Can communication solve all problems?
January 4, 2024 6:59 AM
I, a woman in my late twenties, have been with my partner for a bit over a year. Our relationship felt great - not without its issues, but definitely worthwhile and heading somewhere serious - until my parents expressed a great deal of concern about how I am being treated after spending a lot of time with us during the holidays.
My parents are loving, caring and typically reasonable, though careful and suspicious by nature. I am able to dismiss some of their concerns as differences in preferences and values between them and myself. However, they also make some good points, which make me worry about the future of this relationship.
My most significant concern is that my boyfriend has very strong preferences and is very a smooth, eloquent and convincing communicator. As someone who tends toward people-pleasing and peace-keeping, I often give in, even after expressing my own preferences. It feels like we “communicate” a lot - a good thing, right? - but in the end, I am the one who eventually folds and makes sacrifices for the relationship. This happens for trivial and important decisions alike. For example, during the summer, my boyfriend was busy with work (fair) and various social and leisure engagements (less fair - I expressed a wish for him to prioritize of our time together - he was okay with not seeing each other for more than a week, when we live close to each other). We had many discussions, but the ultimate solution was for me to temporarily move in with him to get my own needs for quality time met. At the time, compromising seemed to be the most sensible solution, but looking back, the limited decision set I felt I had was perhaps the real issue. I still have the option to opt-out, to not change anything about the way I live my life, but if we add marriage, property and children to the mix, the decision set will truly become limited.
This is a dynamic I see among his family members as well: wives/girlfriends sacrifice a lot for the man to pursue his dreams, but I haven’t seen equivalent sacrifices from the men. More generally, I don’t appreciate the way his father treats his mother - I see mean jabs and dismissals of her needs, preferences and boundaries. Both my partner and his father appear to have issues respecting their partners’ boundaries. I am scared that our relationship is heading this way - little jokes that may seem funny now might turn into something more insidious. I already feel like I have to be very assertive and escalate things to having a ~very serious conversation~ (as opposed to a more casual, in-the-moment “okay, this is funny this one time, but please don’t do it again”) for my boundaries to be understood and respected. I don't think it should be this exhausting. My partner's mother has claimed that he has a similar mean streak to his father and that I haven't really seen the extent of it yet. She's concerned that we will break up when I see it and, to be frank, I'm not sure I care to ever see it.
My partner is always very keen to communicate and has always stated that he cares about me deeply and wants to do whatever work is required for me to be happy, which is one of the things that drew me to him. This willingness to work together is also why I am taking notice of these dynamics only now, with the input of my parents. I can’t help but feel like much of this communication is window-dressing. I don’t know that this is an intentional manipulation strategy, but perhaps something inherited from his family. His father is similarly a believer in putting tons of work into self-improvement and discussing things at length, but if that really worked as he claims, wouldn’t he be a little nicer to his wife?
I have a role to play in this as well - I do have a tendency to people-please, to put my head in the sand, to ignore red-flags and to tell myself that everything is great. I’ve discussed some of these concerns with my partner and he was shocked and frustrated that this was coming up months later and through the influence of my parents, but also expressed his ever-present willingness to communicate more and work through things. He feels like he is making sacrifices as well. I’m not sure how much of this issue is really solvable through work and communication, since we have been running into it since the beginning of our relationship. Is it my fault for not being assertive enough? Is it his fault for not listening to my needs more and not being more self-sacrificing? Is it just a personality mismatch? Is there something more insidious going on? I am looking for input because I lack relationship experience and I'm not entirely sure what are "normal" issues and compromises, as I feel like my parents, who are very similar to each other in many ways, might have an atypically symbiotic, relatively conflict-free marriage.
My parents are loving, caring and typically reasonable, though careful and suspicious by nature. I am able to dismiss some of their concerns as differences in preferences and values between them and myself. However, they also make some good points, which make me worry about the future of this relationship.
My most significant concern is that my boyfriend has very strong preferences and is very a smooth, eloquent and convincing communicator. As someone who tends toward people-pleasing and peace-keeping, I often give in, even after expressing my own preferences. It feels like we “communicate” a lot - a good thing, right? - but in the end, I am the one who eventually folds and makes sacrifices for the relationship. This happens for trivial and important decisions alike. For example, during the summer, my boyfriend was busy with work (fair) and various social and leisure engagements (less fair - I expressed a wish for him to prioritize of our time together - he was okay with not seeing each other for more than a week, when we live close to each other). We had many discussions, but the ultimate solution was for me to temporarily move in with him to get my own needs for quality time met. At the time, compromising seemed to be the most sensible solution, but looking back, the limited decision set I felt I had was perhaps the real issue. I still have the option to opt-out, to not change anything about the way I live my life, but if we add marriage, property and children to the mix, the decision set will truly become limited.
This is a dynamic I see among his family members as well: wives/girlfriends sacrifice a lot for the man to pursue his dreams, but I haven’t seen equivalent sacrifices from the men. More generally, I don’t appreciate the way his father treats his mother - I see mean jabs and dismissals of her needs, preferences and boundaries. Both my partner and his father appear to have issues respecting their partners’ boundaries. I am scared that our relationship is heading this way - little jokes that may seem funny now might turn into something more insidious. I already feel like I have to be very assertive and escalate things to having a ~very serious conversation~ (as opposed to a more casual, in-the-moment “okay, this is funny this one time, but please don’t do it again”) for my boundaries to be understood and respected. I don't think it should be this exhausting. My partner's mother has claimed that he has a similar mean streak to his father and that I haven't really seen the extent of it yet. She's concerned that we will break up when I see it and, to be frank, I'm not sure I care to ever see it.
My partner is always very keen to communicate and has always stated that he cares about me deeply and wants to do whatever work is required for me to be happy, which is one of the things that drew me to him. This willingness to work together is also why I am taking notice of these dynamics only now, with the input of my parents. I can’t help but feel like much of this communication is window-dressing. I don’t know that this is an intentional manipulation strategy, but perhaps something inherited from his family. His father is similarly a believer in putting tons of work into self-improvement and discussing things at length, but if that really worked as he claims, wouldn’t he be a little nicer to his wife?
I have a role to play in this as well - I do have a tendency to people-please, to put my head in the sand, to ignore red-flags and to tell myself that everything is great. I’ve discussed some of these concerns with my partner and he was shocked and frustrated that this was coming up months later and through the influence of my parents, but also expressed his ever-present willingness to communicate more and work through things. He feels like he is making sacrifices as well. I’m not sure how much of this issue is really solvable through work and communication, since we have been running into it since the beginning of our relationship. Is it my fault for not being assertive enough? Is it his fault for not listening to my needs more and not being more self-sacrificing? Is it just a personality mismatch? Is there something more insidious going on? I am looking for input because I lack relationship experience and I'm not entirely sure what are "normal" issues and compromises, as I feel like my parents, who are very similar to each other in many ways, might have an atypically symbiotic, relatively conflict-free marriage.
More generally, I don’t appreciate the way his father treats his mother - I see mean jabs and dismissals of her needs, preferences and boundaries. Both my partner and his father appear to have issues respecting their partners’ boundaries. I am scared that our relationship is heading this way - little jokes that may seem funny now might turn into something more insidious.
Your boyfriend was raised in an environment where this behavior was okay, so he has picked it up and done it with you. That does not mean that it is okay. The fact that you're able to see this in his parents' relationship and now in yours and can identify multiple examples of it makes me very wary. It's great that you're bringing it up to him and he's willing to discuss it, but as you said, the fact that it's on you to have to raise this to him over and over is exhausting and it's not fair to you – and neither is the initial behavior itself, which sounds unpleasant at best and misogynistic and abusive at worst.
I say "abusive" here because I've experienced similar things in my family (not with a partner) and it took me a very long time to use that word because it didn't feel like it was "that bad." This kind of behavior is not okay and is not how a loving, caring, kind partner treats their equal.
The fact that your parents identified this behavior and spoke with you about it after presumably a pretty small amount of time spent with the two of you – even if they are perhaps overly cautious people – indicates to me that it must be pretty distressing and noticeable to others.
As a person who's now in my late thirties and spent a lot of time trying to "fix" men that I dated in my twenties: no, things should not be this hard; no, this is not okay behavior; and no, this is not something that you (or he) will be able to make better, imho, without therapy. That said, I give you permission to walk away from this relationship because it's not working for you.
posted by anotheraccount at 7:22 AM on January 4
Your boyfriend was raised in an environment where this behavior was okay, so he has picked it up and done it with you. That does not mean that it is okay. The fact that you're able to see this in his parents' relationship and now in yours and can identify multiple examples of it makes me very wary. It's great that you're bringing it up to him and he's willing to discuss it, but as you said, the fact that it's on you to have to raise this to him over and over is exhausting and it's not fair to you – and neither is the initial behavior itself, which sounds unpleasant at best and misogynistic and abusive at worst.
I say "abusive" here because I've experienced similar things in my family (not with a partner) and it took me a very long time to use that word because it didn't feel like it was "that bad." This kind of behavior is not okay and is not how a loving, caring, kind partner treats their equal.
The fact that your parents identified this behavior and spoke with you about it after presumably a pretty small amount of time spent with the two of you – even if they are perhaps overly cautious people – indicates to me that it must be pretty distressing and noticeable to others.
As a person who's now in my late thirties and spent a lot of time trying to "fix" men that I dated in my twenties: no, things should not be this hard; no, this is not okay behavior; and no, this is not something that you (or he) will be able to make better, imho, without therapy. That said, I give you permission to walk away from this relationship because it's not working for you.
posted by anotheraccount at 7:22 AM on January 4
Obviously it's hard for me to tell what's really going on from a short description like that, because it's so easy to interpret things through your own personal filter, but your partner kind of sounds like me, especially when you say this:
I already feel like I have to be very assertive and escalate things to having a ~very serious conversation~ (as opposed to a more casual, in-the-moment “okay, this is funny this one time, but please don’t do it again”) for my boundaries to be understood and respected. I don't think it should be this exhausting.
