Would you kindly...

October 19, 2024 1:44 PM

When asking somebody for something

or asking their opinion, I have always said, "Would you kindly, (then the question or request). It has been pointed out to me on several occasions that Americans don't ask that way. I'm a child of the 60s age wise, so no youngster. I would say it's true I am polite to a fault sometimes, and rather reserved. An artist. Could this be an affectation of mine? Is it fatuous perhaps? Maybe I'm reading too many 19th century novels. I sometimes use the phrase "I'm at sixes and sevens" oft times drawing a blank stare and crickets. I may be overthinking this one.

posted by Czjewel to Human Relations (38 answers total)

That’s a key phrase from the first Bioshock, if you’re a gamer. (It does come across as both kinda old timey and condescending, honestly. Fit for purpose in that context.)
posted by mhoye at 1:47 PM on October 19

I would imagine you are just being very polite as a matter of style. It is something I would associate with a more formal manner of speaking or writing/emailing. I would expect you were not under the age of say 50 (I'm not either). I do email with a lot of people, many of student age. I would expect this phrase from a kindly professor. I don't think you can go wrong with this type of politeness unless you know you are in a particular environment or culture of very short and to-the-point communications with no extra words.

I do not see it as condescending.
posted by RoadScholar at 1:50 PM on October 19

Are you serious? So fucking what if you use some old timey phrases in your speech. What matters is that you're being polite and trying to be polite. Anyone who objects to that and/or has the audacity to bristle at some automatically presumed condescension needs to get the fuck over themselves and stop giving you a hard time about it.

Full disclosure, you have won my heart by using "at sixes and sevens" in everyday conversations. Refer the haters to me. I will protect you with my life. New rule, everybody leaves Czjewel alone!
posted by MiraK at 1:53 PM on October 19

The only contexts in which I have been asked to "kindly" do anything were hostile contexts - a snide politeness meant to imply the opposite. Or from clearly non-native speakers.

I am somewhat suspicious when I hear it
posted by Omnomnom at 2:03 PM on October 19

I say "Could you please..." which I think is the same general gist. Unless people are ribbing you for it who you are frequently in close communication with, I would not worry about this. IOW, if this is a partner asking you "Hey that grates on me could you say something else?" that is one thing but if it's just randos, it seems fine to me, old-timey but to my ear not otherwise a problem.
posted by jessamyn at 2:06 PM on October 19

My experience is that "Would you kindly..." and "Will you please..." are soft orders. It is not a request, it is an order delivered gently. Sort of how "I'm afraid I must ask you to leave" is the same request but different tone from "Get out."

I don't think there's anything wrong with it and I don't have a better suggestion for you. It's not condescending but it does presume that the person will do the thing you're asking.
posted by blnkfrnk at 2:18 PM on October 19

In a Midwestern context this kind of more-polite-than-necessary phrasing sometimes reads as hostile to me. ("Midwestern nice" has a buried edge to it.) But I think I would not read it that way coming from someone not from here, and your reference to "Americans" makes me think you might have grown up somewhere else. I think in that situation I would take it at face value.

Have you been getting pushback about it? Who from?
posted by eirias at 2:21 PM on October 19

I'm a book editor (fiction), so I'm deeply interested in words and their usage. I don't think there's anything wrong with you using both phrases, though I'm also not surprised that plenty of folks don't know "at sixes and sevens." It *is* old-fashioned, but who cares?

At any rate, here's a Google Ngram chart showing your phrases, and then your phrases + a more common one, just so you can see how often it's been used in print, in American English. I'm only posting these because I think they're fun to look at (lol yes I'm a word nerd), but I don't think you have to adjust your way of speaking!
posted by BlahLaLa at 2:32 PM on October 19

Absent any specific context of the tone and my relationship to the person saying it, yes, the "would you kindly" wording does sort of set my teeth on edge. For me there's a sort of imperiousness/hostility to it - it doesn't sound like a request from someone who considers me an equal. But that impression is very mild and would be very easily erased by context, I think. I certainly wouldn't care enough to comment on it unless it were part of a much larger pattern of behavior.

