom,"
- "an obvious short period of silent treatment."
- a repeated pattern of scapegoating you, specifically, when he is upset (i.e. it is targeted at you, he is not merely losing control)
• insistence that I know exactly what he is talking about
• I am withholding sex deliberately to manipulate him
• I lack empathy and am manipulative
• I treat him badly in general and would be unhappy if he was no longer agoraphobic
• I have been having casual relationships with other people since we met 12 years ago
• I have at some point had a ‘secret relationship’ with a particular female friend.
I cannot underline this enough - THIS IS NO WAY TO LIVE. It is incredibly damaging to your soul to be in a romantic relationship with someone who says these things to you and acts this way towards you 5-6 times every year! There may be people in this world who are strong enough to just shrug these things off and get on with their day but they are incredibly rare and you are not one of them. This is hurting you. This is grinding you down. This is messing with your head. This is making your self worth crumble into dust. This is attacking your very sense of self, your identity, your notion of who you are. I'm not saying you're already in a crumbled state, but you *will* get there if this goes on. Do not keep exposing yourself to this in an intimate setting that should be your safest space.
2. You feel frightened of him
- "when this anger happens I feel very physically frightened. I tend to remain silent, and my thoughts are focused on escape and the risks of escalation."
-"I find each anger and accusation event frightening at the time and destabilising afterwards. "
- "I am sometimes in panic mode."
3. He is completely self-centered: he is using you as an object to soothe himself.
- "he would in effect try to use me as his therapist"
- "He interprets his accusations and my denials as a way of providing reassurance that I am not going to cause trauma like ‘everyone else’ has"
- "I am not convinced he understands how much they distress me."
- "He has told me that wants me to have more empathy for his trauma and accept that he does not mean the accusations personally."
4. He does not respect you, he does not believe you, he does not listen to you.
- "I unsuccessfully tried to persuade him to go to therapy for a very long time, and in the end, it was a friend of mine who convinced him"
- "my chances of talking him into any specific actions are low."
- "I am not convinced he understands how much they distress me"
Furthermore, while the following are not abusive behaviors per se, the following mean that your husband is unlikely to change therefore you are stuck with abuse for as long as you stay with him:
1. He habitually refuses to seek out appropriate levels of care and refuses to take responsibility for his own medical issues
- "He is not engaging in any medical care except for his weekly therapist appointment on Zoom."
-"I unsuccessfully tried to persuade him to go to therapy for a very long time"
2. He is placing undue burdens on you and you feel obligated to fulfill for him (rather than ask that he work towards helping himself)
- " is entirely dependent on me financially."
- "We have sex very infrequently (and this is a mismatch for him)"
3. He has convinced you (or perhaps you have convinced yourself) that enduring this abuse every two months is "very occasional" - a form of minimizing that is characteristic to abusive relationships while not technically in itself an abusive dynamic.
4. You have begun to erase yourself and your needs and your own mental health needs in order to accommodate him, another dynamic that is typical of abusive relationships. You expect yourself (and he expects you to) bend over backwards to accommodate and understand and roll with his cPTSD-style lashing out. What about YOUR sensitivity to raised voices? YOUR tendency to take things literally? He is not expected to accommodate these at all.
posted by MiraK at 8:51 AM on October 29
This is extremely scary and you are being abused. This is not normal or acceptable or ok. I'm sorry to say I think you should leave this relationship. I know that's hard when someone you love is completely dependent on you for financial and logistical support. But he is acting scary and unpredictable, and you've already pointed out a clear pattern of escalation over time. It's only going to escalate further.
Suspicion, false accusations and pressure about sex, and accusations of cheating are all huge red flags for future violence. He's having literal delusions. He is not mentally healthy or safe to be living with.
If he needs to go into a home or institution, so be it. You are not on this earth to be the handmaid of someone who treats you with cold-blooded venom EVER, not even once (much less every few weeks!!). Wishing you all the best... please cut and run!!!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:55 AM on October 29
Suspicion, false accusations and pressure about sex, and accusations of cheating are all huge red flags for future violence. He's having literal delusions. He is not mentally healthy or safe to be living with.
If he needs to go into a home or institution, so be it. You are not on this earth to be the handmaid of someone who treats you with cold-blooded venom EVER, not even once (much less every few weeks!!). Wishing you all the best... please cut and run!!!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:55 AM on October 29
Paranoia is tough. It's really often caused BY something that needs to be corrected, otherwise it will escalate.
Intermittent paranoia like you describe is a very worrisome thing, because that's not just a personality flaw. He's having some kind of event. For your own timeline purposes, you might try to establish when these outward expressions of paranoia began and when they escalated to the rambling accusations of hidden messages (these are delusions, by the way).
Have you checked the house for signs of drug or intoxicant use, including misuse of household chemicals common to 'huffing'?
He is not engaging in any medical care except for his weekly therapist appointment on Zoom.
Therapy is not medical care unless it is with an actual MD psychiatrist, and this is too severe a situation for telemedicine.
To me, this would be Ultimatum Time: get into the care of a psychiatrist, neurologist, and gastroenterologist or I'm out. Plan for an inpatient psychiatric program once cleared to do so by the neuro and gastro. We'll treat the agoraphobia but for the moment you'll have to suck it up.
Just from family experience, I'd be red alert at this point that the untreated and is-it-even-diagnosed? IBS is cancer or liver disease or something else that is poisoning his body, or that he has a vascular or other condition that is affecting his cognition, maybe even early dementia. You don't mention ages but presumably you two were together for some period of time and THEN he stopped working and leaving the house but if that change in personality occurred in his early-mid 20s this whole thing may actually be schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder and his lifestyle has allowed him to hide many symptoms until now.
