How to cope with an “out of control” parent?
December 23, 2023 11:52 PM Subscribe
I’m in therapy, and my therapist is great. But sometimes I feel like I’m really circling the drain. I think I’m somewhat looking for a listening ear, and someone who’s been through it before.
My mom has always been very emotionally needy and self-absorbed. She has a penchant for jealousy and envy, and I have memories of her snapping at me when I achieved something or got external praise as early as when I was five years old. One of her parents was extremely abusive and she has a lot of issues, most of which I struggle to understand even after years of therapy.
I was the “golden child,” with several younger siblings. Most of my childhood and adolescence were about trying very hard and in vain to meet her needs. My parents got a divorce when I was in junior high and she remarried a guy she met on the Internet, who turned out to be an abusive porn addict. I knew way too many details about this at a young age, and she expected me to rescue her from the situation. I got her domestic violence resources (a case worker), recruited a friend’s parents to help me, helped arrange her move out of his home with the police, etc. We got her out of the situation, but she did eventually go back. I know now that this is very common in domestic violence scenarios, but the degree to which she enlisted me (a teenager) to be “the hero” was, in retrospect, the most challenging part.
Despite knowing, and telling me that he was physically abusive, and honestly quite inappropriate with his own daughters, she wanted us all to live with her hours away from our childhood home. She got my younger sisters to move in with her in what was a three-year period of them being exposed to a lot of things they shouldn’t have been. She enrolled my sister in a school for kids with behavioral issues, somehow, despite the fact that my sister had no behavioral issues, because my sister wanted to go to school with her friends, who bragged that they only had to go to class three times a week. Generally her parenting was very neglectful and selfish in this way.
Several years ago we found out (through my sibling) that one of her relatives had sexually abused one of my siblings many times over the course of many years. My mom said all the right things, but continued to spend time with this relative, and in a very short period of time, began spinning the situation to be about how difficult it was for her to lose this relative, and how we were all ganging up on her and bullying her. Most of my siblings gave up on her at this point. But the conditioning is strong, and we all still kind of make believe that we have some kind of superficial relationship.
She’s always been quite “helpless” and childlike. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve seen beyond the veil a bit, enough to realize that she is not in fact a child but does become quite cruel and petty when she is angry. She is generally angry when me, or one of my siblings isn’t going along with her agenda, which involves attention for her, whenever she is not preoccupied with a man.
After she left the aforementioned abusive spouse, she remarried a new guy who is financially abusive/irresponsible, gambles most of their money away (with her) and is frequently on drugs. He pretty consistently seems like he’s tweaking. His drug addict friends have robbed their house and stolen my sisters personal belongings. (She lives with them now and I worry about her all the time.)
I got quite angry with her as a teenager and persisted in being very angry for many many years, until the last few years when I found a therapist I really clicked with, who helped me locate the root of my anger. Much of it was about the degree to which my mom wanted me to abandon myself and never set a boundary, so that taking care of myself or others made me “a very bad person.” I’m still angry at her for many other reasons, of course, but I also see that she is thoroughly messed up.
Recently, things have come to a head in a way I did not expect. Her addict husband adopted a dog. I have no idea whether the dog or the breed is somehow intrinsically violent, but the dog did become violent as it got older. It mauled at least five people, none of them critically injured, but most of them going to the emergency room and getting stitches. Several people reported this to the police, who told them they would need to address it, but they never did, and there was no follow up. Having a violent dog and not attempting to do some thing about it was bad enough, but my very young niece was living with them at the time, and we were all constantly worried about her. On top of that, most of the people who were injured by the dog had no idea there was a violent dog on the premises when they were invited over, because my mom and her husband’s preferred way of doing things is to pretend that they are not happening, and endanger everyone else in the process.
What came to a head is that recently, while having holiday visitors, the dog mauled another person whose family called the police. This time the dog charged the police and the officers maced it several times. That didn’t work, so they shot the dog in the face. The dogs somehow lived with a bullet lodged in his nose, gurgling blood every time he breathed. Finally, the police stated consequences they could understand, which was that they would either have to put the dog down, or pay for very expensive insurance. Since her husband is fundamentally self-absorbed and worried about his own pocketbook, he didn’t want to pay the insurance, and finally put the dog down since it was more expensive to keep alive.
My mom tried to spin this to all of us that he had finally “seen the light” and didn’t want to hurt anyone else, etc. etc. Obviously, her husband doesn’t give a shit and is just out of his fucking mind. But she always creates a little story to maintaining the status quo, and this is the story for now.
But I think this time I am SO angry, I really just can’t even speak to her. She’s been putting on a “poor me” routine, and pretending that we’re all neglecting her. Well, maybe we are neglecting her. From speaking to all of my sisters sporadically over the last couple weeks, we’ve all been triggered by the situation and are kind of spiraling. She is attempting to buddy up to us and lovebomb us now that the dog situation is “resolved.” But it came to such a violent and disturbing end that I don’t think any of us can really cope.
Of course, I still feel guilty for ignoring her. And yet there’s just this cold wall of anger I have toward her now. One of my family members who I am closest with was mauled by the dog, without having any idea whatsoever that this dog had any behavioral issues. No one was warned, and I think I finally see that it is just generally unsafe to be around my mother, emotionally and physically. It’s not even that I don’t want to be around her. I just don’t feel I can be around her and be safe.
Every time I think about it, I just get livid again. And yet I can’t tell her to her face that I need space from her and the decisions that she makes. It feels overwhelming to say something so direct. I know that a huge part of that is that I don’t count in the relationship. My feelings have never mattered or been a priority. And I’m pretty sure that if I speak on them, even in the most measured and sensitive of terms, it will be an unforgivable rift. She will never meet me in the middle. I always have to bend to her needs.
