Self-talk to find reality again after being psychologically abused
January 7, 2024 11:22 PM Subscribe
There is a crisis happening now that could be my momentum to getting out of my bad marriage, but I think I have to remain "awake" to the abusive behavior over time which is difficult. If you got out of a relationship riddled with narcissistic and possibly sociopathic behaviors, please share your best practices.
My main question is for strategies to help someone remain awake to the truth of their situation so they can get out of it. The rest is extra context but I feel bad for saying so much, and hope that i can also get feedback from those that don't want to read everything.
One thing I am trying to do, for example, is when I get caught in whether the behavior is due to poor self esteem or shame issues or ADHD, or whether it is due to an antisocial personality, the results are the same. I need to get out regardless of why he is doing these things because I gave chances to change them and he didn't change them enough.
Because he has warped my mind so badly, I don't know what's true. Am I the abusive one as he's said? How can he be abusive if he attempts a loving gesture when I am in the middle of a resentment fueled rant? If it really is ASPD then I have so many other questions like does that person truly either not care or take pleasure in being financially parasitic?
I cringe when I see posts from the past where I was saying so many of the things I feel are still true now. But here I am.
My husband had me convinced for quite a while that my desire to divorce was either abusive behavior on my end (threatening to end the relationship to get my way), or a sign of my messed up childhood causing me to reject love. (Holy shit this man has fucked my mind up.)
The story of the sweet, kind hearted man with self esteem issues from his ADHD fits so well, most of the time. I've caught him in a few lies and usually his reason is about embarrassment which fits the self esteem story.
Husband is still a hands on parent. He does all the cooking and most of the grocery shopping. He will inconvenience himself greatly for my benefit in doing a long project of some kind. He will take that thing out in the cold weather or spend weeks in the attic in the summer. He cleans when I ask or does so the same day generally. He was amazing for the first 2 weeks after we had our baby. He lets me sleep in every weekend. He supports me going out for self care whenever I want to.
But he's unemployed again. This time, like the last time I helped set up job search assistance, I caught him lying saying he participated in the assistance when he didn't. He claims that these are ADHD related lies. That still fits the story of the ADHD guy with low self esteem.
He's also still quite conflict avoidant and reflexively invalidating to me. He also now has the story of "late diagnosed autistic" to muddy the waters. When I have a grievance he usually dismisses it, then we end up arguing over whether my concern is "important enough" to "ruin the evening by picking a fight." He sucks at apologizing and blame shifts. I actually pointed out his DARVO communication to him a few days ago.
He describes himself as feeling empty inside. He turns his charming self on and off very easily. He sounds disdainful and condescending during a disagreement. He tells me that this is his anxiety. He owed like 50k in child support to the ex at one time. Currently owes about 5k since he's not working and has not made arrangements to change the child support expectations.
I feel like the person he was before I married and relocated with him is not the one he was once I was hooked. He withdrew affection and most of what I married him for and I have been chasing it since then. So much of what I am experiencing fits this story of a late diagnosed neurodivergent man with low self esteem. But, I feel like he uses operant conditioning on me a lot which seems pretty complex for someone that is somehow so impaired otherwise.
But what if this is really all my fault? I don't know how to let things be good, don't know how to accept things won't always be perfect like he says? I have been overly critical and reactive. I struggle to choose my battles then anxiety makes me stuck and I overcommunicate. I'm sure it's exhausting. If I am wrong that my husband is a sociopath, and his actions are a combination of reacting to my toxic behavior and self esteem issues, then I could be blowing up a marriage that could actually get better.
Really if I do conflict communication only his way (very slow, maybe written down vs spoken, and ideally schedule it into a weekly meeting vs just voicing a concern whenever an issue is happening), things do tend to work much better. So then how much of this is me, vs him, vs us together? If I am going to make a relationship trash that I thought would be wonderful, then I would rather try to work through the things I do to make it trash now, than leave and possibly do all the same shit to someone else.
OTOH I read the list of diagnostic criteria for ASPD and I'm like gosh, is that what is happening? Is that why he got me to attach to him when I just refused to with anyone else? He worked hard in the beginning to make me feel safe to love someone. But he's not violent and not openly insulting outside of conflicts. It's all more nuanced.
I read the Lundy Bancroft book and there's a little that fits about the stoic covert abuser but so many other issues in that book I see more in myself than my partner. I can be too critical and controlling. I can be jealous. I was not a snoop in other relationships but I've been a snoop in this one. My ability to maintain my own boundaries is terrible and unfortunately I do not respect his boundaries as well as I'd like. I have called the domestic abuse hotline about myself as a potential perpetrator twice.
Most of what he does to me that is messing me up isn't in the standard DV discussion as he is so smart that what he is doing is hard to detect and hard to articulate to anyone. But my family is crazy, and his family looks like an LL Bean catalogue. So that makes me think I really am the problem.
I try to leave. He refuses to accept me saying I want to leave, and says it is out of protection for me and us because sometimes I change my mind about that when I calm back down. He basically stonewalls until I stop trying to discuss terms of a divorce. In the very beginning, his multiple trips to jail when we had an infant caused me some trauma and i would probably throw out the word divorce for the wrong reasons.
But the last year or two if I bring it up at all, it's because he is being avoidant or dismissive, and if healthy communication won't get me results then I see divorce as my only other option. But if I say it while agitated he thinks I'm just having a tantrum or acting out my attachment issues.
I've used too much of my mental energy trying to figure out if I am the problem or if he has just manipulated me to hell and back and trained me to ignore my intuition about him. I'm tired of questioning the situation. But the idea that someone would go to these lengths to fuck with another person intentionally I just can't really wrap my mind around.
But also if he is a sociopath then how do I get him employed so I can more realistically send him away? If I ask him to leave now, legally I am responsible for his living expenses since he is not working. How do people in relationships with financial users extricate themselves? If I need to bide my time and maybe manipulate the situation myself to improve his chance of getting a job, then how do I remain loyal to my current position of needing to divorce him? I get to this point and steel my resolve... He pulls me back in eventually by being charming, kind and helpful.
I can't let him reel me back in this time y'all. Someone that is this comfortable with lying and who does it so easily is someone I need to get away from even if I'm really the problem. But it will be hard to find any peace from all of this if I can't stop ruminating on why it's all happening.
My main question is for strategies to help someone remain awake to the truth of their situation so they can get out of it. The rest is extra context but I feel bad for saying so much, and hope that i can also get feedback from those that don't want to read everything.
One thing I am trying to do, for example, is when I get caught in whether the behavior is due to poor self esteem or shame issues or ADHD, or whether it is due to an antisocial personality, the results are the same. I need to get out regardless of why he is doing these things because I gave chances to change them and he didn't change them enough.
