Mean people suck.
August 22, 2023 1:52 PM Subscribe
#metafilterfundraiser2023 Are people in general just ... sucky? Were we all just born to be assholes? Explanation inside.
I am really amazed at how much people suck. Not just what I read in the news, but everywhere. I'm a generally nice person who always wants to be nice, and it would never occur to me in a million years to be so sucky. But there was a coworker who embezzled. And a contracted recycling company that stole from our bins to resell things. And a landlord who told all sorts of lies just for a few more bucks.
Then there's all the guys on the online dating sites who wanted a "nurse and a purse" and/or a mommy or anything except me, the person. And the relative who jeopardized her husband's career by ignoring him when he asked her not to do something. And the loved one who lied, lied, lied to feed an addiction. (Yes, I know it's a disease.)
At my church the other day, the priest said that on any given Sunday, about 50% of the congregation is "having some problem," like money or extended family, and about 10% is having a "really bad problem," like DV or problems in the immediate family.
Why do people suck so much?
I am really amazed at how much people suck. Not just what I read in the news, but everywhere. I'm a generally nice person who always wants to be nice, and it would never occur to me in a million years to be so sucky. But there was a coworker who embezzled. And a contracted recycling company that stole from our bins to resell things. And a landlord who told all sorts of lies just for a few more bucks.
Then there's all the guys on the online dating sites who wanted a "nurse and a purse" and/or a mommy or anything except me, the person. And the relative who jeopardized her husband's career by ignoring him when he asked her not to do something. And the loved one who lied, lied, lied to feed an addiction. (Yes, I know it's a disease.)
At my church the other day, the priest said that on any given Sunday, about 50% of the congregation is "having some problem," like money or extended family, and about 10% is having a "really bad problem," like DV or problems in the immediate family.
Why do people suck so much?
I mean, if 10% of people are having a "really bad problem" that definitely might make some of them suck. Not sucking is hard work sometimes, and not everyone has the cognitive, emotional, and financial resources to not suck.
I also feel like noticing how much people suck can become a self-reinforcing thing where the more you notice people sucking the more you expect people to suck, and the more you blame things on people sucking.
Like, for instance, some of the things you're mentioning don't necessarily seem like they're inherently related to people sucking? 50% of your congregation is "having some problem" but, like, if their aunt has cancer that's not because anyone sucks. And I'm guessing I'm missing some context but I'm not sure how a recycling company reselling things from the trash is stealing rather than... recycling.
Anyway, my solution is to spend more time with people who seem to be actively doing something to counteract the suck/making it easier for everyone to be less sucky. These people usually do not suck.
posted by mskyle at 2:05 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I also feel like noticing how much people suck can become a self-reinforcing thing where the more you notice people sucking the more you expect people to suck, and the more you blame things on people sucking.
Like, for instance, some of the things you're mentioning don't necessarily seem like they're inherently related to people sucking? 50% of your congregation is "having some problem" but, like, if their aunt has cancer that's not because anyone sucks. And I'm guessing I'm missing some context but I'm not sure how a recycling company reselling things from the trash is stealing rather than... recycling.
Anyway, my solution is to spend more time with people who seem to be actively doing something to counteract the suck/making it easier for everyone to be less sucky. These people usually do not suck.
posted by mskyle at 2:05 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: It's not the people who are having a really bad problem who suck. It's the person hitting them who sucks.
The recycling company stole trade secrets from our bin, after they had contracted not to.
I know all about people who don't suck. I am asking why the people who suck, suck.
posted by sockerpup at 2:09 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
The recycling company stole trade secrets from our bin, after they had contracted not to.
I know all about people who don't suck. I am asking why the people who suck, suck.
posted by sockerpup at 2:09 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've suspected since the Covid thing, people are much more short tempered and judgemental. I generally don't engage in situations, so I'm not that affected.
posted by Czjewel at 2:09 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 2:09 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am asking why the people who suck, suck.
It doesn't explain everything, but the relentless toil of capitalism is a compelling argument.
posted by phunniemee at 2:11 PM on August 22, 2023 [18 favorites]
It doesn't explain everything, but the relentless toil of capitalism is a compelling argument.
posted by phunniemee at 2:11 PM on August 22, 2023 [18 favorites]
Best answer: Things tend to get worse when under pressures, and we're heading towards a recession: people are getting poorer and they're feeling the pinch, so they're starting to lash out more in all directions. Which makes many of them suck more!
posted by corb at 2:15 PM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by corb at 2:15 PM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Yeah I think a perception of scarcity (of money, of love, of opportunity), which capitalism definitely gooses, is behind a lot of sucky behavior.
posted by mskyle at 2:16 PM on August 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by mskyle at 2:16 PM on August 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Maybe from an evolutionary perspective, populations need a small proportion of people who don't feel compelled to abide by the prevailing social contract. Because, on occasion, circumstances will change so drastically as to render the social contract useless, so you need some pioneering people to change it in uncomfortable ways.
