Fear of The Other Woman
June 7, 2020 9:24 AM Subscribe
I have a crippling fear of being abandoned by my partner, in particular being abandoned for a younger woman. I feel like it makes it hard for me to fully commit to my partner, fearful about the future, and extremely suspicious of men in general.
I just turned 30, but I've honestly had a huge fear of aging, abandonment and being "past my prime" since I was all of 18. I'm sure it didn't help that in my early 20s I dated a series of not-so-great men who were 10-15 years my senior. I'm currently dating a great guy who is just a couple years older than me. He reassures me a lot that he will always love me as I get older. I just don't believe him.
I have a pretty strong belief that men basically all want to cheat on their wives and long-term partners, and that if societal expectations weren't in the way they'd all really prefer women 18-22 if not literal teenagers. The thing is, I'm not sure there's much evidence to even counteract this belief. OKCupid did a study where men of all ages still preferred a 21-year-old woman. "Barely legal" and "teen" are the most popular porn categories. Many rich and powerful men sleep with teenagers because they can get away with it. I feel like I can believe that my partner wouldn't cheat on me, but I can't believe that he doesn't want to. I still worry that he'd rather be fucking a 18-year-old porn star.
It just feels like heterosexual relationships are a losing game for women, where your value in the eyes of your partner depreciates with every passing year, and he can always just get up and leave you for somebody else, at an age where it's hard for you to find anyone on a dating market biased against older women. Unfortunately, I am still heterosexual. I actually even tried dating women when I was younger but never felt the spark with any of them, and it wasn't fair to them.
Intellectually, I'm aware this shouldn't matter to me as much as it does. I have a great career and I wouldn't have any problems supporting myself entirely. I don't want children. I know that unmarried women are often happier than married ones. But I can't stop imagining my partner leaving me for a 22-year-old in 10 years, and it just kills my self-esteem.
This isn't an aging question. I'm a skincare nerd and look young for my age, but I'm also aware that anti-aging is a losing game. When I'm 45 I'm not going to still pass for 25. I'd rather learn to accept that and not have it destroy me, and not feel like my womanhood is crumbling with the passing of time.
I've brought this up with more than one therapist. One said that abandonment fears are hard-wired in woman for evolutionary reasons. This did not make me feel any better. Another accused me of cherry-picking data to support my premise that men prefer younger. I'm not convinced that this is true.
Please be kind as this is a really embarrassing question for me to type.
I just turned 30, but I've honestly had a huge fear of aging, abandonment and being "past my prime" since I was all of 18. I'm sure it didn't help that in my early 20s I dated a series of not-so-great men who were 10-15 years my senior. I'm currently dating a great guy who is just a couple years older than me. He reassures me a lot that he will always love me as I get older. I just don't believe him.
I have a pretty strong belief that men basically all want to cheat on their wives and long-term partners, and that if societal expectations weren't in the way they'd all really prefer women 18-22 if not literal teenagers. The thing is, I'm not sure there's much evidence to even counteract this belief. OKCupid did a study where men of all ages still preferred a 21-year-old woman. "Barely legal" and "teen" are the most popular porn categories. Many rich and powerful men sleep with teenagers because they can get away with it. I feel like I can believe that my partner wouldn't cheat on me, but I can't believe that he doesn't want to. I still worry that he'd rather be fucking a 18-year-old porn star.
It just feels like heterosexual relationships are a losing game for women, where your value in the eyes of your partner depreciates with every passing year, and he can always just get up and leave you for somebody else, at an age where it's hard for you to find anyone on a dating market biased against older women. Unfortunately, I am still heterosexual. I actually even tried dating women when I was younger but never felt the spark with any of them, and it wasn't fair to them.
Intellectually, I'm aware this shouldn't matter to me as much as it does. I have a great career and I wouldn't have any problems supporting myself entirely. I don't want children. I know that unmarried women are often happier than married ones. But I can't stop imagining my partner leaving me for a 22-year-old in 10 years, and it just kills my self-esteem.
This isn't an aging question. I'm a skincare nerd and look young for my age, but I'm also aware that anti-aging is a losing game. When I'm 45 I'm not going to still pass for 25. I'd rather learn to accept that and not have it destroy me, and not feel like my womanhood is crumbling with the passing of time.
I've brought this up with more than one therapist. One said that abandonment fears are hard-wired in woman for evolutionary reasons. This did not make me feel any better. Another accused me of cherry-picking data to support my premise that men prefer younger. I'm not convinced that this is true.
Please be kind as this is a really embarrassing question for me to type.
Well research* actually shows that men do seem to prefer young women, but the area about infidelity being caused by this preference is grayer or at least I am having trouble finding studies regarding that specific scenario. So the second therapist is, frankly, kinda full of it.
*I realize this article is old, but it is widely cited and similar studies I found across cultures support the same findings.
posted by Young Kullervo at 9:37 AM on June 7, 2020
*I realize this article is old, but it is widely cited and similar studies I found across cultures support the same findings.
posted by Young Kullervo at 9:37 AM on June 7, 2020
You were right in your assessment of your therapists' responses, IMO. They strike me as wrongheaded (evopsych is terrible) or based on denial. Cherry-picking, feh.
I think a better way to approach this is to acknowledge at a deep level that commitment in a romantic relationship is a risk, kind of like a bet in a way. You truly don't know if YOU will feel the same way about your partner in one, five, ten years' time. And the same goes for him.
Het relationships can be looks-based and ageist in general, but really, NO human relationship is permanent, ESPECIALLY romantic relationships. However, if having kids is involved, the kitty (poker analogy there) gets bigger.
More deeply: we're all mortal, and change is the only constant. I have found the study of Buddhism very helpful in accepting this, and some people really have been helped by reading the Stoics too.
How much risk you are willing to accept in going forward with a romantic relationship is something you will have to assess for yourself... and reassess frequently as life goes on.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 9:42 AM on June 7, 2020 [12 favorites]
I think a better way to approach this is to acknowledge at a deep level that commitment in a romantic relationship is a risk, kind of like a bet in a way. You truly don't know if YOU will feel the same way about your partner in one, five, ten years' time. And the same goes for him.
Het relationships can be looks-based and ageist in general, but really, NO human relationship is permanent, ESPECIALLY romantic relationships. However, if having kids is involved, the kitty (poker analogy there) gets bigger.
More deeply: we're all mortal, and change is the only constant. I have found the study of Buddhism very helpful in accepting this, and some people really have been helped by reading the Stoics too.
How much risk you are willing to accept in going forward with a romantic relationship is something you will have to assess for yourself... and reassess frequently as life goes on.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 9:42 AM on June 7, 2020 [12 favorites]
Is this narrative influenced by personal experience? Maybe someone in your family was “abandoned” in this way?
I ask because I have some beliefs which feel really big and general, even though they’re really about my personal experience.
It has helped for me to meet people/families that directly challenge these beliefs, and internalize that their experience is as real as mine.
Is there a way for you to spend time with happily married older couples who have stayed together? Because sure, sometimes men really do leave marriages for younger women. But also, some men don’t. I wonder if spending more time with men who don’t will help you: 1) identify traits/patterns which show long-term loyalty, which you can look for in your own dating, and 2) reinforce for yourself that it’s not all marriages that end like this.
posted by tinymegalo at 9:43 AM on June 7, 2020 [17 favorites]
I ask because I have some beliefs which feel really big and general, even though they’re really about my personal experience.
It has helped for me to meet people/families that directly challenge these beliefs, and internalize that their experience is as real as mine.
Is there a way for you to spend time with happily married older couples who have stayed together? Because sure, sometimes men really do leave marriages for younger women. But also, some men don’t. I wonder if spending more time with men who don’t will help you: 1) identify traits/patterns which show long-term loyalty, which you can look for in your own dating, and 2) reinforce for yourself that it’s not all marriages that end like this.
posted by tinymegalo at 9:43 AM on June 7, 2020 [17 favorites]
TBH the way I have dealt with my own anxiety issues with men and relationships in general (and I am also a heterosexual woman in her mid 30s, but if I could change my sexuality I would) is that I have accepted that, for the most part, all relationships will end, either due to growing apart or death. This allows me to think in the present moment rather than getting hung up on a future that I can't predict or control. I trust that all scenarios regarding my interactions with people are possible, but that doesn't mean they aren't worth pursuing in the moment. By letting go of that need to control I have been able to relax and enjoy people and really let my true feelings show.
