Kick out show offy singer?
September 14, 2023 3:20 AM Subscribe
Singer steps on toes at every turn. Tonight we floated the idea of her leaving. I feel bad but believe this drama has been messing with our church group for a long time.
Hey guys, I have gotten good advice on here before and am trying again.
I am in a church band with my husband and another girl in the church. I met my husband through the band. We have a similar sense of humor and are the most laid back in the group.
This girl - B - had a reputation for stirring the pot before I ever met her. There used to be another guy, almost a caricature and funny in his own way, who left the band because she was so belligerent that she must be on every practice. Another guy who could be a good resource on piano generally avoids the band bc he dated her for like a month, and she was pretty loud about not being able to move on.
This also really got me - about a year ago she reported my husband for dating me since his divorce at the time wasn’t finalized. We got through it but have never been 100% cool.
So, my husband plays guitar. I sing and can do harmonies on the fly. B was a musical theater kid. She can really belt it out. I grew up in choir. My voice is nice. Mine has warmth and consistency, hers has more of a ringing sound, and she can do a few fancy ooohs. We’ve tried some percussion but it never quite materializes.
We hold informal worship nights for our friends at rotating locations in our homes. My real issue is that my husband and I could take or leave these worship nights, while B is very preoccupied with them, sending a barrage of texts to make sure they happen.
I originally wrote a lot more, but I think the gist of it is that B knows how to do one thing really well, and that’s lead a song. She can’t harmonize easily and seems to space out if she’s not directly involved. She complains a lot about not knowing what to do during our songs. I think she tries to take more than her share of songs because if she’s not leading, she’s not doing anything.
She seems jealous that I’m always participating in some way on a song. I am personally jealous that I’m on harmony so much because I’m “the one who can do it,” and I would like my friends to know that I have some vocal chops too.
She also just generally treats us like we’re not there a lot of the time. The most recent get-together really bothered me because she paid so little attention while supporting that we actually messed up in a few places. Meanwhile, her songs were rehearsed to a T.
My perspective on music has never been to “wow” people. You sing a clear line that other people can build off of. I was beyond annoyed with this girl for, I mean, giving a great performance, but forgetting that *ah-hem* we’re here too.
Tonight we had a meeting with her and another group leader. We had some other concerns about lesson planning, but we talked a lot about worship night. She volunteered to leave the band, but I know this is a big blow to her. She was teary eyed the whole time and left pretty quickly.
I feel bad. I even wonder if it’s reasonable to kick someone out for singing well. She’s just not a team player by any stretch of the imagination.
Did I do a bad thing?
Hey guys, I have gotten good advice on here before and am trying again.
I am in a church band with my husband and another girl in the church. I met my husband through the band. We have a similar sense of humor and are the most laid back in the group.
This girl - B - had a reputation for stirring the pot before I ever met her. There used to be another guy, almost a caricature and funny in his own way, who left the band because she was so belligerent that she must be on every practice. Another guy who could be a good resource on piano generally avoids the band bc he dated her for like a month, and she was pretty loud about not being able to move on.
This also really got me - about a year ago she reported my husband for dating me since his divorce at the time wasn’t finalized. We got through it but have never been 100% cool.
So, my husband plays guitar. I sing and can do harmonies on the fly. B was a musical theater kid. She can really belt it out. I grew up in choir. My voice is nice. Mine has warmth and consistency, hers has more of a ringing sound, and she can do a few fancy ooohs. We’ve tried some percussion but it never quite materializes.
We hold informal worship nights for our friends at rotating locations in our homes. My real issue is that my husband and I could take or leave these worship nights, while B is very preoccupied with them, sending a barrage of texts to make sure they happen.
I originally wrote a lot more, but I think the gist of it is that B knows how to do one thing really well, and that’s lead a song. She can’t harmonize easily and seems to space out if she’s not directly involved. She complains a lot about not knowing what to do during our songs. I think she tries to take more than her share of songs because if she’s not leading, she’s not doing anything.
She seems jealous that I’m always participating in some way on a song. I am personally jealous that I’m on harmony so much because I’m “the one who can do it,” and I would like my friends to know that I have some vocal chops too.