The downside of that is that these folks are jerks, kind of by definition, and they don't mind upsetting other people. Naturally, evolution is not clever enough to ensure that their upsetting antics are actually constructive or useful.
posted by quacks like a duck at 2:25 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
The downside of that is that these folks are jerks, kind of by definition, and they don't mind upsetting other people. Naturally, evolution is not clever enough to ensure that their upsetting antics are actually constructive or useful.
posted by quacks like a duck at 2:25 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
some people are damaged, traumatized, going through a crisis.
some people have only had the worst behaviors modeled for them from childhood and don't know how to behave better.
some people were never held accountable to thing one from the day they were born, and think the world is their toy.
posted by supermedusa at 2:31 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
some people have only had the worst behaviors modeled for them from childhood and don't know how to behave better.
some people were never held accountable to thing one from the day they were born, and think the world is their toy.
posted by supermedusa at 2:31 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Some people literally have no empathy or think of other people besides themselves as worthy of attention or kindness
It sucks, I agree. Focusing on the sucky people is the worst thing though. Look for the helpers.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:34 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
It sucks, I agree. Focusing on the sucky people is the worst thing though. Look for the helpers.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:34 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd say that there are two distinctive types of being sucky. Type 1 Sucky is being mean on purpose; you know you're hurting someone else and you honestly just don't care. Type 2 Sucky is more like being inconsiderate and oblivious. It's definitely still your fault for being a jerk, but maybe you didn't specifically intend to be hurtful.
I feel like in the U.S. where I live a lot of people just don't think about anyone else very often with a serious cultural fixation on the individual rather than the collective good. Skills related to interpersonal skills, etiquette, "reading the room," and general not-being-Type-2-Sucky are just not taught or emphasized.
Like, I thought it was super cool when someone said their kid is practicing lessons about personal space and respecting and recognizing others' personal space in pre-school. Sadly, I feel like a ton of people find it perfectly morally ok to do whatever they want as long as they benefit somehow.
posted by forkisbetter at 2:37 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
I feel like in the U.S. where I live a lot of people just don't think about anyone else very often with a serious cultural fixation on the individual rather than the collective good. Skills related to interpersonal skills, etiquette, "reading the room," and general not-being-Type-2-Sucky are just not taught or emphasized.
Like, I thought it was super cool when someone said their kid is practicing lessons about personal space and respecting and recognizing others' personal space in pre-school. Sadly, I feel like a ton of people find it perfectly morally ok to do whatever they want as long as they benefit somehow.
posted by forkisbetter at 2:37 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: We're just monkeys in shoes, my friend. We are half-baked, overburdened, not built for the world we have accidentally blundered into making.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:41 PM on August 22, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:41 PM on August 22, 2023 [38 favorites]
Best answer: Being an asshole can get you a lot in life. Also it makes you feel better to be putting someone else down and putting yourself on top.
I note right now someone is harassing the shit out of our office and throwing shit fits and refusing to go away until we give her a freebie she hasn't earned. She didn't follow processes completely, it's not our error, therefore my manager said she has to pay. I would bet a large amount of money that my supervisor gives this girl her freebie because otherwise she won't shut up and go away and leave us alone. Harassing the shit out of someone and making them feel bad can get you huge benefits in life. I got bullied at work and the bully won by getting me driven out of her group, even if her attempt to get me fired didn't succeed. Bullies WIN. Being an asshole WORKS.
The assholes you mentioned got great rewards, benefits, and money from their bad behavior. No payment or rewards come from being nice.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:42 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
I note right now someone is harassing the shit out of our office and throwing shit fits and refusing to go away until we give her a freebie she hasn't earned. She didn't follow processes completely, it's not our error, therefore my manager said she has to pay. I would bet a large amount of money that my supervisor gives this girl her freebie because otherwise she won't shut up and go away and leave us alone. Harassing the shit out of someone and making them feel bad can get you huge benefits in life. I got bullied at work and the bully won by getting me driven out of her group, even if her attempt to get me fired didn't succeed. Bullies WIN. Being an asshole WORKS.
The assholes you mentioned got great rewards, benefits, and money from their bad behavior. No payment or rewards come from being nice.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:42 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
Just making sure the OP has heard of "The Tragedy of the Commons".
posted by forthright at 2:57 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by forthright at 2:57 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Were we all just born to be assholes?
This brings to my mind the whole 'nature vs nurture' thing. The idea that some people are 'born bad' and some people are 'made bad' due to the environment they grow up in.
I've always believed that, while nobody is actually 'born bad' or 'born good', there are inherited traits that determine how people respond to their environment. That is, some people are more predisposed to being 'bad' than others and this determines how they respond to environmental factors. There are siblings everywhere that grew up in the same environment but turn out to act completely different and I believe this is because there are in-built tendencies that impact how people respond to what happens to them. I'm not sure if this is something purely chemical (ie genetic) or something much more intrinsic to the nature of a person - something related to a person's soul.
I have a view that, in general, people suck. By that, I mean that they suck collectively. There are plenty of non-sucky individuals in the world and I do my best to keep away from the sucky ones and surround myself with the good ones. But the society we live in, unfortunately, rewards being sucky in so many ways that there is constant pressure for people to suck because there are so many rewards for doing so.
The more we focus on the idea that happiness is tied to individual wealth, the greater the reward for being an arsehole become. Some people would be arseholes even if this weren't the case, because that's just how they're made. There are lots of people who are predisposed to not being arseholes that end up that way because they are driven to do so by the pressure to accumulate wealth and power. I feel like there are less and less 'good' people around because the environment we have created and the way humans are evolving favours the arsehole in every way.