For me, being very assertive and escalating things to a serious conversation is easy. What’s exhausting is to try to pretend to be casual and in the moment when you’re defending a boundary, and from the other side, to hear someone say something that sounds casual and remember to interpret it as a serious boundary defense.
In terms of his father’s meanness, I would have to have concrete examples to comment on that.
It sounds like a personality mismatch, but I don't have enough information to tell you whether it's the kind you should break up over or the kind where you should stay together and learn from each other.
posted by wheatlets at 7:25 AM on January 4
I already feel like I have to be very assertive and escalate things to having a ~very serious conversation~ (as opposed to a more casual, in-the-moment “okay, this is funny this one time, but please don’t do it again”) for my boundaries to be understood and respected. I don't think it should be this exhausting.
For me, being very assertive and escalating things to a serious conversation is easy. What’s exhausting is to try to pretend to be casual and in the moment when you’re defending a boundary, and from the other side, to hear someone say something that sounds casual and remember to interpret it as a serious boundary defense.
In terms of his father’s meanness, I would have to have concrete examples to comment on that.
It sounds like a personality mismatch, but I don't have enough information to tell you whether it's the kind you should break up over or the kind where you should stay together and learn from each other.
posted by wheatlets at 7:25 AM on January 4
Discussing things at length might be good if it means you’re plumbing the depths of an issue so you can really understand each other and find solutions that work for both of you. But if it means he’s a big believer in talking until he’s convinced you of his rightness, worn you down and gotten you to accept what he wants, at your own expense, that’s no virtue.
Regardless of whether it’s most accurately described as misbehavior for which blame can be assigned, or a simple personality mismatch, the dynamic you’ve described sounds like a recipe for misery.
posted by jon1270 at 7:26 AM on January 4
Regardless of whether it’s most accurately described as misbehavior for which blame can be assigned, or a simple personality mismatch, the dynamic you’ve described sounds like a recipe for misery.
posted by jon1270 at 7:26 AM on January 4
I'm really surprised at some of these answers. Isn't human variety... wonderful?
I read what you say here:
My partner's mother has claimed that he has a similar mean streak to his father and that I haven't really seen the extent of it yet.
and here:
a believer in putting tons of work into self-improvement and discussing things at length, but if that really worked as he claims, wouldn’t he be a little nicer to his wife?
and here:
My partner is always very keen to communicate
and it's obvious to me that these are both men who overcommunicate precisely because it is a tool they use to steamroll their partners. They see that with enough talk they can make you stop complaining about their actions, and so they love to talk. This type of dude is also in love with the sound of his own voice - but more than that, he's in love with how it lets him win, while still posing as a "communicator."
You don't want to be married to this. Your guy's mom is doing you a big solid by telling you so.
ETA - don't go to THERAPY with this, jfc. You'll waste so much money hearing more talk talk talk from the guy. Actions are all that matters here, not more talking.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:39 AM on January 4
I read what you say here:
My partner's mother has claimed that he has a similar mean streak to his father and that I haven't really seen the extent of it yet.
and here:
a believer in putting tons of work into self-improvement and discussing things at length, but if that really worked as he claims, wouldn’t he be a little nicer to his wife?
and here:
My partner is always very keen to communicate
and it's obvious to me that these are both men who overcommunicate precisely because it is a tool they use to steamroll their partners. They see that with enough talk they can make you stop complaining about their actions, and so they love to talk. This type of dude is also in love with the sound of his own voice - but more than that, he's in love with how it lets him win, while still posing as a "communicator."
You don't want to be married to this. Your guy's mom is doing you a big solid by telling you so.
ETA - don't go to THERAPY with this, jfc. You'll waste so much money hearing more talk talk talk from the guy. Actions are all that matters here, not more talking.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:39 AM on January 4
Your parents are worried which might be overprotectiveness, but one of *his* parents is also worried which is a red flag so big it can be seen from space.
It shouldn't be this exhausting. You shouldn't have to convince him to respect your boundaries. You shouldn't have to convince him to respect you.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:43 AM on January 4
It shouldn't be this exhausting. You shouldn't have to convince him to respect your boundaries. You shouldn't have to convince him to respect you.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:43 AM on January 4
His mother is warning you against him. That seems like a big deal, assuming she's not abusive to him.
John Gottman, the relationship therapist and researcher, has said that a predictor of happiness in mixed-sex relationships is the man deferring to the woman often -- because woman so often defer to their male partners that that's a given, but the reverse needs to also be there. If it's this unbalanced now, it seems unlikely to get better.
And yes, you should work on your people pleasing if that's also a thing, but his taking advantage of your kindness is not your fault. This is not your problem to fix, or one you should be taking all the blame for.
posted by lapis at 7:46 AM on January 4
John Gottman, the relationship therapist and researcher, has said that a predictor of happiness in mixed-sex relationships is the man deferring to the woman often -- because woman so often defer to their male partners that that's a given, but the reverse needs to also be there. If it's this unbalanced now, it seems unlikely to get better.
And yes, you should work on your people pleasing if that's also a thing, but his taking advantage of your kindness is not your fault. This is not your problem to fix, or one you should be taking all the blame for.
posted by lapis at 7:46 AM on January 4
I agree that his behavior could well be “talking until he wears you out/convinces you” rather than actual discussion/communication - which would involve listening to you and taking your needs into account too.
I also think that if his own mother is warning you that you haven’t seen the worst of him, that’s definitely worth paying attention to.
posted by 2 cats in the yard at 7:47 AM on January 4
I also think that if his own mother is warning you that you haven’t seen the worst of him, that’s definitely worth paying attention to.
posted by 2 cats in the yard at 7:47 AM on January 4
Communication isn't an unalloyed good. It sounds like he might be using a lot of communication to seem reasonable while limiting the scope of the discussion, and/or playing for time. Maybe even using therapy-adjacent language to limit your willingness to express your emotions? Or set boundaries for himself that are more like ultimatums? It's not 100% clear that is what is happening, but if that sounds familiar, those are all red flags. You might want to consider writing stuff down for yourself before you talk with him to keep a record you can look back on. It will also help avoid attempts to reframe the issues, or outright gaslight you. Maybe even consider having some of these bigger discussions in writing so that you can take your time to respond without some of the pressure to accept false dilemmas.
(Also, just rhetorically, I would focus on your partner, not his parents or yours. You have valid concerns without bringing them into it, and you'll have an easier time talking to him without mentioning them. Framing your concerns as their meddling or interference it's an easy level for him to pull.)
posted by Garm at 7:55 AM on January 4
(Also, just rhetorically, I would focus on your partner, not his parents or yours. You have valid concerns without bringing them into it, and you'll have an easier time talking to him without mentioning them. Framing your concerns as their meddling or interference it's an easy level for him to pull.)
posted by Garm at 7:55 AM on January 4
Popping back in to point out also that you should not discount your parents' input either. They know a lot about what makes marriage work, right? You described them as "relatively conflict-free", but that's what you've seen from the outside. You can bet that in a long term marriage they've had plenty of stuff to work out; and they've apparently learned how to do it well. And they are cautious -- do you think they weren't worried about offending you? Of course they were. But they were concerned enough to tell you what they see anyway, adult to adult. Hear them.
Listen, I put down my coffee and went back into the other room where the logged in MeFi window is, to say this to you. Listen to your parents, listen to his mother, see with your eyes what this behavior looks like down the line and think about how it would be to be subordinated to it forever by children and property. Don't lay yourself down on this altar.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:57 AM on January 4
Listen, I put down my coffee and went back into the other room where the logged in MeFi window is, to say this to you. Listen to your parents, listen to his mother, see with your eyes what this behavior looks like down the line and think about how it would be to be subordinated to it forever by children and property. Don't lay yourself down on this altar.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:57 AM on January 4
I have a very strong personality and my boyfriend is very easygoing. So I frequently stop and encourage him to make sure he actually wants x or is excited about y or is happy to do z and not just going along to get along. This is very easy for me to do, because I care about him and want him to have his needs met. I may like to get my way, but I'm emotionally competent enough to know that 2 people need to be happy in a partnership. It is the most basic and simple things I can do.
Ask yourself honestly if you think this guy has this level of consideration for you. Because I promise you it's not hard. If he can't ask you what you want and meet you there, he's being lazy and an ass.
posted by phunniemee at 8:02 AM on January 4
Ask yourself honestly if you think this guy has this level of consideration for you. Because I promise you it's not hard. If he can't ask you what you want and meet you there, he's being lazy and an ass.
posted by phunniemee at 8:02 AM on January 4
I agree that the biggest red flag here is that his own mother is warning you off!
While I'm not encouraging you to thread sit, I think if you provide us with 1-2 concrete examples of either a "joke" he's said or something he's done that bothers you, you'll get more concrete answers from us. While I am inclined to take his own mother at her word, it's hard to really grasp your relationship dynamics from what you've written.
Also: I don't think it should be this exhausting.
At around a year, you should still be in the honeymoon phase, or at least close to it. If you find the relationship exhausting now, it will very likely not get better in a few years.
What do your friends think of this guy/your relationship? If they also find his behavior towards you concerning, that's another red flag.
posted by coffeecat at 8:32 AM on January 4
While I'm not encouraging you to thread sit, I think if you provide us with 1-2 concrete examples of either a "joke" he's said or something he's done that bothers you, you'll get more concrete answers from us. While I am inclined to take his own mother at her word, it's hard to really grasp your relationship dynamics from what you've written.
Also: I don't think it should be this exhausting.
At around a year, you should still be in the honeymoon phase, or at least close to it. If you find the relationship exhausting now, it will very likely not get better in a few years.
What do your friends think of this guy/your relationship? If they also find his behavior towards you concerning, that's another red flag.
posted by coffeecat at 8:32 AM on January 4
he was shocked and frustrated that this was coming up months later ... I already feel like I have to be very assertive and escalate things
A charitable interpretation is that he understands that something is truly important to you only when you express it extremely strongly and directly. If so, you may have a communication disconnect in the sense that the type of communication that he requires from you is one that you find difficult and stressful.
