How do you know when it's time to leave a long term relationship?
July 17, 2023 2:31 PM Subscribe
I won't go into the details of my 4-year relationship, it's all there in my previous posts. For those of you who have already told me to leave him, it might be best for you to stop reading. The decision to move back into his flat at the end of October is looming and I am having severe doubt, which I am finding difficult to deal with. I keep waking up in a panic and acting out with him.
How did you come to a final decision about when you should leave a long-term relationship? What was the final straw?
Or for those who pushed through and made it work, how did you get through periods where you must have desperately wished to end it?
My previous posts outline some of my experience of the 4-year relationship.
As of this year, my boyfriend turned 37 and would really like to get married and start a family. He's always felt ambivalent about me, and consequently, me about him.
But the fear and dread of being single in his forties and the tiredness of searching has meant he has accepted and even now desires to settle down with me and start a family. This has been said quite openly to me and though it made me feel uncomfortable, I kind of agreed.
I think I have been trying to prolong this decision with him as well, we have been in no man's land for so long. We barely hang out with anyone else; he doesn't know my family; I don't know his family. We've been in this bubble together ever since Covid.
I think I've just been trying to survive my life and clinging to him without any thought of the future. I think I have been using him to escape my own reality often. I also think if I wasn't broke, I would have broken up with him a long time ago. Even though he's never provided for me financially, I've always deferred my power to him, terrified of being alone and broke.
We both agreed recently that neither of us really wants to commit as we are both terrified, but he follows it up with the fact that we are both getting older, and we just have to do it. That the same problems might crop up with other people and it might be our last chance.
Since deciding that this is what he would like he is being a lot more genuinely kinder to me and talking about our future. How I should move in sooner so we can save for childcare, he's added me to his family subscriptions, talking about how I can grow plants on his balcony and how it will be nice for me to have ownership of my own projects at his place.
Particularly in the past few days, after a few rows about income and my dependency on him, he has softened immensely towards me and is being sweet and kind. Perhaps he can sense my feelings of wanting to end things at some point? It's not love bombing. Something has shifted in him. He's "accepted me", finally and perhaps put his anxieties to bed. It makes me feel like perhaps there is a future here, perhaps the past can be healed from.
However, he's also talked about how he's the higher earner, I should be more responsible for managing the household. Though I understand the practicalities, this feels gendered, and it makes me feel a bit demeaned. This was however, the set up I agreed to last time I lived here. But do I want a marriage like this?
All of this is making me feel deeply uncomfortable, as I have always felt he hasn't treated me too well (see previous posts). I have a claustrophic feeling that I'll be trapped in a relationship, in a marriage.
I have started developing an overwhelming feeling that I don't want to move back in with him. But he is being so nice to me, I feel sick with shame and guilt for having these feelings. Then I think about the past 4 years and all the times he has been kind and sweet and supportive and I think, maybe it will work?
I've spoken to a married male friend who basically said marriage is rough and he thinks we have a good a chance as anyone at making it work despite our issues. He also sided with my partner about the issue of needing financial stability and organized roles in order to manage a family.
I opened up to group therapy today and they said I should negotiate the conditions of moving back in and know my worth. Unlike on here, they didn't tell me to break up with him.
I don't know what to do and I deeply regret not breaking up with him during the plenty of times I had the opportunity to do so. We had an argument recently where he said he felt like my parent and how he "didn't know how he has ended up in this situation" i.e. dating someone like me. I got angry and fought back but all was forgiven the next day. I should have asked for a break or something.
I feel like I'm waiting for the final straw, but I keep forgiving him and letting him say things to me without repercussions as it feels too hard to end such a long relationship. I feel guilt that it might destroy him and his chances of finding someone else and that it might be the wrong decision and that all relationships are tough and I should try to work with the one I have.
I would really appreciate hearing your stories about whether or not you decided to end long term relationships and how you navigated this path? When is the final straw and when does one give up hope?
My previous posts outline some of my experience of the 4-year relationship.
As of this year, my boyfriend turned 37 and would really like to get married and start a family. He's always felt ambivalent about me, and consequently, me about him.
But the fear and dread of being single in his forties and the tiredness of searching has meant he has accepted and even now desires to settle down with me and start a family. This has been said quite openly to me and though it made me feel uncomfortable, I kind of agreed.
I think I have been trying to prolong this decision with him as well, we have been in no man's land for so long. We barely hang out with anyone else; he doesn't know my family; I don't know his family. We've been in this bubble together ever since Covid.
I think I've just been trying to survive my life and clinging to him without any thought of the future. I think I have been using him to escape my own reality often. I also think if I wasn't broke, I would have broken up with him a long time ago. Even though he's never provided for me financially, I've always deferred my power to him, terrified of being alone and broke.
We both agreed recently that neither of us really wants to commit as we are both terrified, but he follows it up with the fact that we are both getting older, and we just have to do it. That the same problems might crop up with other people and it might be our last chance.
Since deciding that this is what he would like he is being a lot more genuinely kinder to me and talking about our future. How I should move in sooner so we can save for childcare, he's added me to his family subscriptions, talking about how I can grow plants on his balcony and how it will be nice for me to have ownership of my own projects at his place.
Particularly in the past few days, after a few rows about income and my dependency on him, he has softened immensely towards me and is being sweet and kind. Perhaps he can sense my feelings of wanting to end things at some point? It's not love bombing. Something has shifted in him. He's "accepted me", finally and perhaps put his anxieties to bed. It makes me feel like perhaps there is a future here, perhaps the past can be healed from.
However, he's also talked about how he's the higher earner, I should be more responsible for managing the household. Though I understand the practicalities, this feels gendered, and it makes me feel a bit demeaned. This was however, the set up I agreed to last time I lived here. But do I want a marriage like this?
All of this is making me feel deeply uncomfortable, as I have always felt he hasn't treated me too well (see previous posts). I have a claustrophic feeling that I'll be trapped in a relationship, in a marriage.
I have started developing an overwhelming feeling that I don't want to move back in with him. But he is being so nice to me, I feel sick with shame and guilt for having these feelings. Then I think about the past 4 years and all the times he has been kind and sweet and supportive and I think, maybe it will work?
I've spoken to a married male friend who basically said marriage is rough and he thinks we have a good a chance as anyone at making it work despite our issues. He also sided with my partner about the issue of needing financial stability and organized roles in order to manage a family.
I opened up to group therapy today and they said I should negotiate the conditions of moving back in and know my worth. Unlike on here, they didn't tell me to break up with him.
I don't know what to do and I deeply regret not breaking up with him during the plenty of times I had the opportunity to do so. We had an argument recently where he said he felt like my parent and how he "didn't know how he has ended up in this situation" i.e. dating someone like me. I got angry and fought back but all was forgiven the next day. I should have asked for a break or something.
I feel like I'm waiting for the final straw, but I keep forgiving him and letting him say things to me without repercussions as it feels too hard to end such a long relationship. I feel guilt that it might destroy him and his chances of finding someone else and that it might be the wrong decision and that all relationships are tough and I should try to work with the one I have.
I would really appreciate hearing your stories about whether or not you decided to end long term relationships and how you navigated this path? When is the final straw and when does one give up hope?
Please do not commit to someone who is not joyfully, deeply, and indelibly in love with you.
posted by mochapickle at 2:39 PM on July 17, 2023 [70 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 2:39 PM on July 17, 2023 [70 favorites]
I am very sorry that you feel that this is the best you deserve. Please, please read this very wise advice from Dear Sugar:
Go, even though you’re afraid of being alone.
Go, even though you’re sure no one will ever love you as well as he does.
Go, even though there is nowhere to go.
Go, even though you don’t know exactly why you can’t stay.
Go, because you want to.
Because wanting to leave is enough.
Please read her full response here.
posted by moiraine at 2:46 PM on July 17, 2023 [83 favorites]
Go, even though you’re afraid of being alone.
Go, even though you’re sure no one will ever love you as well as he does.
Go, even though there is nowhere to go.
Go, even though you don’t know exactly why you can’t stay.
Go, because you want to.
Because wanting to leave is enough.
Please read her full response here.
posted by moiraine at 2:46 PM on July 17, 2023 [83 favorites]
Everything that is bad now will be at least an order of magnitude worse if you marry and have children.
posted by onebyone at 2:46 PM on July 17, 2023 [95 favorites]
posted by onebyone at 2:46 PM on July 17, 2023 [95 favorites]
If you regret not taking previous opportunities to break up, then the next-best time to do it is now. It's not going to be easier if you're living together, have combined finances and Netflix subscriptions, and are planning to have/having babies.
posted by Well I never at 2:46 PM on July 17, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by Well I never at 2:46 PM on July 17, 2023 [23 favorites]
I have started developing an overwhelming feeling that I don't want to move back in with him.
This is really all you need to know.
I actually think you guys would all be telling him to break up with me, if he posted something like this on here.
But…that’s not how break ups work, that one person is assigned the points and gets to break up. Like, it doesn’t matter — it doesn’t matter — whether you were needing support in the past or he was. You get to break up when you realize it’s not a good relationship for you. And you separated in order to find out, right? And having separated, your feelings are telling you what you need to know - it’s better not living with him. So don’t.
Marriage can be really hard…don’t enter into it with someone who is already this unenthusiastic about the person you are. Don’t tie your life and your heart to someone who’s just tired of…looking? I mean, his point of view is incomprehensibly passive…you’ve stuck around so he’s stuck? It’s weird. You don’t want kids with this guy.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:58 PM on July 17, 2023 [38 favorites]
This is really all you need to know.
I actually think you guys would all be telling him to break up with me, if he posted something like this on here.
But…that’s not how break ups work, that one person is assigned the points and gets to break up. Like, it doesn’t matter — it doesn’t matter — whether you were needing support in the past or he was. You get to break up when you realize it’s not a good relationship for you. And you separated in order to find out, right? And having separated, your feelings are telling you what you need to know - it’s better not living with him. So don’t.
Marriage can be really hard…don’t enter into it with someone who is already this unenthusiastic about the person you are. Don’t tie your life and your heart to someone who’s just tired of…looking? I mean, his point of view is incomprehensibly passive…you’ve stuck around so he’s stuck? It’s weird. You don’t want kids with this guy.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:58 PM on July 17, 2023 [38 favorites]
You do not want a relationship where you're being asked to do more of the housework because he's the higher earner. If you decide to work outside the home less and put that extra time into the housework, great, but if you're both working a full-time job and you need to use your leisure time to keep the house together? Yeah, not a good thing.
And imagine how much worse it's gonna be with kids.
You do not want a relationship where he only gets nicer when you've pushed it to the breaking point. You want a relationship in which you're partners in trying to make each other's lives better, not finding the brink from which one or the other recoils back from.
There are always opportunities to create new relationships. There will always be opportunities to create new relationships. This is not your or his "last chance". You may not have kids, but that's okay, lots of us haven't had kids, it's not like there's any shortage of kids out there in the world who are incredibly grateful for adults who aren't biologically related to them in their lives.
If you are going to negotiate the conditions of moving back in and know your worth, you need to really know your own worth, and you're going to need to see him demonstrate that his relationship with you has changed so that you don't have to be constantly holding boundaries or pushing him.
And one of the best ways to work on holding those boundaries is... well... holding those boundaries.
posted by straw at 2:59 PM on July 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
And imagine how much worse it's gonna be with kids.
You do not want a relationship where he only gets nicer when you've pushed it to the breaking point. You want a relationship in which you're partners in trying to make each other's lives better, not finding the brink from which one or the other recoils back from.
There are always opportunities to create new relationships. There will always be opportunities to create new relationships. This is not your or his "last chance". You may not have kids, but that's okay, lots of us haven't had kids, it's not like there's any shortage of kids out there in the world who are incredibly grateful for adults who aren't biologically related to them in their lives.
If you are going to negotiate the conditions of moving back in and know your worth, you need to really know your own worth, and you're going to need to see him demonstrate that his relationship with you has changed so that you don't have to be constantly holding boundaries or pushing him.
And one of the best ways to work on holding those boundaries is... well... holding those boundaries.
posted by straw at 2:59 PM on July 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
You do this, you marry this wiener, and you will be on the Green many many many times asking us the same questions about a person who frankly, aside from moments of "sweetness," is viewing you as a last chance to be married and have kids. There is nothing romantic here. He wants someone to take care of a household, not an equal partner sharing a household.
Please, for the sake of a life you only get to live ONCE, DTFMA.
posted by Kitteh at 3:01 PM on July 17, 2023 [54 favorites]
Please, for the sake of a life you only get to live ONCE, DTFMA.
posted by Kitteh at 3:01 PM on July 17, 2023 [54 favorites]
How did you come to a final decision about when you should leave a long-term relationship? What was the final straw?
There is no final straw. There was just the sort of slow realization that I didn't look forward to anything about the relationship and that the things I most looked forward to didn't involve him, and wouldn't, because he'd hate all of them. Just a general creeping sense that our relationship made my life harder. (And probably his life too, but definitely mine!)
I don't get the sense that you have anything to look forward to at all, with or without him. Frankly I'd guess the minute that you DO have anything of your own to enjoy, he'll be yesterday's dirt. But it may be that he'll make damn sure you never have that, what with forever holding his earnings over your head and making you his permanent housekeeper.
Seems like a super bummer way to waste an entire life but hey, it's your life.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:04 PM on July 17, 2023 [26 favorites]
There is no final straw. There was just the sort of slow realization that I didn't look forward to anything about the relationship and that the things I most looked forward to didn't involve him, and wouldn't, because he'd hate all of them. Just a general creeping sense that our relationship made my life harder. (And probably his life too, but definitely mine!)
I don't get the sense that you have anything to look forward to at all, with or without him. Frankly I'd guess the minute that you DO have anything of your own to enjoy, he'll be yesterday's dirt. But it may be that he'll make damn sure you never have that, what with forever holding his earnings over your head and making you his permanent housekeeper.
Seems like a super bummer way to waste an entire life but hey, it's your life.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:04 PM on July 17, 2023 [26 favorites]
But the fear and dread of being single in his forties and the tiredness of searching has meant he has accepted and even now desires to settle down with me and start a family.
You deserve so much more than this. You deserve someone who looks at you and thinks "Wow. I am so lucky to be Sunflower88's person." And you should think the same about your person. Maybe after a couple years, if you have kids around, he doesn't think it every day. There should be a level of gratitude and awe in the bedrock of your relationship that each you touch most days.
Let's say you go back and you have a family together. Imagine year after year, looking at your person and thinking: I wore him down. He wanted kids. He was tired. He was scared of the future. He settled for me. Now imagine being up at 3am with a sick child, so tired that your eyes are sandpaper and your hands are shaking, and one of you needs to get down on the floor to clean up poop or puke. How is that going to work?
I'm going to yell so that maybe you will hear: YOU DESERVE MORE THAN THIS RELATIONSHIP.
posted by OrangeDisk at 3:04 PM on July 17, 2023 [27 favorites]
You deserve so much more than this. You deserve someone who looks at you and thinks "Wow. I am so lucky to be Sunflower88's person." And you should think the same about your person. Maybe after a couple years, if you have kids around, he doesn't think it every day. There should be a level of gratitude and awe in the bedrock of your relationship that each you touch most days.
Let's say you go back and you have a family together. Imagine year after year, looking at your person and thinking: I wore him down. He wanted kids. He was tired. He was scared of the future. He settled for me. Now imagine being up at 3am with a sick child, so tired that your eyes are sandpaper and your hands are shaking, and one of you needs to get down on the floor to clean up poop or puke. How is that going to work?
I'm going to yell so that maybe you will hear: YOU DESERVE MORE THAN THIS RELATIONSHIP.
posted by OrangeDisk at 3:04 PM on July 17, 2023 [27 favorites]
I actually think you guys would all be telling him to break up with me, if he posted something like this on here.
Lol yes, actually, he should break up with you, and you should break up with him, because you two are a fucking nightmare together.
EDIT: I'm sorry, that phrasing was way meaner than I intended. The two of you together are creating a nightmare for yourselves and each other and for the love of god one of y'all oughta put a stop to it already.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:06 PM on July 17, 2023 [40 favorites]
Lol yes, actually, he should break up with you, and you should break up with him, because you two are a fucking nightmare together.
EDIT: I'm sorry, that phrasing was way meaner than I intended. The two of you together are creating a nightmare for yourselves and each other and for the love of god one of y'all oughta put a stop to it already.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:06 PM on July 17, 2023 [40 favorites]
I had a really good conversation with a guy I dated a long time ago, where he described a previous relationship he was in as feeling "inevitable." I realized that I had also felt that way in a previous relationship or two, where I had experienced a, b and c with that person and so it seemed inevitable that we would stay together for x, y, and z, too. It was one of those conversations that completely reshaped how I approached every relationship from that day forward.
I don't ever want to be in a relationship that feels inevitable, ever again. I want to wake up every day and enthusiastically choose the person I'm with, and I deserve to get the same in return.
