What am I not thinking of? Leaving a 150k job for lower pay, better QOL
December 28, 2023 9:37 AM Subscribe
Hej MeFis,
Thinking of leaving a very steady job that pays 150k in NYC for a job in the Northeast that is remote that pays 90k that would allow me to live somewhere I enjoy being more (think nature, outdoor activities, family friendly things to do, etc.).
NYC was great initially, but with multiple young children it's really a drag. Most restaurants aren't kid friendly (either can't bring them or don't have kids seats or can't fit a stroller inside) and I can't use the buses or subways with my stroller and my littles can't reliably walk all day and won't be able to for at least another 2-3 years. Also, childcare costs for young kids are up a lot since 2020 and the pricing for 2 under 3 is bananas...the average in my neighborhood is $3k/month/kid!
There are not that many options to stay in the industry I'm in, work remotely, and earn much more than 90k. I could probably get 120-140, but it would be a job I like less (more management, less research). I calculate I can make about $40k less than I do now and break even based on the lower costs of childcare from a remote location, so the offer I have is a bit below that, but I think I'm ok with that given that it's work I really want to do.
What am I not thinking of? Let's assume that relocation costs are not an issue, spouse can work remotely as well, and that in 5 years if I want a change, I can probably find something in the $140+ range. I have 30-so years until retirement, so I'm not too worried about the impact to savings, but still plan to continue to save and am more-or-less on track with where I would expect to be (btw, has anyone found a retirement calculator that let's you account for different costs of living and income ranges over time?)
Pretty sure I won't regret leaving NYC, at least not for now. Maybe in decade we'll come back, but I doubt it.
Anything else I should be asking myself?
NYC was great initially, but with multiple young children it's really a drag. Most restaurants aren't kid friendly (either can't bring them or don't have kids seats or can't fit a stroller inside) and I can't use the buses or subways with my stroller and my littles can't reliably walk all day and won't be able to for at least another 2-3 years. Also, childcare costs for young kids are up a lot since 2020 and the pricing for 2 under 3 is bananas...the average in my neighborhood is $3k/month/kid!
There are not that many options to stay in the industry I'm in, work remotely, and earn much more than 90k. I could probably get 120-140, but it would be a job I like less (more management, less research). I calculate I can make about $40k less than I do now and break even based on the lower costs of childcare from a remote location, so the offer I have is a bit below that, but I think I'm ok with that given that it's work I really want to do.
What am I not thinking of? Let's assume that relocation costs are not an issue, spouse can work remotely as well, and that in 5 years if I want a change, I can probably find something in the $140+ range. I have 30-so years until retirement, so I'm not too worried about the impact to savings, but still plan to continue to save and am more-or-less on track with where I would expect to be (btw, has anyone found a retirement calculator that let's you account for different costs of living and income ranges over time?)
Pretty sure I won't regret leaving NYC, at least not for now. Maybe in decade we'll come back, but I doubt it.
Anything else I should be asking myself?
I did this 3 years ago, working remotely for a job in the major area we used to live in, from a nearby lower cost of living region. I then took a local opportunity that came by which seemed too good to pass up, and now that it has displayed itself to be the shitshow that it is, I can’t find another remote position in the big city like the one before.
So, before upending your life for this (my old big city house is now worth more than I could afford, so this was a one-way move), make SURE that the new job culture is good with a firm commitment to always be remote, because who knows what the remote landscape is actually going to look like in a few years.
Because if you DO move back, now you have to claw back the salary you gave up.
posted by Huggiesbear at 9:51 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
So, before upending your life for this (my old big city house is now worth more than I could afford, so this was a one-way move), make SURE that the new job culture is good with a firm commitment to always be remote, because who knows what the remote landscape is actually going to look like in a few years.
Because if you DO move back, now you have to claw back the salary you gave up.
posted by Huggiesbear at 9:51 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Calculate in the value of pension/ 401K contribution, child care may not be as affordable as you expect, you'll need a car, you'll pay lower taxes overall, and NYC and NY state taxes are high. The cultural and educational opportunities in NYC are staggering. Do the kids have another parent? Please don't move children away from their parent unless the person is fairly deranged. Money's incredibly useful, but hating where you live is a drag on your spirit.
posted by theora55 at 9:53 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 9:53 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think you want to get very concrete about where you mean for this “outdoors” area and what schooling will look like for your kids. They won’t be in strollers for more than a few years but they will be in school for a long time. A lot of attractive natural places got a lot more expensive in 2020. But in general, yeah, trade income for quality of life anytime.
posted by vunder at 9:55 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by vunder at 9:55 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
the offer I have is a bit below that, but I think I'm ok with that given that it's work I really want to do
What is the potential for increases in compensation over time at that position? Taking a hit is more manageable if it's relatively temporary. But if your current position has a good advancement track and the new one does not, then the decrease in compensation is only going to compound over time.
What am I not thinking of?
Well, I can't say you're not thinking of these things, but these are some issues to consider if you haven't already: Increased distance to friends and family (if applicable); not having the same educational and cultural opportunities as NYC; the culture and politics of the new community; moving from a public transit-oriented city to one that (presumably) isn't; the climate impact of moving into a less dense area and being more car dependent.