So, no, we aren't all born to be arseholes. But if we keep going the way we are, one day we may be, because evolution will favour those who are.
posted by dg at 3:10 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
This brings to my mind the whole 'nature vs nurture' thing. The idea that some people are 'born bad' and some people are 'made bad' due to the environment they grow up in.
I've always believed that, while nobody is actually 'born bad' or 'born good', there are inherited traits that determine how people respond to their environment. That is, some people are more predisposed to being 'bad' than others and this determines how they respond to environmental factors. There are siblings everywhere that grew up in the same environment but turn out to act completely different and I believe this is because there are in-built tendencies that impact how people respond to what happens to them. I'm not sure if this is something purely chemical (ie genetic) or something much more intrinsic to the nature of a person - something related to a person's soul.
I have a view that, in general, people suck. By that, I mean that they suck collectively. There are plenty of non-sucky individuals in the world and I do my best to keep away from the sucky ones and surround myself with the good ones. But the society we live in, unfortunately, rewards being sucky in so many ways that there is constant pressure for people to suck because there are so many rewards for doing so.
The more we focus on the idea that happiness is tied to individual wealth, the greater the reward for being an arsehole become. Some people would be arseholes even if this weren't the case, because that's just how they're made. There are lots of people who are predisposed to not being arseholes that end up that way because they are driven to do so by the pressure to accumulate wealth and power. I feel like there are less and less 'good' people around because the environment we have created and the way humans are evolving favours the arsehole in every way.
So, no, we aren't all born to be arseholes. But if we keep going the way we are, one day we may be, because evolution will favour those who are.
posted by dg at 3:10 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm always shocked that people don't suck more, frankly. It's a little bit of a choice of which lens you're looking through, but through the People Don't Suck lens, it's remarkable to me how much works. Lines at grocery stores, there is no reason that they work except that by and large people don't suck. Someone says or does an unkind thing, nine times out of ten they go about their day unharmed because everyone else is much kinder than them. Every day, if I look out for it, I can see an example of someone choosing a stranger's well-being over their comfort, convenience, or preference.
I think we see when people suck, and it offends us, because it is more of an aberration than we sometimes realize. I mean, I'm writing from the U.S. where our government and business class have created a pretty dog-eat-dog society, and still people are largely nice enough to one another in most interactions that things move along.
I also think we are worse as group actors than as individual actors, so we haven't been able to build a humane economy or government, etc. which is really bad on us and creates a lot of suffering. And of course the government and business (primarily media) are, for divergent reasons, really interested in amplifying, thereby creating, thereby amplifying, thereby creating more hate. It is terrible stuff. We know it is bad precisely because we are, for the most part, pretty good.
posted by kensington314 at 3:11 PM on August 22, 2023 [17 favorites]
I think we see when people suck, and it offends us, because it is more of an aberration than we sometimes realize. I mean, I'm writing from the U.S. where our government and business class have created a pretty dog-eat-dog society, and still people are largely nice enough to one another in most interactions that things move along.
I also think we are worse as group actors than as individual actors, so we haven't been able to build a humane economy or government, etc. which is really bad on us and creates a lot of suffering. And of course the government and business (primarily media) are, for divergent reasons, really interested in amplifying, thereby creating, thereby amplifying, thereby creating more hate. It is terrible stuff. We know it is bad precisely because we are, for the most part, pretty good.
posted by kensington314 at 3:11 PM on August 22, 2023 [17 favorites]
(I know it's not necessary but: donated $5 to make this comment!)
I agree with the above two comments but would take it even a step further: individual people are good and groups are bad and have to actively work to be good. This is a paradox that is core to my philosophy of the world. As soon as people get into groups it's easy to divide the world up into "us" and "them", to exclude, and to feel like taking something away from "them" is winning a fight.
But yes, also capitalism and scarcity. Not having enough to eat makes people mean and crappy. So does stress and worry and lack of sleep.
posted by capricorn at 3:32 PM on August 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
I agree with the above two comments but would take it even a step further: individual people are good and groups are bad and have to actively work to be good. This is a paradox that is core to my philosophy of the world. As soon as people get into groups it's easy to divide the world up into "us" and "them", to exclude, and to feel like taking something away from "them" is winning a fight.
But yes, also capitalism and scarcity. Not having enough to eat makes people mean and crappy. So does stress and worry and lack of sleep.
posted by capricorn at 3:32 PM on August 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
I want to slight change my comment that the "government" is "amplifying hate." In some cases yet, but I think I really more meant select electeds who are well know to most of us than, say, the government itself by its nature.
posted by kensington314 at 3:35 PM on August 22, 2023
posted by kensington314 at 3:35 PM on August 22, 2023
Lots of people wrongly believe that "survival of the fittest" means that nature has given them permission to compete as if their existence depended on it for every scrap they come upon in life. They feel that every victory validates their ascendency and in the end they are deserving because they have survived. These people run businesses and run for office, they're your neighbors and coworkers. I hate these people because, yes, they suck.
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:52 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:52 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Garrett Hardin, the author of “The Tragedy of the Commons” is a White Supremacist , so a particular kind of asshole. Don’t rely on his arguments.