I also enthusiastically choose my independence, my financial stability, my dogs, and my friends, and anything or anyone that threatens those isn't welcome in my life.
posted by phunniemee at 3:11 PM on July 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
I don't ever want to be in a relationship that feels inevitable, ever again. I want to wake up every day and enthusiastically choose the person I'm with, and I deserve to get the same in return.
I also enthusiastically choose my independence, my financial stability, my dogs, and my friends, and anything or anyone that threatens those isn't welcome in my life.
posted by phunniemee at 3:11 PM on July 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
Response by poster: I feel very scared. I do love him and this might destroy him. I have 3 months before the move in date
posted by Sunflower88 at 3:14 PM on July 17, 2023
posted by Sunflower88 at 3:14 PM on July 17, 2023
He destroyed it himself.
posted by danceswithlight at 3:21 PM on July 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by danceswithlight at 3:21 PM on July 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
If you leave him now, he will probably find someone else that he feels more strongly about. Or he'll find happiness in a different lifestyle. If you move in with him in 3 months you are condemning him to a shitty relationship.
Do him a favour, and leave.
Note also that you can do better than him and you can do better than this shitty relationship.
posted by plonkee at 3:22 PM on July 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Do him a favour, and leave.
Note also that you can do better than him and you can do better than this shitty relationship.
posted by plonkee at 3:22 PM on July 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Hi Sunflower!
It looks like you are having a rough time and I just wanted to send you virtual hugs.
It's hard to make these decisions, however easy they look from the outside.
I sense so much sadness and resignation in your question. Like you are telling yourself that this right here is the most you can hope for and the most he can hope for. That even though you don't feel excited about a future together, breaking up and being single would be even worse. That even though what you feel towards each other is mostly resigned compassion, you both want to suck it up to have kids.
I was in a similar situation right down to fiance being 37 and a married male friend telling me to suck it up cause marriage was hard work more than anything else. I felt so much guilt and resignation.
I ultimately broke it off and, well, am now looking back with awe at what I almost commited to. I was looking for good enough reasons to break up instead of thinking what my reasons were for considering marriage to this man in the first place. I realized that the thing holding us together was guilt and uncertainty and fear. After breaking it off I felt so much happier and lighter. And the whole situation taught me so much. I never once looked back.
So if had to tell my younger self something, I'd say that sadness and guilt and obligation are not a good foundation for a marriage.
All the best and please be kind to yourself.
posted by M. at 3:23 PM on July 17, 2023 [26 favorites]
It looks like you are having a rough time and I just wanted to send you virtual hugs.
It's hard to make these decisions, however easy they look from the outside.
I sense so much sadness and resignation in your question. Like you are telling yourself that this right here is the most you can hope for and the most he can hope for. That even though you don't feel excited about a future together, breaking up and being single would be even worse. That even though what you feel towards each other is mostly resigned compassion, you both want to suck it up to have kids.
I was in a similar situation right down to fiance being 37 and a married male friend telling me to suck it up cause marriage was hard work more than anything else. I felt so much guilt and resignation.
I ultimately broke it off and, well, am now looking back with awe at what I almost commited to. I was looking for good enough reasons to break up instead of thinking what my reasons were for considering marriage to this man in the first place. I realized that the thing holding us together was guilt and uncertainty and fear. After breaking it off I felt so much happier and lighter. And the whole situation taught me so much. I never once looked back.
So if had to tell my younger self something, I'd say that sadness and guilt and obligation are not a good foundation for a marriage.
All the best and please be kind to yourself.
posted by M. at 3:23 PM on July 17, 2023 [26 favorites]
Honestly during times in my life where I couldn’t muster the resolve or bravery to break up for the “right reasons,” I left because I started thinking about how much more fun my life would be with freedom from the wrong person. Focus on the things you want to do that you feel like you can’t do now, twisting into a pretzel for this guy.
Alternatively, read Attached. You guys sound like a classic anxious / avoidant combo and that type of relationship is incredibly hard to break out of.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:30 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Alternatively, read Attached. You guys sound like a classic anxious / avoidant combo and that type of relationship is incredibly hard to break out of.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:30 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Reading your post made me deeply, deeply sad. I can't imagine living it.
You deserve so much more than what this man is offering. You know this. You know this. You know this.
Say it as many times as you need until you believe it but do NOT move in with this man.
No.
posted by simonelikenina at 3:31 PM on July 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
You deserve so much more than what this man is offering. You know this. You know this. You know this.
Say it as many times as you need until you believe it but do NOT move in with this man.
No.
posted by simonelikenina at 3:31 PM on July 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'll try to break down some of the blazing red flags in your post, in case it helps:
But the fear and dread of being single in his forties and the tiredness of searching has meant he has accepted and even now desires to settle down with me and start a family. This has been said quite openly to me and though it made me feel uncomfortable, I kind of agreed.
This is just really sad. For one, nobody should decide to commit to someone out of fear - fear of being lonely is not a sustainable motivator to stay in a relationship with someone. You really need to genuinely want to be with the person - no wonder you felt uncomfortable hearing this!
he follows it up with the fact that we are both getting older, and we just have to do it. That the same problems might crop up with other people and it might be our last chance.
He's using a common sense statement "problems might crop up with other people" to manipulate you into accepting a relationship that makes you deeply unhappy. Yes, no relationship is perfect, but you can definitely do much, much, better than this. Wouldn't being single be better than how miserable this guy makes you? (Also, plenty of people find love in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, etc. you are not too old, that's silly)
I don't know what to do and I deeply regret not breaking up with him during the plenty of times I had the opportunity to do so.
Don't regret not breaking up with him today - you still have the opportunity to do so!
posted by coffeecat at 3:33 PM on July 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
But the fear and dread of being single in his forties and the tiredness of searching has meant he has accepted and even now desires to settle down with me and start a family. This has been said quite openly to me and though it made me feel uncomfortable, I kind of agreed.
This is just really sad. For one, nobody should decide to commit to someone out of fear - fear of being lonely is not a sustainable motivator to stay in a relationship with someone. You really need to genuinely want to be with the person - no wonder you felt uncomfortable hearing this!
he follows it up with the fact that we are both getting older, and we just have to do it. That the same problems might crop up with other people and it might be our last chance.
He's using a common sense statement "problems might crop up with other people" to manipulate you into accepting a relationship that makes you deeply unhappy. Yes, no relationship is perfect, but you can definitely do much, much, better than this. Wouldn't being single be better than how miserable this guy makes you? (Also, plenty of people find love in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, etc. you are not too old, that's silly)
I don't know what to do and I deeply regret not breaking up with him during the plenty of times I had the opportunity to do so.
Don't regret not breaking up with him today - you still have the opportunity to do so!
posted by coffeecat at 3:33 PM on July 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
There’s no magic way to tell when it’s time to leave a relationship, and I often think that people asking these questions here are way overthinking and nitpicking their relationships. Your question, however, sounds pretty clearly like you’ve made up your mind and you’re looking for permission to leave. I think you know already what you have to do!
posted by vanitas at 3:34 PM on July 17, 2023
posted by vanitas at 3:34 PM on July 17, 2023
If you think you feel trapped now, it's nothing compared to how you'll feel once you have a kid or two with him.
Everything in you seems to be screaming that you should leave. Listen to that voice.
posted by belladonna at 3:38 PM on July 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
Everything in you seems to be screaming that you should leave. Listen to that voice.
posted by belladonna at 3:38 PM on July 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
On reading your follow-up... I think it would be devastating to be broken up with someone he was excited to be with but from your description above he doesn't seem excited?
I'd say it's more soul-crushing to know someone is with you for lack of other options. In the long term, so much more destructive.
And breaking up before moving in together is soo much easier too.
I'd at the very very least put a brake on the plans to move in.
posted by M. at 3:39 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'd say it's more soul-crushing to know someone is with you for lack of other options. In the long term, so much more destructive.
And breaking up before moving in together is soo much easier too.
I'd at the very very least put a brake on the plans to move in.
posted by M. at 3:39 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry, I skipped most of your post because honestly.... BEING ALONE IS OK. BEING ALONE IS FINE. BEING ALONE IS BETTER THAN BEING WITH A MISERABLE ASSHOLE LIKE YOUR BOYFRIEND.
posted by tristeza at 3:39 PM on July 17, 2023 [44 favorites]
posted by tristeza at 3:39 PM on July 17, 2023 [44 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that if your best friend came to you with these kind of descriptions and said "how do I know when it's time to leave?" you'd say -- you just told me, in your own words, that it is time and you know exactly why.
posted by Dashy at 3:46 PM on July 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dashy at 3:46 PM on July 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh, and a GUARANTEE you 1 million American dollars that this will not "destroy" him. In fact, I bet an additional $1 mil US that he will have another woman in his home/bed within 6 months.
We KNOW these guys. Please. Don't waste your one wild, beautiful life with this dickweed.
posted by tristeza at 3:49 PM on July 17, 2023 [33 favorites]
We KNOW these guys. Please. Don't waste your one wild, beautiful life with this dickweed.
posted by tristeza at 3:49 PM on July 17, 2023 [33 favorites]
I feel guilt that it might destroy him and his chances of finding someone else
He’s 37. He has many, many more years to find and start a family with someone before that becomes a physical impossibility for him. His emotional clock might be ticking but don’t guilt yourself into thinking that you’re his last chance if he wants to have kids. You’re really, really not.
posted by delight at 3:50 PM on July 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
He’s 37. He has many, many more years to find and start a family with someone before that becomes a physical impossibility for him. His emotional clock might be ticking but don’t guilt yourself into thinking that you’re his last chance if he wants to have kids. You’re really, really not.
posted by delight at 3:50 PM on July 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't understand why the inkling that he'd be well advised to break up with you, is somehow working against you breaking up with him.
He WOULD be well advised to break up with you, because he isn't in love with you. He doesn't cherish or even respect you that much. He's made that clear.
And you ARE well advised to break up with him, for the same reason. You don't even enjoy him. You feel bad when you're together.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:51 PM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
He WOULD be well advised to break up with you, because he isn't in love with you. He doesn't cherish or even respect you that much. He's made that clear.
And you ARE well advised to break up with him, for the same reason. You don't even enjoy him. You feel bad when you're together.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:51 PM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
I left a four year relationship once. We had been long distance for a year and we were looking at five more years of the same if he didn’t move to me. The time crunch forced me to look in the face the fact that I wasn’t sure I wanted him to. We’d gotten together on the strength of some mild chemistry when we were college underclassmen, and he was kind and smart and a lot of good things, but he wasn’t my person and I knew it. And I started finding myself crushing hard on other people, and I realized — this is not good, it would not be a good thing to uproot this man from a steady job for me.
I never regretted it. He was sad for a time but he moved on and we’re both married to other people. It did not wreck either of our lives.
It can be done.
posted by eirias at 3:52 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I never regretted it. He was sad for a time but he moved on and we’re both married to other people. It did not wreck either of our lives.
It can be done.
posted by eirias at 3:52 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
He's always felt ambivalent about me, and consequently, me about him.
Uhh, this is when you know. You already know.
Yep, you're both getting older -- that's the opposite of a reason to double down on this one. Better get a move on and get the fuck out and go have a happier life apart.
posted by so fucking future at 3:57 PM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Uhh, this is when you know. You already know.
Yep, you're both getting older -- that's the opposite of a reason to double down on this one. Better get a move on and get the fuck out and go have a happier life apart.
posted by so fucking future at 3:57 PM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
I do love him and this might destroy him.
Are you dependent on him/being parented by him, or will it destroy him if you leave? Can't be both. If he's such a strong brave wage-earner holding his maturity over your head, sounds like he'll be just fine.
he has softened immensely towards me and is being sweet and kind. Perhaps he can sense my feelings of wanting to end things at some point? It's not love bombing.
You just offered a textbook description of love bombing.
posted by babelfish at 4:00 PM on July 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
Are you dependent on him/being parented by him, or will it destroy him if you leave? Can't be both. If he's such a strong brave wage-earner holding his maturity over your head, sounds like he'll be just fine.
he has softened immensely towards me and is being sweet and kind. Perhaps he can sense my feelings of wanting to end things at some point? It's not love bombing.
You just offered a textbook description of love bombing.
posted by babelfish at 4:00 PM on July 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
Hey, I just came in to say that I remember your posts about this guy but I also remember your posts about the work you've been trying to do on your relationship with yourself.
I think that you're ready to leave this relationship because the work that you're doing is starting to actually work.
You are sounding so much more aware of how much you don't want this and how this is not a good situation for you.
You sound like a person who knows that they don't deserve this shit and you're done with it. Listen to yourself. You are done.
Your latest comment is confirming my feelings. When you're really scared, you talk about how it will destroy him. Not you. You've figured out that you aren't the problem. You know deep down that you will be better off when you leave.
I think you already have realized that you are not going to do this for much longer because you are starting to see that when you leave him you will be allowed so much more room to learn to love yourself even better.
So keep on being there for yourself and being honest with yourself and you will find the right time to say what you need to say to move on from this.
You are growing. I can see it. And he won't stop you so don't be scared just take a deep breath and do what needs to be done.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 4:01 PM on July 17, 2023 [64 favorites]
I think that you're ready to leave this relationship because the work that you're doing is starting to actually work.
You are sounding so much more aware of how much you don't want this and how this is not a good situation for you.
You sound like a person who knows that they don't deserve this shit and you're done with it. Listen to yourself. You are done.
Your latest comment is confirming my feelings. When you're really scared, you talk about how it will destroy him. Not you. You've figured out that you aren't the problem. You know deep down that you will be better off when you leave.
I think you already have realized that you are not going to do this for much longer because you are starting to see that when you leave him you will be allowed so much more room to learn to love yourself even better.
So keep on being there for yourself and being honest with yourself and you will find the right time to say what you need to say to move on from this.
You are growing. I can see it. And he won't stop you so don't be scared just take a deep breath and do what needs to be done.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 4:01 PM on July 17, 2023 [64 favorites]
Relationships are funny, because on one hand, there is literally NO point past which you are "locked in" and you cannot get out of it anymore. You can celebrate your 75th wedding anniversary and still break up the next day. On the flip side, the societal and legal and even blood entanglements get deeper and deeper the longer you stay together, so that also makes it harder to leave as more time passes.
So you can view your relationship from either of those perspectives. In the context of this decision point to move in together, you're thinking it's "too late" to decide to delay the move, or cancel it all together, or break up. But that's not really true, you can wake up the day after you've moved everything in, and decide it was totally wrong, and break up and move out! (Yes it'll be harder but you can do it.) So how does that reframing feel? Does this "extra" time or even "unlimited" time and opportunities to move out or break up give you relief? If you were given all the time in the world and infinite opportunities to exit this relationship, does it feel like freedom or the opposite?
Lastly, it was not lost on me that the person who said that you should be the default household manager because you are the lower earner... that person goes by the "he" pronoun :)
posted by tinydancer at 4:03 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
So you can view your relationship from either of those perspectives. In the context of this decision point to move in together, you're thinking it's "too late" to decide to delay the move, or cancel it all together, or break up. But that's not really true, you can wake up the day after you've moved everything in, and decide it was totally wrong, and break up and move out! (Yes it'll be harder but you can do it.) So how does that reframing feel? Does this "extra" time or even "unlimited" time and opportunities to move out or break up give you relief? If you were given all the time in the world and infinite opportunities to exit this relationship, does it feel like freedom or the opposite?
Lastly, it was not lost on me that the person who said that you should be the default household manager because you are the lower earner... that person goes by the "he" pronoun :)
posted by tinydancer at 4:03 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
NO AMOUNT OF GROWING PLANTS ON A BALCONY IS WORTH THE WAY HE FEELS ABOUT YOU.
After we had two kids together, my ex told me he settled for me and was never really in love with me. I just made sense 'on paper' because he was getting to the age where he had to either get married or constantly deal with people thinking he was gay, so he decided to ask me to marry him. I mean, maybe it'll be better for you because you know it already? But it's really a lousy way to feel. Your heart will break when you realize any kids you have will carry your marriage as the template for what love is. Do you really want their hearts and loves contorted by that?
Also, prior to telling me, his compromise ate at him and definitely influenced how he treated me for a number of years. I didn't know he never loved me, but it was absolutely clear to me that he was always angry at me or seemed to resent me for some reason I could never get out from under. Our time dating had been good: fun, mature, easy going. But once we were married, his choice pervaded things.
--> He also sided with my partner about the issue of needing financial stability and organized roles in order to manage a family.
Every couple handles this division of labor a little differently than every other couple. But what ALL healthy couples do is love + respect each other enough to have a conversation about it. Power-imbalanced and disrespectful couples do it the way your boyfriend did it, by telling you what you should do.
posted by KneeHiSocks at 4:11 PM on July 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
After we had two kids together, my ex told me he settled for me and was never really in love with me. I just made sense 'on paper' because he was getting to the age where he had to either get married or constantly deal with people thinking he was gay, so he decided to ask me to marry him. I mean, maybe it'll be better for you because you know it already? But it's really a lousy way to feel. Your heart will break when you realize any kids you have will carry your marriage as the template for what love is. Do you really want their hearts and loves contorted by that?
