Great bands with bad drummers?

November 29, 2023 7:19 AM

I drummed in a garage band, and I sometimes make the provocative statement at parties that being a drummer doesn't necessarily mean being a musician. Obviously there are many talented drummers who ARE great performers with a deep understanding of music. But they're also the only ones who are regularly replaced with machines. As long as you can keep a beat, a lot of genres don't require a lot of fancy fills and such.

Can people help give examples of drummers who are merely adequate in successful bands? Or am I wrong and average drummers wash out and are replaced by better ones Pete Best style?

posted by rikschell to Media & Arts (29 answers total)

I’ve played in a lot of bands as a keyboardist. There are more than enough very good to great drummers that there’s no reason at all a band would stick with a sub-par drummer and still end up being widely considered a “great” band. I can’t think of any. (Meg White is not a sub-par drummer, just to head that one off at the pass).
posted by outfielder at 7:56 AM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]

Best answer: I've heard various musician friends say this about Lars Ulrich from Metallica. I'm not competent to say if that's right but it seems to be a common opinion, at least.
posted by underclocked at 8:08 AM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

I don’t think it’s possible to have a great band without a great drummer. It’s sort of a limiting factor imo. (Source: I’ve been in a lot of bands)
posted by capnsue at 8:10 AM on November 29, 2023 [8 favorites]

Best answer: Came in to say Lars Ulrich. I'm not a drummer, but even I can tell he is mediocre, at best. He can do a fast double bass, which is probably the only requirement to be a drummer for Metallica.

I think there are a lot of "not great" musicians in bands who are still the right musician for that particular band. I don't think Adam Clayton will win any Bass Player of the Year awards, but he's still the right bass player for U2.
posted by bondcliff at 8:14 AM on November 29, 2023 [5 favorites]

Adding Ringo to the pool with Meg White

Being a good drummer is sometimes knowing when to do nothing
posted by falsedmitri at 8:25 AM on November 29, 2023 [8 favorites]

This seems needlessly confrontational, but I think it's generally agreed that Lars Ulrich is merely okay at drums (although not actively "bad").

The White Stripes?

Mick Fleetwood has said that he's not a very good drummer.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 8:28 AM on November 29, 2023

Just to be clear, we all know there's not just one definition of 'good drummer', right? Same for any instrument: some musicians have extreme technical chops, some are very emotive, some write very good parts for themselves to play, some are flashy and grab attention, some work very well in the band supporting the work of others without being distracting, some are advanced theorists, some can't read music, etc.

People who say Ringo or Meg are 'bad' drummers are telling on themselves imo, for having an extremely narrow and amusical notion of what it means to be 'good'.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:29 AM on November 29, 2023 [20 favorites]

I mean, I think we have to define "good" and "mediocre" for this statement to mean anything. And here's the thing: the things that make a good dummer for Metallica are different than the things that make a good drummer for backing up Sonny Rollins are different from the things that make a good punk drummer.

To go back to your question, by definition, a drummer that can keep a beat and not play fancy fills is a good drummer for a genre where that's the role of the drums. Like, playing stuff that blends with the style of the rest of the group is huge part of being a good performing musician. To get to the point where we know a musician well enough to talk about their technical chops, they're already better than "o.k.".
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:31 AM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]

Best answer: James Hetfield has said that Lars isn't the greatest drummer.

And yet Lars struggles, as many have observed, to keep time. His own bandmates have observed this. “To this day, he is not Drummer of the Year,” Metallica frontman James Hetfield conceded to Playboy in 2001. “We all know that.”

I think there are a lot of "not great" musicians in bands who are still the right musician for that particular band.