I think the “people are jerks” thing may be reporting bias. Like, if 99% of people throw their paper towels in the can in the restroom, and you have 1000 people use that space in a day, at the end of the day, you’ll have a mess of litter and think “people are slobs.” But 99% did the right thing! Maybe the bad 1% encouraged a few more to act badly, and maybe a heroic soul or two picked up some litter, but you won’t see that.
Likewise, if you have 500 people come into your store, and one of them steals something, that sucks, but the vast majority didn’t, and we don’t necessarily track that. Now, if you’re lucky enough to see something great, you might get a different impression. I had a friend who was badly injured in a hit and run car vs bike collision. Someone called the EMTs, but a guy came and sat with her and held her hand so she didn’t have to wait alone. That wasn’t an earth-shattering act of kindness, but it wasn’t nothing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:35 PM on August 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
I think the “people are jerks” thing may be reporting bias. Like, if 99% of people throw their paper towels in the can in the restroom, and you have 1000 people use that space in a day, at the end of the day, you’ll have a mess of litter and think “people are slobs.” But 99% did the right thing! Maybe the bad 1% encouraged a few more to act badly, and maybe a heroic soul or two picked up some litter, but you won’t see that.
Likewise, if you have 500 people come into your store, and one of them steals something, that sucks, but the vast majority didn’t, and we don’t necessarily track that. Now, if you’re lucky enough to see something great, you might get a different impression. I had a friend who was badly injured in a hit and run car vs bike collision. Someone called the EMTs, but a guy came and sat with her and held her hand so she didn’t have to wait alone. That wasn’t an earth-shattering act of kindness, but it wasn’t nothing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:35 PM on August 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'd say that there are two distinctive types of being sucky.
I agree with this analysis but I'd add maybe a third type, the Type 3 sucky is really being in a jam for some reason, you understand that what you are doing is wrong but also for whatever reason, doing the wrong thing serves you in some way (whether it's money or not losing your job or some other opportunistic reason). And I think a lot of people, because of various pressures, are looking a lot more for ways out of their predicaments which may mean they wind up being Type-3-sucky to other people, people who may not matter as much to them as the people who they care about.
And I think, especially in the world of social media, it can really feel like there are a LOT pf pressures out there. I'm not saying there aren't pressures, just that they can feel like EVEN MORE when there are people actively upset about them in a space that feels like a public space.
I'm sure there are people who are just being Type-1 sucky who I may attribute Type-3 suckiness towards. I can be a little bit of a doormat sometimes and so sometimes I get Type-3 suckiness tossed my way (like what jenfullmoon talks about, sometimes being an asshole works, for some values of "works"). I think for me personally the question is "Given that there are these people in the world, what do we do now?" and the answer to that question is one of the ones I find super interesting as well.
posted by jessamyn at 5:05 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree with this analysis but I'd add maybe a third type, the Type 3 sucky is really being in a jam for some reason, you understand that what you are doing is wrong but also for whatever reason, doing the wrong thing serves you in some way (whether it's money or not losing your job or some other opportunistic reason). And I think a lot of people, because of various pressures, are looking a lot more for ways out of their predicaments which may mean they wind up being Type-3-sucky to other people, people who may not matter as much to them as the people who they care about.
And I think, especially in the world of social media, it can really feel like there are a LOT pf pressures out there. I'm not saying there aren't pressures, just that they can feel like EVEN MORE when there are people actively upset about them in a space that feels like a public space.
I'm sure there are people who are just being Type-1 sucky who I may attribute Type-3 suckiness towards. I can be a little bit of a doormat sometimes and so sometimes I get Type-3 suckiness tossed my way (like what jenfullmoon talks about, sometimes being an asshole works, for some values of "works"). I think for me personally the question is "Given that there are these people in the world, what do we do now?" and the answer to that question is one of the ones I find super interesting as well.
posted by jessamyn at 5:05 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
The internet lets them find each other.
And Amazon made it seem like things arrive out of nowhere i.e. props up the illusion that we’re not completely dependent on each other for everything.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 5:46 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
And Amazon made it seem like things arrive out of nowhere i.e. props up the illusion that we’re not completely dependent on each other for everything.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 5:46 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
There are many great answers here, and all of them are true. But I'll offer another angle: sometimes people are doing things for what they see as a "higher" purpose, and they either don't know or don't care that their behaviour is seen as jerky by others.
An example: years ago, I worked with a guy who was chronically disengaged, found a gazillion excuses not to be in the office, and constantly dumped his work on other people. He caused some real grief for his manager and colleagues who had to cancel personal plans, even vacations, to fill the gaps he left. (Yes, management should have dealt with it, but for some reason they did not.) I was the only person in the office who got along with him at all, so when he died I went to his funeral. There I heard about what a great guy he was, how he devoted himself to helping his extended family, including a number of teenagers and young adults who didn't have parental support for different reasons. He showed up at every school event, never said no to a request for help, etc.. He'd made a real difference in their lives. Now, if we'd known why he was deprioritizing work, would we have understood? I'm not sure, because we thought our needs were also important. But would that have made us the jerks?
Another example: a person finds out somebody is stealing from a faceless corporation, resists the temptation to look the other way/not get involved, and instead reports the crime and gets the victims their money back. The perpetrator goes to prison but their family suffers and thinks their accuser is a jerk. Are they right?
