Will my SO's cats ever stop spraying in protest against my dog moving in
April 24, 2024 6:22 AM Subscribe
My SO has three cats (two boys, one old lady, all fixed). I have a 1.5 y/o dog (18 lb. poodle, spayed) who is generally well-behaved but still has puppy energy. The dog wants nothing more than to best buddies with the cats and tries to play with them (approaches them with too much enthusiasm, chases them if they run away) every chance she gets. The cats hate this and respond with hissing and scratching, which has done noting to deter the dog despite drawing blood on several occasions. After a few weeks of having the dog in their space, the cats began to spray urine all over the floors and my belongings at night (we think it's just the boys doing this). I am moving in at the end of the week and feeling increasingly worried that all of my furniture will wind up soaked in cat urine if this keeps up. Is there any hope that this behavior will blow over or anything we can do to help make it stop?
I can see that the cats are scared of the dog, who admittedly goes way too hard in trying to play with them. I freely admit that I am not a cat person and find the spraying to be both disgusting and exasperating. Adding to my bias against the boy cats is that they technically belong to SO's ex-wife, who can't care for them anymore and likely never will again. SO is deeply attached to the cats, so I know I need to accept that they are not going anywhere.
Things we have tried/considered:
1. I'm working on rewarding the dog for being calm around the cats, and this seems like an achievable goal with time and consistency. She responds well to training with food reinforcement, and I am willing to put in the time/effort to do this.
2. Locking the boy cats in a bedroom at night. My SO used to do this when there were more girl cats in the house because they would fight in the wee hours. I would rather avoid this if we can, because we'd have to use the guest bedroom, which would preclude any actual guests from sleeping there.
3. I've heard of people using Feliway diffusers, but my SO says he tried these when the boy cats were warring with the girl cats to no avail.
Please hope me with any possible solutions or likelihood that the boy cats will adjust over time.
I can see that the cats are scared of the dog, who admittedly goes way too hard in trying to play with them. I freely admit that I am not a cat person and find the spraying to be both disgusting and exasperating. Adding to my bias against the boy cats is that they technically belong to SO's ex-wife, who can't care for them anymore and likely never will again. SO is deeply attached to the cats, so I know I need to accept that they are not going anywhere.
Things we have tried/considered:
1. I'm working on rewarding the dog for being calm around the cats, and this seems like an achievable goal with time and consistency. She responds well to training with food reinforcement, and I am willing to put in the time/effort to do this.
2. Locking the boy cats in a bedroom at night. My SO used to do this when there were more girl cats in the house because they would fight in the wee hours. I would rather avoid this if we can, because we'd have to use the guest bedroom, which would preclude any actual guests from sleeping there.
3. I've heard of people using Feliway diffusers, but my SO says he tried these when the boy cats were warring with the girl cats to no avail.
Please hope me with any possible solutions or likelihood that the boy cats will adjust over time.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster’s request -- goodnewsfortheinsane
Any chance of rehoming the dog? Kind of sort of kidding. I am assuming the cats are indoor only, which means they are stuck in the house and have no control over their environment. They can't leave, so they are desperately trying to survive in the little turf that they have. Having a loose dog in their home is pretty traumatic, and it is going to take months if not years for them to actually adjust to that, and it will alter their behaviours, perhaps permanently.
People are going to jump in with suggestions for how to separate them and how to slowly introduce them, but I think that is pretty optimistic given that the cats are adults.
posted by nanook at 6:46 AM on April 24 [18 favorites]
People are going to jump in with suggestions for how to separate them and how to slowly introduce them, but I think that is pretty optimistic given that the cats are adults.
posted by nanook at 6:46 AM on April 24 [18 favorites]
I suggest you start from the premise that it is unacceptable for the cats to *ever* be chased by the dog, and do what is necessary to prevent any situation that poses a reasonable risk of that happening. Keep the dog on a leash while you work on training calmness around the cats, and crate the dog or keep it in a separate room otherwise. If someone moved a predator twice my size into my previously safe living space and allowed it to chase me I'd piss all over everything too.
posted by Rhedyn at 6:52 AM on April 24 [49 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 6:52 AM on April 24 [49 favorites]
I haven't dealt with this personally (my dogs don't chase my cats or even really acknowledge their existence) so I can't speak to how long it might take for the cats to stop peeing, but your chances of success decrease every time the dog scares them. Because the dog has been allowed to chase them, the cats already associate the dog with fear, so you need to acknowledge that you're starting from way behind the starting line here and it's gonna take that much more work and consistency for them to live together peacefully, if it ever happens.
The dog should be crated or locked in the bedroom or her own space, away from the cats, at night. And she should be crated or leashed to you any time you are not actively supervising her interactions with the cats, training her, or playing with her. You might also consider doggy day care to help burn off some of her energy and give the cats a break from her during the day. This may sound harsh, but every misstep due to lack of supervision on your part is another a step back for the cats (and the dog's training - it's inherently rewarding for her to chase the cats, so your training is competing with that reward,) and the more the peeing behavior gets established the harder it will be to get them to stop.
