Talk me in or out of this possibly harebrained plan
October 16, 2023 10:58 PM Subscribe
I'm considering buying undeveloped land and trying to turn it into a carbon sink. Thoughts and alternative ideas welcome!
I drive by lots of open land and consider I could invest some money into buying the land and then doing carbon-capture farming on it. (Read about carbon-farming here.
I live in an expensive and drought-prone area and would likely not do any work myself, so I'm thinking of doing this out of state and hiring someone to plant and maintain the actual garden. (MeFi Job if you have an empty lot nearby...?)
I already do a lot of political activism but I want to make a concrete, immediate difference also. Am I nuts or could this work?
I drive by lots of open land and consider I could invest some money into buying the land and then doing carbon-capture farming on it. (Read about carbon-farming here.
I live in an expensive and drought-prone area and would likely not do any work myself, so I'm thinking of doing this out of state and hiring someone to plant and maintain the actual garden. (MeFi Job if you have an empty lot nearby...?)
I already do a lot of political activism but I want to make a concrete, immediate difference also. Am I nuts or could this work?
Access to farmland is super important for the agricultural transition, generational, ecological, etc. If you were able to provide viable acreage for a small farmer who would follow carbon farming principles (e.g. those in The Soil Will Save Us) I think it's a good idea.
There are projects to match would-be gardeners with people who have yards/lawns and would be willing to let someone take it over. I think permaculture blitzes often go that route. I see your idea as a scaled up version!
posted by spamandkimchi at 12:02 AM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are projects to match would-be gardeners with people who have yards/lawns and would be willing to let someone take it over. I think permaculture blitzes often go that route. I see your idea as a scaled up version!
posted by spamandkimchi at 12:02 AM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
€70,000 will secure you 10 acres = 4 hectares down the road from me in the Irish midlands. It's already planted (2018) with Sitka spruce Picea sitchensis with a vanity screen of broadleaves. It is attracting a govt grant for the next 9 years. There are numerous forestry management companies that would take on care and maintenance. "A well-managed crop of Sitka Spruce should be ready for clearfell after 30-35 years, depending on the site, and at today's prices should yield a return of over €19,000 per ha (excluding the land).". So you'd get your money back. Obvs you could do 'better' with your money investing in Megacorp. 30 years ago, as a 20-something, a pal of mine planted a similar sized plot on the home place intending to do the 10 and 20 year thinning himself with his pals. When the time rolled round he was older, richer and less supple and so paid for experts to do the heavy lifting. You are not nuts but it is work.
posted by BobTheScientist at 1:00 AM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 1:00 AM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
If your goal is just to make a carbon sink, that doesn't necessarily need much maintenance once established. Eg here in IL, there's tons of opportunities for prairie restoration that can put about a metric ton of carbon per year per acre into the soil. I'll come back with more info later, but this shows the the general idea.
This does take some decent labor and money to start up at larger scales, but once it's going you don't really do much of anything other than burn parts every few years and remove invasive species.
You don't mention this as a goal but a side benefit is providing habitat for our struggling wildlife.
Feel free to memail me if this is something you'd like to discuss further, I am a plant ecologist with some experience in carbon accounting.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:58 AM on October 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
This does take some decent labor and money to start up at larger scales, but once it's going you don't really do much of anything other than burn parts every few years and remove invasive species.
You don't mention this as a goal but a side benefit is providing habitat for our struggling wildlife.
Feel free to memail me if this is something you'd like to discuss further, I am a plant ecologist with some experience in carbon accounting.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:58 AM on October 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Check out the permies regional forum to help identify permaculture enthusiasts near you. There are often a lot of folks interested in a permaculture lifestyle, but without access to land.
Depending on where you buy the land, you'll really want a local expertise on what can be done with any particular lot -- e.g., are there any restrictions to activities, sensitive areas/zoning, etc. And, most importantly, what will grow well, without too much additional inputs.