Because he has warped my mind so badly, I don't know what's true. Am I the abusive one as he's said? How can he be abusive if he attempts a loving gesture when I am in the middle of a resentment fueled rant? If it really is ASPD then I have so many other questions like does that person truly either not care or take pleasure in being financially parasitic?
I cringe when I see posts from the past where I was saying so many of the things I feel are still true now. But here I am.
My husband had me convinced for quite a while that my desire to divorce was either abusive behavior on my end (threatening to end the relationship to get my way), or a sign of my messed up childhood causing me to reject love. (Holy shit this man has fucked my mind up.)
The story of the sweet, kind hearted man with self esteem issues from his ADHD fits so well, most of the time. I've caught him in a few lies and usually his reason is about embarrassment which fits the self esteem story.
Husband is still a hands on parent. He does all the cooking and most of the grocery shopping. He will inconvenience himself greatly for my benefit in doing a long project of some kind. He will take that thing out in the cold weather or spend weeks in the attic in the summer. He cleans when I ask or does so the same day generally. He was amazing for the first 2 weeks after we had our baby. He lets me sleep in every weekend. He supports me going out for self care whenever I want to.
But he's unemployed again. This time, like the last time I helped set up job search assistance, I caught him lying saying he participated in the assistance when he didn't. He claims that these are ADHD related lies. That still fits the story of the ADHD guy with low self esteem.
He's also still quite conflict avoidant and reflexively invalidating to me. He also now has the story of "late diagnosed autistic" to muddy the waters. When I have a grievance he usually dismisses it, then we end up arguing over whether my concern is "important enough" to "ruin the evening by picking a fight." He sucks at apologizing and blame shifts. I actually pointed out his DARVO communication to him a few days ago.
He describes himself as feeling empty inside. He turns his charming self on and off very easily. He sounds disdainful and condescending during a disagreement. He tells me that this is his anxiety. He owed like 50k in child support to the ex at one time. Currently owes about 5k since he's not working and has not made arrangements to change the child support expectations.
I feel like the person he was before I married and relocated with him is not the one he was once I was hooked. He withdrew affection and most of what I married him for and I have been chasing it since then. So much of what I am experiencing fits this story of a late diagnosed neurodivergent man with low self esteem. But, I feel like he uses operant conditioning on me a lot which seems pretty complex for someone that is somehow so impaired otherwise.
But what if this is really all my fault? I don't know how to let things be good, don't know how to accept things won't always be perfect like he says? I have been overly critical and reactive. I struggle to choose my battles then anxiety makes me stuck and I overcommunicate. I'm sure it's exhausting. If I am wrong that my husband is a sociopath, and his actions are a combination of reacting to my toxic behavior and self esteem issues, then I could be blowing up a marriage that could actually get better.
Really if I do conflict communication only his way (very slow, maybe written down vs spoken, and ideally schedule it into a weekly meeting vs just voicing a concern whenever an issue is happening), things do tend to work much better. So then how much of this is me, vs him, vs us together? If I am going to make a relationship trash that I thought would be wonderful, then I would rather try to work through the things I do to make it trash now, than leave and possibly do all the same shit to someone else.
OTOH I read the list of diagnostic criteria for ASPD and I'm like gosh, is that what is happening? Is that why he got me to attach to him when I just refused to with anyone else? He worked hard in the beginning to make me feel safe to love someone. But he's not violent and not openly insulting outside of conflicts. It's all more nuanced.
I read the Lundy Bancroft book and there's a little that fits about the stoic covert abuser but so many other issues in that book I see more in myself than my partner. I can be too critical and controlling. I can be jealous. I was not a snoop in other relationships but I've been a snoop in this one. My ability to maintain my own boundaries is terrible and unfortunately I do not respect his boundaries as well as I'd like. I have called the domestic abuse hotline about myself as a potential perpetrator twice.
Most of what he does to me that is messing me up isn't in the standard DV discussion as he is so smart that what he is doing is hard to detect and hard to articulate to anyone. But my family is crazy, and his family looks like an LL Bean catalogue. So that makes me think I really am the problem.
I try to leave. He refuses to accept me saying I want to leave, and says it is out of protection for me and us because sometimes I change my mind about that when I calm back down. He basically stonewalls until I stop trying to discuss terms of a divorce. In the very beginning, his multiple trips to jail when we had an infant caused me some trauma and i would probably throw out the word divorce for the wrong reasons.
But the last year or two if I bring it up at all, it's because he is being avoidant or dismissive, and if healthy communication won't get me results then I see divorce as my only other option. But if I say it while agitated he thinks I'm just having a tantrum or acting out my attachment issues.
I've used too much of my mental energy trying to figure out if I am the problem or if he has just manipulated me to hell and back and trained me to ignore my intuition about him. I'm tired of questioning the situation. But the idea that someone would go to these lengths to fuck with another person intentionally I just can't really wrap my mind around.
But also if he is a sociopath then how do I get him employed so I can more realistically send him away? If I ask him to leave now, legally I am responsible for his living expenses since he is not working. How do people in relationships with financial users extricate themselves? If I need to bide my time and maybe manipulate the situation myself to improve his chance of getting a job, then how do I remain loyal to my current position of needing to divorce him? I get to this point and steel my resolve... He pulls me back in eventually by being charming, kind and helpful.
I can't let him reel me back in this time y'all. Someone that is this comfortable with lying and who does it so easily is someone I need to get away from even if I'm really the problem. But it will be hard to find any peace from all of this if I can't stop ruminating on why it's all happening.
He doesn't have to be abusive or have a personality disorder for you to be justified in leaving. And you don't need to prove to yourself that you are faultless or otherwise you are not allowed to leave. It sounds like the relationship isn't working, you don't have much optimism that it will start working, and you want to leave. Wanting to leave is enough.
Just from this internet stranger's view, you are justified in finding his behaviour unacceptable and not wanting to be in this relationship. But nothing requires you to debate that with him. Approaching the discussion in this way seems to have repeatedly given him opportunities to muddle your thinking about it, to distract from the main point which is that you want to leave.
So as far as strategies, I would take as much time as you can away from him to do your clear-headed thinking, talk to people you trust, and make your decision. Write down for yourself what the decision is, and your personal reasons. But then when it comes time to tell him, present it as the unalterable fact that it is, and don't feel the need to justify it or offer reasons to him.
posted by lookoutbelow at 1:47 AM on January 8 [22 favorites]
Just from this internet stranger's view, you are justified in finding his behaviour unacceptable and not wanting to be in this relationship. But nothing requires you to debate that with him. Approaching the discussion in this way seems to have repeatedly given him opportunities to muddle your thinking about it, to distract from the main point which is that you want to leave.
