Help for my friend who's cheating but afraid to leave (and hurt his kid)
July 26, 2023 4:35 AM Subscribe
A friend of mine recently told me he's been having an affair with a past love for a year. He's been in a committed relationship with the same woman for about a decade, and they now live together and share a child who I think is around 4 or 5. He feels terrible about the affair but is too afraid to leave his partner because of the impact it might have on their child. I'm hoping to get insight and resources from you all that I can share with him.
A bit more background info: He and his partner live in a place where marriage isn't as commonplace, but they are basically married in every way but the legal one. He and his partner don't make very much money so they can't hire childcare help, and he says he often feels too overwhelmed with childcare duties to focus on how he can work to repair the relationship. They started having major relationship problems 3 or so years now, at which time his partner broke up with him twice, and my friend told me he hasn't felt the same since and is no longer in love with/attracted to her. At the time they got therapy, but now they can't afford it. He says that if they didn't share a child, he would have left her, but he's too scared to now because it might hurt the kid or make the kid's life difficult. His partner does NOT know about the affair. He says his partner isn't happy in the relationship either, but still has hope that it can somehow be fixed. But they are not actively working on it. He only sees the other woman maybe twice a month or so, but she says she loves him, and he thinks he loves her, but when he's not with her, he gets so overwhelmed by guilt that he gets confused about his feelings. I don't think his relationship had physical intimacy for many years, but his partner is not open to an open relationship.
Obviously he only has two choices — end the affair and work on his relationship, or leave his partner (which is the more fair / humane thing to do here), but what information or resources can I share with him to help him actually make a decision? He seems really stuck. I've compiled some books and TED talks to send him, but if anyone has either advice or resources, maybe I'll just share this post with him. One really helpful thing would be resources (studies?) on whether it's better or worse to stay together for a child's sake. I want to tell him that children are resilient and can survive divorce, but what he's doing to his partner is unfair and she deserves to find love. But I'm no expert here, and it might help to reassure him with some sort of evidence.
I'm sure there are similar issues tackled all over Mefi, but I'm having trouble searching for ones that involve both an affair AND a child. So I'm hoping some of you would be kind enough to take the time to respond anyway. Thank you!! (Also as much as this might sound like a fake "asking for a friend..." I really am asking for a friend. I am a woman. Ha!)
A bit more background info: He and his partner live in a place where marriage isn't as commonplace, but they are basically married in every way but the legal one. He and his partner don't make very much money so they can't hire childcare help, and he says he often feels too overwhelmed with childcare duties to focus on how he can work to repair the relationship. They started having major relationship problems 3 or so years now, at which time his partner broke up with him twice, and my friend told me he hasn't felt the same since and is no longer in love with/attracted to her. At the time they got therapy, but now they can't afford it. He says that if they didn't share a child, he would have left her, but he's too scared to now because it might hurt the kid or make the kid's life difficult. His partner does NOT know about the affair. He says his partner isn't happy in the relationship either, but still has hope that it can somehow be fixed. But they are not actively working on it. He only sees the other woman maybe twice a month or so, but she says she loves him, and he thinks he loves her, but when he's not with her, he gets so overwhelmed by guilt that he gets confused about his feelings. I don't think his relationship had physical intimacy for many years, but his partner is not open to an open relationship.
Obviously he only has two choices — end the affair and work on his relationship, or leave his partner (which is the more fair / humane thing to do here), but what information or resources can I share with him to help him actually make a decision? He seems really stuck. I've compiled some books and TED talks to send him, but if anyone has either advice or resources, maybe I'll just share this post with him. One really helpful thing would be resources (studies?) on whether it's better or worse to stay together for a child's sake. I want to tell him that children are resilient and can survive divorce, but what he's doing to his partner is unfair and she deserves to find love. But I'm no expert here, and it might help to reassure him with some sort of evidence.
I'm sure there are similar issues tackled all over Mefi, but I'm having trouble searching for ones that involve both an affair AND a child. So I'm hoping some of you would be kind enough to take the time to respond anyway. Thank you!! (Also as much as this might sound like a fake "asking for a friend..." I really am asking for a friend. I am a woman. Ha!)
As for research, etc, I believe there are studies about child resiliency and their age at divorce, and it's worst for kids age 6-12. Younger than that and older than that they tend to recover better. I think. Others can google and fact check me on that, but it certainly turned out to be true for my extended family.
posted by phunniemee at 4:51 AM on July 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 4:51 AM on July 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
There is a child involved so, no matter that there's an impression that they can't afford more therapy, they can and must afford a lawyer who specializes in local family law. The answer when feeling stuck in this situation is: focus on the child's welfare. One does that by taking guidance from someone who knows the requirements of the locally relevant laws.