How about the person who causes a scene in a store to get their kid a free toy they could not otherwise afford? Maybe they see themselves as staging some kind of anti-capitalist protest.
Most of us are not good or bad across the board, but the same action can have different impacts on different people. Thinking this way helps me keep a slightly positive perspective on humanity.
posted by rpfields at 7:27 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
An example: years ago, I worked with a guy who was chronically disengaged, found a gazillion excuses not to be in the office, and constantly dumped his work on other people. He caused some real grief for his manager and colleagues who had to cancel personal plans, even vacations, to fill the gaps he left. (Yes, management should have dealt with it, but for some reason they did not.) I was the only person in the office who got along with him at all, so when he died I went to his funeral. There I heard about what a great guy he was, how he devoted himself to helping his extended family, including a number of teenagers and young adults who didn't have parental support for different reasons. He showed up at every school event, never said no to a request for help, etc.. He'd made a real difference in their lives. Now, if we'd known why he was deprioritizing work, would we have understood? I'm not sure, because we thought our needs were also important. But would that have made us the jerks?
Another example: a person finds out somebody is stealing from a faceless corporation, resists the temptation to look the other way/not get involved, and instead reports the crime and gets the victims their money back. The perpetrator goes to prison but their family suffers and thinks their accuser is a jerk. Are they right?
How about the person who causes a scene in a store to get their kid a free toy they could not otherwise afford? Maybe they see themselves as staging some kind of anti-capitalist protest.
Most of us are not good or bad across the board, but the same action can have different impacts on different people. Thinking this way helps me keep a slightly positive perspective on humanity.
posted by rpfields at 7:27 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
A lot of the time when people suck its because they see the person they are behaving badly towards as less fully human;
less important;
less deserving of rights and dignity;
than they are.
For example,
sexist men behaving badly towards women;
racist people behaving badly towards people of colour;
ableist people behaving badly towards disabled people;
homophobic people behaving badly towards LGBT people.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 8:05 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
less important;
less deserving of rights and dignity;
than they are.
For example,
sexist men behaving badly towards women;
racist people behaving badly towards people of colour;
ableist people behaving badly towards disabled people;
homophobic people behaving badly towards LGBT people.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 8:05 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Our social bonds are much weaker than they could be. We do best in small communities of people who are closely related to us, and whom we need and who need us. In communities like that you don't screw people around as much, because not only do they know and remember, and treat you differently, but you feel worse about doing it. And if you do something cruddy it often rebounds on people you didn't want it to hurt, and you see that it does.
This is not to say that such small communities do not have problems - you can't escape from the bad apples in those communities, so that when small closed communites are bad they can be a lot worse than living in anonymous freedom and not having to rely on or be responsible for anyone. However they do offer more training in empathy and social skills than the bigger communities where nobody is essential to anyone else.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:45 PM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is not to say that such small communities do not have problems - you can't escape from the bad apples in those communities, so that when small closed communites are bad they can be a lot worse than living in anonymous freedom and not having to rely on or be responsible for anyone. However they do offer more training in empathy and social skills than the bigger communities where nobody is essential to anyone else.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:45 PM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
People suck because there are already far too many of us, and there's less space available for each and every one of us year on year, and spackling over that fact requires ever-increasing technological complexity, and complex technologies are not only brittle from the get-go but also come with an ever-increasing variety of unintended destructive consequences, most of which become far, far worse at scale.
People feel under more pressure than we ever have before because we are under more pressure than people have ever been before. It's an old pressure, it's the same pressure that every irrupting species experiences, and to my considerable disappointment it turns out we're no better at not shitting in and not overstuffing our own nest than the most mindless blue-green alga that ever choked a river system.
posted by flabdablet at 12:37 AM on August 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
People feel under more pressure than we ever have before because we are under more pressure than people have ever been before. It's an old pressure, it's the same pressure that every irrupting species experiences, and to my considerable disappointment it turns out we're no better at not shitting in and not overstuffing our own nest than the most mindless blue-green alga that ever choked a river system.
posted by flabdablet at 12:37 AM on August 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
I always scoffed at the phrase 'the wisdom of the crowd' because we humans are invariably much more stupid enmass than we are as individuals. Which why we have mob violence. People in groups can and do far more horrendous things than they would ever do as individuals. I once saw this happen as young man selling an underground newspaper called
the Helix in front of Discount Records in the University District of Seattle in 1969. Because it was prime real estate for selling papers plus I had a crush on this tall willowy woman named Andrea who worked there. An older woman to me. Like three years older.
The background was the Vietnam War, ongoing student protests and police far meaner than you can imagine today. There had been an ongoing battle going the night before between street people and the police and a young woman had been clubbed bloody and her dress torn asunder. Such was the line in the street.
It made the local TV news as the hippies were acting up in the U district and they had tried to set some construction equipment on fire. Which was true.
What happened the next day was there was an influx of young straight couples in their 20s as we called them then -- normal middle class kids who were dressed and coiffed like models in newspaper ads of the day -- and it was SRO on the sidewalks. The influx all stood around waiting for something to happen.
