Help me understand my relative's verbosity and lack of discretion
October 11, 2023 10:01 AM Subscribe
My relative Robert's brain seems to work differently than the rest of our relatives. He cannot keep a secret or be discreet. He brings up facts that are offensive to others. He is excessively verbose when answering questions. I'd like to better understand how his brain works, to increase my own empathy for him.
I love my relative Robert, but I get impatient with some of his behaviors.
Robert cannot be discreet or keep a secret. Many times, we've told him to avoid bringing up other people's health diagnoses / tragedy / death / divorce. He completely agreed that it would be hurtful and a bad idea to bring it up. At the next gathering, he held it in for 10 minutes and then brought up the sensitive topic. E.g. "I heard about your miscarriage. I read an article about how caffeine can cause miscarriages, so maybe your miscarriage was caused by you drinking coffee" or "Now that your husband left you, and you are middle-aged, it's statistically harder for you to find a new man. You should lose weight to improve your chances." It doesn't seem to come from a place of malice. He seems to think he's providing useful relevant information.
Also, Robert is very verbose because he wants to give a long answer to every question. If I ask, "Did your daughter find a new apartment to rent?", he'll talk for many minutes about the evolution of apartment rentals over the past 30 years, finally culminating in saying that his daughter just signed a lease. Or he'll give a lengthy description of every place his daughter has ever lived, starting from her childhood home. His answers are well-organized like a lecture. The lecture is interesting the first time, but if I see him a week later and ask "Did your daughter move into her new apartment yet?" he'll give the entire lecture verbatim again, with the single new sentence that she's moving next week.
In the past few years, as Robert has gotten older, he's become prone to scams. He forwards clickbait every day to the rest of us. He has started falling prey to scams that ask for money. This has caused great distress to his children.
1. Robert is clearly able to avoid certain topics in social settings. He never mentions sex. He doesn't talk about bodily functions. If he can follow "Don't talk about sex in social situations", why can't he follow "Don't bring up Debra's cancer diagnosis at lunch with Debra"? Both requests / social-rules seem equally clear, and I don't understand why he can follow one but not the other. Is it because he thinks it's more important to give Debra information (e.g. clickbait cancer spam) than to avoid our request for discretion? Is it because he gradually forgot about the request for discretion? Is it because it takes willpower to be discreet and he ran out of willpower?
2. If I want Robert to avoid bringing up a sensitive topic, is there a way to frame my request to make it easier for Robert to comply? One of my relatives needs to go into the hospital soon. I'm already dreading the times that Robert is going to inappropriately tell others about the hospital stay and violate my relative's privacy. We already hide many sensitive topics from Robert, but sometimes logistics make it hard to hide without ostracizing Robert, which we don't want to do. Is there a way for me to ask in a different way, or to give a longer explanation of why it's important to be discreet?
3. I know you cannot diagnose Robert over the internet. Can you tell me what could be causing these behaviors, so I can learn more about it? Could he be on the autism spectrum? I'd like to get links to learn more about these specific behaviors, so that I can have more empathy and understanding.
I love my relative Robert, but I get impatient with some of his behaviors.
Robert cannot be discreet or keep a secret. Many times, we've told him to avoid bringing up other people's health diagnoses / tragedy / death / divorce. He completely agreed that it would be hurtful and a bad idea to bring it up. At the next gathering, he held it in for 10 minutes and then brought up the sensitive topic. E.g. "I heard about your miscarriage. I read an article about how caffeine can cause miscarriages, so maybe your miscarriage was caused by you drinking coffee" or "Now that your husband left you, and you are middle-aged, it's statistically harder for you to find a new man. You should lose weight to improve your chances." It doesn't seem to come from a place of malice. He seems to think he's providing useful relevant information.
Also, Robert is very verbose because he wants to give a long answer to every question. If I ask, "Did your daughter find a new apartment to rent?", he'll talk for many minutes about the evolution of apartment rentals over the past 30 years, finally culminating in saying that his daughter just signed a lease. Or he'll give a lengthy description of every place his daughter has ever lived, starting from her childhood home. His answers are well-organized like a lecture. The lecture is interesting the first time, but if I see him a week later and ask "Did your daughter move into her new apartment yet?" he'll give the entire lecture verbatim again, with the single new sentence that she's moving next week.