A major thing I'm saying is that this isn't the expected or typical pathology for CPTSD or trauma from abuse. Those people tend to have very realistic trust issues, not rambling paranoia. They may suffer disassociation, derealization, depersonalization but even in those states they tend to be very tightly in control of their demeanor. They may have had weird ideas about how the world works installed by their nparent(s) but that's generally about the nparent's authoritative reach and not the kind of thing that leaves you vaguely paranoid about the intentions of the plumber.
It's a fine line, trying to let an adult be a person with agency when you can see that their agency is pretty badly compromised, and you can't prove he's compromised until you get him in front of someone who can test and confirm it, and he very much will not want that to happen.
I think you've been quite frog-boiled here, so that you don't realize that what you're describing is bad. Really bad. This is not some kind of mistake you've made that you can fix by being nicer or more supportive or even more accommodating of his untreated suite of health conditions.
Be smart, stay safe, but sit down and plot out your viable options and possible outcomes here. You should talk to a lawyer. You should probably also talk to a doctor, though I'm not sure who you consult to just get training on how to handle this, maybe a psychiatrist.
As others have said, this is no way to live. You aren't safe in this situation, and honestly you're not doing him any favors except keeping a roof over his head while he gets worse.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:57 AM on October 29
Intermittent paranoia like you describe is a very worrisome thing, because that's not just a personality flaw. He's having some kind of event. For your own timeline purposes, you might try to establish when these outward expressions of paranoia began and when they escalated to the rambling accusations of hidden messages (these are delusions, by the way).
Have you checked the house for signs of drug or intoxicant use, including misuse of household chemicals common to 'huffing'?
He is not engaging in any medical care except for his weekly therapist appointment on Zoom.
Therapy is not medical care unless it is with an actual MD psychiatrist, and this is too severe a situation for telemedicine.
To me, this would be Ultimatum Time: get into the care of a psychiatrist, neurologist, and gastroenterologist or I'm out. Plan for an inpatient psychiatric program once cleared to do so by the neuro and gastro. We'll treat the agoraphobia but for the moment you'll have to suck it up.
Just from family experience, I'd be red alert at this point that the untreated and is-it-even-diagnosed? IBS is cancer or liver disease or something else that is poisoning his body, or that he has a vascular or other condition that is affecting his cognition, maybe even early dementia. You don't mention ages but presumably you two were together for some period of time and THEN he stopped working and leaving the house but if that change in personality occurred in his early-mid 20s this whole thing may actually be schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder and his lifestyle has allowed him to hide many symptoms until now.
A major thing I'm saying is that this isn't the expected or typical pathology for CPTSD or trauma from abuse. Those people tend to have very realistic trust issues, not rambling paranoia. They may suffer disassociation, derealization, depersonalization but even in those states they tend to be very tightly in control of their demeanor. They may have had weird ideas about how the world works installed by their nparent(s) but that's generally about the nparent's authoritative reach and not the kind of thing that leaves you vaguely paranoid about the intentions of the plumber.
It's a fine line, trying to let an adult be a person with agency when you can see that their agency is pretty badly compromised, and you can't prove he's compromised until you get him in front of someone who can test and confirm it, and he very much will not want that to happen.
I think you've been quite frog-boiled here, so that you don't realize that what you're describing is bad. Really bad. This is not some kind of mistake you've made that you can fix by being nicer or more supportive or even more accommodating of his untreated suite of health conditions.
Be smart, stay safe, but sit down and plot out your viable options and possible outcomes here. You should talk to a lawyer. You should probably also talk to a doctor, though I'm not sure who you consult to just get training on how to handle this, maybe a psychiatrist.
As others have said, this is no way to live. You aren't safe in this situation, and honestly you're not doing him any favors except keeping a roof over his head while he gets worse.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:57 AM on October 29
I recognise that I have a strong reaction to any anger. Is there anything I could do to reduce the impact it has on me in the meantime?
There are strategies to deal with difficulty and stress, but I would like to advocate for what your body is telling you. When you are experiencing that physical reaction, your body is telling you that you feel under attack because you are. You're right that it's not sustainable.
I unsuccessfully tried to persuade him to go to therapy for a very long time, and in the end, it was a friend of mine who convinced him, so my chances of talking him into any specific actions are low. But if he were asking for advice, what advice would you give?
So...I (we) have DID and PTSD and if cPTSD had been a thing when I was being diagnosed I'm sure I would have been. During my early marriage and the initial kind of breakdown of maladaptive coping before developing real understanding and strategies, there were times that we/some of us either lashed out at my husband or said inappropriate things.
His response was:
1. Stop it (not meanly, just like - hey, penalty/time out)
2. I cannot be in a relationship with you if you treat me this way/don't speak from a reality-based perspective.
Now in our case there was some complexity because there were reality-based things about us that are not typical/normal, so our husband had to be willing to listen and learn about that, which he totally was (and had some prior experience which helped.) So that didn't mean expecting us to "be normal." It mean expecting us to be weird, but treating him with love and respect and as a beloved partner.
We needed those boundaries. Growing up, we never learned about boundaries and we had really awful modelling on how people should treat each other, and we internalized that to a very high degree. We also had a very good therapist who believed 100% that moral treatment and ethics go both ways - like, a traumatized person needs to experience good treatment, but a traumatized person also needs to step into their own power and responsibliity and decide consciously how they want to interact with the world and others and contribute.
So if I were speaking to your husband, I would say, no matter what has happened to him in his life, he has chosen a relationship with you and he has to honour and respect you. This:
He interprets his accusations and my denials as a way of providing reassurance that I am not going to cause trauma like ‘everyone else’ has.
is toxic and uncool. It is NOT YOUR JOB to make up for all the trauma of his life.