It may be a bit nihilist, IDK, but accepting that a form of heartbreak is more than likely in your future the moment you become vulnerable with people is really the key to not letting it destroy you. Prepare for it so that when it does occur (if a dude does leave you) you won't be left with nothing, emotionally and otherwise.
I guess that is like emotional prepping, like you know a typhoon is possible so you make sure everything is in order so that when it does come you'll be prepared and your house won't be destroyed (or at the very least it can be rebuilt without much trouble). But you don't have to sit and worry about whether the typhoon is coming or not in the meantime.
posted by Young Kullervo at 9:44 AM on June 7, 2020 [16 favorites]
It may be a bit nihilist, IDK, but accepting that a form of heartbreak is more than likely in your future the moment you become vulnerable with people is really the key to not letting it destroy you. Prepare for it so that when it does occur (if a dude does leave you) you won't be left with nothing, emotionally and otherwise.
I guess that is like emotional prepping, like you know a typhoon is possible so you make sure everything is in order so that when it does come you'll be prepared and your house won't be destroyed (or at the very least it can be rebuilt without much trouble). But you don't have to sit and worry about whether the typhoon is coming or not in the meantime.
posted by Young Kullervo at 9:44 AM on June 7, 2020 [16 favorites]
I'm decades older than you and while I mourn my youthful appearance like any other woman, I am less worried about a man leaving or cheating this way than I was as a young woman myself. Here is why. Men are complicated people like we women are. They can find a woman at the peak of physical beauty arousing and more physically attractive than a woman their own age, yes, but only a very certain kind of man is going to even want to translate that momentary jolt into action. For men who have deep emotional investments in their partners, the idea of losing a relationship seems just as terrifying, or for some reason, sometimes, even more terrifying than it does to a lot of women, maybe because they tend not to have a lot of close intimate friendships outside their wives. Many men are quite shy and take a while to develop the kind of trust and intimacy that allows them to build a real sense of romance with a partner. Anyway, a lot of middle aged men also would feel kind of icky trying to go after a young woman; when they think of themselves as honorable people, it's not like they're wishing to leave and just forcing themselves to stay, it's because much more goes into their sense of romance than rating a woman's 1 to 10 scale attractiveness. Men, like women, need love and connection; different women push different psychological buttons in them that make them compelled and attached; and men are madly, passionately in love with physically imperfect women of all ages. One way to approach your insecurity (other than better therapists!) is to remind yourself that men are vulnerable to loss of love and connection, too.
posted by nantucket at 10:32 AM on June 7, 2020 [99 favorites]
posted by nantucket at 10:32 AM on June 7, 2020 [99 favorites]
This isn't a solution, but a viewpoint to consider. My spouse, el_lupino, who is a college professor, says, "There's nothing that makes 19-year-olds less appealing than being around 19-year-olds all the time."
posted by jocelmeow at 10:51 AM on June 7, 2020 [44 favorites]
posted by jocelmeow at 10:51 AM on June 7, 2020 [44 favorites]
This isn't going to be an answer directed exactly at your question, but I wanted to point out a realization that I had somewhere along the road from being constantly worried about being cheated on to now, where honestly, it'd hurt, and I'd much rather they just tell me and leave if they want someone else, but I'd have no problem saying "hey, that's fine, you want to be with someone else, go ahead" and end the relationship with relatively little drama.
For me, now, it's the broken trust that would be a problem for me. But y'know... it always was a lack of trust in my partner that made me worry, but the lack of trust was a problem in ME, not because my partners necessarily deserved the lack of trust. But the thing I wanted to point out to keep in mind? Constant lack of trust can be REALLY damaging to a relationship, so it would be very beneficial for you to continue to seek someone who can really help you with this.
posted by stormyteal at 10:52 AM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
For me, now, it's the broken trust that would be a problem for me. But y'know... it always was a lack of trust in my partner that made me worry, but the lack of trust was a problem in ME, not because my partners necessarily deserved the lack of trust. But the thing I wanted to point out to keep in mind? Constant lack of trust can be REALLY damaging to a relationship, so it would be very beneficial for you to continue to seek someone who can really help you with this.
posted by stormyteal at 10:52 AM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
This really should be worked through with a good therapist, so I'm going to suggest a couple of things to present to them from the jump - ideally in your second contact with them before meeting or at the first intake meeting (the first contact is "are you taking new patients/do you accept insurance or offer cash rates").
- I experience an intense amount of anxiety around aging and the idea that a partner couldn't possibly stay with me as I age.
- I am not looking for someone to dissuade me of my silly idea that our entire society is steeped in ageism, as previous therapists have decided to take on as a therapeutic methodology.
- I suffer from anxiety, intrusive thoughts, and self-doubt to the point of diminishing my general experience of life and ability to strongly connect and fully be myself in a relationship, that is what I am looking to work on.
- If you cannot even agree with the basic premise that women and humans suffer from a toxic culture around appearance, age, and attraction which is not going to go away any time soon, we should probably not waste each others' time.
If at ALL possible, I recommend looking for therapists who extremely firmly self-identify as some kind of queer-affirming (there's no one term I see getting used more than others, so watch for anything in that ballpark), trauma-informed, and ideally anti-racist (again, I'm not sure there's a single term being used to indicate additional training/emphasis in race-aware/whiteness-aware/intersectional methodology), because there's a much higher likelihood that someone who's chosen training in marginalized populations will have had to do work about physical presentation and discrimination and, probably, patriarchal cis-whiteness. I don't know that it's enough for a white therapist to identify as feminist if they don't also align with race and queer concerns, because white feminism still owes a lot to the protection of patriarchy.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:11 AM on June 7, 2020 [13 favorites]
- I experience an intense amount of anxiety around aging and the idea that a partner couldn't possibly stay with me as I age.
- I am not looking for someone to dissuade me of my silly idea that our entire society is steeped in ageism, as previous therapists have decided to take on as a therapeutic methodology.
- I suffer from anxiety, intrusive thoughts, and self-doubt to the point of diminishing my general experience of life and ability to strongly connect and fully be myself in a relationship, that is what I am looking to work on.
- If you cannot even agree with the basic premise that women and humans suffer from a toxic culture around appearance, age, and attraction which is not going to go away any time soon, we should probably not waste each others' time.
If at ALL possible, I recommend looking for therapists who extremely firmly self-identify as some kind of queer-affirming (there's no one term I see getting used more than others, so watch for anything in that ballpark), trauma-informed, and ideally anti-racist (again, I'm not sure there's a single term being used to indicate additional training/emphasis in race-aware/whiteness-aware/intersectional methodology), because there's a much higher likelihood that someone who's chosen training in marginalized populations will have had to do work about physical presentation and discrimination and, probably, patriarchal cis-whiteness. I don't know that it's enough for a white therapist to identify as feminist if they don't also align with race and queer concerns, because white feminism still owes a lot to the protection of patriarchy.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:11 AM on June 7, 2020 [13 favorites]
I think you might never get away from this mindset if you're trying to convince yourself by using facts alone. Because the problem is not whether it's true; the problem is that you feel it's true. It doesn't matter whether it's true or not, if you always feel this way regardless. Rather than focusing on the content of these thought patterns, focus on the fact that the patterns are happening, you don't like the effect of these recurrent and obsessive thoughts, and you'd like to stop your brain from getting into this rut over and over again, so you can just not have to think about it all the time.