She also just generally treats us like we’re not there a lot of the time. The most recent get-together really bothered me because she paid so little attention while supporting that we actually messed up in a few places. Meanwhile, her songs were rehearsed to a T.
My perspective on music has never been to “wow” people. You sing a clear line that other people can build off of. I was beyond annoyed with this girl for, I mean, giving a great performance, but forgetting that *ah-hem* we’re here too.
Tonight we had a meeting with her and another group leader. We had some other concerns about lesson planning, but we talked a lot about worship night. She volunteered to leave the band, but I know this is a big blow to her. She was teary eyed the whole time and left pretty quickly.
I feel bad. I even wonder if it’s reasonable to kick someone out for singing well. She’s just not a team player by any stretch of the imagination.
Did I do a bad thing?
Look, she doesn't _want_ to make anyone else feel bad. She just doesn't know what else to optimize for - she is doing what she thinks her job is, primarily, and that's to sing lead in her songs well.
If you can articulate and explain to her what kind of value she should be maximizing for (in this case, maybe _everyone_ having that feeling of joy from creating good art, from expressing their own emotions, and from feeling that awesome sensation of being _backed up_ by other singers; maybe trying to maximize that feeling, or a set of feelings, for everyone), and if you can also explain _why_ it makes sense to maximize that value (everybody feeling joy means the group will stay together, and means the audience is inspired, because subtle emotional cues are the actual core of a song performance -- if you can do that, I think this girl will embrace that wholeheartedly.
Don't just tell people they're doing something "wrong" -- tell them how to create in a way that is "right" for your particular mission.
posted by amtho at 4:12 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
If you can articulate and explain to her what kind of value she should be maximizing for (in this case, maybe _everyone_ having that feeling of joy from creating good art, from expressing their own emotions, and from feeling that awesome sensation of being _backed up_ by other singers; maybe trying to maximize that feeling, or a set of feelings, for everyone), and if you can also explain _why_ it makes sense to maximize that value (everybody feeling joy means the group will stay together, and means the audience is inspired, because subtle emotional cues are the actual core of a song performance -- if you can do that, I think this girl will embrace that wholeheartedly.
Don't just tell people they're doing something "wrong" -- tell them how to create in a way that is "right" for your particular mission.
posted by amtho at 4:12 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure why you are surprised she was upset. It's clear that this worship night is important to her, and that she gets something significant from participating in the way that she does. It is very unfortunate that the rest of the group are looking for something different. That mismatch and that no one dealt with it early on is what has caused the problem.
Unless there's important information missing here, I don't think you have done a bad thing at this point. You just want to have your cake and eat it, in the sense that you want her to leave (or to change very significantly) and to not be unhappy about it. That wasn't a realistic outcome.
The experience I have had is that however badly or well the final conversation goes, when you're unhappy with the way in which someone is delivering and they decide to leave it's better all round to let them go. Every time I've seen someone be persuaded to take back their resignation it's been a slow-moving car crash.
Let the dust settle, and reflect on whether there's anything you could do differently in a similar situation to avoid the problem festering for so long it can't be productively addressed.
posted by plonkee at 4:23 AM on September 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Unless there's important information missing here, I don't think you have done a bad thing at this point. You just want to have your cake and eat it, in the sense that you want her to leave (or to change very significantly) and to not be unhappy about it. That wasn't a realistic outcome.
The experience I have had is that however badly or well the final conversation goes, when you're unhappy with the way in which someone is delivering and they decide to leave it's better all round to let them go. Every time I've seen someone be persuaded to take back their resignation it's been a slow-moving car crash.
Let the dust settle, and reflect on whether there's anything you could do differently in a similar situation to avoid the problem festering for so long it can't be productively addressed.
posted by plonkee at 4:23 AM on September 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm kind of reminded of that guy who wrote The No Assholes Rule (I apologize for using that word around/about churchy people). If someone is super talented but otherwise a jerk, is their talent really worth it? Unless you're putting on Funny Girl, probably not. This girl literally drives people away and she "reported on you?!" The *bleep*?! And you still kept her in the band? You have far more tolerance than I do.