This: He has told me that wants me to have more empathy for his trauma and accept that he does not mean the accusations personally.
Is asking you to treat him like a child. You can choose to tolerate things a bit, but ultimately he cannot treat you like a punching bag whether he has had trauma or not.
Ethically, if he truly believes you treat him badly and are manipulative against him, he needs to end the relationship (I'm sorry to say that, but staying with you and treating you awfully is not a tenable response.)
If he believes he experiences periods of paranoia where he does that, he is morally and ethically obligated to pursue treatment for that with everything in him to stop, so that he stops destroying your shared marriage, and you. If things are not improving on the "how he treats you" front, then whatever he is doing is not enough.
For you...I think you need stronger boundaries. When he starts in on you, leave and get a hotel room for a few days. (This is also my real answer to 'what can I do.') Make it clear to him that your return depends on his treating you right. Explanations are not...anything. Like of course as people we want to know and empathize. But it's not his explanations that you need. It's a change in his behaviour.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:00 AM on October 29
There are strategies to deal with difficulty and stress, but I would like to advocate for what your body is telling you. When you are experiencing that physical reaction, your body is telling you that you feel under attack because you are. You're right that it's not sustainable.
I unsuccessfully tried to persuade him to go to therapy for a very long time, and in the end, it was a friend of mine who convinced him, so my chances of talking him into any specific actions are low. But if he were asking for advice, what advice would you give?
So...I (we) have DID and PTSD and if cPTSD had been a thing when I was being diagnosed I'm sure I would have been. During my early marriage and the initial kind of breakdown of maladaptive coping before developing real understanding and strategies, there were times that we/some of us either lashed out at my husband or said inappropriate things.
His response was:
1. Stop it (not meanly, just like - hey, penalty/time out)
2. I cannot be in a relationship with you if you treat me this way/don't speak from a reality-based perspective.
Now in our case there was some complexity because there were reality-based things about us that are not typical/normal, so our husband had to be willing to listen and learn about that, which he totally was (and had some prior experience which helped.) So that didn't mean expecting us to "be normal." It mean expecting us to be weird, but treating him with love and respect and as a beloved partner.
We needed those boundaries. Growing up, we never learned about boundaries and we had really awful modelling on how people should treat each other, and we internalized that to a very high degree. We also had a very good therapist who believed 100% that moral treatment and ethics go both ways - like, a traumatized person needs to experience good treatment, but a traumatized person also needs to step into their own power and responsibliity and decide consciously how they want to interact with the world and others and contribute.
So if I were speaking to your husband, I would say, no matter what has happened to him in his life, he has chosen a relationship with you and he has to honour and respect you. This:
He interprets his accusations and my denials as a way of providing reassurance that I am not going to cause trauma like ‘everyone else’ has.
is toxic and uncool. It is NOT YOUR JOB to make up for all the trauma of his life.
This: He has told me that wants me to have more empathy for his trauma and accept that he does not mean the accusations personally.
Is asking you to treat him like a child. You can choose to tolerate things a bit, but ultimately he cannot treat you like a punching bag whether he has had trauma or not.
Ethically, if he truly believes you treat him badly and are manipulative against him, he needs to end the relationship (I'm sorry to say that, but staying with you and treating you awfully is not a tenable response.)
If he believes he experiences periods of paranoia where he does that, he is morally and ethically obligated to pursue treatment for that with everything in him to stop, so that he stops destroying your shared marriage, and you. If things are not improving on the "how he treats you" front, then whatever he is doing is not enough.
For you...I think you need stronger boundaries. When he starts in on you, leave and get a hotel room for a few days. (This is also my real answer to 'what can I do.') Make it clear to him that your return depends on his treating you right. Explanations are not...anything. Like of course as people we want to know and empathize. But it's not his explanations that you need. It's a change in his behaviour.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:00 AM on October 29
My comments should be taken along with Lyn Never's that this isn't the usual cPTSD actions either. (Unless there's a paranoid alter in there, but it doesn't really pass my sniff test.)
posted by warriorqueen at 9:01 AM on October 29
posted by warriorqueen at 9:01 AM on October 29
Something about the way your life has run so far has taught you this is something it’s fine to put up with. It’s not. I’m sorry that you do love him and do get something out of the love he has for you; the effect of that is real, but it doesn’t outweigh the impact on your well-being and safety. I am glad you have the ability to leave. Please strongly consider it. There are people out there who can love you without subjecting you to abuse.
(I left; I found someone who could. It was thanks to comments like these on here.)
posted by lokta at 9:13 AM on October 29
(I left; I found someone who could. It was thanks to comments like these on here.)
posted by lokta at 9:13 AM on October 29
Also: this sounds very familiar and in the case in my vicinity, it was untreated bipolar disorder (diagnosed, but the guy in question chose not to pursue further treatment in favour of alcohol). Apparently manic delusions can shade into that kind of paranoia. I told his wife to run too, and I'm so very glad she did.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:49 AM on October 29
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:49 AM on October 29
"I [...] am not sure that I really know what he means when he talks about things being ‘subtextual’."
Seconding Lyn Never that this sort of paranoia/delusion is concerning and itself worthy of medical care (not therapy).
When I was younger I worked in a grocery store. We had a customer who was frequently in conflict with the store's staff because he read threatening or insulting "subtexts" into absolutely 100% anodyne, superficial interactions. I believe he even used that word. These were situations like ringing up his groceries or discussing the availability of a product.