There were other answers available before a child was born. This is, in my opinion (see my Ask history), the only option that has any relevance now. This lawyer may be a mediator who represents the family's collective interests rather than the specific interests of either adult party. A lawyer does not have to be adversarial to help them (not him) sort out what is best for everyone.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:52 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
There were other answers available before a child was born. This is, in my opinion (see my Ask history), the only option that has any relevance now. This lawyer may be a mediator who represents the family's collective interests rather than the specific interests of either adult party. A lawyer does not have to be adversarial to help them (not him) sort out what is best for everyone.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:52 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
He has a fourth choice of kicking the can down the road and continuing status quo. If he is weighing pros and cons may be worth having that one in the mix.
posted by creiszhanson at 5:09 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by creiszhanson at 5:09 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Since you asked for resources, I see the book "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" recommended a lot. I agree that your friend needs to prioritize his child over his own wants but it sounds like he doesn't even know what he wants at the moment.
posted by mskyle at 5:20 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mskyle at 5:20 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
what information or resources can I share with him to help him actually make a decision?
If your friend looks, he’ll find all kinds of information about kids and divorce. The truth is that when parents don’t love each other, it’s a bumpy road. But they are already on that road. The ship sailed. His child is growing up in a home where his dad doesn’t love his mum and is having an affair.
I think it’s important for your friend to focus instead on what he wants his child’s life to look like. Does he want his child to have been raised in a loving home (loving for all people involved) based in integrity? Maybe in order to achieve that he needs to see if he can raise his income and afford therapy or childcare or to separate. Maybe he needs affordable counselling from a not-super-evangelical faith community. Maybe he needs to try hard to fall in love with the mom for a year. Maybe he needs to be single. There is not one answer for someone acting with integrity and care.
But deception usually isn’t it.
I’ve had friends in similar positions and I haven’t said anything unless asked. When asked I’ve said “are you sure you want my opinion?” And if the answer is yes, I’ve given it - that the child is living a silent divorce. It hasn’t always gone well for the friendship, gotta tell you. But sometimes it has and we’ve problem-solved from there.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:25 AM on July 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
If your friend looks, he’ll find all kinds of information about kids and divorce. The truth is that when parents don’t love each other, it’s a bumpy road. But they are already on that road. The ship sailed. His child is growing up in a home where his dad doesn’t love his mum and is having an affair.
I think it’s important for your friend to focus instead on what he wants his child’s life to look like. Does he want his child to have been raised in a loving home (loving for all people involved) based in integrity? Maybe in order to achieve that he needs to see if he can raise his income and afford therapy or childcare or to separate. Maybe he needs affordable counselling from a not-super-evangelical faith community. Maybe he needs to try hard to fall in love with the mom for a year. Maybe he needs to be single. There is not one answer for someone acting with integrity and care.
But deception usually isn’t it.
I’ve had friends in similar positions and I haven’t said anything unless asked. When asked I’ve said “are you sure you want my opinion?” And if the answer is yes, I’ve given it - that the child is living a silent divorce. It hasn’t always gone well for the friendship, gotta tell you. But sometimes it has and we’ve problem-solved from there.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:25 AM on July 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
Your friend and the person he was formerly committed to but has since spent an entire year deceiving, exposing to potential health risks, and preventing from making informed decisions about her own life, are the models by which his child is learning how to behave in relationships.
Does he want his child to be afraid to make decisions? Does he want his child to lie? Does he want his child to be an unhappy, unsure, fearful, avoidant adult?
phunniemee has the right advice for him: end the affair, separate respectfully from the child's mother, and deal with personal issues before they carry over into the next generation. And HonoriaGlossop has the right advice for you.
posted by headnsouth at 5:40 AM on July 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Does he want his child to be afraid to make decisions? Does he want his child to lie? Does he want his child to be an unhappy, unsure, fearful, avoidant adult?
phunniemee has the right advice for him: end the affair, separate respectfully from the child's mother, and deal with personal issues before they carry over into the next generation. And HonoriaGlossop has the right advice for you.
posted by headnsouth at 5:40 AM on July 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: @honoriaglossop Just a friend (one who lives in a different country and happens to be awful at remembering her friends' kids' exact ages, oof). No vested interest or attempt to influence his choice. I'm sending him links for both sides — stay/fix relationship or go/kid will be ok. But your point is well taken!
posted by lavenderflowers at 5:44 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by lavenderflowers at 5:44 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
None of these answers are correct. This guy thinks he is the only person who gets to make a decision here, he absolutely is not. The right answer is that he should tell his wife and let HER decide if SHE wants to stay with HIM. Right now she’s operating under the assumption they’re in the trenches together and he’s a faithful honest guy. This clearly isn’t the case. She needs all the information and then it’s her call, not his.