Also, prior to telling me, his compromise ate at him and definitely influenced how he treated me for a number of years. I didn't know he never loved me, but it was absolutely clear to me that he was always angry at me or seemed to resent me for some reason I could never get out from under. Our time dating had been good: fun, mature, easy going. But once we were married, his choice pervaded things.
--> He also sided with my partner about the issue of needing financial stability and organized roles in order to manage a family.
Every couple handles this division of labor a little differently than every other couple. But what ALL healthy couples do is love + respect each other enough to have a conversation about it. Power-imbalanced and disrespectful couples do it the way your boyfriend did it, by telling you what you should do.
posted by KneeHiSocks at 4:11 PM on July 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
When is the final straw and when does one give up hope?
I wasn't happy. I could write paragraphs, but it boils down to "I wasn't happy." I wasn't miserable, or abused, or even feeling like I was unloved in my relationship. But I wasn't *happy*. I was sad to break up, and to know my ex was also sad and hurting. It wasn't a clear or an easy decision. But I thought that I deserved a chance to be happy. And I think you do, too.
posted by EvaDestruction at 4:12 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wasn't happy. I could write paragraphs, but it boils down to "I wasn't happy." I wasn't miserable, or abused, or even feeling like I was unloved in my relationship. But I wasn't *happy*. I was sad to break up, and to know my ex was also sad and hurting. It wasn't a clear or an easy decision. But I thought that I deserved a chance to be happy. And I think you do, too.
posted by EvaDestruction at 4:12 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
A guy who has been slightly nicer to you for a few days and given you his Netflix password, because he’s decided even though he’s not excited about you he’ll put up with you moving in so he can do fewer chores, is not exactly some sort of miracle you’ll never be able to improve on. None of this sounds like anything worth staying for, even if we look at this post completely in isolation from your past ones. I really, really hope you can leave him, for good.
But you asked for our own stories, so: in my previous long term relationship, after one break-up that didn’t stick, we broke up a second time for good mostly because at that deteriorating point in our relationship he didn’t actually like or respect me even if he maybe truly believed that he still “loved” me. And even if some of our individual days together were still lovely, overall being together wasn’t making either of us better and happier people than we were separately. We broke up, and it sucked, and then we each went on and found long term partners who were much better for us. I am so, so grateful that we didn’t settle for each other.
posted by Stacey at 4:31 PM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
But you asked for our own stories, so: in my previous long term relationship, after one break-up that didn’t stick, we broke up a second time for good mostly because at that deteriorating point in our relationship he didn’t actually like or respect me even if he maybe truly believed that he still “loved” me. And even if some of our individual days together were still lovely, overall being together wasn’t making either of us better and happier people than we were separately. We broke up, and it sucked, and then we each went on and found long term partners who were much better for us. I am so, so grateful that we didn’t settle for each other.
posted by Stacey at 4:31 PM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Hey real quick question (not for you to answer here, just for you):
Do you actually want to have children?
Because you've shared a whole whole lot of yourself with mefi in the last few years, you're in your mid 30s, and as best I can tell/recall you have never once said here that being a parent is something you want for yourself.
Because, like, if you don't want to have kids or be a parent, you suuuper don't have to. It is completely, entirely optional.
You don't have to be a parent, and you don't have to get married (to this person or anyone else) if you don't want to. Not ever, if you don't want to.
It took me a long time of hedging with "oh I don't even want to think of that til I'm older!" before I finally said out loud that I didn't want to be married and I didn't want to have kids (even though I remember pretty clearly not wanting either even back in elementary school). Let me tell you the RELIEF I felt once I admitted it to myself was unbelievable.
posted by phunniemee at 4:48 PM on July 17, 2023 [33 favorites]
Do you actually want to have children?
Because you've shared a whole whole lot of yourself with mefi in the last few years, you're in your mid 30s, and as best I can tell/recall you have never once said here that being a parent is something you want for yourself.
Because, like, if you don't want to have kids or be a parent, you suuuper don't have to. It is completely, entirely optional.
You don't have to be a parent, and you don't have to get married (to this person or anyone else) if you don't want to. Not ever, if you don't want to.
It took me a long time of hedging with "oh I don't even want to think of that til I'm older!" before I finally said out loud that I didn't want to be married and I didn't want to have kids (even though I remember pretty clearly not wanting either even back in elementary school). Let me tell you the RELIEF I felt once I admitted it to myself was unbelievable.
posted by phunniemee at 4:48 PM on July 17, 2023 [33 favorites]
I think I've just been trying to survive my life and clinging to him without any thought of the future. I think I have been using him to escape my own reality often. I also think if I wasn't broke, I would have broken up with him a long time ago. Even though he's never provided for me financially, I've always deferred my power to him, terrified of being alone and broke."
No wonder this feels impossible. Everyone is telling you to abandon your life raft! You feel like you'll drown. Weirdly, you also feel like he'll drown?
"I feel very scared. I do love him and this might destroy him."
Here's the thing - neither of you are each other's life raft. You're actually each other's water wings. Water wings are devices that make you feel like you should be safe, but actually work against you doing what you need to keep yourself afloat.
A long time ago, I was with a guy for seven years on and on-a-break and on and on-a-break and on and on and... I knew I should end it for good because I wanted to break up a lot, not every day but it became an intrusive thought. "What if I just broke up with him." But the thought didn't inspire a feeling of pleasure or relief. I was scared of the void he would leave. I didn't want to give up the nice times at his place when he'd hold me or make me tea. There were some very lovely times. But there were also lots and lots of times when I was deeply unhappy with him, and how the relationship made me feel about myself. After a while, when I tried to think about the future with him, I felt my mind go in tight little circles, like a wind-up toy. He asked me to marry him. I was appalled. I did not want to marry him.
I didn't end it right then. But I did, eventually, and I am so fucking glad I did.
Not at first though! For quite some time, I was sad and lonely and I missed him, and worse, worried about him. Eventually, I filled in the void with other comforts and routines; other loved ones and priorities. Now, it's well over a decade later. My life is not perfect. But it's mine, and there is a wonderful freedom in not living in fear of being alone. (I have a wonderful partner now. But I know I would also be ok on my own.) I still worry about my ex sometimes, but my real regret is not ending things with him much sooner. Staying with him longer would have stunted me; worn me down. I don't know what it would have done to him but I am glad I didn't find out.
You feeI right now that you would lose safety, losing him. But I would wager he never actually kept you safe, not really. In learning to live for yourself, you would be regaining your power. It will take time! You'll have to condition yourself to not rely on him as a mental and emotional default. This is harder when you're broke, for sure. I don't mean to discount that. But you're already supporting yourself financially. And supporting your own self - loving your self - is so, so worth it. You don't have to live in a little whirlpool of fear, trying to stay afloat.
I hope it's ok to say that I've thought about you from time to time since I answered a different question from you last year. The first quote I took from your question is so aching and self-aware. Hang on to the part of yourself working out those things; the questioning voice in your head and heart. That is your real life raft.
As you can tell, I see quite a bit of myself in these questions. It gets better, truly.. All the best, sunflower88. I am rooting for you.
posted by prewar lemonade at 4:53 PM on July 17, 2023 [21 favorites]
No wonder this feels impossible. Everyone is telling you to abandon your life raft! You feel like you'll drown. Weirdly, you also feel like he'll drown?
"I feel very scared. I do love him and this might destroy him."
Here's the thing - neither of you are each other's life raft. You're actually each other's water wings. Water wings are devices that make you feel like you should be safe, but actually work against you doing what you need to keep yourself afloat.
A long time ago, I was with a guy for seven years on and on-a-break and on and on-a-break and on and on and... I knew I should end it for good because I wanted to break up a lot, not every day but it became an intrusive thought. "What if I just broke up with him." But the thought didn't inspire a feeling of pleasure or relief. I was scared of the void he would leave. I didn't want to give up the nice times at his place when he'd hold me or make me tea. There were some very lovely times. But there were also lots and lots of times when I was deeply unhappy with him, and how the relationship made me feel about myself. After a while, when I tried to think about the future with him, I felt my mind go in tight little circles, like a wind-up toy. He asked me to marry him. I was appalled. I did not want to marry him.
I didn't end it right then. But I did, eventually, and I am so fucking glad I did.
Not at first though! For quite some time, I was sad and lonely and I missed him, and worse, worried about him. Eventually, I filled in the void with other comforts and routines; other loved ones and priorities. Now, it's well over a decade later. My life is not perfect. But it's mine, and there is a wonderful freedom in not living in fear of being alone. (I have a wonderful partner now. But I know I would also be ok on my own.) I still worry about my ex sometimes, but my real regret is not ending things with him much sooner. Staying with him longer would have stunted me; worn me down. I don't know what it would have done to him but I am glad I didn't find out.
You feeI right now that you would lose safety, losing him. But I would wager he never actually kept you safe, not really. In learning to live for yourself, you would be regaining your power. It will take time! You'll have to condition yourself to not rely on him as a mental and emotional default. This is harder when you're broke, for sure. I don't mean to discount that. But you're already supporting yourself financially. And supporting your own self - loving your self - is so, so worth it. You don't have to live in a little whirlpool of fear, trying to stay afloat.
I hope it's ok to say that I've thought about you from time to time since I answered a different question from you last year. The first quote I took from your question is so aching and self-aware. Hang on to the part of yourself working out those things; the questioning voice in your head and heart. That is your real life raft.
As you can tell, I see quite a bit of myself in these questions. It gets better, truly.. All the best, sunflower88. I am rooting for you.
posted by prewar lemonade at 4:53 PM on July 17, 2023 [21 favorites]
I feel very scared. I do love him and this might destroy him
His reaction to you making a decision for the betterment of yourself and your life is out of your control.
we have been in no man's land for so long. We barely hang out with anyone else; he doesn't know my family; I don't know his family. We've been in this bubble together ever since Covid.
This is not a foundation upon which a happy relationship is built. For either of you.
There's no such thing as a "last straw". This isn't a movie, where every action and actor has motives that are clearly defined/explained. If every fiber of your being right now is telling you NO NOT THIS NOT HIM NOT NOW, listen to that, honor it, and end the relationship, without waiting for one inciting event to give you That One Final Sign. He will be fine, or maybe he won't, but that's not something you can control, nor should it be a factor in your decision-making process.
posted by pdb at 4:57 PM on July 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
His reaction to you making a decision for the betterment of yourself and your life is out of your control.
we have been in no man's land for so long. We barely hang out with anyone else; he doesn't know my family; I don't know his family. We've been in this bubble together ever since Covid.
This is not a foundation upon which a happy relationship is built. For either of you.
There's no such thing as a "last straw". This isn't a movie, where every action and actor has motives that are clearly defined/explained. If every fiber of your being right now is telling you NO NOT THIS NOT HIM NOT NOW, listen to that, honor it, and end the relationship, without waiting for one inciting event to give you That One Final Sign. He will be fine, or maybe he won't, but that's not something you can control, nor should it be a factor in your decision-making process.
posted by pdb at 4:57 PM on July 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do love him and this might destroy him
It 100% will not.
posted by paper scissors sock at 5:07 PM on July 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
It 100% will not.
posted by paper scissors sock at 5:07 PM on July 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
If all he wants is someone to settle with and manage his house and have his children, I guarantee he can find someone else to do that. It won't destroy him. He's a man with a decent income. Leave that sad lot for someone else and find someone you're actually excited about.
You sound isolated and sad. Imagine how you'll feel when you've only had conversations about baby stuff for weeks with someone you don't even care about? Hellish.
posted by Summers at 5:21 PM on July 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
You sound isolated and sad. Imagine how you'll feel when you've only had conversations about baby stuff for weeks with someone you don't even care about? Hellish.
posted by Summers at 5:21 PM on July 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
My final straws all came down to "this person does not value me in the way I want to be valued." Based on your descriptions of this relationship, I would have reached my last straw a long time ago. In my case, for my last three multi-year relationships, they were:
Not checking in on me on a holiday they knew I was having a hard time with
Refusing to support me when my kid was in the hospital because they said they needed a break
After his vasectomy failed and led to me suffering for months due to an ectopic pregnancy, he focused on how it affected him rather than me
posted by metasarah at 5:27 PM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not checking in on me on a holiday they knew I was having a hard time with
Refusing to support me when my kid was in the hospital because they said they needed a break
After his vasectomy failed and led to me suffering for months due to an ectopic pregnancy, he focused on how it affected him rather than me
posted by metasarah at 5:27 PM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I nth everyone else that he'll find another new woman within 3 months (not even six) if you leave. Don't cry for him, Argentina.
Seriously. YOU TWO DON'T EVEN LIKE EACH OTHER. You have posted umpteen times that you *kinda* wanna break up. I know women are socialized to literally take any warm body with a penis and I know I've said that much as I hate that I've been single for nearly 20 years, I'd still prefer that to your boyfriend being my warm body with a penis, treating me like he does you most of the time.
I'm trying to think of a fresh argument here and here's one: is this the guy you want to spend 20+ years begging for child support from and arguing over joint custody with? Because I have a friend with a shitty ex that she is entwined with for life because she got pregnant and got married and popped 2 kids in succession and all the fucker is good for is taking the kids off her hands for 48 hours a week only on the two nights a week where she can't possibly do anything fun (and he makes that as difficult as he possibly can) and he does his best to avoid paying the child support. I'm pretty sure your shitty boyfriend will be a perfect ass to you re: having two small children even if you don't split with him, and he'll probably be an ass to the children too. Is this how you'd want to model marriage for kids? is this what you'd want for anyone?
I don't think he's accepted you so much as he is becoming resigned to the fact that you aren't going to leave.
This is a good point as well.
If he dropped dead out of nowhere tomorrow and being with him was no longer an option, how would you feel? Relieved, I bet. Seriously, he is not worth this agita and hell and you have reasons to not want to commit to him for life/biologically. Why not just...not... do that?
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:28 PM on July 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Seriously. YOU TWO DON'T EVEN LIKE EACH OTHER. You have posted umpteen times that you *kinda* wanna break up. I know women are socialized to literally take any warm body with a penis and I know I've said that much as I hate that I've been single for nearly 20 years, I'd still prefer that to your boyfriend being my warm body with a penis, treating me like he does you most of the time.
I'm trying to think of a fresh argument here and here's one: is this the guy you want to spend 20+ years begging for child support from and arguing over joint custody with? Because I have a friend with a shitty ex that she is entwined with for life because she got pregnant and got married and popped 2 kids in succession and all the fucker is good for is taking the kids off her hands for 48 hours a week only on the two nights a week where she can't possibly do anything fun (and he makes that as difficult as he possibly can) and he does his best to avoid paying the child support. I'm pretty sure your shitty boyfriend will be a perfect ass to you re: having two small children even if you don't split with him, and he'll probably be an ass to the children too. Is this how you'd want to model marriage for kids? is this what you'd want for anyone?
I don't think he's accepted you so much as he is becoming resigned to the fact that you aren't going to leave.
This is a good point as well.
If he dropped dead out of nowhere tomorrow and being with him was no longer an option, how would you feel? Relieved, I bet. Seriously, he is not worth this agita and hell and you have reasons to not want to commit to him for life/biologically. Why not just...not... do that?
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:28 PM on July 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
this might destroy him
When I ended my crappy abusive first marriage, my husband was devastated. He raged, he begged, he got down on his knees and cried. He loved me, he said. He was so sorry, and admitted everything was his fault. He'd be better from now on, he promised.
When I told him, as kindly as I could, that I was sorry but we were in fact over for good, he sobbed and threatened to kill himself. It was really hard because I seriously felt bad for him, but I knew I had to stay firm because this relationship was destroying my mental health.
A few weeks later he showed up at my door again, crying, because a friend had set him up with a girl and it didn't work out because she bluntly said she didn't find him attractive. He wrecked his vehicle while drunk. He got his ass kicked by trying to start some shit with a guy I was seeing. He just spiraled for weeks, although after the ass-kicking he took it elsewhere so I didn't have to see and at that point it started to be much easier to not worry about.
Fast forward 40 years: I recently ran across his social media profile. He's not destroyed, not even a little bit. He's married, they travel, he posts pictures of himself in Europe with his sunglasses hanging off the collar of his front-tucked T-shirt, smirking like he thinks he's cool. His wife posts pictures of family stuff and other people comment about what a "wonderful couple" they are. I can't know if he's actually happy (nor do I care) but he seems to have done all right. And he was a right fucking mess at the time we split.