In the past few years, as Robert has gotten older, he's become prone to scams. He forwards clickbait every day to the rest of us. He has started falling prey to scams that ask for money. This has caused great distress to his children.
1. Robert is clearly able to avoid certain topics in social settings. He never mentions sex. He doesn't talk about bodily functions. If he can follow "Don't talk about sex in social situations", why can't he follow "Don't bring up Debra's cancer diagnosis at lunch with Debra"? Both requests / social-rules seem equally clear, and I don't understand why he can follow one but not the other. Is it because he thinks it's more important to give Debra information (e.g. clickbait cancer spam) than to avoid our request for discretion? Is it because he gradually forgot about the request for discretion? Is it because it takes willpower to be discreet and he ran out of willpower?
2. If I want Robert to avoid bringing up a sensitive topic, is there a way to frame my request to make it easier for Robert to comply? One of my relatives needs to go into the hospital soon. I'm already dreading the times that Robert is going to inappropriately tell others about the hospital stay and violate my relative's privacy. We already hide many sensitive topics from Robert, but sometimes logistics make it hard to hide without ostracizing Robert, which we don't want to do. Is there a way for me to ask in a different way, or to give a longer explanation of why it's important to be discreet?
3. I know you cannot diagnose Robert over the internet. Can you tell me what could be causing these behaviors, so I can learn more about it? Could he be on the autism spectrum? I'd like to get links to learn more about these specific behaviors, so that I can have more empathy and understanding.
It sounds like Robert has very poor impulse control. Lack of good brain development/ brain injury can cause problems. Lots of babies fall or are dropped, with damage that is not readily apparent. Fetal exposure to drugs/ alcohol causes various issues depending on stages of brain development. Viruses may cause damage, or lack of oxygen in pregnancy/ birth. Or just random genetics. Age can degrade the brain functions that help us assess risk, assess honesty and manage impulses, so, of course, we geezers are at risk for scams.
Distraction is effective. Prime Robert with questions about a non-explosive topic, not politics or religion or secrets, but weather, cars, books, music. Learn to forcefully interrupt, overtalkers can't control themselves, so ignore propriety. Robert, what were you telling me earlier about typhoons/ the Booker Prize, electric cars? I am an overtalker, not nearly that bad, my brother was worse. My elderly aunt told the same lengthy stories. I'd just wade in and wrestle them in to a new subject.
The affectionate teasing is a great idea. If Robert cares about his behavior, my brother wore a rubber band on his wrist to snap when he observed himself doing certain unwanted behaviors. Some friends would say Snap that rubber band, buddy and he'd laugh and try to talk less.
posted by theora55 at 10:43 AM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Distraction is effective. Prime Robert with questions about a non-explosive topic, not politics or religion or secrets, but weather, cars, books, music. Learn to forcefully interrupt, overtalkers can't control themselves, so ignore propriety. Robert, what were you telling me earlier about typhoons/ the Booker Prize, electric cars? I am an overtalker, not nearly that bad, my brother was worse. My elderly aunt told the same lengthy stories. I'd just wade in and wrestle them in to a new subject.
The affectionate teasing is a great idea. If Robert cares about his behavior, my brother wore a rubber band on his wrist to snap when he observed himself doing certain unwanted behaviors. Some friends would say Snap that rubber band, buddy and he'd laugh and try to talk less.
posted by theora55 at 10:43 AM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wanted to add: there's no need to give Robert a long explanation of why his tendencies are so bothersome and why his behavior causes so many problems and describing the exact social mechanics of the situation which you assume he doesn't understand. Instead if you just say, "Robert, you know how you let the cat out the bag sometimes? Well, how about this - the next time you're about to say something you shouldn't, I'll say SYCAMORE and that's your cue. Okay? Love you bro! How did your trip go?"
posted by MiraK at 10:45 AM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 10:45 AM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Your description sounds to me like many of the autistic adults I used to serve in therapeutic settings.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:48 AM on October 11, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:48 AM on October 11, 2023 [38 favorites]
Best answer: Um, autistic adult here. I do this. It's like one part of me is watching in horror while the part that controls my mouth says exactly what I know I shouldn't say.
Or I realise an hour later why I shouldn't have said it.
I could speculate about why this happens, including the intense world theory, but autism is characterised by difficulties with understanding social context.