It began with complaints to the store's manager ("so-and-so on your staff doesn't like me" or "so-and-so said something [which could never be clearly explained] that I interpreted as an insult") but eventually escalated to him making threats against the staff, and, finally, assaulting staff members in the parking lot because he believed they had insulted him, insulted his family, or made threats (which he described as sexual) against him or members of his family. I almost got punched at one point and had to retreat to a back room with a door that could be locked.
posted by pullayup at 9:57 AM on October 29
Seconding Lyn Never that this sort of paranoia/delusion is concerning and itself worthy of medical care (not therapy).
When I was younger I worked in a grocery store. We had a customer who was frequently in conflict with the store's staff because he read threatening or insulting "subtexts" into absolutely 100% anodyne, superficial interactions. I believe he even used that word. These were situations like ringing up his groceries or discussing the availability of a product.
It began with complaints to the store's manager ("so-and-so on your staff doesn't like me" or "so-and-so said something [which could never be clearly explained] that I interpreted as an insult") but eventually escalated to him making threats against the staff, and, finally, assaulting staff members in the parking lot because he believed they had insulted him, insulted his family, or made threats (which he described as sexual) against him or members of his family. I almost got punched at one point and had to retreat to a back room with a door that could be locked.
posted by pullayup at 9:57 AM on October 29
So after at least 8 years in a stable relationship and anxious-but-stable personality, this is not only the year when he developed dramatically worsening anxiety/ paranoia, but also came out as bisexual and decided that his parents and also his sibling and his friends were narcissistic abusers that he needed to avoid for his own safety?
I'm with Lyn Never, with that level of sudden behavioral change I'd be wondering about some sort of acute issue, like head trauma, cancer, dementia, secretly escalating substance abuse-- or secondarily, about hidden interference/ suggestions coming from some online third party. Do you feel pretty confident you know what he does all day when you're at work?
posted by Bardolph at 9:59 AM on October 29
I'm with Lyn Never, with that level of sudden behavioral change I'd be wondering about some sort of acute issue, like head trauma, cancer, dementia, secretly escalating substance abuse-- or secondarily, about hidden interference/ suggestions coming from some online third party. Do you feel pretty confident you know what he does all day when you're at work?
posted by Bardolph at 9:59 AM on October 29
Although I have never felt at risk of violence, when this anger happens I feel very physically frightened. I tend to remain silent, and my thoughts are focused on escape and the risks of escalation.
I know other people have said so upthread, but again: this is not a part of any healthy relationship, and you are not describing a situation that is improving.
posted by mhoye at 10:10 AM on October 29
I know other people have said so upthread, but again: this is not a part of any healthy relationship, and you are not describing a situation that is improving.
posted by mhoye at 10:10 AM on October 29
You are not the airbag for someone else's mental health collision. You are a person with your own one precious life that needs to be lived to its fullest and whether you stay with this person and keep trying or you absorb the loss and find a different future is up to you.
You have a choice about what to do with your life. Choose carefully.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:13 AM on October 29
You have a choice about what to do with your life. Choose carefully.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:13 AM on October 29
When you finally leave him, you'll think to yourself, "I should have done this much sooner."
posted by AlSweigart at 10:24 AM on October 29
posted by AlSweigart at 10:24 AM on October 29
Yeah, this is an awful relationship and at best, he stomps off and leaves you too, throwing a heap of accusations at you on the way out. Which would be doing you a favor, really.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:53 AM on October 29
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:53 AM on October 29
...but otherwise have a very affectionate and loving relationship.
No, you don't.
He has some real sympathy for my being upset by them [his accusations]...
No, he doesn't.
Although I have never felt at risk of violence, when this anger happens I feel very physically frightened
Your feeling very physically frightened IS feeling at risk of violence. That is what it feels like.
In terms of my own real-life support, I have my own therapist that I have been seeing weekly for the past two years, mainly to help me cope with my husband’s ill health and related issues. I am honest with my therapist about what is happening. One of my close friends also knows what is happening and I have a supportive colleague who knows some things.
What do these people have to say about all of this?
If you were my friend, I would be trying as much as possible to make you understand that you are in an abusive relationship with someone who appears to be slowly losing his grip on reality. That while that may not be his fault, that is NOT remotely any reason to continue to suffer his anger. That at some point, his accusations may turn scary and real enough to him that he will physically turn on you. I would have your number saved in my phone as one that is allowed to ring through my overnight do-not-disturb setting, in case you need my help in the middle of the night.
He is not going to stop this behavior because he has absolutely no reason to do so. He is showing you who he is. Believe him.
posted by Molasses808 at 11:17 AM on October 29
No, you don't.
He has some real sympathy for my being upset by them [his accusations]...
No, he doesn't.
Although I have never felt at risk of violence, when this anger happens I feel very physically frightened
Your feeling very physically frightened IS feeling at risk of violence. That is what it feels like.
In terms of my own real-life support, I have my own therapist that I have been seeing weekly for the past two years, mainly to help me cope with my husband’s ill health and related issues. I am honest with my therapist about what is happening. One of my close friends also knows what is happening and I have a supportive colleague who knows some things.
What do these people have to say about all of this?
If you were my friend, I would be trying as much as possible to make you understand that you are in an abusive relationship with someone who appears to be slowly losing his grip on reality. That while that may not be his fault, that is NOT remotely any reason to continue to suffer his anger. That at some point, his accusations may turn scary and real enough to him that he will physically turn on you. I would have your number saved in my phone as one that is allowed to ring through my overnight do-not-disturb setting, in case you need my help in the middle of the night.
He is not going to stop this behavior because he has absolutely no reason to do so. He is showing you who he is. Believe him.
posted by Molasses808 at 11:17 AM on October 29
Your husband sounds quite ill. He can be helped with treatment, but he'll likely need it in a more intensive form than just once-a-week over Zoom; otherwise, it may take a while yet before he starts benefiting from it, to the extent that you see any changes in him or improvements in your marriage. It's another question altogether how much longer you want to stick around to find out, and I think many others have spoken to that point.