I bet your guy will be fine as well. Fine-ish, at least. He'll most likely find himself another woman to put up with his shit and once you are living a free and happy life on your own, you won't even give a shit. I was shocked at how quickly I fell out of "love" with mine, once I was out from under his gaslighting and manipulation. Being away from him was so mentally and emotionally freeing. Not having to walk on eggshells all the time, not having to worry about what his moods meant, not hearing the constant subtle and not-so-subtle putdowns that had been chipping away at my self-esteem... I could actually breathe and it was amazing. I hope you will give yourself that same gift.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:50 PM on July 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
When I ended my crappy abusive first marriage, my husband was devastated. He raged, he begged, he got down on his knees and cried. He loved me, he said. He was so sorry, and admitted everything was his fault. He'd be better from now on, he promised.
When I told him, as kindly as I could, that I was sorry but we were in fact over for good, he sobbed and threatened to kill himself. It was really hard because I seriously felt bad for him, but I knew I had to stay firm because this relationship was destroying my mental health.
A few weeks later he showed up at my door again, crying, because a friend had set him up with a girl and it didn't work out because she bluntly said she didn't find him attractive. He wrecked his vehicle while drunk. He got his ass kicked by trying to start some shit with a guy I was seeing. He just spiraled for weeks, although after the ass-kicking he took it elsewhere so I didn't have to see and at that point it started to be much easier to not worry about.
Fast forward 40 years: I recently ran across his social media profile. He's not destroyed, not even a little bit. He's married, they travel, he posts pictures of himself in Europe with his sunglasses hanging off the collar of his front-tucked T-shirt, smirking like he thinks he's cool. His wife posts pictures of family stuff and other people comment about what a "wonderful couple" they are. I can't know if he's actually happy (nor do I care) but he seems to have done all right. And he was a right fucking mess at the time we split.
I bet your guy will be fine as well. Fine-ish, at least. He'll most likely find himself another woman to put up with his shit and once you are living a free and happy life on your own, you won't even give a shit. I was shocked at how quickly I fell out of "love" with mine, once I was out from under his gaslighting and manipulation. Being away from him was so mentally and emotionally freeing. Not having to walk on eggshells all the time, not having to worry about what his moods meant, not hearing the constant subtle and not-so-subtle putdowns that had been chipping away at my self-esteem... I could actually breathe and it was amazing. I hope you will give yourself that same gift.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:50 PM on July 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
I know a couple who have stuck it out for over 40 years, despite their obvious contempt for each other. They threaten divorce every few years, then pretend nothing happened, then they inevitably go back to holding their noses and mistreating each other.
Because “making each other miserable” is not, in their minds, sufficient cause for splitting up, I have to assume they both get some satisfaction out of this pattern:
1. Being insensitive to each other makes them feel clever or powerful
2. Threatening to split up gets them lots of attention (albeit with diminishing returns, at this point)
3. Getting back together gives them a sense of superiority over all those couples who “threw in the towel”
I have known them for 20 years, because I am married to their firstborn. He could tell you all sorts of things about what it’s like to be the child of a couple like this.
Do whatever you want with your own life, but please don’t have kids with this man. Kids deserve better.
posted by armeowda at 6:17 PM on July 17, 2023 [30 favorites]
Because “making each other miserable” is not, in their minds, sufficient cause for splitting up, I have to assume they both get some satisfaction out of this pattern:
1. Being insensitive to each other makes them feel clever or powerful
2. Threatening to split up gets them lots of attention (albeit with diminishing returns, at this point)
3. Getting back together gives them a sense of superiority over all those couples who “threw in the towel”
I have known them for 20 years, because I am married to their firstborn. He could tell you all sorts of things about what it’s like to be the child of a couple like this.
Do whatever you want with your own life, but please don’t have kids with this man. Kids deserve better.
posted by armeowda at 6:17 PM on July 17, 2023 [30 favorites]
Kids deserve to have parents who are madly in love with each other, and respectful to each other. Or were at least once madly in love, and are still respectful. Do you want to model a semi-miserable to totally miserable relationship for your future kids?
posted by Ollie at 6:28 PM on July 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Ollie at 6:28 PM on July 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Here’s how the “y’all would probably tell HIM to break up with ME!” thing strikes me…so what? Do you have to stay in this relationship that’s also a bad fit for him just because you can’t claim the high ground about fault and blame in the relationship?
To be clear, I think you have so much waiting for you on the other side of this relationship. But if what gives you the resolve to leave for good is thinking about the life you’d doom him to if you married him, I’ll take it.
posted by hollyholly at 6:31 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
To be clear, I think you have so much waiting for you on the other side of this relationship. But if what gives you the resolve to leave for good is thinking about the life you’d doom him to if you married him, I’ll take it.
posted by hollyholly at 6:31 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’ve told you to break up with him before, but even if I hadn’t, that’s what I’d tell you now. Honestly, it’s shocking to me that you would even consider marrying someone who has the fucking nerve to tell you to your face that he’s settling for you because he’s getting older and wants kids and you’re the only person available to him. Most people are clever enough to not actually come right out and say something like that — they’ll at least make an effort to say the right things. But this guy apparently thinks he’s such a hot item that you’ll marry him anyway, I guess because he’s think he’s doing you some kind of favor? Jesus Christ. It makes me furious on your behalf.
And no, you do not “have to do it.” You don’t. Even if you want kids, you don’t. That idea serves him, not you. It’s a line he’s fed you after he’s beaten you down so often that you have no confidence anymore. Do not sacrifice the rest of your left to a sunk cost fallacy this awful guy has convinced you is the truth.
posted by holborne at 6:42 PM on July 17, 2023 [27 favorites]
And no, you do not “have to do it.” You don’t. Even if you want kids, you don’t. That idea serves him, not you. It’s a line he’s fed you after he’s beaten you down so often that you have no confidence anymore. Do not sacrifice the rest of your left to a sunk cost fallacy this awful guy has convinced you is the truth.
posted by holborne at 6:42 PM on July 17, 2023 [27 favorites]
Oh, and your married male friend is giving you straight up bad advice. The “marriage is rough” thing is true. But he’s getting it backwards. “Marriage is rough” does not mean “Hey, marriage sucks anyway, so it doesn’t really matter if the relationship is crap at the beginning.” The point is that marriage will get eventually get rough at some point even when you love and respect each other, so you’d better make sure you have a rock solid foundation to help you weather the bad times. I’m sure I don’t really have to tell you that “Oh well, I really want kids and it will be too much work at my age to find someone else to do it with” doesn’t even faintly suggest love and respect, much less a rock solid foundation.
posted by holborne at 6:56 PM on July 17, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by holborne at 6:56 PM on July 17, 2023 [28 favorites]
and this might destroy him
it won’t and I think you are saying pretty clearly that it not destroying him is itself the thing you are afraid of. seeing him undestroyed by losing you will be the undeniable proof that there is nothing in him worth suffering for, no heroism in staying with him. there never was. if you could destroy him by leaving him, that would make you the one in charge - you wouldn’t be wasting your own time, you’d be choosing to save him at your own expense. if you could destroy him by leaving, you must be a merciful saint to stay instead.
this is a fantasy. you can leave or be left once you’ve wrung out the very last dregs of satisfaction from the fantasy, or you can leave sooner. you may not believe that exercising power and control over your life brings internal rewards to rival the pleasure of the fantasy. and in fact you shouldn’t take my word for it. it’s worth finding out for yourself.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:19 PM on July 17, 2023 [23 favorites]
it won’t and I think you are saying pretty clearly that it not destroying him is itself the thing you are afraid of. seeing him undestroyed by losing you will be the undeniable proof that there is nothing in him worth suffering for, no heroism in staying with him. there never was. if you could destroy him by leaving him, that would make you the one in charge - you wouldn’t be wasting your own time, you’d be choosing to save him at your own expense. if you could destroy him by leaving, you must be a merciful saint to stay instead.
this is a fantasy. you can leave or be left once you’ve wrung out the very last dregs of satisfaction from the fantasy, or you can leave sooner. you may not believe that exercising power and control over your life brings internal rewards to rival the pleasure of the fantasy. and in fact you shouldn’t take my word for it. it’s worth finding out for yourself.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:19 PM on July 17, 2023 [23 favorites]
1. You might find the latest podcast episode of "Where Should We Begin?" helpful to listen to. Esther Calling - Am I Being Gaslit? - The caller loves her partner, and her partner loves her, but it's pretty clear that the relationship isn't what is best for the caller.
2. Having recently ended a relationship - after a lot of back and forth... I wish I had done it sooner. Yes, I've lost a dear friend, but the peace that comes from being out of the situation has been so good for me. I reached my breaking point when the same thing that had happened so many times before happened again. I saw it for what it was, and I was finally so angry that I was able to reach the escape velocity. The distance has been helpful in understanding things for what they are - which was impossible to see while still interacting with this person.
3. I'll end with a poem:
AUTOBIOGRAPHY IN FIVE CHAPTERS
By Portia Nelson
1. I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost… I am hopeless.
It isn’t my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.
2. I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don’t see it.
I fall in again.
I can’t believe I’m in the same place.
But it isn’t my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.
3. I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in… It’s a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.
4. I walk down the same street
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.
5. I walk down another street.
posted by skunk pig at 7:25 PM on July 17, 2023 [31 favorites]
2. Having recently ended a relationship - after a lot of back and forth... I wish I had done it sooner. Yes, I've lost a dear friend, but the peace that comes from being out of the situation has been so good for me. I reached my breaking point when the same thing that had happened so many times before happened again. I saw it for what it was, and I was finally so angry that I was able to reach the escape velocity. The distance has been helpful in understanding things for what they are - which was impossible to see while still interacting with this person.
3. I'll end with a poem:
AUTOBIOGRAPHY IN FIVE CHAPTERS
By Portia Nelson
1. I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost… I am hopeless.
It isn’t my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.
2. I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don’t see it.
I fall in again.
I can’t believe I’m in the same place.
But it isn’t my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.
3. I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in… It’s a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.
4. I walk down the same street
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.
5. I walk down another street.
posted by skunk pig at 7:25 PM on July 17, 2023 [31 favorites]
You are worth more than this and you deserve more than this! You have my permission to break ties. Ten years ago, I left an 11 year relationship after it had become unavoidably toxic. I am so glad I am not with that person today. Your partner will be okay. And you have the chance to flourish. Flourish!!!! It will feel so good! It will be worth the transitional pain!
posted by sucre at 7:39 PM on July 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by sucre at 7:39 PM on July 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
As the product of a marriage between two people who got married because 1. my mother didn't want to be alone (and at 26 and in the South she was as good as a spinster) and 2. my father needed a step-mother for his three children, do not under any circumstances have children with this man.
My parents were miserable up until my father died in 2020. My mother wouldn't leave because she was financially dependent upon my father and my father wouldn't leave because he was a narcissistic, stubborn, manipulative, controlling asshole. My childhood was miserable. I begged my mother to leave when I was six. SIX.
If you want to stay, stay. That is your choice. But do not bring a child into this relationship. The child did not ask for this and the child will be miserable and will have fucked up ideas about what constitutes a relationship and will not thank you when they're old enough to leave. I have never forgiven my mother for staying in that marriage and not making a safe space for me, and I have never forgiven my father for being such an asshole.
Don't do that to another child.
posted by cooker girl at 8:04 PM on July 17, 2023 [24 favorites]
My parents were miserable up until my father died in 2020. My mother wouldn't leave because she was financially dependent upon my father and my father wouldn't leave because he was a narcissistic, stubborn, manipulative, controlling asshole. My childhood was miserable. I begged my mother to leave when I was six. SIX.
If you want to stay, stay. That is your choice. But do not bring a child into this relationship. The child did not ask for this and the child will be miserable and will have fucked up ideas about what constitutes a relationship and will not thank you when they're old enough to leave. I have never forgiven my mother for staying in that marriage and not making a safe space for me, and I have never forgiven my father for being such an asshole.
Don't do that to another child.
posted by cooker girl at 8:04 PM on July 17, 2023 [24 favorites]
Just to answer the first question you asked, directly: there was no last straw, as such. But, when we had got to the point of talking about separating, I thought about the kind of person I am, and the kind of person my ex is, and asked myself if I really believed that we were going to be able to reconcile. Like irrespective of blame and hurt and the past and stuff, did either of us have it in us to change in a way that was likely to produce a happier relationship? And when I thought about that, I realised the answer was "no."
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:17 PM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:17 PM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
For what it's worth, I was a grumpy single misanthrope at 35. I am now married to someone who's goals and desires are mostly compatible with mine, and we're way happier than you or he sound. I was not expecting that (there's even an askme in my history asking about being okay with being single). 37 is not measurably older than 35. You breaking up with him will not ruin this guy's chances, and you shouldn't let worrying that control your actions here.
posted by Alterscape at 8:34 PM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Alterscape at 8:34 PM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I came in to say the same things cooker girl said. If you can’t break up with this man for yourself, please do it for the children that would be the product of this marriage.
My mother is incredibly passive and, I’ve always suspected, married my father because she was single and getting older and had gotten a small deformity from an accident. I really think she married him because he was there and persuasive and she had near-zero self-esteem due to an emotionally abusive mother.
My father was physically and emotionally abusive to me and my brothers, and my mother let it happen. She has no backbone and has let a lot of people walk all over her through life. I can’t tell you how shitty it is as a girl to grow up with a mother that can’t model a single drop of self-esteem or personal strength. Not to mention a mother that just passively allows her husband to abuse her children. Like cooker girl, I wanted my mom to leave my dad from a very young age.
Please. Please please please. Leave this man now. If you’re someone who will let themself get talked into marrying a person that you don’t really love or even like, then I can’t imagine you won’t let yourself get talked into having children with him too. And if you get talked into those things, what kind of behaviors will you put up from him towards both your child(ren) and yourself? Now is the time to stand up and not just let this man decide what your future looks like for you.
posted by imalaowai at 8:44 PM on July 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
My mother is incredibly passive and, I’ve always suspected, married my father because she was single and getting older and had gotten a small deformity from an accident. I really think she married him because he was there and persuasive and she had near-zero self-esteem due to an emotionally abusive mother.
My father was physically and emotionally abusive to me and my brothers, and my mother let it happen. She has no backbone and has let a lot of people walk all over her through life. I can’t tell you how shitty it is as a girl to grow up with a mother that can’t model a single drop of self-esteem or personal strength. Not to mention a mother that just passively allows her husband to abuse her children. Like cooker girl, I wanted my mom to leave my dad from a very young age.
Please. Please please please. Leave this man now. If you’re someone who will let themself get talked into marrying a person that you don’t really love or even like, then I can’t imagine you won’t let yourself get talked into having children with him too. And if you get talked into those things, what kind of behaviors will you put up from him towards both your child(ren) and yourself? Now is the time to stand up and not just let this man decide what your future looks like for you.
posted by imalaowai at 8:44 PM on July 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
I deeply regret not breaking up with him during the plenty of times I had the opportunity to do so
Read these words you wrote.
posted by Glinn at 8:49 PM on July 17, 2023 [28 favorites]
Read these words you wrote.
posted by Glinn at 8:49 PM on July 17, 2023 [28 favorites]
Ask yourself “Does this person and this relationship make me happy?”
If the answer isn’t an immediate, enthusiastic yes, then break up with them.
Nothing else matters if you can’t answer yes to that question.
posted by MexicanYenta at 9:07 PM on July 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
If the answer isn’t an immediate, enthusiastic yes, then break up with them.
Nothing else matters if you can’t answer yes to that question.
posted by MexicanYenta at 9:07 PM on July 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I going to offer advice I have read else (including the wonderful Captain Awkward.
You need to sit down and figure out IF you did break up, what would happen next. Set aside the question of whether you should break up or how you would survive the emotional fallout. Focus on the practical parts. What happens to your budget? Where would you live? Who could help you out with the transition? What would your life look like in six months or twelve months. Not how you would feel, but what would you do with the extra time and energy that you had if you no longer had this relationship in your life. Are there things that you would add or do differently? Again, focus on the practical parts, not the emotions. And remember, this is just an exercise - no commitment to actually break up.
But if you can get very clear and specific about what would happen next, you may find your fear starts to subside and then you can think about what is actually best for you. Right now, your fear is trying to get you to stay with the promise that you will be less afraid if you stick to what you know. If you can quiet the fear with facts, then maybe you will have a chance to really think about what YOU really want for yourself.
And Captain Awkward's similar but much more elegant and thoughtful answer to this question is here.
posted by metahawk at 9:32 PM on July 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
You need to sit down and figure out IF you did break up, what would happen next. Set aside the question of whether you should break up or how you would survive the emotional fallout. Focus on the practical parts. What happens to your budget? Where would you live? Who could help you out with the transition? What would your life look like in six months or twelve months. Not how you would feel, but what would you do with the extra time and energy that you had if you no longer had this relationship in your life. Are there things that you would add or do differently? Again, focus on the practical parts, not the emotions. And remember, this is just an exercise - no commitment to actually break up.