I wouldn't think twice about "at sixes and sevens", though. But I have a good scattering of odd constructions in my own speech and writing that come from my youthful reading habits, and perhaps that's somewhere your speech habits and mine would overlap.
posted by Stacey at 2:45 PM on October 19

Thank you all! What lovely answers, mostly. I'm gobsmacked. So I shant change or worry or dither about it. As an aside I love the line from the musical, The Music Man...,,"You better watch your phraseology young man"
posted by Czjewel at 2:46 PM on October 19

eirais. No pushback, more bewildering looks really. Someone did mention Americans don't speak that way, but I brushed it off. I am an American btw.
posted by Czjewel at 2:49 PM on October 19

Mirak...How lovely. Thank you.
posted by Czjewel at 2:50 PM on October 19

This post from the Separated by a Common Language blog is on "please", not "kindly", but is about requests and tone and may be relevant.
posted by paduasoy at 2:56 PM on October 19

I use that same phrase “could you kindly…” on occasion, but in very particular contexts, mostly if I’m in a newly hierarchical role (like a lead on a project or team - when it’s people I don’t yet know). I use it as a way to ease into the dynamic, like yes I am the one delegating things to you, but I’m also recognizing your personhood and not just barging in like a bull in a china shop.

May or may not be related, I grew up in a home where matter of fact requests were often seen as bossiness and insolence. So despite my natural communication style being pretty blunt and literal, I still sometimes default to that overly formal/kindly tone if I’m new, or anxious, or don’t want to draw negative attention to myself.

Also I have been told on more than one occasion and phase of my life that I have an unusual vocabulary, so I’m sure there are times I’ve been perceived as weird or condescending (despite my best intentions!) when I switch to that code.
posted by seemoorglass at 2:59 PM on October 19

By all means try out different words. I often find myself picking up turns of phrase that I've liked when other people used them. I tend to say 'Would you mind passing the salt?' or 'Could you pass the salt?' (native speaker of British English). I suppose someone more formal than either of us might ask 'Would you be so kind as to pass the salt?'
posted by pipeski at 3:01 PM on October 19

[Few comments removed - please be careful with your language when you are talking about people from cultures that are not your own. And please try to not compare users with Hitler. Thanks!]
posted by jessamyn at 3:28 PM on October 19

I'd echo mhoye's mention of the BioShock reference as a pretty significant thing people will think of. It's a pretty plot-significant mannerism.
posted by jackbishop at 3:29 PM on October 19

I frequently use “would you kindly” in work emails (for instance, would you kindly send a copy of the invoice). Never heard “sixes and sevens”. (American, originally east coast now Midwest)
posted by Glinn at 4:02 PM on October 19

For what it's worth, this article came out just this week:
These three words in a message tell you it’s a scam
'If you receive a notification that appears to be from a U.S.-based company like Amazon or Bank of America but the message uses the phrase “would you kindly,” experts say it’s almost always a scam.'

Of course it's different if you're not impersonating a bank! People who know you may well find your language endearing.
posted by adventitious at 4:16 PM on October 19

It is probably a bit of an affectation, yeah. Beyond that, I also associate this with hostility! Maybe due to its use in passive aggressive communication; I suspect that it also has something to do with many years of pop culture deploying this politeness ironically ahead of a decidedly not polite sentiment (kindly shut the hell up/get the hell out of here/etc.) This is more likely to matter in writing, though, as tone or your general demeanor would clarify intent in person.

"At sixes and sevens" is not a phrase I'd ever heard before.
posted by wormtales at 4:24 PM on October 19

I've seen it seen "kindly" taken as an Indian English marker. Quite a few phrases and words survived to the modern day in Indian English that fell out of popularity, especially in America.

"sixes and sevens" does indeed give me the impression of someone who's maybe an Anglophile[0]. Whether people take that as an affectation or not I dunno, but Americans do sometimes interpret some typically-UK words or phrases as a bit affected. (I inherited some British vocabulary from my family so my dialect is sometimes a bit all over the place). Americans pick up Britishisms without realizing it, there's an entire book on it. So you have company!

[0] Wikipedia does note several uses in contemporary-ish American culture so it's not totally unknown
posted by BungaDunga at 4:42 PM on October 19

I think it’s context-dependent and I would interpret it as your unique style.

“At sixes and sevens with you” is in Don’t Cry for Me Argentina from Evita so it’s a phrase I, musical theatre kid of the 70s and 80s, am familiar with. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 5:02 PM on October 19

warrior queen. I had forgotten that lyric from the song. Thanks. I suspect I got familiar with the phrase from reading English mysteries
posted by Czjewel at 5:22 PM on October 19

I'm American. I'm very familiar with the construction "Will you kindly" or "Would you kindly" from reading a lot of English literature, especially Jane Austen.