So this whole situation has been going on for over a month at this point. My therapist really has been a great help, but I find it hard to even reach out to her for additional help even when she says that I am free to set up more appointments. My partner understands the situation and he helps me talk through things and just feel safe being with another person who doesn’t want me to be in danger. But it’s like I can’t move on. I feel very stuck, and like the actual conditions of my life are not sustainable. The cognitive dissonance between playing nice to her face, and feeling like I absolutely cannot being around this dangerous, out of control person is too much.
When the sexual abuse allegations came out several years ago, I felt very similarly. Everyone who had been personally affected had known for years and pretended like things were fine, which of course, is common. But once I found out, I tried to mirror their behavior for about one family holiday, and had essentially a panic attack and a mini nervous break down afterward, and just ghosted that entire side of the family. I don’t regret it (though I had to grieve it) because they are all pretending like nothing happened, and whitewashing the abuse. So I don’t feel I am obligated to have a relationship with them. But I could never say anything to their face. I can only run away.
Anyway. I just feel so tired of dealing with this bullshit. I feel like I’m fighting my nervous system all the time, and just wants to flee and fawn. I know that these are C-PTSD reactions that are somewhat out of my control. But it’s still hard to just be stuck in one place, reliving it. Feeling like I will always be this person who can’t get free. As I’m writing this, I’m realizing I haven’t read about C-PTSD in years, and it’s probably time to revisit it. Because I feel a lot of shame about the fleeing / fawning.
Anyway, I feel like I’m just saying all of this because I need outside perspective, or something to help me shake loose. In a way, I feel like shit that I can’t even blame my mom because her upbringing was so terrible, and if she has some kind of personality disorder, I can see where it came from. And yet I’m so angry at her for not loving and protecting her children. My therapist asked me a while back if I felt like she loved me. And I really had to pause and think, and all I could say was “ I don’t know.” By contrast, my dad has issues, and we used to fight a lot, but I’ve always felt like he loved me. Often I feel like it’s my own flaw that I cannot feel the love from my mother. I keep wondering if I should blame her more, or less, be angry, not be angry, etc. And I know I just need to feel my feelings. But my feelings have just been “anger” for so long, and now the hot anger has become this cold, placid, unbearable anger.
I’m angry that she has manipulated me for so many years. Obviously, I was blind to it, as her child. But as I get older and heal more, she often seems completely unhinged to me. She just pinballs from thought process to thought process with no consistency or logic. It feels crazy and crazy making and I can’t believe I lived trying to make sense of it for so many years.
I don’t really have a tidy conclusion here because I am still spiraling. But any thoughts or shared experiences would be helpful at this time, I think. Thank you for reading.
My mom has always been very emotionally needy and self-absorbed. She has a penchant for jealousy and envy, and I have memories of her snapping at me when I achieved something or got external praise as early as when I was five years old. One of her parents was extremely abusive and she has a lot of issues, most of which I struggle to understand even after years of therapy.
I was the “golden child,” with several younger siblings. Most of my childhood and adolescence were about trying very hard and in vain to meet her needs. My parents got a divorce when I was in junior high and she remarried a guy she met on the Internet, who turned out to be an abusive porn addict. I knew way too many details about this at a young age, and she expected me to rescue her from the situation. I got her domestic violence resources (a case worker), recruited a friend’s parents to help me, helped arrange her move out of his home with the police, etc. We got her out of the situation, but she did eventually go back. I know now that this is very common in domestic violence scenarios, but the degree to which she enlisted me (a teenager) to be “the hero” was, in retrospect, the most challenging part.
Despite knowing, and telling me that he was physically abusive, and honestly quite inappropriate with his own daughters, she wanted us all to live with her hours away from our childhood home. She got my younger sisters to move in with her in what was a three-year period of them being exposed to a lot of things they shouldn’t have been. She enrolled my sister in a school for kids with behavioral issues, somehow, despite the fact that my sister had no behavioral issues, because my sister wanted to go to school with her friends, who bragged that they only had to go to class three times a week. Generally her parenting was very neglectful and selfish in this way.
Several years ago we found out (through my sibling) that one of her relatives had sexually abused one of my siblings many times over the course of many years. My mom said all the right things, but continued to spend time with this relative, and in a very short period of time, began spinning the situation to be about how difficult it was for her to lose this relative, and how we were all ganging up on her and bullying her. Most of my siblings gave up on her at this point. But the conditioning is strong, and we all still kind of make believe that we have some kind of superficial relationship.
She’s always been quite “helpless” and childlike. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve seen beyond the veil a bit, enough to realize that she is not in fact a child but does become quite cruel and petty when she is angry. She is generally angry when me, or one of my siblings isn’t going along with her agenda, which involves attention for her, whenever she is not preoccupied with a man.
After she left the aforementioned abusive spouse, she remarried a new guy who is financially abusive/irresponsible, gambles most of their money away (with her) and is frequently on drugs. He pretty consistently seems like he’s tweaking. His drug addict friends have robbed their house and stolen my sisters personal belongings. (She lives with them now and I worry about her all the time.)
I got quite angry with her as a teenager and persisted in being very angry for many many years, until the last few years when I found a therapist I really clicked with, who helped me locate the root of my anger. Much of it was about the degree to which my mom wanted me to abandon myself and never set a boundary, so that taking care of myself or others made me “a very bad person.” I’m still angry at her for many other reasons, of course, but I also see that she is thoroughly messed up.