Even if he decides to stay in the relationship without telling her, he’s staying under false pretences and the truth will come out eventually anyway. Tell her. (I mean I don’t expect he will, this guy sounds like scum, but he should).
posted by Jubey at 5:55 AM on July 26, 2023 [25 favorites]
Even if he decides to stay in the relationship without telling her, he’s staying under false pretences and the truth will come out eventually anyway. Tell her. (I mean I don’t expect he will, this guy sounds like scum, but he should).
posted by Jubey at 5:55 AM on July 26, 2023 [25 favorites]
The kid is going to find out when he gets caught. And he will get caught, either because secrets just don't keep that well for very long, or because eventually he's going to engineer getting caught because he's not brave enough to leave.
There are more than two paths here, and you'd be doing him a favor if you help him reframe that narrative.
And especially fuck a bunch of "obviously" - what incredible hubris, to assume he gets the choice to "stay and fix" the relationship, as if the other adult here gets no say in this or will surely enthusiastically eat the shit sandwiches he's serving up. Your friend is a coward with poor ethics, and it would actually speak higher of his character to leave and be an adult owning his problems instead of blaming the burden of caring for his own child and a partner he clearly doesn't want to be with anymore. And vice versa! They've broken up multiple times, let it freaking go already, there's nothing left to fix. Time to grow up and finish the job.
He's already hurting his kid.
No kid ever wishes their parents had stayed together in their shitty relationship. Nobody wants to watch that, but friendo needs to do something about his self-absorption before he's going to internalize that. He should hope he comes out of this with any relationship with his kid at all - and maybe try prioritizing that now while he still has a bit of control over how this goes down.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:04 AM on July 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
There are more than two paths here, and you'd be doing him a favor if you help him reframe that narrative.
And especially fuck a bunch of "obviously" - what incredible hubris, to assume he gets the choice to "stay and fix" the relationship, as if the other adult here gets no say in this or will surely enthusiastically eat the shit sandwiches he's serving up. Your friend is a coward with poor ethics, and it would actually speak higher of his character to leave and be an adult owning his problems instead of blaming the burden of caring for his own child and a partner he clearly doesn't want to be with anymore. And vice versa! They've broken up multiple times, let it freaking go already, there's nothing left to fix. Time to grow up and finish the job.
He's already hurting his kid.
No kid ever wishes their parents had stayed together in their shitty relationship. Nobody wants to watch that, but friendo needs to do something about his self-absorption before he's going to internalize that. He should hope he comes out of this with any relationship with his kid at all - and maybe try prioritizing that now while he still has a bit of control over how this goes down.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:04 AM on July 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
“Afraid to leave and hurt his kid” is often code for “Don’t want to leave because I like having both.”
posted by Melismata at 6:08 AM on July 26, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 6:08 AM on July 26, 2023 [38 favorites]
Best answer: He is already hurting his kid. Growing up with parents who are mostly unhappy together and staying together for the kids isn't actually good for kids. But he is young enough now that whatever he's experiencing at the moment, whether it turns out to be "my parents were unhappy together and separated" or "my parents were unhappy together but recommitted to each other, found the budget for therapy, and found ways to be better partners for each other", is probably not anything he'll remember too strongly. If your friend sticks it out another couple of years before getting caught or moving out, the kid is going to remember more. So your friend needs to make a decision sooner than later, and if he can't do that for himself I get it, but he should do it for his kid.
That said, yes, he should tell his partner the truth and that may mean that the option to stay and work on it is taken off the table. So be it. Tell her now, and if he can't honestly say that he's sure he wants to stay and fix things with her if she wants that, then tell her that, too. Give her all the facts, let her decide what choices she is willing to offer him.
I would suggest stepping away from the affair partner regardless. He either is about to be working hard on his marriage, or working hard on setting up his new life with a focus on what is good for his kid, and in neither case does having an affair partner in the mix help those goals.
posted by Stacey at 6:19 AM on July 26, 2023 [19 favorites]
That said, yes, he should tell his partner the truth and that may mean that the option to stay and work on it is taken off the table. So be it. Tell her now, and if he can't honestly say that he's sure he wants to stay and fix things with her if she wants that, then tell her that, too. Give her all the facts, let her decide what choices she is willing to offer him.
I would suggest stepping away from the affair partner regardless. He either is about to be working hard on his marriage, or working hard on setting up his new life with a focus on what is good for his kid, and in neither case does having an affair partner in the mix help those goals.
posted by Stacey at 6:19 AM on July 26, 2023 [19 favorites]
Best answer: I think there are many ways to have a good relationship and raise a kid well. This is not one of them. The affair is a red herring. The problem is the shitty relationship dynamic the kid is experiencing with the dad feeling guilty and mom emotionally checked out. My heart goes out to all of them but the one who will suffer the most is the child. My bold statement is that any parent who thinks they can have their own personal disaster without their child noticing or being hurt is lying to themselves. There are so many solutions that may be hurtful and hard in the present and near future but ultimately better in the long-term. Since therapy is no longer affordable, how about his joining an online community or in-person support group for men who had similar situations and were ultimately able to make things better. Or could the two parents start by sitting down to acknowledge their relationship is essentially over but financially they can't leave yet and taking it from there. The fear is legit, the money thing is so valid, and it's all a mess. It's possible that his affair partner will be his one great and enduring love -- honestly it sounds promising based on your description -- or it's possible that the reality of a co-parenting relationship with a poor single dad will ruin the magic. But again, that feels like less of an issue and actually something that will become resolved as other steps are taken.