For me, the first thing that came to mind was hosting a community garden where folks can sign up for lots. This has a nice benefit of helping to improve access to whole, seasonal foods, but I think there can be a tendency of some gardeners to be less regenerative-oriented, e.g., lots of tilling, no mulching, lots of big box store purchased fertilizer, so finding a steward who can help steer folks down more regenerative friendly practices can be a good thing.
In reading what you shared, it does sound like large perennial plants seem to capture the most carbon (vs. small, annual plants). I might suggest looking into fruit/nut trees. They take time to get established and can be hard to do at scale w/o a lot of buying of saplings etc., but can provide fresh fruit to the community e.g., through "gleaning" programs.
posted by ellerhodes at 5:34 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Depending on where you buy the land, you'll really want a local expertise on what can be done with any particular lot -- e.g., are there any restrictions to activities, sensitive areas/zoning, etc. And, most importantly, what will grow well, without too much additional inputs.
For me, the first thing that came to mind was hosting a community garden where folks can sign up for lots. This has a nice benefit of helping to improve access to whole, seasonal foods, but I think there can be a tendency of some gardeners to be less regenerative-oriented, e.g., lots of tilling, no mulching, lots of big box store purchased fertilizer, so finding a steward who can help steer folks down more regenerative friendly practices can be a good thing.
In reading what you shared, it does sound like large perennial plants seem to capture the most carbon (vs. small, annual plants). I might suggest looking into fruit/nut trees. They take time to get established and can be hard to do at scale w/o a lot of buying of saplings etc., but can provide fresh fruit to the community e.g., through "gleaning" programs.
posted by ellerhodes at 5:34 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sure? Why not? Only from my perspective you would miss out on a lot of potential joy by just being involved at a distance.
So, you could start small...
Initially investing as a shareholder / direct credit in existing Regen projects is probably going to be easiest from an admin perspective and give you a chance to learn about different approaches and so allow you to do more involved activities later on.
And think about the harvests:
Being clearer about which goals are higher priority (sequestration/ passive income /biodiversity support / disaster mitigation / social support) and what work you will happily commit to (planting / landlord admin / project coordinator / syntropic agriculture expert) should also help you reflect on what yields you want most.
You could also get your hands a little bit dirty and find out what would be a good pioneer species mix for your region, get some clay and potting mix and make seed balls to throw from the window of your car into the expensive empty fields for the eventual time when it does rain.
And /or
Do a permaculture course (do your due diligence for finding a good, reputable teacher)and connect directly with people plants and place but take on the niche of coordinating tenure and admin for people who would much rather be growing.
And/ or
Just carbon farm where you are right now and explore the idea of collaborating with others on a Miyawaki urban forest that you can visit?
posted by pipstar at 6:18 AM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
So, you could start small...
Initially investing as a shareholder / direct credit in existing Regen projects is probably going to be easiest from an admin perspective and give you a chance to learn about different approaches and so allow you to do more involved activities later on.
And think about the harvests:
Being clearer about which goals are higher priority (sequestration/ passive income /biodiversity support / disaster mitigation / social support) and what work you will happily commit to (planting / landlord admin / project coordinator / syntropic agriculture expert) should also help you reflect on what yields you want most.
You could also get your hands a little bit dirty and find out what would be a good pioneer species mix for your region, get some clay and potting mix and make seed balls to throw from the window of your car into the expensive empty fields for the eventual time when it does rain.
And /or
Do a permaculture course (do your due diligence for finding a good, reputable teacher)and connect directly with people plants and place but take on the niche of coordinating tenure and admin for people who would much rather be growing.
And/ or
Just carbon farm where you are right now and explore the idea of collaborating with others on a Miyawaki urban forest that you can visit?
posted by pipstar at 6:18 AM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
It isn't clear to me in your question if you are wanting to make money in this venture, or just to spend some money for ecological benefit. If you are ok with spending money (but perhaps eventually recouping it if land prices rise), then it is a simpler thing to execute and can be very hands off. You basically would just assess your level of finances and do the best job you can with that money to set the land on a trajectory towards carbon capture.