I know you mentioned that public transit is not feasible with a stroller, but if you're talking about coming back to NYC "maybe in a decade" then you'll have more years where the lack of public transit matters than not.
All that said: quality of life is important, and it sounds like not only would you have more to enjoy outside the city, but you'd be enjoying it earlier in life and giving your children those same shared experiences in their formative years, which is presumably also important to you.
posted by jedicus at 9:56 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
What is the potential for increases in compensation over time at that position? Taking a hit is more manageable if it's relatively temporary. But if your current position has a good advancement track and the new one does not, then the decrease in compensation is only going to compound over time.
What am I not thinking of?
Well, I can't say you're not thinking of these things, but these are some issues to consider if you haven't already: Increased distance to friends and family (if applicable); not having the same educational and cultural opportunities as NYC; the culture and politics of the new community; moving from a public transit-oriented city to one that (presumably) isn't; the climate impact of moving into a less dense area and being more car dependent.
I know you mentioned that public transit is not feasible with a stroller, but if you're talking about coming back to NYC "maybe in a decade" then you'll have more years where the lack of public transit matters than not.
All that said: quality of life is important, and it sounds like not only would you have more to enjoy outside the city, but you'd be enjoying it earlier in life and giving your children those same shared experiences in their formative years, which is presumably also important to you.
posted by jedicus at 9:56 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
But in general, yeah, trade income for quality of life anytime.
This. But, you have to be realistic about the costs/benefits. Like, will childcare of equivalent quality be available, and at what actual cost? Will you be able to manage with one car or will you need two to keep one person from feeling isolated? What will the social opportunities and quality of schools look like?
Basically, make it all real, rather than abstract.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:07 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
This. But, you have to be realistic about the costs/benefits. Like, will childcare of equivalent quality be available, and at what actual cost? Will you be able to manage with one car or will you need two to keep one person from feeling isolated? What will the social opportunities and quality of schools look like?
Basically, make it all real, rather than abstract.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:07 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Once your kids are in school they won't want to be uprooted. One of the best things I did for my kids was to stay in one place. They all gravitated back there after college and other pursuits and have friends they've known their whole lives. If you're thinking about staying in the northeast check out Ithaca, excellent public schools, lots of awesome natural areas.
posted by mareli at 10:09 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by mareli at 10:09 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Would you be able to easily find another remote job in your industry if something was to happen to the job you are considering within the 5 year timeline you mentioned? Or would you need to find a local, in-person job in a different industry?
posted by lovelygirl at 10:13 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by lovelygirl at 10:13 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Many (but not all) industries are veering away from remote work. My main concern is that you move somewhere, lose that remote job, and aren't able to find a new remote one or a decent in person position in your new low COL location. In which case presumably you could move back to NYC or another high COL city with better job opportunities. So not a total disaster, but I think that is the main risk with what you propose. Pretty much all of my friends (with one exception) who lived in NYC left after having a second kid or if they wanted to buy a house.
posted by emd3737 at 10:14 AM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 10:14 AM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's not clear whether you're thinking "very rural" or "largest town in a state with a lot of natural beauty" but...
Are you going to be happy driving everywhere? That's a big change, and, as noted above, carries with it substantial costs that will need to be accounted for.
Is the health care in your proposed new location adequate? Go to the website of the insurance you'd have and see what coverage looks like. This is a very very crude measure but if there's one gynecologist for three counties...
How much cheaper is safe child care going to be? It's not cheap anywhere, and availability gets patchier as population gets less dense. And what about the schools for when the kids start?
Since you say "northeast," this will probably be at least as okay as you can get in the U.S., but what if any of your kids turn out to be gay or trans? Do you think they will be supported in school and able to access necessary health care? What about abortion availability for a terrible teenage error in judgment (or if whichever of the adults can get pregnant decides to try for another and there's a medical catastrophe)?
Whichever of you is a woman needs to think hard about whether stepping back in your career is likely to have long-term repercussions (answer to that one is: yes).
That said, if it feels like you can't even take advantage of NYC right now because the logistics are overwhelming, it's not an inherently insane move. It's not right for everyone at every stage of their life. It sounds like you have a positive image in mind you're moving towards rather than just reacting negatively to your current situation.
posted by praemunire at 10:39 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Are you going to be happy driving everywhere? That's a big change, and, as noted above, carries with it substantial costs that will need to be accounted for.
Is the health care in your proposed new location adequate? Go to the website of the insurance you'd have and see what coverage looks like. This is a very very crude measure but if there's one gynecologist for three counties...
How much cheaper is safe child care going to be? It's not cheap anywhere, and availability gets patchier as population gets less dense. And what about the schools for when the kids start?
Since you say "northeast," this will probably be at least as okay as you can get in the U.S., but what if any of your kids turn out to be gay or trans? Do you think they will be supported in school and able to access necessary health care? What about abortion availability for a terrible teenage error in judgment (or if whichever of the adults can get pregnant decides to try for another and there's a medical catastrophe)?
Whichever of you is a woman needs to think hard about whether stepping back in your career is likely to have long-term repercussions (answer to that one is: yes).