But if you can get very clear and specific about what would happen next, you may find your fear starts to subside and then you can think about what is actually best for you. Right now, your fear is trying to get you to stay with the promise that you will be less afraid if you stick to what you know. If you can quiet the fear with facts, then maybe you will have a chance to really think about what YOU really want for yourself.
And Captain Awkward's similar but much more elegant and thoughtful answer to this question is here.
posted by metahawk at 9:32 PM on July 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
Think about this for a moment: Why would you ever choose to be with someone who is not excited to be with you?
Fuck Yes or No
posted by bendy at 9:43 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Fuck Yes or No
posted by bendy at 9:43 PM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Something that can help is to tell your story to friends who only know you and not the partner. I know it’s hard to say out loud how you’re feeling, but when you hear your own voice saying how ambivalent and not-happy-making the situation is, it can help it click into place that the actual question is “when”, not “if” (and that the best answer to “when” is “soon”).
A thing to watch out for is a pattern of self-criticism along the lines of “if the right thing to do is leave, then I’ve already screwed up by staying for so long”. Don’t beat up on yourself for not being ready before you were ready. (That said, it sounds like you’re ready to be ready now.)
posted by rivenwanderer at 9:50 PM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
A thing to watch out for is a pattern of self-criticism along the lines of “if the right thing to do is leave, then I’ve already screwed up by staying for so long”. Don’t beat up on yourself for not being ready before you were ready. (That said, it sounds like you’re ready to be ready now.)
posted by rivenwanderer at 9:50 PM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel like I'm waiting for the final straw, but I keep forgiving him and letting him say things to me without repercussions as it feels too hard to end such a long relationship.
In my early 20’s I did something like your boyfriend always does, just not so mean. We’d been dating for a few months, his family liked me, he’s a good person, I liked him a lot, but we were both naive at that age. Another guy had a crush on me and I decided to give him a chance so I broke up with my boyfriend and went out with him one night and we made out. Even during dinner I realized that I didn’t like him at all.
Within a couple days I was back with my boyfriend. I told him then about my date and he asked me why I did that. I said, “because I could.” It was a cold, disrespectful and dismissive thing for me to say. Things got really uncomfortable between us after that and he broke up with me within a week.
To this day I feel guilty for saying and doing something so mean and rude. I know this isn’t the same situation but people who say mean things deserve repercussions.
posted by bendy at 10:11 PM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
One additional detail to keep in mind: when it comes to people, make decisions based on how they are now, not how you imagine they might one day turn out to be. I get the impression some of your tension is coming from a hopeful but optimistic imagination of who this man may ultimately grow into rather than who you’ve known him to be.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 3:37 AM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 3:37 AM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Him being gentle and kind day to day does not change the situation. You can be gentle and kind breaking up with him too.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:51 AM on July 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:51 AM on July 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hi OP, I started writing this last night before your update. One more story in case you need it.
I agree with RobinofFrocksley. You are growing and becoming more self-aware. I can see it too.
I also see that you are bound up in a lot of fears. You're afraid to be with him. You're afraid to be without him. You have this overwhelming feeling to not move in with him, yet you feel guilty and ashamed for feeling that. How do you choose? First, feelings are not facts. Try to think about your potential future kids. And how he's going to be a dad and husband to you while you're pregnant and uncomfortable, labour and delivery, recovering from birth, having issues with breastfeeding (VERY common, nothing to be ashamed about), and feeling like you want the earth to swallow you up when you're waken up for the umpteenth time in the middle of the night.
Is he going to be there for you? Or are you going to row about the decision to have kids, or about your income and dependency on him, and that you're supposed to manage the household yet you're exhausted and want to hire help, but no, you're supposed to do it all. You think he's being gendered now? It's not going to get better, friend. He's going to leave all the childrearing to you and if you feel overwhelmed, he'll very likely blame it on you. And don't even get me started on daycare costs, or if he would make you stay home. You say you have a claustrophobic feeling that you'll be trapped? Feelings aren't facts, but we do know that thanks to patriarchy, it's VERY easy to get a woman stuck at home with the kids under the guise of "he makes more money, daycare is expensive, women should stay home and take care of the kids" etc. Meanwhile being out of the workforce, you're losing your earning power. Think about how he's treating you now and imagine him doing that to your innocent children. Think about how they must feel, AND to see their dad treating their mom like he does.
I'll tell you the story of my ex, whom I met when I was 31 and didn't have a ton of relationship experience prior to that. He's 8 years older. He was all right, we're both vegetarian and he always answered/returned my calls. He held my hand when he was driving. We would say "I love you" regularly to each other in the beginning. The hand holding and I love you's dropped off gradually and I chalked it up "this is just how things are - this sort of stuff always wanes." LOL little did I know.
5 months in, we went to Iceland. We had a weird argument after watching So You Think You Can Dance Canada. One of the choreographed pieces was about domestic violence. I can't remember what we argued about, but I felt really weird afterwards. I should have ended it then, but I didn't. Why? Because then I'd have to go back online and try again. I was 31, almost 32 at this point!! And also, I convinced myself I loved him. Love is a choice, right? I loved him. (Or at least that's what I said to myself) I didn't know anything, but try convincing me of that at that point! I believed that we could work things out with good communication and all that. LOL. Turned out, he has shit communication and didn't care to work things out.
A few months later, he asked, "Do you want to be with me forever?" Reader, MY MIND SAID NO. But out loud, I said yes. WTF!!! He then said, "I would like at least one child." I was touched that he wanted to have a kid with me. My sister had a baby about 3 years prior, and I thought, ok, maybe I could do this. So many contradictions in me, it doesn't make sense. He also woke me up early in the morning to say this.
At the one year mark I moved in. He said that he wanted me to move in earlier on. I moved in not because of the relationship, but at my apartment building at the time, I didn't have a spot to lock my bike anymore. So that was the final straw in me leaving that building and moving in with him. Ridiculous, right? But that's what I did. I always figured, I can try this out for a year and then I can move out. I couldn't even pick up on my own red flag.
So I moved in. Things were... fine. But not really. He was always messy. He didn't have a proper garbage bin. We agreed I would do laundry for both of us, and he would do dishes (or something, I can't remember exact details), and of course he didn't hold up his end of the bargain. We'd have dumb arguments about stuff. I never felt that I could talk to him about stuff.
About 4 months later after I moved in, I found out I was pregnant. Yay, exciting! And then, I was mostly on my own. We didn't sleep in the same bed anymore. He snored. I'd move him around to get him to stop snoring. I guess he got sick of that and eventually started sleeping on the couch. He has his own business, so he'd be working all the time. He'd come home late, then lie on the couch surfing on his laptop, then fall asleep. I gave up asking him to come to bed. I didn't want to face how bad this relationship was becoming. I'm really good at denial and avoidance. He'd come with me to prenatal appointments. He was there for me during labour and delivery. When we brought the baby home, he stayed with me in bed for about a week with the baby in a bassinet next to the bed and told me I was doing a great job. I said he was too. WTF, I was doing most of the work! I'm an independent person so I was able to do everything by myself ok. I was lucky - I had a healthy pregnancy and no major complications after birth, though I had a C-section. I worked though breastfeeding issues on my own. I still remember the time that I was trying to get some much needed sleep and he woke me up for some dumb reason. I couldn't face his insensitivity at the time.
And that's how we were for a few years. Really separate. I had not given much thought to how I wanted family life to look, due to my own trauma. I didn't know what I wanted. I didn't know who I was. I was fortunate in that I had a well-paying job and good work benefits that I could take a year mat leave.
July 2015 was a precipitating event. It's in my post history. That still wasn't the final straw, though. I wasn't able to see how effed up his behaviour was, but I could. It was just too hard to accept that this would mean the end of the relationship, that this was who he really was, and of course I wanted an intact family for my kid, yet I was secretly wanting to co-parent so I could have days to myself. So maybe I manifested things in a way. That event yielded some tough conversations about whether or not to stay together. Still, no decision. There was one day that he said "I'm sorry." I hugged him and cried. Yet I didn't know what he was sorry about. I knew about the Dear Sugar "You don't need a reason to stay." I didn't relate to that. The famous Ask Mefi emotional labour thread came out soon after. Still wasn't clicking with me.
I talked to friends about him. I still wasn't able to see, one of whom asked, "if a friend was telling you about a situation like yours, what would you tell them?" I had no effing clue. That thought experiment wasn't helpful. I said at another time, "maybe I should stay until kid is 18." And she said that's the sort of thing our mothers would say. And she was right. I had a few sessions with my old therapist, whom I stopped seeing a few years prior. I didn't get a lot out of it, so I gave up seeing her. I'd go in early to work and sit at an empty desk and write, and he took our kid to daycare. He wasn't doing that to be helpful, that was his way of having time alone with our kid because he felt that she and I were too bonded and he felt left out. He realized that he liked our kid and wanted to spend time with her - she has a great personality, even as a baby. I shudder to think, what if he didn't like her or had special needs or something. Nov 2015 I had a getaway weekend for myself because again, he didn't want me around with our kid, not because he was doing something nice for me. I wrote in my diary "what should we do?" Not realizing I didn't REALLY want to be with him. That it's ok to break up. It's ok to end things. Kid will be ok. It was really hard to imagine that. One day he told me that I used to be fun. And that he sees a darkness in me now. LOLOL that's not insulting at all! /s It's clear to me now that he wanted a manic pixie dream girl.
January 2016. We were talking about sleeping arrangements. He was still sleeping on the couch and it was hurting his back, but he didn't want to sleep with me. I said, "this begs the question of where is this relationship going - do you ever see sleeping with me again?" He said no. He went to his room. And that was it. It was done. I didn't cry. I kept working on this macrame project, weaving in those moments into the thread, and sending it off to a group swap and someone else would have that moment of time. I emailed a friend about our decision, how I finally came to the realization, "I don't want [ex] to be my life partner, and I don't want my life partner to be [ex]." (Yeah, that seems like it's the same thing, but there is a slight nuance between the two). And yet, it was HE who had to say no. Ugh. I met with a couple of other friends the next day, and I couldn't tell them. It was too fresh. When I told my mom, she said that she could see the separation coming. Btw, it was this Captain Awkward letter that clicked in for me, where OP says in a comment, "i don’t want you to be my caretaker, i DON’T. i want you to be my BOYFRIEND." I couldn't say that I wanted ex to be my life partner.
A few months later I moved out. Prior to that, I'd call my work's EAP line about common-law separation and how spousal support and child support would work. I saw a family therapist to talk about child custody. Ended up not liking her and talked to a therapist from EAP about it. We ended up not going through the courts. Figured out which days I'd have our kid and which days he would. It was a minute long conversation. Decided not to pursue child or spousal support because I make a good salary.
I bought my own place and the first night that I moved in I felt that I could breathe. I didn't even know I needed that. I emailed our kid's daycare teacher and said sorry I didn't tell you this earlier that ex and I have separated. They were very understanding and supportive. Kid was 4 by this time and she dealt with it pretty well. She still got to see her dad and I think that helped. Ex and I get along fine even though he still irritates me sometimes, he is still selfish but it's good that we don't interact with each other a ton. I honestly don't think about him much.
So I understand your ambivalence and not being sure which way to go and still hoping that by some miracle, it will work out. Jan 2016 was the 5.5 year mark for us, so similar to where you are. By the time I moved out, it had been six years since we met. It's been 7 years since I moved out, so longer than we were together. My story and situation isn't like yours, my ex isn't like yours, I am not like you, but I understand how hard it is to make a decision even when it's SO clear to outsiders. My preference is to not have to engage with him at all, but it's fine. My preference is to not be in this situation, even if it's not that bad because yes, I would rather have an intact family for my kid (and myself), but that's just not possible with the ex so this is what works the best. Kid is doing great and is at his place 3 days a week.
You asked when is the final straw and when does one give up hope - it's going to be different for everyone and I understand that you're looking for an example or a story to follow. For some there is no final straw. Either way, it's when you decide it's done, and you have to make that choice for yourself. Do you want him to be your husband? Do you want your husband to be your bf? Do you want to be together forever? Pay attention to your body and how it's reacting as you contemplate these questions. If you hear an inner voice saying no, it's no. If you say "I don't know" it's a no. If you're not saying YES I want this and feel happy and excited about it, it's a no. I think you're waiting for yourself to have the strength to break up, for the fears to dissipate. I believe in you that will make the right decision for yourself, whether it's to end it, or to stay with him.
It's almost been 4.5 years with my current partner. It's night and day with him and my ex. He's beautiful inside and out, we have great chemistry, I can tell him anything, his weird matches my weird. We laugh ALL the time. We compliment each other regularly. He cares about me and what I think. He listens to me and empathizes. We trust and respect each other. We still have the hots for each other. He doesn't snore! He takes care of his health. He's not vegetarian but that's ok. We're very relaxed around each other. We support each other. He and my kid get along well too. We're long distance, he lives in Seattle and Sea-Tac airport being the hellscape it is, the first time I visited him in spring 2019, I missed my flight because the security line was too damn long (get to the airport 3 hours beforehand is no joke). While in line I called him, I might miss my flight. He offered to drive me to Vancouver (I didn't ask!), so I could get another flight because there wasn't another one going to Toronto (where I live) for several hours, and when I did miss my flight at Sea-Tac, that's what he did. He picked me up, and dropped me at Vancouver airport and turned around and drove home. Contrast that to my ex, who couldn't even walk beside me as we left the hospital after I gave birth. I was going slow, I was uncomfortable because walking was hard after a C-section.
>I should have asked for a break or something.
Friend, you can still ask for a break. Rip the bandaid off and do it.
posted by foxjacket at 5:56 AM on July 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
I agree with RobinofFrocksley. You are growing and becoming more self-aware. I can see it too.
I also see that you are bound up in a lot of fears. You're afraid to be with him. You're afraid to be without him. You have this overwhelming feeling to not move in with him, yet you feel guilty and ashamed for feeling that. How do you choose? First, feelings are not facts. Try to think about your potential future kids. And how he's going to be a dad and husband to you while you're pregnant and uncomfortable, labour and delivery, recovering from birth, having issues with breastfeeding (VERY common, nothing to be ashamed about), and feeling like you want the earth to swallow you up when you're waken up for the umpteenth time in the middle of the night.
Is he going to be there for you? Or are you going to row about the decision to have kids, or about your income and dependency on him, and that you're supposed to manage the household yet you're exhausted and want to hire help, but no, you're supposed to do it all. You think he's being gendered now? It's not going to get better, friend. He's going to leave all the childrearing to you and if you feel overwhelmed, he'll very likely blame it on you. And don't even get me started on daycare costs, or if he would make you stay home. You say you have a claustrophobic feeling that you'll be trapped? Feelings aren't facts, but we do know that thanks to patriarchy, it's VERY easy to get a woman stuck at home with the kids under the guise of "he makes more money, daycare is expensive, women should stay home and take care of the kids" etc. Meanwhile being out of the workforce, you're losing your earning power. Think about how he's treating you now and imagine him doing that to your innocent children. Think about how they must feel, AND to see their dad treating their mom like he does.
I'll tell you the story of my ex, whom I met when I was 31 and didn't have a ton of relationship experience prior to that. He's 8 years older. He was all right, we're both vegetarian and he always answered/returned my calls. He held my hand when he was driving. We would say "I love you" regularly to each other in the beginning. The hand holding and I love you's dropped off gradually and I chalked it up "this is just how things are - this sort of stuff always wanes." LOL little did I know.
5 months in, we went to Iceland. We had a weird argument after watching So You Think You Can Dance Canada. One of the choreographed pieces was about domestic violence. I can't remember what we argued about, but I felt really weird afterwards. I should have ended it then, but I didn't. Why? Because then I'd have to go back online and try again. I was 31, almost 32 at this point!! And also, I convinced myself I loved him. Love is a choice, right? I loved him. (Or at least that's what I said to myself) I didn't know anything, but try convincing me of that at that point! I believed that we could work things out with good communication and all that. LOL. Turned out, he has shit communication and didn't care to work things out.
A few months later, he asked, "Do you want to be with me forever?" Reader, MY MIND SAID NO. But out loud, I said yes. WTF!!! He then said, "I would like at least one child." I was touched that he wanted to have a kid with me. My sister had a baby about 3 years prior, and I thought, ok, maybe I could do this. So many contradictions in me, it doesn't make sense. He also woke me up early in the morning to say this.
At the one year mark I moved in. He said that he wanted me to move in earlier on. I moved in not because of the relationship, but at my apartment building at the time, I didn't have a spot to lock my bike anymore. So that was the final straw in me leaving that building and moving in with him. Ridiculous, right? But that's what I did. I always figured, I can try this out for a year and then I can move out. I couldn't even pick up on my own red flag.
So I moved in. Things were... fine. But not really. He was always messy. He didn't have a proper garbage bin. We agreed I would do laundry for both of us, and he would do dishes (or something, I can't remember exact details), and of course he didn't hold up his end of the bargain. We'd have dumb arguments about stuff. I never felt that I could talk to him about stuff.
