Introverted? Or socially anxious?
June 15, 2023 11:52 AM Subscribe
Help me parse the difference between introversion and social anxiety. And the difference between extroversion and confidence. Or tell me if these aren't particularly useful concepts.
I have googled around for these terms and found the pop psychology articles, so I'm looking more for how people are using these terms right now and what they mean by them. I have a few friends who describe themselves as introverts because, they say, they are intimidated by some people and feel insecure in some social situations. These are folks who are incredibly outgoing and chatty with me and other friends, who seem to relish in being around other people, and one in particular who seems to enjoy attention in certain settings. People can define themselves how they want, but are you all noticing that people sometimes call themselves introverts when really they are experiencing insecurities and social anxiety?
Extroverts aren't inherently confident, but certainly a confident person can seem even more outgoing and extroverted. But even an extrovert can be socially anxious. Right?
I have googled around for these terms and found the pop psychology articles, so I'm looking more for how people are using these terms right now and what they mean by them. I have a few friends who describe themselves as introverts because, they say, they are intimidated by some people and feel insecure in some social situations. These are folks who are incredibly outgoing and chatty with me and other friends, who seem to relish in being around other people, and one in particular who seems to enjoy attention in certain settings. People can define themselves how they want, but are you all noticing that people sometimes call themselves introverts when really they are experiencing insecurities and social anxiety?
Extroverts aren't inherently confident, but certainly a confident person can seem even more outgoing and extroverted. But even an extrovert can be socially anxious. Right?
Best answer: As you're seeing, people use these terms in a variety of different ways, so I'm not sure the distinction you're looking for exists meaningfully anymore. Or that it's useful to contradict someone's self-characterization as one or the other based on how you see them acting with you, which may or may not have anything to do with how they approach other situations.
But for whatever it's worth: I think of introversion and extroversion as being about how people "recharge" their internal batteries. An extrovert feels energized and recharged from being with other people. (About which I can say nothing more because it's completely incomprehensible to me.) An introvert recharges their batteries more through alone time or perhaps one-on-one time with a small number of close people. That doesn't mean they can't be outgoing and chatty - but it may mean they go home from that experience drained and need a lot of recovery time afterwards before they're prepared to do anything social again.
Either the introvert or the extrovert might be insecure, socially anxious, and/or confident, depending on the situation they're in.
posted by Stacey at 12:08 PM on June 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
But for whatever it's worth: I think of introversion and extroversion as being about how people "recharge" their internal batteries. An extrovert feels energized and recharged from being with other people. (About which I can say nothing more because it's completely incomprehensible to me.) An introvert recharges their batteries more through alone time or perhaps one-on-one time with a small number of close people. That doesn't mean they can't be outgoing and chatty - but it may mean they go home from that experience drained and need a lot of recovery time afterwards before they're prepared to do anything social again.
Either the introvert or the extrovert might be insecure, socially anxious, and/or confident, depending on the situation they're in.
posted by Stacey at 12:08 PM on June 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
Best answer: If you define an extrovert as a person who generally enjoys and feels energized by social interaction (all the definitions are squishy, but I do think this at least captures a broad type of person), then they absolutely can have social anxiety. My mom does. Give her a context in which she feels comfortable, though, and she will chat away until the cows come home. Just try getting out of the building with her quickly after church!
posted by praemunire at 12:10 PM on June 15, 2023
posted by praemunire at 12:10 PM on June 15, 2023
Best answer: are you all noticing that people sometimes call themselves introverts when really they are experiencing insecurities and social anxiety?
Yes. "Social anxiety" has a stigma attached. "Introversion" does not, and indeed might even be celebrated. Think of the same concepts as applied to something different, like food. I generally like roast beef, but a few years ago I threw up after eating a roast beef sandwich. The sandwich wasn't the reason why I threw up; it just happened to be the last thing I ate. As a result, I stopped eating roast beef sandwiches. My taste buds didn't change. I was just avoiding a stimulus. That's anxiety. But there are a lot of reasons not to eat roast beef sandwiches. Maybe you're a vegetarian. Maybe you just prefer ham or turkey. That's not anxiety. But I could easily say "oh I just like turkey better", too. Do you get my analogy?
posted by kevinbelt at 12:11 PM on June 15, 2023
Yes. "Social anxiety" has a stigma attached. "Introversion" does not, and indeed might even be celebrated. Think of the same concepts as applied to something different, like food. I generally like roast beef, but a few years ago I threw up after eating a roast beef sandwich. The sandwich wasn't the reason why I threw up; it just happened to be the last thing I ate. As a result, I stopped eating roast beef sandwiches. My taste buds didn't change. I was just avoiding a stimulus. That's anxiety. But there are a lot of reasons not to eat roast beef sandwiches. Maybe you're a vegetarian. Maybe you just prefer ham or turkey. That's not anxiety. But I could easily say "oh I just like turkey better", too. Do you get my analogy?
posted by kevinbelt at 12:11 PM on June 15, 2023
Best answer: are you all noticing that people sometimes call themselves introverts when really they are experiencing insecurities and social anxiety?