No idea if your relative is autistic but a) you're not going to be able to change him and b) you're setting everyone up for frustration if you were to try.
I have an immense amount of shame about how I am, and I can't help being how I am. Maybe it would be better if I was oblivious since self awareness does not make me better at this stuff.
posted by Zumbador at 11:00 AM on October 11, 2023 [33 favorites]
Or I realise an hour later why I shouldn't have said it.
I could speculate about why this happens, including the intense world theory, but autism is characterised by difficulties with understanding social context.
No idea if your relative is autistic but a) you're not going to be able to change him and b) you're setting everyone up for frustration if you were to try.
I have an immense amount of shame about how I am, and I can't help being how I am. Maybe it would be better if I was oblivious since self awareness does not make me better at this stuff.
posted by Zumbador at 11:00 AM on October 11, 2023 [33 favorites]
Best answer: I'll just point out that not mentioning sex or excretory functions is a general, society-wide taboo that was, for most of us, enforced consistently from early childhood all the way on through.
Whereas, "Don't talk about Aunt Gertrude's upcoming hospital visit because it will embarrass her" is a much more specific one-off type situation that isn't hard-coded into one's brain in the same way that a long-held societal taboo is. Furthermore, the exact reasons why it is a bad idea to talk about Aunt Gertrude's upcoming hospital visit, and why she will be embarrassed by it and doesn't like to talk about it, are much more complex and socially determined.
posted by flug at 11:06 AM on October 11, 2023 [21 favorites]
Whereas, "Don't talk about Aunt Gertrude's upcoming hospital visit because it will embarrass her" is a much more specific one-off type situation that isn't hard-coded into one's brain in the same way that a long-held societal taboo is. Furthermore, the exact reasons why it is a bad idea to talk about Aunt Gertrude's upcoming hospital visit, and why she will be embarrassed by it and doesn't like to talk about it, are much more complex and socially determined.
posted by flug at 11:06 AM on October 11, 2023 [21 favorites]
Best answer: Above the jump you say you want to develop empathy for Robert, but below it you make clear you want to modify his behavior.
It is ok to have both these desires simultaneously but at least recognize that they are not the same thing.
Speaking uncomfortable things and being verbose are common among autistic people. We don't know if Robert is autistic, but it's wise to consider the possibility.
If he is autistic, it is both useless and cruel to try to modify his behavior to fit neurotypical norms. Instead, I would gently consider expecting other family members to accept that his manner of speech might deviate from neurotypical norms.
I say this because neurotypical people always put the onus of fitting in on neurodivergent people, never the other way around. It is a blind spot, and one that most comments in this thread probably won't consider.
Yes, accommodating Robert may cause discomfort and even pain. You and others will have to suppress your own emotional reactions.
Autistic people benefit from logical explanations and so, for example, you can logically explain why fatphobia is wrong. This might seem like a lot of effort, but it is far easier to accomplish than trying to force someone to change their fundamental nature.
Finally, there are many reasons why a person might say hurtful things, and autism is not necessarily the cause, or to make things even more complicated, it may be a combination of factors. The important thing is to avoid behaviorist interventions that harm people who are not typically wired.
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:38 AM on October 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
It is ok to have both these desires simultaneously but at least recognize that they are not the same thing.
Speaking uncomfortable things and being verbose are common among autistic people. We don't know if Robert is autistic, but it's wise to consider the possibility.
If he is autistic, it is both useless and cruel to try to modify his behavior to fit neurotypical norms. Instead, I would gently consider expecting other family members to accept that his manner of speech might deviate from neurotypical norms.
I say this because neurotypical people always put the onus of fitting in on neurodivergent people, never the other way around. It is a blind spot, and one that most comments in this thread probably won't consider.
Yes, accommodating Robert may cause discomfort and even pain. You and others will have to suppress your own emotional reactions.
Autistic people benefit from logical explanations and so, for example, you can logically explain why fatphobia is wrong. This might seem like a lot of effort, but it is far easier to accomplish than trying to force someone to change their fundamental nature.
Finally, there are many reasons why a person might say hurtful things, and autism is not necessarily the cause, or to make things even more complicated, it may be a combination of factors. The important thing is to avoid behaviorist interventions that harm people who are not typically wired.