Recently, things have come to a head in a way I did not expect. Her addict husband adopted a dog. I have no idea whether the dog or the breed is somehow intrinsically violent, but the dog did become violent as it got older. It mauled at least five people, none of them critically injured, but most of them going to the emergency room and getting stitches. Several people reported this to the police, who told them they would need to address it, but they never did, and there was no follow up. Having a violent dog and not attempting to do some thing about it was bad enough, but my very young niece was living with them at the time, and we were all constantly worried about her. On top of that, most of the people who were injured by the dog had no idea there was a violent dog on the premises when they were invited over, because my mom and her husband’s preferred way of doing things is to pretend that they are not happening, and endanger everyone else in the process.
What came to a head is that recently, while having holiday visitors, the dog mauled another person whose family called the police. This time the dog charged the police and the officers maced it several times. That didn’t work, so they shot the dog in the face. The dogs somehow lived with a bullet lodged in his nose, gurgling blood every time he breathed. Finally, the police stated consequences they could understand, which was that they would either have to put the dog down, or pay for very expensive insurance. Since her husband is fundamentally self-absorbed and worried about his own pocketbook, he didn’t want to pay the insurance, and finally put the dog down since it was more expensive to keep alive.
My mom tried to spin this to all of us that he had finally “seen the light” and didn’t want to hurt anyone else, etc. etc. Obviously, her husband doesn’t give a shit and is just out of his fucking mind. But she always creates a little story to maintaining the status quo, and this is the story for now.
But I think this time I am SO angry, I really just can’t even speak to her. She’s been putting on a “poor me” routine, and pretending that we’re all neglecting her. Well, maybe we are neglecting her. From speaking to all of my sisters sporadically over the last couple weeks, we’ve all been triggered by the situation and are kind of spiraling. She is attempting to buddy up to us and lovebomb us now that the dog situation is “resolved.” But it came to such a violent and disturbing end that I don’t think any of us can really cope.
Of course, I still feel guilty for ignoring her. And yet there’s just this cold wall of anger I have toward her now. One of my family members who I am closest with was mauled by the dog, without having any idea whatsoever that this dog had any behavioral issues. No one was warned, and I think I finally see that it is just generally unsafe to be around my mother, emotionally and physically. It’s not even that I don’t want to be around her. I just don’t feel I can be around her and be safe.
Every time I think about it, I just get livid again. And yet I can’t tell her to her face that I need space from her and the decisions that she makes. It feels overwhelming to say something so direct. I know that a huge part of that is that I don’t count in the relationship. My feelings have never mattered or been a priority. And I’m pretty sure that if I speak on them, even in the most measured and sensitive of terms, it will be an unforgivable rift. She will never meet me in the middle. I always have to bend to her needs.
So this whole situation has been going on for over a month at this point. My therapist really has been a great help, but I find it hard to even reach out to her for additional help even when she says that I am free to set up more appointments. My partner understands the situation and he helps me talk through things and just feel safe being with another person who doesn’t want me to be in danger. But it’s like I can’t move on. I feel very stuck, and like the actual conditions of my life are not sustainable. The cognitive dissonance between playing nice to her face, and feeling like I absolutely cannot being around this dangerous, out of control person is too much.
When the sexual abuse allegations came out several years ago, I felt very similarly. Everyone who had been personally affected had known for years and pretended like things were fine, which of course, is common. But once I found out, I tried to mirror their behavior for about one family holiday, and had essentially a panic attack and a mini nervous break down afterward, and just ghosted that entire side of the family. I don’t regret it (though I had to grieve it) because they are all pretending like nothing happened, and whitewashing the abuse. So I don’t feel I am obligated to have a relationship with them. But I could never say anything to their face. I can only run away.
Anyway. I just feel so tired of dealing with this bullshit. I feel like I’m fighting my nervous system all the time, and just wants to flee and fawn. I know that these are C-PTSD reactions that are somewhat out of my control. But it’s still hard to just be stuck in one place, reliving it. Feeling like I will always be this person who can’t get free. As I’m writing this, I’m realizing I haven’t read about C-PTSD in years, and it’s probably time to revisit it. Because I feel a lot of shame about the fleeing / fawning.
Anyway, I feel like I’m just saying all of this because I need outside perspective, or something to help me shake loose. In a way, I feel like shit that I can’t even blame my mom because her upbringing was so terrible, and if she has some kind of personality disorder, I can see where it came from. And yet I’m so angry at her for not loving and protecting her children. My therapist asked me a while back if I felt like she loved me. And I really had to pause and think, and all I could say was “ I don’t know.” By contrast, my dad has issues, and we used to fight a lot, but I’ve always felt like he loved me. Often I feel like it’s my own flaw that I cannot feel the love from my mother. I keep wondering if I should blame her more, or less, be angry, not be angry, etc. And I know I just need to feel my feelings. But my feelings have just been “anger” for so long, and now the hot anger has become this cold, placid, unbearable anger.
I’m angry that she has manipulated me for so many years. Obviously, I was blind to it, as her child. But as I get older and heal more, she often seems completely unhinged to me. She just pinballs from thought process to thought process with no consistency or logic. It feels crazy and crazy making and I can’t believe I lived trying to make sense of it for so many years.
I don’t really have a tidy conclusion here because I am still spiraling. But any thoughts or shared experiences would be helpful at this time, I think. Thank you for reading.
I'm really sorry to hear this has happened to you. I suffer from a unreliable yet controlling narcissistic parent that I tried to placate for many years.
I have found the subreddits r/raisedbynarcissists and r/estrangedadultkids helpful for resources and a listening ear. Unfortunately, I have found that people with a stable upbringing and secure attachments simply don't get that parents can be so abusive. And it's not their fault.