I think it's very sweet and kind of you to be helping your friend this way. In the end, he needs to be the one to make the move and there's really nothing you can tell him or show him that will work. I recently had a friend in a situation with some differences and similarities, mainly the financial barriers to getting a divorce and moving apart. What freed her after so much indecision due to mixed messages from those around her was simply earning enough money to truly end things.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:40 AM on July 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think it's very sweet and kind of you to be helping your friend this way. In the end, he needs to be the one to make the move and there's really nothing you can tell him or show him that will work. I recently had a friend in a situation with some differences and similarities, mainly the financial barriers to getting a divorce and moving apart. What freed her after so much indecision due to mixed messages from those around her was simply earning enough money to truly end things.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:40 AM on July 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
I don't think it's appropriate for you to be advising him here, and I think the advice you've been giving him is bad.
"His partner deserves to find love"? How about his partner deserves to have the safety of a stable household? Do you know what usually happens to economically disadvantaged mothers who get divorced? They get a lot poorer, and the kids move down at least an economic level and often more than that.
Butt out. He and his partner have their own priorities and they'll figure them out. Plenty of people make it work with quiet long term affairs that leave their family intact (in some places it's the standard routine.) Not because it's great, but because it's the least bad solution when you have a kid. If that's where they wind up, it's not your business to disrupt.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:56 AM on July 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
"His partner deserves to find love"? How about his partner deserves to have the safety of a stable household? Do you know what usually happens to economically disadvantaged mothers who get divorced? They get a lot poorer, and the kids move down at least an economic level and often more than that.
Butt out. He and his partner have their own priorities and they'll figure them out. Plenty of people make it work with quiet long term affairs that leave their family intact (in some places it's the standard routine.) Not because it's great, but because it's the least bad solution when you have a kid. If that's where they wind up, it's not your business to disrupt.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:56 AM on July 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
The effects of divorce on children vary dramatically depending on their family's personal and social resources, as well as their parents' relationship. So there isn't clear research to help your friend make a decision about his own personal situation.
He's already decided he doesn't want to stay with his partner, and lying to her about fidelity is unethical, so he needs to let her know that he wants to end their romantic relationship. After that they can decide together how they want to handle co-parenting. His options at that point will be limited by what she is interested in doing, so he may have fewer decisions he needs to make. Some parents separate but continue to co-parent while living together, and if that's something they're both interested in it might make sense for a while.
posted by metasarah at 6:59 AM on July 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
He's already decided he doesn't want to stay with his partner, and lying to her about fidelity is unethical, so he needs to let her know that he wants to end their romantic relationship. After that they can decide together how they want to handle co-parenting. His options at that point will be limited by what she is interested in doing, so he may have fewer decisions he needs to make. Some parents separate but continue to co-parent while living together, and if that's something they're both interested in it might make sense for a while.
posted by metasarah at 6:59 AM on July 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, I think that talking to friends and helping them think through decisions is what friends are for. It's hard for a lot of people to think through big decisions on their own, and good professional therapy is inaccessible or unhelpful for a lot of people. As long as you draw the boundaries you need to keep yourself safe, and make it clear that your opinions are your own and that he should make his own decisions, you're good.
posted by metasarah at 7:07 AM on July 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 7:07 AM on July 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
A key here is to minimize acrimony. And the longer he lies about the affair, the bigger the betrayal when/if he's found out. The longer they stew in an unhappy relationship the more the resentments pilie up. All of that leads to more acrimony which the kid will feel and be hurt by.
If they can dissolve the relationship with minimal acrimony then they can explore more options like bird nest custody.
posted by brookeb at 7:59 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
If they can dissolve the relationship with minimal acrimony then they can explore more options like bird nest custody.
posted by brookeb at 7:59 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: In my experience having regular childcare for a young child in some format whether it's a babysitter or an activity or trading with other parents is a must if they're having a hard time coping with the demands on them. Then he can start to have real discussions with his partner about what's going on. He needs to tell his partner how he's feeling and how far gone things are. They can't have those talks with their child in the house.
Speaking from my own experience, having regular childcare and really communicating with my partner saved our relationship (regular childcare helped because it bought us uninterrupted time for ourselves and each other again, time we hadn't had for years). There was a brief but damaging period where we were really feeling stuck and resentful of each other and the answer was to put our toddler in daycare and have my partner go back to work. We had no outside help, no babysitters, and we didn't realize how much of a toll it was taking on us until it was almost too late. Once we had some breathing space we were able to reconnect and repair. Maybe things are too far gone, but if he cares about his child he should be willing to try for a few more months and stop seeing the other person in that time..