That said, if it feels like you can't even take advantage of NYC right now because the logistics are overwhelming, it's not an inherently insane move. It's not right for everyone at every stage of their life. It sounds like you have a positive image in mind you're moving towards rather than just reacting negatively to your current situation.
posted by praemunire at 10:39 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
I live in an area that's rural by NYC standards (but urban by local standards) in the Northeast. My main concern would be: do you actually have a childcare spot, or are you just vaguely pricing things out based on what you're finding online?
The nicer centers around here are about $1500 a month for older kids (3-5) and $2000+ a month for infants and toddlers, and all have waiting lists. It's a little less bananas for the preschoolers compared to infants and toddlers but I would anticipate having to wait a while for a spot, doubly so if you want a name brand center for lack of a better term. I see this scenario play out way too often in the local moms group- someone just moved up from NYC or Boston and then they're desperately trying to find any place that has a spot
posted by damayanti at 10:51 AM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
The nicer centers around here are about $1500 a month for older kids (3-5) and $2000+ a month for infants and toddlers, and all have waiting lists. It's a little less bananas for the preschoolers compared to infants and toddlers but I would anticipate having to wait a while for a spot, doubly so if you want a name brand center for lack of a better term. I see this scenario play out way too often in the local moms group- someone just moved up from NYC or Boston and then they're desperately trying to find any place that has a spot
posted by damayanti at 10:51 AM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Many (but not all) industries are veering away from remote work. My main concern is that you move somewhere, lose that remote job, and aren't able to find a new remote one or a decent in person position in your new low COL location. In which case presumably you could move back to NYC or another high COL city with better job opportunities. So not a total disaster, but I think that is the main risk with what you propose. Pretty much all of my friends (with one exception) who lived in NYC left after having a second kid or if they wanted to buy a house.
It depends on your industry, but this is a real risk to consider. I took this risk (moving from expensive big city to expensive smaller city for quality of life reasons) and so far it has worked out fine, but I'm always aware that there is a ticking bomb underneath it all in terms of the fragility of remote work agreements that could leave me choosing between staying for a local, low-paid job or moving for a higher-paid job. If you had, for example, a mortgage payment that required your remote job salary level, what is the plan if that job ends? Can you afford to sell on short notice to move to where the work is, or do you have the confidence in finding something new and equivalent locally or remote?
posted by Dip Flash at 11:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
It depends on your industry, but this is a real risk to consider. I took this risk (moving from expensive big city to expensive smaller city for quality of life reasons) and so far it has worked out fine, but I'm always aware that there is a ticking bomb underneath it all in terms of the fragility of remote work agreements that could leave me choosing between staying for a local, low-paid job or moving for a higher-paid job. If you had, for example, a mortgage payment that required your remote job salary level, what is the plan if that job ends? Can you afford to sell on short notice to move to where the work is, or do you have the confidence in finding something new and equivalent locally or remote?
posted by Dip Flash at 11:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
One BIG culture shock for me when I moved from a city-state megalopolis to my much smaller current city in NE USA (I still often feel tempted to call it "town"), was a shocking loss of mobility (on a literal day to day basis) due to the lack of public transport and lack of walkability.
Being dependent on a car to get around has hemmed me in, caused me to become extremely house-bound (relatively speaking). Americans always look at me like I am crazy when I say that, because in the American mind, there is nothing more freeing than a car that will take you anywhere anytime. But see, back in the city, if I left my house and walked around for ten minutes, I would have walked past a hundred random pedestrians, twenty shops where I could buy coffee or books or sofas or plants or art, and a dozen street vendors selling anything from milk to ice cream to plastic hooks to hang over my door. Just my own two feet would take me literally anywhere I wanted to be within minutes, because everything was crammed into a small tight area. Contrast with right now, if I want to, say, look at art, I have to get in my car, drive around a bunch of dehumanized & dehumanizing roads whizzing with vehicles, find parking, get out, and walk ten minutes to get from the parking lot to building where the art is kept. I'd be lucky to see even a couple of pedestrians, the whole environment is curiously inanimate: just buildings and trees and vehicles and roads. It gives me a deadened feeling. I never realized how much I depended on signs of life and activity outside my window!
And then if I want to buy milk, I have to do this whole ordeal again. Makes me want to scream! This is the opposite of freedom!
This is ESPECIALLY true for children who cannot drive and/or do not have cars. I weep for my kids' lack of independence, their unfamiliarity with the world outside their sheltered chaperoned spaces, their inability to confidently navigate crowds and unfamiliar spaces. From the age of about 9, I was riding public transport on my own, getting myself to and from school and swimming lessons. It didn't take me long to start going to the library on my own every weekend, and by age 14 I was regularly taking myself on random walks in unfamiliar neighborhoods, discovering used bookshops and buying snacks my parents forbid at home. I never had to depend on my parents for rides. I even got my first job bagging groceries at 16, without even asking my parents permission, so that I could afford movie tickets. My kids can't dream of such independence and freedom, the poor things. They don't know what they're missing out on.
One time when I was 17, I signed up for a 50km overnight bike ride with a huge bunch of other teenagers from schools in my area, and about forty of us rode our bikes all night, for hours and hours, and crashed on the beach at the far end of the city a couple of hours before dawn. Then we all took the first early morning bus, en masse, back home... with our bikes in tow. The buses only had 10 bike racks each, but that was nbd, there was a bus that came by every 10 minutes, so in about half an hour all of us were on our way home. It was *that easy*.