Yep, lots of bands where displays of technical proficiency are not really the point, and they do fine anyway in terms of commercial success or influence. Like, Peter Buck of REM is not considered the greatest technical guitarist, but he's doing fine.
posted by LionIndex at 8:31 AM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

John Bonham in Led Zeppelin. Keith Moon in The Who. Not technically great drummers but imagine either band without them. You don't have to be a "great drummer" to be the "right drummer".
posted by tommasz at 8:32 AM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

As a side note, I can't help resisting the premise. I think:

- If you are playing music in a band, you are a musician. It's that simple.
- There is no difference between being a singer, drummer, guitar player, kazoo player. They are all musicians. So, no special category because it's drums.
- Any band can have instruments/members that have a less "critical" role. But it's entirely subjective. Some people think Ringo is the luckiest drummer on the planet, and others would say he was essential to the Beatles, and they wouldn't be the Beatles without him. But, again, I don't think this is a "drummer" discussion, it's an "anyone" discussion.

Also, being adequate is OK! I know from personal experience many great artists that have imposter syndrome and/or never feel like they are enough. I think that's because of a few things:
- Artists tend to look forward, not back. They tend to always being reaching for the next unattainable thing, or looking for the next question. So there is never a sense of "done", or of having arrived.
- The internet makes it so easy for you to feel unaccomplished. I see videos of 8 year olds easily doing things I have struggled for decades to do, and still can't. I just tell myself "yeah, but no one can be me" and I move on :)
posted by SNACKeR at 8:34 AM on November 29, 2023 [12 favorites]

I think there are a lot of "not great" musicians in bands who are still the right musician for that particular band.

which, if the band is great, if their music has come to stand the test of time, makes them (by my definition) a great drummer!

That said, I can dismiss a vast chunk of 1980s music (particularly stuff that sold) as having horrible fucking drumming. But that's more sound than any craft, though I would argue that a drummer's sound is as much a part of their craft as their precision, dexterity etc.

Being a good drummer is sometimes knowing when to do nothing

All hail Supertramp's Bob Siebenberg (who?), who never met a song he couldn't bring less to ... and it pretty much always works a charm. And I don't even like Supertramp really -- just had the experience way back of when of being kinda bored at one of their concerts and slowly coming to realize how little drumming was going on. And as a result, every beat counted. Which got me interested again.
posted by philip-random at 8:38 AM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

Your question brings to mind the famous joke (falsely) attributed to John Lennon: Ringo wasn't the best drummer in the world - he wasn't even the best drummer in the Beatles.

Jokes aside, I'm not really certain you can answer this question satisfactorily. I don't think a successful band with memorable songs can really have a "bad" drummer per se, because in the context of the band's sound, the drumming is clearly doing its job. Neil Peart was a far more complex drummer technically than Meg White, but her drumming is totally satisfactory for the White Stripes' songs as Peart's is for Rush. So...I don't think I can really answer this.
posted by fortitude25 at 8:53 AM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

> You don't have to be a "great drummer" to be the "right drummer".

This, muchly, as shown in this video.
Ringo & Pink Floyd's Nick Mason can hardly be seen as virtuosos, but they play what fits the music and it served the music well.

The only example I can think of is early Body Count where Beatmaster V is great at the more groovy songs, but stuggling at the tight D-beats.
posted by farlukar at 9:54 AM on November 29, 2023

"Starr has taken some hits over the years from fans and even fellow drummers who make meritless claims that he wasn’t so great; that he “played for the song” and nothing more. Part of the reason for this notion is because what Starr did was so deceptively simple. It didn’t sound difficult—it wasn’t exhaustive or athletic enough—so it couldn’t have been hard. But what he achieved was more seamless and meaningful than mechanical flash: He played the perfect part at the perfect time."

"Ringo Starr is, of course, nothing less than one of the premier rock drummers ever to sit behind a kit. Perhaps he wasn’t as technically proficient as some (John Lennon did mention this in an interview shortly before his death), but he never failed to bring something intangible to the Beatles’ songs.... In the process, he was responsible for some of the most creative, memorable drumming of the rock era."

"I say this with peace and love: The Ringo detractors don’t know their ass from a hole in Blackburn, Lancashire."
posted by paper scissors sock at 10:04 AM on November 29, 2023 [9 favorites]

Illustrators are regularly being replaced by machines now, but that doesn't mean that illustration isn't art. Likewise, I wouldn't call an illustrator who wasn't very skilled "not an artist," I would just say they're not very skilled.