Oh yeah, I noticed it in myself. I thought I was an introvert for the longest time but no, I'm an extrovert with pretty marked social anxiety.
posted by zsazsa at 12:19 PM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh yeah, I noticed it in myself. I thought I was an introvert for the longest time but no, I'm an extrovert with pretty marked social anxiety.
posted by zsazsa at 12:19 PM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I have long considered myself the opposite: a moderate introvert with not much in the way of social anxiety. It just takes me a lot to recharge. I even work in retail and do a lot of customer interaction but goddamn do I need to go home and stare at my phone or watch something soothing. I also use my bike commute as a way to disengage my brain from the work day.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:02 PM on June 15, 2023
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:02 PM on June 15, 2023
Best answer: The American Psychological Association defines introvert as
Note that, as with all these things, there is no such thing as a complete introvert or a complete extrovert. We’re all a mix.
Social anxiety is not really related to the two, except that it must be a real pain in the ass to be an extrovert who is anxious about people. In my mind that is related to the fact that social anxiety diagnoses are accompanied by alcohol abuse roughly 20% of the time.
As others have noted the concepts of social anxiety and introversion get mixed up a lot in pop culture. Often times they are treated as the same thing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:02 PM on June 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Orientation toward the internal private world of one's self and one's inner thoughts and feelings, rather than toward the outer world of people and things.Extroversion is the reverse.
Note that, as with all these things, there is no such thing as a complete introvert or a complete extrovert. We’re all a mix.
Social anxiety is not really related to the two, except that it must be a real pain in the ass to be an extrovert who is anxious about people. In my mind that is related to the fact that social anxiety diagnoses are accompanied by alcohol abuse roughly 20% of the time.
As others have noted the concepts of social anxiety and introversion get mixed up a lot in pop culture. Often times they are treated as the same thing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:02 PM on June 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: To the question: I find that people confuse and conflate shyness and softspoken-ness with introversion for themselves and others.
Extrovert: Someone who finds people energizing, generally. Prefers being around people.
Introvert: Someone who finds solitude or alone time / quiet time energizing, generally. Prefers smaller, quieter situations or being around fewer people, or none.
A lot of people conflate introversion with being shy, and extroversion with confidence and being outgoing or outspoken. My spouse is extroverted but I wouldn't necessarily say she's always outgoing or confident. But extended alone time is not her jam.
I am not shy in the least, I'm happy to speak up in group situations, I'll give talks to dozens or hundreds of people without much discomfort. (Assuming I am comfortable with the topic, anyway.) I don't do intimidated, per se but I have a lot of social anxiety when around people I care about and worry I'm just being tolerated. But I'll happily be outspoken at work or in groups when I (think I) know my shit and/or care about something a lot.
But my social battery is like an old smartphone. Good for a couple of hours and then needs to be left alone to recharge. Will absolutely drop from 100% to 20% in no time under extended use.
posted by jzb at 1:15 PM on June 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Extrovert: Someone who finds people energizing, generally. Prefers being around people.
Introvert: Someone who finds solitude or alone time / quiet time energizing, generally. Prefers smaller, quieter situations or being around fewer people, or none.
A lot of people conflate introversion with being shy, and extroversion with confidence and being outgoing or outspoken. My spouse is extroverted but I wouldn't necessarily say she's always outgoing or confident. But extended alone time is not her jam.
I am not shy in the least, I'm happy to speak up in group situations, I'll give talks to dozens or hundreds of people without much discomfort. (Assuming I am comfortable with the topic, anyway.) I don't do intimidated, per se but I have a lot of social anxiety when around people I care about and worry I'm just being tolerated. But I'll happily be outspoken at work or in groups when I (think I) know my shit and/or care about something a lot.