But if you want to make money, then you need an actual farming-based plan and someone to implement/manage it. The link in your FPP lays out the basic agriculture options, from annuals to perennials, and with various levels of carbon capture. Small farms are in most places very difficult to make a profit on, and even that assumes you are putting in your own labor. Paying someone and ending up with a profit on a small parcel is a high bar.
If you could find someone local who is actively doing this kind of farming and wants access to more land, a cheap long-term lease might get both of you towards your goals.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:23 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
But if you want to make money, then you need an actual farming-based plan and someone to implement/manage it. The link in your FPP lays out the basic agriculture options, from annuals to perennials, and with various levels of carbon capture. Small farms are in most places very difficult to make a profit on, and even that assumes you are putting in your own labor. Paying someone and ending up with a profit on a small parcel is a high bar.
If you could find someone local who is actively doing this kind of farming and wants access to more land, a cheap long-term lease might get both of you towards your goals.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:23 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why do you want to do carbon-capture farming vs. just letting trees grow on the land? Do you have a goal other than making the land a carbon sink, like demonstrating how land can make money and also be a carbon sink, or actually making money for yourself? Because the only goal you mention is capturing carbon and the easiest and best way to do that is probably going to be just leaving the land alone.
posted by Redstart at 6:30 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Redstart at 6:30 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
The biggest question you need to answer is whether you are doing this for good, for money, or trying to get a combo of the two.
If you're just doing it purely for good, there's no type of farming, no matter how innovative, that will help the environment more than just buying up wetlands (which is usually incredibly cheap, much cheaper than land that's ready to farm) and preventing them from being developed and/or donating it to a conservation land trust. Wetlands are already carbon sinks, no labour required.
If you're trying to make money, too, then I have no idea what to say other than small farms (especially ones that are trying to be super environmentally sound) are incredibly unlikely to make money and are really a passion project. Most people who try end up deeply in debt. The exception to this is if you're just holding the land as a nominal farm to get farm subsidies and not really for the income from selling what you're growing. This is a very common thing for wealthy people to do.
posted by 100kb at 9:19 AM on October 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
If you're just doing it purely for good, there's no type of farming, no matter how innovative, that will help the environment more than just buying up wetlands (which is usually incredibly cheap, much cheaper than land that's ready to farm) and preventing them from being developed and/or donating it to a conservation land trust. Wetlands are already carbon sinks, no labour required.
If you're trying to make money, too, then I have no idea what to say other than small farms (especially ones that are trying to be super environmentally sound) are incredibly unlikely to make money and are really a passion project. Most people who try end up deeply in debt. The exception to this is if you're just holding the land as a nominal farm to get farm subsidies and not really for the income from selling what you're growing. This is a very common thing for wealthy people to do.
posted by 100kb at 9:19 AM on October 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
Maybe I didn't say that strongly enough. If you want to have a huge net positive environmental impact on carbon capture, flood prevention, habitat for all kinds of species, ecosystem resilience, clean air, and like a million other things, BUY WETLANDS. Your local "gross swamp" priced at pennies per acre is a priceless jewel that someone is probably going to bulldoze to build a car dealership.
posted by 100kb at 9:24 AM on October 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by 100kb at 9:24 AM on October 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
Okay, so taking a big step back: I'd urge you to talk to folks in your community before you buy land and hold it for non-development. You said you live in an expensive area. Expensive areas typically don't have enough housing. If you live inside the city limits, buying land convenient to amenities just to keep it from being developed might actually lead to more development outside the city, which means more people driving back and forth to work, and living in less dense, less environmentally friendly ways. In expensive cities, sometimes the best use of land is an apartment building so folks can live there and take the bus.
I see lots of folks with very good intentions try to prevent small lots and such in urban areas from being developed for a host of reasons that make sense to them, but often mean don't actually achieve their goals. Here's a great article (the non-paywalled kind) about how environmentalist intentions to keep land from being developed can lead to community harm.