What are you getting out of this relationship? Why do you have to save her? Can you put on your own mask before helping others? Even if you were handling the situation "perfectly", would you be able to be okay with your mom's reactions? I suggest you try to find someone specialised in family trauma, it sounds like your therapist isn't serving you in the way you need right now.
I'm currently doing a lot of therapy and no contact. It sucks because it has cut me off from my dad and my siblings, who are all very enmeshed,, but it feels much easier to breathe now.
posted by socky_puppy at 12:26 AM on December 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have found the subreddits r/raisedbynarcissists and r/estrangedadultkids helpful for resources and a listening ear. Unfortunately, I have found that people with a stable upbringing and secure attachments simply don't get that parents can be so abusive. And it's not their fault.
What are you getting out of this relationship? Why do you have to save her? Can you put on your own mask before helping others? Even if you were handling the situation "perfectly", would you be able to be okay with your mom's reactions? I suggest you try to find someone specialised in family trauma, it sounds like your therapist isn't serving you in the way you need right now.
I'm currently doing a lot of therapy and no contact. It sucks because it has cut me off from my dad and my siblings, who are all very enmeshed,, but it feels much easier to breathe now.
posted by socky_puppy at 12:26 AM on December 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
A pattern I notice in your post is that you seem to feel that it's wrong to cut a person out of your life without directly informing them that this is what you're doing.
So you either stay in the relationship because you feel unable to confront the person, or you cut the relationship but call it "ghosting" and feel as if you have done something wrong.
You're allowed to remove someone from your life without telling them why.
You're also allowed to text them the reason, or to tell an intermediary.
You can write them a letter and burn it without sending it.
Whatever feels like the best way. You don't owe them an explanation.
They'll make up whatever story they want to, no matter what you do, you can't stop them from doing that, and it's not your job to control how they think or feel.
None of those actions are cowardly or "the easy way out" or "unfair".
Claim back your power. Remind yourself that you are an adult now, no longer a child. Watch your negative self talk, stop telling yourself that you can't do things or won't be able to cope.
You are capable and brave, and you will figure out a way through this, even if it's difficult.
Be kind and patient with yourself. This stuff is hard.
posted by Zumbador at 1:51 AM on December 24, 2023 [51 favorites]
So you either stay in the relationship because you feel unable to confront the person, or you cut the relationship but call it "ghosting" and feel as if you have done something wrong.
You're allowed to remove someone from your life without telling them why.
You're also allowed to text them the reason, or to tell an intermediary.
You can write them a letter and burn it without sending it.
Whatever feels like the best way. You don't owe them an explanation.
They'll make up whatever story they want to, no matter what you do, you can't stop them from doing that, and it's not your job to control how they think or feel.
None of those actions are cowardly or "the easy way out" or "unfair".
Claim back your power. Remind yourself that you are an adult now, no longer a child. Watch your negative self talk, stop telling yourself that you can't do things or won't be able to cope.
You are capable and brave, and you will figure out a way through this, even if it's difficult.
Be kind and patient with yourself. This stuff is hard.
posted by Zumbador at 1:51 AM on December 24, 2023 [51 favorites]
I'm so sorry you're dealing with all this.
My own mother had a personality disorder, among other mental health issues, and it sharply limited her ability to be a functional human, let alone a loving parent. Nothing was ever good enough and she was so angry.
I've been in therapy for this, as well as other issues, for some time.
Personally, I haven't found it helpful to read up on C-PTSD. I also haven't found it helpful to puzzle out the vagaries of her diagnosis. To me, it's a useful piece of family health history. But now I'm going to file it away. I'm going to look to the future.
Instead, I focused on a realization and a strategy.
The first, a realization: My mother couldn't love me. That doesn't make me unlovable.
The strategy: radical acceptance.
It's impossible to repair the past. Closure is a myth. You cannot rescue adults. And while it's normal for people like us to puzzle out behaviors and understand them, because it gives us a sense of control, it doesn't actually fix anything.
Letting go of things you cannot fix, in favor of things you can, and find peace in that, has helped me move forward.
posted by champers at 2:00 AM on December 24, 2023 [20 favorites]
My own mother had a personality disorder, among other mental health issues, and it sharply limited her ability to be a functional human, let alone a loving parent. Nothing was ever good enough and she was so angry.
I've been in therapy for this, as well as other issues, for some time.
Personally, I haven't found it helpful to read up on C-PTSD. I also haven't found it helpful to puzzle out the vagaries of her diagnosis. To me, it's a useful piece of family health history. But now I'm going to file it away. I'm going to look to the future.
Instead, I focused on a realization and a strategy.
The first, a realization: My mother couldn't love me. That doesn't make me unlovable.
The strategy: radical acceptance.
It's impossible to repair the past. Closure is a myth. You cannot rescue adults. And while it's normal for people like us to puzzle out behaviors and understand them, because it gives us a sense of control, it doesn't actually fix anything.
Letting go of things you cannot fix, in favor of things you can, and find peace in that, has helped me move forward.
posted by champers at 2:00 AM on December 24, 2023 [20 favorites]
Absolutely echoing those above. This is a terrible burden on you and I am so sorry for what you are and have been dealing with.
Your obligation is to yourself first and foremost. Even if you thought you could help your mother, you know you can't do it unless you are healthy and strong, so for every reason in the world, you need to pay attention to your need for safety first.
If/when you find it hard to address your own needs before taking on someone else's, try thinking back to when you were first put in the position of being mom's hero, and take care of that child first. See if you can focus the love and attention on that little kid rather than on the person causing the harm. I think that we get the idea that fixing our mom will automatically fix our inner little kid, but it's actually the other way around. Until you are able to protect the little one, who has never received the kind of care and protection they deserve, you won't be able to see what your mom really needs, so you'll stay stuck in this cycle that is likely to shorten your life and is certain to keep you unhappy and conflicted.