But my social battery is like an old smartphone. Good for a couple of hours and then needs to be left alone to recharge. Will absolutely drop from 100% to 20% in no time under extended use.
posted by jzb at 1:15 PM on June 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I agree with jzb above. Introversion/extroversion is about what setting makes you feel more energized and engaged (or conversely, what settings make you feel like they are taking away your energy).
Social anxiety is separate. Both extroverts and introverts can experience social anxiety. An extrovert with social anxiety might, for example, enjoy being around families and friends but dislike networking or big events with strangers.
Agree that it’s more socially acceptable to say that you’re an introvert than you have social anxiety. It feels rude to say “being with you is exhausting” and less rude to say “I’m uncomfortable around people because I have social anxiety.”
posted by kat518 at 1:26 PM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Social anxiety is separate. Both extroverts and introverts can experience social anxiety. An extrovert with social anxiety might, for example, enjoy being around families and friends but dislike networking or big events with strangers.
Agree that it’s more socially acceptable to say that you’re an introvert than you have social anxiety. It feels rude to say “being with you is exhausting” and less rude to say “I’m uncomfortable around people because I have social anxiety.”
posted by kat518 at 1:26 PM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I think I am someone in whom the distinction is very obvious so all I can do is speak for myself. I present as confident (and I am confident). This is something that people comment on. I'm not shy at all - I easily chat to people and often enjoy social situations, as long as they are brief. I don't tend to analyse social situations too much, though of course I do to some extent. I'm a teacher and interact with people all day in my job, and I like them and am very rarely anxious. HOWEVER, I would almost always rather be by myself, doing my own thing. In the weekends, any social engagement is a chore and I would rather be at home pottering around and thinking my own thoughts. For example, I have a social obligation tonight and people I like are going, but I really would rather just go home and hang out by myself.
posted by thereader at 3:19 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by thereader at 3:19 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Hmm, I am a person who would describe myself as both introverted and socially anxious who probably appears outgoing and chatty when I am comfortable among friends. I think these qualities are defined by interior experience, so you can't necessarily gauge them for other people based on what you see from the outside.
My introversion shows up as happily spending large chunks of time alone. Wearying of being with other people after a time, even those I love most.
My social anxiety shows up as feeling scared of and in social interactions. It rarely is a factor in spending time with friends, though it IS a factor in making the plans to spend time with them, I can get nervous and second-guessy about even sending a text invite for coffee, though once we’ve made it to the café I’m ok and seem (and AM) confident and talkative.
My social anxiety especially shows up with people who are strangers or only acquaintances. Then I can get tongue-tied, worry about what to say, worry that nobody wants to talk to me. Large gatherings of strangers with no planned activities besides mingling are the worst. I can’t quite even imagine what it is like not to feel social anxiety in a situation like that.
I can certainly push past the social anxiety, and indeed doing so has probably been the defining work of my life, but it takes energy and bravery. That's why I have gotten to the point where I have friends that I don't feel it with and who don't know it was there in the first place.
posted by Jenny'sCricket at 4:23 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
My introversion shows up as happily spending large chunks of time alone. Wearying of being with other people after a time, even those I love most.
My social anxiety shows up as feeling scared of and in social interactions. It rarely is a factor in spending time with friends, though it IS a factor in making the plans to spend time with them, I can get nervous and second-guessy about even sending a text invite for coffee, though once we’ve made it to the café I’m ok and seem (and AM) confident and talkative.
My social anxiety especially shows up with people who are strangers or only acquaintances. Then I can get tongue-tied, worry about what to say, worry that nobody wants to talk to me. Large gatherings of strangers with no planned activities besides mingling are the worst. I can’t quite even imagine what it is like not to feel social anxiety in a situation like that.
I can certainly push past the social anxiety, and indeed doing so has probably been the defining work of my life, but it takes energy and bravery. That's why I have gotten to the point where I have friends that I don't feel it with and who don't know it was there in the first place.
posted by Jenny'sCricket at 4:23 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: People can be socially confident and gregarious introverts. Introverts forced to spend more time than they want with people might become quieter and zone out so can be context dependent.
People can be shy, quiet, or anxious extroverts.
These folks might be less common than the reverse, but the way you're describing people using the term is not unusual to me.
posted by lookoutbelow at 7:14 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
People can be shy, quiet, or anxious extroverts.
These folks might be less common than the reverse, but the way you're describing people using the term is not unusual to me.
posted by lookoutbelow at 7:14 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It's not really possible to compare introversion and social anxiety in this way.