And it did. Three older not hippies criminals holding a corrugated old school garbage can -- like in their 30s but that was old to me then --- came out of an alley next to a TV store and threw said can through said store window and boosted the closest portable TVs out and ran off with them in their arms.
I will never forget what happened when that window broke. That whole crowd of young North End tourists standing around made this guttural Unnh! together. As a group. It was such a deep grunting moan like something out of a porn movie co-directed by Cecil C. Demille and Steven Spielberg. It was so low and yet so loud -- it was like they all got punched in the stomach together. In a sexy sexy way. It raised the hair on my neck and arms to hear it.
Discount Records closed that instant and I got to walk Andrea (Whee!) to her car parked a block west on Brooklyn. We had to stop for a while as police car after police car after police car, each full of six huge cops holding huge billy clubs in helmets and visors drove south past us.
We got to her car, she got in and I walked home north on Brooklyn. And saw groups of off duty cops dressed in jeans and flannel shirts and packing sawed off pool cues moving east towards University Way. Man, but did I skedaddle. And met a friend named Dan on the way who'd just got in the District from a construction job in the South End. We hung out for a few minutes and then headed to my apartment. We've been best friends ever since.
We crossed 45th and there saw a long Caddy parked cattywampus across University Way while its occupants were breaking a jewelry store's windows and grabbing everything in reach. It was like we were off duty extras in Apolcalypse Now or something.
Meanwhile, the cops in the cars heading south drove down to Campus Parkway, lined up and marched North swing their clubs. And hitting every North End tourist couple they met. Who in response broke every store window for three blocks to NE 50th as they ran North on University Way.
Dan and I passed 47th and there we saw tear gas like a thick fog on University Way. The street lights shown cones downward and you couldn't see the other side of the street. Turns out it was a powder -- I walked through drifts of it on the sidewalk the next day and it burned my eyes and nose as I did. Didn’t sell many Helix that day but I did get yelled at by single old ladys -- my age now, I realize -- who were the majority of houseowners off the Ave in the U district.
BTW: People my age now dress like we're in our 30s. Men and women my age then looked like something in between June and Ward Cleaver and Jed Clampett and Granny in The Beverly Hillbillies. My how times have changed.
Anyway, tldr: Speaking as an eyewitness, people in crowds are incredibly scary and stupid. And also, I will never forget that mass Unnh! ever. That was so scary and creepy.
posted by y2karl at 5:31 AM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
the Helix in front of Discount Records in the University District of Seattle in 1969. Because it was prime real estate for selling papers plus I had a crush on this tall willowy woman named Andrea who worked there. An older woman to me. Like three years older.
The background was the Vietnam War, ongoing student protests and police far meaner than you can imagine today. There had been an ongoing battle going the night before between street people and the police and a young woman had been clubbed bloody and her dress torn asunder. Such was the line in the street.
It made the local TV news as the hippies were acting up in the U district and they had tried to set some construction equipment on fire. Which was true.
What happened the next day was there was an influx of young straight couples in their 20s as we called them then -- normal middle class kids who were dressed and coiffed like models in newspaper ads of the day -- and it was SRO on the sidewalks. The influx all stood around waiting for something to happen.
And it did. Three older not hippies criminals holding a corrugated old school garbage can -- like in their 30s but that was old to me then --- came out of an alley next to a TV store and threw said can through said store window and boosted the closest portable TVs out and ran off with them in their arms.
I will never forget what happened when that window broke. That whole crowd of young North End tourists standing around made this guttural Unnh! together. As a group. It was such a deep grunting moan like something out of a porn movie co-directed by Cecil C. Demille and Steven Spielberg. It was so low and yet so loud -- it was like they all got punched in the stomach together. In a sexy sexy way. It raised the hair on my neck and arms to hear it.
Discount Records closed that instant and I got to walk Andrea (Whee!) to her car parked a block west on Brooklyn. We had to stop for a while as police car after police car after police car, each full of six huge cops holding huge billy clubs in helmets and visors drove south past us.
We got to her car, she got in and I walked home north on Brooklyn. And saw groups of off duty cops dressed in jeans and flannel shirts and packing sawed off pool cues moving east towards University Way. Man, but did I skedaddle. And met a friend named Dan on the way who'd just got in the District from a construction job in the South End. We hung out for a few minutes and then headed to my apartment. We've been best friends ever since.
We crossed 45th and there saw a long Caddy parked cattywampus across University Way while its occupants were breaking a jewelry store's windows and grabbing everything in reach. It was like we were off duty extras in Apolcalypse Now or something.
Meanwhile, the cops in the cars heading south drove down to Campus Parkway, lined up and marched North swing their clubs. And hitting every North End tourist couple they met. Who in response broke every store window for three blocks to NE 50th as they ran North on University Way.
Dan and I passed 47th and there we saw tear gas like a thick fog on University Way. The street lights shown cones downward and you couldn't see the other side of the street. Turns out it was a powder -- I walked through drifts of it on the sidewalk the next day and it burned my eyes and nose as I did. Didn’t sell many Helix that day but I did get yelled at by single old ladys -- my age now, I realize -- who were the majority of houseowners off the Ave in the U district.
BTW: People my age now dress like we're in our 30s. Men and women my age then looked like something in between June and Ward Cleaver and Jed Clampett and Granny in The Beverly Hillbillies. My how times have changed.
