How do I spot & avoid this type of vindictive behavior?
April 30, 2023 6:02 AM Subscribe
I'm having a problem with a friend-turned-enemy. My friend "Dot" made a poor decision and tried to enlist my help in hiding it. I refused, and now she has gone scorched-earth. I'd like help in understanding this behavior pattern so I can avoid befriending people like this in the future.
Dot is someone I've known for years. We had a similar professional background up until a few years ago. She is very ambitious and has chosen to take on more and more responsibility (promotions, board positions), even though it means working around the clock. I chose work-life balance and have been scaling down my work hours.
She has always been gossipy and occasionally said negative things about people behind their backs but pretended to like them to their face. I didn't enjoy that, but I just let it go because it was usually about people I didn't like either.
(I've altered a couple details below to protect my privacy.) There's a well-regarded nonprofit organization in our community. I volunteer there in one division, and have done so for years. The nonprofit is understaffed, and they've come to rely on me for various aspects of this division even though I'm just a volunteer. Last year, Dot became a board member of the nonprofit. For a while, it was fun having the shared interest of this nonprofit. She seemed to occasionally take enjoyment from being "above" me since she's a board member and I'm a regular volunteer. I didn't care since it's for a good cause.
Recently I discovered that she made a decision that will damage my area of the nonprofit. In talking to her, it seems that she didn't understand the decision and didn't want to admit to her ignorance, so she plunged ahead and forced a harmful decision.
I explained the consequences to her, and asked her to reconsider. She said that would make her look weak and asked me to go along with it. She offered to take me on a lavish girls trip, which felt like a semi-bribe to me. I refused. We couldn't reach an agreement, and I alerted other leaders in the nonprofit about the problem. They asked me to explain the situation to a couple of the other board members, and I did.
Dot became aghast. She badmouthed me to many others, saying that I "went off the deep end" and that she should never have trusted me because others have said that I'll "go off the rails" sooner or later. She told our mutual acquaintances that I am a terrible person who wants to sabotage her, and said that she's furious with me. She sent me a legal letter accusing me of libel.
The organization didn't want to offend her, so they're going to implement her decision even though it's harmful. Everyone at the org is still treating her with great respect. I've become semi-ostracized, and I'll probably wrap up my volunteering and go spend time on a different hobby instead. Even though Dot got what she wanted, she's continuing to badmouth me to mutual acquaintances.
I'm sure this will blow over eventually. I'd like to understand Dot's mentality better, so I can avoid people like this in the future.
1. What thought processes would lead her to lash out to this degree? Many of my other friends would've said, "My bad, I didn't really understand what I was doing at the time. Let's fix it now." Or they might be embarrassed and avoid me for a while, but not be this vengeful. Is Dot feeling impostor syndrome and thinking that she's going to be exposed as a fraud? Or does she have an idea that everyone must be above or below everyone else in a status hierarchy, and she thought she was "above" me, so now she's putting me in my place?
2. What are the red flags, so I can avoid this? Gossipy / two-faced behavior? Preferring to be surrounded by yes-men? Valuing societal markers of success?
Dot is someone I've known for years. We had a similar professional background up until a few years ago. She is very ambitious and has chosen to take on more and more responsibility (promotions, board positions), even though it means working around the clock. I chose work-life balance and have been scaling down my work hours.
She has always been gossipy and occasionally said negative things about people behind their backs but pretended to like them to their face. I didn't enjoy that, but I just let it go because it was usually about people I didn't like either.
(I've altered a couple details below to protect my privacy.) There's a well-regarded nonprofit organization in our community. I volunteer there in one division, and have done so for years. The nonprofit is understaffed, and they've come to rely on me for various aspects of this division even though I'm just a volunteer. Last year, Dot became a board member of the nonprofit. For a while, it was fun having the shared interest of this nonprofit. She seemed to occasionally take enjoyment from being "above" me since she's a board member and I'm a regular volunteer. I didn't care since it's for a good cause.
Recently I discovered that she made a decision that will damage my area of the nonprofit. In talking to her, it seems that she didn't understand the decision and didn't want to admit to her ignorance, so she plunged ahead and forced a harmful decision.
I explained the consequences to her, and asked her to reconsider. She said that would make her look weak and asked me to go along with it. She offered to take me on a lavish girls trip, which felt like a semi-bribe to me. I refused. We couldn't reach an agreement, and I alerted other leaders in the nonprofit about the problem. They asked me to explain the situation to a couple of the other board members, and I did.
Dot became aghast. She badmouthed me to many others, saying that I "went off the deep end" and that she should never have trusted me because others have said that I'll "go off the rails" sooner or later. She told our mutual acquaintances that I am a terrible person who wants to sabotage her, and said that she's furious with me. She sent me a legal letter accusing me of libel.