But, maybe you're talking about land outside a city, that would be a great place for a specific kind of farm or to remain undeveloped. I still think this is the level of philanthropy where it's great to talk to land use experts and see if there are existing projects you could help support or expand.
Farming is a huge project, not to be undertaken lightly.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:20 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I see lots of folks with very good intentions try to prevent small lots and such in urban areas from being developed for a host of reasons that make sense to them, but often mean don't actually achieve their goals. Here's a great article (the non-paywalled kind) about how environmentalist intentions to keep land from being developed can lead to community harm.
But, maybe you're talking about land outside a city, that would be a great place for a specific kind of farm or to remain undeveloped. I still think this is the level of philanthropy where it's great to talk to land use experts and see if there are existing projects you could help support or expand.
Farming is a huge project, not to be undertaken lightly.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:20 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Because, if you're in a drought-prone area, starting any kind of farm could be an extraordinarily water-intensive activity, even if you're planting native species can thrive as adults in local conditions. These plants often need care and watering to get them established. If you plant a bunch of stuff (or hire someone to plant a bunch of stuff) and don't water it and it dies, it's incredibly wasteful and resource-intensive.
As a negative example of what can happen: we just had a situation in my town where our bureau of transportation got a grant to plant 30 trees on a small piece of land it owns in a traffic median. It paid a contractor to plant the trees over a year and water them for another year. And a year later, after a summer without care of watering, many of the trees are dead because our bureau of transportation just isn't set up to take care of trees.
It's incredibly easy to initiate projects, but difficult to do them well and maintain them.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:45 AM on October 17, 2023
As a negative example of what can happen: we just had a situation in my town where our bureau of transportation got a grant to plant 30 trees on a small piece of land it owns in a traffic median. It paid a contractor to plant the trees over a year and water them for another year. And a year later, after a summer without care of watering, many of the trees are dead because our bureau of transportation just isn't set up to take care of trees.
It's incredibly easy to initiate projects, but difficult to do them well and maintain them.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:45 AM on October 17, 2023
Returning land to indigenous communities is one of the most effective ways to improve ecological outcomes. People who are not already actively and intimately familiar with the work do some bananas ineffective savior stuff that is great for the ego but doesn’t actually achieve the states purpose.
The search term you might want is “land back.”
posted by bilabial at 11:52 AM on October 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
The search term you might want is “land back.”
posted by bilabial at 11:52 AM on October 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Would you spend fossil fuel traveling to it? Might negate some benefit. If you can find someone already doing this, you could buy in to an existing effort. Thank you for taking action, it's obviously not simple, but incredibly important.
posted by theora55 at 12:53 PM on October 17, 2023
posted by theora55 at 12:53 PM on October 17, 2023
This is certainly doable. A friend (who has a PhD in agroecology) recently sold a house in the city and invested the proceeds in 40 acres that he is renting to another farmer who is working on long-term improvements. A key reason that it’s working though, is that he has some deep connections to the area, and was able to tap into the local network of land sales to find his property. Most land sales don’t show up on Zillow. Those that do are being marketed to city slickers who can afford to pay an inflated price for land.
posted by rockindata at 7:49 PM on October 17, 2023
posted by rockindata at 7:49 PM on October 17, 2023
Response by poster: Thank you, lots to think about! I'm not concerned with making money, just sequestering carbon. I already contribute to land back efforts by paying land taxes to our indigenous community. This cane up because every time I drive through empty farmland (with nothing planted on it) I imagine just planting a bunch of native trees. Sounds like I should keep thinking about it!
posted by Threeve at 8:06 AM on October 19, 2023
posted by Threeve at 8:06 AM on October 19, 2023
I know s'one who buys farmland on the edge of towns - to keep it as farmland, as periurban /edge-of-city land is continually taken out of food production by urban expansion. He is not a green, just someone who understands that good growing soils cannot be created, only protected.