Is it his fault for not listening to my needs more and not being more self-sacrificing? Is it my fault for not being assertive enough?... I lack relationship experience and I'm not entirely sure what are "normal" issues and compromises,
Relationships are not true/false tests. The question is not whether you or he is "right," or if something is "normal." The question is whether you are suited for each other. There are millions of perfectly decent people who I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with, and there are plenty of aspects of my happy relationship that aren't "normal." If he won't adjust to your needs in response to your normal mode of communication, and you won't be happy if you have to constantly escalate things, the two of you are not suited for each other.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:42 AM on January 4
A charitable interpretation is that he understands that something is truly important to you only when you express it extremely strongly and directly. If so, you may have a communication disconnect in the sense that the type of communication that he requires from you is one that you find difficult and stressful.
Is it his fault for not listening to my needs more and not being more self-sacrificing? Is it my fault for not being assertive enough?... I lack relationship experience and I'm not entirely sure what are "normal" issues and compromises,
Relationships are not true/false tests. The question is not whether you or he is "right," or if something is "normal." The question is whether you are suited for each other. There are millions of perfectly decent people who I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with, and there are plenty of aspects of my happy relationship that aren't "normal." If he won't adjust to your needs in response to your normal mode of communication, and you won't be happy if you have to constantly escalate things, the two of you are not suited for each other.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:42 AM on January 4
I want to highlight the part where you say that you're worried that his priorities will always come first. If you have ambitions and plans for your life that conflict with "marry, move for his work, have the number of kids he wants" you should be thinking about this very carefully.
I'm married to a man, and my partner and I have moved for his work and for mine. We've both pursued grad school; I left to do my MA and we were long-distance for a few years, then we moved for his PhD and I was underemployed for several years while he was doing coursework. When I got a good job we moved and he did the reverse commute for teaching. Now we live where his job is and I work remotely. On balance, I feel like we are both considerate of our careers and goals and how they affect our lives. We're also lucky that my job was ok with me going remote, since I still make more money than he does. We're lucky that his one-year visiting gig has become a tenure-track position (the dream, right???) We've been lucky with child-care and school options that allow both of us ample time for work.
I don't want to say I'm lucky to have a male partner who respects my work and my time, that should be the absolute low bar. But I do have to acknowledge that it doesn't seem to be the norm. It's important to me! If it's important to you too I really encourage you to assess this partnership through that lens.
I'm leaving all the other stuff aside, as many other comments have addressed it.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 8:45 AM on January 4
I'm married to a man, and my partner and I have moved for his work and for mine. We've both pursued grad school; I left to do my MA and we were long-distance for a few years, then we moved for his PhD and I was underemployed for several years while he was doing coursework. When I got a good job we moved and he did the reverse commute for teaching. Now we live where his job is and I work remotely. On balance, I feel like we are both considerate of our careers and goals and how they affect our lives. We're also lucky that my job was ok with me going remote, since I still make more money than he does. We're lucky that his one-year visiting gig has become a tenure-track position (the dream, right???) We've been lucky with child-care and school options that allow both of us ample time for work.
I don't want to say I'm lucky to have a male partner who respects my work and my time, that should be the absolute low bar. But I do have to acknowledge that it doesn't seem to be the norm. It's important to me! If it's important to you too I really encourage you to assess this partnership through that lens.
I'm leaving all the other stuff aside, as many other comments have addressed it.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 8:45 AM on January 4
My mother was a people-pleaser who married a man with strong preferences and a strong belief in his own reasonableness. Her happiness was rarely his priority. She ended up isolated and unhappy.
It wasn't anyone's fault really - just the result of decades of decisions where she prioritized their relationship and he prioritized the reasonable thing to do. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish she had prioritized herself much more and much sooner, even if that wasn't the most sensible or efficient thing.
posted by mersen at 9:03 AM on January 4
It wasn't anyone's fault really - just the result of decades of decisions where she prioritized their relationship and he prioritized the reasonable thing to do. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish she had prioritized herself much more and much sooner, even if that wasn't the most sensible or efficient thing.
posted by mersen at 9:03 AM on January 4
No, communication is not a panacea. But also, what you describe ISN'T equitable communication so no, that's the problem not the fix. Your dude is ALL talk, he makes nice sounds, and that's IT. Very little action. It's all veneer.
I don't think it should be this exhausting.
It should not be. You wrote a whole post that sounds like you're trying to talk yourself into not ending this, and it's not very convincing. You know what you should do.
Like others have said above, I'm the strong personality in my relationship. And I absolutely HAVE bulldozed people in ways that I really dislike now that I actually understand how to operate this heavy equipment, and I promise you that acting that way cultivates contempt - you can't really help it. He can't do this to you without thinking less of you, and that only grows over time.
I have to check myself with my husband, and THAT is and should be the hard work, me wrangling my own shit to be a good and equitable partner, not HIM having to try to wrangle me. He's got his own part in this that is his own work - he does have to speak up when I give him space to do so, it's not fair to me to people-please so hard he hides stuff from me, but it's important to me that I am listening hard and don't need him to put up a billboard before I hear him.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:09 AM on January 4
I don't think it should be this exhausting.
It should not be. You wrote a whole post that sounds like you're trying to talk yourself into not ending this, and it's not very convincing. You know what you should do.
Like others have said above, I'm the strong personality in my relationship. And I absolutely HAVE bulldozed people in ways that I really dislike now that I actually understand how to operate this heavy equipment, and I promise you that acting that way cultivates contempt - you can't really help it. He can't do this to you without thinking less of you, and that only grows over time.
I have to check myself with my husband, and THAT is and should be the hard work, me wrangling my own shit to be a good and equitable partner, not HIM having to try to wrangle me. He's got his own part in this that is his own work - he does have to speak up when I give him space to do so, it's not fair to me to people-please so hard he hides stuff from me, but it's important to me that I am listening hard and don't need him to put up a billboard before I hear him.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:09 AM on January 4
Please be really, really attentive to this seemingly hereditary "mean streak" that his mom describes. Especially if you notice how it shows up in his dad's behavior towards his mom.
If he is mean to you, and you let him know you're hurt, and he doesn't immediately do everything in his power to fix it and never do it again, that's all you need to know about this dynamic. And couples therapy will make it worse.
Also agree that the one year-ish mark of a relationship should be a pretty easy time. If this is a net negative in your life (in terms of the stress, effort, mental space it's costing you vs. the benefit of his company), this is a great moment to exit before you're further entangled.
posted by knotty knots at 9:10 AM on January 4
If he is mean to you, and you let him know you're hurt, and he doesn't immediately do everything in his power to fix it and never do it again, that's all you need to know about this dynamic. And couples therapy will make it worse.
Also agree that the one year-ish mark of a relationship should be a pretty easy time. If this is a net negative in your life (in terms of the stress, effort, mental space it's costing you vs. the benefit of his company), this is a great moment to exit before you're further entangled.
posted by knotty knots at 9:10 AM on January 4
I read the description of your interactions with this man and it reminded me a lot of me and my ex-husband. Whose fault it might be is not the point. It's a mismatch, you seem to be aware of it, and if you want to marry, you should look for a person who's an absolute, unqualified yes.
What broke my marriage in the long run was exactly the issue you describe: he talked a good game about following my dreams, but when I burned out of grad school, he was pleased that he didn't have to give up his position at NASA to go with me, and kept telling me it was a good thing that I'd given up my professional ambition so he could achieve his. I'm happy with where I ended up now, 25+ years on, but it took me a long time to get here and being told how great it was that I burned out on my goals didn't help.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:22 AM on January 4
What broke my marriage in the long run was exactly the issue you describe: he talked a good game about following my dreams, but when I burned out of grad school, he was pleased that he didn't have to give up his position at NASA to go with me, and kept telling me it was a good thing that I'd given up my professional ambition so he could achieve his. I'm happy with where I ended up now, 25+ years on, but it took me a long time to get here and being told how great it was that I burned out on my goals didn't help.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:22 AM on January 4
Ohhh girl. His own mother told you he has a mean streak??? LISTEN TO HER. She knows her son and if she has enough clarity to be able to separate her love for her child from the actual not-great human being he is, and tell you so, LISTEN TO HER. She has seen some things he's done to other women and is doing you a kindness by giving you this info. Be done with him.
posted by tatiana wishbone at 9:38 AM on January 4
posted by tatiana wishbone at 9:38 AM on January 4
He's not displaying an actual willingness to work together, he's just paying lipservice to the idea of communication and compromise being good. Your one concrete example of moving into his house to get "quality time" doesn't seem like a compromise to me. He gave up nothing, you literally moved, in order to be able to see him over the summer. Is it quality time if they're working full time and only seeing you before/after bed and in between social engagements? What else did you give up besides your routine and home? Did you take up cooking and cleaning his apartment during this time as well?
You say you weren't forced, but it sounds a little bit like an ultimatum, "well you aren't going to see me this summer unless you move in!"
His shock and frustration don't surprise me at all, and his "willingness" to verbally steamroll any problems you bring up into the future doesn't impress me. It doesn't really matter who's wrong here unless you want to be trapped in a relationship where your concerns don't matter and are met with heavy "communication" that is exhausting and ends with false "compromises" that don't satisfy you.
Be grateful that his mother and your own parents are warning you now, when it's easy to get out, which is what you should do as soon as possible.
posted by love2potato at 9:41 AM on January 4
You say you weren't forced, but it sounds a little bit like an ultimatum, "well you aren't going to see me this summer unless you move in!"
His shock and frustration don't surprise me at all, and his "willingness" to verbally steamroll any problems you bring up into the future doesn't impress me. It doesn't really matter who's wrong here unless you want to be trapped in a relationship where your concerns don't matter and are met with heavy "communication" that is exhausting and ends with false "compromises" that don't satisfy you.