So as far as strategies, I would take as much time as you can away from him to do your clear-headed thinking, talk to people you trust, and make your decision. Write down for yourself what the decision is, and your personal reasons. But then when it comes time to tell him, present it as the unalterable fact that it is, and don't feel the need to justify it or offer reasons to him.
posted by lookoutbelow at 1:47 AM on January 8 [22 favorites]
If it's his fault, then he's bad for you.
If it's your fault, then you're bad for him.
It is both of your faults, then you're bad for each other.
If it's nobody's fault, you can still be a bad match for each other.
Whichever way it is, does it really matter? If your marriage is bad for you, then it's bad for you. Thinking about fault here sounds like a waste of time.
posted by trig at 2:12 AM on January 8 [37 favorites]
If it's your fault, then you're bad for him.
It is both of your faults, then you're bad for each other.
If it's nobody's fault, you can still be a bad match for each other.
Whichever way it is, does it really matter? If your marriage is bad for you, then it's bad for you. Thinking about fault here sounds like a waste of time.
posted by trig at 2:12 AM on January 8 [37 favorites]
This sounds like it could turn into a nightmare because he’s become a much more hands on parent since what you mentioned in your last posts. And he’s shown he’s able to document your behavior and you know he triggers you and you get mad. You said for example that he lets you go focus on projects and self care, that will be described as you putting work first while handles all the childcare duties etc. and he’s already called you the abuser…. so you want to start documenting things yourself maybe in advance…. I think you need to have a good talk with a high conflict divorce coach (or something like that, who can warn you how to keep your side of the sidewalk squeaky clean) because if he’s not working he might ask for full custody and you might end up being on the line for all that and he might qualify for legal aid and be bugging you for the next several years making this period look like heaven. You want to find out where you really stand before you start making major ructions if you think he might really be a sociopath.
I found just Talking with lawyers they don’t really spell it out for you 100 percent.
posted by catspajammies at 4:11 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
I found just Talking with lawyers they don’t really spell it out for you 100 percent.
posted by catspajammies at 4:11 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
“how do I remain loyal to my current position of needing to divorce him? I get to this point and steel my resolve... He pulls me back in eventually by being charming, kind and helpful.“
Remind yourself that this marriage is a piece of paper and rip it up in your mind. Remind yourself that whether or not he is being charming, kind and helpful, unless he is pulling his weight in the ways you agreed then you are vulnerable to court decisions that you do not like. That will pull you back down to earth- but mentally let that go so you don’t get mad (in his presence to be documented)
posted by catspajammies at 4:18 AM on January 8
Remind yourself that this marriage is a piece of paper and rip it up in your mind. Remind yourself that whether or not he is being charming, kind and helpful, unless he is pulling his weight in the ways you agreed then you are vulnerable to court decisions that you do not like. That will pull you back down to earth- but mentally let that go so you don’t get mad (in his presence to be documented)
posted by catspajammies at 4:18 AM on January 8
Your marriage is bad.
That is the only thing that matters and is the only thing you should hold on to. You already know that it is not going to stop being bad. It might have been bad in a different way in the past, and it might be bad in a different way in the future, but it's all bad.
You should leave your marriage because it is bad. Even if someone (incorrectly) tells you it is your fault it is bad you should leave anyway. Not least because fault does not matter. He does not need to consent to a divorce, you can divorce him anyway.
Your next step is contacting divorce lawyers who practises in your jurisdiction and specialises in high conflict divorces. Choose one that you feel you can trust. You should listen carefully to their advice and then follow it. Do not use them as a therapist. Get an actual therapist. Use the lawyer as a cold-hearted tool to leave from this marriage with as little damage to yourself as possible.
You are a good person and a strong person. You can do this.
posted by plonkee at 4:25 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
That is the only thing that matters and is the only thing you should hold on to. You already know that it is not going to stop being bad. It might have been bad in a different way in the past, and it might be bad in a different way in the future, but it's all bad.
You should leave your marriage because it is bad. Even if someone (incorrectly) tells you it is your fault it is bad you should leave anyway. Not least because fault does not matter. He does not need to consent to a divorce, you can divorce him anyway.
Your next step is contacting divorce lawyers who practises in your jurisdiction and specialises in high conflict divorces. Choose one that you feel you can trust. You should listen carefully to their advice and then follow it. Do not use them as a therapist. Get an actual therapist. Use the lawyer as a cold-hearted tool to leave from this marriage with as little damage to yourself as possible.
You are a good person and a strong person. You can do this.
posted by plonkee at 4:25 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
Writing things down was critical for me, too. My ex was a masterful spinner of any situation, no matter how bad: here's how it was my fault, here's what is wrong with me that explains why I did it again, here is how I need to be better at responding to their mental health issues. Going back and looking at a log that was as factual as possible helped me keep my head on straight, and was instrumental in propelling me out of the relationship. I had a set of questions about the day, and one line that was simply S/G- based on how I am feeling today, do I want to stay or go? It didn't take long for the pattern to become very clear.
You need to remember that you can divorce someone with ADHD and/or autism. It doesn't matter. You can divorce someone with poor self-esteem or shame issues. You can divorce someone if everything he says about you is true (it's not, even if you're not proud of 100% of your behavior). It doesn't matter. The choice here isn't between divorce and a good marriage. The latter is not on the table. This isn't a marriage that 'could be better.' This is the marriage you have, to a man who is approaching middle age--i.e. has had plenty of time to learn and grow--after years of working on it in couples therapy. This is this marriage's version of 'better.' Regardless of anything else, it does not sound like it is a marriage in which you are happy or able to be your best self.
The job part is tricky and real. Do quietly consult with a lawyer. Do keep helping him get a job, and don't bring up divorce again until you know what your plan is and you're sharing information, not opening a negotiation. Are you in individual therapy? Regular meetings with someone who's there to support you would be my best recommendation for helping you remember what's true for you. If you can't swing that, do keep a regular log, somewhere secure and password-protected. And come back to read your various posts here and the comments on them as much as you need to. It is incredibly difficult to navigate this kind of warped reality, but you are doing it. Keep going.
posted by wormtales at 5:49 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
You need to remember that you can divorce someone with ADHD and/or autism. It doesn't matter. You can divorce someone with poor self-esteem or shame issues. You can divorce someone if everything he says about you is true (it's not, even if you're not proud of 100% of your behavior). It doesn't matter. The choice here isn't between divorce and a good marriage. The latter is not on the table. This isn't a marriage that 'could be better.' This is the marriage you have, to a man who is approaching middle age--i.e. has had plenty of time to learn and grow--after years of working on it in couples therapy. This is this marriage's version of 'better.' Regardless of anything else, it does not sound like it is a marriage in which you are happy or able to be your best self.