The thing with farmland is it's in continual use /maintenance - this includes retention of its Carbon. An untended planted forest (for any species and whether created or abondoned land or 'rewilded') will always go into a cycle of carbon release /decline. Fully natural forests (if large enough) are less prone to Carbon loss. Protecting what we have is best. Spending on sensible legal protection for natural forest / prairie etc protection is another area where money is well spent.
However in many economic systems the 'commodity' with the best reliably rising value is good farmland.
posted by unearthed at 10:39 AM on October 19, 2023
The thing with farmland is it's in continual use /maintenance - this includes retention of its Carbon. An untended planted forest (for any species and whether created or abondoned land or 'rewilded') will always go into a cycle of carbon release /decline. Fully natural forests (if large enough) are less prone to Carbon loss. Protecting what we have is best. Spending on sensible legal protection for natural forest / prairie etc protection is another area where money is well spent.
However in many economic systems the 'commodity' with the best reliably rising value is good farmland.
posted by unearthed at 10:39 AM on October 19, 2023
Ok, your update makes this a bit clearer. Sorry to burst your bubble but the fact that you looked at all this "empty farmland" with nothing planted on it and assumed it was not being used and would be simple to rewild means you probably haven't done your research. The current farm owner is holding it "empty" on purpose, likely to cash in on farm subsidies for letting land lie fallow, or drive up prices on their crops by underproducing. Also! Farmers are well-connected with each other and politically powerful, especially locally. If you buy land and start to do weird shit on it, they WILL notice. The land might also have some kind of covenant/legal status that requires it to be maintained as farmland.
But even setting aside all of those issues, please don't just buy a piece of land and plant whatever on it (even native species) with no research or knowledge of ecology. Chances are there are rewilding initiatives, land trusts, or other conservation nonprofits/initatives in your local area or at the state level that could do this far more effectively with actual trained ecologists.
For example, if you buy wetlands, you can contact Ducks Unlimited* and they will hook you up with an appropriate conservation plan for your location. Even buying a piece of farmland with wetlands on it and then connecting with Ducks Unlimited will be more effective than just throwing a bunch of random trees on a patch of ground. DU works with farmers all the time, and they will understand the local ecosystem dynamics. If you buy a dry piece of land there may be an equivalent, DU is just the only international one I know of that does this sort of work.
*DU started as a hunters' organization, and that can seem weird to people who aren't in conservation/ecology. But I work in the environmental NGO world and they're very respected for their effective conservation work, especially with farmers and other landowners.
posted by 100kb at 9:40 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
But even setting aside all of those issues, please don't just buy a piece of land and plant whatever on it (even native species) with no research or knowledge of ecology. Chances are there are rewilding initiatives, land trusts, or other conservation nonprofits/initatives in your local area or at the state level that could do this far more effectively with actual trained ecologists.
For example, if you buy wetlands, you can contact Ducks Unlimited* and they will hook you up with an appropriate conservation plan for your location. Even buying a piece of farmland with wetlands on it and then connecting with Ducks Unlimited will be more effective than just throwing a bunch of random trees on a patch of ground. DU works with farmers all the time, and they will understand the local ecosystem dynamics. If you buy a dry piece of land there may be an equivalent, DU is just the only international one I know of that does this sort of work.
*DU started as a hunters' organization, and that can seem weird to people who aren't in conservation/ecology. But I work in the environmental NGO world and they're very respected for their effective conservation work, especially with farmers and other landowners.
posted by 100kb at 9:40 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks; to clarify I was talking about farmland for sale (not part of an existing farm) just as inspiration for the idea. I'll do some research on local initiatives, thanks!
posted by Threeve at 10:09 PM on October 20, 2023
posted by Threeve at 10:09 PM on October 20, 2023
« Older Entertainment at night, Central Hackney/Dalston... | Looking for more info on the Godzilla Vs Kong logo Newer »
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
posted by hungrytiger at 12:00 AM on October 17, 2023 [8 favorites]