That said, in modern culture, I rarely hear the expression used in a positive way, like, "Will you kindly bring extra napkins with those mozzarella sticks?" It's generally expressed through exasperated, gritted teeth, as in, "Will you kindly remember to put the toilet seat down from now on?" or "Would you kindly refrain from running your fingernails across the blackboard?" In modern American usage, it tends to be a negative (read: frustrated, annoyed, aggravated) response to someone else's prior, repeated, action.

As for the other expressions, it sounds like you have picked up a quaint, readerly style of Anglophilic speaking. It doesn't sound like people are bothered so much as puzzled. (Might you not be equally puzzled by the average Gen Z/Gen Z ways of expression: slay, bet, cap/no cap, salty, delulu, or rizz?)

Like warriorqueen, I probably first heard "at sixes and sevens" in Evita, written by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice, both British. To a much lesser extent, "lovely," and to a much greater extent, "gobsmacked" are British, and not American. (It's not that Americans don't call something "lovely," but I'm in my late 50s, and it's been a long time since I've heard a non-grandmotherly person use the word: "It was a lovely funeral/wedding," much like my 88yo mom might say, "What a lovely dress; she has a darling figure." You don't hear "darling" much anymore, either. Conversely, everyone I've EVER heard say "gobsmacked" was either from the UK or India, usually having gone to school in the UK, or influenced by close contact with someone from the UK or India.)

That said, I get it. Friends have told me that when I get angry, I become a Jane Austen character, speaking or writing with precise language and somewhat old-fashioned British expressions. The angrier I am, the more controlled my method of communicating.

All that to day that who cares if someone thinks you don't sound American? In writing, you probably want to avoid "will/would you kindly" so people don't misinterpret your tone, but I'm sure you are lovely and charming in your reserved way, and I'd be gobsmacked if someone misinterpreted your gently polite requests as either incomprehensible or orders. ;-)

Perhaps your citizenship is American but your heart is 19th-century British? Be the kind of grownup you want to be. Wear a suit and hat. Hand-write long letters instead of texts. Use out-of-date colloquialisms. As long as your attitudes are modern (diversity, equity, diversity, non-sexist, non-racist, etc.) and your language is merely puzzling rather than offensive, I think you're okeydokey.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 5:46 PM on October 19

Agree It's very much context-dependent. If I knew you, I'd think nothing of it and find it endearing . In business email, absent any other cues, I would take it as slightly officious and passive-aggressive. "Would you kindly at your earliest convenience" being code for "....and why haven't you done this already, you dolt?" (My setting is US East Coast academia-adjacent)
posted by hovey at 5:52 PM on October 19

The only contexts in which I have been asked to "kindly" do anything were hostile contexts - a snide politeness meant to imply the opposite. Or from clearly non-native speakers.

There is a more general issue that Americans often use excessive politeness to indicate displeasure. Remember that Americans are famous for treating people informally almost immediately upon meeting them -- the flip side is that if they are treating you formally you should be paying extra attention.

That doesn't mean not to do it, but be aware that for Americans beings overly polite can be and sometimes is used to show disrepect.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:05 PM on October 19

I understand the request is polite, but I've been trained since childhood (USA, 1980s-90s) that a polite request ALWAYS uses the word "please".
"Kindly" sounds weird. Am I not already kind? Why does this person think I specifically need to be reminded to be kind? And why are they asking for it without saying "please"?
posted by kidbritish at 6:21 PM on October 19

Specifically, in UK idiom, this is what a parent might use to issue a command. 'If you would so kind' probably fits that as well (hint of sarcastic tone typically included), I think they're so polite as to sound ingratiating in other circumstances. That agrees with The Wrong Kind Of Cheese's American assessment.

We probably would say 'if it isn't too much trouble, could you (please) ...' with a straight face, and when coming to levels of politeness - which are generally not so much about formalism and power distance, more how much trouble you're being - more words are more polite. I've never had an American actually comment on it, but I do notice I lay it on a bit thicker than they do and I suspect my accent gets me a pass.

(Also, my answer to pretty much any minor nicety is the word 'lovely' by itself, which probably dates me in British culture, too.)
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 6:31 PM on October 19

First of all, context is king, and the nature of the request, your relationships, age, power dynamics, tone of voice, body language, etc. are all going to matter more than anything else.

That said, my biases:

In normal, casual contexts I generally associate "would you" requests with slightly more aggressiveness than "could you": "Would you pass me the water?" feels a bit more like a command than "Could you pass me the water?"