The job part is tricky and real. Do quietly consult with a lawyer. Do keep helping him get a job, and don't bring up divorce again until you know what your plan is and you're sharing information, not opening a negotiation. Are you in individual therapy? Regular meetings with someone who's there to support you would be my best recommendation for helping you remember what's true for you. If you can't swing that, do keep a regular log, somewhere secure and password-protected. And come back to read your various posts here and the comments on them as much as you need to. It is incredibly difficult to navigate this kind of warped reality, but you are doing it. Keep going.
posted by wormtales at 5:49 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
For staying awake/aware of your situation I think these basics go a long way:
- Write things down, both the good and the bad, and review periodically (maybe every couple of weeks) to refresh your memory, understand patterns of behavior, and understand how your own emotional health is impacted over time.
- Ask some trusted friends/family for their perspective, and also ask them to check in with you about your well-being
- Get some regular individual counseling (if that's within your financial means)
In a broader sense... You do not need anyone's permission to want to leave your marriage. That is not something you earn by winning an argument or proving that your spouse is more in the wrong or more disordered than you. It doesn't matter if you or your spouse has an official mental health condition or are just behaving badly for some non-clinical reason (and honestly, both of you trying to diagnose each other with cluster B personality disorders is a big smell in and of itself). It doesn't matter if there are some good times, some good qualities, if they are ultimately outweighed by the bad.
If it's not working then it's not working. If you have made a sincere effort to resolve your difficulties and still find that it's not working, it is not morally wrong to divorce. Even if you are responsible for 99% of the problems it is not wrong. It might cost you something to leave (financially, socially, emotionally, or all three) but that doesn't make it wrong either.
Here's a question to ask yourself: does this marriage support you being your better self?
posted by 4rtemis at 6:24 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
- Write things down, both the good and the bad, and review periodically (maybe every couple of weeks) to refresh your memory, understand patterns of behavior, and understand how your own emotional health is impacted over time.
- Ask some trusted friends/family for their perspective, and also ask them to check in with you about your well-being
- Get some regular individual counseling (if that's within your financial means)
In a broader sense... You do not need anyone's permission to want to leave your marriage. That is not something you earn by winning an argument or proving that your spouse is more in the wrong or more disordered than you. It doesn't matter if you or your spouse has an official mental health condition or are just behaving badly for some non-clinical reason (and honestly, both of you trying to diagnose each other with cluster B personality disorders is a big smell in and of itself). It doesn't matter if there are some good times, some good qualities, if they are ultimately outweighed by the bad.
If it's not working then it's not working. If you have made a sincere effort to resolve your difficulties and still find that it's not working, it is not morally wrong to divorce. Even if you are responsible for 99% of the problems it is not wrong. It might cost you something to leave (financially, socially, emotionally, or all three) but that doesn't make it wrong either.
Here's a question to ask yourself: does this marriage support you being your better self?
posted by 4rtemis at 6:24 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
Hey it doesn't fundamentally matter if he is right about you, that doesn't mean you have to stay married to him.
I agree that your marriage as described is bad. Bad for you, bad for him, whatever.
Your kid's wellbeing should be a priority as you end things. But end them! It's not something that takes two people to decide.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 7:00 AM on January 8
I agree that your marriage as described is bad. Bad for you, bad for him, whatever.
Your kid's wellbeing should be a priority as you end things. But end them! It's not something that takes two people to decide.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 7:00 AM on January 8
Best answer: If you find yourself in a building in which the fire alarms are going off and you can see/feel/smell/hear all the symptoms of a fire, you don't stay inside to determine whether it was arson, a code violation, or an accident before leaving. You recognize the situation is untenable and you remove yourself and work with professionals to figure out the details afterwards.
Your relationship is bad and nobody should be in it anymore. Everyone needs to be evacuated.
Stop trying to do all this math. Decide to leave rather than trying to prove you should leave. Choose to leave, commit to that course of action, and focus on the exit signs. It doesn't matter if there's delicious cookies on the fifth floor, the building is on fire. It doesn't matter if some of the floors are really nicely furnished, the building is on fire. It doesn't even matter if you used an extension cord at your desk and that started the fire, you standing around hesitantly trying to find some office supplies to put out the fire is going to keep others from leaving, so please calmly make your way to a damn exit.
Oh, you're going to say, but what if it was just smoke that got sucked into the ventilation system and I was wrong about evacuating? What if the fire has ADHD? Well, the building's still got smoke damage and is an unhealthy environment. And you know what, lots of people have ADHD and we are still adults with agency who need to take care of our own damn business. Like, most of us might wish for an unstoppable productivity system that fixed everything for us, but most of us do not want and would not accept a mommy to treat us like widdle babies. Some of us have been broken up with absolutely appropriately because we couldn't handle ourselves and the critical aspects of a relationship at the same time, and we dealt with it and moved on.
Everybody's got their broken pieces and/or shitty childhoods and/or mental health issues and/or health problems. None of arrive perfectly-formed in relationships, but none of us are justified to expect or demand endless accommodation. Put your armchair psychiatry away, put your fake law degree away. Look at your relationship on the actualities of the situation, and recognize that it sucks, and choose to walk away.
When you choose, when you decide this needs to be done, without obfuscating with all this math, you reduce dependencies. There is a weird amount of relief in just deciding to be the Bad Guy, as well - you can sort it out later, but for right now when your brain and your manipulator are really leaning hard on the But You Don't Want To Be Bad button you can just say fuck it, fine, I'm the abuser here, therefore it's my obligation to leave this situation so it stops.
And there's always a voice going "but what if it was the wrong decision" and I'm going to tell you something shocking: relationships aren't THAT precious. I'm middle aged, so I know a lot of people with one or two or three pretty long-term relationships in their past. Some of them were decent relationships but there was stuff that was maybe surmountable but really really challenging - the demands of an academic career or other career pressures, one side's (or both sides') obligation (real or imagined) to family, and very very often just different diverging goals. I've also had a couple friends find themselves in situations where their spouse/partner just...decompensated, shockingly fast, into someone nobody recognized. A lot of shit happens in this world, and the fallout hits a lot of relationships.
And it turns out okay. Like, really often it turns out okay.
You're taking on so much of the burden of this relationship being bad. Are you afraid you might be okay if you left, and what would that do to your construct of your own identity? I think this particularly happens to people in abusive relationships because they have to grind so hard just to hold all the broken pieces up to the surface, they have to make up an apocalyptic future as the consequence if they let the pieces go. But what if you walked away, and did your recovery stuff, and then you were okay? It would mean all this effort was a waste. It's not, though, it's just hard lessons learned. We all have our share, and it is okay for you to have your share.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:08 AM on January 8 [32 favorites]
Your relationship is bad and nobody should be in it anymore. Everyone needs to be evacuated.