Where I live now, buses come 60 to 90 minutes apart. Organizing such an event for my kids would be a logistical nightmare and a hundred times more expensive from all the chartered transportation and full-time safety chaperoning that would be necessary. Our overnight bike ride didn't require a medic van riding with the cyclists, because we weren't in a remote area and help was always just a few minutes away if we needed it. Our overnight bike ride didn't require a van with supplies and water riding with us, because we were able to stop at 7-11s all along the way. You know??
I'd never have guessed all the small and large ramifications of giving up access to a robust public transport network. Just for that alone, if I could go back in time, I'd tell myself not to give the city up.
posted by MiraK at 11:44 AM on December 28, 2023 [38 favorites]
Being dependent on a car to get around has hemmed me in, caused me to become extremely house-bound (relatively speaking). Americans always look at me like I am crazy when I say that, because in the American mind, there is nothing more freeing than a car that will take you anywhere anytime. But see, back in the city, if I left my house and walked around for ten minutes, I would have walked past a hundred random pedestrians, twenty shops where I could buy coffee or books or sofas or plants or art, and a dozen street vendors selling anything from milk to ice cream to plastic hooks to hang over my door. Just my own two feet would take me literally anywhere I wanted to be within minutes, because everything was crammed into a small tight area. Contrast with right now, if I want to, say, look at art, I have to get in my car, drive around a bunch of dehumanized & dehumanizing roads whizzing with vehicles, find parking, get out, and walk ten minutes to get from the parking lot to building where the art is kept. I'd be lucky to see even a couple of pedestrians, the whole environment is curiously inanimate: just buildings and trees and vehicles and roads. It gives me a deadened feeling. I never realized how much I depended on signs of life and activity outside my window!
And then if I want to buy milk, I have to do this whole ordeal again. Makes me want to scream! This is the opposite of freedom!
This is ESPECIALLY true for children who cannot drive and/or do not have cars. I weep for my kids' lack of independence, their unfamiliarity with the world outside their sheltered chaperoned spaces, their inability to confidently navigate crowds and unfamiliar spaces. From the age of about 9, I was riding public transport on my own, getting myself to and from school and swimming lessons. It didn't take me long to start going to the library on my own every weekend, and by age 14 I was regularly taking myself on random walks in unfamiliar neighborhoods, discovering used bookshops and buying snacks my parents forbid at home. I never had to depend on my parents for rides. I even got my first job bagging groceries at 16, without even asking my parents permission, so that I could afford movie tickets. My kids can't dream of such independence and freedom, the poor things. They don't know what they're missing out on.
One time when I was 17, I signed up for a 50km overnight bike ride with a huge bunch of other teenagers from schools in my area, and about forty of us rode our bikes all night, for hours and hours, and crashed on the beach at the far end of the city a couple of hours before dawn. Then we all took the first early morning bus, en masse, back home... with our bikes in tow. The buses only had 10 bike racks each, but that was nbd, there was a bus that came by every 10 minutes, so in about half an hour all of us were on our way home. It was *that easy*.
Where I live now, buses come 60 to 90 minutes apart. Organizing such an event for my kids would be a logistical nightmare and a hundred times more expensive from all the chartered transportation and full-time safety chaperoning that would be necessary. Our overnight bike ride didn't require a medic van riding with the cyclists, because we weren't in a remote area and help was always just a few minutes away if we needed it. Our overnight bike ride didn't require a van with supplies and water riding with us, because we were able to stop at 7-11s all along the way. You know??
I'd never have guessed all the small and large ramifications of giving up access to a robust public transport network. Just for that alone, if I could go back in time, I'd tell myself not to give the city up.
posted by MiraK at 11:44 AM on December 28, 2023 [38 favorites]
As someone who has lived in NYC as well as a handful of small to mid-sized cities, one thing to consider is just how much you value nature over the benefits of a city. Of the other places I've lived, some eventually felt stifling compared to NYC, while others have (for me anyway) provided enough arts/culture/food with the added benefit of more space/nature. If moving a whole family, I'd want to be pretty sure of the place first. I'd also avoid moving anywhere without any friends - building up a social network later in life isn't impossible, but it's soooo much easier if you know at least a couple of people.
In terms of daycare - I have a number of friends going through this, and a lot of places (even in small cities) have waitlists. That's not a reason not to move, but I'd plan on having to deal with a gap in childcare.
posted by coffeecat at 11:49 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
In terms of daycare - I have a number of friends going through this, and a lot of places (even in small cities) have waitlists. That's not a reason not to move, but I'd plan on having to deal with a gap in childcare.
posted by coffeecat at 11:49 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Jumping in to address your retirement calculator question.
I have used this app RetirePlan to great success, although it's only for tablet or phone, not desktop. (I only use it on my iPad due to the extra screen space). It is ideal for someone like me who is a visual learner and whose math skills are suspect.
Ultimately, this is the sort of thing that financial planners do, and if you ever go that route, I suggest getting an independent one (i.e. a planner who charges flat fees and has no conflict of interest regarding investment advice). You don't have to engage in a long-term relationship with them, most will be happy to book a few hours to walk through scenarios with you and be a reality check or simply point out things you may have missed.