I offer this as a way to frame your issues, because I know that if your inner child were your own human offspring, you would do everything in your power to protect them from the abuse your mother compulsively offers. It can sometimes be easier to see the path if you frame it as protecting one who relies on you.
I hope this is helpful and that you are able to find a way through. I cut my father off without explanation 25 years before his death and even though the received wisdom is that if you don't heal the relationship before they die you'll regret it, I can tell you that I have no regrets and he died in 2010 so I suspect that any possible regrets have had sufficient time to arise. It's very freeing to once in a while let adults be the ones to carry their own crap instead of letting them hand it off to you.
posted by janey47 at 2:15 AM on December 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Your obligation is to yourself first and foremost. Even if you thought you could help your mother, you know you can't do it unless you are healthy and strong, so for every reason in the world, you need to pay attention to your need for safety first.
If/when you find it hard to address your own needs before taking on someone else's, try thinking back to when you were first put in the position of being mom's hero, and take care of that child first. See if you can focus the love and attention on that little kid rather than on the person causing the harm. I think that we get the idea that fixing our mom will automatically fix our inner little kid, but it's actually the other way around. Until you are able to protect the little one, who has never received the kind of care and protection they deserve, you won't be able to see what your mom really needs, so you'll stay stuck in this cycle that is likely to shorten your life and is certain to keep you unhappy and conflicted.
I offer this as a way to frame your issues, because I know that if your inner child were your own human offspring, you would do everything in your power to protect them from the abuse your mother compulsively offers. It can sometimes be easier to see the path if you frame it as protecting one who relies on you.
I hope this is helpful and that you are able to find a way through. I cut my father off without explanation 25 years before his death and even though the received wisdom is that if you don't heal the relationship before they die you'll regret it, I can tell you that I have no regrets and he died in 2010 so I suspect that any possible regrets have had sufficient time to arise. It's very freeing to once in a while let adults be the ones to carry their own crap instead of letting them hand it off to you.
posted by janey47 at 2:15 AM on December 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Tidiest solution would be for you, inside your own head, to hand over all concern for your mother and your mother's behaviour and her choices and her future wellbeing to the side of the family that insists that nothing's wrong, and just wash your hands of all of it. No need to tell any of them that that's what you're doing, either.
There's only so much bedmaking that people can possibly do before both allowing and expecting them to lie in it becomes both unavoidable and completely appropriate.
Your present cold anger is protective. Let it protect you.
posted by flabdablet at 4:29 AM on December 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
There's only so much bedmaking that people can possibly do before both allowing and expecting them to lie in it becomes both unavoidable and completely appropriate.
Your present cold anger is protective. Let it protect you.
posted by flabdablet at 4:29 AM on December 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
it is just generally unsafe to be around my mother, emotionally and physically
I think this is the key detail. As a human being, you need and deserve safety.
All of what folks have said above is great, and also even for the times when you feel like you “should” be doing something for other family members, you can’t help anyone without first being safe yourself. Possibly working together with your siblings, if they are in a place themselves to do so, on your mutual safety would be helpful, but check in with your therapist on that one because whether or not that’s a wise or itself safe idea will vary greatly depending on individual circumstances.
posted by eviemath at 5:18 AM on December 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think this is the key detail. As a human being, you need and deserve safety.
All of what folks have said above is great, and also even for the times when you feel like you “should” be doing something for other family members, you can’t help anyone without first being safe yourself. Possibly working together with your siblings, if they are in a place themselves to do so, on your mutual safety would be helpful, but check in with your therapist on that one because whether or not that’s a wise or itself safe idea will vary greatly depending on individual circumstances.
posted by eviemath at 5:18 AM on December 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
When I read this part of what I see is a conflict between, on the one hand, the parts of you that have been told for so long and in so many ways that you don't matter and you're Bad if you advocate for yourself, and on the other, the part of you that recognizes your own personhood and has a fundamental will to survive and be well. The conditioning is strong, and it doesn't just go away overnight. But you can grow the part of you that advocates and protects for what you need over time. You're in a process of deciding that even if you don't count in the relationship with your mom, you count in your relationship with yourself.
I have had some related experiences in my family of origin, and I have an ex whose really damaging emotional abuse was driven by serious mental health issues. My advice based on these experiences is to prioritize giving yourself permission to focus far more narrowly than you're going to want to on the impact your mom's behavior has had, and continues to have, on you. I know, deeply, how hard that can be (see: conditioning). But anecdotally and in my own experience, focusing on someone's diagnoses or own history as reasons for why they do what they do can seriously impede progress. This has sometimes looked for me like visualizing climbing into some sort of steel vault where nothing can get in or out, so that I am truly alone with whatever I am thinking or feeling- this soothes the part of me that is concerned about my negative feelings being harmful or wrong or selfish or whatever, and protects the mental space from others' agendas and words that I know I can be swayed by. I don't know if that kind of exercise is useful to you or not, but the bottom line is that empathy/understanding/perspective are good things in healthy situations but, when allowed to supersede our own boundaries and needs, keep us locked in relationships that we need to not be in. I can't fully tell how you feel about your anger, but I want to say for what it's worth that I think it's good, actually. It's an appropriate response to mistreatment and injustice. I'm sorry you're having to feel it all now. I'm glad you seem to be allowing it.