If it's too far gone, he will still need to figure out what the future will look like. His child will be ok if they live apart but he is using them to avoid making a decision and lying to his partner.
posted by lafemma at 8:03 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Speaking from my own experience, having regular childcare and really communicating with my partner saved our relationship (regular childcare helped because it bought us uninterrupted time for ourselves and each other again, time we hadn't had for years). There was a brief but damaging period where we were really feeling stuck and resentful of each other and the answer was to put our toddler in daycare and have my partner go back to work. We had no outside help, no babysitters, and we didn't realize how much of a toll it was taking on us until it was almost too late. Once we had some breathing space we were able to reconnect and repair. Maybe things are too far gone, but if he cares about his child he should be willing to try for a few more months and stop seeing the other person in that time..
If it's too far gone, he will still need to figure out what the future will look like. His child will be ok if they live apart but he is using them to avoid making a decision and lying to his partner.
posted by lafemma at 8:03 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: @fingersandtoes I have not given him any advice. I am trying to find him find books, research, and ideas/experiences which may be useful for him in his decision to leave or stay.
posted by lavenderflowers at 8:05 AM on July 26, 2023
posted by lavenderflowers at 8:05 AM on July 26, 2023
It's hard to see how he could have time for an affair but not time to try and repair or sort out the de facto marriage. I think his account involves a bit of self-deception. Not that you should say that to him necessarily (it might not provoke the best reaction) but if he reflects on that dynamic it might clarify to himself what he really wants to do.
posted by dis_integration at 8:05 AM on July 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 8:05 AM on July 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
ok, then consider Esther Perel's "Rethinking Infidelity", which runs contrary to the "the only correct outcome for adultery is divorce" narrative.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:16 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:16 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Something that stood out to me is the math - so your friend has been with this woman for a decade, has a 4-5 year old, and things only started to go downhill 3 or so years ago. So, when their child was a baby/toddler. This is so common it may as well be a cliche - I'm not trying to diminish the struggle of staying romantically attracted to your partner while being exhausted with the task of raising a baby, it's real! But many (most?) young parents experience this to an extent, but then push through the lull.
So, I think it would be worth it for your friend to ask himself, "How much of the relationship problems began because we were both exhausted?" and "Did perhaps my partner have postpartum depression?" and "Did most of the childcare fall on my partner that first year(or more)?" and "Did I have unrealistic expectations for how having a baby would impact (at least for a couple years) our sex life?" What made his partner to break up with him when she was roughly one year postpartum? Had he proven himself to not be a very reliable partner in terms of raising the baby? In short, he should ask his partner if he hasn't already, "What is the raw wound in our relationship that needs to be repaired, and how might we repair it?"
Besides Esther Perel's book already mentioned, he may find it helpful to listen to her podcast, which is recordings of couple's therapy sessions. Hearing how she gets other couples to start productively talking/listening to each other is not a replacement for therapy, but it's also better than nothing.
I think that talking to friends and helping them think through decisions is what friends are for. It's hard for a lot of people to think through big decisions on their own, and good professional therapy is inaccessible or unhelpful for a lot of people.
I'd like to affirm this - I think Metafilter on the whole is too quick to judge people being involved in their friend's personal life. Just because that's not how your friendships operate, doesn't mean that's not a key part of other people's friendships. Let's trust the OP to judge whether this is appropriate in the context of their friendship.
posted by coffeecat at 8:36 AM on July 26, 2023 [21 favorites]
So, I think it would be worth it for your friend to ask himself, "How much of the relationship problems began because we were both exhausted?" and "Did perhaps my partner have postpartum depression?" and "Did most of the childcare fall on my partner that first year(or more)?" and "Did I have unrealistic expectations for how having a baby would impact (at least for a couple years) our sex life?" What made his partner to break up with him when she was roughly one year postpartum? Had he proven himself to not be a very reliable partner in terms of raising the baby? In short, he should ask his partner if he hasn't already, "What is the raw wound in our relationship that needs to be repaired, and how might we repair it?"
Besides Esther Perel's book already mentioned, he may find it helpful to listen to her podcast, which is recordings of couple's therapy sessions. Hearing how she gets other couples to start productively talking/listening to each other is not a replacement for therapy, but it's also better than nothing.
I think that talking to friends and helping them think through decisions is what friends are for. It's hard for a lot of people to think through big decisions on their own, and good professional therapy is inaccessible or unhelpful for a lot of people.