For me, I started with RetirePlan and after I got as far as I could, I exported the data into the traditional spreadsheet format, handed it over to the planner so our conversation was very efficient.
posted by jeremias at 12:33 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have used this app RetirePlan to great success, although it's only for tablet or phone, not desktop. (I only use it on my iPad due to the extra screen space). It is ideal for someone like me who is a visual learner and whose math skills are suspect.
has anyone found a retirement calculator that let's you account for different costs of living and income ranges over time?)The way you do this on RetirePlan is to create two or more "scenarios" that each have the specific data you're forecasting, then you can compare and contrast. It's as basic or thorough as you want to make it, for example, the advanced options are categories such as "simulate a market crash at age 65" or "downsize house", "send children to college", "lose job", etc.
Ultimately, this is the sort of thing that financial planners do, and if you ever go that route, I suggest getting an independent one (i.e. a planner who charges flat fees and has no conflict of interest regarding investment advice). You don't have to engage in a long-term relationship with them, most will be happy to book a few hours to walk through scenarios with you and be a reality check or simply point out things you may have missed.
For me, I started with RetirePlan and after I got as far as I could, I exported the data into the traditional spreadsheet format, handed it over to the planner so our conversation was very efficient.
posted by jeremias at 12:33 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
The stroller years are short, but the years when you're stuck with your kid's school cohort are long. Personally I would want that cohort to be diverse people many of whom share my general social values. I know I could find that in NYC, not so sure if I could find it in most pretty mountain towns though.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:40 PM on December 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:40 PM on December 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
You say you can break even on less, but if that's based solely on the assumption that childcare costs will go down but everything else will stay constant, I'd question whether there are other financial adjustments that you aren't accounting for. There are some expenses, for example, that are more palatable on a 150K salary that aren't dependent on the local cost of living -- like streaming services, subscriptions, etc. You also don't mention if the benefits in the offered role are comparable in cost and coverage.
posted by sm1tten at 1:25 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by sm1tten at 1:25 PM on December 28, 2023
I wouldn't factor the child care savings too heavily into your calculations-- or else I'd suggest doing some very in-depth research and math. How much will child care actually cost in the new location? (Sure, it probably won't be $3000/month for infants and toddlers, but it could easily be $2000/month.) How do the costs compare for 3 and 4 year olds-- is there universal free public Pre-K bringing down the costs or not? And then it will only be a few short years until they're in kindergarten, and the only price difference you'll be benefiting from anymore is maybe a little on before/aftercare or camps. There's a good chance you'll come out significantly financially behind, probably even the first couple of years but almost certainly once one or both kids are preschool-aged.
That said, if you're willing and able to take the financial hit because you think you and your family will be happier, then go for it!
posted by EmilyClimbs at 1:41 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
That said, if you're willing and able to take the financial hit because you think you and your family will be happier, then go for it!
posted by EmilyClimbs at 1:41 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
This has been hit on a few times, but for strictly dollars and cents, I find that a lot of people leaving the city neglect to calculate how much car ownership costs. Not only for one car, but for two if your lifestyle ends up requiring it. Maybe even three down the line when those kids learn to drive. There's all sorts of non-monetary costs to this too, such as how much harder and more time consuming it will be to get around.
Also, home ownership. If you're going from renting to owning, suddenly you'll be on the hook for the cost of maintaining a home. Even on a modest home, this can be thousands of dollars per year.
posted by soy_renfield at 2:03 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, home ownership. If you're going from renting to owning, suddenly you'll be on the hook for the cost of maintaining a home. Even on a modest home, this can be thousands of dollars per year.
posted by soy_renfield at 2:03 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
As a person who left NYC to live in a variety of different rural, semi-rural, and smaller urban areas over the last 5 years, I totally agree that cars and everything that comes along with them are a huge difference in how I live. I'd also encourage you to think about how you currently eat -- you may go somewhere without many options for restaurants, little to no opportunity for takeout/food delivery, and/or a weird grocery store situation that means you have to travel farther/think much harder about getting decent groceries. It really depends on where you're considering, but these can all contribute significantly to lifestyle changes/budget changes (in both directions!). Likewise, entertainment and hobbies might really change -- you will inevitably do more at home because there's less to do out and about. This may mean you save a ton of money, it may mean you drive/travel more often to do the things you already love, it may mean you get into random stuff at home that involves different costs. Just depends on who you are and what you like, but worth considering a bit.
On the job/salary front, I would make sure that the benefit package is on par with what you currently have and that you're not going to be taking on more expenses for your own health insurance in the new role. Different companies offer different benefit structures, and they can amount to thousands of dollars annually for a family if you're expected to carry more of the costs (for premiums or higher deductible plans) at one employer vs. another. Your tax situation might also change a bit if you're currently putting a bunch of retirement money away pre-tax but you stop doing that because you don't have the same amount of extra cushion, thus impacting your AGI.
posted by luzdeluna at 2:52 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
On the job/salary front, I would make sure that the benefit package is on par with what you currently have and that you're not going to be taking on more expenses for your own health insurance in the new role. Different companies offer different benefit structures, and they can amount to thousands of dollars annually for a family if you're expected to carry more of the costs (for premiums or higher deductible plans) at one employer vs. another. Your tax situation might also change a bit if you're currently putting a bunch of retirement money away pre-tax but you stop doing that because you don't have the same amount of extra cushion, thus impacting your AGI.
posted by luzdeluna at 2:52 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
> (think nature, outdoor activities, family friendly things to do, etc.).