Sometimes in situations like this, a trial separation paired with an ultimatum to him can work wonders, as long as the conditions for meeting the ultimatum are clearly specified and consistently held--and you're able to accept the outcome, whatever it may be (e.g. he gets better, he doesn't, he gets worse). This would imply also that you have a plan for where you go next in your life in the event that he doesn't get better, and that you're able and willing to stick to it.
posted by obliterati at 12:27 PM on October 29
Sometimes in situations like this, a trial separation paired with an ultimatum to him can work wonders, as long as the conditions for meeting the ultimatum are clearly specified and consistently held--and you're able to accept the outcome, whatever it may be (e.g. he gets better, he doesn't, he gets worse). This would imply also that you have a plan for where you go next in your life in the event that he doesn't get better, and that you're able and willing to stick to it.
posted by obliterati at 12:27 PM on October 29
Although I have never felt at risk of violence, when this anger happens I feel very physically frightened
At this point, the Gift Of Fear might be worth reading. It provides some very level headed advice on what to do with your instincts.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:31 PM on October 29
At this point, the Gift Of Fear might be worth reading. It provides some very level headed advice on what to do with your instincts.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:31 PM on October 29
How old is your husband? I've had family members who have behaved like this due to age- and health-related cognitive decline.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 12:50 PM on October 29
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 12:50 PM on October 29
I was going to say this reminded me of a family member who started to have some cognitive decline and would suggest a medical work up.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:55 PM on October 29
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:55 PM on October 29
A major thing I'm saying is that this isn't the expected or typical pathology for CPTSD or trauma from abuse. Those people tend to have very realistic trust issues, not rambling paranoia. They may suffer disassociation, derealization, depersonalization but even in those states they tend to be very tightly in control of their demeanor.
I work with veterans primarily and have a lot of experience in cPTSD as it presents with that population, particularly with men; this is not exactly true for that population, which often presents with rambling 'paranoia' and lack of control over their demeanor that sounds very similar to that described by the OP.
Here are the things that stand out to me:
- I am often very literal and am not sure that I really know what he means when he talks about things being ‘subtextual’.
- After I have denied the accusation, eventually the anger will blow out and dissipate
- I recognise that I have a strong reaction to any anger
What it sounds like is that your husband, like many people with cPTSD, has hypervigilance. You have probably seen this dramatized in movies and television - the person who starts or is afraid at any loud sound or sudden movement. What many people do not realize is that people can have essentially emotional hypervigilance - hypervigilance to signs that indicate certain emotional states or actions in other people. When it is understood, this is most commonly understood, for example, in how survivors of intimate partner violence and other domestic violence tend to be very reactive to anger. When they see even non-violent anger, it can remind them of the anger that often preceded violence, and cause them to react similarly, as though they were about to experience violence - even if the anger was normal, reasonable anger.
People that have certain kinds of reactivity around trust and betrayal are often hypervigilant for tones or facial gestures that to them appear to indicate that the person that they trust is not being truthful, and often when they recognize those signs, fill in the missing data with the worst possible hypotheses for what the untruthfulness could be about. And this is absolutely detrimental to many relationships, because most people do not practice radical honesty in their relationships, and try to engage in 'white lies', or conceal their mild frustrations or annoyances out of kindness or relationship lubrication. So these individuals thus overreact to signals - it's not just completely unwarranted paranoia. Him bringing these accusations to you is thus partially an accusation and partially an invitation for you to explain, "Oh no, I'm not doing this, that's obviously ridiculous, the signals you are seeing mean THIS instead." This is difficult for you to do, however, because you aren't really aware of what signals he's seeing or how he's making the cognitive leaps from your behaviors to these possibilities, and so it develops into an argument. My bet is also that your reaction to his anger also prolongs the conflict, because he sees it as you retreating from him and rejecting him, which he likely has other reactions to as well. He likely also isn't able to clearly explain this, because men aren't really taught to clearly communicate about their emotions or even what they're perceiving about them.
I have had some lengthy conversations with colleagues who oversee couples counseling for veterans and spouses who deal with these kinds of issues, and they are absolutely manageable. Many couples have had great success in improving these issues and gone on to have very happy marriages. However, they require a great deal more communication about the communication than I think is going on in your relationship currently - and it requires a lot of work from the non- challenged spouse as well. In my opinion, if you want to save this relationship, you both need to be in regular couples counseling in addition to your individual counseling - I would suggest Gottman counseling at the very least as well as specialized counseling with someone skilled in mental health issues.
However, this is something that's dependent on you actually wanting to do this work and wanting to stay in the marriage, and I'm not really sure that you do. When you reference divorce, you reference its financial costs, not its emotional costs. This is the kind of situation that reacts best to unconditional love and trust with people who are already determined to be there, not to conditional acceptance, and I hesitate to recommend trying to do this work on a conditional basis. It is perfectly acceptable to decide that you don't want to be here, and if you don't want to be there, I think it's best for your husband as well as yourself that you make your exit quick and clean, rather than becoming another source of trauma - another person who is in his life while secretly wishing not to be.
posted by corb at 2:36 PM on October 29
I work with veterans primarily and have a lot of experience in cPTSD as it presents with that population, particularly with men; this is not exactly true for that population, which often presents with rambling 'paranoia' and lack of control over their demeanor that sounds very similar to that described by the OP.
Here are the things that stand out to me:
- I am often very literal and am not sure that I really know what he means when he talks about things being ‘subtextual’.