Also, I suppose it doesn't matter that much but since you are not a cat person: I think there is a difference in amount of urine, smell, intent, and location chosen when you talk about territorial spraying vs stress peeing. There are stray and feral cats that come through my backyard and they spray to mark territory - a small amount, on vertical surfaces, smells AWFUL. It's not done because they are terrified/deeply stressed, in fact the nicer my backyard is for them to hang out in, the more they spray to say "this is mine." (I've stopped feeding them and giving them little houses for this reason. We just had to throw out an expensive outdoor couch because they lived on it all winter and after a couple years of this it was irreparably ruined. They are neutered and part of a managed and registered feral colony and have other warm places to sleep.)
This is different in my experience from an indoor cat peeing from terror and never-ending stress, in that the the indoor peeing will be larger amounts and on horizontal surfaces/items. I also wouldn't assume it's only the boys doing the peeing, so make sure you're ensuring the female cat's safety too.
posted by misskaz at 7:02 AM on April 24 [12 favorites]
The dog should be crated or locked in the bedroom or her own space, away from the cats, at night. And she should be crated or leashed to you any time you are not actively supervising her interactions with the cats, training her, or playing with her. You might also consider doggy day care to help burn off some of her energy and give the cats a break from her during the day. This may sound harsh, but every misstep due to lack of supervision on your part is another a step back for the cats (and the dog's training - it's inherently rewarding for her to chase the cats, so your training is competing with that reward,) and the more the peeing behavior gets established the harder it will be to get them to stop.
Also, I suppose it doesn't matter that much but since you are not a cat person: I think there is a difference in amount of urine, smell, intent, and location chosen when you talk about territorial spraying vs stress peeing. There are stray and feral cats that come through my backyard and they spray to mark territory - a small amount, on vertical surfaces, smells AWFUL. It's not done because they are terrified/deeply stressed, in fact the nicer my backyard is for them to hang out in, the more they spray to say "this is mine." (I've stopped feeding them and giving them little houses for this reason. We just had to throw out an expensive outdoor couch because they lived on it all winter and after a couple years of this it was irreparably ruined. They are neutered and part of a managed and registered feral colony and have other warm places to sleep.)
This is different in my experience from an indoor cat peeing from terror and never-ending stress, in that the the indoor peeing will be larger amounts and on horizontal surfaces/items. I also wouldn't assume it's only the boys doing the peeing, so make sure you're ensuring the female cat's safety too.
posted by misskaz at 7:02 AM on April 24 [12 favorites]
If you can install some kind of high perches that the dog cannot possibly reach, the cats may feel a little safer. But you’ll still need to train the dog and confine it when you can’t supervise it very closely.
posted by corey flood at 7:16 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
posted by corey flood at 7:16 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
"admittedly goes way too hard in trying to play with them" means the cats are scared to death. I can't imagine why you didn't think this through and introduce the dog very, very gradually. Even more gradually than one would introduce a new kitten to an established household of cats. I'd like to yell at you for doing this about as badly as possible but there's no point. The dog needs to live somewhere separate from the cats (behind a door at the least), full stop, until the cats have completely settled down. Then you can work on doing a gentle introduction with the full expectation that it won't work, and the dog will never be integrated into the cats' area. And it's possible the cats have already associated you with the dog and now also hate you, which is why they're peeing on your stuff.
Lord this is sad. It didn't have to be this way.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:44 AM on April 24 [27 favorites]
Lord this is sad. It didn't have to be this way.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:44 AM on April 24 [27 favorites]
FWIW, I recommend OP to watch some of "Jackson Galaxy" videos on Youtube. He's like the cat whisperer and has been on TV as a cat psychologist and his own TV show for a while. OP, I know you said you're a dog person, but you need to understand the cat's perspective, and these videos may be enough for you to understand what the cat's are thinking.
posted by kschang at 7:48 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
posted by kschang at 7:48 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
Yes, I would start with figuring out a way for the dog to *never* chase the cats. The dog is the one who needs to be closed in somewhere with a least a baby gate separating him and ideally a closed door for the first long while. Integrate them very slowly and only under full supervision. Maybe only for a minute or two at a time. Expect it to take months at best, and to need quite a bit of time where they are fully separated so the cats can be comfortable again, before you even start to reintroduce them.
posted by Stacey at 8:01 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 8:01 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]
The hissing and scratching was direct communication that the dog was unwelcome in their space. This dog proceeded to pursue this rude and scary behavior constantly for weeks with, from the cats’ perspective, no assistance from the resident humans. So the cats are communicating with every tool they have in the most direct and thorough way possible.
I love dogs and grew up with them but am more of a cat person so that’s the angle I’m seeing this from. It was suggested jokingly above that you rehome the dog; think about this seriously as an option. I’m sure your dog is wonderful and a bundle of joy with you but you and the dog and all your things are intertwined in scent and behavior and life events for these cats and unless they are extremely forgiving and shockingly adaptable felines you are most likely screwed.