For kids, it is best if they can actually literally walk to school, afterschool activities, a corner store for a popsicle, a library, and a park.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:58 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
For kids, it is best if they can actually literally walk to school, afterschool activities, a corner store for a popsicle, a library, and a park.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:58 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
When I saw your question I assumed it would be maybe $20k lower. That’s a huge pay cut. I would look for remote work around 80% of your current pay before I’d consider it.
posted by bbqturtle at 3:21 PM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by bbqturtle at 3:21 PM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't have all the answers, but want to add things to think about:
If you want to stay in New England or upstate New York, remember that If you move to New Hampshire, there is no state income tax, which will help you economically
I'm not sure if any in New England do this, but see if there's "voluntary Pre-K" (VPK) which Florida has, which basically provides some pre-kindergarten "school" for three and four year olds, it may be free. My kids are 44 and up so I'm not up on VPK.
Also remember that from anywhere in New England, except some northern sections of Maine, and from parts of upstate New York, you can get to Boston and NYC pretty easily, and also other places like Philadelphia and Washington DC by train without too much effort, so you can have those historical and cultural experiences when you want.
posted by TimHare at 3:40 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you want to stay in New England or upstate New York, remember that If you move to New Hampshire, there is no state income tax, which will help you economically
I'm not sure if any in New England do this, but see if there's "voluntary Pre-K" (VPK) which Florida has, which basically provides some pre-kindergarten "school" for three and four year olds, it may be free. My kids are 44 and up so I'm not up on VPK.
Also remember that from anywhere in New England, except some northern sections of Maine, and from parts of upstate New York, you can get to Boston and NYC pretty easily, and also other places like Philadelphia and Washington DC by train without too much effort, so you can have those historical and cultural experiences when you want.
posted by TimHare at 3:40 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would look at the cost of health insurance at your new job vs your current one. My last job only covered health insurance for myself, my current one pays 100% for my whole family. Honestly, the difference in cost to me is like having a whole other paycheck.
posted by Toddles at 4:59 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Toddles at 4:59 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't have kids, but I disliked living in NYC for what sounds like similar reasons as you. Moving away to a college town, about 30 min from a national park, was hands down the best decision of my career. I left that town a few years ago for a different job opportunity, but I would jump at the chance to go back "home."
People have covered a lot of the logistics above, but the thing that surprised me most when I decided to leave NYC was how damn judgy people were. You have to be ok with the perceived lack of prestige. For me, the move was a major upgrade in quality of life, but still I was ill-prepared for the sheer number of unsolicited "why???" comments from mentors, colleagues, random acquaintances.
posted by basalganglia at 5:23 PM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
People have covered a lot of the logistics above, but the thing that surprised me most when I decided to leave NYC was how damn judgy people were. You have to be ok with the perceived lack of prestige. For me, the move was a major upgrade in quality of life, but still I was ill-prepared for the sheer number of unsolicited "why???" comments from mentors, colleagues, random acquaintances.
posted by basalganglia at 5:23 PM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
I live in NH and a lot of people moving here from a big city have some surprise at the lack of availability of things. Like Lyft/Uber are unreliable. You often can't get a ride. Restaurants/bars close early comparatively. Service based appointments can't be spontaneous. If you want a haircut or nails done you best make an appointment. Even things like dentists are becoming harder to schedule as many are not accepting new patients.
Daycare in my area is very tricky as well. Most of the centers have long waiting lists.Cost of daycare has also gone up. I'm paying ~$900/month for my 3 year old and we go to one of the cheaper places. If something happened and we wanted to change the other 2 places I have recently priced are $1200-1800/month.
posted by MadMadam at 5:59 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Daycare in my area is very tricky as well. Most of the centers have long waiting lists.Cost of daycare has also gone up. I'm paying ~$900/month for my 3 year old and we go to one of the cheaper places. If something happened and we wanted to change the other 2 places I have recently priced are $1200-1800/month.
posted by MadMadam at 5:59 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I live in NH and a lot of people moving here from a big city have some surprise at the lack of availability of things. Like Lyft/Uber are unreliable. You often can't get a ride. Restaurants/bars close early comparatively. Service based appointments can't be spontaneous. If you want a haircut or nails done you best make an appointment. Even things like dentists are becoming harder to schedule as many are not accepting new patients.
I'm a very long way from the northeast, but here in my smaller city this is all very true. Uber runs sometimes, but sometimes there are no drivers or they just don't show up. Nightlife is limited. Most doctors are fully booked and aren't accepting new patients. For any given model of car, there is at most one dealer and they are mostly low-volume, high-price dealers, so if you want a deal you are traveling. Vets are mostly fully booked. And so on.
It's still very much a net positive quality life decision for us, but it's good to be honest about the tradeoffs. There are times I miss the 24/7 activity and availability of services for sure.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm a very long way from the northeast, but here in my smaller city this is all very true. Uber runs sometimes, but sometimes there are no drivers or they just don't show up. Nightlife is limited. Most doctors are fully booked and aren't accepting new patients. For any given model of car, there is at most one dealer and they are mostly low-volume, high-price dealers, so if you want a deal you are traveling. Vets are mostly fully booked. And so on.