That might be a more fruitful approach with a therapist than one that really focuses on the content of these worries.
posted by ocherdraco at 11:52 AM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
That might be a more fruitful approach with a therapist than one that really focuses on the content of these worries.
posted by ocherdraco at 11:52 AM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
Hetero guy in long term cohabitation with wonderful woman. Of course I see attractive women, even mention them to my SO sometimes, but have no desire to cheat with them. Some men mature well beyond mere lust and selfishness. If your fella isn't showing any red flags, take a few deep breaths, and start looking for a good therapist like so many have said above.
posted by vrakatar at 12:08 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by vrakatar at 12:08 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
If anecdata is of any use, I actually talked about this with my dad one time when I was a teenager. I think it was prompted by something on TV. He told me that frankly he couldn't understand why some men his age were attracted to women young enough to be their daughters, and that the very notion creeped him out. He and my mom are still together, she in her 60s and he in his 70s, and he frequently says how lucky he was to wind up with her.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:14 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:14 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
I second ocherdraco's advice. To pull a few bits out of your post, with my emphasis in italics:
It's certainly possible to point out that studies showing that hetero men prefer younger women are usually based on showing and rating photographs, i.e. they're done purely on the basis of visual appeal, without considering personality or emotional connection. It's also possible to point out that the behavior of rich, powerful men is not necessarily typical. I'm a 52-year-old cis hetero man, and I'm still deeply in love with my 51-year-old wife (married 25 years next month, together for nearly 30). However, such anecdotes and qualifications don't necessarily help against a powerfully held idea, which is why CBT might be a better direction.
Without knowing you, and based solely on your question, it seems like this belief is entangled with a strong fear of your own aging. You write, "This isn't an aging question," but then you add immediately, "When I'm 45 I'm not going to still pass for 25. I'd rather learn to accept that and not have it destroy me." That's a powerful word to use, and I suspect that CBT might help with that, too, though that's only a lay opinion. I myself occasionally regret the loss of my youth and resilience, but it's not something that keeps me up at night. Speaking only from personal experience, too, I find 50-something women much more attractive now than I did when I was younger, and like jocelmeow's spouse and showbiz_liz's father, I find the thought of having a relationship with someone the age of my students to be ridiculous and creepy.
posted by brianogilvie at 12:38 PM on June 7, 2020 [18 favorites]
I have a crippling fear.... [I]it makes it hard for me to fully commit to my partner, fearful about the future, and extremely suspicious of men in general.... I've honestly had a huge fear of aging, abandonment and being "past my prime" since I was all of 18.... I have a pretty strong belief that men basically all want to cheat.... I can't stop imagining my partner leaving me for a 22-year-old in 10 years, and it just kills my self-esteem.... I'd rather learn to accept that and not have it destroy me, and not feel like my womanhood is crumbling with the passing of time.If you have recurrent thoughts that distress you and make it difficult to live your life, and considering the evidence doesn't help, then you might want to seek out a therapist who specializes in CBT and learn how to break out of those recurring thoughts.
It's certainly possible to point out that studies showing that hetero men prefer younger women are usually based on showing and rating photographs, i.e. they're done purely on the basis of visual appeal, without considering personality or emotional connection. It's also possible to point out that the behavior of rich, powerful men is not necessarily typical. I'm a 52-year-old cis hetero man, and I'm still deeply in love with my 51-year-old wife (married 25 years next month, together for nearly 30). However, such anecdotes and qualifications don't necessarily help against a powerfully held idea, which is why CBT might be a better direction.
Without knowing you, and based solely on your question, it seems like this belief is entangled with a strong fear of your own aging. You write, "This isn't an aging question," but then you add immediately, "When I'm 45 I'm not going to still pass for 25. I'd rather learn to accept that and not have it destroy me." That's a powerful word to use, and I suspect that CBT might help with that, too, though that's only a lay opinion. I myself occasionally regret the loss of my youth and resilience, but it's not something that keeps me up at night. Speaking only from personal experience, too, I find 50-something women much more attractive now than I did when I was younger, and like jocelmeow's spouse and showbiz_liz's father, I find the thought of having a relationship with someone the age of my students to be ridiculous and creepy.
posted by brianogilvie at 12:38 PM on June 7, 2020 [18 favorites]
Yeah, just to clarify, I was talking about age approriate women, and my SO and I notice cute dudes as well.
posted by vrakatar at 12:44 PM on June 7, 2020
posted by vrakatar at 12:44 PM on June 7, 2020
Please please seek therapy from a qualified expert (not an evolutionary psych “expert”). That is only thing that will help IMO.
Do you appreciate how hurtful your stance is towomen everyone? You are saying that women will always be devalued as they age, and that men will always eventually come to prefer youth over a solid relationship with someone they love. Can you see how that demeans women and undermines men? These views are incredibly toxic, and I’m guessing you wouldn’t force them into a friend or loved one. Treat yourself with that same respect and kindness. (Easier said than done, I know- that’s why therapy is needed.)
Another accused me of cherry-picking data to support my premise that men prefer younger. I'm not convinced that this is true.
You are cherry-picking data; you are! What can you say to the millions of happy marriages and sexual partnerships that survive into old age? Don’t be ashamed— confirmation bias affects us all.
posted by shb at 12:48 PM on June 7, 2020 [11 favorites]
Do you appreciate how hurtful your stance is to
Another accused me of cherry-picking data to support my premise that men prefer younger. I'm not convinced that this is true.
You are cherry-picking data; you are! What can you say to the millions of happy marriages and sexual partnerships that survive into old age? Don’t be ashamed— confirmation bias affects us all.
posted by shb at 12:48 PM on June 7, 2020 [11 favorites]
First of all, yes, you need a better therapist. I strongly second Lyn Never's advice for how to bring this up with your next therapist. Something you saw or experienced early in life made you believe that relationships work in a particular way, and until you figure out what that thing was and work through it, it's gonna be really hard to move forward.
That said, I can offer some thoughts from someone who's been in the same hetero relationship for almost 20 years, without marriage or kids to "keep" me here. I'm a woman, but I've talked through this with my male partner who says he feels a lot of the same stuff—and I believe him, because I know him pretty well at this point!
It's one thing to think someone is cute and fuckable. It's quite another thing to want to live with someone, day in and day out—to make big life-changing decisions with them, to make little everyday decisions with them, to talk with them about politics and history and art, to listen to their jokes and their playlists. Studies may say that men prefer pictures of 21-year-old women, and I don't doubt that is true. But that doesn't mean most men want to live with those 21-year-old women, or even talk to them for that matter.
It sounds like maybe, possibly, you think most of your value lies in your appearance. You might not think you think this, but maybe deep down inside you believe that your partner is only with you because you look young and have good skin and can pass for 25. There is more to you than that. And there is more to a relationship than that. Again, this is where really good therapy can help you.
posted by Mender at 1:00 PM on June 7, 2020 [32 favorites]
That said, I can offer some thoughts from someone who's been in the same hetero relationship for almost 20 years, without marriage or kids to "keep" me here. I'm a woman, but I've talked through this with my male partner who says he feels a lot of the same stuff—and I believe him, because I know him pretty well at this point!
It's one thing to think someone is cute and fuckable. It's quite another thing to want to live with someone, day in and day out—to make big life-changing decisions with them, to make little everyday decisions with them, to talk with them about politics and history and art, to listen to their jokes and their playlists. Studies may say that men prefer pictures of 21-year-old women, and I don't doubt that is true. But that doesn't mean most men want to live with those 21-year-old women, or even talk to them for that matter.
It sounds like maybe, possibly, you think most of your value lies in your appearance. You might not think you think this, but maybe deep down inside you believe that your partner is only with you because you look young and have good skin and can pass for 25. There is more to you than that. And there is more to a relationship than that. Again, this is where really good therapy can help you.
posted by Mender at 1:00 PM on June 7, 2020 [32 favorites]
I want to add the caveat that the research I linked to earlier was indeed about physical appearance only and does not consider age preference for long term relationships.
posted by Young Kullervo at 1:22 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Young Kullervo at 1:22 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
If you choose to date men who don't subscribe to patriarchal norms, you may feel less of this fear.