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:38 AM on October 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
I figure everyone's going to say autism, because autism is everything and everyone these days. However, I don't know if having a name to blame or whatever is going to help here.
. Is it because he thinks it's more important to give Debra information (e.g. clickbait cancer spam) than to avoid our request for discretion? Is it because he gradually forgot about the request for discretion? Is it because it takes willpower to be discreet and he ran out of willpower?
Probably all of the above.
I have an autistic friend who keeps calling me during work hours to come over and entertain her. She and my other disabled friend (different memory issues) literally cannot remember from day to day that I have to be at work, every day from 8 to 5, for eternity, and I can't come over and play, because they don't have much of anything going on during the day and they're bored and they don't have to work and they don't think on a work schedule and Monday through Friday are the same as weekends for them. Does it drive me nuts to have to say this daily? Yes, but there's no way to fix this problem. It's not gonna register in their brains because their brains don't work like that.
Robert can't keep his mouth shut on saying things, he can't remember that he's not supposed to say things, he HAS TO SAY THINGS. If that means Robert gets ostracized so he doesn't critique Debra's miscarriage to her face, then that may be what just has to happen. I think you have to accept that Robert is gonna Robert and accept it and work around it. I don't think there's a magic way to get it to sink into Robert's brain to NOT DO THAT if you have repeatedly told him not to and he can't not share. It's probably easier for everyone else to sigh, go, "That's Robert" in their heads and try not to take offense than it is to try to head off Robert offending.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:49 AM on October 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
. Is it because he thinks it's more important to give Debra information (e.g. clickbait cancer spam) than to avoid our request for discretion? Is it because he gradually forgot about the request for discretion? Is it because it takes willpower to be discreet and he ran out of willpower?
Probably all of the above.
I have an autistic friend who keeps calling me during work hours to come over and entertain her. She and my other disabled friend (different memory issues) literally cannot remember from day to day that I have to be at work, every day from 8 to 5, for eternity, and I can't come over and play, because they don't have much of anything going on during the day and they're bored and they don't have to work and they don't think on a work schedule and Monday through Friday are the same as weekends for them. Does it drive me nuts to have to say this daily? Yes, but there's no way to fix this problem. It's not gonna register in their brains because their brains don't work like that.
Robert can't keep his mouth shut on saying things, he can't remember that he's not supposed to say things, he HAS TO SAY THINGS. If that means Robert gets ostracized so he doesn't critique Debra's miscarriage to her face, then that may be what just has to happen. I think you have to accept that Robert is gonna Robert and accept it and work around it. I don't think there's a magic way to get it to sink into Robert's brain to NOT DO THAT if you have repeatedly told him not to and he can't not share. It's probably easier for everyone else to sigh, go, "That's Robert" in their heads and try not to take offense than it is to try to head off Robert offending.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:49 AM on October 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: (On preview, I agree with Jenfullmoon!) Just to add another data point: I know several Roberts personally (including my dad) and none of them are on the autism spectrum afaict. My dad, for instance, is gregarious, extroverted, socially skilled... so much that he has an extremely successful in sales & sales-related work. He's been reading and understanding and "working" people for fun and profit throughout his career. His chattiness, his inappropriate disclosures of other people's sensitive information, his propensity to give repeated lectures, and his (supposedly) well intentioned fat-phobia/racism/offensiveness/thoughtlessness are all IMO the result of his privilege-blindness, his cultural biases, and his love of hearing himself talk. Plus other people's willingness to let him get away with it (see: privilege).
So while Robert may well be autistic, but he may equally be *not*. I don't think his inner workings are necessarily relevant to you as long as you all can find ways to deal with him. Be blunt, be willing to interrupt, develop some humor, don't coddle his feelings, treat him like the adult he is!
posted by MiraK at 11:55 AM on October 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
So while Robert may well be autistic, but he may equally be *not*. I don't think his inner workings are necessarily relevant to you as long as you all can find ways to deal with him. Be blunt, be willing to interrupt, develop some humor, don't coddle his feelings, treat him like the adult he is!
posted by MiraK at 11:55 AM on October 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
He might just be your family's Uncle Colm.
posted by flabdablet at 12:03 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 12:03 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Some people don't have a filter between things they know, learn or think of and things they say.