In any case, like others, I think you should put as much distance between you and your mom as you can--you are describing someone who, you're right, is not going to meet you in the middle, and wounds can't heal when someone is constantly ripping out the stitches--but it may be that in order to feel ready to do that, you need to spend some time learning to validate yourself and practicing withstanding the discomfort of centering what you need to be safe and well. Being the child of someone who isn't really capable of love yet is somehow so good at using the concept to manipulate, control, and punish is a massive, massive mindfuck, and it is hard, confusing work to climb out of. It sounds like it feels really spirally and messy in the middle of that long process but I hope you're also giving yourself credit for the ways you're taking care of yourself as you work, thread by thread, on untangling. All the best to you.
posted by wormtales at 7:05 AM on December 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have had some related experiences in my family of origin, and I have an ex whose really damaging emotional abuse was driven by serious mental health issues. My advice based on these experiences is to prioritize giving yourself permission to focus far more narrowly than you're going to want to on the impact your mom's behavior has had, and continues to have, on you. I know, deeply, how hard that can be (see: conditioning). But anecdotally and in my own experience, focusing on someone's diagnoses or own history as reasons for why they do what they do can seriously impede progress. This has sometimes looked for me like visualizing climbing into some sort of steel vault where nothing can get in or out, so that I am truly alone with whatever I am thinking or feeling- this soothes the part of me that is concerned about my negative feelings being harmful or wrong or selfish or whatever, and protects the mental space from others' agendas and words that I know I can be swayed by. I don't know if that kind of exercise is useful to you or not, but the bottom line is that empathy/understanding/perspective are good things in healthy situations but, when allowed to supersede our own boundaries and needs, keep us locked in relationships that we need to not be in. I can't fully tell how you feel about your anger, but I want to say for what it's worth that I think it's good, actually. It's an appropriate response to mistreatment and injustice. I'm sorry you're having to feel it all now. I'm glad you seem to be allowing it.
In any case, like others, I think you should put as much distance between you and your mom as you can--you are describing someone who, you're right, is not going to meet you in the middle, and wounds can't heal when someone is constantly ripping out the stitches--but it may be that in order to feel ready to do that, you need to spend some time learning to validate yourself and practicing withstanding the discomfort of centering what you need to be safe and well. Being the child of someone who isn't really capable of love yet is somehow so good at using the concept to manipulate, control, and punish is a massive, massive mindfuck, and it is hard, confusing work to climb out of. It sounds like it feels really spirally and messy in the middle of that long process but I hope you're also giving yourself credit for the ways you're taking care of yourself as you work, thread by thread, on untangling. All the best to you.
posted by wormtales at 7:05 AM on December 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
You sound like a kind hearted person who wants to do right by people and so this is just tearing you apart. If you choose to get some distance you can moderate it as you need - taking a break for three months, six months, two years, ten years whatever. Only say hi at Christmas and Easter. And when the guilt comes up you can remind yourself that you’ve chosen to love her from a distance. In my case it was after realizing that every encounter ended in tears and days of stitching myself back together that I realized neither of us are getting anything out of this but pattern enactment and it’s better to just send good wishes through the ether and leave it at that.
As for the anger and knowing her background - you have to at some point give yourself a seat at the table too: “even though her upbringing was horrific she never broke out of that pattern and now I suffer from it and I’m so angry at her” and you can take your anger right up to the human condition because we are organic beings conditioned by genetics, upbringing, culture and chance.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:39 AM on December 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
As for the anger and knowing her background - you have to at some point give yourself a seat at the table too: “even though her upbringing was horrific she never broke out of that pattern and now I suffer from it and I’m so angry at her” and you can take your anger right up to the human condition because we are organic beings conditioned by genetics, upbringing, culture and chance.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:39 AM on December 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
This has some similarities to my late grandmother. I’m so sorry. What an awful, painful mess. Here’s the most useful thing I learned:
You don’t have to have a conversation about going no contact. You don’t need a final straw. You don’t need the person or anyone still in contact with them to understand why you’re doing it. Seriously. If you wanted to just stop answering her calls and visiting, that would be ok. If she sent other relatives to check on you (more accurately, to get you back in line), you can say, “I’m fine with you letting her know that I am safe and alive and aware she’d welcome contact from me.” You don’t need to explain, to her or anyone, why. You don’t owe it to anyone choosing to be in contact with her to do what she wants so she doesn’t pressure them to get on your case or turn to them for support about the supposedly horrible thing you’re doing. If being in contact with her isn’t healthy for you, you don’t need to persuade anyone but yourself that it’s the right choice. Seriously, there were several details in your post that could easily and clearly be a reason to end contact. And there’s no statute of limitations—if you were vaguely aware of a smoky smell for a bit, and then only reacted when your smoke alarm went off, would it be weird to run out of the house since you didn’t at the first hint of smoke?
posted by theotherdurassister at 8:25 AM on December 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
You don’t have to have a conversation about going no contact. You don’t need a final straw. You don’t need the person or anyone still in contact with them to understand why you’re doing it. Seriously. If you wanted to just stop answering her calls and visiting, that would be ok. If she sent other relatives to check on you (more accurately, to get you back in line), you can say, “I’m fine with you letting her know that I am safe and alive and aware she’d welcome contact from me.” You don’t need to explain, to her or anyone, why. You don’t owe it to anyone choosing to be in contact with her to do what she wants so she doesn’t pressure them to get on your case or turn to them for support about the supposedly horrible thing you’re doing. If being in contact with her isn’t healthy for you, you don’t need to persuade anyone but yourself that it’s the right choice. Seriously, there were several details in your post that could easily and clearly be a reason to end contact. And there’s no statute of limitations—if you were vaguely aware of a smoky smell for a bit, and then only reacted when your smoke alarm went off, would it be weird to run out of the house since you didn’t at the first hint of smoke?
posted by theotherdurassister at 8:25 AM on December 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, this question reminds me a bit of another post I contributed to recently. I think what I said here about a workplace that was protecting a harmful person applies to your situation as well. Honestly, most of my insights about dysfunctional systems (workplaces, communities) ultimately come from watching families like mine protect the “out of control” relative from accountability and consequences. It would be a good idea to consider—probably with your therapist—how the family system protects your mom from the appropriate consequences of her actions, so that you can prepare for those around your mom to react to your choices.
posted by theotherdurassister at 9:24 AM on December 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by theotherdurassister at 9:24 AM on December 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Your mom and my mom are cut from the same cloth. It's difficult, particularly during the holidays.