If your living situation allows, you might be able to confine the dog to the lower floor of a house with the cats all on an upper floor. This would probably need to be permanent, or at least a years long setup while your dog learns and mellows in a way that usually only comes with age. Cats don’t always need quite as much territory as humans think they do, so if their person is very attached they might have full run of a big place where they might be just as happy with a few rooms that have great windows and lots of climbing and hiding spots. But also, if they are very attached to their person it can be highly stressful to keep them confined while said person is canoodling with the dog and the dog’s scent and spending loads of time in places they can’t access, like say, the living room couch with you watching tv, or the kitchen.
Even if you pull back and take a ton of time with the dog and training and slow acclimation and possible meds for the cats and all that, you should definitely invest in a lot of waterproof containers and coverings for essentially all of your things. I’ve had a lot of things destroyed by cat urine and it is no joke.
posted by Mizu at 8:02 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
I love dogs and grew up with them but am more of a cat person so that’s the angle I’m seeing this from. It was suggested jokingly above that you rehome the dog; think about this seriously as an option. I’m sure your dog is wonderful and a bundle of joy with you but you and the dog and all your things are intertwined in scent and behavior and life events for these cats and unless they are extremely forgiving and shockingly adaptable felines you are most likely screwed.
If your living situation allows, you might be able to confine the dog to the lower floor of a house with the cats all on an upper floor. This would probably need to be permanent, or at least a years long setup while your dog learns and mellows in a way that usually only comes with age. Cats don’t always need quite as much territory as humans think they do, so if their person is very attached they might have full run of a big place where they might be just as happy with a few rooms that have great windows and lots of climbing and hiding spots. But also, if they are very attached to their person it can be highly stressful to keep them confined while said person is canoodling with the dog and the dog’s scent and spending loads of time in places they can’t access, like say, the living room couch with you watching tv, or the kitchen.
Even if you pull back and take a ton of time with the dog and training and slow acclimation and possible meds for the cats and all that, you should definitely invest in a lot of waterproof containers and coverings for essentially all of your things. I’ve had a lot of things destroyed by cat urine and it is no joke.
posted by Mizu at 8:02 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
Yeah, you really rushed this. When we introduced my younger cat (then a kitten) to my older cat, it was a whole month-long process, starting with introducing them to each other's smells (but not sight), then being able to see but not touch each other (via a tent), and then finally being able to touch each other. In this situation, both sides had veto power, meaning that if one hissed or growled, the encounter ended.
So I'd say that for the next couple of weeks, the cats should never need to see the dog, only hear/smell her. And this should involve taking as little of their territory from them as possible. Then have a phase where they can see each other, but the dog can't reach them (using a crate, then a baby gate). And only then, a phase where touch is possible, but where you restrain the dog the moment the cats let their veto vote be known.
And yes, make sure there is vertical space for the cats.
posted by coffeecat at 8:04 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
So I'd say that for the next couple of weeks, the cats should never need to see the dog, only hear/smell her. And this should involve taking as little of their territory from them as possible. Then have a phase where they can see each other, but the dog can't reach them (using a crate, then a baby gate). And only then, a phase where touch is possible, but where you restrain the dog the moment the cats let their veto vote be known.
And yes, make sure there is vertical space for the cats.
posted by coffeecat at 8:04 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
In addition to the excellent advice above about controlling the dog, you might try to enhance the dog's scent with your SO's scent. Take your their used towels, sweaty t-shirts, dirty clothes, etc. and rub them all over the dog. This will help the dog smell a bit more like "home" to the cats. Doing this alone, without the other changes mentioned above (controlling space, leashing the dog, training it to be calm around the cats, etc.) will likely not make a difference, but if you do those things AND also make the dog smell more like home, it might help.
I'll note that the fact that the boy cats used to fight with the girl cats at night suggests that these boys are assertive -- and that will make this task harder. Not impossible, but harder. Consistency and commitment from you and your SO will be really important in making this work.
posted by OrangeDisk at 8:06 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
I'll note that the fact that the boy cats used to fight with the girl cats at night suggests that these boys are assertive -- and that will make this task harder. Not impossible, but harder. Consistency and commitment from you and your SO will be really important in making this work.
posted by OrangeDisk at 8:06 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
I know very little about cats, but it's fairly clear that they're stressed and marking their territory. The cats need space away from the dog. Get some high cat shelves that the dog can't get to. Investigate cat doors that you can install on some of your indoor doors that the dog can't get in. Give the cats a break.
Also - you need to train that dog. Get a longish leash - maybe 8 feet - and loop it around your waist so the dog can't get more than 5 feet away from you. Attach the dog to you. Show the dog that cats can't be chased. Not just that they shouldn't chase, but can't chase. Leashes are invisible walls to a dog. Leash the dog to you for however long it takes that the dog stays calm when he sees the cats. It'll probably take a month of constant leashing or more, and even then you'll probably always need to keep a careful eye on the dog when the cats are around.