That is: Robert is told that Debra's been diagnosed with cancer. Robert cares about Debra, so he Googles everything he can about cancer. Now he has all this information, and he can't see Debra without thinking "cancer", and he can only deal with his feelings about it by spouting out all the information he found in case it might help her, make her happier, etc.
He clearly has a good verbal memory. I am guessing that early on in his life, people valued this skill and rewarded him for it. He probably is aware that he is lacking other social skills, but he is good at acquiring information, remembering it and conveying it. So in social settings where he doesn't know what else to do, he does that.
Someone else who's very online and can speak his language should have a word with him about checking sources and vetting information generally. His social behaviours will not change at this point, but his information management skills might.
But, unfortunately, the falling for scams-- if that's as new and recent as you say-- means that Robert may be going into cognitive decline.
If he has a spouse, the spouse should now be in charge of their money. If not, then whichever of his kids is closest to him. That person should monitor the account closely for unauthorised payments, repeat payments set up, etc. If he has a credit card, it's almost certainly compromised.
Please have Robert's family talk to someone at his bank, and to a lawyer, about protecting their finances so Robert doesn't run up massive debt and lose his home.
posted by Pallas Athena at 12:11 PM on October 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
That is: Robert is told that Debra's been diagnosed with cancer. Robert cares about Debra, so he Googles everything he can about cancer. Now he has all this information, and he can't see Debra without thinking "cancer", and he can only deal with his feelings about it by spouting out all the information he found in case it might help her, make her happier, etc.
He clearly has a good verbal memory. I am guessing that early on in his life, people valued this skill and rewarded him for it. He probably is aware that he is lacking other social skills, but he is good at acquiring information, remembering it and conveying it. So in social settings where he doesn't know what else to do, he does that.
Someone else who's very online and can speak his language should have a word with him about checking sources and vetting information generally. His social behaviours will not change at this point, but his information management skills might.
But, unfortunately, the falling for scams-- if that's as new and recent as you say-- means that Robert may be going into cognitive decline.
If he has a spouse, the spouse should now be in charge of their money. If not, then whichever of his kids is closest to him. That person should monitor the account closely for unauthorised payments, repeat payments set up, etc. If he has a credit card, it's almost certainly compromised.
Please have Robert's family talk to someone at his bank, and to a lawyer, about protecting their finances so Robert doesn't run up massive debt and lose his home.
posted by Pallas Athena at 12:11 PM on October 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
How possible is it to jointly-and-severally put Robert on a low-information rota?
He can't spill what he doesn't know.
posted by humbug at 1:06 PM on October 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
He can't spill what he doesn't know.
posted by humbug at 1:06 PM on October 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
My Scottish grandmother used to click her fork on her plate and say "T T T" if anyone brought up a disgusting subject at the dinner table. (T'ain't Table Talk)
If he were my relative I would talk to him privately and explain, again, how it is hurtful for people to be blindsided by talking about their health difficulties and that you, Sally and Fred all know the secret code - saying "T M I" and gently stepping on the toe of his shoe - and that will signal him to stop talking and that after the get together you would be glad to discuss why you used the secret code, by phone or by email. And if he has any advice for other people he needs to first run it by you or Sally or Fred and ask if it would be OK to say that to someone.
Since he is stating facts (which makes me think this is Autism because I am on the spectrum and I got in SO much trouble when I was young for stating facts to people. Got punched several times.) But I digress. I think part of your explanation to him should be that YOU are stating a fact. - that he shouldn't discuss these sensitive subjects. That's a social science fact.
posted by cda at 1:11 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
If he were my relative I would talk to him privately and explain, again, how it is hurtful for people to be blindsided by talking about their health difficulties and that you, Sally and Fred all know the secret code - saying "T M I" and gently stepping on the toe of his shoe - and that will signal him to stop talking and that after the get together you would be glad to discuss why you used the secret code, by phone or by email. And if he has any advice for other people he needs to first run it by you or Sally or Fred and ask if it would be OK to say that to someone.
Since he is stating facts (which makes me think this is Autism because I am on the spectrum and I got in SO much trouble when I was young for stating facts to people. Got punched several times.) But I digress. I think part of your explanation to him should be that YOU are stating a fact. - that he shouldn't discuss these sensitive subjects. That's a social science fact.
posted by cda at 1:11 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
My dad had a TBI 12 years ago which destroyed parts of his brain, particularly executive function. (Actual dead brain cells visible on imaging.) The behaviour you’re describing is similar to lots of his post-injury self.