I'd like to affirm this - I think Metafilter on the whole is too quick to judge people being involved in their friend's personal life. Just because that's not how your friendships operate, doesn't mean that's not a key part of other people's friendships. Let's trust the OP to judge whether this is appropriate in the context of their friendship.
posted by coffeecat at 8:36 AM on July 26, 2023 [21 favorites]
I don't recommend Reddit groups often, but if your friend wants some insight into how his cheating will affect his relationship, he should spend some time reading r/SurvivingInfidelity and r/AsOneAfterInfidelity.
Many of the posts reveal the brutality of this situation.
posted by yellowcandy at 8:41 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Many of the posts reveal the brutality of this situation.
posted by yellowcandy at 8:41 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
My father was a cheater. Decades later my two brothers also became cheaters and I became a lifelong distruster of men. Your friend's actions have long reaching effects. But more importantly so do yours when you try to interfere and influence his decision. Your preference for what actions he takes is obvious. If you are really his friend you will stay out of it.
posted by mulcahy at 8:50 AM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mulcahy at 8:50 AM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
the child is living a silent divorce.
This is a great way to phrase it.
Guy is already miserably unhappy with his SO. He knows that. He would absolutely leave if there was no kid. Does he plan on staying with her until the child is 18 and status quo stays like this for the next over-a-decade? Can he stand that? Because my parents stayed together but man, I knew even as a wee tot They Were Not Happy Together. It wasn't a great blessing for me for them to stay together in silent divorce.
Seriously, dude might as well bite the bullet and leave already, regardless of the affair or not.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:04 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is a great way to phrase it.
Guy is already miserably unhappy with his SO. He knows that. He would absolutely leave if there was no kid. Does he plan on staying with her until the child is 18 and status quo stays like this for the next over-a-decade? Can he stand that? Because my parents stayed together but man, I knew even as a wee tot They Were Not Happy Together. It wasn't a great blessing for me for them to stay together in silent divorce.
Seriously, dude might as well bite the bullet and leave already, regardless of the affair or not.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:04 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
We model relationships and what love looks like for our children in families of origin. Children "download" it and it becomes a template for their own future relationships. He should model what he hopes his child would imprint on for their own future. Does he want the child to internalize that you stay in an unhappy partnership without affection, or that it's okay to separate if both people are unhappy? Here is a short video on that point that was helpful to me once upon a time.
Having said that I want to draw your attention to the fact that your friend is not necessarily a reliable narrator of his feelings, either to you or to himself. It is not impossible that there is more going on than his story for you (and maybe himself) that if he didn't have a kid with his partner, he would have left, but that story is a "neat" one because it's a fundamentally impossible counterfactual. So it's easy to use it to express ambivalence by assigning the "leaving" desire to the "impossible" trajectory. In other words, maybe he feels really ambivalent about leaving, but rather than grappling with his ambivalence, he has constructed a narrative that he "can't" leave, and therefore he can express the side of him that wants to leave strongly/definitively because it's safe to do so, as it is "impossible" (in that same story). He might also be disowning or distancing himself from his desire to stay with her by reframing that desire as duty to the child. That would also preclude him from actually reflecting on and engaging with a desire to stay as an emotionally complex choice rooted in his own agency.
If that second scenario is the case, any resources you suggest that would support him in making a decision might not yield any result. Because it might be just that he is ambivalent about his partner and this relationship, and in some way comfortable in that ambivalence, but is narrating that ambivalence in such a way that it comes across like he just needs support making a choice. It is very possible that he does not want to make any definitive choice, and actually wants to continue enacting his conflicting feelings through this scenario, even though (or because) it feels confusing and guilt-inducing to him.
posted by virve at 9:21 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Having said that I want to draw your attention to the fact that your friend is not necessarily a reliable narrator of his feelings, either to you or to himself. It is not impossible that there is more going on than his story for you (and maybe himself) that if he didn't have a kid with his partner, he would have left, but that story is a "neat" one because it's a fundamentally impossible counterfactual. So it's easy to use it to express ambivalence by assigning the "leaving" desire to the "impossible" trajectory. In other words, maybe he feels really ambivalent about leaving, but rather than grappling with his ambivalence, he has constructed a narrative that he "can't" leave, and therefore he can express the side of him that wants to leave strongly/definitively because it's safe to do so, as it is "impossible" (in that same story). He might also be disowning or distancing himself from his desire to stay with her by reframing that desire as duty to the child. That would also preclude him from actually reflecting on and engaging with a desire to stay as an emotionally complex choice rooted in his own agency.