About 4 months later after I moved in, I found out I was pregnant. Yay, exciting! And then, I was mostly on my own. We didn't sleep in the same bed anymore. He snored. I'd move him around to get him to stop snoring. I guess he got sick of that and eventually started sleeping on the couch. He has his own business, so he'd be working all the time. He'd come home late, then lie on the couch surfing on his laptop, then fall asleep. I gave up asking him to come to bed. I didn't want to face how bad this relationship was becoming. I'm really good at denial and avoidance. He'd come with me to prenatal appointments. He was there for me during labour and delivery. When we brought the baby home, he stayed with me in bed for about a week with the baby in a bassinet next to the bed and told me I was doing a great job. I said he was too. WTF, I was doing most of the work! I'm an independent person so I was able to do everything by myself ok. I was lucky - I had a healthy pregnancy and no major complications after birth, though I had a C-section. I worked though breastfeeding issues on my own. I still remember the time that I was trying to get some much needed sleep and he woke me up for some dumb reason. I couldn't face his insensitivity at the time.
And that's how we were for a few years. Really separate. I had not given much thought to how I wanted family life to look, due to my own trauma. I didn't know what I wanted. I didn't know who I was. I was fortunate in that I had a well-paying job and good work benefits that I could take a year mat leave.
July 2015 was a precipitating event. It's in my post history. That still wasn't the final straw, though. I wasn't able to see how effed up his behaviour was, but I could. It was just too hard to accept that this would mean the end of the relationship, that this was who he really was, and of course I wanted an intact family for my kid, yet I was secretly wanting to co-parent so I could have days to myself. So maybe I manifested things in a way. That event yielded some tough conversations about whether or not to stay together. Still, no decision. There was one day that he said "I'm sorry." I hugged him and cried. Yet I didn't know what he was sorry about. I knew about the Dear Sugar "You don't need a reason to stay." I didn't relate to that. The famous Ask Mefi emotional labour thread came out soon after. Still wasn't clicking with me.
I talked to friends about him. I still wasn't able to see, one of whom asked, "if a friend was telling you about a situation like yours, what would you tell them?" I had no effing clue. That thought experiment wasn't helpful. I said at another time, "maybe I should stay until kid is 18." And she said that's the sort of thing our mothers would say. And she was right. I had a few sessions with my old therapist, whom I stopped seeing a few years prior. I didn't get a lot out of it, so I gave up seeing her. I'd go in early to work and sit at an empty desk and write, and he took our kid to daycare. He wasn't doing that to be helpful, that was his way of having time alone with our kid because he felt that she and I were too bonded and he felt left out. He realized that he liked our kid and wanted to spend time with her - she has a great personality, even as a baby. I shudder to think, what if he didn't like her or had special needs or something. Nov 2015 I had a getaway weekend for myself because again, he didn't want me around with our kid, not because he was doing something nice for me. I wrote in my diary "what should we do?" Not realizing I didn't REALLY want to be with him. That it's ok to break up. It's ok to end things. Kid will be ok. It was really hard to imagine that. One day he told me that I used to be fun. And that he sees a darkness in me now. LOLOL that's not insulting at all! /s It's clear to me now that he wanted a manic pixie dream girl.
January 2016. We were talking about sleeping arrangements. He was still sleeping on the couch and it was hurting his back, but he didn't want to sleep with me. I said, "this begs the question of where is this relationship going - do you ever see sleeping with me again?" He said no. He went to his room. And that was it. It was done. I didn't cry. I kept working on this macrame project, weaving in those moments into the thread, and sending it off to a group swap and someone else would have that moment of time. I emailed a friend about our decision, how I finally came to the realization, "I don't want [ex] to be my life partner, and I don't want my life partner to be [ex]." (Yeah, that seems like it's the same thing, but there is a slight nuance between the two). And yet, it was HE who had to say no. Ugh. I met with a couple of other friends the next day, and I couldn't tell them. It was too fresh. When I told my mom, she said that she could see the separation coming. Btw, it was this Captain Awkward letter that clicked in for me, where OP says in a comment, "i don’t want you to be my caretaker, i DON’T. i want you to be my BOYFRIEND." I couldn't say that I wanted ex to be my life partner.
A few months later I moved out. Prior to that, I'd call my work's EAP line about common-law separation and how spousal support and child support would work. I saw a family therapist to talk about child custody. Ended up not liking her and talked to a therapist from EAP about it. We ended up not going through the courts. Figured out which days I'd have our kid and which days he would. It was a minute long conversation. Decided not to pursue child or spousal support because I make a good salary.
I bought my own place and the first night that I moved in I felt that I could breathe. I didn't even know I needed that. I emailed our kid's daycare teacher and said sorry I didn't tell you this earlier that ex and I have separated. They were very understanding and supportive. Kid was 4 by this time and she dealt with it pretty well. She still got to see her dad and I think that helped. Ex and I get along fine even though he still irritates me sometimes, he is still selfish but it's good that we don't interact with each other a ton. I honestly don't think about him much.
So I understand your ambivalence and not being sure which way to go and still hoping that by some miracle, it will work out. Jan 2016 was the 5.5 year mark for us, so similar to where you are. By the time I moved out, it had been six years since we met. It's been 7 years since I moved out, so longer than we were together. My story and situation isn't like yours, my ex isn't like yours, I am not like you, but I understand how hard it is to make a decision even when it's SO clear to outsiders. My preference is to not have to engage with him at all, but it's fine. My preference is to not be in this situation, even if it's not that bad because yes, I would rather have an intact family for my kid (and myself), but that's just not possible with the ex so this is what works the best. Kid is doing great and is at his place 3 days a week.
You asked when is the final straw and when does one give up hope - it's going to be different for everyone and I understand that you're looking for an example or a story to follow. For some there is no final straw. Either way, it's when you decide it's done, and you have to make that choice for yourself. Do you want him to be your husband? Do you want your husband to be your bf? Do you want to be together forever? Pay attention to your body and how it's reacting as you contemplate these questions. If you hear an inner voice saying no, it's no. If you say "I don't know" it's a no. If you're not saying YES I want this and feel happy and excited about it, it's a no. I think you're waiting for yourself to have the strength to break up, for the fears to dissipate. I believe in you that will make the right decision for yourself, whether it's to end it, or to stay with him.
It's almost been 4.5 years with my current partner. It's night and day with him and my ex. He's beautiful inside and out, we have great chemistry, I can tell him anything, his weird matches my weird. We laugh ALL the time. We compliment each other regularly. He cares about me and what I think. He listens to me and empathizes. We trust and respect each other. We still have the hots for each other. He doesn't snore! He takes care of his health. He's not vegetarian but that's ok. We're very relaxed around each other. We support each other. He and my kid get along well too. We're long distance, he lives in Seattle and Sea-Tac airport being the hellscape it is, the first time I visited him in spring 2019, I missed my flight because the security line was too damn long (get to the airport 3 hours beforehand is no joke). While in line I called him, I might miss my flight. He offered to drive me to Vancouver (I didn't ask!), so I could get another flight because there wasn't another one going to Toronto (where I live) for several hours, and when I did miss my flight at Sea-Tac, that's what he did. He picked me up, and dropped me at Vancouver airport and turned around and drove home. Contrast that to my ex, who couldn't even walk beside me as we left the hospital after I gave birth. I was going slow, I was uncomfortable because walking was hard after a C-section.
>I should have asked for a break or something.
Friend, you can still ask for a break. Rip the bandaid off and do it.
posted by foxjacket at 5:56 AM on July 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments by the OP ave been removed.
OP, we mentioned in various previous posts of yours that AskMe is for answering concrete questions, and not so much for "talking" back and forth with commenters. It's fine to pop in to clarify if people want or need more info, but otherwise just take in the answers, and determine for yourself what is useful for your purposes.
If you continue to engage in this behavior, your account will be removed. Please stop doing this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:58 AM on July 18, 2023
OP, we mentioned in various previous posts of yours that AskMe is for answering concrete questions, and not so much for "talking" back and forth with commenters. It's fine to pop in to clarify if people want or need more info, but otherwise just take in the answers, and determine for yourself what is useful for your purposes.
If you continue to engage in this behavior, your account will be removed. Please stop doing this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:58 AM on July 18, 2023
A year and a half ago, my very long term relationship ended. It wasn't my choice, though I had been feeling ambivalent / like I wanted it to end for a long time. But, I thought, it wasn't bad enough to blow up my whole life and start over. I had doubts, like you do. And my partner did too, and the catalyst for the breakup was that he met someone that he liked better than he liked me.
It was really hard to be alone, at first.... I felt like I had very little chance of finding someone better. I dated, but I mostly worked on myself, on rediscovering who I was, on being happy on my terms. It took a year, but honestly my life improved so much. I found so much gratitude that my partner had done this, because I didn't have the courage to, but it really needed to happen.
Then, a couple months ago, I met someone who is a much, much better fit. It's amazing. It's so much better than it ever was with my ex. There is ZERO doubt. No ambivalence at all, for either of us. I'm happier than I've ever been before. It also made me see, in retrospect, how unhappy I had been. I thought I was OK in that relationship, but I wasn't. We get used to our circumstances, and sometimes can't see how bad they are until we have left them behind.
So my advice to you, if you're both pretty ambivalent about each other, is to break up, because there is someone out there about whom you will not feel ambivalent. You'll feel like there is no question you want to be with them. This person is not that person. If you're asking this question, the answer is that they are not right for you.
I'm sorry, but also, I'm excited for you! Because you will absolutely find a better life without him! Be brave and do the thing you need to do for your own peace and happiness.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:03 AM on July 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
It was really hard to be alone, at first.... I felt like I had very little chance of finding someone better. I dated, but I mostly worked on myself, on rediscovering who I was, on being happy on my terms. It took a year, but honestly my life improved so much. I found so much gratitude that my partner had done this, because I didn't have the courage to, but it really needed to happen.
Then, a couple months ago, I met someone who is a much, much better fit. It's amazing. It's so much better than it ever was with my ex. There is ZERO doubt. No ambivalence at all, for either of us. I'm happier than I've ever been before. It also made me see, in retrospect, how unhappy I had been. I thought I was OK in that relationship, but I wasn't. We get used to our circumstances, and sometimes can't see how bad they are until we have left them behind.
So my advice to you, if you're both pretty ambivalent about each other, is to break up, because there is someone out there about whom you will not feel ambivalent. You'll feel like there is no question you want to be with them. This person is not that person. If you're asking this question, the answer is that they are not right for you.
I'm sorry, but also, I'm excited for you! Because you will absolutely find a better life without him! Be brave and do the thing you need to do for your own peace and happiness.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:03 AM on July 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
If it's not a HELL YES, then it's a no. You already know what to do.
posted by emelenjr at 6:26 AM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 6:26 AM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
It is absolutely true that I would also tell him this isn't a good relationship that he should exit. You should both exit! It's not a competition!
You're desperately trying to game the system solely out of fear of being alone. But you know deep down that settling doesn't work - you're just putting your unhappiness on a deferred loan, to buy time to think of something to make it all okay before the bills start coming due. But you won't. All you'll do is make it more complicated to leave.
This is NOT SUSTAINABLE. One of you will leave eventually. At best all you will accomplish is delaying the inevitable and making the cost to leave significantly higher when it comes.
how did you get through periods where you must have desperately wished to end it?
This does not happen in a healthy relationship. It doesn't even really happen in okay-but-not-great relationships.
I wish you strength and clarity here. You seem really determined to run straight into a brick wall with a tunnel painted on it, and it's hard to watch. I wish somebody knew the right words to tell you that "how you know it's time" is when you keep asking "how do you know it's time", because people in good relationships do not have this concern.
Almost all relationships end in in break-up. Some make it to death, but statistically, at this point in time where it's less likely women are trapped by economics, the numbers aren't great. Even good relationships sometimes - maybe even more than 'sometimes' - run out the clock, grow in different directions, encounter new requirements in new life stages. I think if you could see past the panic for a minute and recognize that, it would be a lot easier for you to see more clearly how little runtime this relationship has left in it.
This isn't about a "final straw". You're not living in a soap opera, you're making choices about your investment in your future. You're looking for A Sign instead of seeing all the quite boring mundane signs. Worrying - correctly - about getting "trapped"* in a marriage is all the sign you need.
*Also, no. You likely won't be trapped in a marriage for terribly long. He'll leave when the first kid gets fully into toddlerhood, probably just after the second one comes. He won't be the sole focus of your attention anymore, and he'll be expected to help, and that won't be fun. Or he'll be so shitty to the kids (but probably only sometimes, knowing you have decision-making issues around intermittent abuse) you'll eventually leave to protect them...as best you can until his legal hold over you and them expires. Those outcomes are at least as likely as him magically changing and y'all having a long and happy life together, so you better prep for the possibility.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:52 AM on July 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
You're desperately trying to game the system solely out of fear of being alone. But you know deep down that settling doesn't work - you're just putting your unhappiness on a deferred loan, to buy time to think of something to make it all okay before the bills start coming due. But you won't. All you'll do is make it more complicated to leave.
This is NOT SUSTAINABLE. One of you will leave eventually. At best all you will accomplish is delaying the inevitable and making the cost to leave significantly higher when it comes.
how did you get through periods where you must have desperately wished to end it?
This does not happen in a healthy relationship. It doesn't even really happen in okay-but-not-great relationships.
I wish you strength and clarity here. You seem really determined to run straight into a brick wall with a tunnel painted on it, and it's hard to watch. I wish somebody knew the right words to tell you that "how you know it's time" is when you keep asking "how do you know it's time", because people in good relationships do not have this concern.
Almost all relationships end in in break-up. Some make it to death, but statistically, at this point in time where it's less likely women are trapped by economics, the numbers aren't great. Even good relationships sometimes - maybe even more than 'sometimes' - run out the clock, grow in different directions, encounter new requirements in new life stages. I think if you could see past the panic for a minute and recognize that, it would be a lot easier for you to see more clearly how little runtime this relationship has left in it.
This isn't about a "final straw". You're not living in a soap opera, you're making choices about your investment in your future. You're looking for A Sign instead of seeing all the quite boring mundane signs. Worrying - correctly - about getting "trapped"* in a marriage is all the sign you need.
*Also, no. You likely won't be trapped in a marriage for terribly long. He'll leave when the first kid gets fully into toddlerhood, probably just after the second one comes. He won't be the sole focus of your attention anymore, and he'll be expected to help, and that won't be fun. Or he'll be so shitty to the kids (but probably only sometimes, knowing you have decision-making issues around intermittent abuse) you'll eventually leave to protect them...as best you can until his legal hold over you and them expires. Those outcomes are at least as likely as him magically changing and y'all having a long and happy life together, so you better prep for the possibility.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:52 AM on July 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Best answer: My final straw was that I realized he wasn’t happy or excited to see me when I came home, even when I was away for a few days.
There’s a quote (the internet says it was Wiesel but you know the internet) that the opposite of love isn’t hate, but apathy/indifference. To me that includes “meh, we’re all we have.”
posted by kimberussell at 8:22 AM on July 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
There’s a quote (the internet says it was Wiesel but you know the internet) that the opposite of love isn’t hate, but apathy/indifference. To me that includes “meh, we’re all we have.”
posted by kimberussell at 8:22 AM on July 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think you're operating with an unconscious assumption that breaking up is something you get to do only if your partner is unremittingly and totally bad all the time always? As if a breakup is punishment or comeuppance or just deserts.
But it's not. It's an act of integrity and honesty. You wish you were free of this relationship, therefore you break up.
As much as everyone here is right, and you definitely deserve better than what this guy is offering, it's equally important to note that HE deserves better than a partner who so desperately wishes to be free of him.
posted by MiraK at 9:24 AM on July 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
But it's not. It's an act of integrity and honesty. You wish you were free of this relationship, therefore you break up.
As much as everyone here is right, and you definitely deserve better than what this guy is offering, it's equally important to note that HE deserves better than a partner who so desperately wishes to be free of him.
posted by MiraK at 9:24 AM on July 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Please do not put yourself and - more importantly - your children through this.
posted by veebs at 11:30 AM on July 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by veebs at 11:30 AM on July 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
A lot of times, not-so-great relationships can limp a long for decades but fall apart at the WORST possible moment (an economic calamity, a gravely ill child, a cancer diagnosis, mental illness). Don't wait til the worst possible moment.
posted by brachiopod at 12:18 PM on July 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by brachiopod at 12:18 PM on July 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
A personal anecdote. My close friend has been sick of her marriage for more than a decade. As the years passed, she's had less and less hope that things would turn around somehow and he'd stop being such a thoughtless jerk. But she knew he would be destroyed if she left, so she stayed. The occasional moments of sweetness and laughter made the guilt way worse. Sometimes she would say, "I wish he was the kind of guy who beat me up, that would make it so much easier to leave."