He wasn’t expected to survive, walk or talk again. So…we just love him. It’s not a social gaffe; it’s a disability. As a family, we cope with the fallout kinda joyfully. It’s really only as much of a problem as you make it in most cases (not the scams.) my dad sometimes comes out with something really hurtful towards me or my kids, so there are times there are feelings, and sometimes I am moved to take it up with him. But still glad he’s here causing problems.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:25 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
He wasn’t expected to survive, walk or talk again. So…we just love him. It’s not a social gaffe; it’s a disability. As a family, we cope with the fallout kinda joyfully. It’s really only as much of a problem as you make it in most cases (not the scams.) my dad sometimes comes out with something really hurtful towards me or my kids, so there are times there are feelings, and sometimes I am moved to take it up with him. But still glad he’s here causing problems.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:25 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Does he really know these are things that shouldn't be done? Are there any other ways you can help teach him that these things are inappropriate? You've told him not to mention things, but have you told him why? On a similar note, are there any consequences to his undesirable actions currently? Could there be?
Robert says something about someone's miscarriage: "Robert, that was rude. It's very impolite to discus health concerns during a nice meal, especially when you've been already been told it's a sensitive topic."
The weight thing: "Robert, it is extremely rude to discuss other people's weight or any other aspects of their appearance; it can hurt their feelings and make them feel uncomfortable."
Etc, etc.
posted by cgg at 3:14 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Robert says something about someone's miscarriage: "Robert, that was rude. It's very impolite to discus health concerns during a nice meal, especially when you've been already been told it's a sensitive topic."
The weight thing: "Robert, it is extremely rude to discuss other people's weight or any other aspects of their appearance; it can hurt their feelings and make them feel uncomfortable."
Etc, etc.
posted by cgg at 3:14 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: This thread has been very helpful. I'm feeling more empathy for Robert.
Robert frequently expresses bigoted views ("Men prefer younger women", "Black students do worse in school", etc). Now I'm realizing this might also be due to his inability to distinguish harmful vs helpful info sources, plus his lack of verbal filter. I'm going to think of him like an AI chatbot that got trained on bad data, instead of feeling immediately reactive to his bigoted remarks.
Robert tries to add value by problem solving. People often praise him for it. But when he applies it to people's health problems or sensitive topics, it comes across as victim-blaming. "Maybe you got cancer because you're overweight", "Maybe your husband left you for a younger woman because you ..." It helps to see that he's actually trying to be useful in his own way, by suggesting a cause and a solution.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
posted by vienna at 3:52 PM on October 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Robert frequently expresses bigoted views ("Men prefer younger women", "Black students do worse in school", etc). Now I'm realizing this might also be due to his inability to distinguish harmful vs helpful info sources, plus his lack of verbal filter. I'm going to think of him like an AI chatbot that got trained on bad data, instead of feeling immediately reactive to his bigoted remarks.
Robert tries to add value by problem solving. People often praise him for it. But when he applies it to people's health problems or sensitive topics, it comes across as victim-blaming. "Maybe you got cancer because you're overweight", "Maybe your husband left you for a younger woman because you ..." It helps to see that he's actually trying to be useful in his own way, by suggesting a cause and a solution.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
posted by vienna at 3:52 PM on October 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Best answer: > I'm going to think of him like an AI chatbot that got trained on bad data, instead of feeling immediately reactive to his bigoted remarks.
Yes! Feeling less reactive internally in response to bigoted remarks is good (helpful for your mental health).
I want to caution you, though, that not reacting at all outwardly to his bigoted remarks is not good (harmful to the people he is being bigoted against).
The happy medium here is to remain calm and speak up to say something like, "That's hurtful," or "That sounds racist," and move on with the conversation firmly and cheerfully (not allowing Robert room to keep speaking, not letting him defend himself or his statements, not holding a grudge). Be prepared to do this always and forever. Robert is unlikely to learn, and it's going to be frustrating for you if you expect him to.
posted by MiraK at 4:02 PM on October 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yes! Feeling less reactive internally in response to bigoted remarks is good (helpful for your mental health).