The organization didn't want to offend her, so they're going to implement her decision even though it's harmful. Everyone at the org is still treating her with great respect. I've become semi-ostracized, and I'll probably wrap up my volunteering and go spend time on a different hobby instead. Even though Dot got what she wanted, she's continuing to badmouth me to mutual acquaintances.
I'm sure this will blow over eventually. I'd like to understand Dot's mentality better, so I can avoid people like this in the future.
1. What thought processes would lead her to lash out to this degree? Many of my other friends would've said, "My bad, I didn't really understand what I was doing at the time. Let's fix it now." Or they might be embarrassed and avoid me for a while, but not be this vengeful. Is Dot feeling impostor syndrome and thinking that she's going to be exposed as a fraud? Or does she have an idea that everyone must be above or below everyone else in a status hierarchy, and she thought she was "above" me, so now she's putting me in my place?
2. What are the red flags, so I can avoid this? Gossipy / two-faced behavior? Preferring to be surrounded by yes-men? Valuing societal markers of success?
Yes, what I found odd about this situation is that you made a choice to talk about Dot behind her back to multiple members of the organization which was demeaning her decision. You’re doing the very thing that you don’t like about Dot.
She sounds difficult but you also should recognize your choices which led you here.
What I would do moving forward is both avoid people AND situations that are political. I also think it’s worth some self reflection about what you did to contribute as well.
posted by pando11 at 6:10 AM on April 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
She sounds difficult but you also should recognize your choices which led you here.
What I would do moving forward is both avoid people AND situations that are political. I also think it’s worth some self reflection about what you did to contribute as well.
posted by pando11 at 6:10 AM on April 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
She got angry because you went behind her back to complain about her decision. I'm not sure what kind of harm the decision would bring, and if it would have been something disastrous I would understand your actions somewhat. But given that the organization has chosen to implement it, it seems unclear whether that's true.
If it were a decision I personally didn't agree with as a volunteer but a friend in a higher position was making, I don't think I would go behind their back to complain. Not unless it was something awful and egregious. Which maybe it was. But it seems pretty clear why she'd be upset either way, rightly or wrongly.
posted by bearette at 6:19 AM on April 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
If it were a decision I personally didn't agree with as a volunteer but a friend in a higher position was making, I don't think I would go behind their back to complain. Not unless it was something awful and egregious. Which maybe it was. But it seems pretty clear why she'd be upset either way, rightly or wrongly.
posted by bearette at 6:19 AM on April 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I'm really shocked that people are equating what you did (alert the board to a problem) with what Dot is doing (attack you to others as a person, saying she knew you'd go "off the rails," basically character assassination), though I agree it probably wasn't a good idea to talk to the board without at least telling her you were going to since you were friends. It's kind of sounding like that wouldn't have gone well either though.
I think her gossip is the only thing you've given us as a possible red flag. I guess whether it's worth dropping someone over would depend, to me, on the gossip. Was it the vicious kind she's now using against you? If so, yeah, that would be the indication that this isn't a good person.
I don't think her ambition in itself would be a red flag, but again, it would depend on whether she's just working harder than you personally want to (I'm with you on that) or you could see that she's willing to harm others to pursue her career interests.
This really sucks, and I'm sorry.
posted by FencingGal at 6:33 AM on April 30, 2023 [31 favorites]
I think her gossip is the only thing you've given us as a possible red flag. I guess whether it's worth dropping someone over would depend, to me, on the gossip. Was it the vicious kind she's now using against you? If so, yeah, that would be the indication that this isn't a good person.
I don't think her ambition in itself would be a red flag, but again, it would depend on whether she's just working harder than you personally want to (I'm with you on that) or you could see that she's willing to harm others to pursue her career interests.
This really sucks, and I'm sorry.
posted by FencingGal at 6:33 AM on April 30, 2023 [31 favorites]
Best answer: The thing I'd be thinking about very hard is this: what information do you have, after years of acquaintance, about Dot's values? What does she prioritize? Where won't she compromise? If those things are, like, "my financial security" and "my career success" then, hey, this outcome was maybe foreseeable. I'm guessing they're not "empathy and friendship" and "scrupulous honesty."