A couple of weeks ago, something shifted for my friend. Nothing big, she just woke up and felt like a stranger was lying next to her. She gathered up all her courage to say, "I don't think our marriage is working anymore," and he responded with, "Wow. You want to give up on us and get a divorce? Fine. On your head be it."
He called a lawyer within literally ten minutes, and a couple of hours later he gave her a list of all his accounts and assets, saying, "You want a divorce, you figure this out and you pay a lawyer to draft up a divorce agreement." The next day he had found an apartment and put down a deposit. He's been calling up his family members and telling them, "She has decided to leave me, there's nothing I can do, she won't listen." He's been packing up and he's ready to move out tomorrow from his marital home of 15 years, just 15 days after she said the marriage isn't working.
For two weeks my friend has been saying to me, "Wow, it's all so mature, he obviously blames me which is totally fair, but he's respecting my wishes without a fight! He's making it so smooth for us, there's no drama, he's not giving me a hard time at all, he's not pressuring me or guilting me, wow."
Yesterday they signed the separation papers. Immediately after the signing, she called me from the parking lot of her lawyer's office SOBBING her heart out... because it had just struck her that all this had been TOO easy.
She had just noticed that her husband never said, "Wait, no, don't leave, we can work this out!" - let alone, "Please, no, don't go, I'm sorry, I love you so much, I can't imagine life without you," etc. She realized in that parking lot that he had wanted out all along. He had been waiting for a good enough excuse to leave. He'd stayed only because he didn't want to be labeled "the bad guy".
I think she has one more heartbreaking realization coming: his feelings are exactly the same as hers were throughout the years, except she's feeling the weight of responsibility for ending the marriage and he isn't. I think if HE had said the marriage wasn't working, my friend would also have reacted like he was reacting now: with relief bordering on jubilation, barely concealed. It's going to be so painful for her to realize SHE spent 15 years playing a game of chicken with this man, it wasn't just him.
Sunflower88, don't be like my friend. Even (and especially!) if, in your case, these feelings of wanting out are one-sided, I can think of few things more tragic than for you to repress those feelings and put on your game face and move in with him, all because you can't take the guilt that comes with breaking up.
posted by MiraK at 12:19 PM on July 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
A couple of weeks ago, something shifted for my friend. Nothing big, she just woke up and felt like a stranger was lying next to her. She gathered up all her courage to say, "I don't think our marriage is working anymore," and he responded with, "Wow. You want to give up on us and get a divorce? Fine. On your head be it."
He called a lawyer within literally ten minutes, and a couple of hours later he gave her a list of all his accounts and assets, saying, "You want a divorce, you figure this out and you pay a lawyer to draft up a divorce agreement." The next day he had found an apartment and put down a deposit. He's been calling up his family members and telling them, "She has decided to leave me, there's nothing I can do, she won't listen." He's been packing up and he's ready to move out tomorrow from his marital home of 15 years, just 15 days after she said the marriage isn't working.
For two weeks my friend has been saying to me, "Wow, it's all so mature, he obviously blames me which is totally fair, but he's respecting my wishes without a fight! He's making it so smooth for us, there's no drama, he's not giving me a hard time at all, he's not pressuring me or guilting me, wow."
Yesterday they signed the separation papers. Immediately after the signing, she called me from the parking lot of her lawyer's office SOBBING her heart out... because it had just struck her that all this had been TOO easy.
She had just noticed that her husband never said, "Wait, no, don't leave, we can work this out!" - let alone, "Please, no, don't go, I'm sorry, I love you so much, I can't imagine life without you," etc. She realized in that parking lot that he had wanted out all along. He had been waiting for a good enough excuse to leave. He'd stayed only because he didn't want to be labeled "the bad guy".
I think she has one more heartbreaking realization coming: his feelings are exactly the same as hers were throughout the years, except she's feeling the weight of responsibility for ending the marriage and he isn't. I think if HE had said the marriage wasn't working, my friend would also have reacted like he was reacting now: with relief bordering on jubilation, barely concealed. It's going to be so painful for her to realize SHE spent 15 years playing a game of chicken with this man, it wasn't just him.
Sunflower88, don't be like my friend. Even (and especially!) if, in your case, these feelings of wanting out are one-sided, I can think of few things more tragic than for you to repress those feelings and put on your game face and move in with him, all because you can't take the guilt that comes with breaking up.
posted by MiraK at 12:19 PM on July 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
this might destroy him
You know what? It might. It MIGHT. You know what else MIGHT destroy him? Cancer. A heart attack. A stroke. Losing his job. Being hit by a bus. Being hit by lightning. A piano falling from a window. Being abducted by an alien. (Hopefully you see where I'm going here...). There are a lot of things in life that MIGHT destroy us, every single day. A fubared relationship finally ending is just one of the many many things in life that can alter the trajectory of our lives.
But you want to know what WILL destroy YOU? This relationship. 100% abso-fuck-ing-lutely.
Do you really think destroying yourself is more important than that slight possibility of destroying him?
Please tell me it's not. Please stop destroying yourself.
posted by cgg at 1:56 PM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
You know what? It might. It MIGHT. You know what else MIGHT destroy him? Cancer. A heart attack. A stroke. Losing his job. Being hit by a bus. Being hit by lightning. A piano falling from a window. Being abducted by an alien. (Hopefully you see where I'm going here...). There are a lot of things in life that MIGHT destroy us, every single day. A fubared relationship finally ending is just one of the many many things in life that can alter the trajectory of our lives.
But you want to know what WILL destroy YOU? This relationship. 100% abso-fuck-ing-lutely.
Do you really think destroying yourself is more important than that slight possibility of destroying him?
Please tell me it's not. Please stop destroying yourself.
posted by cgg at 1:56 PM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Even though he's never provided for me financially, I've always deferred my power to him
You know that's not a thing, right? You don't have to submit to someone just because they're the breadwinner.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:07 PM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
You know that's not a thing, right? You don't have to submit to someone just because they're the breadwinner.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:07 PM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
So, I could have really asked nearly this exact question, twice in my life! Different mediocre (for me, perfectly great guys) boyfriends!
The answer is that.. there really is no final final straw. Or the final straw happened a while ago, and you barely noticed. It's not going to be some big moment where you know "oh yes this is over" - instead it's just a creeping thing, a feeling that, when you consider your relationship, part of you says "no, this isn't the right relationship" even though it's hard to listen to that part, and it's not very insistent. Both my previous long term relationships before I got married were.. fine. Honestly! They were even good sometimes. But they weren't IT, and part of me knew that. It always felt just a bit unsatisfying.. for all of us, even though both my boyfriends were pretty happy with me - but they weren't over the moon, you know?
In my experience, this sort of relationship ambivalence will end up with one of the two parties cheating eventually. And then there's an excuse to end the relationship that feels iron-clad, and the relationship will end. That said, I wish I'd just broken up with both boyfriends before we had to end in a big, upsetting mess. and we weren't married. It's worse when you're married, because then you have to legally have a big mess too.
Don't agree to the housework thing, for SURE:
If you're both working full time then you're responsible for the same amount of housework, earning potential doesn't factor in, house duties are a time problem, not a money problem. If you can work less then you can do more housework. (I don't work fridays and I do 5 hours of housework on fridays.)
posted by euphoria066 at 2:17 PM on July 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
The answer is that.. there really is no final final straw. Or the final straw happened a while ago, and you barely noticed. It's not going to be some big moment where you know "oh yes this is over" - instead it's just a creeping thing, a feeling that, when you consider your relationship, part of you says "no, this isn't the right relationship" even though it's hard to listen to that part, and it's not very insistent. Both my previous long term relationships before I got married were.. fine. Honestly! They were even good sometimes. But they weren't IT, and part of me knew that. It always felt just a bit unsatisfying.. for all of us, even though both my boyfriends were pretty happy with me - but they weren't over the moon, you know?
In my experience, this sort of relationship ambivalence will end up with one of the two parties cheating eventually. And then there's an excuse to end the relationship that feels iron-clad, and the relationship will end. That said, I wish I'd just broken up with both boyfriends before we had to end in a big, upsetting mess. and we weren't married. It's worse when you're married, because then you have to legally have a big mess too.
Don't agree to the housework thing, for SURE:
If you're both working full time then you're responsible for the same amount of housework, earning potential doesn't factor in, house duties are a time problem, not a money problem. If you can work less then you can do more housework. (I don't work fridays and I do 5 hours of housework on fridays.)
posted by euphoria066 at 2:17 PM on July 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
As an additional data point for you as someone who did feel like this in some relationships, as I said, I DON'T feel ambivalent about my relationship with my husband. I feel totally different in this relationship.
I'm wildly in love with him and he's wildly in love with me. I feel extremely "blessed" - a concept I do not believe in, but feel regardless - to have found someone who wants to make my life easier and happier, and consistently makes decisions and compromises to make my life better. And I do the same for him, because I want to. It's better, it's happier, it's easier.
Go out and get happy! I'm super glad this isn't my question! You could be too!
posted by euphoria066 at 2:39 PM on July 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm wildly in love with him and he's wildly in love with me. I feel extremely "blessed" - a concept I do not believe in, but feel regardless - to have found someone who wants to make my life easier and happier, and consistently makes decisions and compromises to make my life better. And I do the same for him, because I want to. It's better, it's happier, it's easier.
Go out and get happy! I'm super glad this isn't my question! You could be too!
posted by euphoria066 at 2:39 PM on July 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Would just like to add another data point to the "this will destroy him" thing: I have divorced one man and broken up two relationships of more than 4 years. Every one was hard, every time there were boatloads of tears and declarations and drama. In one case I had real reason to fear a suicidal crisis.
None of those guys are destroyed.
ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the men I have broken up with in my lifetime are FUCKING THRIVING. They are married, they have kids, they have completely overhauled their careers, they've gone to school, they've moved to other cities, they're dating people half their age (which, gross, but whatever floats yer boat) they're great.
You aren't really afraid that he'll be destroyed though. That's just a selfless coating to put on the fear of having to take your own power back and make decisions, and be accountable to yourself for the life you have, instead of secretly being able to blame whatever is wrong on your shitty subpar boyfriend.
It's much easier, isn't it, to sit there miserable and know you can always say, "of course I'm miserable, my husband was forced to settle for me, and I was forced to settle for him." To let him make all the choices and therefore make him the one to blame when those choices are bad.
No, you're not afraid that he'll be destroyed. You're afraid YOU will be, because if you leave him you just have yourself, and you don't like yourself, and you don't trust yourself to live a life.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:40 PM on July 18, 2023 [17 favorites]
None of those guys are destroyed.
ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the men I have broken up with in my lifetime are FUCKING THRIVING. They are married, they have kids, they have completely overhauled their careers, they've gone to school, they've moved to other cities, they're dating people half their age (which, gross, but whatever floats yer boat) they're great.
You aren't really afraid that he'll be destroyed though. That's just a selfless coating to put on the fear of having to take your own power back and make decisions, and be accountable to yourself for the life you have, instead of secretly being able to blame whatever is wrong on your shitty subpar boyfriend.
It's much easier, isn't it, to sit there miserable and know you can always say, "of course I'm miserable, my husband was forced to settle for me, and I was forced to settle for him." To let him make all the choices and therefore make him the one to blame when those choices are bad.
No, you're not afraid that he'll be destroyed. You're afraid YOU will be, because if you leave him you just have yourself, and you don't like yourself, and you don't trust yourself to live a life.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:40 PM on July 18, 2023 [17 favorites]
There was a question here not too long ago along the lines of “How do you know when you have a real, genuine gut feeling about something?”
Your question really reminds me of the times I’ve had a gut feeling about something. It doesn’t always present as clarity; it doesn’t always present as relief. In fact, often a gut feeling is telling you something that you really, strongly, don’t want to be true. You keep trying to persuade yourself otherwise, bargaining and reasoning and debating and just wearing yourself out.
But the gut feeling is a certainty that just won’t go away. It can feel like a cold stone you’re carrying around with you if it’s something you don’t want to be true. But gradually, over time, it comes back again and again until you run out of ways to argue against it and you have to just pull on your big girl pants and admit it’s true and you have to act on it, no matter how hard or scary that might be.
You sound very much like you have a gut feeling that you need to end this relationship, it’s not going away, and your phase of denial and debating is nearly done.
(On the bright side, I agree with everyone above who says that being single is totally fine and honestly miles more freeing and enjoyable than dragging that cold stone around with you the whole time).
posted by penguin pie at 3:12 PM on July 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Your question really reminds me of the times I’ve had a gut feeling about something. It doesn’t always present as clarity; it doesn’t always present as relief. In fact, often a gut feeling is telling you something that you really, strongly, don’t want to be true. You keep trying to persuade yourself otherwise, bargaining and reasoning and debating and just wearing yourself out.
But the gut feeling is a certainty that just won’t go away. It can feel like a cold stone you’re carrying around with you if it’s something you don’t want to be true. But gradually, over time, it comes back again and again until you run out of ways to argue against it and you have to just pull on your big girl pants and admit it’s true and you have to act on it, no matter how hard or scary that might be.
You sound very much like you have a gut feeling that you need to end this relationship, it’s not going away, and your phase of denial and debating is nearly done.
(On the bright side, I agree with everyone above who says that being single is totally fine and honestly miles more freeing and enjoyable than dragging that cold stone around with you the whole time).
posted by penguin pie at 3:12 PM on July 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Are you trying to get us to tell you to stay? To be brave and vibrant, or to stay afraid and contained?
Look...... You've got a lot of posts about this guy and are just neon flashing anxiety and unhappiness here. You've got a lot invested in staying with him, even though you know you shouldn't. I'd do a lot of self reflection about what you want. What are you afraid of? What does eternally chasing after him get you? It can be hard to burst out of our cocoon and be on our own. It's scary to trade the devil you know for uncertainty.
What do you want us to say? What should you be asking? You've got tens of thousands of words with thousands of favorites saying that you should leave for your own good. None of us are saying to stay. Not one. The internet strangers care more about you than he does. It's time. I promise. Leave and live a life for you.
And maybe get checked for depression.
"It is not love bombing" Yeahhhh, it is. It absolutely is textbook part of the cycle.
posted by Jacen at 3:13 PM on July 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
Look...... You've got a lot of posts about this guy and are just neon flashing anxiety and unhappiness here. You've got a lot invested in staying with him, even though you know you shouldn't. I'd do a lot of self reflection about what you want. What are you afraid of? What does eternally chasing after him get you? It can be hard to burst out of our cocoon and be on our own. It's scary to trade the devil you know for uncertainty.
What do you want us to say? What should you be asking? You've got tens of thousands of words with thousands of favorites saying that you should leave for your own good. None of us are saying to stay. Not one. The internet strangers care more about you than he does. It's time. I promise. Leave and live a life for you.
And maybe get checked for depression.
"It is not love bombing" Yeahhhh, it is. It absolutely is textbook part of the cycle.
posted by Jacen at 3:13 PM on July 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
So ummm, there's almost definitely something very cathartic for you about venting here on metafilter. It's a pressure release.
It also externalises all the doubts and fears you have into opinions from *other* people, so rather than having constant internal arguments where you take both the For & Against positions for breaking up, instead you come here, someone else takes the 'breakup' viewpoint, and suddenly all you have to do is argue the "don't breakup" view, and argue to yourself that he can be kind, and you'll miss him, and that really, you haven't given all these internet strangers the *full* story of your life, no matter how much you clarify things, so you aren't being fair!
And this vent, this emotional release, will allow you to just... Continue in this relationship which you have these recurring feelings of *dread* about.
I have had several situations with friends and family, who were in toxic relationships, and I eventually realised that each time I allowed them to vent to me, and encouraged them that it was ok to leave if they were feeling like that - that actually, it was just providing the pressure relief valve that was allowing them to *stay* in the toxic relationship.
One friend, I eventually asked how long he thought he would have stayed in the relationship if he *hadn't* been able to come vent to me every time they had a fight, and have someone listen sympathetically until he was able to calm down -
And with a look of shock and embarrassment, he said, "Uh, probably only 2 weeks after that first fight? It would have been too stressful". 🤦🏻
That relationship isn't your one obviously.
But another relatives was more similar. Saying it was ok for her to leave the relationship that she was *saying out loud (like you) that she wanted to leave*, just meant that she would flip into defending the relationship, and it shored her up to continue in the relationship that she didn't actually want to be in.
Relatives helped sort out alternative accommodation and set her up so that she *could* move out and leave, because that's a challenge when you're poor, and she changed her mind at the last minute, even in ways that left other people out of pocket.
I stopped engaging.
I just stopped. I was no longer available to vent too.
It wasn't reverse psychology or anything, but when she said that she wanted to leave her partner, I just replied that when she *truly wanted to*, she would. I thought that was pretty innocuous -
But she got upset at me and said that she wanted to *now*. Which is interesting, because the script usually went that we encouraged her in what she said, and then she listed all the tiny ways that it was working as opposed to the really big ways that it wasn't working.