If you want to talk, memail me.
posted by easy, lucky, free at 10:58 AM on December 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you want to talk, memail me.
posted by easy, lucky, free at 10:58 AM on December 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am so sorry. I read your post but had to skip the comments for the moment (sorry if I'm repeating anyone) but did want to say that you don't have to make an announcement. You can just take space. You don't even have to go cold turkey if you don't want to -- there's also the "gray rock" technique (which you may already be an expert at). Confrontations can take over your life, and you don't need to have them if you don't want to. You can just focus your time elsewhere, be too busy to do xyz, and have brief conversations. If you want to stop talking altogether, that's fine too. Whatever it takes to have the space you need. It sounds like you feel like you "should" tell her and have some confrontation... But I think you're right that she won't be able to hear it, so then it's about, will it help you to say it? Or will it help you to not have that confrontation so that you don't have to ... receive angry emails and calls or however she might react? I think the most important thing is trusting your sense of what it takes to feel safe, i.e., demonstrating to your more scared inner self that your adult self has resolved and figured out how not to put you in harm's way anymore now that you aren't as helpless as you were as a child and have more resources to work with. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.
posted by slidell at 11:08 AM on December 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by slidell at 11:08 AM on December 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
My therapist really has been a great help, but I find it hard to even reach out to her for additional help even when she says that I am free to set up more appointments.
I'm pretty sure this is therapist for OMG, take my hand and let's get you the fuck out of here.
Make the appointments, you are worth it.
You're going to have to swim strong and hard to pull yourself away from the suction of that drain you are circling. When someone throws you a rope, grab it and get out of the pool. Don't relax when you get out of the current it will just suck you back down. Don't jump back in for your sisters, throw them the rope. It's up to them to grab it. It is possible that once they see you swimming for safety you will inspire them to follow.
posted by BoscosMom at 12:09 PM on December 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm pretty sure this is therapist for OMG, take my hand and let's get you the fuck out of here.
Make the appointments, you are worth it.
You're going to have to swim strong and hard to pull yourself away from the suction of that drain you are circling. When someone throws you a rope, grab it and get out of the pool. Don't relax when you get out of the current it will just suck you back down. Don't jump back in for your sisters, throw them the rope. It's up to them to grab it. It is possible that once they see you swimming for safety you will inspire them to follow.
posted by BoscosMom at 12:09 PM on December 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
You are allowed to walk away. Without explanation. Without her permission or agreement.
Yeah, you're going to have to deflect a bunch of attempts and probably at some point will have to state the boundary out loud or get a restraining order or whatever, but do not pre-catastrophize this. Having a calmly-prepared plan, scripting what you might have to say, practicing not taking her bait - you should do those things, but try to only work on this when you have calmed your nervous system with exercise, vagus nerve exercises, grounding rituals, whatever you need. If you have to start with a fade out to low-contact, and that is easier and makes your life less miserable, do that.
If you need to tell yourself it's only for a year or two so you can go to therapy by yourself instead of bringing her along every time, tell yourself that. You can revisit that later, in the extra therapy sessions you should be booking.
I would suggest yes, Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, for some recalibration. I agree with another comment that the point of this should not be to further pinpoint what exactly is wrong with your mother, it should be about recognizing the maladaptive survival skills YOU acquired and the trauma responses YOU have.
And it should be about internalizing the unfairness. To YOU. A person who did not deserve these terrible experiences and now, as an adult, has the right to opt out of more of the same or worse, as you are also more legally vulnerable as an adult and should be distancing yourself from a lot of crimes you have not up until now.
Your mother has always had the same agency to make different choices that you have, and you clearly have exercised that agency in your own dealings with others. If you are going to accept your agency, you'll have to come to terms with hers. With the fact that she chose this, no matter the excuses you make for her or That's why it's easier to not do that. But on the other side of doing that, as hard as that work is, is freedom.
You do not have to believe down to your soul, yet, that you deserve to put yourself first and take care of yourself first and focus on your own healing. It is okay to just accept that as an intellectual premise for now - and probably something you'd advise a friend without hesitation, and believe it! - and try that out for a while and see how it goes.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:11 PM on December 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, you're going to have to deflect a bunch of attempts and probably at some point will have to state the boundary out loud or get a restraining order or whatever, but do not pre-catastrophize this. Having a calmly-prepared plan, scripting what you might have to say, practicing not taking her bait - you should do those things, but try to only work on this when you have calmed your nervous system with exercise, vagus nerve exercises, grounding rituals, whatever you need. If you have to start with a fade out to low-contact, and that is easier and makes your life less miserable, do that.
If you need to tell yourself it's only for a year or two so you can go to therapy by yourself instead of bringing her along every time, tell yourself that. You can revisit that later, in the extra therapy sessions you should be booking.
I would suggest yes, Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, for some recalibration. I agree with another comment that the point of this should not be to further pinpoint what exactly is wrong with your mother, it should be about recognizing the maladaptive survival skills YOU acquired and the trauma responses YOU have.
And it should be about internalizing the unfairness. To YOU. A person who did not deserve these terrible experiences and now, as an adult, has the right to opt out of more of the same or worse, as you are also more legally vulnerable as an adult and should be distancing yourself from a lot of crimes you have not up until now.