Stop trying to do all this math. Decide to leave rather than trying to prove you should leave. Choose to leave, commit to that course of action, and focus on the exit signs. It doesn't matter if there's delicious cookies on the fifth floor, the building is on fire. It doesn't matter if some of the floors are really nicely furnished, the building is on fire. It doesn't even matter if you used an extension cord at your desk and that started the fire, you standing around hesitantly trying to find some office supplies to put out the fire is going to keep others from leaving, so please calmly make your way to a damn exit.
Oh, you're going to say, but what if it was just smoke that got sucked into the ventilation system and I was wrong about evacuating? What if the fire has ADHD? Well, the building's still got smoke damage and is an unhealthy environment. And you know what, lots of people have ADHD and we are still adults with agency who need to take care of our own damn business. Like, most of us might wish for an unstoppable productivity system that fixed everything for us, but most of us do not want and would not accept a mommy to treat us like widdle babies. Some of us have been broken up with absolutely appropriately because we couldn't handle ourselves and the critical aspects of a relationship at the same time, and we dealt with it and moved on.
Everybody's got their broken pieces and/or shitty childhoods and/or mental health issues and/or health problems. None of arrive perfectly-formed in relationships, but none of us are justified to expect or demand endless accommodation. Put your armchair psychiatry away, put your fake law degree away. Look at your relationship on the actualities of the situation, and recognize that it sucks, and choose to walk away.
When you choose, when you decide this needs to be done, without obfuscating with all this math, you reduce dependencies. There is a weird amount of relief in just deciding to be the Bad Guy, as well - you can sort it out later, but for right now when your brain and your manipulator are really leaning hard on the But You Don't Want To Be Bad button you can just say fuck it, fine, I'm the abuser here, therefore it's my obligation to leave this situation so it stops.
And there's always a voice going "but what if it was the wrong decision" and I'm going to tell you something shocking: relationships aren't THAT precious. I'm middle aged, so I know a lot of people with one or two or three pretty long-term relationships in their past. Some of them were decent relationships but there was stuff that was maybe surmountable but really really challenging - the demands of an academic career or other career pressures, one side's (or both sides') obligation (real or imagined) to family, and very very often just different diverging goals. I've also had a couple friends find themselves in situations where their spouse/partner just...decompensated, shockingly fast, into someone nobody recognized. A lot of shit happens in this world, and the fallout hits a lot of relationships.
And it turns out okay. Like, really often it turns out okay.
You're taking on so much of the burden of this relationship being bad. Are you afraid you might be okay if you left, and what would that do to your construct of your own identity? I think this particularly happens to people in abusive relationships because they have to grind so hard just to hold all the broken pieces up to the surface, they have to make up an apocalyptic future as the consequence if they let the pieces go. But what if you walked away, and did your recovery stuff, and then you were okay? It would mean all this effort was a waste. It's not, though, it's just hard lessons learned. We all have our share, and it is okay for you to have your share.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:08 AM on January 8 [32 favorites]
If I ask him to leave now, legally I am responsible for his living expenses since he is not working [...] But it will be hard to find any peace from all of this if I can't stop ruminating on why it's all happening.
I want to add: sometimes ruminating is what happens when a situation remains static, and one way to stop ruminating about the same things over and over is to force yourself to change the situation. Find a good divorce lawyer who can both answer your questions and help you keep moving forward, extricate yourself from the marriage, and then feel free to ruminate about this stuff at your leisure, ideally with a personal therapist who can push back on your assumptions. But you might find, once your situation has changed and you have a new set of challenges and opportunities to think about, that ruminating will be less interesting and take up less and less of your time compared to the new things in your life.
posted by trig at 7:21 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
I want to add: sometimes ruminating is what happens when a situation remains static, and one way to stop ruminating about the same things over and over is to force yourself to change the situation. Find a good divorce lawyer who can both answer your questions and help you keep moving forward, extricate yourself from the marriage, and then feel free to ruminate about this stuff at your leisure, ideally with a personal therapist who can push back on your assumptions. But you might find, once your situation has changed and you have a new set of challenges and opportunities to think about, that ruminating will be less interesting and take up less and less of your time compared to the new things in your life.
posted by trig at 7:21 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
In the words of Cheryl Strayed, wanting to leave is enough. You do not need permission from us, your family, your husband or anyone else. If you want to leave you should leave. It's clear that you are not happy and that you want to leave -- I'll quote you to yourself: "One thing I am trying to do, for example, is when I get caught in whether the behavior is due to poor self esteem or shame issues or ADHD, or whether it is due to an antisocial personality, the results are the same. I need to get out regardless of why he is doing these things because I gave chances to change them and he didn't change them enough."
You don't have to win, you don't have to be right, you don't have to convince anyone. You can act on your own truth just because it is yours.
You might find therapy helpful in understanding your truth and making plans and learning skills to carry them out.
posted by OrangeDisk at 8:09 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
You don't have to win, you don't have to be right, you don't have to convince anyone. You can act on your own truth just because it is yours.
You might find therapy helpful in understanding your truth and making plans and learning skills to carry them out.
posted by OrangeDisk at 8:09 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
Drawing a bolder line here under not assuming the law. Do not choose not to leave or delay leaving because "you'll be responsible for his living expenses" unless YOUR lawyer - not a webpage, not a friend, not a rumor, not reddit - tells you that and there's simply no way you can make it work (which you tell the lawyer, also, so it can be figured out).
Oh but in a divorce this or that may happen - yes, it is very likely some things will happen. People figure it out all the time. You need to work with a lawyer on every step of this process, you have a volatile partner, it is your habit to try to control his moods and behavior and that's why you want to avoid a lawyer, and because it seems "mean" to use a lawyer. You have kids, you have a skewed financial situation, your partner is volatile, you need a lawyer and you need that lawyer BEFORE you make any moves toward leaving.
You also need your lawyer to tell you some hard truths as you plan your exit, like the fact that there's not going to be any child support. Remember that every time you want to make excuses about what a great parent he's been: what about that child support he avoids paying by somehow not being able to hold down a job?
posted by Lyn Never at 9:00 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
Oh but in a divorce this or that may happen - yes, it is very likely some things will happen. People figure it out all the time. You need to work with a lawyer on every step of this process, you have a volatile partner, it is your habit to try to control his moods and behavior and that's why you want to avoid a lawyer, and because it seems "mean" to use a lawyer. You have kids, you have a skewed financial situation, your partner is volatile, you need a lawyer and you need that lawyer BEFORE you make any moves toward leaving.