I want to caution you, though, that not reacting at all outwardly to his bigoted remarks is not good (harmful to the people he is being bigoted against).
The happy medium here is to remain calm and speak up to say something like, "That's hurtful," or "That sounds racist," and move on with the conversation firmly and cheerfully (not allowing Robert room to keep speaking, not letting him defend himself or his statements, not holding a grudge). Be prepared to do this always and forever. Robert is unlikely to learn, and it's going to be frustrating for you if you expect him to.
posted by MiraK at 4:02 PM on October 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
It sounds like everyone is reluctant or afraid to confront Robert about his behavior, and as a result the victims of his remarks and his bigotry are subject to his harmful behavior again and again.
Have you tried asking him why he brought up someone's touchy subject, even after you asked him not to and he agreed? Whatever the root cause of his antisocial behavior, some part of him realizes there will be no negative consequences for it, so he simply does whatever he feels like.
Someone needs to set boundaries and enforce them, for the sake of his victims (and for Robert himself). For example, whoever is hosting the gathering could say something like "Robert, let's change the subject" when he starts going on about someone's miscarriage or cancer or weight, followed up by "Robert, you're being rude, let's change the subject."
If he completely ignores this, he should be warned that he won't be invited to future gatherings at this person's house/hosted by this person if he refuses to stop his rude behavior when asked repeatedly.
If you can't treat him like a responsible adult, at least treat him like an intelligent child who is capable of learning about the consequences of his actions.
When a group excuses the harmful behavior of one of its members, for whatever reason ("he's old fashioned", "he doesn't know any better", etc.), it becomes complicit in that bad behavior.
posted by Umami Dearest at 7:45 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Have you tried asking him why he brought up someone's touchy subject, even after you asked him not to and he agreed? Whatever the root cause of his antisocial behavior, some part of him realizes there will be no negative consequences for it, so he simply does whatever he feels like.
Someone needs to set boundaries and enforce them, for the sake of his victims (and for Robert himself). For example, whoever is hosting the gathering could say something like "Robert, let's change the subject" when he starts going on about someone's miscarriage or cancer or weight, followed up by "Robert, you're being rude, let's change the subject."
If he completely ignores this, he should be warned that he won't be invited to future gatherings at this person's house/hosted by this person if he refuses to stop his rude behavior when asked repeatedly.
If you can't treat him like a responsible adult, at least treat him like an intelligent child who is capable of learning about the consequences of his actions.
When a group excuses the harmful behavior of one of its members, for whatever reason ("he's old fashioned", "he doesn't know any better", etc.), it becomes complicit in that bad behavior.
posted by Umami Dearest at 7:45 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Interestingly running off at the mouth and not being able to shut up seems to run in families that also have members who struggle to verbalize and may never be fluent speakers, even if they are often fluent in their thoughts and writing. Essentially, the part of his brain that makes him quick to speak and come up with words to express himself is slightly over developed, so he is missing the hesitation that enables other people to stifle their words and keep from blurting things out. He thinks too quickly for his censor to intervene. It's like the impulsiveness of ADD.
Robert probably knows he does this and loathes himself at times for the things he says that he knows he shouldn't have, even if he may try to rationalize it away. If he loves you and trusts, he may actually be able to work with you on this. Naturally if you make him feel ashamed he won't, but if he is able to talk about this trait and how it has made his life harder you may be able to run interference on him by prearranging some signals - A look of horror and a mouth zipping gesture, or a visible wince, or you suddenly launching into the conversation agreeing with him loudly but steering in some other direction could work IF and only if Robert would like this kind of assistance. He's got to feel rescued for it to work or he will wait through your entire diversion and then say it after all.
Also be aware that when something makes him anxious he may be more likely to blurt it out - the same way if you have a broken toe your chances of stubbing it seem to go up almost exponentially. The tension about not saying something can be the trigger that causes him to say it, because the tension keeps the idea popping back into his head.
This means that talking to him about Aunt Gertrude's diagnosis being an inappropriate subject doesn't help, BUT taking twenty minutes and letting him tell you all the things he shouldn't tell her may get it out of his system before he goes into the room with her.
People like Robert also sometimes finds it helps to do something like hold their fingers crossed while they are with Auntie Gertrude as a kinetic and sensory reminder not to talk about that diagnosis, until they leave her presence and can uncross their fingers.