Some men reject the patriarchal view that men ought to be judged on money and power, and women ought to be judged on looks. These men don't base part of their ego on having an attractive wife.
You mentioned that rich and powerful men date young women. That is because those men generally got to their position by prioritizing money and power over being selfless, helping others, and work-life balance. They obey societal programming to sacrifice other parts of life in order to get more money and power. Of course they also obey societal conditioning to judge women on appearance.
If you choose a feminist man who doesn't care much about power or status, there is less worry of him abandoning you for a younger woman. But he is also likely to have "lower" status, because he isn't spending time focused on raising his status. So you need to be okay with that.
posted by cheesecake at 1:31 PM on June 7, 2020 [12 favorites]
Some men reject the patriarchal view that men ought to be judged on money and power, and women ought to be judged on looks. These men don't base part of their ego on having an attractive wife.
You mentioned that rich and powerful men date young women. That is because those men generally got to their position by prioritizing money and power over being selfless, helping others, and work-life balance. They obey societal programming to sacrifice other parts of life in order to get more money and power. Of course they also obey societal conditioning to judge women on appearance.
If you choose a feminist man who doesn't care much about power or status, there is less worry of him abandoning you for a younger woman. But he is also likely to have "lower" status, because he isn't spending time focused on raising his status. So you need to be okay with that.
posted by cheesecake at 1:31 PM on June 7, 2020 [12 favorites]
I don't think you're wrong that the average man prefers younger women. But you're not dating some amalgam of All Men, which unfortunately due to a patriarchal society is a kinda shitty picture. You are dating ONE man. You don't need to figure out how to grow to trust the commitment of all/ most men; just one. If you focus on continuing to develop your relationship, you might find the trust that you need.
posted by metasarah at 1:44 PM on June 7, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 1:44 PM on June 7, 2020 [8 favorites]
OKCupid did a study where men of all ages still preferred a 21-year-old woman
2 things about this piece of "data":
- men who who stick with their partners as they age are less likely to be on ok cupid filling out surveys, so those results aren't really applicable to the general population, and it's not fair to refute your partner's assurance that he will love you ass you get older based on that.
- it's in ok cupid's interest to make people using their site feel anxious about securing a relationship, because that's going to drive up the amount of use their site gets. it's an insidious bit of marketing that you should be wary of basing your life view on.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:49 PM on June 7, 2020 [50 favorites]
2 things about this piece of "data":
- men who who stick with their partners as they age are less likely to be on ok cupid filling out surveys, so those results aren't really applicable to the general population, and it's not fair to refute your partner's assurance that he will love you ass you get older based on that.
- it's in ok cupid's interest to make people using their site feel anxious about securing a relationship, because that's going to drive up the amount of use their site gets. it's an insidious bit of marketing that you should be wary of basing your life view on.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:49 PM on June 7, 2020 [50 favorites]
I'm sure it didn't help that in my early 20s I dated a series of not-so-great men who were 10-15 years my senior.
yeah. you learn hard true things that way and it is hard to unlearn them later. The problem with your belief system is not that it's all made up; it isn't. The problem is that the true things you learned about men that way are true and applicable mainly to the subset of men you dated: men who are willing and eager to date 10-15 years younger.
(And, you should know, there are women who would never dream of dating men that much older--and I don't mean that there are special, superior women who are immune to pressure and coercion and grooming; there aren't. I am not trying to designate you as a victim or, if you consider yourself one, to victim-blame. but I do think this is important: I mean that among the vast number of former 22 year olds who were, or who thought they were, choosing freely, there are those of us who could have taken a 30 year old seriously and those who could not have. I am not on any high horse; I briefly dated a guy in his 30s when I was in my early 20s. He wasn't that bad a guy, considering, but he was not at any point capable of hurting me emotionally because..he was 34. I mean. I think I hurt his feelings when he realized that my open feelings about men who date much younger (that they are generally very silly when not predatory) didn't have a built-in exception for him. and I never suggested to him that they did!)
this long autobiographical digression has a purpose and a point, which is: I don't know how much agency you had as a young woman just out of your teens, and I don't want to assume either way. But you have some now. You have the mental space and perspective to really think about yourself and what you want. to consider, for one thing: if you believe men are these walking jokes you say you believe they are, what do you like about them? Why do you want to be around one? Why do you want one to care about you? I cannot stress enough that men as you understand them are contemptible walking jokes. I, personally, do not like to be around people like that.
and I understand heterosexuality. all too well! but wanting to sleep with a man is different from loving him. and both of those things are very different from wanting him to love you, even as you despise him. So I think you need not just a therapist but a smart therapist, and those are hard to come by, as you already know.
meanwhile, nothing is guaranteed, but if you find out the basic story of a man's love affairs through low-key no-pressure conversations, you find out his general pattern of attraction. there are men who only go for younger women--too many--and there are the rest. if you let fatalism influence you to settle for the first kind, believing that they're all like that, you will not be happy. But you do not have to just roll the dice and wait fearfully.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:22 PM on June 7, 2020 [20 favorites]
yeah. you learn hard true things that way and it is hard to unlearn them later. The problem with your belief system is not that it's all made up; it isn't. The problem is that the true things you learned about men that way are true and applicable mainly to the subset of men you dated: men who are willing and eager to date 10-15 years younger.
(And, you should know, there are women who would never dream of dating men that much older--and I don't mean that there are special, superior women who are immune to pressure and coercion and grooming; there aren't. I am not trying to designate you as a victim or, if you consider yourself one, to victim-blame. but I do think this is important: I mean that among the vast number of former 22 year olds who were, or who thought they were, choosing freely, there are those of us who could have taken a 30 year old seriously and those who could not have. I am not on any high horse; I briefly dated a guy in his 30s when I was in my early 20s. He wasn't that bad a guy, considering, but he was not at any point capable of hurting me emotionally because..he was 34. I mean. I think I hurt his feelings when he realized that my open feelings about men who date much younger (that they are generally very silly when not predatory) didn't have a built-in exception for him. and I never suggested to him that they did!)
this long autobiographical digression has a purpose and a point, which is: I don't know how much agency you had as a young woman just out of your teens, and I don't want to assume either way. But you have some now. You have the mental space and perspective to really think about yourself and what you want. to consider, for one thing: if you believe men are these walking jokes you say you believe they are, what do you like about them? Why do you want to be around one? Why do you want one to care about you? I cannot stress enough that men as you understand them are contemptible walking jokes. I, personally, do not like to be around people like that.
and I understand heterosexuality. all too well! but wanting to sleep with a man is different from loving him. and both of those things are very different from wanting him to love you, even as you despise him. So I think you need not just a therapist but a smart therapist, and those are hard to come by, as you already know.
meanwhile, nothing is guaranteed, but if you find out the basic story of a man's love affairs through low-key no-pressure conversations, you find out his general pattern of attraction. there are men who only go for younger women--too many--and there are the rest. if you let fatalism influence you to settle for the first kind, believing that they're all like that, you will not be happy. But you do not have to just roll the dice and wait fearfully.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:22 PM on June 7, 2020 [20 favorites]
The problem is that the true things you learned about men that way are true and applicable mainly to the subset of men you dated: men who are willing and eager to date 10-15 years younger.
This is a really good point.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:25 PM on June 7, 2020 [28 favorites]
This is a really good point.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:25 PM on June 7, 2020 [28 favorites]
I used to have this fear/belief when I was younger. I grew up hearing these messages from people in my family, and saw evidence of it. Then in my early/mid twenties, I started dating women, and it felt so fucking liberating! It was like I shed all these body image and aging concerns because I was no longer interested in men.
Anyway, what changed for me was becoming a therapist. I suddenly had this peek into men's true, deep, feelings, that few people get.
What I realized was that many men just love their partners (of all ages) so deeply and loyally. They come to me with all this grief about their love for women of all different ages.
So even if a majority of men would like to sleep with young women, many of them wouldn't act on it and are really content and in love with their partners.
posted by EarnestDeer at 3:06 PM on June 7, 2020 [17 favorites]
Anyway, what changed for me was becoming a therapist. I suddenly had this peek into men's true, deep, feelings, that few people get.