- After I have denied the accusation, eventually the anger will blow out and dissipate
- I recognise that I have a strong reaction to any anger
What it sounds like is that your husband, like many people with cPTSD, has hypervigilance. You have probably seen this dramatized in movies and television - the person who starts or is afraid at any loud sound or sudden movement. What many people do not realize is that people can have essentially emotional hypervigilance - hypervigilance to signs that indicate certain emotional states or actions in other people. When it is understood, this is most commonly understood, for example, in how survivors of intimate partner violence and other domestic violence tend to be very reactive to anger. When they see even non-violent anger, it can remind them of the anger that often preceded violence, and cause them to react similarly, as though they were about to experience violence - even if the anger was normal, reasonable anger.
People that have certain kinds of reactivity around trust and betrayal are often hypervigilant for tones or facial gestures that to them appear to indicate that the person that they trust is not being truthful, and often when they recognize those signs, fill in the missing data with the worst possible hypotheses for what the untruthfulness could be about. And this is absolutely detrimental to many relationships, because most people do not practice radical honesty in their relationships, and try to engage in 'white lies', or conceal their mild frustrations or annoyances out of kindness or relationship lubrication. So these individuals thus overreact to signals - it's not just completely unwarranted paranoia. Him bringing these accusations to you is thus partially an accusation and partially an invitation for you to explain, "Oh no, I'm not doing this, that's obviously ridiculous, the signals you are seeing mean THIS instead." This is difficult for you to do, however, because you aren't really aware of what signals he's seeing or how he's making the cognitive leaps from your behaviors to these possibilities, and so it develops into an argument. My bet is also that your reaction to his anger also prolongs the conflict, because he sees it as you retreating from him and rejecting him, which he likely has other reactions to as well. He likely also isn't able to clearly explain this, because men aren't really taught to clearly communicate about their emotions or even what they're perceiving about them.
I have had some lengthy conversations with colleagues who oversee couples counseling for veterans and spouses who deal with these kinds of issues, and they are absolutely manageable. Many couples have had great success in improving these issues and gone on to have very happy marriages. However, they require a great deal more communication about the communication than I think is going on in your relationship currently - and it requires a lot of work from the non- challenged spouse as well. In my opinion, if you want to save this relationship, you both need to be in regular couples counseling in addition to your individual counseling - I would suggest Gottman counseling at the very least as well as specialized counseling with someone skilled in mental health issues.
However, this is something that's dependent on you actually wanting to do this work and wanting to stay in the marriage, and I'm not really sure that you do. When you reference divorce, you reference its financial costs, not its emotional costs. This is the kind of situation that reacts best to unconditional love and trust with people who are already determined to be there, not to conditional acceptance, and I hesitate to recommend trying to do this work on a conditional basis. It is perfectly acceptable to decide that you don't want to be here, and if you don't want to be there, I think it's best for your husband as well as yourself that you make your exit quick and clean, rather than becoming another source of trauma - another person who is in his life while secretly wishing not to be.
posted by corb at 2:36 PM on October 29
I can tell you've been white-knuckling this for as long as it's been going on, so as far as You go, maybe it might be time for a change there.
You don't mention a psychiatrist, and it sounds like (I'm not a doctor) he should be on meds. In the shadow of your battle over therapy, maybe the mere idea is a no-go, but it offers a concrete way he can show he's trying to get better. If your therapist hasn't suggested anything like this, that's why I'm suggesting finding a new one.
posted by rhizome at 4:03 PM on October 29
You don't mention a psychiatrist, and it sounds like (I'm not a doctor) he should be on meds. In the shadow of your battle over therapy, maybe the mere idea is a no-go, but it offers a concrete way he can show he's trying to get better. If your therapist hasn't suggested anything like this, that's why I'm suggesting finding a new one.
posted by rhizome at 4:03 PM on October 29
if you want to save this relationship, you both need to be in regular couples counseling in addition to your individual counseling
Veteran or not, an ethical couples counselor will not provide therapy where one partner puts the other in fear for their physical safety.
However, this is something that's dependent on you actually wanting to do this work and wanting to stay in the marriage, and I'm not really sure that you do. ...I think it's best for your husband as well as yourself that you make your exit quick and clean, rather than becoming another source of trauma - another person who is in his life while secretly wishing not to be.
I think this is a really unfair, and indeed dangerous, way to frame the situation. OP is trapped in a house with a partner who doesn't go out, doesn't work, doesn't get proper medical care for his obvious problems, has cut off his entire family and prior social network, and has now been repeatedly yelling at her about alleged affairs to the point of putting her in fear. "Sounds like you don't love him/aren't committed enough to try hard at this marriage, so I guess you better leave now, before you traumatize him worse than he already is" is just not something you should be saying to someone in an abusive relationship, even if some of the underlying principles (e.g., that he might be treatable) might be true.
posted by praemunire at 4:09 PM on October 29
Veteran or not, an ethical couples counselor will not provide therapy where one partner puts the other in fear for their physical safety.
However, this is something that's dependent on you actually wanting to do this work and wanting to stay in the marriage, and I'm not really sure that you do. ...I think it's best for your husband as well as yourself that you make your exit quick and clean, rather than becoming another source of trauma - another person who is in his life while secretly wishing not to be.
I think this is a really unfair, and indeed dangerous, way to frame the situation. OP is trapped in a house with a partner who doesn't go out, doesn't work, doesn't get proper medical care for his obvious problems, has cut off his entire family and prior social network, and has now been repeatedly yelling at her about alleged affairs to the point of putting her in fear. "Sounds like you don't love him/aren't committed enough to try hard at this marriage, so I guess you better leave now, before you traumatize him worse than he already is" is just not something you should be saying to someone in an abusive relationship, even if some of the underlying principles (e.g., that he might be treatable) might be true.
posted by praemunire at 4:09 PM on October 29
Understanding why someone is abusive doesn't mean they are not abusive. I understand you have a lot of love and compassion for your husband. I encourage you to think about why it looks like to live on your own, not in this marriage. What you are dealing with isn't acceptable.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:25 PM on October 29
posted by bluedaisy at 4:25 PM on October 29
This is the kind of situation that reacts best to unconditional love and trust with people who are already determined to be there, not to conditional acceptance, and I hesitate to recommend trying to do this work on a conditional basis.