Anyway, tldr: Speaking as an eyewitness, people in crowds are incredibly scary and stupid. And also, I will never forget that mass Unnh! ever. That was so scary and creepy.
posted by y2karl at 5:31 AM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Let me share a story about bad behavior in traffic. In my suburban town, there are many intersections with two "protected" left turn lanes. So a dedicated light for two lanes to turn left from one road to another. In this area there are frequently 18-wheeler tractor trailer trucks mixed with auto traffic, and the trucks tend to be in the outside of the two lanes to turn more easily. Many times I have seen a single truck waiting at the light, with a single passenger vehicle behind them. The green arrow lights up, and the truck lurches into first gear, barely a walking pace. Pause, lurch, second gear, etc. It's like watching a live slow-motion replay of a vehicle accelerating. These are big intersections, so it takes a looong time for the truck to get across. And the driver behind the truck is just merrily following along. If they had the slightest situational awareness they would see that they could easily get around the truck, well before the truck even gets across the intersection. But they don't.
My point in telling this story is that the car driver is the one hurt most of all by their unobservance. The rest of us at the intersection have to wait for the truck regardless, but the car could easily go on their way. But they don't. They just sit there, waiting for the vehicle in front to complete its interminable acceleration. So now think about a person like that who isn't willing to take a tiny amount of effort to help their own situation, and think about how little they care about you and me. Think about how little effort they would go to to help another person.
Yes, everyone is doing their best in a difficult journey, none of us get out of this thing alive. Maybe the moron driver just heard that their brother died and the best they can do is keep from hitting the vehicle in front of them. But more likely people just aren't paying attention to anyone or anything else except what's directly in front of them, and sometimes not even then.
posted by wnissen at 9:50 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
My point in telling this story is that the car driver is the one hurt most of all by their unobservance. The rest of us at the intersection have to wait for the truck regardless, but the car could easily go on their way. But they don't. They just sit there, waiting for the vehicle in front to complete its interminable acceleration. So now think about a person like that who isn't willing to take a tiny amount of effort to help their own situation, and think about how little they care about you and me. Think about how little effort they would go to to help another person.
Yes, everyone is doing their best in a difficult journey, none of us get out of this thing alive. Maybe the moron driver just heard that their brother died and the best they can do is keep from hitting the vehicle in front of them. But more likely people just aren't paying attention to anyone or anything else except what's directly in front of them, and sometimes not even then.
posted by wnissen at 9:50 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Carl Jung said "I would rather be whole than good." I've done a lot of shadow work / meditations in the last year to integrate with cut off parts of myself that I viewed as bad or evil. It was necessary because I was too nice. I ended up getting used and played and so heartbroken I barely survived it. It's not viable to go through life in this world without being bad sometimes, or at least acknowledging and integrating with the aspects of yourself that have the capacity for it. There is an abundance of evil in human nature that is not forgivable, but if you're a person who feels they are or should be nice all the time, I suspect that there may be parts of you that are reacting powerfully to things that are not truly morally abhorrent. Those reactions are your shadow speaking.
posted by tovarisch at 1:06 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tovarisch at 1:06 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have a theory about at least the domestic violence part of this. Why do people abuse others? Likely they were themselves abused or otherwise traumatized by their dysfunctional upbringing. It's generational, going back to some original abuser. Why was that person abusive? Maybe they were traumatized, too. But can so many of us have traumatic heritage? Well, let's take one kind of trauma: having your child or sibling, or more than one of your children or siblings, die very young. This trauma befell most families not that many generations ago. I've heard it said that people weren't so attached to their children then, since so many died, and that's how they could bear it. But think about that -- if lots of children routinely died now, would that make you less bereft when your own did? What if instead, people back then were not so different from us? If they were impacted emotionally about like we ourselves would be? Just that type of trauma alone could explain a lot of generational dysfunction, and the human suckiness that flows from it.
posted by daisyace at 1:28 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by daisyace at 1:28 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
A lot of abuse is rooted in war experiences, both those of civilians under attack and occupation and of serving military personnel. One of my former housemates was badly beaten as a kid because his father had been damaged by his own childhood abuse, which was perpetrated by his father having been ruined by trench warfare in World War 1.
Intergenerational trauma spreads, and often doesn't get less intense by doing so.
posted by flabdablet at 1:54 PM on August 23, 2023
Intergenerational trauma spreads, and often doesn't get less intense by doing so.
posted by flabdablet at 1:54 PM on August 23, 2023
y2karl, that is an amazing story and so well told.
There's definitely an enormous amount of unreported and unacknowledged trauma from war experiences. Back in the 'good old days', when men came home from war, they were expected to just step back into their old life as if nothing had happened, so they swallowed that trauma and just kept swallowing and swallowing every time it threatened to come to the surface. But it hurt them every single day and, for many returned ex-soldiers, it turned them mean and destroyed their capability for happiness. The victory parades and gratitude from the rest of the population died away and they were left with nothing but bitterness and nightmares. Even worse for those that came home from Vietnam, who were shunned by their communities and called 'baby killers', so they denied ever having gone.
