Non-Salt Water Softener?
August 12, 2023 2:13 PM Subscribe
Family home has hard water, not sure what the numbers are. Softner was removed 40 years ago, copper pipes have been damaged, have had one leak. Looking to install a very low maintenance solution, a NON-salt softener. What would be your recommendations, both technology and specific units?
Response by poster: House is in Rockland. Plumber and contractor said the pipe damage was caused by the lack of a softener for the past 40 years.
Sister wants to avoid dealing with salt every few months.
posted by Sophont at 3:57 PM on August 12, 2023
Sister wants to avoid dealing with salt every few months.
posted by Sophont at 3:57 PM on August 12, 2023
I live in a place with legendarily hard water and I’ve been very happy with my Scaleblaster. It does not remove the calcium, it just uses magnetism to reconfigure the shape of it to prevent scaling.
You would not be out of line to doubt that prospect but I did some testing, and yeah it works.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:44 PM on August 12, 2023
You would not be out of line to doubt that prospect but I did some testing, and yeah it works.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:44 PM on August 12, 2023
All I've heard is that the magnetic water treatment devices don't work. I've never gotten a good answer on how they could work in the first place, since the minerals aren't removed from the water.
posted by coberh at 9:07 PM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by coberh at 9:07 PM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've never gotten a good answer on how they could work in the first place, since the minerals aren't removed from the water.
If you want minerals removed from the water it’s the wrong tool. If you just want to stop calcium from building up in the pipes and blocking faucets and shower heads it works fine.
See the test above, along with the attached comments from a chemist about exactly how it works.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:22 PM on August 12, 2023
If you want minerals removed from the water it’s the wrong tool. If you just want to stop calcium from building up in the pipes and blocking faucets and shower heads it works fine.
See the test above, along with the attached comments from a chemist about exactly how it works.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:22 PM on August 12, 2023
Well water? Have any whole house filters already?
I can't vouch for this because I haven't used it yet (it's in boxes) but for my very hard well water which is strangling my copper pipes to death: I'll be trying siliphos, which is "the trade-name for a natural polyphosphate mineral" and is supposed to help with scale and corrosion issues.
I went with a spin down filter with siliphos because I need to remove large-ish particles anyways. Then (besides sediment & carbon) I've got a whole house filter for iron and manganese.
I specifically went with ispring for the spin-down and three filter setup because they're sold at the major big box stores as well as amazon. The company seems pretty alright and according to reviews are helpful. But for filters and filter housings, most of the brands you'll find are selling very similar products.
Filters are pretty much it for making hard water less destructive, if you don't want to deal with a water softener. (Besides magnets, apparently, which is news to me!) You do have to change them every so often depending on the setup, typically three times a year at the most. There's reverse osmosis, but that looks like expensive overkill which will be itself hurt by the hard water. There are also some extremely fancy and pricy filters that are meant to deal with very high levels of things like iron. Some of them back flush automatically to clean themselves.
Which brings me to the main thing:
Has a water test been done? It helps to know exactly what's in the water. "Hard" doesn't necessary tell you what it could help to target.
I wouldn't recommend trying the kinds of filters I got unless the water needs to be filtered anyways. The effect they'll hopefully have on scale is more of a bonus.
I'm planning on eventually saying "okay water, congrats on destroying the pipes" and replacing the copper with PEX. It'll be way easier to replace parts of, and PEX manifold setups look drool-worthy.
The option i haven't explored is having someone try to clear the scale out of the pipes. Some people use an acid--for diyers, vinegar is apparently an option. I think one company blasts air through the pipes. (Okay, I did explore a little. But it seems like a risky proposal with 50+ year old copper pipes in not the best condition. Might buy quite a bit of time with the pipes if it goes well, though.)
Final thought: check for galvanic corrosion happening on the outside of the copper pipes, if that hasn't already been done.
posted by Baethan at 11:07 PM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can't vouch for this because I haven't used it yet (it's in boxes) but for my very hard well water which is strangling my copper pipes to death: I'll be trying siliphos, which is "the trade-name for a natural polyphosphate mineral" and is supposed to help with scale and corrosion issues.
I went with a spin down filter with siliphos because I need to remove large-ish particles anyways. Then (besides sediment & carbon) I've got a whole house filter for iron and manganese.
I specifically went with ispring for the spin-down and three filter setup because they're sold at the major big box stores as well as amazon. The company seems pretty alright and according to reviews are helpful. But for filters and filter housings, most of the brands you'll find are selling very similar products.
Filters are pretty much it for making hard water less destructive, if you don't want to deal with a water softener. (Besides magnets, apparently, which is news to me!) You do have to change them every so often depending on the setup, typically three times a year at the most. There's reverse osmosis, but that looks like expensive overkill which will be itself hurt by the hard water. There are also some extremely fancy and pricy filters that are meant to deal with very high levels of things like iron. Some of them back flush automatically to clean themselves.