If that second scenario is the case, any resources you suggest that would support him in making a decision might not yield any result. Because it might be just that he is ambivalent about his partner and this relationship, and in some way comfortable in that ambivalence, but is narrating that ambivalence in such a way that it comes across like he just needs support making a choice. It is very possible that he does not want to make any definitive choice, and actually wants to continue enacting his conflicting feelings through this scenario, even though (or because) it feels confusing and guilt-inducing to him.
posted by virve at 9:21 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I know you feel you’re helping, but what you’re really doing is enabling some terrible behavior on his part. This is proposed as though this is some unique situation, when I’m reality he is being a shitty partner and shitty parent. Giving him studies/books/etc is just playing into his charade and self-deception that he doesn’t know what to do. Not making a decision is his decision right now, and there will be repercussions.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 11:59 AM on July 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by namemeansgazelle at 11:59 AM on July 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
I struggled with guilt over ending my marriage for a long time, especially because of my kids. I have a friend who is in the muck with their marriage too. And I have another friend who ended a marriage after/during an affair as well. We all benefited from ending that period of ambivalence, from ending our marriages, and I can see how destructive it is to my friend who is still in it. It's super unhealthy and honestly I think living so long in ambivalence wasn't healthy for me emotionally.
Your friend should also know that relationships with affair partners tend not to last long after the marriage ends, and more often than not, do not become the long-term next relationship. Lots of people end marriages for an affair partner but then that relationship blows up anyway. That's what my therapist has told me, though I don't have a written cite for it. That doesn't mean he should stay in the relationship with his kid's mom. It does mean that sometimes, when we are in an unhappy relationship, it's really hard to understand clearly what we are seeing with an affair partner. That newness, the lack of day-to-day stress, the lack of that unsexy familiarity--all of it is incredibly compelling. It's exciting and sexy and probably lots of other things he hasn't felt in his relationship for a long time. It can feel really good to have all that, even when it also feels bad.
But I will also add that sometimes folks have affairs at least in part to force the issue with their primary relationship. (Yet another friend of mine has told me that, in retrospect, he cheated on his partner because he wanted to get caught, and he was.) It may be that your friend has various unmet needs, and his fear of ending the relationship means he's trying to meet them in dishonest ways.
But it's also might be worth him acknowledging the real pain and hurt he experienced when his partner broke up with him twice. He perhaps felt abandoned and hurt.
Does he really want to work on the relationship with his partner? If so, he needs to end the affair and really focus on his family. He needs to put the energy he's been putting into surreptitious liaisons into planning time with his partner. He also likely needs to acknowledge the pain and hurt he felt with the earlier break ups. He also needs to plan some new activities with his partner. As Esther Perel writes about, your long-time partner, by definition, lacks the novelty of an affair partner, but you can create some of that feeling of energy and novelty with them by doing new things together.
If they're broke and feel like they can't afford any child care, then they are in the muck together. No wonder it's depressing and deeply unsexy.
But it's also okay for him to decide it's over and move forward. Trying to escalate with the affair partner might not work, but he can start to rebuild a life as a single parent, and he might find that the stress reduction from leaving an unhappy relationship helps him be a much better and more present parent. I think I'm a better parent to my kids now, for sure.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:00 PM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Your friend should also know that relationships with affair partners tend not to last long after the marriage ends, and more often than not, do not become the long-term next relationship. Lots of people end marriages for an affair partner but then that relationship blows up anyway. That's what my therapist has told me, though I don't have a written cite for it. That doesn't mean he should stay in the relationship with his kid's mom. It does mean that sometimes, when we are in an unhappy relationship, it's really hard to understand clearly what we are seeing with an affair partner. That newness, the lack of day-to-day stress, the lack of that unsexy familiarity--all of it is incredibly compelling. It's exciting and sexy and probably lots of other things he hasn't felt in his relationship for a long time. It can feel really good to have all that, even when it also feels bad.
But I will also add that sometimes folks have affairs at least in part to force the issue with their primary relationship. (Yet another friend of mine has told me that, in retrospect, he cheated on his partner because he wanted to get caught, and he was.) It may be that your friend has various unmet needs, and his fear of ending the relationship means he's trying to meet them in dishonest ways.
But it's also might be worth him acknowledging the real pain and hurt he experienced when his partner broke up with him twice. He perhaps felt abandoned and hurt.
Does he really want to work on the relationship with his partner? If so, he needs to end the affair and really focus on his family. He needs to put the energy he's been putting into surreptitious liaisons into planning time with his partner. He also likely needs to acknowledge the pain and hurt he felt with the earlier break ups. He also needs to plan some new activities with his partner. As Esther Perel writes about, your long-time partner, by definition, lacks the novelty of an affair partner, but you can create some of that feeling of energy and novelty with them by doing new things together.
If they're broke and feel like they can't afford any child care, then they are in the muck together. No wonder it's depressing and deeply unsexy.
But it's also okay for him to decide it's over and move forward. Trying to escalate with the affair partner might not work, but he can start to rebuild a life as a single parent, and he might find that the stress reduction from leaving an unhappy relationship helps him be a much better and more present parent. I think I'm a better parent to my kids now, for sure.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:00 PM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
The past is finished, the future is unknowable.
Like most ethical dilemmas, this one is actually very simple:
The right thing to do is to end the affair and to tell his partner what happened.