You also need your lawyer to tell you some hard truths as you plan your exit, like the fact that there's not going to be any child support. Remember that every time you want to make excuses about what a great parent he's been: what about that child support he avoids paying by somehow not being able to hold down a job?
posted by Lyn Never at 9:00 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: You also need your lawyer to tell you some hard truths as you plan your exit, like the fact that there's not going to be any child support.
Unfortunately, I don't need them to tell me this. I already know. The first time he lost a job, he did not take action to get his existing child support order modified. He owed five figures in arrears to his ex before I put my foot down and forced him to get a lawyer to fix it. This happened after I helped him write the simple letter that would have stopped the clock on the arrears while they worked on the case, and he gave me the impression he had mailed it in when he hadn't.
Since he lost the last job he is accumulating arrears again since he did not hire a lawyer to get the support order modified. And his parents have paid most of his child support to his ex over the years. So I already see the writing on the wall there.
He qualifies for Voc rehab and I have assisted him in getting it started twice now. Both times, I have also caught him in a lie related to pursuing the benefits available to him in Voc rehab to get another job more easily.
Someone side-eyed me throwing around cluster B theories but this is the sort of financial exploitation/irresponsibility that is part of the diagnostic criteria for antisocial personality. So... Shrug.
I appreciate all the feedback so far. Yes I understand that I can leave whether I accurately identify what's happening in our dynamic. But if he's actually a sociopath who is masking it well, then I need to approach divorce stuff differently than I do if he's a well-meaning but poorly functioning person. And I would also need to protect myself better in the meantime.
For example, if he is a sociopath, then I need to stop communicating about my unmet needs and expecting that to change anything. If that's the reality then I need to realize that he is hurting me on purpose, using me on purpose, so that I am not falling for pity plays and then harming myself in the short term by being too empathetic or in the long term by making too many concessions in a divorce negotiation.
posted by What a Joke at 9:30 AM on January 8
Unfortunately, I don't need them to tell me this. I already know. The first time he lost a job, he did not take action to get his existing child support order modified. He owed five figures in arrears to his ex before I put my foot down and forced him to get a lawyer to fix it. This happened after I helped him write the simple letter that would have stopped the clock on the arrears while they worked on the case, and he gave me the impression he had mailed it in when he hadn't.
Since he lost the last job he is accumulating arrears again since he did not hire a lawyer to get the support order modified. And his parents have paid most of his child support to his ex over the years. So I already see the writing on the wall there.
He qualifies for Voc rehab and I have assisted him in getting it started twice now. Both times, I have also caught him in a lie related to pursuing the benefits available to him in Voc rehab to get another job more easily.
Someone side-eyed me throwing around cluster B theories but this is the sort of financial exploitation/irresponsibility that is part of the diagnostic criteria for antisocial personality. So... Shrug.
I appreciate all the feedback so far. Yes I understand that I can leave whether I accurately identify what's happening in our dynamic. But if he's actually a sociopath who is masking it well, then I need to approach divorce stuff differently than I do if he's a well-meaning but poorly functioning person. And I would also need to protect myself better in the meantime.
For example, if he is a sociopath, then I need to stop communicating about my unmet needs and expecting that to change anything. If that's the reality then I need to realize that he is hurting me on purpose, using me on purpose, so that I am not falling for pity plays and then harming myself in the short term by being too empathetic or in the long term by making too many concessions in a divorce negotiation.
posted by What a Joke at 9:30 AM on January 8
Even if he’s not a sociopath, he’s unwilling (or unable and unwilling to address what’s making him unable) to meet your needs. For whatever reason, and I don’t know what it is but I don’t need to, he isn’t meeting your needs. You have knocked on this door. You have waited. You have peeked in the windows. You have tried to understand. The door isn’t going to open. You cannot diagnose this door in a way that will make it open. Diagnose him as closed to you.
posted by theotherdurassister at 9:57 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
posted by theotherdurassister at 9:57 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
Just assume he is a sociopath and act accordingly. It really won't be the end of the world if you do that and it turns out he really means well but is just useless. And frankly, if you, who know him best, can't tell the difference then I'm not sure it matters at this stage whether he is doing this on purpose or by accident.
You don't need a perfect divorce, you just need a divorce.
posted by plonkee at 10:22 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
You don't need a perfect divorce, you just need a divorce.
posted by plonkee at 10:22 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
You stop telling him about your unmet needs because you've told him about them again and again and he hasn't met them. You pack away your empathy because empathic explanations for his behavior have kept you trapped in a toxic dynamic for years and if you actually want to get out you can't afford that right now. You prepare yourself for a gnarly divorce because you have had an acrimonious marriage for years and because you know how it went the last time he had one. One doesn't have to be a sociopath to be at their worst during divorce proceedings. Pity plays can be genuine and still not be something it's wise for you to accommodate. Plan accordingly and protect yourself and your kid. You can ease up on certain things later if things settle, but you can't un-give concessions.
posted by wormtales at 10:35 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
posted by wormtales at 10:35 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
Do you have a domestic violence support organization in your area? A DV advocate can talk things through with you, support you, remind you that YOU are not the problem, help you make a plan for how to leave, and many other things. They aren't a replacement for a lawyer, but they can make the step of getting a lawyer much easier. You deserve support!
posted by epj at 11:02 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
posted by epj at 11:02 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
I think you should assume the worst and protect yourself accordingly. From your question history, he has a history of abusive behaviour to the point of causing you to feel physically intimidated. You are uncertain about how he could behave. You need not have more than that to justify being careful.
You should stop communicating about unmet needs regardless, because it is giving him opportunities to manipulate you. You say that this "man has fucked my mind up". You therefore know that your own feelings that you're at fault, you changing can fix things, and you are actually the abusive one for wanting to leave (!!) are suspicious, because they play exactly into his self-interest and arise directly from things he says.
You're focusing on this personality disorder and ADHD question, I assume, as a matter of trying to figure out his intent and moral fault. But regardless of intent or fault, it is undoubtable that he has manipulated you and it has benefited him. The very fact that so much of your energy is caught up in trying to puzzle him out plays to his advantage in sucking away your energy to make the decisions that are right for you. You do not owe him any more good faith engagement.
posted by lookoutbelow at 11:27 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
You should stop communicating about unmet needs regardless, because it is giving him opportunities to manipulate you. You say that this "man has fucked my mind up". You therefore know that your own feelings that you're at fault, you changing can fix things, and you are actually the abusive one for wanting to leave (!!) are suspicious, because they play exactly into his self-interest and arise directly from things he says.
You're focusing on this personality disorder and ADHD question, I assume, as a matter of trying to figure out his intent and moral fault. But regardless of intent or fault, it is undoubtable that he has manipulated you and it has benefited him. The very fact that so much of your energy is caught up in trying to puzzle him out plays to his advantage in sucking away your energy to make the decisions that are right for you. You do not owe him any more good faith engagement.
posted by lookoutbelow at 11:27 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
This stuff is hard, particularly not buying back into narratives that you once accepted.