Be grateful that his mother and your own parents are warning you now, when it's easy to get out, which is what you should do as soon as possible.
posted by love2potato at 9:41 AM on January 4
When a mother says her son's a mean asshole, believe her.
I don't think it should be this exhausting.
Nope, it shouldn't.
Also, look. I ended a relationship a few years ago and in the ensuing years, basically every single person who knew us has said something like, "I never liked the way he treated you" or "that relationship just seemed so hard," or "you never seemed like yourself around him." The most heartbreaking was a friend who only knew me in the context of that relationship. We met up for drinks about a year after the breakup, and she said "wow, I guess I didn't really know that there was like a whole happy person underneath all of that until now!"
I thought I was "making conscious choices" and "deciding to make it work" and all of that because that's what adults do. Literally any person giving me a heads-up that that isn't what happy love looks like -- it would have been a gift. Your (and his) parents are giving you a gift!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:42 AM on January 4
I don't think it should be this exhausting.
Nope, it shouldn't.
Also, look. I ended a relationship a few years ago and in the ensuing years, basically every single person who knew us has said something like, "I never liked the way he treated you" or "that relationship just seemed so hard," or "you never seemed like yourself around him." The most heartbreaking was a friend who only knew me in the context of that relationship. We met up for drinks about a year after the breakup, and she said "wow, I guess I didn't really know that there was like a whole happy person underneath all of that until now!"
I thought I was "making conscious choices" and "deciding to make it work" and all of that because that's what adults do. Literally any person giving me a heads-up that that isn't what happy love looks like -- it would have been a gift. Your (and his) parents are giving you a gift!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:42 AM on January 4
Advocating for your needs in this relationship is exhausting you, and your partner doesn’t seem to be exhausted from getting his needs met. Without casting any blame or looking at the advice from others, that alone doesn’t sound like a fulfilling long-term match to me.
posted by tchemgrrl at 9:45 AM on January 4
posted by tchemgrrl at 9:45 AM on January 4
Oh also also. My ex was not a bad guy! Still isn't. We were just very bad together. We brought out the worst in each other. We had so many things in common ... and those things had zero bearing on whether our relationship was happy and fulfilling and good for us. We were very alike in a lot of ways and also a romantic mismatch.
If you're looking for fault or insidious evil because you think that's the bar you have to clear for a breakup, it isn't! The bar for breakups is on the floor. The bar is "because."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:47 AM on January 4
If you're looking for fault or insidious evil because you think that's the bar you have to clear for a breakup, it isn't! The bar for breakups is on the floor. The bar is "because."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:47 AM on January 4
Oh yeah, about the one-year thing: you're supposed to treat the early stages of a relationship as a weeding-out period, you didn't get married on the first date. At around the 9-12 month point, you should either have already broken up because you discovered incompatibilities with no clear path to resolution, or you should be in a pretty great place with few non-external (as in interpersonal issues rather than career, where/how to live, financial goals etc) concerns.
Or it's time to do some soul-searching, but from a perspective of "have I built the relationship I want" rather than "can I fix this broken thing".
This is where you may have to realize you have your own stuff you need to go work on, single, rather than bringing it into the foundation of a relationship. You do not say "this mediocre relationship IS partially my fault so I should just stay in it forever even though it's kinda crap and his mother is warning me off", you say, "a successful relationship for me is going to require working on my people-pleasing, boundaries, and ability to recognize and avoid someone who would rather manipulate my flaws than appreciate my strengths."
Bottom line: is this the relationship you want, if nothing changes? People don't understand exactly how much bad and good gets locked in by roughly that point. People DO change, but it's mostly an accident if it's ever a change you want. And all the bad stuff, once you've endorsed it by not rejecting it, it's built-in now.
You should have walked a month or two in. But the fact that you didn't doesn't mean you just have to give up and stay. You can still walk, this is a pretty normal point to realize it's not going to work out, and that's all you really have to give as a reason: this just isn't meshing the way I'd hoped, it's not working for me, I know you're gonna find someone who truly suits you soon and I will do the same. I wish you well and thank you for the time we've had together.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:49 AM on January 4
Or it's time to do some soul-searching, but from a perspective of "have I built the relationship I want" rather than "can I fix this broken thing".
This is where you may have to realize you have your own stuff you need to go work on, single, rather than bringing it into the foundation of a relationship. You do not say "this mediocre relationship IS partially my fault so I should just stay in it forever even though it's kinda crap and his mother is warning me off", you say, "a successful relationship for me is going to require working on my people-pleasing, boundaries, and ability to recognize and avoid someone who would rather manipulate my flaws than appreciate my strengths."
Bottom line: is this the relationship you want, if nothing changes? People don't understand exactly how much bad and good gets locked in by roughly that point. People DO change, but it's mostly an accident if it's ever a change you want. And all the bad stuff, once you've endorsed it by not rejecting it, it's built-in now.
You should have walked a month or two in. But the fact that you didn't doesn't mean you just have to give up and stay. You can still walk, this is a pretty normal point to realize it's not going to work out, and that's all you really have to give as a reason: this just isn't meshing the way I'd hoped, it's not working for me, I know you're gonna find someone who truly suits you soon and I will do the same. I wish you well and thank you for the time we've had together.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:49 AM on January 4
+1 to all the cautions, stories, and advice already given.
I'm going to mention DARVO, just in case it's relevant.
An acronym that stands for Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender. A common manipulation tactic. I have a lot of red flags concerns about if he's communicating or manipulating, but if there's any DARVO at all, run. Even if there isn't, you have a Internet strangers permission to break up and breathe your own air
posted by Jacen at 9:55 AM on January 4
I'm going to mention DARVO, just in case it's relevant.
An acronym that stands for Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender. A common manipulation tactic. I have a lot of red flags concerns about if he's communicating or manipulating, but if there's any DARVO at all, run. Even if there isn't, you have a Internet strangers permission to break up and breathe your own air
posted by Jacen at 9:55 AM on January 4
Trust your gut. If you have to question the relationship this much, something's not right. I disagree with folks who say they need more specific examples to be sure. It's quite obvious your boyfriend talks a lot but doesn't listen to your needs. That is not communication. You see how he was raised; his father is as asshole and his mother even thinks her son's an asshole. Your parents sound like reasonable folks and are offering you their perspective. They can tell that this dynamic is not healthy. Also, you sound very unsure because that's what happens when you're in a relationship with a person like this. All talk. No compromise. Trust the little instinct you have that made you write this post.
Begin to make a plan to separate and have your friends on your side ready to be emotional support. You deserve so much more. DTMFA.
posted by mxjudyliza at 10:30 AM on January 4
Begin to make a plan to separate and have your friends on your side ready to be emotional support. You deserve so much more. DTMFA.
posted by mxjudyliza at 10:30 AM on January 4
It’s not a communication problem. If it were, you two could change the way you speak and listen to each other, and change the dynamic enormously. One thought I had: she needs to learn to respect her own wants and needs, and to advocate for them. But that’s not the main issue, because he likely chose you because you defer to him. He may well prefer to be with someone who lets him decide how the relationship is going to go. I hope you won’t opt for continuing to undervalue yourself, even though he may leave if you become more assertive.
posted by wryly at 10:36 AM on January 4
posted by wryly at 10:36 AM on January 4
He is not a "smooth, eloquent, and convincing communicator." He is a smooth, eloquent, and convincing manipulator. With a mean streak, apparently.
posted by SamanthaK at 10:41 AM on January 4
posted by SamanthaK at 10:41 AM on January 4
Thank you, your replies have been very validating and have given me much to think about.
To follow up on the requests for examples, a lot of the jokes are practical jokes. This is kind of ridiculous, but an example is chasing me around with something gross in his hands, which I expressed a strong opposition to while it was happening (a firm “Please do not do this, I’m serious, it really grosses me out”). Did not stop it from happening again a few weeks later and it was also the subject of laughter with his family during the holidays. To me, this is extremely childish and should not be the kind of issue that should require raising my voice (i.e. escalating further to make a boundary clear). I'm dating an adult, not a toddler.
Another example that occurred recently was comparing me to a Star Wars creature (and not a cute one) from a poster, telling me that that’s what I look like when I wake up. This one stuck with me because he then proceeded to tell this same “joke” to one of my family members, which made me feel so embarrassed. This feels like a slippery slope given the type of jokes his dad makes. Once, during dinner, his dad compared my figure to a tall and thin glass on the table and his mom’s to the wider and shorter glass next to it. In front of us. That this comment went unchallenged is so horrible and shameful, I have been on the fence about even including it in my answer. I regret not saying anything in the moment.
posted by Clyde Sparrow at 11:22 AM on January 4
To follow up on the requests for examples, a lot of the jokes are practical jokes. This is kind of ridiculous, but an example is chasing me around with something gross in his hands, which I expressed a strong opposition to while it was happening (a firm “Please do not do this, I’m serious, it really grosses me out”). Did not stop it from happening again a few weeks later and it was also the subject of laughter with his family during the holidays. To me, this is extremely childish and should not be the kind of issue that should require raising my voice (i.e. escalating further to make a boundary clear). I'm dating an adult, not a toddler.
Another example that occurred recently was comparing me to a Star Wars creature (and not a cute one) from a poster, telling me that that’s what I look like when I wake up. This one stuck with me because he then proceeded to tell this same “joke” to one of my family members, which made me feel so embarrassed. This feels like a slippery slope given the type of jokes his dad makes. Once, during dinner, his dad compared my figure to a tall and thin glass on the table and his mom’s to the wider and shorter glass next to it. In front of us. That this comment went unchallenged is so horrible and shameful, I have been on the fence about even including it in my answer. I regret not saying anything in the moment.
posted by Clyde Sparrow at 11:22 AM on January 4
I smell a whole lot of entitlement coming off this guy, in addition to what everyone else has been pointing out. My ex-husband was like that, such that my mother noticed -- and my mother was not generally great at noticing things.
She was right, I was wrong, the marriage should not have happened, and the divorce happened at least a decade later than it should have.