Seriously, she feels bad, but it's all for the best for everyone but her.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:56 AM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Seriously, she feels bad, but it's all for the best for everyone but her.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:56 AM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
You're not kicking her out because she sings well. You're accepting her resignation because in her heart of hearts she wants to be a solo artist and can't handle the teamwork and collaboration that being in a band requires. Tale as old as time, man.
posted by potrzebie at 6:52 AM on September 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 6:52 AM on September 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
Tonight we had a meeting with her and another group leader. We had some other concerns about lesson planning, but we talked a lot about worship night. She volunteered to leave the band, but I know this is a big blow to her. She was teary eyed the whole time and left pretty quickly.
What did you actually say, and what did she actually say as she responded? The specific words here matter.
posted by brainwane at 8:53 AM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
What did you actually say, and what did she actually say as she responded? The specific words here matter.
posted by brainwane at 8:53 AM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: It is often the case that the qualities that make for a good front man/woman are the same qualities that make that person difficult to get along with.
You describe B as being a "musical theater kid" who can "really belt it out" with a "ringing sound" and "a few fancy oohs." These things say "lead singer" to me. You describe yourself as having a "nice" voice with "warmth and consistency" and an ability to do "harmonies on the fly." These things say "backing singer" to me. Plenty of bands have more than one member who can sing, and while it's not unusual for a backing singer to have the occasional song, there can only be one lead singer. It's also not terribly unusual for a backing singer to be unhappy at not getting more lead singing opportunities. A similar dynamic frequently exists with respect to songwriting and whose compositions get performed/recorded.
It's noteworthy to me that she has a background in musical theater, which is solo-style singing even when performing with others, whereas your background is in choir, which is ensemble singing. These are two fundamentally different kinds of singing that leverage different skills, different outlooks on performing and different personality types. As someone who has done classical/operatic singing for many years, this is among the reasons I never sing in choirs--it's not only a poor match for the vocal attributes and musical tendencies I've ingrained over the years, but it's also a poor match for my personality because I have little interest in subsuming myself to the ensemble as a small part of a greater whole.
All of this is to say that I'm not surprised by any of the things you say about B and the role she has within the band, or by your reaction to those things. I've never heard either of you and I don't really know what the structure and purpose of the band is, but it seems somewhat likely that the band would suffer from losing its only real lead singer. On the other hand, maybe a significant purpose is the recreational enjoyment of the band members and for each to take a turn at being the lead singer. That's not quite the same thing as putting forward a configuration of the band that is the most successful.
Notwithstanding any of the foregoing, sometimes a "lead singer type" can have personality characteristics that just aren't worth it--or at least aren't worth it in comparison to whatever that singer brings to the table. That's a decision the band members will have to make. I doubt there is much chance B will have an epiphany and turn into the sort of band member you'd like to have. I guess one question is if you and your husband leave to form a band that doesn't include B, how many musicians will you bring with you. Also, for my money, this whole business of reporting your husband for dating you before his divorce finalized is toxic as f*ck. I wouldn't want to be in any sort of environment in which that was even a thing a person could do. I mean, reported him to who? At the very least that person would be dead to me for sticking her nose into my business where it didn't belong, judging me and then ratting me out in a way that could negatively impact my life.
posted by slkinsey at 9:31 AM on September 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
You describe B as being a "musical theater kid" who can "really belt it out" with a "ringing sound" and "a few fancy oohs." These things say "lead singer" to me. You describe yourself as having a "nice" voice with "warmth and consistency" and an ability to do "harmonies on the fly." These things say "backing singer" to me. Plenty of bands have more than one member who can sing, and while it's not unusual for a backing singer to have the occasional song, there can only be one lead singer. It's also not terribly unusual for a backing singer to be unhappy at not getting more lead singing opportunities. A similar dynamic frequently exists with respect to songwriting and whose compositions get performed/recorded.
It's noteworthy to me that she has a background in musical theater, which is solo-style singing even when performing with others, whereas your background is in choir, which is ensemble singing. These are two fundamentally different kinds of singing that leverage different skills, different outlooks on performing and different personality types. As someone who has done classical/operatic singing for many years, this is among the reasons I never sing in choirs--it's not only a poor match for the vocal attributes and musical tendencies I've ingrained over the years, but it's also a poor match for my personality because I have little interest in subsuming myself to the ensemble as a small part of a greater whole.