Right now, the dog is getting exactly what she wants - A fun playmate to wrestle with! She doesn't know that the cat actually hates her. She's getting rewarded with fun when they chase the cat. You need to break that association. You want the dog to have the association of: see cat - want to play - look at you for permission (but ofc you will never give permission for the dog to chase the cats). You can enforce this by having playtime with other dogs where you do give permission. Go to a dog park or set up a playdate with a friend who has a dog. Keep your dog on leash until your dog calms and looks at you, then say "Yes!" and let them go play for a minute or two. Go leash them again and do the whole thing over again. And over again. Until it's natural for them to look to you for permission to do anything. Please get a positive reinforcement dog trainer. The Relaxation Protocol might be helpful as well.
It's a ton of work to train a dog, but it's actually pretty fun once they start to get it! Training also will wear the dog out mentally and physically so chasing a cat might not be so attractive to her.
posted by little king trashmouth at 8:31 AM on April 24 [5 favorites]
Also - you need to train that dog. Get a longish leash - maybe 8 feet - and loop it around your waist so the dog can't get more than 5 feet away from you. Attach the dog to you. Show the dog that cats can't be chased. Not just that they shouldn't chase, but can't chase. Leashes are invisible walls to a dog. Leash the dog to you for however long it takes that the dog stays calm when he sees the cats. It'll probably take a month of constant leashing or more, and even then you'll probably always need to keep a careful eye on the dog when the cats are around.
Right now, the dog is getting exactly what she wants - A fun playmate to wrestle with! She doesn't know that the cat actually hates her. She's getting rewarded with fun when they chase the cat. You need to break that association. You want the dog to have the association of: see cat - want to play - look at you for permission (but ofc you will never give permission for the dog to chase the cats). You can enforce this by having playtime with other dogs where you do give permission. Go to a dog park or set up a playdate with a friend who has a dog. Keep your dog on leash until your dog calms and looks at you, then say "Yes!" and let them go play for a minute or two. Go leash them again and do the whole thing over again. And over again. Until it's natural for them to look to you for permission to do anything. Please get a positive reinforcement dog trainer. The Relaxation Protocol might be helpful as well.
It's a ton of work to train a dog, but it's actually pretty fun once they start to get it! Training also will wear the dog out mentally and physically so chasing a cat might not be so attractive to her.
posted by little king trashmouth at 8:31 AM on April 24 [5 favorites]
I have introduced my two elderly boy cats to four dogs over the past two years (three short-term fosters and one permanent "little" sister). Everyone is right. As the nominal intruder, the onus is on you to control your dog and integrate it responsibly into the household. The Internet is rife with advice, but here is what has worked consistently for my two cats.
1. Dog (aka newest family member) is bottom rung, but not in a cruel way. Any time all animals are together and affection or food is dispensed, we literally go in order oldest to youngest cats, then dogs.
2. Dogs are separated from cats behind closed door when humans not at home. Crating and strategic separation used while humans are home but engaged in non-pet activity. Unrestricted engagement only when multiple humans present and engaged (only way to catch and reward the behavior you want, in the moment).
3. Scuffles. They happen. Always separate dog from cat, not other way around. No punishment for scuffles--dogs and cats speak different languages and need time to learn. Since growling and hissing are part of that (literally animals setting boundaries with other animals), it can backfire if you prevent them from doing those things. But you can gently redirect if one animal isn't getting the message, but only after the animals have had a chance to communicate first.
4. Safe spaces--all species get their own safe space at home; kitty litter especially should be private/as inaccessible as possible to the dog; and all get special affection time from humans, both with and without the other animals' presence.
Typed out it sound like a lot, but it really isn't. It's just a shift in how you engage with the animals around you, when they're around you; the environmental set-up is more of a safety net when no humans are around to intervene until everyone feels more comfortable.
I don't consider myself an especially adept pet owner, but that is pretty much the same approach I've used for any new pet integration and it works reliably. My cats adjusted well each time I showed up with a stray dog in tow. And now that they have a forever dog of their own, they have become surprisingly affectionate with her and it is so cute when they gang up on the humans to demand second breakfast, etc.
posted by ailouros08 at 8:36 AM on April 24 [14 favorites]
1. Dog (aka newest family member) is bottom rung, but not in a cruel way. Any time all animals are together and affection or food is dispensed, we literally go in order oldest to youngest cats, then dogs.
2. Dogs are separated from cats behind closed door when humans not at home. Crating and strategic separation used while humans are home but engaged in non-pet activity. Unrestricted engagement only when multiple humans present and engaged (only way to catch and reward the behavior you want, in the moment).
3. Scuffles. They happen. Always separate dog from cat, not other way around. No punishment for scuffles--dogs and cats speak different languages and need time to learn. Since growling and hissing are part of that (literally animals setting boundaries with other animals), it can backfire if you prevent them from doing those things. But you can gently redirect if one animal isn't getting the message, but only after the animals have had a chance to communicate first.
4. Safe spaces--all species get their own safe space at home; kitty litter especially should be private/as inaccessible as possible to the dog; and all get special affection time from humans, both with and without the other animals' presence.