Basically it's his way or the highway. You will never get your needs met or your boundaries respected by this guy because he doesn't think your needs or boundaries are a consideration -- you are his annex, not a full person in your own right, never MIND an equal partner.
Please be smarter than I was. Lose this guy ASAP.
posted by humbug at 11:27 AM on January 4
She was right, I was wrong, the marriage should not have happened, and the divorce happened at least a decade later than it should have.
Basically it's his way or the highway. You will never get your needs met or your boundaries respected by this guy because he doesn't think your needs or boundaries are a consideration -- you are his annex, not a full person in your own right, never MIND an equal partner.
Please be smarter than I was. Lose this guy ASAP.
posted by humbug at 11:27 AM on January 4
I feel like in a lot of these situations what happens is that the person who has doubts and questions spends a lot of time trying to analyze and understand why their partner is behaving in this way and what does it mean and not enough time reflecting on the impact of this behavior on them. You and your feelings matter most here.
I would strongly encourage you to reflect, journal, think, talk in therapy or with a trust friend on the following question.
- How does my boyfriend's behaviors and actions make me feel? Do I feel loved and respected?
- What would it look like to be loved and respected in a relationship? What actions would I see?
- What does good communication look like to me?
- What are my values about relationships?
If you feel like the answers to any of these questions are basically some version of this person makes me feel bad/sad/anxious/disrespected/undesirable then you need to make a decision then the question becomes leave or stay. Frankly, I would lean towards leave because while all relationships take work the work shouldn't be "exhausting" and the work needs to be mutually shared, which doesn't seem to be the case with you and your boyfriend.
As others have said above, simply saying, "I will work on this" or "I care and will do better" is not enough. Your boyfriend would have to demonstrate that they are changing their behaviors to better accommodate your needs.
posted by brookeb at 11:28 AM on January 4
I would strongly encourage you to reflect, journal, think, talk in therapy or with a trust friend on the following question.
- How does my boyfriend's behaviors and actions make me feel? Do I feel loved and respected?
- What would it look like to be loved and respected in a relationship? What actions would I see?
- What does good communication look like to me?
- What are my values about relationships?
If you feel like the answers to any of these questions are basically some version of this person makes me feel bad/sad/anxious/disrespected/undesirable then you need to make a decision then the question becomes leave or stay. Frankly, I would lean towards leave because while all relationships take work the work shouldn't be "exhausting" and the work needs to be mutually shared, which doesn't seem to be the case with you and your boyfriend.
As others have said above, simply saying, "I will work on this" or "I care and will do better" is not enough. Your boyfriend would have to demonstrate that they are changing their behaviors to better accommodate your needs.
posted by brookeb at 11:28 AM on January 4
Another example that occurred recently was comparing me to a Star Wars creature
On reflection please boot your GNK droid shaped boyfriend into the sun and go live your life free from him 🗑️
posted by phunniemee at 11:29 AM on January 4
On reflection please boot your GNK droid shaped boyfriend into the sun and go live your life free from him 🗑️
posted by phunniemee at 11:29 AM on January 4
I ended a relationship a few years ago and in the ensuing years, basically every single person who knew us has said something like, "I never liked the way he treated you" or "that relationship just seemed so hard," or "you never seemed like yourself around him."
I had a similar experience after I got divorced and it was really heartbreaking to learn just how many people had thought those things. I don't fault them for not saying anything in our early years because those sentiments are rarely if ever received well and tend to be alienating, and of course I eventually arrived at the same conclusion myself, but damn, it made me so sad to know that after the fact. Your parents sound very brave and caring to even broach this topic, especially since you can already identify what they were pointing out as being cause for concern.
posted by anderjen at 11:31 AM on January 4
I had a similar experience after I got divorced and it was really heartbreaking to learn just how many people had thought those things. I don't fault them for not saying anything in our early years because those sentiments are rarely if ever received well and tend to be alienating, and of course I eventually arrived at the same conclusion myself, but damn, it made me so sad to know that after the fact. Your parents sound very brave and caring to even broach this topic, especially since you can already identify what they were pointing out as being cause for concern.
posted by anderjen at 11:31 AM on January 4
I already feel like I have to be very assertive and escalate things ... I don't think it should be this exhausting.
I've done this for 48 years. It becomes more than exhausting; it wears down your soul. It happened once incident at a time, and then I sailed along, more or less, contented, until the next time it happened. As I look back, there were so many, many things that I gave in, gave up, and gave away, because I thought it was just that once and was so much easier than pushing back and fighting an uphill battle.
Every marriage has compromises and disappointments, but it shouldn't start with that much of a power imbalance between two people. And yes, it's about power and control. He controlled the situations where you were forced to accept his 'little jokes" at the time, and then showed the power he has over you by bringing them up again, in public, not just in front of strangers, but before you care about and will see for the rest of your life.
Finally, if you have a son, do you want him to be raised to be this way? Is that what you want for a daughter-in-law? If you have a daughter, do you want to model this kind of passive behavior for her, to put her in the same situation as her paternal grandmother is in?
posted by BlueHorse at 12:04 PM on January 4
I've done this for 48 years. It becomes more than exhausting; it wears down your soul. It happened once incident at a time, and then I sailed along, more or less, contented, until the next time it happened. As I look back, there were so many, many things that I gave in, gave up, and gave away, because I thought it was just that once and was so much easier than pushing back and fighting an uphill battle.
Every marriage has compromises and disappointments, but it shouldn't start with that much of a power imbalance between two people. And yes, it's about power and control. He controlled the situations where you were forced to accept his 'little jokes" at the time, and then showed the power he has over you by bringing them up again, in public, not just in front of strangers, but before you care about and will see for the rest of your life.
Finally, if you have a son, do you want him to be raised to be this way? Is that what you want for a daughter-in-law? If you have a daughter, do you want to model this kind of passive behavior for her, to put her in the same situation as her paternal grandmother is in?
posted by BlueHorse at 12:04 PM on January 4
Take a look at this short video from Jimmy On Relationships. He has a ton of great videos showing how to enforce boundaries and how to truly communicate effectively. If the guy's response on the video resonates, you may find some of his other videos helpful too.
Start enforcing your own boundaries and see if your guy can respect those. If he can't, there is certainly someone out there who can. You don't have to justify or explain your boundaries. It's not for him to decide if they're reasonable.
posted by hydra77 at 12:12 PM on January 4
Start enforcing your own boundaries and see if your guy can respect those. If he can't, there is certainly someone out there who can. You don't have to justify or explain your boundaries. It's not for him to decide if they're reasonable.
posted by hydra77 at 12:12 PM on January 4
little jokes that may seem funny now might turn into something more insidious. I already feel like I have to be very assertive and escalate things to having a ~very serious conversation~ (as opposed to a more casual, in-the-moment “okay, this is funny this one time, but please don’t do it again”
RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG
He chased you around with something gross and continued to do it when you asked him to stop and you had to YELL to get him to stop and he did it again a few weeks later? NOOOOOOOOOOO.
This is not okay. You need OUT, as soon as possible. He is pushing and testing your boundaries now, and making you fight, to wear you down, so you'll stop fighting back. Remember that people are usually on their best behavior early in a relationship. It's not going to get better, and it will certainly get worse. It is not going to get any easier to get out of this thing.
Your parents and his mother are telling you, as kindly as they can: get the fuck out, now.
You said you haven't seen his mean streak, but it's right there, when he's chasing you around, when you are miserable, and he is laughing and having fun because you are in pain. His mean streak is right there when his dad uses you to demean his mother and objectify you both and he doesn't say anything.
Your partner is incredibly skilled in the language of manipulation, and he's gaslighting you. Like, this is gaslighting: I'm doing all the right things here, so you must be the one with the problem.
RUN.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:46 PM on January 4
RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG
He chased you around with something gross and continued to do it when you asked him to stop and you had to YELL to get him to stop and he did it again a few weeks later? NOOOOOOOOOOO.
This is not okay. You need OUT, as soon as possible. He is pushing and testing your boundaries now, and making you fight, to wear you down, so you'll stop fighting back. Remember that people are usually on their best behavior early in a relationship. It's not going to get better, and it will certainly get worse. It is not going to get any easier to get out of this thing.
Your parents and his mother are telling you, as kindly as they can: get the fuck out, now.
You said you haven't seen his mean streak, but it's right there, when he's chasing you around, when you are miserable, and he is laughing and having fun because you are in pain. His mean streak is right there when his dad uses you to demean his mother and objectify you both and he doesn't say anything.
Your partner is incredibly skilled in the language of manipulation, and he's gaslighting you. Like, this is gaslighting: I'm doing all the right things here, so you must be the one with the problem.
RUN.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:46 PM on January 4
Oh, wow. OK, yeah, after that update, just...no. This isn't just a "mismatch." This guy sucks, actually.
Just for a counterpoint from my own relationship: my partner once made a joke about how I look when I sleep. We had been joking around together already, busting each others' balls a bit, it was all in good fun, you know? So I decided to laugh it off, but it really stung!
And guess what? My partner could tell it had stung. Because he's a kind person who pays attention. (And I'm a shitty liar I guess.) And he immediately apologized, not a BS "sorry you can't take a joke" or whatever either, a genuine, "I am so sorry, that was a horrible thing to say and I didn't mean it." He didn't, fuckin', double down and share the joke with everyone I know later on.
This isn't a brag about how dope my relationship is, btw. This is baseline, this is how adults who care about each other interact. We still screw up! We still hurt each others' feelings. But we aren't mean on purpose, and that's what your boyfriend is. Mean on purpose.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:01 PM on January 4
Just for a counterpoint from my own relationship: my partner once made a joke about how I look when I sleep. We had been joking around together already, busting each others' balls a bit, it was all in good fun, you know? So I decided to laugh it off, but it really stung!
And guess what? My partner could tell it had stung. Because he's a kind person who pays attention. (And I'm a shitty liar I guess.) And he immediately apologized, not a BS "sorry you can't take a joke" or whatever either, a genuine, "I am so sorry, that was a horrible thing to say and I didn't mean it." He didn't, fuckin', double down and share the joke with everyone I know later on.