It's still very much a net positive quality life decision for us, but it's good to be honest about the tradeoffs. There are times I miss the 24/7 activity and availability of services for sure.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
You will have fewer (sometimes only one) options for many services. If you don't like your orthodontist/therapist/PT/tae kwon do instructor etc. there might not be another one for miles. With kids, especially, you will have a ton of these appointments.
posted by airmail at 8:34 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by airmail at 8:34 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Quality of life in a denser, culturally rich New England or upstate New York town can be amazing. So don't overweigh the drawbacks. I have never been happier with a residence than when I lived in Portsmouth, NH, (I am from the New York area). I know what I gave up - the late night businesses, the need to drive - but also know it was worth it. If you can, prioritize finding a place in a town that you and your kids can walk around to downtown, parks, farmers' market, etc. That makes all the difference. Moving to an outer suburb where you have to drive for literally everything is a big change and that's a lifestyle you might not take to as well. But being in a robust town in New England you're never more than an hour or so from some gorgeous outdoor stuff - and these places aren't cultural deserts. They have music, theatre, art, and stuff like bigger places, and you'll find the culture is more participatory than spectator-oriented. There are many things for you and your kids to get involved in. They will have opportunities they could never compete for in a big city.
One thing to factor into the financial picture is the cost of commuting. When I was commuting to work in Manhattan the total of fares and random Ubers when I was in a rush and ancillary things I needed because of commuting was around $7200 a year right there. You save a lot by not paying fares.
If you're going from renting to owning, that's another huge gain despite offsetting maintenance. You're paying yourself by building up equity so your assets grow every month.
posted by Miko at 7:25 AM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
One thing to factor into the financial picture is the cost of commuting. When I was commuting to work in Manhattan the total of fares and random Ubers when I was in a rush and ancillary things I needed because of commuting was around $7200 a year right there. You save a lot by not paying fares.
If you're going from renting to owning, that's another huge gain despite offsetting maintenance. You're paying yourself by building up equity so your assets grow every month.
posted by Miko at 7:25 AM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, childcare costs for young kids are up a lot since 2020 and the pricing for 2 under 3 is bananas...the average in my neighborhood is $3k/month/kid!
You’re talking a $60,000 pay cut to save $72,000 on city daycare, but you’re going to have to pay daycare where you’re going too.
$3k/month/kid works out to $100/day, or $12/hr/kid. Even if you could cut that to $3/hr/kid you’re still looking at $18,000 a year on day care, and as there is little competition you might not like what you get.
In addition, speaking as someone who has moved from very expensive to far cheaper then you’ll find in the U.S., the consumer good prices everywhere are largely tied to Amazon. There are services you’ll be able to get cheaper but once again without competition you may not be happy with what you get. In any case your costs are not going to drop nearly as much as your salary.
If you’re really going to go this route, I would strongly suggest A) going and looking at the daycare situation immediately, and B) really looking at what K-12 means with a much smaller tax base and it’s outcomes in terms of getting into universities, etc. There’s always private school — or is there if you’re commuting 45 minutes there and back every day?
Living in NYC you are used to having a lot of options, and in turn with those options competing with each other, a level of service that you may not be able to get in a much smaller town. Research carefully, not just for today but for the next 18 years of child-rearing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:25 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
You’re talking a $60,000 pay cut to save $72,000 on city daycare, but you’re going to have to pay daycare where you’re going too.
$3k/month/kid works out to $100/day, or $12/hr/kid. Even if you could cut that to $3/hr/kid you’re still looking at $18,000 a year on day care, and as there is little competition you might not like what you get.
In addition, speaking as someone who has moved from very expensive to far cheaper then you’ll find in the U.S., the consumer good prices everywhere are largely tied to Amazon. There are services you’ll be able to get cheaper but once again without competition you may not be happy with what you get. In any case your costs are not going to drop nearly as much as your salary.
If you’re really going to go this route, I would strongly suggest A) going and looking at the daycare situation immediately, and B) really looking at what K-12 means with a much smaller tax base and it’s outcomes in terms of getting into universities, etc. There’s always private school — or is there if you’re commuting 45 minutes there and back every day?
Living in NYC you are used to having a lot of options, and in turn with those options competing with each other, a level of service that you may not be able to get in a much smaller town. Research carefully, not just for today but for the next 18 years of child-rearing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:25 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The logistics of raising multiple kids in NYC is no joke and the costs are so high. That said, as they get older some things become less expensive that you wouldn't find in the suburbs. First, 3k and 4k are free! Second, free school breakfast and lunch for all kids and, in our neighborhood free afterschool and summer care by lottery. Third, my oldest is now able to navigate the neighborhood herself, go to the library or sports on her own after school, which is incredibly freeing for her and her friends. The educational opportunities for kids are really incredible here once they hit about age 9.
While I do sometimes wish for the school bus and no stroller, I personally would not move to a more rural area for a remote job if my family relied on the income. It is too likely to be outsourced.
posted by luckdragon at 7:39 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
While I do sometimes wish for the school bus and no stroller, I personally would not move to a more rural area for a remote job if my family relied on the income. It is too likely to be outsourced.
posted by luckdragon at 7:39 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I grew up mostly in small towns in the northeast, and have also lived in larger cities (not NYC though). I find I need easy access to wilderness (not just nature) for full happiness. But I would still likely not take a remote job at only 60% of my present salary - I’d hold out and look for something a bit better.