What I realized was that many men just love their partners (of all ages) so deeply and loyally. They come to me with all this grief about their love for women of all different ages.
So even if a majority of men would like to sleep with young women, many of them wouldn't act on it and are really content and in love with their partners.
posted by EarnestDeer at 3:06 PM on June 7, 2020 [17 favorites]
OKCupid did a study where men of all ages still preferred a 21-year-old woman.
To follow on to 5_13_23_42_69_666's excellent answer:
"Dataclysm" author and OkCupid co-founder Christian Rudder uses numbers from the dating site to show how women and men differ in the ages of the people they're attracted to. -- Business Insider, Oct. 20, 2014
It's the female-seeking, presumably single, male users of an online dating platform providing the data by rating the female users, and vice-versa; it's about attraction, not action; and Rudder was promoting a book (pub. Sept. 2014) at the time. The BI article continues:
"But there's another layer to this data. Although men at every age seem to be attracted to very young women, they most often message women who are closer to their own age. The age range of women men say they're most interested in tends to fall within their own age range [...] And hardly any men in their 30s message 20-year-olds."
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:08 PM on June 7, 2020 [13 favorites]
To follow on to 5_13_23_42_69_666's excellent answer:
"Dataclysm" author and OkCupid co-founder Christian Rudder uses numbers from the dating site to show how women and men differ in the ages of the people they're attracted to. -- Business Insider, Oct. 20, 2014
It's the female-seeking, presumably single, male users of an online dating platform providing the data by rating the female users, and vice-versa; it's about attraction, not action; and Rudder was promoting a book (pub. Sept. 2014) at the time. The BI article continues:
"But there's another layer to this data. Although men at every age seem to be attracted to very young women, they most often message women who are closer to their own age. The age range of women men say they're most interested in tends to fall within their own age range [...] And hardly any men in their 30s message 20-year-olds."
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:08 PM on June 7, 2020 [13 favorites]
The thing about aging as a woman is that - if you do it right - what you lose in physical attractiveness, you gain in mental and emotional maturity. I wouldn't go back to being in my 20's or 30's for anything! What you want is a man who appreciates that.
posted by summerstorm at 3:08 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by summerstorm at 3:08 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
It might be a fact of life and biology that men find younger women attractive and sexually appealing and humans find youth attractive. If you wouldn't crumble over a law of the universe you don't have to crumble over a fact of human biology. I don't take it as a personal affront, because it's not personal.
With that being said, I understand your feelings. I also had these feelings when I was younger. I'm 47 and still have a few wobbles here and there. Mostly, I accept my appearance and try not to think about it too much.
In the past I have felt insecure over my looks and have asked for reassurance from my husband. My questions were: "Do you think I'm pretty?" "If I were walking down the street and you didn't know me, would you think I was attractive?"
What was I trying to soothe? My longings for reassurance stemmed from feelings that I wasn't pretty enough for societal consumption. It wasn't about what he thought of me in our relationship. I wanted him to somehow reassure me that I was pretty enough for the world. That was impossible so I stopped asking. It wasn't fair and I had to figure out these feelings on my own. His affirmations were never going to fix my insecurity.
As you age you will probably realize that nobody can reassure you like yourself. You might relax and understand that men are complex creatures, and not one-note procreators who leave their partners for more fertile females. You'll realize there are tons of other things to think about and enjoy and you won't care as much about what others think of your looks.
This isn't an aging question. I'm a skincare nerd and look young for my age, but I'm also aware that anti-aging is a losing game. When I'm 45 I'm not going to still pass for 25. I'd rather learn to accept that and not have it destroy me, and not feel like my womanhood is crumbling with the passing of time.
It does sort of sound like an aging question. At 45, you'll still be a woman and you'll still have the same value as a human being. It seems you're afraid that you won't look good enough for men at age 45 and they might leave you, and maybe if you could pass for 25 they wouldn't.
If you want to accept aging, and if you want to accept that you have little control over who leaves you (for whatever reason) you could start an acceptance practice. Practice accepting your fears of aging and abandonment. Do this by sitting with your feelings. Notice when they come up. Be the outside observer. You don't have to act or twist your feelings into a story that your partner is going to leave you, or all men would all be with 18-year-olds if they could. These are stories of the mind and not reality. Don't take a feeling and turn it into a story. See it for what it is -- only a feeling. It's okay to be uncomfortable for a bit. Observe and let it go just as it entered.
posted by loveandhappiness at 3:18 PM on June 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
With that being said, I understand your feelings. I also had these feelings when I was younger. I'm 47 and still have a few wobbles here and there. Mostly, I accept my appearance and try not to think about it too much.
In the past I have felt insecure over my looks and have asked for reassurance from my husband. My questions were: "Do you think I'm pretty?" "If I were walking down the street and you didn't know me, would you think I was attractive?"
What was I trying to soothe? My longings for reassurance stemmed from feelings that I wasn't pretty enough for societal consumption. It wasn't about what he thought of me in our relationship. I wanted him to somehow reassure me that I was pretty enough for the world. That was impossible so I stopped asking. It wasn't fair and I had to figure out these feelings on my own. His affirmations were never going to fix my insecurity.
As you age you will probably realize that nobody can reassure you like yourself. You might relax and understand that men are complex creatures, and not one-note procreators who leave their partners for more fertile females. You'll realize there are tons of other things to think about and enjoy and you won't care as much about what others think of your looks.
This isn't an aging question. I'm a skincare nerd and look young for my age, but I'm also aware that anti-aging is a losing game. When I'm 45 I'm not going to still pass for 25. I'd rather learn to accept that and not have it destroy me, and not feel like my womanhood is crumbling with the passing of time.
It does sort of sound like an aging question. At 45, you'll still be a woman and you'll still have the same value as a human being. It seems you're afraid that you won't look good enough for men at age 45 and they might leave you, and maybe if you could pass for 25 they wouldn't.
If you want to accept aging, and if you want to accept that you have little control over who leaves you (for whatever reason) you could start an acceptance practice. Practice accepting your fears of aging and abandonment. Do this by sitting with your feelings. Notice when they come up. Be the outside observer. You don't have to act or twist your feelings into a story that your partner is going to leave you, or all men would all be with 18-year-olds if they could. These are stories of the mind and not reality. Don't take a feeling and turn it into a story. See it for what it is -- only a feeling. It's okay to be uncomfortable for a bit. Observe and let it go just as it entered.
posted by loveandhappiness at 3:18 PM on June 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
This is a type of internalized misogyny, you think your major value is youth and attractiveness to a man and you believe you exist in a state of perpetual competition with with other women. It's not only ruining your romantic relationship, I guarantee other women are aware of your feelings towards them too. Find a real therapist or just do the thing where you only consume media from the group you are biased against for 6 months, in this case middle aged women. It really works.
As far as men preferring younger women: given a choice and all other things being equal men will generally choose a sexual partner of prime child bearing age when faced with a lineup of potential partners they know nothing else about and there are no strings attached or consequences, like in OK cupid. Also given a chance most women would probably choose a guy in his early 30s with a nice face and a 6-pack who dresses well, can dance and is 6'2". But that isn't reality, most people over the age of 16 are well aware of the difference between sexual attraction to an archetype and an actual good relationship. Most people would never, ever risk number 2 for number 1.
posted by fshgrl at 5:32 PM on June 7, 2020 [10 favorites]
As far as men preferring younger women: given a choice and all other things being equal men will generally choose a sexual partner of prime child bearing age when faced with a lineup of potential partners they know nothing else about and there are no strings attached or consequences, like in OK cupid. Also given a chance most women would probably choose a guy in his early 30s with a nice face and a 6-pack who dresses well, can dance and is 6'2". But that isn't reality, most people over the age of 16 are well aware of the difference between sexual attraction to an archetype and an actual good relationship. Most people would never, ever risk number 2 for number 1.
posted by fshgrl at 5:32 PM on June 7, 2020 [10 favorites]
OKCupid is about meeting strangers who can only be rated by a few unimportant qualities, including age, appearance, height, income, etc.. There's no way to compare people on OKCupid by what really matters! And in a long-term relationship, you're with a totally different category of person - a person who is not a stranger!