Actually, I would probably liken a drummer without a lot of musical skill to an an outsider artist. Music has been one area where folk art, outsider art, etc, has often crossed into the mainstream.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:06 AM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

I think if you fill time and space with sound, you're a musician. Even The Shaggs.

And I think it was Stewart Copeland that said keeping a boom-bap-boom-bap 4-4 beat was the hardest thing.
posted by credulous at 10:09 AM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]

Best answer: I don't know if he's bad, but I've always considered Alex Van Halen no better than adequate, much as I like Van Halen's music. It always seems to me that he overuses fills and flourishes to cover up a certain lack of fundamentals. But I'm not a musician - that's just how it sounds to me.
posted by Dr. Wu at 11:02 AM on November 29, 2023

I love her playing, but Mo Tucker is no virtuoso.
posted by anagrama at 12:11 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

Best answer: That's a really fun and subjective question, but IMO the numbers of barely acceptable drummers are legion. For the most part, completely my opinion and I'm not an expert on all of these bands, but IMO so many play 'Ramones style' basic drumming far too often without everyone else being simple like The Ramones. I'm not talking about technical style either, I'm talking musically interesting.
Paula Abdul - Straight Up
This may or may not be a machine, but it's far more interesting than many of the drum beats listed below.

Does the drummer use interesting sounds if they want to stick mostly to a 4/4 beat? Cowbell? Anything? No? You are not good.


Finally there are drummers held back by their band - like for example Van Halen - the drum intro to Hot for Teacher is awesome - most of his mid-song drumming is boring. So the guy can play. I make no distinction. If the drummer can play a decent solo - but most of the time is just keeping time - boring. He's on the border.


Also there's a distinction between musically complex and interesting - like Lars Ulrich of Metallica is supposed to be average to poor - Metallica's drumming generally is not boring and it is musically interesting, even if it's not musically complex.

Ringo and The Who? Not even close. The drumming on every song is different, every song is musical.

AC/DC - there were rumors their drummer in the '80s couldn't even keep time live. I think he's fine.

Finally there are some songs played poorly: Here's my favorite example. Parasite by Kiss. Kiss drags throughout this song. It's a fine song played poorly. Here's it played tightly by Anthrax.

Final thing: does the drummer play something boring (or continue with the basic beat) with the end of the song goes crazy or the guitarist solos? Not good. Guns N Roses Sweet Child of Mine I think this is one of his worst drummed songs in terms of GNR solos, but he still announces the start of solos, matches beats, and changes tempo a few times.

It's not 'can this person play? It's would you air drum to any of this band's songs?'


So many '80s hard rock bands, like go below Van Halen into The Scorpions, Winger, etc - all boring.
For example Loverboy Working for the weekend - boring.

Belinda Carslile's solo work. Go listen to Mad About You. It's may be a machine, but it sounds terrible.
REO Speedwagon - Can't Fight this Feeling Anymore - boring.
Huey Lewis and the News -The Power of Love. I think this is actually one of his best, but it's still pedestrian.
Taylor Swift - boring. Her 'sick beat' is a 7th grade cheer chant? (and that's among her most interesting). Her guitar work is fine - her synth lines often fine.
Pop country drummers in the 1980s - they are actually far more interesting now. For example, the intro to Allan Jackson's Chatahoochie is fine, goes downhill after that.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:19 PM on November 29, 2023

Response by poster: Thanks to those who have actually tried to answer the question. I realize it’s a somewhat specious argument. But as an adequate to bad drummer myself, I still think drummers can get away with less talent than any other musician, in the context of popular music. I get that some of you are saying, “in certain styles of punk, being merely adequate MEANS being great,” but I want to push back on that to a degree. While I think a lot of people have said awful things about Meg White for mostly misogynistic reasons, and I think it’s true that her drumming is perfect for those songs, I do think it’s fair to distinguish between someone being artistically minimalist and someone who’s simply doing the bare minimum. I think most people would admit that some artists who get popular aren’t really that great. If you disagree with the premise, maybe just give it a pass.
posted by rikschell at 12:27 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

drummers can get away with less talent than any other musician

Bass players man. Drummers are far more noticeable and required than a good bass player.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:30 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