"Kindly" to me is not a word that feels particularly kind in the context of a request; it feels weirdly formal and possibly sarcastic. ("Would you kindly shut up?") In the context of an imperative it absolutely feels sarcastic, distancing, and aggressive: "Kindly remember that I am not your friend."

"Would you be so kind as to..." or "would you be kind enough to ..." both seem softer than "would you kindly", the former more so than the latter. They are both fairly formal.
posted by trig at 7:13 PM on October 19

I would treat a "would you kindly" similar to "bless your heart" (ie, I'd be searching for context to tell me if you were mad at me or not.)
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 8:23 PM on October 19

If someone said "would you kindly..."

I would assume that either

a) they were being passive-aggressive; and/or

b) they were mad at me.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 8:33 PM on October 19

I'm Australian and "would you kindly" grates. It's aggressive and is the expression of a demanding possibly angry person. It may be understood differently by different people but I'd never use it.
posted by gerygone at 8:51 PM on October 19

I assume you're using it to convey orders to subordinates at work, or to service personnel, in which case it comes across as a bit condescending, possibly sarcastic. In any other context (e.g. asking a friend to do something) it's quite rude.
posted by Umami Dearest at 9:21 PM on October 19

It has been pointed out to me on several occasions that Americans don't ask that way.

Also, you know, if it's been pointed out on several occasions, then this is people's polite way of telling you that it's not being received well.

Just reading your post, it's hard to tell the context and your tone of voice, so I would listen to the reactions of people who took the time to give you feedback; I'm sure for every one who mentioned it there were many who thought it and didn't say anything.
posted by Umami Dearest at 10:34 PM on October 19

"Kindly" in an email from someone I don't know makes me suspect that English is not the person's first language and also that it might be a scam.

I like some older expressions too, but unfortunately for some reason this particular one can set off something other than just "that person is older or quirky."
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:31 AM on October 20

I would say it's true I am polite to a fault sometimes

As someone who was on the receiving end of over-the-top formal politeness a few times I can tell you it doesn't always feel good to the recipient.

In fact, I'd argue that being formal doesn't equal being polite, and that sometimes the polite thing is to be less formal.

If people who pointed this out to you are coworkers or patrons or other people you interact with regularly, I'd consider the possibility that they might not like being addressed in this way.
posted by M. at 7:38 AM on October 20

I would say if people keep commenting on it then it probably comes across as an affectation, and you might want to try changing it up a bit. If you have a certain thing you say every single time, and it's not just an absolutely standard thing, it may sound insincere and/or those close to you may be tired of hearing it.

I actually think it's kind of a linguistic minefield, the phrasing of requests. You're already asking someone for something, maybe to go out of their way; you (presumably) don't want to irritate or offend or confuse or patronize or any of the other things that are possible in that context. Lately I've noticed a lot of people saying, "Would you... real quick?" I find that annoying af because it sounds to me like they are telling you to do something and make it snappy. It may be that what they really mean is, "I won't take up much of your time." Same with language like, "Would you just drop this in the hallway?" Probably trying to sound modest but it could also have the effect of minimizing a request that could in fact be significant. I think straightforwardness is ideal in this kind of situation, but I know others don't agree.
posted by BibiRose at 7:41 AM on October 20

I am aware of two types of politeness.
A. Politeness as it is received as politeness, a context-appropriate display of respect for the recipient.
OR
B. Hierarchical combat; a game of hot potato, a friction between what is said and what is implied. This is the "politeness" where commands are issued, insults are thrown, class is enforced, and a veneer of innocence is publicly maintained. The form dominates the function, and there is more likely to be a loser in the exchange: the first party to prioritize clarity of understanding over formally pleasant speech rituals.

It's understandable to default to one's own habitual flows in speaking, according to the culture and contexts most familiar to you. When there's a bristling, or a speed bump that comes up due to a mismatch in how your message is meant and how it is received, you can think about that like a fork, a choice. Do you proceed with A, curiously? Or do you stick to B, confident that existing power structures will affirm you've done nothing wrong?

If someone bristles at the formality of your speech, it's helpful to understand that they are bristling at your habits, the cultural cape surrounding you, because of their own experiences with that presentation, not you yourself. Some and not all persons are brought up to wear that cape as a tool to maximize the efficacy of social interactions. At some point we stop thinking about these presentations consciously. Some people will take it as a gesture of respect, and some will feel it as a coded threat.

Formal speech is effective speech because it can simultaneously signal to upper classes that you are one of them while also signalling to lower classes your affinity with the class that uses their own customs as a standard, and other customs as justification for punishment.
posted by droomoord at 8:18 AM on October 20