So, I was a bit nonplussed, and just said that, of course I would be there to support her if she actually left, but she was saying the same things she'd said for the last few years about wanting to leave, so it didn't really sound any different this time, and that when she was really to leave, she would, but that it wasn't really something that my opinion was relevant too, because that was a decision she had to make.
Every time she complained, I just said, if you really want to leave, you will, but we've been over this, and I want to talk about something else.
She... left for good within a couple of months. 🤦🏻
And look, your situation reminds me of that.
You vented to your group therapy, and they *didn't tell you to break up*, and that wasn't enough, was it?
So you came on here *instead* because you need someone *else* to voice all the concerns and doubts you have - so that you can argue against them!
You have had doubts about this relationship for most of the relationship. You both have.
You have circled round these thoughts for years now.
I don't think anything has or will change after this post, versus the previous posts you have made.
I'm not being mean, but I think it is most likely that you are going to do the same things you did after all the other times you have vented about this relationship.
You are probably going to just continue in the relationship as you have been, with these occasional feelings of dread.
You are not going to leave, until *you* are ready to leave, and what we are saying is probably counter-productive if anything.
You don't want to leave at the moment.
You want to have us say that so you can argue against it in your own head.
It's kind of like the anxiety seeking-reassurance pattern.
Our opinions ultimately don't matter.
You are not going to leave, until *you* want to leave.
posted by Elysum at 5:33 PM on July 18, 2023 [96 favorites]
It also externalises all the doubts and fears you have into opinions from *other* people, so rather than having constant internal arguments where you take both the For & Against positions for breaking up, instead you come here, someone else takes the 'breakup' viewpoint, and suddenly all you have to do is argue the "don't breakup" view, and argue to yourself that he can be kind, and you'll miss him, and that really, you haven't given all these internet strangers the *full* story of your life, no matter how much you clarify things, so you aren't being fair!
And this vent, this emotional release, will allow you to just... Continue in this relationship which you have these recurring feelings of *dread* about.
I have had several situations with friends and family, who were in toxic relationships, and I eventually realised that each time I allowed them to vent to me, and encouraged them that it was ok to leave if they were feeling like that - that actually, it was just providing the pressure relief valve that was allowing them to *stay* in the toxic relationship.
One friend, I eventually asked how long he thought he would have stayed in the relationship if he *hadn't* been able to come vent to me every time they had a fight, and have someone listen sympathetically until he was able to calm down -
And with a look of shock and embarrassment, he said, "Uh, probably only 2 weeks after that first fight? It would have been too stressful". 🤦🏻
That relationship isn't your one obviously.
But another relatives was more similar. Saying it was ok for her to leave the relationship that she was *saying out loud (like you) that she wanted to leave*, just meant that she would flip into defending the relationship, and it shored her up to continue in the relationship that she didn't actually want to be in.
Relatives helped sort out alternative accommodation and set her up so that she *could* move out and leave, because that's a challenge when you're poor, and she changed her mind at the last minute, even in ways that left other people out of pocket.
I stopped engaging.
I just stopped. I was no longer available to vent too.
It wasn't reverse psychology or anything, but when she said that she wanted to leave her partner, I just replied that when she *truly wanted to*, she would. I thought that was pretty innocuous -
But she got upset at me and said that she wanted to *now*. Which is interesting, because the script usually went that we encouraged her in what she said, and then she listed all the tiny ways that it was working as opposed to the really big ways that it wasn't working.
So, I was a bit nonplussed, and just said that, of course I would be there to support her if she actually left, but she was saying the same things she'd said for the last few years about wanting to leave, so it didn't really sound any different this time, and that when she was really to leave, she would, but that it wasn't really something that my opinion was relevant too, because that was a decision she had to make.
Every time she complained, I just said, if you really want to leave, you will, but we've been over this, and I want to talk about something else.
She... left for good within a couple of months. 🤦🏻
And look, your situation reminds me of that.
You vented to your group therapy, and they *didn't tell you to break up*, and that wasn't enough, was it?
So you came on here *instead* because you need someone *else* to voice all the concerns and doubts you have - so that you can argue against them!
You have had doubts about this relationship for most of the relationship. You both have.
You have circled round these thoughts for years now.
I don't think anything has or will change after this post, versus the previous posts you have made.
I'm not being mean, but I think it is most likely that you are going to do the same things you did after all the other times you have vented about this relationship.
You are probably going to just continue in the relationship as you have been, with these occasional feelings of dread.
You are not going to leave, until *you* are ready to leave, and what we are saying is probably counter-productive if anything.
You don't want to leave at the moment.
You want to have us say that so you can argue against it in your own head.
It's kind of like the anxiety seeking-reassurance pattern.
Our opinions ultimately don't matter.
You are not going to leave, until *you* want to leave.
posted by Elysum at 5:33 PM on July 18, 2023 [96 favorites]
Maybe we all just need to argue that Sunflower's boyfriend is the best she's ever going to do, he's nice to her occasionally and that's as good as it gets and really, she just needs to buckle down, get married and have kids with him instantly and all will be okay? Because if that helps, I'll join Team Boyfriend Is A Keeper 4-Evah if that's the argument you need...
Seriously, not snarking when I say this, but I think Elysium has it right. If all of us arguing to leave only makes you want to argue reasons to stay, then maybe we all need to join Team Boyfriend?
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:52 PM on July 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
Seriously, not snarking when I say this, but I think Elysium has it right. If all of us arguing to leave only makes you want to argue reasons to stay, then maybe we all need to join Team Boyfriend?
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:52 PM on July 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
C'mon, friend, you're not happy. This isn't as good as it gets. In case it helps, after much agonizing, I ended a much longer, I think much better relationship than yours and I have never regretted it once. I am as old as your boyfriend, my new boyfriend is older, and no one had to settle for anything. I wish you well as you navigate this.
posted by ferret branca at 8:01 PM on July 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by ferret branca at 8:01 PM on July 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
I just wanted to add context to my comment about not putting any future children through this. My parents were similar to you and your partner; they married and had kids because they were both in their early thirties and panicked. My dad only wanted children to prove that he could, then went on to dump them on my mother post-divorce. My mother didn’t want kids and only had them because she was afraid that my dad would leave her.
They had a terrible, violent marriage. My dad drank himself to death, my mother had a series of terrible relationships - all of which lead to a very chaotic childhood for my brother and I.
I’m almost 50 now, my brother a few years younger and we still bear the scars from these times, although we deal with them in our own ways. This is only one story, but I’m sure not the only one. Good luck!
posted by veebs at 5:01 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
They had a terrible, violent marriage. My dad drank himself to death, my mother had a series of terrible relationships - all of which lead to a very chaotic childhood for my brother and I.
I’m almost 50 now, my brother a few years younger and we still bear the scars from these times, although we deal with them in our own ways. This is only one story, but I’m sure not the only one. Good luck!
posted by veebs at 5:01 AM on July 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean, this guy will let you put a potted plant on his balcony. What a star! You hardly ever find anyone so willing to make such a huge sacrifice! Everyone else here is wrong, you'd be mad to let this one go. If you feel yourself starting to have doubts again, just think how happy your plant will be!
Did that sound laughable? Good. Every "reason" you've given to stay is just as worthy as that potted plant's happiness.
See you back in another few months, the next time you are miserable enough to post another question about this relationship. If you were ready to leave him, you wouldn't be here asking - you'd be leaving him. How unhappy, how beaten down, how bonsai-ed do you have to get before you are ready to leave? Only you can answer that question.
posted by Athanassiel at 6:14 AM on July 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Did that sound laughable? Good. Every "reason" you've given to stay is just as worthy as that potted plant's happiness.
See you back in another few months, the next time you are miserable enough to post another question about this relationship. If you were ready to leave him, you wouldn't be here asking - you'd be leaving him. How unhappy, how beaten down, how bonsai-ed do you have to get before you are ready to leave? Only you can answer that question.
posted by Athanassiel at 6:14 AM on July 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Best answer: I had a comically obvious last straw with my dumb thing but it didn't do me any immediate good because I ignored it for another year. We'd been to some awful party where he turned his back on me all night as was his wont and we were fighting in the car on the way home--and side note! This fighting in the car! So dangerous! so many opportunities for us both to get killed and/or get in a head-on collision with a vanful of innocent toddlers! You'd think fighting in the car endangering our lives and those of everyone else on the road would be sufficient evidence that it was a bad match, but no, neither of us thought that was a reason to officially end things. Anyway, that we were fighting dangerously in the car wasn't the obvious last straw it would have been for sane people because it had happened one billion times before and was SOP for this horrible relationship, but what stood out this time was I actually said out loud the scary thing I'd been thinking for, oh, who knows, the previous five to ten years? namely "This thing is OVER." And he sat there like a malevolent toad staring at the road in front of him concentrating on not hitting any vans and said nothing at all but he had an expression on his face like "Ya think?"
Like? Both of us knew it was over! For years and years and years! And nobody said anything! And when I did finally say the obvious thing, we both ignored it for yet another year! For a year we tortured ourselves and needlessly endangered vansful of innocent toddlers with our roadfighting ways.
I am one of many in this thread who have tuned in to this saga over your many posts about it and who have detected new and promising forward progress in this latest post of yours. You may be about to end it in a week or two, or you may be years back from the end like me when I first started to think, "Uhoh..." But it does look like you're on the track, now. I have a single piece of minor advice about this stage other than the major advice everybody has already given you, which is not to react to the feeling of "uhoh, it's ending" by locking yourself into it legally or biologically. That new minor advice is the following:
In my experience the fighting you do in the last months or years of a years-old terrible relationship that has been hanging on because both people are reluctant to kill it includes some of the most deliciously stupidly dramatic scenes you will ever live through in your life. So when you do finally kick him to the curb, maybe keep a designated diary to record the events and the spectacularly dumb things each of you say and do. Life is so boring much of the time, when you do have a ton of idiotic drama, it's good to pay attention. It's painful, sure, but it's also darkly fun. It's also good later on in life to have these memories so that down the road when you're in a decent mutually satisfying relationship with someone you love, you can look back and compare and contrast. And shake your head. And sigh in happy relief. And every time you go somewhere together in the car, revel in the astonishing safety of nearby toddlers in vans.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:39 AM on July 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
Like? Both of us knew it was over! For years and years and years! And nobody said anything! And when I did finally say the obvious thing, we both ignored it for yet another year! For a year we tortured ourselves and needlessly endangered vansful of innocent toddlers with our roadfighting ways.
I am one of many in this thread who have tuned in to this saga over your many posts about it and who have detected new and promising forward progress in this latest post of yours. You may be about to end it in a week or two, or you may be years back from the end like me when I first started to think, "Uhoh..." But it does look like you're on the track, now. I have a single piece of minor advice about this stage other than the major advice everybody has already given you, which is not to react to the feeling of "uhoh, it's ending" by locking yourself into it legally or biologically. That new minor advice is the following:
In my experience the fighting you do in the last months or years of a years-old terrible relationship that has been hanging on because both people are reluctant to kill it includes some of the most deliciously stupidly dramatic scenes you will ever live through in your life. So when you do finally kick him to the curb, maybe keep a designated diary to record the events and the spectacularly dumb things each of you say and do. Life is so boring much of the time, when you do have a ton of idiotic drama, it's good to pay attention. It's painful, sure, but it's also darkly fun. It's also good later on in life to have these memories so that down the road when you're in a decent mutually satisfying relationship with someone you love, you can look back and compare and contrast. And shake your head. And sigh in happy relief. And every time you go somewhere together in the car, revel in the astonishing safety of nearby toddlers in vans.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:39 AM on July 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
You've asked for stories about ending long-term relationships. I was 39 and living with a partner who I had been with for almost 8 years; we owned an apartment together. On paper we made a good match, and we both made good money which made our day-to-day lives easy. But he was an extremely closed-off person who I couldn't talk to about anything more important than what we wanted to have for dinner, he despised my hobbies and interests and refused to meet most of my friends, he drank way too much and tried to hide it from me by concealing empty bottles in the trash, and he clearly resented me for not wanting to have children. I felt myself withdrawing further and further into myself, and almost disassociating from my life a lot of the time.
I chose to break up with him because I wanted a different life. And almost as soon as we were done, I got it. My life now is rich and fulfilling; I feel deeply connected to my community, I have a new partner who makes me feel alive and desired, we have tons of mutual friends and a rich, creative, connected life. Financially, things are much tougher for me but the trade-off has been completely worth it. I deeply regret staying with my ex for so long and also causing him so much pain when I broke up with him, but staying with him would have been a terrible decision for both of us. It's absolutely okay to put yourself first, to realise the relationship you're in isn't working anymore, and to try for something better, and you absolutely can have it – but you have to take that first step of getting out of the relationship that is making you so unhappy.
posted by RubyScarlet at 1:09 AM on July 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I chose to break up with him because I wanted a different life. And almost as soon as we were done, I got it. My life now is rich and fulfilling; I feel deeply connected to my community, I have a new partner who makes me feel alive and desired, we have tons of mutual friends and a rich, creative, connected life. Financially, things are much tougher for me but the trade-off has been completely worth it. I deeply regret staying with my ex for so long and also causing him so much pain when I broke up with him, but staying with him would have been a terrible decision for both of us. It's absolutely okay to put yourself first, to realise the relationship you're in isn't working anymore, and to try for something better, and you absolutely can have it – but you have to take that first step of getting out of the relationship that is making you so unhappy.
posted by RubyScarlet at 1:09 AM on July 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
There are people who will love you the way you need to be. One day, at the end of a long road, you'll wake up on holiday with your in-laws, the potted plant thriving on a windowsill you haven't yet imagined, cared for by friends you've yet to meet. This is a life you have the power to unlock, if only you trust what your heart is telling you.
posted by wandering zinnia at 4:15 PM on July 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by wandering zinnia at 4:15 PM on July 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was living your psychological self-distrust cycle with a partner I should have left after six months tops but instead I married him, paid for his full time three year studies, paid for his motorcycles, basically let myself be financially abused for 15 years. Friends staged an intervention, a financial advisor told me to secure my home, my family would try to show me the truth. I agreed with their points about my partner. I vented as Elysum describes.
But I stayed.
I broke my foot in five places on Xmas day in 2011. My partner didn’t take me to the hospital. He stayed at the Xmas party dj-ing and snorting coke. He didn’t take me to hospital but instead told me to drive myself home and helped put me into my manual car and said I should still be able to change gears okay. I somehow got the short distance home. He didn’t check on me, he partied for two days.
My time immobilised with broken ribs and broken foot gave me a lot of time to think. I realised I was the same age as my mother was when she got diagnosed with cancer. 43. What if I got the same diagnosis? Did I want the last three years of my life the way I was living? I told myself that when I could walk again, I would step up, and out.
We weren’t even in conflict or pain when I told him that his future life required him to move out, and that I was done.
So long story short, I realised my life could be short and I could die in a miserable relationship.
posted by honey-barbara at 6:00 AM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
But I stayed.
I broke my foot in five places on Xmas day in 2011. My partner didn’t take me to the hospital. He stayed at the Xmas party dj-ing and snorting coke. He didn’t take me to hospital but instead told me to drive myself home and helped put me into my manual car and said I should still be able to change gears okay. I somehow got the short distance home. He didn’t check on me, he partied for two days.
My time immobilised with broken ribs and broken foot gave me a lot of time to think. I realised I was the same age as my mother was when she got diagnosed with cancer. 43. What if I got the same diagnosis? Did I want the last three years of my life the way I was living? I told myself that when I could walk again, I would step up, and out.
We weren’t even in conflict or pain when I told him that his future life required him to move out, and that I was done.
So long story short, I realised my life could be short and I could die in a miserable relationship.
posted by honey-barbara at 6:00 AM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
I broke up with someone I loved but never felt truly comfortable with. I pined after that person for a couple years, felt lots of pangs about them. Met someone else great, but still thought about the first person quite a lot. Then realized the great person was who I wanted to be with, moved in, got committed, had awesome kids and embarked upon a lovely life. I just noticed that the ex's bday had passed and didn't feel a pang about it.
What happens is that you eventually move on and find a better fit and feel great about it.
How do you know it's time to leave? Well in your case you pour your heart out to strangers on the internet who sing to you in shockingly consistent 100-part harmony that your relationship is a toxic mess. That might be a good clue?
Get the hell outta that mess! Rooting for you, for real.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:10 AM on August 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
What happens is that you eventually move on and find a better fit and feel great about it.
How do you know it's time to leave? Well in your case you pour your heart out to strangers on the internet who sing to you in shockingly consistent 100-part harmony that your relationship is a toxic mess. That might be a good clue?
Get the hell outta that mess! Rooting for you, for real.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:10 AM on August 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
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Okay. But break up with him. You know you want to. Be brave.
posted by rhonzo at 2:35 PM on July 17, 2023 [71 favorites]