The key for me was to write it down. The first thing on the list was always “IT DOES NOT MATTER WHY THINGS ARE HAPPENING” and then followed a list of “she is treating my abilities with contempt”, “she is acting surprised when I do things I have done consistently throughout our marriage”, “she is saying ‘we’ should do something with no follow-up and later blaming me for it not happening”, and perhaps the last one “she bit me in anger. Yes it really happened and yes it was in anger not a misguided attempt at playfulness.”
I had a lot of trouble holding those in my mind, and writing them down — and later knowing I had written them down when they happened and it wasn’t just a story I made up — was very useful when I started having doubts about what needed to be done.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:57 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
The key for me was to write it down. The first thing on the list was always “IT DOES NOT MATTER WHY THINGS ARE HAPPENING” and then followed a list of “she is treating my abilities with contempt”, “she is acting surprised when I do things I have done consistently throughout our marriage”, “she is saying ‘we’ should do something with no follow-up and later blaming me for it not happening”, and perhaps the last one “she bit me in anger. Yes it really happened and yes it was in anger not a misguided attempt at playfulness.”
I had a lot of trouble holding those in my mind, and writing them down — and later knowing I had written them down when they happened and it wasn’t just a story I made up — was very useful when I started having doubts about what needed to be done.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:57 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
Most of what he does to me that is messing me up isn't in the standard DV discussion as he is so smart that what he is doing is hard to detect and hard to articulate to anyone. But my family is crazy, and his family looks like an LL Bean catalogue. So that makes me think I really am the problem.
That second sentence stuck out to me. Another angle on it is that your lifetime of family experiences has trained you well to detect and respond to crazy shit, however subtle it may be. His family experience has trained him well to appear wholesome to observers despite objectively ugly facts like he can't even pay his child support without his parents' help.
You are not the problem here, and I would be inclined to frame your accurate perception and rejection of your situation as exercising a long dormant superpower, not a sign of some fatal weakness inherent in you. I wonder if he was the one who came up with that, twisting that strength into a weaknesses. Good luck.
posted by gueneverey at 3:22 PM on January 8 [3 favorites]
That second sentence stuck out to me. Another angle on it is that your lifetime of family experiences has trained you well to detect and respond to crazy shit, however subtle it may be. His family experience has trained him well to appear wholesome to observers despite objectively ugly facts like he can't even pay his child support without his parents' help.
You are not the problem here, and I would be inclined to frame your accurate perception and rejection of your situation as exercising a long dormant superpower, not a sign of some fatal weakness inherent in you. I wonder if he was the one who came up with that, twisting that strength into a weaknesses. Good luck.
posted by gueneverey at 3:22 PM on January 8 [3 favorites]
Because he has warped my mind so badly, I don't know what's true. Am I the abusive one as he's said?
if you believe for a single second that this could be true, you have to leave!
it is pretty clearly not true. but if you think it is, if you think it's even possible, then you have to get out. it's the only acceptable thing to do. if you think you're hurting him without even knowing it, you can't possibly stay and keep doing it. that's not just bad, it's wrong.
if he's abusing you, you have to leave. if you're abusing him, you have to leave. clarity may come eventually after you leave. it won't if you don't.
But what if this is really all my fault?
then you would have to take a step to make it right BY LEAVING.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:22 PM on January 8 [7 favorites]
if you believe for a single second that this could be true, you have to leave!
it is pretty clearly not true. but if you think it is, if you think it's even possible, then you have to get out. it's the only acceptable thing to do. if you think you're hurting him without even knowing it, you can't possibly stay and keep doing it. that's not just bad, it's wrong.
if he's abusing you, you have to leave. if you're abusing him, you have to leave. clarity may come eventually after you leave. it won't if you don't.
But what if this is really all my fault?
then you would have to take a step to make it right BY LEAVING.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:22 PM on January 8 [7 favorites]
>Yes I understand that I can leave whether I accurately identify what's happening in our dynamic.
Do you, though? Because then you say this:
>But if he's actually a sociopath who is masking it well, then I need to approach divorce stuff differently than I do if he's a well-meaning but poorly functioning person. And I would also need to protect myself better in the meantime.
You're still trying to do the math, figure him out and put a label on him. If this, then that.
>For example, if he is a sociopath, then I need to stop communicating about my unmet needs and expecting that to change anything. If that's the reality then I need to realize that he is hurting me on purpose, using me on purpose, so that I am not falling for pity plays and then harming myself in the short term by being too empathetic or in the long term by making too many concessions in a divorce negotiation.
You need to stop communicating your unmet needs expecting things to change, not because he might be a sociopath, but because things *won't* change. He's unwilling or incapable of change and the reasons don't matter because the outcome is the same: he's not meeting your needs.
>If that's the reality I need to realize that he is hurting me on purpose, using me on purpose
You're doing "If this, then that" again. He IS hurting you, he IS using you. Whether it's on purpose or not doesn't matter.
>so that I am not falling for pity plays and then harming myself in the short term by being too empathetic or in the long term by making too many concessions in a divorce negotiation.
It's sounds like you're trying to be nice or people please? Focus on impact, and outcomes. The impact is that he is hurting you, making you question what's real, if you're abusive, demanding too much or unreasonable things etc. etc. The outcome is that this marriage ends and you can focus even more on yourself and reflect on your life and choices. How to get there: like Lyn Never says, "Choose to leave, commit to that course of action, and focus on the exit signs."
Also I want to point out that you seem very wrapped up in the idea that something might be wrong with you, you're at fault, you're causing this, you're abusive. I know what that feels like. Like if you could just figure out what's wrong with you, where you're messing up, and be better, maybe things would improve. But this is a mirage. There's no one weird trick that will magically change things for the better. You can't turn this into a good marriage all by yourself. Choose yourself.
In addition, you also seemed wrapped up in the idea that he could be this awful person who is deliberately hurting and using you and you are scared of that being the reality. Like, how could such an awful person exist? How could you have been fooled? Why didn't you see the signs? How could you have chosen this person and made the wrong decision that you now have to live with? You want this possibility to not be true and so you're still trying to make things "ok" in your mind. E.g. he has ADHD and low self-esteem, he's not a sociopath and hurting you on purpose. The former is a "better" narrative to live with than the latter. Again, this doesn't matter: focus on impact and outcomes. Choose to leave, commit to that course of action, and focus on the exit signs.
>He pulls me back in eventually by being charming, kind and helpful.