Typed out it sound like a lot, but it really isn't. It's just a shift in how you engage with the animals around you, when they're around you; the environmental set-up is more of a safety net when no humans are around to intervene until everyone feels more comfortable.
I don't consider myself an especially adept pet owner, but that is pretty much the same approach I've used for any new pet integration and it works reliably. My cats adjusted well each time I showed up with a stray dog in tow. And now that they have a forever dog of their own, they have become surprisingly affectionate with her and it is so cute when they gang up on the humans to demand second breakfast, etc.
posted by ailouros08 at 8:36 AM on April 24 [14 favorites]
strongly recommend ailouros08's list, little king trashmouth's, kschang's answers. Separate the dog. Get sturdy tall cat structures, there should be a few places in every room where the cats can feel safe.
People use feliway to help cats cope with stress; I have not used it, but it's worth investigating.
The situation, as is, is abusive to the cats, not great for the dog. Trim the tips of the cats' claws with a nail clipper, they're likely to cause infection, and shorter claws are still good protection. I'm not trying to pick on you; if you haven't had cats, you may not see it this way. You're making a good effort to deal with this.
The young dog needs more containment than the older cats. Get a big crate, put the dog in the crate, allow the cats to investigate for short periods. Crate the dog if there's any chance it will get loose when you're not home. Teach the dog No, and get training, ASAP. The dog needs more exercise and more play. I am teaching my poodle to catch cheese puff snacks midair - she loves the snacks and the learning. I had a cat and then got an adult dog. Made a space for her food and litter box that the dog couldn't get to. I used baby gates with cutouts so the cat could move around the house freely, butt the dog couldn't. Even after 5 years, the cat would be under my bed, the dog would walk through my bedroom, and she'd growl. The dog would have been happy to be buddies, the cat never made friends. These animals might decide to cohabitate, but they might not. I'd start dividing the territory, in case they never adapt.
posted by theora55 at 9:43 AM on April 24 [5 favorites]
People use feliway to help cats cope with stress; I have not used it, but it's worth investigating.
The situation, as is, is abusive to the cats, not great for the dog. Trim the tips of the cats' claws with a nail clipper, they're likely to cause infection, and shorter claws are still good protection. I'm not trying to pick on you; if you haven't had cats, you may not see it this way. You're making a good effort to deal with this.
The young dog needs more containment than the older cats. Get a big crate, put the dog in the crate, allow the cats to investigate for short periods. Crate the dog if there's any chance it will get loose when you're not home. Teach the dog No, and get training, ASAP. The dog needs more exercise and more play. I am teaching my poodle to catch cheese puff snacks midair - she loves the snacks and the learning. I had a cat and then got an adult dog. Made a space for her food and litter box that the dog couldn't get to. I used baby gates with cutouts so the cat could move around the house freely, butt the dog couldn't. Even after 5 years, the cat would be under my bed, the dog would walk through my bedroom, and she'd growl. The dog would have been happy to be buddies, the cat never made friends. These animals might decide to cohabitate, but they might not. I'd start dividing the territory, in case they never adapt.
posted by theora55 at 9:43 AM on April 24 [5 favorites]
I introduced a puppy to two cats last year and have a few things to add:
If you can separate by floors, that’s ideal, and it should just take two baby gates.
Nthing vertical space for the cats. In every room make sure they have something like cat shelves they can get up on (and travel on and lie cosily on.)
Depending on the size of the dog, consider installing a cat sized only cat door on one room of the house and never let the dog in, so the cats have a space that is guaranteed dog-free (they never ever encounter the dog there) to retreat to whenever they want.
Definitely do not let the dog chase the cats. We eased up on this around Xmas and regret it, partly because one of my cats now wants to play with the dog and instigates that play, but the dog is 80 lbs so being in motion towards a 17 lb cat at any speed is not great. A black and white no is better.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:43 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
If you can separate by floors, that’s ideal, and it should just take two baby gates.
Nthing vertical space for the cats. In every room make sure they have something like cat shelves they can get up on (and travel on and lie cosily on.)
Depending on the size of the dog, consider installing a cat sized only cat door on one room of the house and never let the dog in, so the cats have a space that is guaranteed dog-free (they never ever encounter the dog there) to retreat to whenever they want.
Definitely do not let the dog chase the cats. We eased up on this around Xmas and regret it, partly because one of my cats now wants to play with the dog and instigates that play, but the dog is 80 lbs so being in motion towards a 17 lb cat at any speed is not great. A black and white no is better.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:43 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
Huge mistake bringing dog into the home. Can he be rehomed if possible?...The urination will continue I'm afraid until the dog is relocated...This is a sad predicament.
posted by Czjewel at 9:44 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Czjewel at 9:44 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
They need a LOT of territory that is theirs, and safe, and 100% dog free, and fun. Forget what they're doing to the objects in the house - these are beings who no longer have any predictability or safety in their lives. They don't deserve to be in cat jail forever.