This isn't a brag about how dope my relationship is, btw. This is baseline, this is how adults who care about each other interact. We still screw up! We still hurt each others' feelings. But we aren't mean on purpose, and that's what your boyfriend is. Mean on purpose.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:01 PM on January 4
This dude has learned from his father that women are to be objectified, ridiculed, not taken seriously, the butt of cruel jokes, and probably much worse. No wonder you're exhausted. His mother telling you he is mean was a gift. Your parents also talking to you was a gift. Just leave him ASAP. Find someone who doesn't make fun of you as a baseline.
posted by mxjudyliza at 1:33 PM on January 4
posted by mxjudyliza at 1:33 PM on January 4
"Another example that occurred recently was comparing me to a Star Wars creature (and not a cute one) from a poster, telling me that that’s what I look like when I wake up. This one stuck with me because he then proceeded to tell this same “joke” to one of my family members, which made me feel so embarrassed. This feels like a slippery slope given the type of jokes his dad makes."
This isn't a "joke". This is him insulting you and then calling a joke so he can pretend that it's not an insult.
posted by hydra77 at 2:19 PM on January 4
This isn't a "joke". This is him insulting you and then calling a joke so he can pretend that it's not an insult.
posted by hydra77 at 2:19 PM on January 4
My partner's mother has claimed that he has a similar mean streak to his father and that I haven't really seen the extent of it yet.
you are not going to get a better or a clearer warning away from an abusive man than this. not ever. this woman has given you a great gift, perhaps at some risk to herself and certainly at some cost. do you think it is wise to keep on following the lead of the men in her family by continuing to ignore and dismiss her and her profoundly generous act?
because look, you started off by classing all this nastiness under the header of "communication." but this woman's communication skills seem to be very good, and so do the communication skills of your own parents. certainly as good as the communication skills of your bullying creep. the issue is not who is communicating most strongly or clearly -- everyone involved is communicating clearly -- but whose communications you choose to fully accept, believe, trust, and act on.
him being a "better" (more aggressive) communicator than you doesn't mean he wins and you lose. it simply means that you know more about his thoughts and desires than he knows about yours. the person who talks the most and the loudest gives the most away. you know him and you see him. nobody can make you do anything with that, or about it, but I really think you should.
I'm not entirely sure what are "normal" issues and compromises, as I feel like my parents, who are very similar to each other in many ways, might have an atypically symbiotic, relatively conflict-free marriage.
do you want to be typical or do you want to be respected and loved
it is within your power to select a partner who is similar to you, if you think a conflict-free marriage would be a nice thing to have.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:24 PM on January 4
you are not going to get a better or a clearer warning away from an abusive man than this. not ever. this woman has given you a great gift, perhaps at some risk to herself and certainly at some cost. do you think it is wise to keep on following the lead of the men in her family by continuing to ignore and dismiss her and her profoundly generous act?
because look, you started off by classing all this nastiness under the header of "communication." but this woman's communication skills seem to be very good, and so do the communication skills of your own parents. certainly as good as the communication skills of your bullying creep. the issue is not who is communicating most strongly or clearly -- everyone involved is communicating clearly -- but whose communications you choose to fully accept, believe, trust, and act on.
him being a "better" (more aggressive) communicator than you doesn't mean he wins and you lose. it simply means that you know more about his thoughts and desires than he knows about yours. the person who talks the most and the loudest gives the most away. you know him and you see him. nobody can make you do anything with that, or about it, but I really think you should.
I'm not entirely sure what are "normal" issues and compromises, as I feel like my parents, who are very similar to each other in many ways, might have an atypically symbiotic, relatively conflict-free marriage.
do you want to be typical or do you want to be respected and loved
it is within your power to select a partner who is similar to you, if you think a conflict-free marriage would be a nice thing to have.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:24 PM on January 4
Another red flag that I haven't seen mentioned yet is accelerating intimacy by getting you to move in with him before you might have chosen to pursue that yourself. It's now harder to leave him because you're intertwined, but please do.
posted by freethefeet at 2:46 PM on January 4
posted by freethefeet at 2:46 PM on January 4
I'm not saying the relationship is unsalvageable, but the fact that his mother is warning you off and that your parents are concerned is a flashing red light to me.
It sounds like there's a lot to "fix" before you let this relationship progress at all, and honestly, if you were my friend, I'd tell you to back out a bit and get control of your situation.
What do your friends say? If they don't have enough contact with him, that may be a red flag that you both haven't prioritized integrating him into your already-existing life and have only been focused on fitting yourself into his life. Your friends will have a somewhat less biased and clearer view of his behavior and your response to it, so I urge you to do that reality check.
What does your therapist say? If you don't have one, please get one, because the people-pleasing behaviors and the ignoring of red flags you describe is self-destructive, and you deserve to learn how to treat yourself much better.
The ability to please people is good; being an actual people-pleaser is only good for the person being pleased, and once you realize that you're setting someone else's joy above your own constantly and completely, it will likely be too late to extricate yourself from this.
He is not "communicating" by being verbal anymore than cooking is having a fine dining experience. Him telling you why he's right isn't communicating. He's manipulating you. You moving in with him so he doesn't have to be inconvenienced in order to show you any of the attention you want isn't compromise; it's you acquiescing to his needs because he's smooth-talking and you're going along to get along.
The fact that he hasn't been outright "mean" to you the way his father is mean to his mother is like someone saying, "How can you say my husband is abusive when he's never broken my bones?" A good relationship isn't one where there's just not bad stuff; it's one where it's almost all good (and neutral) stuff, and you figure out how to solve the not-good/bad stuff together. Him talking about what he wants is not communication, because he's not understanding what you need and acting in accordance and fairness.
And now, after seeing your follow-up on his behavior, I'm going to strongly urge you to create a lot of distance between you (if not outright break up immediately) and to get some supportive therapy. I hate practical jokes and teasing, but some people love them; the point is you don't push behavior on someone that displeases them.
If someone chased me around with something gross, I would strongly and firmly say, "I don't like that. Please stop and don't EVER do something like that again, or this ends immediately." You said you tried to say something similar. The fact that he ignored your boundary means that you aren't showing him consequences. And the fact that he insulted your figure anywhere but in the privacy of his own brain (and honestly, even there) makes him an unacceptable partner.
In such situations (provided you aren't in physical danger), you need to say, "if you do X, I will do Y" and then you must do Y, which is generally removing yourself from the behavior. And if a person continues to treat you with anything except complete and utter respect, they do not deserve the privilege of being in your life.
OP, your original notes had me on the fence. I was leaning toward "Hell, no, get out of this relationship," but I grew up in a home with a narcissistic father and didn't want my situation to color yours. But no. This person doesn't deserve you, and you deserve so much better.
A good cue for such things: what would you want your best friend to do in this situation? What would your want your child to do in this situation? Would you want a daughter to accept this kind of treatment?
Get out, get away from him, and find someone who ONLY treats you with respect.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 3:09 PM on January 4
It sounds like there's a lot to "fix" before you let this relationship progress at all, and honestly, if you were my friend, I'd tell you to back out a bit and get control of your situation.
What do your friends say? If they don't have enough contact with him, that may be a red flag that you both haven't prioritized integrating him into your already-existing life and have only been focused on fitting yourself into his life. Your friends will have a somewhat less biased and clearer view of his behavior and your response to it, so I urge you to do that reality check.
What does your therapist say? If you don't have one, please get one, because the people-pleasing behaviors and the ignoring of red flags you describe is self-destructive, and you deserve to learn how to treat yourself much better.
The ability to please people is good; being an actual people-pleaser is only good for the person being pleased, and once you realize that you're setting someone else's joy above your own constantly and completely, it will likely be too late to extricate yourself from this.
He is not "communicating" by being verbal anymore than cooking is having a fine dining experience. Him telling you why he's right isn't communicating. He's manipulating you. You moving in with him so he doesn't have to be inconvenienced in order to show you any of the attention you want isn't compromise; it's you acquiescing to his needs because he's smooth-talking and you're going along to get along.
The fact that he hasn't been outright "mean" to you the way his father is mean to his mother is like someone saying, "How can you say my husband is abusive when he's never broken my bones?" A good relationship isn't one where there's just not bad stuff; it's one where it's almost all good (and neutral) stuff, and you figure out how to solve the not-good/bad stuff together. Him talking about what he wants is not communication, because he's not understanding what you need and acting in accordance and fairness.
And now, after seeing your follow-up on his behavior, I'm going to strongly urge you to create a lot of distance between you (if not outright break up immediately) and to get some supportive therapy. I hate practical jokes and teasing, but some people love them; the point is you don't push behavior on someone that displeases them.
If someone chased me around with something gross, I would strongly and firmly say, "I don't like that. Please stop and don't EVER do something like that again, or this ends immediately." You said you tried to say something similar. The fact that he ignored your boundary means that you aren't showing him consequences. And the fact that he insulted your figure anywhere but in the privacy of his own brain (and honestly, even there) makes him an unacceptable partner.
In such situations (provided you aren't in physical danger), you need to say, "if you do X, I will do Y" and then you must do Y, which is generally removing yourself from the behavior. And if a person continues to treat you with anything except complete and utter respect, they do not deserve the privilege of being in your life.
OP, your original notes had me on the fence. I was leaning toward "Hell, no, get out of this relationship," but I grew up in a home with a narcissistic father and didn't want my situation to color yours. But no. This person doesn't deserve you, and you deserve so much better.
A good cue for such things: what would you want your best friend to do in this situation? What would your want your child to do in this situation? Would you want a daughter to accept this kind of treatment?