Intermittent reinforcement. You may have seen Issendai's post on sick systems, if not, here it is. https://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html Note that she doesn't talk about WHY people do this. Because it doesn't matter. This is what a sick system looks like. Now that you know, and you recognize yourself as being in one, what are going to do? Keep participating in it, keep trying to change it single handedly, or get out?
posted by foxjacket at 9:11 PM on January 8 [5 favorites]
Do you, though? Because then you say this:
>But if he's actually a sociopath who is masking it well, then I need to approach divorce stuff differently than I do if he's a well-meaning but poorly functioning person. And I would also need to protect myself better in the meantime.
You're still trying to do the math, figure him out and put a label on him. If this, then that.
>For example, if he is a sociopath, then I need to stop communicating about my unmet needs and expecting that to change anything. If that's the reality then I need to realize that he is hurting me on purpose, using me on purpose, so that I am not falling for pity plays and then harming myself in the short term by being too empathetic or in the long term by making too many concessions in a divorce negotiation.
You need to stop communicating your unmet needs expecting things to change, not because he might be a sociopath, but because things *won't* change. He's unwilling or incapable of change and the reasons don't matter because the outcome is the same: he's not meeting your needs.
>If that's the reality I need to realize that he is hurting me on purpose, using me on purpose
You're doing "If this, then that" again. He IS hurting you, he IS using you. Whether it's on purpose or not doesn't matter.
>so that I am not falling for pity plays and then harming myself in the short term by being too empathetic or in the long term by making too many concessions in a divorce negotiation.
It's sounds like you're trying to be nice or people please? Focus on impact, and outcomes. The impact is that he is hurting you, making you question what's real, if you're abusive, demanding too much or unreasonable things etc. etc. The outcome is that this marriage ends and you can focus even more on yourself and reflect on your life and choices. How to get there: like Lyn Never says, "Choose to leave, commit to that course of action, and focus on the exit signs."
Also I want to point out that you seem very wrapped up in the idea that something might be wrong with you, you're at fault, you're causing this, you're abusive. I know what that feels like. Like if you could just figure out what's wrong with you, where you're messing up, and be better, maybe things would improve. But this is a mirage. There's no one weird trick that will magically change things for the better. You can't turn this into a good marriage all by yourself. Choose yourself.
In addition, you also seemed wrapped up in the idea that he could be this awful person who is deliberately hurting and using you and you are scared of that being the reality. Like, how could such an awful person exist? How could you have been fooled? Why didn't you see the signs? How could you have chosen this person and made the wrong decision that you now have to live with? You want this possibility to not be true and so you're still trying to make things "ok" in your mind. E.g. he has ADHD and low self-esteem, he's not a sociopath and hurting you on purpose. The former is a "better" narrative to live with than the latter. Again, this doesn't matter: focus on impact and outcomes. Choose to leave, commit to that course of action, and focus on the exit signs.
>He pulls me back in eventually by being charming, kind and helpful.
Intermittent reinforcement. You may have seen Issendai's post on sick systems, if not, here it is. https://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html Note that she doesn't talk about WHY people do this. Because it doesn't matter. This is what a sick system looks like. Now that you know, and you recognize yourself as being in one, what are going to do? Keep participating in it, keep trying to change it single handedly, or get out?
posted by foxjacket at 9:11 PM on January 8 [5 favorites]
He's gaslighting you - repeatedly. The book "Should I Stay or Should I Go: Surviving A Relationship with a Narcissist" would be an interesting and possibly helpful read for you. Blessings. Life doesn't have to be this hard.
posted by summerstorm at 10:13 PM on January 8 [2 favorites]
posted by summerstorm at 10:13 PM on January 8 [2 favorites]
Yes I understand that I can leave whether I accurately identify what's happening in our dynamic.
What I don’t think you understand is how little it matters why you are getting damaged.
If your relationship involved you being hit in the head with a stick repeatedly you would not be worried about why it was happening, you’d be getting yourself to a position where it wasn’t. It does not sound like you're honoring the amount of damage you are accumulating by staying where you are.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:58 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
What I don’t think you understand is how little it matters why you are getting damaged.
If your relationship involved you being hit in the head with a stick repeatedly you would not be worried about why it was happening, you’d be getting yourself to a position where it wasn’t. It does not sound like you're honoring the amount of damage you are accumulating by staying where you are.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:58 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
Assume he’s a sociopath. He may or may not be, but that way you’ll have all your ducks in a row for the worst case scenario. If he gets upset blame your lawyer and plead ignorance. Once you have a good, professional lawyer who is representing you fairly because it’s their job and you are legally entitled to it, a lot of these psychological questions will seem irrelevant or redundant.
posted by stockpuppet at 11:28 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
posted by stockpuppet at 11:28 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
For example, if he is a sociopath, then I need to stop communicating about my unmet needs and expecting that to change anything.
Don't see why you can't just stop doing this without having to figure out why things aren't changing first.
When you get a lawyer, be sure to go to a different lawyer than one he has used in the past.
You don't need to talk to him about how you are making an appointment with a lawyer - he's kept details from you about his legal situations before, so you shouldn't feel bad about keeping such things private yourself. You don't even need to have decided for sure if you want to divorce. You are just getting information from a professional. You aren't "deciding to leave", you are just getting information, it's not so different of a decision than asking questions on here you are just talking to someone with more ability to advise on your particular situation than us on the green.
posted by yohko at 1:47 PM on January 11
Don't see why you can't just stop doing this without having to figure out why things aren't changing first.
When you get a lawyer, be sure to go to a different lawyer than one he has used in the past.
You don't need to talk to him about how you are making an appointment with a lawyer - he's kept details from you about his legal situations before, so you shouldn't feel bad about keeping such things private yourself. You don't even need to have decided for sure if you want to divorce. You are just getting information from a professional. You aren't "deciding to leave", you are just getting information, it's not so different of a decision than asking questions on here you are just talking to someone with more ability to advise on your particular situation than us on the green.
posted by yohko at 1:47 PM on January 11
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My former spouse was very, very similar to yours and I had to get some basic facts down in writing--both in order to document my case for leaving, in case anybody needed to know, and to remind myself why I needed to get out for my own safety.
It was also useful in couples counseling (which is, of course, not recommended in situations like this) because I could say something like "we had a rough weekend," then read aloud from my note that this happened at 7:30 on Saturday, then he said this, then I said this, then he reacted like this--and he would verbally confirm to our counselor that that was an accurate version of events. This was massive in my sense of keeping some sanity during the time, when all of reality seemed up for debate.
And whatever his circumstances may be--any neurodivergence, narcissism, unemployment sociopathy, whatever--none of it is an excuse for treating you poorly. If he claims that he's "triggered" into any of these behaviors, please take it as the foolish nonsense that it is, because you are not responsible for his actions. Only he is.
posted by knotty knots at 12:14 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]