So: get happy with building a bunch of tall cat surfaces. Cat shelves are a good idea, but they are small and not really a safe place to sleep for most cats.
And: if you can put a half-door in as the door to an enclosed cat territory space, so that the cats can jump in but the dog can't (depends on the dog), that might be good too.
posted by amtho at 9:48 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
So: get happy with building a bunch of tall cat surfaces. Cat shelves are a good idea, but they are small and not really a safe place to sleep for most cats.
And: if you can put a half-door in as the door to an enclosed cat territory space, so that the cats can jump in but the dog can't (depends on the dog), that might be good too.
posted by amtho at 9:48 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
I kind of agree with Czjewel - building a cat aerie is a big solution to a big problem.
One thing I would do: avoid moving in _until_ the cats are not acting out based only on _visits_.
Also: if you don't like them - they can't not notice. Literally all the communication they get is tone of voice, body language, pheromones -- if you don't like them, you cannot hide it from them, and it is like someone yelling "I DON'T LIKE YOU AND YOU WILL NEVER BE SAFE WITH ME" all the time.
You need to play with the cats. You need to spend time with them -- without the dog present in the house at all -- learning how they like their cheeks rubbed, learning what cat affection feels like.
They are lovely creatures. People who like cats like them for solid reasons. Give yourself a chance to discover them.
Because if you don't -- those cats will be miserable for their entire lives, until they die; and you will be angry for that time, and then you will realize that they had miserable lives because of the situation which was totally beyond their control, and you will feel pretty awful too.
posted by amtho at 9:53 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
One thing I would do: avoid moving in _until_ the cats are not acting out based only on _visits_.
Also: if you don't like them - they can't not notice. Literally all the communication they get is tone of voice, body language, pheromones -- if you don't like them, you cannot hide it from them, and it is like someone yelling "I DON'T LIKE YOU AND YOU WILL NEVER BE SAFE WITH ME" all the time.
You need to play with the cats. You need to spend time with them -- without the dog present in the house at all -- learning how they like their cheeks rubbed, learning what cat affection feels like.
They are lovely creatures. People who like cats like them for solid reasons. Give yourself a chance to discover them.
Because if you don't -- those cats will be miserable for their entire lives, until they die; and you will be angry for that time, and then you will realize that they had miserable lives because of the situation which was totally beyond their control, and you will feel pretty awful too.
posted by amtho at 9:53 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
There's plenty of good advice above, which I won't repeat. Came here to say this: I once brought a dog into a household where we already had a cat. We did everything we were supposed to do--slooooow introductions, cat has run of house while dog is the one who's restricted, cat has safe spaces high up, feliway, even medication for anxiety.
And you know what? It just never worked. Sometimes it just doesn't, no matter what people claim about it always being doable if you do it right. They co-existed for 8 years in the same house and NEVER got along. The poor cat spent most of her days in the linen closet, hiding from the dog. When he slept in our room at night, it meant she was free to roam, but also that she no longer had access to cuddle with me--the one person she liked. She was miserable and it made her into a total bitch, because of course it did. She very occasionally peed out of stress, and there was zip we could do about it, except get rid of the dog. When the dog died at age 9, the cat became slightly less bitchy, likely out of relief and (finally) relaxation. She lived many more years, to age 16, but she never returned to the affectionate, playful cat she was before we introduced the dog.
You may have already reached a point of no return, which is likely why you've already seen suggestions about rehoming, or rethinking the situation. I do wish you luck. This is hard on the pets, and it can be hard on the relationship too.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:04 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
And you know what? It just never worked. Sometimes it just doesn't, no matter what people claim about it always being doable if you do it right. They co-existed for 8 years in the same house and NEVER got along. The poor cat spent most of her days in the linen closet, hiding from the dog. When he slept in our room at night, it meant she was free to roam, but also that she no longer had access to cuddle with me--the one person she liked. She was miserable and it made her into a total bitch, because of course it did. She very occasionally peed out of stress, and there was zip we could do about it, except get rid of the dog. When the dog died at age 9, the cat became slightly less bitchy, likely out of relief and (finally) relaxation. She lived many more years, to age 16, but she never returned to the affectionate, playful cat she was before we introduced the dog.
You may have already reached a point of no return, which is likely why you've already seen suggestions about rehoming, or rethinking the situation. I do wish you luck. This is hard on the pets, and it can be hard on the relationship too.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:04 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
It doesn't sound plausible to me that the cats are marking their territory. It is more likely that they are too scared to use their litter boxes. Your stuff is the stuff getting peed on, because it's not familiar so they have less inhibitions against using it as a replacement for their cat boxes. They won't want to pee where they sleep, and they have never gotten into the habit of thinking of your stuff as a comfortable place to snooze.
I suggest you set up the household so that the cats always have access to their litter boxes and the dog never does. No cat is going to risk the terror of being chased by a predator that outweighs them just to go pee. They need to know they can safely get to those boxes without encountering the dog. If you can set that up you've got a chance of getting them back into using the boxes. If not you could end up becoming a household with cats that pee on any soft surface, such as clothing, beds, blankets and carpets. They no longer benefit from using the box and burying their waste, which they ordinarily do to hide it from potential predators . The dog knows where they live and where they hang out, where they hide and where they pee. If the territory where they feel safer is small, then they will be pissing very close to it.