Get out, get away from him, and find someone who ONLY treats you with respect.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 3:09 PM on January 4
Just want to chime in that in 53 years of life, I have never been friends with or dated anyone with "a mean streak." That's, like, not common. I can't think of anyone I've really even known with one. And his MOM said it?? Yeet this douchenozzle.
posted by tristeza at 3:14 PM on January 4
posted by tristeza at 3:14 PM on January 4
The fact that he ignored your clearly stated boundary is not your fault. It's his. He doesn't get to claim to be good at communication when he ignores clear communication he doesn't like. That's entirely on him.
posted by lapis at 3:30 PM on January 4
posted by lapis at 3:30 PM on January 4
Communication isn't communication unless it's honest.
Communication between you both isn't honest because he's lying about his intentions and you're lying about your level of discomfort with the way things are going. If he was honest, he'd say he wants to take advantage of you. If you were honest, you'd scream that you hate his fucking guts because of the way he's manipulating you.
posted by MiraK at 3:52 PM on January 4
Communication between you both isn't honest because he's lying about his intentions and you're lying about your level of discomfort with the way things are going. If he was honest, he'd say he wants to take advantage of you. If you were honest, you'd scream that you hate his fucking guts because of the way he's manipulating you.
posted by MiraK at 3:52 PM on January 4
Practical jokes against people who don't appreciate that style of humour (I'm being generous here, I think of practical joking as bullying with a laugh track, but many disagree), that's abusive.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 7:46 PM on January 4
posted by Ardnamurchan at 7:46 PM on January 4
His "jokes" dont' sound like jokes. It just sounds like he's being mean to you. Does he care at all when you tell him it hurts your feelings? I mean, he obviously doesn't care enough to stop the behaviour that hurts you. And his mother has told you that you haven't actually even seen his mean streak. I've seen this play out. The mean person does not become kinder with time. The more their partner puts up with their mistreatment, the more they can "get away" with and the meanness just ramps up.
posted by Polychrome at 3:15 AM on January 5
posted by Polychrome at 3:15 AM on January 5
That warning from his mother alone should basically be enough to DTMFA. She's telling you he has a mean streak, and you haven't seen the worst of it yet. You already have doubts, and you know that there's worse. Listen to your gut.
To follow up on the requests for examples, a lot of the jokes are practical jokes. This is kind of ridiculous, but an example is chasing me around with something gross in his hands, which I expressed a strong opposition to while it was happening (a firm “Please do not do this, I’m serious, it really grosses me out”). Did not stop it from happening again a few weeks later and it was also the subject of laughter with his family during the holidays. To me, this is extremely childish and should not be the kind of issue that should require raising my voice (i.e. escalating further to make a boundary clear). I'm dating an adult, not a toddler.
I don't want to be alarmist, but my stepfather did shit like this. It was the tip of the iceberg - he was abusive in so many ways. And i'm not saying that your boyfriend would go on to molest your child if you had one, but what i will say is, it's only a joke if everyone is laughing.
If someone plays a "practical joke" that is mean, that you've stated you do not want, then it's not a joke, it's abuse. And they are using "just a joke" as a cover.
B/w the jokes and his mother's warning, this is absolutely a case of, "Dump him, run far, run fast, get out of this relationship."
You are seeing him on his best behavior. You do not want to see what happens once you get married and he no longer has to show his "good" side.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:52 AM on January 5
To follow up on the requests for examples, a lot of the jokes are practical jokes. This is kind of ridiculous, but an example is chasing me around with something gross in his hands, which I expressed a strong opposition to while it was happening (a firm “Please do not do this, I’m serious, it really grosses me out”). Did not stop it from happening again a few weeks later and it was also the subject of laughter with his family during the holidays. To me, this is extremely childish and should not be the kind of issue that should require raising my voice (i.e. escalating further to make a boundary clear). I'm dating an adult, not a toddler.
I don't want to be alarmist, but my stepfather did shit like this. It was the tip of the iceberg - he was abusive in so many ways. And i'm not saying that your boyfriend would go on to molest your child if you had one, but what i will say is, it's only a joke if everyone is laughing.
If someone plays a "practical joke" that is mean, that you've stated you do not want, then it's not a joke, it's abuse. And they are using "just a joke" as a cover.
B/w the jokes and his mother's warning, this is absolutely a case of, "Dump him, run far, run fast, get out of this relationship."
You are seeing him on his best behavior. You do not want to see what happens once you get married and he no longer has to show his "good" side.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:52 AM on January 5
might have an atypically symbiotic, relatively conflict-free marriage
I just want to flag this specifically, because it suggests you think a typical relationship is unsymbiotic and high-conflict and that's the standard you should achieve.
Symbiosis is GOOD. Having aligning values is IMPORTANT. Conflict is not passion. Bullying is not veiled attraction. You should want and strive for a harmonious relationship, because the outside world is plenty nasty to provide you with all the conflict you might need in your life. Your partner should be your shelter, your safe space.
And do not buy the world's propaganda that you personally are too bad or wrong or undeserving to be allowed that kind of love so you have no choice but to find and stay with somebody who treats you poorly. The world only wants to tell you that so it can sell you lots and lots of stuff to attempt to make your miserable life feel better but it'll never succeed so you'll just keep buying and buying - and working for less than you're worth to boot. Low self-esteem is a solvable problem.
This is not to say that my partner and I haven't had to work on our own shit - always have, always will - but at the very least we have divided up the gross messes in life between the ones that freak me out and the ones that freak him out and "don't come in here yet, you don't want to see this!" is one of the ways we express love. "I don't want you to feel unnecessary distress" is how you treat someone you love. A running joke you BOTH think is funny is way more loving - and, you know, FUN - than "teasing" that pushes buttons or is thinly-veiled criticism.
I don't entirely get what you're looking for beyond what you already know? Why are you clearly observing things like "To me, this is extremely childish and should not be the kind of issue that should require raising my voice" and "I can’t help but feel like much of this communication is window-dressing." and "I am scared that our relationship is heading this way" and yet you stay?
It does make me wonder if you at least maybe tick the neurodivergence box for a strong alignment to justice or fairness and you are operating from a standpoint of "the problem here is simply that he's treating me unfairly and the fix is for him to just be fair" and not understanding why he doesn't make that correction, and that the fix is actually for you to end this relationship so you are free to pursue one with a willing participant?
Are you looking for "bad enough" to leave? There's not any one measuring stick, which means you have to decide for yourself and own the decision and the consequences, but I want to strongly remind you that this doesn't mean that you should consider choosing to stay in a bad relationship because of sunk cost or a low perceived value of your own importance. This relationship WILL end as a result of its flaws, eventually. One day you will have had enough, or you will have children to protect, and you will decide to make the choice his mother did not. Or he will swap you out for someone the age you are now, when they're more pliable and manipulable than older-you will be, plus older-you will likely be diverting some of your attention to the children he likely doesn't really want. But you could just go now, even if it means risking be forever alone (unlikely) or regretting leaving (so unlikely - probably less than 6 weeks before you agonize over having stayed so long), and get on board with yourself so that in the future you deal with this stuff immediately and resolve it or end the experiment before it becomes too enmeshed.
There are someones out there for you who want a loving symbiotic relatively conflict-free relationship of equals. You will have to do some sifting to find them, but they exist. You can have that.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:39 AM on January 5
I just want to flag this specifically, because it suggests you think a typical relationship is unsymbiotic and high-conflict and that's the standard you should achieve.
Symbiosis is GOOD. Having aligning values is IMPORTANT. Conflict is not passion. Bullying is not veiled attraction. You should want and strive for a harmonious relationship, because the outside world is plenty nasty to provide you with all the conflict you might need in your life. Your partner should be your shelter, your safe space.
And do not buy the world's propaganda that you personally are too bad or wrong or undeserving to be allowed that kind of love so you have no choice but to find and stay with somebody who treats you poorly. The world only wants to tell you that so it can sell you lots and lots of stuff to attempt to make your miserable life feel better but it'll never succeed so you'll just keep buying and buying - and working for less than you're worth to boot. Low self-esteem is a solvable problem.
This is not to say that my partner and I haven't had to work on our own shit - always have, always will - but at the very least we have divided up the gross messes in life between the ones that freak me out and the ones that freak him out and "don't come in here yet, you don't want to see this!" is one of the ways we express love. "I don't want you to feel unnecessary distress" is how you treat someone you love. A running joke you BOTH think is funny is way more loving - and, you know, FUN - than "teasing" that pushes buttons or is thinly-veiled criticism.
I don't entirely get what you're looking for beyond what you already know? Why are you clearly observing things like "To me, this is extremely childish and should not be the kind of issue that should require raising my voice" and "I can’t help but feel like much of this communication is window-dressing." and "I am scared that our relationship is heading this way" and yet you stay?
It does make me wonder if you at least maybe tick the neurodivergence box for a strong alignment to justice or fairness and you are operating from a standpoint of "the problem here is simply that he's treating me unfairly and the fix is for him to just be fair" and not understanding why he doesn't make that correction, and that the fix is actually for you to end this relationship so you are free to pursue one with a willing participant?
Are you looking for "bad enough" to leave? There's not any one measuring stick, which means you have to decide for yourself and own the decision and the consequences, but I want to strongly remind you that this doesn't mean that you should consider choosing to stay in a bad relationship because of sunk cost or a low perceived value of your own importance. This relationship WILL end as a result of its flaws, eventually. One day you will have had enough, or you will have children to protect, and you will decide to make the choice his mother did not. Or he will swap you out for someone the age you are now, when they're more pliable and manipulable than older-you will be, plus older-you will likely be diverting some of your attention to the children he likely doesn't really want. But you could just go now, even if it means risking be forever alone (unlikely) or regretting leaving (so unlikely - probably less than 6 weeks before you agonize over having stayed so long), and get on board with yourself so that in the future you deal with this stuff immediately and resolve it or end the experiment before it becomes too enmeshed.
There are someones out there for you who want a loving symbiotic relatively conflict-free relationship of equals. You will have to do some sifting to find them, but they exist. You can have that.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:39 AM on January 5
I agree strongly with Lyn Never. I just want to point out one more way a relationship can end -- when it hollows out into a relationship-in-name-only, that endures largely because of both parties' apathy.