Which brings me to the main thing:
Has a water test been done? It helps to know exactly what's in the water. "Hard" doesn't necessary tell you what it could help to target.
I wouldn't recommend trying the kinds of filters I got unless the water needs to be filtered anyways. The effect they'll hopefully have on scale is more of a bonus.
I'm planning on eventually saying "okay water, congrats on destroying the pipes" and replacing the copper with PEX. It'll be way easier to replace parts of, and PEX manifold setups look drool-worthy.
The option i haven't explored is having someone try to clear the scale out of the pipes. Some people use an acid--for diyers, vinegar is apparently an option. I think one company blasts air through the pipes. (Okay, I did explore a little. But it seems like a risky proposal with 50+ year old copper pipes in not the best condition. Might buy quite a bit of time with the pipes if it goes well, though.)
Final thought: check for galvanic corrosion happening on the outside of the copper pipes, if that hasn't already been done.
posted by Baethan at 11:07 PM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wikipedia has a very short article on magnetic water softeners. I would concur that there's no good reason why applying a magnetic field to a chemical in transit would change its behaviour (which, for hard water, is typically silting up pipes). It doesn't help their theory that the chemical in question is not actually magnetic, but there's no scientific evidence that this works regardless of any theories.
You want to remove calcium and magnesium to soften water, and ion exchange resins do that by absorbing them and using salt to detach the ions from the exchange medium and flush them away down the drain.
However, I question the premise that hard water is causing your leaks. Copper will react with acids, but calcium carbonate is the opposite of an acid and should not dissolve the copper walls of your plumbing. If the pipes are clogged, that could quite easily be limescale from hard water, but it would cause low flow, not a leak. If your pipes are eroding and leaking, it probably isn't due to hard water.
Speaking from personal experience, check your water pressure. Mine was 150psi, which caused a lot of exciting plumbing issues. I had a supply line pressure regulator, but it had died; when I replaced it and brought the pressure down to a more standard pressure for home plumbing, all my problems stopped.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 12:30 AM on August 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
You want to remove calcium and magnesium to soften water, and ion exchange resins do that by absorbing them and using salt to detach the ions from the exchange medium and flush them away down the drain.
However, I question the premise that hard water is causing your leaks. Copper will react with acids, but calcium carbonate is the opposite of an acid and should not dissolve the copper walls of your plumbing. If the pipes are clogged, that could quite easily be limescale from hard water, but it would cause low flow, not a leak. If your pipes are eroding and leaking, it probably isn't due to hard water.
Speaking from personal experience, check your water pressure. Mine was 150psi, which caused a lot of exciting plumbing issues. I had a supply line pressure regulator, but it had died; when I replaced it and brought the pressure down to a more standard pressure for home plumbing, all my problems stopped.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 12:30 AM on August 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Slghtly acid water could damage copper pipes over 50 years. First step is analysis of the water.
posted by SemiSalt at 4:43 AM on August 13, 2023
posted by SemiSalt at 4:43 AM on August 13, 2023
Sister wants to avoid dealing with salt every few months.
That will be very difficult to achieve, given that most home softening systems require salt. That said, some softener distributors (i.e. not Home Depot, Lowes, etc.) offer scheduled salt delivery and they will put it in the tank for you. Obviously this would come at an additional cost, though. And, instead of dealing with salt, your sister will have to deal with a salt delivery person.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:42 AM on August 13, 2023
That will be very difficult to achieve, given that most home softening systems require salt. That said, some softener distributors (i.e. not Home Depot, Lowes, etc.) offer scheduled salt delivery and they will put it in the tank for you. Obviously this would come at an additional cost, though. And, instead of dealing with salt, your sister will have to deal with a salt delivery person.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:42 AM on August 13, 2023
There's not enough information to answer this question. A physical/chemical analysis of the water is needed, especially pH, alkalinity, hardness and total dissolved solids. High OR low pH can cause copper corrosion. Other things that aren't hardness also can be the culprit.
Strictly speaking, all water softeners require salt. If you want a non-salt solution, you need a different technology. Depending on the problem, an RO filter could work (note that this will make water more acidic so it won't help if that's your issue).
As How much is that froggie in the window stated, water pressure could also be the reason.
posted by Paper rabies at 9:42 AM on August 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Strictly speaking, all water softeners require salt. If you want a non-salt solution, you need a different technology. Depending on the problem, an RO filter could work (note that this will make water more acidic so it won't help if that's your issue).
As How much is that froggie in the window stated, water pressure could also be the reason.
posted by Paper rabies at 9:42 AM on August 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
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If you have problem water, you need an honest water treatment specialist and that's not easy. There's a lot of BS and overselling out there. Your profile says NYC. Is this for a metro area home, or somewhere else?
My opinion: Ion-exchange softeners are the de facto standard because they work and are reasonable in terms of price and maintenance. Anything else likely will be more expensive, need more maintenance, or won't work.
posted by Glomar response at 3:42 PM on August 12, 2023 [2 favorites]