Your dog may not be a danger to the cats, but the cats know instinctively that dogs can and might kill them. It is easier for a dog to thrive on being crate trained than it is for a cat to thrive when it is kept in a small enclosure, so it's the dog that needs to be restrained. I'm sorry, but seriously, seriously, don't leave them to learn to love one another. Your relationship would take a major hit if the dog were to kill or injure one of the cats; the cats can also get injured if they take a flying leap in terror - I had one that got a broken leg somehow, probably jumping from our stairs and not landing with all four paws on the same step. They have a remarkable ability to land on their feet and can almost always escape without injury when they fall - but that's not a guarantee.
Back in the day - 1970's gay commune in Montreal, when we had six cats, we build screen doors made out of hardware cloth and put them on most of the rooms. The cats could climb them. Something like that would be as ugly as hell, but could serve to make separating the cats from the dog more possible.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:40 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]
I suggest you set up the household so that the cats always have access to their litter boxes and the dog never does. No cat is going to risk the terror of being chased by a predator that outweighs them just to go pee. They need to know they can safely get to those boxes without encountering the dog. If you can set that up you've got a chance of getting them back into using the boxes. If not you could end up becoming a household with cats that pee on any soft surface, such as clothing, beds, blankets and carpets. They no longer benefit from using the box and burying their waste, which they ordinarily do to hide it from potential predators . The dog knows where they live and where they hang out, where they hide and where they pee. If the territory where they feel safer is small, then they will be pissing very close to it.
Your dog may not be a danger to the cats, but the cats know instinctively that dogs can and might kill them. It is easier for a dog to thrive on being crate trained than it is for a cat to thrive when it is kept in a small enclosure, so it's the dog that needs to be restrained. I'm sorry, but seriously, seriously, don't leave them to learn to love one another. Your relationship would take a major hit if the dog were to kill or injure one of the cats; the cats can also get injured if they take a flying leap in terror - I had one that got a broken leg somehow, probably jumping from our stairs and not landing with all four paws on the same step. They have a remarkable ability to land on their feet and can almost always escape without injury when they fall - but that's not a guarantee.
Back in the day - 1970's gay commune in Montreal, when we had six cats, we build screen doors made out of hardware cloth and put them on most of the rooms. The cats could climb them. Something like that would be as ugly as hell, but could serve to make separating the cats from the dog more possible.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:40 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]
I see many folks mentioning gates/doors with cat doors in them but you're in a tough predicament with your dog being a small dog - an 18lb (mini?) poodle can fit most places a cat can and that is going to make creating dog-free cat zones harder. If the cats are athletic enough and the dog isn't, the cats might be able to jump over a baby gate that the dog won't, or scale high enough to get away. But not all cats like to get high up to hide - I've had several that prefer under beds or in closets. Just be careful and be really sure if you are using a baby gate with small cat door or any other kind of size-based restriction to spaces that you know for sure the cats can easily get through and the dog, even at her most determined, can't.
posted by misskaz at 10:42 AM on April 24
posted by misskaz at 10:42 AM on April 24
Lots of good comments, one more point I'd like to emphasise is that dog owners often think small dogs are not dangerous, but it is very, very common for 10-15lb dogs to kill adult sheep (80-100lbs) when their owners thought they were only playing up until the worst happened. I can think of multiple times that has happened just in the villages closest to me.
posted by Rhedyn at 11:03 AM on April 24 [8 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 11:03 AM on April 24 [8 favorites]
As a lifelong dog person and newer cat person: get that dog as much exercise as possible. I think doggie daycare is a great recommendation, to tire your dog out and get her lots of playtime with other doggies, and to give the cats time in the house without the dog. A dog walker could work if she was being walked to a dog park with lots of playmates.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:07 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by bluedaisy at 11:07 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
Just re-read my comment and realized that I forgot to mention that you don't do all those things forever. You start strong and then monitor the animals' behavior. They should establish a truce pretty quickly and then it's just a matter of removing barriers as everyone settles in.
For vengeance peeing/marking, ultimately the solution is to resolve the trigger, and the more quickly you do, the less likely the kitties are to get stuck in that angry pee behavior loop. While you work on that, do what you can to get a layer of something between the urine and the surface. For me that is usually cheap puppy pads on floors. Cats tend not to like strong cleaning product smells, so I go all out with bleach-based cleaners on the spots I never want the cat even think about peeing again, followed by an enzyme cleaner like Nature's Miracle (mostly habit but I do think it helps), then either block the cats from the spot for a day or toss a pee pad on top and hope for the best. Remove low hanging fruit from cat access--shoes, clothes and towels--for the time being. Simultaneously, keep the litter area in top condition so that it can win the cat's most popular indoor potty award. I personally think your boyfriend should be doing the heavy lifting to prevent his cats from ruining your stuff, and should also take the lead on the cat-side of the household integration efforts, since he presumably has more familiarity with both their personalities and the physical space itself.