So an average dude on OKCupid who is forced to make a choice based on unimportant characteristics must make choices entirely differently from a specific dude who might never join OKCupid and who has decided to make a commitment based on an entirely different and level of understanding of one other person.
It's not good for us, or the dudes, to see the two situations - an OKCupid survey and real life - as in any way equivalent.
posted by amtho at 6:14 PM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
So an average dude on OKCupid who is forced to make a choice based on unimportant characteristics must make choices entirely differently from a specific dude who might never join OKCupid and who has decided to make a commitment based on an entirely different and level of understanding of one other person.
It's not good for us, or the dudes, to see the two situations - an OKCupid survey and real life - as in any way equivalent.
posted by amtho at 6:14 PM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
Do you know enough older women to know the ones who have been happily partnered for decades, or the ones who got pursued determinedly as soon as they were widowed or divorced? Stereotype says they don’t exist but I know so many.
posted by clew at 7:08 PM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by clew at 7:08 PM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
This is not really about age, this is about your self-worth, and men. If suddenly tomorrow a study was published stating that men always stay with women who have purple hair, a magic solution for long-term commitment, would you worry about age anymore? How would you feel if you looked into a crystal ball and it told you that no matter what you did, you were going to live your life single? What would you do?
Your value and worth as a person is not related to whether the man in your life stays or leaves.
I think therapy could greatly help you.
posted by sallybrown at 7:25 PM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
Your value and worth as a person is not related to whether the man in your life stays or leaves.
I think therapy could greatly help you.
posted by sallybrown at 7:25 PM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
Then in my early/mid twenties, I started dating women, and it felt so fucking liberating! It was like I shed all these body image and aging concerns because I was no longer interested in men.
this is such a mean thing to say in this context. that is, to a woman who doesn't have that option: who is heterosexual by her own admission and already tried dating women to see if a sudden new sexuality could be forced into bloom for her, and found that it could not.
nobody has this option just for the wanting of it. not unless they want to use bi & lesbian women for cheap validation. which the OP already said she didn't want to do, and which is generally and rightfully frowned upon anyway.
women's sexuality is real. even when it is, in the OP's well-chosen words, unfortunate for us.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:58 PM on June 7, 2020 [10 favorites]
this is such a mean thing to say in this context. that is, to a woman who doesn't have that option: who is heterosexual by her own admission and already tried dating women to see if a sudden new sexuality could be forced into bloom for her, and found that it could not.
nobody has this option just for the wanting of it. not unless they want to use bi & lesbian women for cheap validation. which the OP already said she didn't want to do, and which is generally and rightfully frowned upon anyway.
women's sexuality is real. even when it is, in the OP's well-chosen words, unfortunate for us.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:58 PM on June 7, 2020 [10 favorites]
you can also save yourself a lot of heart-nausea and general agita by never ever wasting time on a man who talks about "evolutionary standpoints" and his personal attractions in the same sentence. or just ever, in general.
you might still get cheated on or abandoned, no one can ever absolutely foretell the future. but at least you're spared a certain base indignity.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:42 PM on June 7, 2020 [10 favorites]
you might still get cheated on or abandoned, no one can ever absolutely foretell the future. but at least you're spared a certain base indignity.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:42 PM on June 7, 2020 [10 favorites]
From the other side: how does it go wrong? You're on metafilter, so you'll cross paths with the residents of Crone Island. The brochure looks nice -- individual autonomy in a responsible community not serving another person's needs. It seems you can say 'f_ck it' to anything you don't want to have in your life and be let to get on with the things you do want, over on Crone Island -- and you won't be alone because there's other Crones with whom you can socialise.
I'm confident you're awesome underneath the story you tell yourself (and your culture keeps telling you) that you're only valuable as someone else's asset. Work it out with a good therapist, and good luck picking partners who help you shine at your best, not keep you trapped for fear of being alone.
posted by k3ninho at 4:15 AM on June 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm confident you're awesome underneath the story you tell yourself (and your culture keeps telling you) that you're only valuable as someone else's asset. Work it out with a good therapist, and good luck picking partners who help you shine at your best, not keep you trapped for fear of being alone.
posted by k3ninho at 4:15 AM on June 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
You’ve labeled this a fear of the other woman, but it sounds more like a fear of aging, of not being regarded as attractive. Youth is fetishized in our culture, to be sure, and sexism and internalized misogyny have done a number on all of us. Were you praised a lot for your appearance as a girl and teenager? Did those older men complain a lot about women their age? Did you somehow absorb the message that your worth in the world is related to your appearance, that your beauty was what you had to offer?
You’ve even sought to reassure us you don’t “look” 25. I make the mistake, at age 46, of sometimes being glad I don’t “look” 46. But fuck that bullshit, right? There are also some studies that show that men prefer “aging beauties” over younger women. But, I think you might only find information that confirms your worst fears if you don’t try to work through them in therapy. It sounds like you have an obsession with skincare because of this fear.
So I think you should get into therapy about this. In the meantime, I think you might consider starting to absorb counter narratives as a kind of exposure therapy. What media do you consume? Do you subscribe to beauty magazines and follow Instagram accounts of young women? Think of all that as junk food. You’ve been caring for your skin and now it’s time to care for your brain.
A few things I’d encourage you to discover and lean into: images of women over 40 or 50, and not just models; stories of men interested in and dating older woman (it takes about two minutes on a dating app for women over 40 to learn that some young and attractive men are completely obsessed with older women); body positivity in general.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:31 AM on June 8, 2020 [6 favorites]
You’ve even sought to reassure us you don’t “look” 25. I make the mistake, at age 46, of sometimes being glad I don’t “look” 46. But fuck that bullshit, right? There are also some studies that show that men prefer “aging beauties” over younger women. But, I think you might only find information that confirms your worst fears if you don’t try to work through them in therapy. It sounds like you have an obsession with skincare because of this fear.
So I think you should get into therapy about this. In the meantime, I think you might consider starting to absorb counter narratives as a kind of exposure therapy. What media do you consume? Do you subscribe to beauty magazines and follow Instagram accounts of young women? Think of all that as junk food. You’ve been caring for your skin and now it’s time to care for your brain.
A few things I’d encourage you to discover and lean into: images of women over 40 or 50, and not just models; stories of men interested in and dating older woman (it takes about two minutes on a dating app for women over 40 to learn that some young and attractive men are completely obsessed with older women); body positivity in general.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:31 AM on June 8, 2020 [6 favorites]
I can only second everyone recommendation to try to find better therapists who what to actually help you rather than reinforce your fears.
And I can offer this bit of anecdata: I’m a het cis man in my late 40’s who has been in a relationship with the same woman for the last 25 years. I have never felt the slightest temptation or urge to be with another woman, regardless of age, and find the whole trope of older men with younger women kind of appalling.
I hope you can find peace and happiness, because you sound like you’re having a very rough time.
posted by scrump at 6:56 AM on June 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
And I can offer this bit of anecdata: I’m a het cis man in my late 40’s who has been in a relationship with the same woman for the last 25 years. I have never felt the slightest temptation or urge to be with another woman, regardless of age, and find the whole trope of older men with younger women kind of appalling.
I hope you can find peace and happiness, because you sound like you’re having a very rough time.
posted by scrump at 6:56 AM on June 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
Do you have positive older female role models in your life? Do your various communities (work, family, friends, hobby groups, activism groups) include any older women you admire and respect?
If so, consider talking to them about this, if it feels appropriate, or if it feels weird to bring up, just talk to them full stop, and listen more when they speak. I have learned SO MUCH from the older women in my life, and I try to pass it on to the younger ones. (Example - I listened when they said, don't be afraid of your 30s, you will gain a lot of confidence and lose a lot of bullshit and WOW were they ever right. Whenever a younger friend is approaching their 30th with trepidation, I try to reassure them similarly!)