Your band is only as good as your drummer
posted by SystematicAbuse at 1:04 PM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]

I still think drummers can get away with less talent than any other musician

As someone who is better than ok at drums, bass, and guitar, I’d argue that drums are actually the one where it’s most obvious if you suck. Also most guitarists and drummers think they are better than they are, and often worse at keeping time than they think.

I’ve actually heard a somewhat common joke that’s the converse of your observation:
Q: Who’s the only one in the band that can read music?
A. The drummer!
posted by aspersioncast at 3:17 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

Best answer: I still think drummers can get away with less talent than any other musician

As someone who is better than ok at drums, bass, and guitar, I’d argue that drums are actually the one where it’s most obvious if you suck. Also most guitarists and bassists think they are better than they are, and often worse at keeping time than they think.

I’ve actually heard a somewhat common joke that’s the converse of your observation:
Q: Who’s the only one in the band that can read music?
A. The drummer!

But to name some bands with mediocre drummers:
Poison, and really most of the 80s hair metal bands. Yes, including Def Leppard.
posted by aspersioncast at 3:22 PM on November 29, 2023

I'd suggest that Hilarie Sidney was not a great drummer in The Apples in Stereo, but was the absolutely perfect drummer for the noisy lo-fi bubblegum rock sound that they had.

(I love Hilarie's drumming to bits: it's just right)
posted by scruss at 3:37 PM on November 29, 2023

Can people help give examples of drummers who are merely adequate in successful bands

I would flip your premise around - as people have pointed out, there are lots of musicians (including drummers) in famous & successful bands who work really well in the context of that particular band, but who might be just "adequate" in general. But the real jaw-droppingly astounding musicians are the folks you've never heard of - the hired guns who aren't official members of bands but are hired for the tour or the album; the Nashville cats backing up a country singer touring on his first hit, the guys from Memphis and Cleveland backing the guy who had 3 top 10 hits in 1975 and who just met the singer that morning, Michael Bublé's or Jeff Lorber's band. Once you've heard folks like this working, the answer to your question is kind of, "uhhh, compared to these folks almost everyone in famous bands is "adequate"."

But as an adequate to bad drummer myself, I still think drummers can get away with less talent than any other musician, in the context of popular music.

In general I disagree with this pretty strongly, but I think there's a contextual element that might be influencing your thinking - namely, that less talented drummers still get lots of gigs at the local and regional level. Because there just aren't that many drummers around. The gear is expensive, and hard to transport, and a pain in the ass to set up, and it's hard to find a space where you can practice, no wonder lots of people go, "Fuck it, I'm gonna play bass." Your premise seems rooted in the idea that you were a pretty bad drummer and you still got to play in bands. And my point is, well, yeah, it was a choice between you and the guy with 4 DUI's and no cymbals. You can't necessarily extrapolate that experience to drummers in general.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:43 PM on November 29, 2023 [8 favorites]

Best answer: What soundguy99 said. There are just so few drummers out there for all the garage/trying bands to play with.
posted by Windopaene at 6:03 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

Just to indicate how subjective this is, tommasz said above that John Bonham is not a technically great drummer, even though in just about every poll and article about drummers ever put together Bonham is regularly considered the greatest rock drummer of all time.

He's actually the rare example of a musician being universally lauded as the greatest by their peers - imagine getting any kind of consent on the greatest guitarist or singer, for example. But virtually every rock drummer puts Bonham at the top of the tree.

Totally respect tommasz having a different opinion to that, it would be a boring world if everyone thought the same. I'm bringing it up to indicate that even the greatest don't hit the button for everyone, and there's no objective measurement.
posted by underclocked at 4:20 AM on December 1, 2023