I'm of the opinion that some destruction is inevitable when you live with pets, so I try my best to make sure that they focus that effort on stuff I don't care about when they are revenging themselves. Started doing that after one of our former beloved gentleman kitties destroyed our one nice thing (a sofa) in a fit of pique (pee-que?).
posted by ailouros08 at 11:12 AM on April 24
For vengeance peeing/marking, ultimately the solution is to resolve the trigger, and the more quickly you do, the less likely the kitties are to get stuck in that angry pee behavior loop. While you work on that, do what you can to get a layer of something between the urine and the surface. For me that is usually cheap puppy pads on floors. Cats tend not to like strong cleaning product smells, so I go all out with bleach-based cleaners on the spots I never want the cat even think about peeing again, followed by an enzyme cleaner like Nature's Miracle (mostly habit but I do think it helps), then either block the cats from the spot for a day or toss a pee pad on top and hope for the best. Remove low hanging fruit from cat access--shoes, clothes and towels--for the time being. Simultaneously, keep the litter area in top condition so that it can win the cat's most popular indoor potty award. I personally think your boyfriend should be doing the heavy lifting to prevent his cats from ruining your stuff, and should also take the lead on the cat-side of the household integration efforts, since he presumably has more familiarity with both their personalities and the physical space itself.
I'm of the opinion that some destruction is inevitable when you live with pets, so I try my best to make sure that they focus that effort on stuff I don't care about when they are revenging themselves. Started doing that after one of our former beloved gentleman kitties destroyed our one nice thing (a sofa) in a fit of pique (pee-que?).
posted by ailouros08 at 11:12 AM on April 24
Huge mistake bringing dog into the home. Can he be rehomed if possible?...The urination will continue I'm afraid until the dog is relocated...This is a sad predicament.
I don't believe this is necessarily true, having lived with dogs and cats all my life. There are lots of good suggestions in this thread for starting over in the right way and making sure the cats have places they can get to where the dog cannot. Definitely work with a trainer & your dog as well- we had a pom/peke that fixated on cats and wouldn't leave them alone. After working with a trainer, she was able to control herself. Jackson Galaxy has lots of good suggestions too, so nthing the comments above.
Also I highly recommend Thornell Cat Odor-Off for getting rid of smells. Wash laundry in cold, add a tiny bit to the soap *and* the rinse, dry on a line (or otherwise not in the dryer). For furniture soak up as much pee as possible then spray with Odor-Off. Sometimes you'll need to spray with TOO, soak, let dry, and spray again.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:29 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
I don't believe this is necessarily true, having lived with dogs and cats all my life. There are lots of good suggestions in this thread for starting over in the right way and making sure the cats have places they can get to where the dog cannot. Definitely work with a trainer & your dog as well- we had a pom/peke that fixated on cats and wouldn't leave them alone. After working with a trainer, she was able to control herself. Jackson Galaxy has lots of good suggestions too, so nthing the comments above.
Also I highly recommend Thornell Cat Odor-Off for getting rid of smells. Wash laundry in cold, add a tiny bit to the soap *and* the rinse, dry on a line (or otherwise not in the dryer). For furniture soak up as much pee as possible then spray with Odor-Off. Sometimes you'll need to spray with TOO, soak, let dry, and spray again.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:29 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
I know you're moving in very soon - y'all need to establish totally separate territories immediately for the cats, and their territory needs to be a place where people spend a lot of time. A lot. Being forced to stay in a boring room with no human interaction all the time is not going to make them feel secure.
posted by amtho at 1:41 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
posted by amtho at 1:41 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
The dog is the root cause here. Moreover, doggo is much more trainable than the cats. Your dog should be the one crated or confined to a room at night/ whenever you aren’t around. When not confined in her safe space, the dog needs to be wearing a long indoor leash so that the human can physically restrain the dog if necessary. Consider doing agility training or some other dog-centric physical activity that also provides mental stimulation. I think it would be a good idea to sign her up for doggy day care, so that she comes home exhausted and can satisfy her need to interact with other adorable beings.
Consider boarding the dog for some period of time while the cats get used to your full time presence.
I do think you need to have a game plan for the possibility that the pets in your household are not compatible. Some dogs cannot be trained out of their prey drive. Some pets will never accept a new four legged family member.
posted by oceano at 1:49 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
Consider boarding the dog for some period of time while the cats get used to your full time presence.
I do think you need to have a game plan for the possibility that the pets in your household are not compatible. Some dogs cannot be trained out of their prey drive. Some pets will never accept a new four legged family member.
posted by oceano at 1:49 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
One other option: foster a second dog (NO prey drive, no barking, low need for attention) to play with the first dog, so that it has less need to play with the cats.
posted by amtho at 2:54 PM on April 24
posted by amtho at 2:54 PM on April 24
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posted by kschang at 6:29 AM on April 24 [26 favorites]