It's a bit like asking "is that blue, or is it the sky?"
Introversion is not a condition with criteria you can be diagnosed with, it's a descriptive term people use in different ways.
Social anxiety is a condition with specific criteria that you can be diagnosed with.
An example of a question that is possible to answer is how to tell the difference between social anxiety and autism.
posted by Zumbador at 10:44 PM on June 15, 2023
It's a bit like asking "is that blue, or is it the sky?"
Introversion is not a condition with criteria you can be diagnosed with, it's a descriptive term people use in different ways.
Social anxiety is a condition with specific criteria that you can be diagnosed with.
An example of a question that is possible to answer is how to tell the difference between social anxiety and autism.
posted by Zumbador at 10:44 PM on June 15, 2023
Best answer: I've always thought of myself as introverted and I've also struggled with social anxiety (although much less as I've gotten older/gotten more self aware), but over the past couple of years I've come to realize it's not as simple for me as "I recharge by being alone" - it's more like, "I need to maintain balance between spending time alone and spending time with others, and I seem to skew more toward the 'time alone' side than average."
When I worked in a public-facing in-person job and had roommates or a live-in partner, I needed to prioritize alone time to recharge. Nowadays I work from home doing mostly independent knowledge work and I live by myself, and I find I need to prioritize spending time with other people.
My social anxiety interacted badly with my introversion when I was younger - I was less inclined to participate in social events because of a combination of introversion (just not that interested) and social anxiety (terrified) but then that would also feed into my social anxiety that people would think I was weird and wrong for spending time by myself/"not having any friends". Real vicious cycle stuff.
Nowadays I'm also very gregarious, and generally comfortable talking to strangers/casual acquaintances/etc. This can actually be a coping strategy for the anxiety (standing awkwardly in the corner is way more anxiety-inducing for me than pursuing a "task" like "get to know $X's new boyfriend" or "find out what to do and see in $CITY since $Y just got back from a trip there"), and likewise with the introversion, if I'm going to spend time around people I want it to be good times, to the extent possible.
posted by mskyle at 5:23 AM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
When I worked in a public-facing in-person job and had roommates or a live-in partner, I needed to prioritize alone time to recharge. Nowadays I work from home doing mostly independent knowledge work and I live by myself, and I find I need to prioritize spending time with other people.
My social anxiety interacted badly with my introversion when I was younger - I was less inclined to participate in social events because of a combination of introversion (just not that interested) and social anxiety (terrified) but then that would also feed into my social anxiety that people would think I was weird and wrong for spending time by myself/"not having any friends". Real vicious cycle stuff.
Nowadays I'm also very gregarious, and generally comfortable talking to strangers/casual acquaintances/etc. This can actually be a coping strategy for the anxiety (standing awkwardly in the corner is way more anxiety-inducing for me than pursuing a "task" like "get to know $X's new boyfriend" or "find out what to do and see in $CITY since $Y just got back from a trip there"), and likewise with the introversion, if I'm going to spend time around people I want it to be good times, to the extent possible.
posted by mskyle at 5:23 AM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: You all are awesome. Thanks so much for giving so much richness and nuance to this. I particularly appreciate hearing from and about the confident introverts and the gregarious introverts and the anxious extroverts.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:40 AM on June 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 10:40 AM on June 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
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We've had enough "caring for your introvert" sort of popularization of the concept in the last 15 or so years that someone can self describe as an introvert in a way that 1) discloses zero stigmatizing mental health status and 2) gently gets them the alone time they need.
Introvert/Extrovert is sorta loosely/poorly defined generally to mean all whole host of symptoms (for lack of a better word) of personal interaction. The reality is most people are somewhere in between the two poles.
As a severe (SEVERE*) introvert who is extremely confident and experiences no social anxiety, I obviously take issue personally with the loose way a lot of behavior is ascribed to the term. But I don't own the word, so there's not much I can do about that.
*By which I mean I am happiest when I'm alone. I like being around my friends, can hold conversations just fine, have pretty good social intelligence. But if I don't get regular, full complete days entirely to myself where I don't have to even see another person (even my dogs get the bare minimum), I do feel like I'm dying and that's barely overstating it.
Anyway yes in conclusion I do believe people use the word introvert as a stand in for anxiety often, but no one should have to disclose a health condition just to have their needs met. And unlike "I need my insulin," people get their feelings hurt when what you really need is "I don't want to see you right now."
posted by phunniemee at 12:08 PM on June 15, 2023 [30 favorites]