Oh, absolutely not. Nope. Love between partners should absolutely be conditional, and OP's situation is a perfect (albeit extreme) example of why. They have already done an extraordinary – emphasis on 'extra' – amount of work in this relationship, with someone who is not interested in or unable to do the work in turn, or both. The love OP has shown by doing that work over these years should make it clear that 'love' is not the issue. Chastising OP with the 'you're just not trying hard enough/you don't love him enough' bs is...well, I'll echo praemunire and say 'unfair' since that's much more kind than the words I'm inclined to use instead.
posted by Molasses808 at 4:35 PM on October 29
Oh, absolutely not. Nope. Love between partners should absolutely be conditional, and OP's situation is a perfect (albeit extreme) example of why. They have already done an extraordinary – emphasis on 'extra' – amount of work in this relationship, with someone who is not interested in or unable to do the work in turn, or both. The love OP has shown by doing that work over these years should make it clear that 'love' is not the issue. Chastising OP with the 'you're just not trying hard enough/you don't love him enough' bs is...well, I'll echo praemunire and say 'unfair' since that's much more kind than the words I'm inclined to use instead.
posted by Molasses808 at 4:35 PM on October 29
an ethical couples counselor will not provide therapy where one partner puts the other in fear for their physical safety
I think it's important to be clear here - OP has said that they haven't felt there was any risk of violence, but have felt physically frightened, and that they have a strong reaction to any anger, not just anger from their husband, but their husband doesn't understand the strength of their distress. To me, as a survivor of intimate partner violence, this sounds very much like some of my own previous relationships, where my reaction did not match the intentions of my partners, who didn't understand why I reacted so strongly. OP asked what advice we would give if her husband were asking for advice, so presumably, she is hoping to also come up with solutions that might both help her and appeal to him.
For me, couples counseling was incredibly important to have a neutral party help explain why, for example, as a victim of physical abuse and stalking, I had reactive fears whenever any subsequent partner so much as asked what time I was leaving work or would be coming home, or surprised me with flowers. It might also be helpful to have a couples counselor explain why - whatever the reason - OP reacts with the amount of distress she does to these incidents. I don't think we have enough information here to determine whether or not the partner here is abusive, but I think that either way, having a couples counselor present to mediate these discussions would likely radically improve OP's life, while potentially appealing to OP's husband, who may feel frustrated that he isn't able to explain the 'subtextual' issues well enough.
Chastising OP with the 'you're just not trying hard enough/you don't love him enough' bs
One of the truly hard things about mental health issues is that they are often deeply, deeply unfair, and thus I am not attempting to provide any moral judgments on whether OP should or shouldn't do this work. OP asked about the likelihood of success in resolving this issue, and I think it's important to note that regardless of morality, in my experience, this isn't an issue that gets resolved with the work of only one party. Similarly, that individuals who have complex trauma around trust and betrayal tend to respond more positively to unconditional love and acceptance, because it triggers less of their hypervigilance switches and thus allows them to address the root of the problem more clearly with less cycling. My hope was to let OP know that in this case, if they don't think they can provide that kind of unconditional acceptance, their sacrifice of their own mental well being may not necessarily be helpful and could even be counterproductive. Whether it is OP's role or decision to do this work is something only OP can answer - but they should do so fully informed.
posted by corb at 6:12 PM on October 29
I think it's important to be clear here - OP has said that they haven't felt there was any risk of violence, but have felt physically frightened, and that they have a strong reaction to any anger, not just anger from their husband, but their husband doesn't understand the strength of their distress. To me, as a survivor of intimate partner violence, this sounds very much like some of my own previous relationships, where my reaction did not match the intentions of my partners, who didn't understand why I reacted so strongly. OP asked what advice we would give if her husband were asking for advice, so presumably, she is hoping to also come up with solutions that might both help her and appeal to him.
For me, couples counseling was incredibly important to have a neutral party help explain why, for example, as a victim of physical abuse and stalking, I had reactive fears whenever any subsequent partner so much as asked what time I was leaving work or would be coming home, or surprised me with flowers. It might also be helpful to have a couples counselor explain why - whatever the reason - OP reacts with the amount of distress she does to these incidents. I don't think we have enough information here to determine whether or not the partner here is abusive, but I think that either way, having a couples counselor present to mediate these discussions would likely radically improve OP's life, while potentially appealing to OP's husband, who may feel frustrated that he isn't able to explain the 'subtextual' issues well enough.