Of course he wants to know what will happen after that. Will they go to therapy together, or break up? Will they rebuild the relationship? Will they separate? Will they divorce? Will he and the affair partner eventually reconnect? Who will get custody? How will they afford two separate lives? What will happen to the child? Will his wife ever forgive him? Will his relationship with his kid inevitably be ruined? Will everyone's lives be destroyed forever? Or will they all somehow, after a period of difficulty, find their way to happiness?
Unfortunately, no one knows!
And no one can know, so speculating about it is a useless, if perversely comforting, distraction. He can't figure out how to act by gaming out an elaborate series of consequences and trying to decide which outcome causes the least harm; he can only act rightly, and let the consequences unfold as they will.
If it helps your friend, in my experience, once you know the right thing to do, it's always better to act and stay in limbo. No future is as bad as the one you conjure in your head; no consequences as dire as the one you're frozen in place trying to avoid.
And if it helps you, people pretty much always know the next right action to take; they're just not always ready, or willing, to take it. There's not much you can, or need to do here, other than tell him the truth, as you see it, and then let the rest of it go.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 12:22 PM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like most ethical dilemmas, this one is actually very simple:
The right thing to do is to end the affair and to tell his partner what happened.
Of course he wants to know what will happen after that. Will they go to therapy together, or break up? Will they rebuild the relationship? Will they separate? Will they divorce? Will he and the affair partner eventually reconnect? Who will get custody? How will they afford two separate lives? What will happen to the child? Will his wife ever forgive him? Will his relationship with his kid inevitably be ruined? Will everyone's lives be destroyed forever? Or will they all somehow, after a period of difficulty, find their way to happiness?
Unfortunately, no one knows!
And no one can know, so speculating about it is a useless, if perversely comforting, distraction. He can't figure out how to act by gaming out an elaborate series of consequences and trying to decide which outcome causes the least harm; he can only act rightly, and let the consequences unfold as they will.
If it helps your friend, in my experience, once you know the right thing to do, it's always better to act and stay in limbo. No future is as bad as the one you conjure in your head; no consequences as dire as the one you're frozen in place trying to avoid.
And if it helps you, people pretty much always know the next right action to take; they're just not always ready, or willing, to take it. There's not much you can, or need to do here, other than tell him the truth, as you see it, and then let the rest of it go.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 12:22 PM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have been the child in this situation, and I can tell you with utter conviction that it's much, much better to have two divorced parents who were happy, or at least happier than they had been together, than to have two married parents who were together but miserable. And I can also tell you that children may not have the exact words but they KNOW when one parent does not love or respect the other one. This child is learning some sad formative lessons about what relationships should look like. Staying together "for the sake of the kids" is seldom a good idea.
On edit: I should also say that I've been the wife in this scenario, and that experience made it even more clear to me that children do not benefit from living with miserable parents.
posted by pleasant_confusion at 1:29 PM on July 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
On edit: I should also say that I've been the wife in this scenario, and that experience made it even more clear to me that children do not benefit from living with miserable parents.
posted by pleasant_confusion at 1:29 PM on July 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
You asked for resources: here is an article from World Psychiatry (Official Journal of World Psychiatric Association) that outlines some of the known risks of divorce for children. (I don't know this org but goggle says it has been cited by 756 other articles and its arguments make sense to me.) The problem that some of the risk that are associated with children of divorced families are not really about the divorce but about other risk factors that might still be there whether or not the parents divorce such as marital discord, addiction or mental health issues or poverty rather than divorce per se. It also mentions some of the protective factors that can help buffer the impact of divorce.
This abstract from 1979 argues that the negative effects of divorce were greatly mitigated when positive relationships with both parents are maintained.
The book, Mom's House, Dad's House is a classic guide how to go about managing joint custody.
posted by metahawk at 5:13 PM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
This abstract from 1979 argues that the negative effects of divorce were greatly mitigated when positive relationships with both parents are maintained.
The book, Mom's House, Dad's House is a classic guide how to go about managing joint custody.
posted by metahawk at 5:13 PM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I know this might be a controversial take, but I think you have an obligation to tell this guy's partner that he's cheating on her. She's owed the truth and it doesn't sound like he's gonna tell her. You can make it an anonymous email from a burner account if you like. But IMO you have a moral duty here. You asked about what HE should do, but actually this is about what YOU need to do. If you were the one being cheated on, wouldn't you be angry as fuck with all the friends of the cheater who knew and yet kept the secret from you (thus enabling the cheating)? Don't be that person.
posted by MiraK at 12:03 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MiraK at 12:03 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
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He has a third choice, which is to end the affair and separate from his partner while he works on his own shit, and figures out how to be healthy alone, before he blows up his life and destroys the most important relationship he has right now, which should be with his child.
posted by phunniemee at 4:46 AM on July 26, 2023 [76 favorites]