Folks above have mentioned most of the relevant issues. Child care is just less available, family doctors are harder to find in rural areas and you may have a wait for getting a new family doctor (or just longer wait times in general for health care), school experience can be very hit-or-miss (true everywhere, but supplementary activities or supports that could ameliorate a less-great school experience may be less available), and car-centrism can be an issue. (My parents found living in a rural area with two kids under three and only one or no car to be infeasible, even with my uncles just up the road a few miles, so we moved into town and then lived in towns when I was still a baby. Even when we did have a car, my father needed it for work, so it was not available for my mother to run errands or anything with kids. So we started walking on our own when we were three, and my mother had a kid backpack carrier for when one of us was under three and the other was three. Yes, we walked all day, through the side stitches, because we had no other choice. We got good at walking and became active, healthy kids, but there were likely easier ways to accomplish that had my parents had other options.) Kid-friendly restaurants may still be out in suburbs or around mall areas (requiring car), and there will be fewer options. Towns within commuting distance of Boston (including stops on the Amtrak Downeaster line) have almost-Boston real estate prices and rents. Grocery stores will not carry nearly the same variety of foods, and will be more expensive (no cheap Asian or Mexican grocery available). Aside from running around out in the woods if you move to a place with access to woods, or the books and media available from the local library, there will be no regular free entertainment options (just special occasions, like Fourth of July concerts). College towns will have more culinary, cultural, and free entertainment options and better schools, but are also more expensive and will potentially have longer wait lists for early child care and family doctors.
On the plus side, many towns will have decent local libraries (especially in Maine, where a state lawsuit many years ago now against the telephone company for over-charging customers awarded funds that the state invested in libraries, and in particular in getting good internet access for every library in the state). And Boston and its museums are a feasible weekend day trip from a number of more affordable areas in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut (drive to an outer train or commuter rail station to park, then use the T to get around in Boston). Providence, RI also has some good cultural opportunities, and the nearby area is maybe slightly less expensive than the immediate Boston area? In upstate New York, Ithaca and Albany are cultural centers, and there are some quite affordable towns on the stretch between Albany and Poughkeepsie, for which day trips to NYC on weekends would also be feasible. You can also find many more diverse towns (though tend to be more concentrated in the towns, not the rural areas), eg. in that section of upstate New York, in eastern Massachusetts and parts of Connecticut and Rhode Island, or areas where US Immigration has encouraged refugee resettlement, such as Lewiston, Maine.
posted by eviemath at 8:37 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Folks above have mentioned most of the relevant issues. Child care is just less available, family doctors are harder to find in rural areas and you may have a wait for getting a new family doctor (or just longer wait times in general for health care), school experience can be very hit-or-miss (true everywhere, but supplementary activities or supports that could ameliorate a less-great school experience may be less available), and car-centrism can be an issue. (My parents found living in a rural area with two kids under three and only one or no car to be infeasible, even with my uncles just up the road a few miles, so we moved into town and then lived in towns when I was still a baby. Even when we did have a car, my father needed it for work, so it was not available for my mother to run errands or anything with kids. So we started walking on our own when we were three, and my mother had a kid backpack carrier for when one of us was under three and the other was three. Yes, we walked all day, through the side stitches, because we had no other choice. We got good at walking and became active, healthy kids, but there were likely easier ways to accomplish that had my parents had other options.) Kid-friendly restaurants may still be out in suburbs or around mall areas (requiring car), and there will be fewer options. Towns within commuting distance of Boston (including stops on the Amtrak Downeaster line) have almost-Boston real estate prices and rents. Grocery stores will not carry nearly the same variety of foods, and will be more expensive (no cheap Asian or Mexican grocery available). Aside from running around out in the woods if you move to a place with access to woods, or the books and media available from the local library, there will be no regular free entertainment options (just special occasions, like Fourth of July concerts). College towns will have more culinary, cultural, and free entertainment options and better schools, but are also more expensive and will potentially have longer wait lists for early child care and family doctors.
On the plus side, many towns will have decent local libraries (especially in Maine, where a state lawsuit many years ago now against the telephone company for over-charging customers awarded funds that the state invested in libraries, and in particular in getting good internet access for every library in the state). And Boston and its museums are a feasible weekend day trip from a number of more affordable areas in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut (drive to an outer train or commuter rail station to park, then use the T to get around in Boston). Providence, RI also has some good cultural opportunities, and the nearby area is maybe slightly less expensive than the immediate Boston area? In upstate New York, Ithaca and Albany are cultural centers, and there are some quite affordable towns on the stretch between Albany and Poughkeepsie, for which day trips to NYC on weekends would also be feasible. You can also find many more diverse towns (though tend to be more concentrated in the towns, not the rural areas), eg. in that section of upstate New York, in eastern Massachusetts and parts of Connecticut and Rhode Island, or areas where US Immigration has encouraged refugee resettlement, such as Lewiston, Maine.
posted by eviemath at 8:37 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:43 AM on December 28, 2023 [18 favorites]