We do this to our own people. We destroy them, turn them into monsters then expect them to just smile and go about their lives. When they, unsurprisingly, go to pieces and lash out, we punish them and make them pariahs. Yes, mean people suck. Do you know why? Because the human race sucks, given the chance, and as long as individuals don't have to take responsibility for their actions. When we are in a herd, we are evil.
posted by dg at 2:47 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's definitely an enormous amount of unreported and unacknowledged trauma from war experiences. Back in the 'good old days', when men came home from war, they were expected to just step back into their old life as if nothing had happened, so they swallowed that trauma and just kept swallowing and swallowing every time it threatened to come to the surface. But it hurt them every single day and, for many returned ex-soldiers, it turned them mean and destroyed their capability for happiness. The victory parades and gratitude from the rest of the population died away and they were left with nothing but bitterness and nightmares. Even worse for those that came home from Vietnam, who were shunned by their communities and called 'baby killers', so they denied ever having gone.
We do this to our own people. We destroy them, turn them into monsters then expect them to just smile and go about their lives. When they, unsurprisingly, go to pieces and lash out, we punish them and make them pariahs. Yes, mean people suck. Do you know why? Because the human race sucks, given the chance, and as long as individuals don't have to take responsibility for their actions. When we are in a herd, we are evil.
posted by dg at 2:47 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
In a herd we become more susceptible to a kind of stupidity that's often more potent than straight-up evil.
This much is certain, stupidity is in essence not an intellectual defect but a moral one. There are human beings who are remarkably agile intellectually yet stupid, and others who are intellectually dull yet anything but stupid.posted by flabdablet at 4:54 AM on August 24, 2023
The impression one gains is not so much that stupidity is a congenital defect but that, under certain circumstances, people are made stupid or rather, they allow this to happen to them.
Very Sorry folks, and thanks to user GenjiandProust. The Wikipedia article on "The Tragedy of the Commons" didn't seem to mention any racist or supremacist origins, but if you follow the link to the Wiki on Garrett Hardin it sure does.
posted by forthright at 5:39 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by forthright at 5:39 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's not the people who are having a really bad problem who suck. It's the person hitting them who sucks.
Hurt people hurt people. The people hitting them are often themselves having really bad problems. That doesn't excuse hitting someone, but it does often explain why it happens. Trauma can literally rewrite the messages your brain sends you, making you feel angry and rageful when you're scared and lonely and anxious, or causing your fight/flight/freeze instinct to kick in when you're not actually in any danger. So the more bad things happen to people, the more the people affected by them are exposed to things that make it more likely that they'll go on to do bad things to someone else, and it becomes a vicious cycle.
The way to try to stop that is to try to prevent harm to others before it changes their brains. You can help create a virtuous cycle of people seeing that the world is a safe place full of people who care about them by showing up for the people in your life and being a safe person for them, and helping work towards a better world where more of those safe resources are available to others.
posted by decathecting at 3:23 PM on August 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hurt people hurt people. The people hitting them are often themselves having really bad problems. That doesn't excuse hitting someone, but it does often explain why it happens. Trauma can literally rewrite the messages your brain sends you, making you feel angry and rageful when you're scared and lonely and anxious, or causing your fight/flight/freeze instinct to kick in when you're not actually in any danger. So the more bad things happen to people, the more the people affected by them are exposed to things that make it more likely that they'll go on to do bad things to someone else, and it becomes a vicious cycle.
The way to try to stop that is to try to prevent harm to others before it changes their brains. You can help create a virtuous cycle of people seeing that the world is a safe place full of people who care about them by showing up for the people in your life and being a safe person for them, and helping work towards a better world where more of those safe resources are available to others.
posted by decathecting at 3:23 PM on August 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Bullies get the lunch money. Braggers and schemers get the job. Cheaters get better grades. We are primates, we have hierarchy and desire status. The strongest and most aggressive male gets more sex. But it's not that simple. Aggression may kill or wound the most aggressive person, who loses their status. Or a smart person may learn to develop status and have influence through persuasion and intelligence. We've evolved to also reward kindness, because it helps us all survive in the long run.
I'm not aggressive, don't have visible status, and get bullied way too much, esp. when I am vulnerable due to other circumstances. Not everybody sucks, and not all the time. People can be generous, fun, funny, helpful, sweet. It especially happens when leaders model kindness. If we get to survive as a species, we might get less sucky.
You're having a shitty, sucky time. I'm sorry. Mark some territory, display some badassery. Be kind and awesome. You can do it.
And read Robert Sapolsky's Primate's Memoir, which is about primates, including humans, and is funny and interesting.
posted by theora55 at 11:05 PM on August 28, 2023
I'm not aggressive, don't have visible status, and get bullied way too much, esp. when I am vulnerable due to other circumstances. Not everybody sucks, and not all the time. People can be generous, fun, funny, helpful, sweet. It especially happens when leaders model kindness. If we get to survive as a species, we might get less sucky.
You're having a shitty, sucky time. I'm sorry. Mark some territory, display some badassery. Be kind and awesome. You can do it.
And read Robert Sapolsky's Primate's Memoir, which is about primates, including humans, and is funny and interesting.
posted by theora55 at 11:05 PM on August 28, 2023
This thread is closed to new comments.
When you find the nice ones, be sure to stick together.
posted by rd45 at 2:00 PM on August 22, 2023 [16 favorites]