I lived that far too long. Again, be smarter than I was -- get out now.
posted by humbug at 8:13 AM on January 5
I lived that far too long. Again, be smarter than I was -- get out now.
posted by humbug at 8:13 AM on January 5
> I do have a tendency ... to put my head in the sand, to ignore red-flags and to tell myself that everything is great.
This is so very interesting and highlights how your post is full of cognitive dissonance.
Step 1. you say you have a tendency to ignore red flags,
Step 2. you proceed to list a dozen bright red flags in your relationship,
Step 3. you wonder if your eyesight is going bad, is that why your partner seems to be festooned in red? or is your partner choosing to wear an unreasonable amount of red cloth? or are you the one being unreasonable, because after all it's not his fault he loves red so much? sigh relationships are so hard...
You know that old joke where someone is hunting all over the house for their glasses which are perched on their head, and they're too busy hunting for their glasses to hear everyone telling them it's on their head? That's kind of what you're doing here, except you're taking it one step further into farce by being utterly self aware about where you put the glasses. You're saying, "I have a tendency to leave my glasses perched on my head. I wish I could find them now. Oh bother, they're not under my pillow. Can the glasses be under the bed? Oops, these glasses almost fell off my head when I bent down to the floor. Hmm where can they be? Last week I hunted everywhere and they were perched on my head the whole time. But now, look, they aren't on the night stand, they aren't on the kitchen counter..."
In Step 1 you are self aware about your tendency to ignore red flags. In Step 2, you are accurately observant in detailing all of your partner's red flags. In Step 3, you've forgotten everything you just said and you don't know where you are, you have no idea what all this red cloth is or what it means anymore, even though you knew it a second ago.
You're the one who wrote it out, OP. It's right here. Please connect the dots. The farce isn't funny at all when it plays out irl.
posted by MiraK at 9:42 AM on January 5
This is so very interesting and highlights how your post is full of cognitive dissonance.
Step 1. you say you have a tendency to ignore red flags,
Step 2. you proceed to list a dozen bright red flags in your relationship,
Step 3. you wonder if your eyesight is going bad, is that why your partner seems to be festooned in red? or is your partner choosing to wear an unreasonable amount of red cloth? or are you the one being unreasonable, because after all it's not his fault he loves red so much? sigh relationships are so hard...
You know that old joke where someone is hunting all over the house for their glasses which are perched on their head, and they're too busy hunting for their glasses to hear everyone telling them it's on their head? That's kind of what you're doing here, except you're taking it one step further into farce by being utterly self aware about where you put the glasses. You're saying, "I have a tendency to leave my glasses perched on my head. I wish I could find them now. Oh bother, they're not under my pillow. Can the glasses be under the bed? Oops, these glasses almost fell off my head when I bent down to the floor. Hmm where can they be? Last week I hunted everywhere and they were perched on my head the whole time. But now, look, they aren't on the night stand, they aren't on the kitchen counter..."
In Step 1 you are self aware about your tendency to ignore red flags. In Step 2, you are accurately observant in detailing all of your partner's red flags. In Step 3, you've forgotten everything you just said and you don't know where you are, you have no idea what all this red cloth is or what it means anymore, even though you knew it a second ago.
You're the one who wrote it out, OP. It's right here. Please connect the dots. The farce isn't funny at all when it plays out irl.
posted by MiraK at 9:42 AM on January 5
I feel optimistic that you will come back and tell us you've ended it.
An observation re the examples you shared: they're both SUPER gross, and they are related. Do you see how they are related?
1. in the mature phase of this (dad example), we see the man insulting his wife cruelly in front of her family, expecting others to be fine with this, i.e that insulting her will be a jolly experience for everyone else to partake in. (He is right: nobody pushes back. Wife is humiliated, again. This is her life.)
2. in the beginning phase of this, we see the young man insulting his partner *to her family member*, expecting that family member to be fine with this, i.e. that insulting her will be a jolly experience for the other to join in. (But is he right? Or will the woman's family tell her this is abnormal behavior she shouldn't put up with? And will his partner reject this future and be on her way?)
I'm really looking forward to your update.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:04 AM on January 5
An observation re the examples you shared: they're both SUPER gross, and they are related. Do you see how they are related?
1. in the mature phase of this (dad example), we see the man insulting his wife cruelly in front of her family, expecting others to be fine with this, i.e that insulting her will be a jolly experience for everyone else to partake in. (He is right: nobody pushes back. Wife is humiliated, again. This is her life.)
2. in the beginning phase of this, we see the young man insulting his partner *to her family member*, expecting that family member to be fine with this, i.e. that insulting her will be a jolly experience for the other to join in. (But is he right? Or will the woman's family tell her this is abnormal behavior she shouldn't put up with? And will his partner reject this future and be on her way?)
I'm really looking forward to your update.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:04 AM on January 5
I ended things today. It was a big relief. I’m sure there are difficult days ahead as this new reality sets in, but I know it was the right decision.
I got into and remained in this situation precisely because of my tendency to question and suppress my own perceptions and gut feelings, something I will start working on very seriously with my therapist. Lyn Never and MiraK, your comments from earlier today addressed this flaw in my reasoning so clearly, I had no choice but to trust what I knew deep down. fingersandtoes, what you wrote in your last comment is the exact logical continuation I could foresee, and while it was already a scary prospect, hearing it from someone else made it harder to dismiss it as a pure hypothetical. I am grateful to the many of you who came back to comment on this question several times - I think this underscored the severity of the situation, which I now fully recognize, having thought through some additional incidents I had forgiven and forgotten a little too quickly. I appreciate all the advice, the warnings, and shared experiences. Thank you so much.
posted by Clyde Sparrow at 9:31 PM on January 5
I got into and remained in this situation precisely because of my tendency to question and suppress my own perceptions and gut feelings, something I will start working on very seriously with my therapist. Lyn Never and MiraK, your comments from earlier today addressed this flaw in my reasoning so clearly, I had no choice but to trust what I knew deep down. fingersandtoes, what you wrote in your last comment is the exact logical continuation I could foresee, and while it was already a scary prospect, hearing it from someone else made it harder to dismiss it as a pure hypothetical. I am grateful to the many of you who came back to comment on this question several times - I think this underscored the severity of the situation, which I now fully recognize, having thought through some additional incidents I had forgiven and forgotten a little too quickly. I appreciate all the advice, the warnings, and shared experiences. Thank you so much.
posted by Clyde Sparrow at 9:31 PM on January 5
It's scary, but we're all cheering you on.
my tendency to question and suppress my own perceptions and gut feelings
Something to keep in your pocket as you move forward, from someone who did a lot of this too when I was younger: it usually works out fine to err slightly too far to the side of caution. There's just always this voice in your head trying to say that you're "giving up" too soon, it might work out, it might be okay in the end, but this creates an obligation that doesn't actually exist. I think this is the precursor to Sunk Cost Fallacy, which is that sense of "I've already put too much effort into this to stop now" - it starts at "It'll be fine if I'd just put more effort into this".
If you're at a job/in a relationship/in a physical location/spending money on something and red flags start racking up, you can start heading to the exit right then in most situations with far less regret on the other side than anxiety insists there will be. There will be other opportunities. That's not to say you should let anxiety be your driver, but at least allocate some credit to the fact that something's bugging you. And make a point to practice this with low-stakes situations: I literally started by walking out of restaurants and stores that were clearly already too busy to provide good service when I walked in. There are other places to get food and other times to do errands.
You might find some reading on "scarcity mindset" helpful as well.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:50 AM on January 6
my tendency to question and suppress my own perceptions and gut feelings
Something to keep in your pocket as you move forward, from someone who did a lot of this too when I was younger: it usually works out fine to err slightly too far to the side of caution. There's just always this voice in your head trying to say that you're "giving up" too soon, it might work out, it might be okay in the end, but this creates an obligation that doesn't actually exist. I think this is the precursor to Sunk Cost Fallacy, which is that sense of "I've already put too much effort into this to stop now" - it starts at "It'll be fine if I'd just put more effort into this".
If you're at a job/in a relationship/in a physical location/spending money on something and red flags start racking up, you can start heading to the exit right then in most situations with far less regret on the other side than anxiety insists there will be. There will be other opportunities. That's not to say you should let anxiety be your driver, but at least allocate some credit to the fact that something's bugging you. And make a point to practice this with low-stakes situations: I literally started by walking out of restaurants and stores that were clearly already too busy to provide good service when I walked in. There are other places to get food and other times to do errands.
You might find some reading on "scarcity mindset" helpful as well.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:50 AM on January 6
One more thing, now that you've decided--it could be good to write down all the mean things, questionable things, red flags, anything at all you disliked about the relationship. Get them into a Notes app something so you can refer to the list whenever he attempts a comeback (or whenever you find yourself wistful about him). Let your present level of resolve guide you in the future.
posted by knotty knots at 8:39 PM on January 6
posted by knotty knots at 8:39 PM on January 6
However he acquired his habits, he is a self-centered, selfish man. Good relationships aren't this hard. Rather than continually making you feel you need to adapt or change for them, they bring out your best self - and his, too. I would advise you to move on, discover more of who you are inside, and watch for someone who brings out the best in you.
posted by summerstorm at 10:42 PM on January 8
posted by summerstorm at 10:42 PM on January 8
So much talk, so many words. It took me so long to give as much or more weight to actions as to words. His behavior is much more likely to tell the truth than his words. Re-assess from that perspective.
posted by theora55 at 7:55 AM on January 11
posted by theora55 at 7:55 AM on January 11
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Only you can know if any of these are dealbreakers for you, and some of them will only emerge with time. But, it sounds like your parents’ comments—combined with the serious messages from your partner’s own mother—have resonated deeply with you. (Legitimately, IMHO.) Rather than getting into a lot of discussion with someone who talks over you, individual therapy to help you figure out your own feelings, and learn to trust your gut, might be helpful. In the meantime, take things slowly with this guy and keep your options open.
posted by rpfields at 7:10 AM on January 4