All of this is to say that I'm not surprised by any of the things you say about B and the role she has within the band, or by your reaction to those things. I've never heard either of you and I don't really know what the structure and purpose of the band is, but it seems somewhat likely that the band would suffer from losing its only real lead singer. On the other hand, maybe a significant purpose is the recreational enjoyment of the band members and for each to take a turn at being the lead singer. That's not quite the same thing as putting forward a configuration of the band that is the most successful.
Notwithstanding any of the foregoing, sometimes a "lead singer type" can have personality characteristics that just aren't worth it--or at least aren't worth it in comparison to whatever that singer brings to the table. That's a decision the band members will have to make. I doubt there is much chance B will have an epiphany and turn into the sort of band member you'd like to have. I guess one question is if you and your husband leave to form a band that doesn't include B, how many musicians will you bring with you. Also, for my money, this whole business of reporting your husband for dating you before his divorce finalized is toxic as f*ck. I wouldn't want to be in any sort of environment in which that was even a thing a person could do. I mean, reported him to who? At the very least that person would be dead to me for sticking her nose into my business where it didn't belong, judging me and then ratting me out in a way that could negatively impact my life.
posted by slkinsey at 9:31 AM on September 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the input folks. It’s helped me to feel more confident in my decision. I had not really thought to own that I’m being bullied and there’s a reason she’s not welcome.
As to what we said, Husband bridged the topic and I said I felt unappreciated at the last worship night. I said I wanted the same support I give her. She generally just said, this was streamlined, we chose songs diplomatically, we chose parts diplomatically. I said fine, but that doesn’t change your responsibility to be mentally present for the whole set. She admitted that she pays way more attention to what she is doing than what other people are doing.
She just said, “Would it be better for this continue without me?” I said, “I’ve thought about it. Yes, probably.” We wrapped up. She got up, picked up her keys, and walked to her car.
posted by halfnhalfling at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
As to what we said, Husband bridged the topic and I said I felt unappreciated at the last worship night. I said I wanted the same support I give her. She generally just said, this was streamlined, we chose songs diplomatically, we chose parts diplomatically. I said fine, but that doesn’t change your responsibility to be mentally present for the whole set. She admitted that she pays way more attention to what she is doing than what other people are doing.
She just said, “Would it be better for this continue without me?” I said, “I’ve thought about it. Yes, probably.” We wrapped up. She got up, picked up her keys, and walked to her car.
posted by halfnhalfling at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
If she needs to be the solo shining star, then she needs to be a solo act and get her own backup band that can take her. I know some musical theater leading ladies are like that (thankfully the ones where I am don't act like that), but she needs to go be Lea Michele on her own, then. And yeah, her bullying you is not cool and I wouldn't have been associating with her further after that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:04 AM on September 14, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:04 AM on September 14, 2023
She just said, “Would it be better for this continue without me?” I said, “I’ve thought about it. Yes, probably.”
This sounds to me like the break-up is already done.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:32 AM on September 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
This sounds to me like the break-up is already done.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:32 AM on September 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Either you are her back-up band, or you are not. She thinks you are. You do not think you are. If you are not willing to be her back-up band, then it's time to break up with her.
If she is into drama, she may not actually think that anything has changed, and will be back before next week assuming she is still the lead singer and star, but that her exasperating back up band has been more than usually clueless lately.
The easy way out of this that will avoid the most unpleasantness may be to allow her to fire you and move on.
Wannabe stars are usually nowhere near as good as they think they are. Can she do a duet? If she can't do a duet then she's really delusional. If she's a one trick pony she probably should be singing a capella or with a recording. A lead singer who cannot work with other voices is as bad as a lead singer who cannot modulate their own voice and sing more softly when transitions from strongly to softly and back will give their performance more power. Someone whose only talent is belting it out with or without fancy ooohs is at best a hack who is bringing the ensemble down.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:33 AM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
If she is into drama, she may not actually think that anything has changed, and will be back before next week assuming she is still the lead singer and star, but that her exasperating back up band has been more than usually clueless lately.
The easy way out of this that will avoid the most unpleasantness may be to allow her to fire you and move on.