Your mother has always had the same agency to make different choices that you have, and you clearly have exercised that agency in your own dealings with others. If you are going to accept your agency, you'll have to come to terms with hers. With the fact that she chose this, no matter the excuses you make for her or That's why it's easier to not do that. But on the other side of doing that, as hard as that work is, is freedom.
You do not have to believe down to your soul, yet, that you deserve to put yourself first and take care of yourself first and focus on your own healing. It is okay to just accept that as an intellectual premise for now - and probably something you'd advise a friend without hesitation, and believe it! - and try that out for a while and see how it goes.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:11 PM on December 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
it is just generally unsafe to be around my mother, emotionally and physically
This would be nice embroidered on a pillow, or if you're not crafty, as the screen saver on your phone.
posted by BoscosMom at 12:19 PM on December 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
This would be nice embroidered on a pillow, or if you're not crafty, as the screen saver on your phone.
posted by BoscosMom at 12:19 PM on December 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just came across some blunt words of wisdom that might be appropriate here, i.e. "if you want to stop being used as a doormat, step one is to get up off the porch." You're in the process of removing yourself from the situation, and that's going to do nothing but good for both you and your mom (although she might never see it that way). She might slip and fall on that metaphorical porch. She might track dirt into her metaphorical house. Those are her problems, not yours.
As others have said, as an adult, you have both the right and responsibility to take care of yourself, partly in order to be able to act positively towards others. You need to recognize that responsibility for yourself, and also accept that your mom has the same for herself. You can only control your part of it.
posted by rpfields at 12:22 PM on December 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
As others have said, as an adult, you have both the right and responsibility to take care of yourself, partly in order to be able to act positively towards others. You need to recognize that responsibility for yourself, and also accept that your mom has the same for herself. You can only control your part of it.
posted by rpfields at 12:22 PM on December 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
You don’t owe abusive people a relationship with you. It’s time to walk away.
posted by Jubey at 4:02 PM on December 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 4:02 PM on December 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Re: your therapist inviting you to schedule additional sessions… please remember two things: 1) Your therapist is interested in supporting you, and feels this would be an appropriate addition to your therapy, or else they wouldn’t have offered; 2) You pay your therapist for their time. You aren’t imposing or taking more than your fair share. I’m a therapist and often do extra sessions when a client is going through something harder than usual.
posted by theotherdurassister at 4:30 PM on December 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by theotherdurassister at 4:30 PM on December 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Go check out the JustNoMIL (also for JustNoMoms) subReddit. Also maybe Raised by Narcissists. There's a variety of other more-or-less connected subReddits, too.
You'll find a (sadly) enormous collection of diverse people who are all too familiar with the same sorts of disfunction you're dealing with.
posted by stormyteal at 6:00 PM on December 24, 2023
You'll find a (sadly) enormous collection of diverse people who are all too familiar with the same sorts of disfunction you're dealing with.
posted by stormyteal at 6:00 PM on December 24, 2023
I feel like I’m fighting my nervous system all the time, and just wants to flee and fawn.
You don't have to become some kind of healthy, assertive person who can talk about this directly to her face before you remove yourself from this toxic situation. In fact, you should remove yourself first, as a healing step.
You can flee from her.
You can flee from her.
You can flee from her.
So what would that look like?
What would ghosting her look like?
You can probably do it in a way that she won't reach out to you that hard either.
Ask friends or partners to send texts for you if you feel like you need to, but don't visit her, and don't accept calls, and don't respond to messages.
posted by Elysum at 3:44 AM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
You don't have to become some kind of healthy, assertive person who can talk about this directly to her face before you remove yourself from this toxic situation. In fact, you should remove yourself first, as a healing step.
You can flee from her.
You can flee from her.
You can flee from her.
So what would that look like?
What would ghosting her look like?
You can probably do it in a way that she won't reach out to you that hard either.
Ask friends or partners to send texts for you if you feel like you need to, but don't visit her, and don't accept calls, and don't respond to messages.
posted by Elysum at 3:44 AM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
She makes you feel awful. Cut ties. Leave her to the people who want to interact with her.
But to avoid the tedium of always having to reformulate an answer to others (siblings, etc.), make a list of reasons why you cut ties with her and a list of things that would have to happen (if that's possible) before you would resume contact with her.
Q: "Why are you being so mean to mom? She only wants to drive you crazy." etc.
A: list A, maybe with list B, depending on the circumstances
posted by pracowity at 10:32 AM on December 25, 2023
But to avoid the tedium of always having to reformulate an answer to others (siblings, etc.), make a list of reasons why you cut ties with her and a list of things that would have to happen (if that's possible) before you would resume contact with her.
Q: "Why are you being so mean to mom? She only wants to drive you crazy." etc.
A: list A, maybe with list B, depending on the circumstances
posted by pracowity at 10:32 AM on December 25, 2023
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I've found learning about narcissistic personality disorder very helpful for getting clarity on this kind of behaviour, where someone demonstrates no capacity for empathy and seems to always be sucking others into traps of endless misery, while always framing it as being the victim. I've had the videos by DoctorRamani on youtube recommended to me as a good introduction.
I know people who have spent the better part of their lives trapped trying to figure out why someone is behaving in this way, and hoping if they can just say the right thing or solve the next problem the narcissistic person will treat them well. When someone tells you're they're a victim the natural human response is to take them at face value and try to help them and solve their problems, but with someone like this sucking you into the drama is the point, and there is never a solution or stopping point. The more distance you can get from the situation the better, but it's a hard hard thing to do.
I really feel for you and I wish you all the best.
posted by pandabanter at 12:17 AM on December 24, 2023 [6 favorites]