Chastising OP with the 'you're just not trying hard enough/you don't love him enough' bs
One of the truly hard things about mental health issues is that they are often deeply, deeply unfair, and thus I am not attempting to provide any moral judgments on whether OP should or shouldn't do this work. OP asked about the likelihood of success in resolving this issue, and I think it's important to note that regardless of morality, in my experience, this isn't an issue that gets resolved with the work of only one party. Similarly, that individuals who have complex trauma around trust and betrayal tend to respond more positively to unconditional love and acceptance, because it triggers less of their hypervigilance switches and thus allows them to address the root of the problem more clearly with less cycling. My hope was to let OP know that in this case, if they don't think they can provide that kind of unconditional acceptance, their sacrifice of their own mental well being may not necessarily be helpful and could even be counterproductive. Whether it is OP's role or decision to do this work is something only OP can answer - but they should do so fully informed.
posted by corb at 6:12 PM on October 29
Do not go to couples counseling with someone who is routinely accusing you of things that did not happen.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:29 PM on October 29
posted by Lyn Never at 9:29 PM on October 29
Assuming he is in the grips of an untreated mental illness, such that he can’t control his actions and assuming that he loves you, protecting yourself from him would ultimately be what he would want even if he is now incapable of effectuating it. Put your safety first. You don’t have to decide everything all at once, just think of what you’d need to feel 100% safe and do that.
posted by knobknosher at 10:51 PM on October 29
posted by knobknosher at 10:51 PM on October 29
Also, fuck no do not go to couples’ counseling. I have an enormous amount of sympathy for people with paranoia but they are not good candidates for anything like couples or family counseling until their symptoms are 100% under control (which typically takes psychiatry, intensive outpatient/partial hospitalization, or in some cases hospitalization). None of the disorders that cause serious paranoia are trivial and you shouldn’t try to treat them yourself by putting yourself in the line of fire.
posted by knobknosher at 10:54 PM on October 29
posted by knobknosher at 10:54 PM on October 29
Similarly, that individuals who have complex trauma around trust and betrayal tend to respond more positively to unconditional love and acceptance, because it triggers less of their hypervigilance switches and thus allows them to address the root of the problem more clearly with less cycling.
I have to disagree with this. There is a big difference between a predictable, stable, caring environment and a consistent partner who doesn’t yell, shame, etc., and “unconditional love” between adults. The role of a partner is not to gradually erase their needs for basic stuff like not being accused of infidelity so as not to trigger someone else. That is a horrible way to live but also an inappropriate way to handle triggers. It’s like anxiety - avoidance gives temporary relief but sets off other negative emotions that continue the cycle. You can’t manage hyper vigilance long term by asking people around you to behave perfectly or never leave. And it’s not necessary. Because you have to learn you a) can impact ppl around you and b) be ok even if they leave.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:13 AM on October 30
I have to disagree with this. There is a big difference between a predictable, stable, caring environment and a consistent partner who doesn’t yell, shame, etc., and “unconditional love” between adults. The role of a partner is not to gradually erase their needs for basic stuff like not being accused of infidelity so as not to trigger someone else. That is a horrible way to live but also an inappropriate way to handle triggers. It’s like anxiety - avoidance gives temporary relief but sets off other negative emotions that continue the cycle. You can’t manage hyper vigilance long term by asking people around you to behave perfectly or never leave. And it’s not necessary. Because you have to learn you a) can impact ppl around you and b) be ok even if they leave.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:13 AM on October 30
He has told me that wants me to have more empathy for his trauma
Having all the empathy in the world doesn't mean you need to put up with this shit.
A history of trauma is a partial explanation for why somebody might feel insecure or off-kilter or have a tendency toward jealousy or an outsized desire for control. What it is not and never can be is a justification for directing hostility at loved ones. That is a choice he makes, for making which the responsibility is entirely his, and that responsibility has nothing to do with how much empathy you might or might not have and/or express.
and accept that he does not mean the accusations personally
If he doesn't want people he's accusing of eighteen different kinds of shit to take those accusations personally, it's on him not to make them.
If he understands these things, and is willing to learn to accept responsibility for his own actions, then your life might improve. If he's not - if he takes the line that he can't do anything about it because insufficient therapy, or insufficient empathy, or whateverthefuck bulllshit excuse - it won't.
posted by flabdablet at 4:41 AM on October 30
Having all the empathy in the world doesn't mean you need to put up with this shit.
A history of trauma is a partial explanation for why somebody might feel insecure or off-kilter or have a tendency toward jealousy or an outsized desire for control. What it is not and never can be is a justification for directing hostility at loved ones. That is a choice he makes, for making which the responsibility is entirely his, and that responsibility has nothing to do with how much empathy you might or might not have and/or express.
and accept that he does not mean the accusations personally
If he doesn't want people he's accusing of eighteen different kinds of shit to take those accusations personally, it's on him not to make them.
If he understands these things, and is willing to learn to accept responsibility for his own actions, then your life might improve. If he's not - if he takes the line that he can't do anything about it because insufficient therapy, or insufficient empathy, or whateverthefuck bulllshit excuse - it won't.
posted by flabdablet at 4:41 AM on October 30
You do not have to divorce him and leave permanently to take a physical and emotional break from the relationship.
I hear you saying "If things get bad enough eventually, I will leave."
Things are already quite bad.
If a friend came to you and told you this story, I think your reaction would be one of horror. You have been acclimated to a terrible situation over time.
It's time for you to make a request of him. He needs help and treatment. You should not be subject to this while he is unwell and untreated. My recommendation for dealing with similar situations is that you prepare to leave for a time, then discuss with him what you need from the relationship, and then depart for whatever period is necessary for him to make change.
You could end up injured or dead quite easily here. But also, almost as bad, is that you could end up miserable.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 6:27 AM on October 30
I hear you saying "If things get bad enough eventually, I will leave."
Things are already quite bad.
If a friend came to you and told you this story, I think your reaction would be one of horror. You have been acclimated to a terrible situation over time.
It's time for you to make a request of him. He needs help and treatment. You should not be subject to this while he is unwell and untreated. My recommendation for dealing with similar situations is that you prepare to leave for a time, then discuss with him what you need from the relationship, and then depart for whatever period is necessary for him to make change.
You could end up injured or dead quite easily here. But also, almost as bad, is that you could end up miserable.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 6:27 AM on October 30
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I am not convinced, however, that it makes sense for you to do this as his spouse.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:42 AM on October 29