Wannabe stars are usually nowhere near as good as they think they are. Can she do a duet? If she can't do a duet then she's really delusional. If she's a one trick pony she probably should be singing a capella or with a recording. A lead singer who cannot work with other voices is as bad as a lead singer who cannot modulate their own voice and sing more softly when transitions from strongly to softly and back will give their performance more power. Someone whose only talent is belting it out with or without fancy ooohs is at best a hack who is bringing the ensemble down.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:33 AM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, it sounds like the band consisted of you, your husband, and her, and that you don't like her very much. In that case, it makes sense for her to be out - it's not like you guys are locked into a record deal, so why spend so much time with someone you don't like?
But c'mon, you just don't like her. Otherwise you wouldn't have added that detail about her reporting you and your husband for dating. That's fine, you don't have to like everyone! I wouldn't blame her for the dating thing though - that's on you for belonging to a church where that kind of thing happens.
posted by Ragged Richard at 1:15 PM on September 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
But c'mon, you just don't like her. Otherwise you wouldn't have added that detail about her reporting you and your husband for dating. That's fine, you don't have to like everyone! I wouldn't blame her for the dating thing though - that's on you for belonging to a church where that kind of thing happens.
posted by Ragged Richard at 1:15 PM on September 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, it sounds like you don't like her - you're probably, unconsciously, interpreting her motives as some kind of status play or, as you said, "bullying". She's probably just behaving the only way she knows how, crossed with not knowing how important it is, to you, that she pay attention to other aspects of the interaction.
Plus, if you subtly haven't liked her from early in your collaboration, she's probably picked up on that, which makes her unable to connect with you in a way that would help; if you were friends and liked each other, you'd naturally both notice how happy the other person was, and want to support them. A better connection would allow you to talk to her as an equal, and in a way that asked her why she was doing things the way she was, and to just ask her for what you really need: a feeling, a true sense that your contribution was appreciated by her, for all the songs to be exquisite and all the harmonies and details to be excellent.
Instead, you're (and commenters here are) talking about whether she's a "solo artist", whether she's "into drama" and whether you should kick her out of your group.
This kind of situation is _exactly_ what can teach us the most about how to be a person who ... has whatever kind of effect you all really want to have in the world.
If you're already had six conversations, two lunches, and/or done one or two fun team-building outings together, then of course it's fine to move on and try to serve the world in a way that gives better results. But please be clear about why you are both doing what you are both doing, and recognize, if indeed it is true, that you may be reacting to some things in ways that she couldn't control.
That said, I tend to avoid "musical theater people" myself, so I do get that. Someone who's been enabled to study musical theater as a college major has had a very different set of life experiences than I have.
posted by amtho at 3:29 PM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Plus, if you subtly haven't liked her from early in your collaboration, she's probably picked up on that, which makes her unable to connect with you in a way that would help; if you were friends and liked each other, you'd naturally both notice how happy the other person was, and want to support them. A better connection would allow you to talk to her as an equal, and in a way that asked her why she was doing things the way she was, and to just ask her for what you really need: a feeling, a true sense that your contribution was appreciated by her, for all the songs to be exquisite and all the harmonies and details to be excellent.
Instead, you're (and commenters here are) talking about whether she's a "solo artist", whether she's "into drama" and whether you should kick her out of your group.
This kind of situation is _exactly_ what can teach us the most about how to be a person who ... has whatever kind of effect you all really want to have in the world.
If you're already had six conversations, two lunches, and/or done one or two fun team-building outings together, then of course it's fine to move on and try to serve the world in a way that gives better results. But please be clear about why you are both doing what you are both doing, and recognize, if indeed it is true, that you may be reacting to some things in ways that she couldn't control.
That said, I tend to avoid "musical theater people" myself, so I do get that. Someone who's been enabled to study musical theater as a college major has had a very different set of life experiences than I have.
posted by amtho at 3:29 PM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sounds to me like she's one of those people who would be happier with an orchestra in a little box, because they're so easy and they won't give her any trouble.
posted by flabdablet at 8:30 AM on September 15, 2023
posted by flabdablet at 8:30 AM on September 15, 2023
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You are not kicking her out because she sings well. That is literally 1/2 of the skillset she needs. She clearly doesn't have the other half of the skillset.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:27 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]