If not, perhaps this is part of the problem - having role models you admire who you can look to for inspiration is so important.
posted by greenish at 7:22 AM on June 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
If so, consider talking to them about this, if it feels appropriate, or if it feels weird to bring up, just talk to them full stop, and listen more when they speak. I have learned SO MUCH from the older women in my life, and I try to pass it on to the younger ones. (Example - I listened when they said, don't be afraid of your 30s, you will gain a lot of confidence and lose a lot of bullshit and WOW were they ever right. Whenever a younger friend is approaching their 30th with trepidation, I try to reassure them similarly!)
If not, perhaps this is part of the problem - having role models you admire who you can look to for inspiration is so important.
posted by greenish at 7:22 AM on June 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
This isn't an aging question. I'm a skincare nerd and look young for my age, but I'm also aware that anti-aging is a losing game. When I'm 45 I'm not going to still pass for 25. I'd rather learn to accept that and not have it destroy me, and not feel like my womanhood is crumbling with the passing of time.
you know--it actually is an aging question. you say it's not because you are, I think, using "aging" in a coded women's-mag way, which means some ill-defined thing to do with the way you look and not the literal meaning (all of us of all ages are aging all the time at exactly the same rate; an "aging woman" is anybody 18 or over.) But actual aging is scary because every day brings you closer to death.
women are encouraged to stifle and choke off real fear, real existential human fear, because real fears are something real people have. to sublimate fear of death into fear of 'aging'. Instead of those huge human fears, we are supposed to have submissive anxieties about whether we are good enough girls for men to give us approval; about the texture of our hair and the brightness of our skin. we are also supposed to be ashamed about those submissive anxieties, even though they are all we are ever supposed to admit to having. If we have children, we are permitted to stop sublimating our real fears and instead displace them: I'm afraid for my kids' future, you know. which is still not I'm afraid for my own life. but you know and I know that the fear is not what if my tits look different in 20 years but rather what if I can't ever forget that death is in front of me and happiness behind me, what if the only people I can love think of me as a breeding animal with defects.
there is something very positive in your ability to define your fear as fear that something is fundamentally sick and broken in men, rather than in yourself. It's only a halfway step towards the truth, but halfway is better than no way.
Do you have any friends in their 40s and 50s? You don't necessarily need friends much over 50 because you can slip into seeing & treating them as surrogate mothers (unless that is what you need--again: a smart therapist); rather, you need women friends who are in your personal terror zone, so that you can see they themselves are not terrified and don't live in hell. you do need to see that, not just be told it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:06 AM on June 8, 2020 [14 favorites]
A bit late to the party here. If hearing the advice here was useful - awesome! A lot of it was very wise. If not as much, I would look into whether you are suffering from symptoms related to relational OCD. The problem with OCD-like fears, as opposed to delusions, is that they're often steeped in something real, in this case an evolutionary attraction to younger ladies. But the obsessions take us out of the realm of the realistic into a very distorted, magnified, and myopic realm. IF this resonates for you, you may want to seek out a specialist who works with OCD, and in particular relational OCD if you can find it.
posted by namesarehard at 12:42 PM on June 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by namesarehard at 12:42 PM on June 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
It might be a fact of life and biology that men find younger women attractive and sexually appealing ... you don't have to crumble over a fact of human biology. I don't take it as a personal affront, because it's not personal.
As a 65 year old woman, I would be seriously bummed if I believed this was an actual "fact of life", even if I managed to not "take it as a personal affront".
No doubt, some men are hopelessly steeped in the worst of our misogynist culture and they will make you miserable. So, chose your man carefully.
And seconding those who suggested you find a better therapist. Evolutionary psychology should have dropped from serious consideration decades ago—I am surprised and disappointed every time I see that this isn't the case.
posted by she's not there at 1:21 AM on June 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
As a 65 year old woman, I would be seriously bummed if I believed this was an actual "fact of life", even if I managed to not "take it as a personal affront".
No doubt, some men are hopelessly steeped in the worst of our misogynist culture and they will make you miserable. So, chose your man carefully.
And seconding those who suggested you find a better therapist. Evolutionary psychology should have dropped from serious consideration decades ago—I am surprised and disappointed every time I see that this isn't the case.
posted by she's not there at 1:21 AM on June 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
I’d agree that while I 100% believe that you’re experiencing deep anxiety about your relationship, this can’t be answered adequately without examining the aging thing. With respect and empathy and without trying to tell you what you’re “actually” feeling (a much-older-boyfriend move if ever there was one), my spidey-sense says that the abandonment-for-a-younger-woman thing really is a more easily-expressed marker for a deeper, bigger fear: namely, as queenofbithynia touches on, now that you’ve definitively exited the only category women are allowed to exist in without that very existence pissing other people off, i.e. peak Pornhub-style “fuckability”, you are coming to realize how badly society actually hates women as human beings. And if you are BIPOC this goes triple; quintuple. That is true, and it’s brutal. Eventually you may start feeling it directed at you in a way from which you were partly shielded when you were a conventionally pretty teenager. (You were being subjected to it in other ways of course, but they’re things our culture tells us are evidence of our attractiveness, rather than just a subtler form of domination.)
This feels and is traumatic not because it actually means something about your inherent worth, but because it sounds like you’re coming to it relatively late in life. It’s a nasty shock, I’m not surprised you’re freaking out, and you should not be embarrassed.
Your experiences with guys in their thirties and forties is very familiar to me both personally and vicariously through my friends when we were in our late teens and early 20s: admired, fetishized, shown off to your boyfriend’s peers, “you’re not like other girls”, “you’re so hot/skinny/have such great [body parts]” “my ex-wife could never”, lots of photos together on his social media like you’re a particularly large trout he caught, etc. Those statements were not compliments but implicit threats about what would happen if you stepped out of line. And now, thanks to the inexorable march of time, you’re about to. It’s going to be OK though.
That said I’m not gonna bullshit you: all the things you observed as the much-younger-girlfriend are accurate. Plenty of men that age prefer largely or exclusively very young women or actual girls. They don’t like relationships with fully grown women because they are too much work for not enough of the payoff they’re looking for (hint: it’s not love and mutual understanding in a complex partnership!). Not that they're offering anything of true value in return, because by definition they cannot, but women are socialized to excuse or overvalue mediocre BS in hetero relationships so it can be hard to spot.
Most people get the reason behind this pattern backwards. The beauty is a bonus: what those men really get out of those relationships is the illusion of control, of wisdom, of being in charge and therefore not vulnerable to being left or cheated on or in any way emasculated or hurt. (That they frequently are doesn’t seem to deter them or alter this belief.) I’m sure there IS an underlying sexual preference in many or most hetero men (hell, men period) for teenagers; not because teenagers are inherently sexier than adults but because *a lot of men are fucked up*. Toxic masculinity is a many-splendored thing.
Do YOU want these kinds of men anymore, these kinds of relationships? It doesn’t really sound like you do—you’re just afraid they’re the only kind out there, which I assure you they’re not—so embrace that. It TRULY doesn’t matter that they’re going to become unavailable to you, because they are the proverbial shit milkshake: some of the ingredients might be tasty on their own but there is a nasty, inextricable element that makes it totally undrinkable and will possibly kill you.
(Side note though: I would under no circumstances go by hits on porn videos as a guide to real-life sexuality. Have you SEEN the shit that makes it onto Pornhub? There are video categories WAY edgier than “barely legal” that get millions of hits, which I will not name but can guarantee you are not being re-enacted in bedrooms across the globe because they are fantasies and not every fantasy we have is something we will or would do in real life.)
The solution here is not something you can do about or in your relationship with this perfectly decent-sounding chap. This will ALWAYS come back to torment you unless you do the deeper, much more frightening work of learning to reject the male gaze as a standard for your worth or proof of your existence or even something worth thinking about. Otherwise you will blight your life by allowing its value to be defined by people who hate you. And I for one don’t want that for you!