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:10 PM on October 12, 2023
Robert probably knows he does this and loathes himself at times for the things he says that he knows he shouldn't have, even if he may try to rationalize it away. If he loves you and trusts, he may actually be able to work with you on this. Naturally if you make him feel ashamed he won't, but if he is able to talk about this trait and how it has made his life harder you may be able to run interference on him by prearranging some signals - A look of horror and a mouth zipping gesture, or a visible wince, or you suddenly launching into the conversation agreeing with him loudly but steering in some other direction could work IF and only if Robert would like this kind of assistance. He's got to feel rescued for it to work or he will wait through your entire diversion and then say it after all.
Also be aware that when something makes him anxious he may be more likely to blurt it out - the same way if you have a broken toe your chances of stubbing it seem to go up almost exponentially. The tension about not saying something can be the trigger that causes him to say it, because the tension keeps the idea popping back into his head.
This means that talking to him about Aunt Gertrude's diagnosis being an inappropriate subject doesn't help, BUT taking twenty minutes and letting him tell you all the things he shouldn't tell her may get it out of his system before he goes into the room with her.
People like Robert also sometimes finds it helps to do something like hold their fingers crossed while they are with Auntie Gertrude as a kinetic and sensory reminder not to talk about that diagnosis, until they leave her presence and can uncross their fingers.
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:10 PM on October 12, 2023
Best answer: Most of the answers here are coming from a perspective of presumed neurodivergence. Given that, I have to say that your update is quite disturbing to me. Saying bigoted things is not neurodivergence. Robert is not an AI chatbot. (Neurodivergent people aren’t machines! That is in fact quite a harmful stereotype!) Robert has two separate issues, impulsivity and being a bigot, and they are NOT THE SAME.
Robert’s impulsivity and social norm mismatches may (or may not) be caused by neurodivergence. But when he expresses racism, anti-fatness, and misogyny? That most certainly is not. You need to shut it down and enforce the same boundaries with him that you would with anyone else.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 5:19 PM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Robert’s impulsivity and social norm mismatches may (or may not) be caused by neurodivergence. But when he expresses racism, anti-fatness, and misogyny? That most certainly is not. You need to shut it down and enforce the same boundaries with him that you would with anyone else.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 5:19 PM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Saying bigoted things is not neurodivergence.
Agreed, but this was not in the original question.
I agree those things should be shut down. My dad, mentioned above, doesn’t say those things because he doesn’t think them.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:39 AM on October 13, 2023
Agreed, but this was not in the original question.
I agree those things should be shut down. My dad, mentioned above, doesn’t say those things because he doesn’t think them.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:39 AM on October 13, 2023
This thread is closed to new comments.
It seems like you (and your family) might benefit from:
1. Chilling out a bit? I know, I know, Robert causes a lot of problems, and you sound like you're really tired of having to put up with this man's affliction, and far be it from me to minimize your distress. But as annoying personality traits go, this one seems particularly non-malicious., you know? Your family are not doing yourselves any favors by framing his behavior as a ~violation~ and a ~betrayal of trust~ and a ~shameful, deliberate transgression~ as opposed to "ugh there goes Robert again, eyeroll".
2. Dealing with Robert by turning his behavior into an affectionate inside joke with the whole family, like, "Shush, Robert," or "Oi, Robert, here, put some cake in your mouth," or "Not cool, buddy," or "Bro you told me that story last week - so, guess what happened at my book club.." or "Roooobert, you're doing the thiiiiiing," or "Hang on, does anyone need to use the restroom, Robert's getting started on one of his famous lectures!" or simply, "Hold that thought," and move on with the conversation to interrupt his longwindedness. Please do all this with good humor and loads of affection towards Robert. Actually ply him with extra helpings of cake. Give him hugs to take the sting out of it. Show him that he is loved and appreciated not just in spite of his foibles but even *for* them.
3. Agreeing on a code word with Robert beforehand to head him off in case he happens to mention sensitive topics. If he starts to say something about your relative being in the hospital, you might say, "Sycamore!" and that's his cue to stop. Again, please try to do this in good humor and with affection. Ideally, saying "Sycamore!" makes everyone chuckle, including Robert.
posted by MiraK at 10:33 AM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]