Try instead:
- Hanging out in spaces where you’ll be in contact (and hopefully make friends) with women 40-60. Now that I’ve hit thirty I am *finally* starting to be experienced enough to have something to offer older women as a friend, and holy shit. They never pretend that aging is awesome or easy, but they are by and large grabbing life by the throat, and give precisely no shits anymore about how many boners they induce while they do it. The married ones are secure in their relationships and the un- or no-longer married might sometimes wish to be (MANY do not), but aren’t going to tolerate babyman horseshit to change that status.
- Conversely, there’s nothing wrong with having friends in their twenties, but I’ve found that I have to start shifting my perspective a little on how I identify with mine: we still have things in common and I love those dum-dums to death, but I have had to recognize that they’re still discovering a stage of life that I have had to put behind me, and stop comparing or modeling my life on theirs. Otherwise 1) I WILL feel like Methuselah 2) I start mismanaging the life I’m actually trying to build because I’m getting distracted by stuff I’ve already been there & done.
- I’ve also had to take distance from female friends who think in the frankly sort of incel-y way you describe at the beginning of your question (women should desperately obsess over clinging to youth because men only want to fuck children and sOciEty is the only thing stopping them from it). Especially those who won’t do any work on it or want me to be complicit in/validate it. I have had to do a lot of very heavy lifting throughout my life on this and still am, and I just don’t have the spoons to either do it for them or be constantly involved in that dynamic without getting sucked back in. YMMV but I recommend doing this at least temporarily until you get your bearings.
- Actively tune out clickbait about OKCupid stats and read more work by women, especially feminist women, instead. bell hooks’ The Will to Change, Lindy West’s Shrill, Samantha Irby’s Meaty (really all of Samantha Irby, though as far as I know she does not explicitly identify as writing on feminism), are just some works I can think of off the top of my head which deal in some way with how women (and for hooks and Irby, Black women and WOC) are systematically devalued based on their bodies to serve the interests of capitalism and other systems of domination. It is and always has been a lie, and these writers examine, deconstruct, and/or reject it brilliantly.
It’s going to be alright. Your birthday or your wrinkles or the shape of your tits is not going to ruin your life, because you’re a human being and not a consumer good. It takes work to keep your head above the toxic sewage we’re raised in, but you can do it and we’re all going to be in there with you.
posted by peakes at 5:02 AM on June 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
This feels and is traumatic not because it actually means something about your inherent worth, but because it sounds like you’re coming to it relatively late in life. It’s a nasty shock, I’m not surprised you’re freaking out, and you should not be embarrassed.
Your experiences with guys in their thirties and forties is very familiar to me both personally and vicariously through my friends when we were in our late teens and early 20s: admired, fetishized, shown off to your boyfriend’s peers, “you’re not like other girls”, “you’re so hot/skinny/have such great [body parts]” “my ex-wife could never”, lots of photos together on his social media like you’re a particularly large trout he caught, etc. Those statements were not compliments but implicit threats about what would happen if you stepped out of line. And now, thanks to the inexorable march of time, you’re about to. It’s going to be OK though.
That said I’m not gonna bullshit you: all the things you observed as the much-younger-girlfriend are accurate. Plenty of men that age prefer largely or exclusively very young women or actual girls. They don’t like relationships with fully grown women because they are too much work for not enough of the payoff they’re looking for (hint: it’s not love and mutual understanding in a complex partnership!). Not that they're offering anything of true value in return, because by definition they cannot, but women are socialized to excuse or overvalue mediocre BS in hetero relationships so it can be hard to spot.
Most people get the reason behind this pattern backwards. The beauty is a bonus: what those men really get out of those relationships is the illusion of control, of wisdom, of being in charge and therefore not vulnerable to being left or cheated on or in any way emasculated or hurt. (That they frequently are doesn’t seem to deter them or alter this belief.) I’m sure there IS an underlying sexual preference in many or most hetero men (hell, men period) for teenagers; not because teenagers are inherently sexier than adults but because *a lot of men are fucked up*. Toxic masculinity is a many-splendored thing.
Do YOU want these kinds of men anymore, these kinds of relationships? It doesn’t really sound like you do—you’re just afraid they’re the only kind out there, which I assure you they’re not—so embrace that. It TRULY doesn’t matter that they’re going to become unavailable to you, because they are the proverbial shit milkshake: some of the ingredients might be tasty on their own but there is a nasty, inextricable element that makes it totally undrinkable and will possibly kill you.
(Side note though: I would under no circumstances go by hits on porn videos as a guide to real-life sexuality. Have you SEEN the shit that makes it onto Pornhub? There are video categories WAY edgier than “barely legal” that get millions of hits, which I will not name but can guarantee you are not being re-enacted in bedrooms across the globe because they are fantasies and not every fantasy we have is something we will or would do in real life.)
The solution here is not something you can do about or in your relationship with this perfectly decent-sounding chap. This will ALWAYS come back to torment you unless you do the deeper, much more frightening work of learning to reject the male gaze as a standard for your worth or proof of your existence or even something worth thinking about. Otherwise you will blight your life by allowing its value to be defined by people who hate you. And I for one don’t want that for you!
Try instead:
- Hanging out in spaces where you’ll be in contact (and hopefully make friends) with women 40-60. Now that I’ve hit thirty I am *finally* starting to be experienced enough to have something to offer older women as a friend, and holy shit. They never pretend that aging is awesome or easy, but they are by and large grabbing life by the throat, and give precisely no shits anymore about how many boners they induce while they do it. The married ones are secure in their relationships and the un- or no-longer married might sometimes wish to be (MANY do not), but aren’t going to tolerate babyman horseshit to change that status.
- Conversely, there’s nothing wrong with having friends in their twenties, but I’ve found that I have to start shifting my perspective a little on how I identify with mine: we still have things in common and I love those dum-dums to death, but I have had to recognize that they’re still discovering a stage of life that I have had to put behind me, and stop comparing or modeling my life on theirs. Otherwise 1) I WILL feel like Methuselah 2) I start mismanaging the life I’m actually trying to build because I’m getting distracted by stuff I’ve already been there & done.
- I’ve also had to take distance from female friends who think in the frankly sort of incel-y way you describe at the beginning of your question (women should desperately obsess over clinging to youth because men only want to fuck children and sOciEty is the only thing stopping them from it). Especially those who won’t do any work on it or want me to be complicit in/validate it. I have had to do a lot of very heavy lifting throughout my life on this and still am, and I just don’t have the spoons to either do it for them or be constantly involved in that dynamic without getting sucked back in. YMMV but I recommend doing this at least temporarily until you get your bearings.
- Actively tune out clickbait about OKCupid stats and read more work by women, especially feminist women, instead. bell hooks’ The Will to Change, Lindy West’s Shrill, Samantha Irby’s Meaty (really all of Samantha Irby, though as far as I know she does not explicitly identify as writing on feminism), are just some works I can think of off the top of my head which deal in some way with how women (and for hooks and Irby, Black women and WOC) are systematically devalued based on their bodies to serve the interests of capitalism and other systems of domination. It is and always has been a lie, and these writers examine, deconstruct, and/or reject it brilliantly.
It’s going to be alright. Your birthday or your wrinkles or the shape of your tits is not going to ruin your life, because you’re a human being and not a consumer good. It takes work to keep your head above the toxic sewage we’re raised in, but you can do it and we’re all going to be in there with you.
posted by peakes at 5:02 AM on June 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
a good therapist should be able to help you unpack the basis of your fears and develop tools for growing beyond those fears into a better place of self-esteem and confidence. this will help you in all areas of your life. in the meanwhile you can start trying to develop a series of responses to your own inner dialog. when your fear tells you to worry about these things you say "this is just fear talking, shut up". its a fake it til you make it thing, and if you hear it enough it will start to sink in!
this sort of work is progressive and takes time, so try to be patient with yourself, work on developing some trust in your partner, and best of luck finding a good therapist, I realize that is a tall order in itself!
posted by supermedusa at 9:35 AM on June 7, 2020 [15 favorites]