It's fine to have friends who don't entirely align with your values, but it's very important to know where those misalignments are, because that's where the friendship-breaking conflicts can arise.
posted by restless_nomad at 6:39 AM on April 30, 2023 [18 favorites]
It's fine to have friends who don't entirely align with your values, but it's very important to know where those misalignments are, because that's where the friendship-breaking conflicts can arise.
posted by restless_nomad at 6:39 AM on April 30, 2023 [18 favorites]
The point of no return in your story is the point at which she offered you the trip. That was a clear indicator that she had escalated the stakes significantly. At that point, the thing to do is to decide whether or not this is the hill you also want to die on and then act accordingly accepting that you may not win. Your answer to the situational red flags is being really alive to the stakes that someone else is putting on a decision or course of action.
Lots of people don't like office or organisational politics. It sounds from your questions and your surprise at the outcome you experienced that you either don't like it or don't have a great deal of experience in doing organisational politics successfully. Your answer to the personal red flags is I suspect that you should not make friends with people who both rise to the top of organisations you are involved in and you perceive as two faced.
Many organisations are more like the court intrigues of Henry VIII than seems reasonable. At least nowadays you just get hounded out rather than beheaded.
posted by plonkee at 6:41 AM on April 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
Lots of people don't like office or organisational politics. It sounds from your questions and your surprise at the outcome you experienced that you either don't like it or don't have a great deal of experience in doing organisational politics successfully. Your answer to the personal red flags is I suspect that you should not make friends with people who both rise to the top of organisations you are involved in and you perceive as two faced.
Many organisations are more like the court intrigues of Henry VIII than seems reasonable. At least nowadays you just get hounded out rather than beheaded.
posted by plonkee at 6:41 AM on April 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think you’ve found yourself at the intersection of two issues:
1. Many people value friendship over work. For you to place the well-being of the organization over your personal relationship with Dot looks to her like a vicious personal attack. This also inclines any of her friends on the board and in the organization to pretend to agree with her rather than confront her for the good of the org. Note that people don’t necessarily realize they feel this way, but their actions are consistent with these values.
2. Progressive organizations struggle to find a mode of interaction between zero conflict and nuclear war. People either pretend to like everyone and agree on everything or drive each other out of the organization with bitter recriminations and smear campaigns. It is hard to foster a culture where the org can engage in thoughtful debate over strongly held beliefs. Once you expressed firm disagreement with Dot’s plan, conflict avoidance was no longer possible and the dial clicked over to the scorched earth setting.
posted by Ptrin at 7:08 AM on April 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
1. Many people value friendship over work. For you to place the well-being of the organization over your personal relationship with Dot looks to her like a vicious personal attack. This also inclines any of her friends on the board and in the organization to pretend to agree with her rather than confront her for the good of the org. Note that people don’t necessarily realize they feel this way, but their actions are consistent with these values.
2. Progressive organizations struggle to find a mode of interaction between zero conflict and nuclear war. People either pretend to like everyone and agree on everything or drive each other out of the organization with bitter recriminations and smear campaigns. It is hard to foster a culture where the org can engage in thoughtful debate over strongly held beliefs. Once you expressed firm disagreement with Dot’s plan, conflict avoidance was no longer possible and the dial clicked over to the scorched earth setting.
posted by Ptrin at 7:08 AM on April 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
To answer your question, although the gossip parts were an early indication, the point at which I would have identified Dot as a problem in your story was were she was aware of an issue but didn’t want to address it because it would make her look weak.
Values-based leadership is the opposite. A really solid values-led leader addresses issues even if it makes them look bad.
I think if you look back to earlier relationship with Dot you’ll probably find milder but similar moments.
However…maybe not. Sometimes friendships are fine until they are tested. That’s just a painful reality and you can’t necessarily avoid it by becoming the perfect detective.
Weirdly, in your situation I think you would have had a better outcome by trusting other people in your volunteer org more. If you had been able to consult with other people about the situation and maybe have one of them raise your concern with the board (because as the results were impacting on “your” area, you maybe weren’t likely to be perceived as disinterested, plus your relationship with Dot), there might have been a solution where Dot could save face and still have a good discussion with the board. Dot ideally would have slowed down and collaborated more before the first decision. I think that would have helped you too.
So I guess in summary - look for values and collaboration in your friends, but what you control is your ability to work that way.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:11 AM on April 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
Values-based leadership is the opposite. A really solid values-led leader addresses issues even if it makes them look bad.
I think if you look back to earlier relationship with Dot you’ll probably find milder but similar moments.
However…maybe not. Sometimes friendships are fine until they are tested. That’s just a painful reality and you can’t necessarily avoid it by becoming the perfect detective.
Weirdly, in your situation I think you would have had a better outcome by trusting other people in your volunteer org more. If you had been able to consult with other people about the situation and maybe have one of them raise your concern with the board (because as the results were impacting on “your” area, you maybe weren’t likely to be perceived as disinterested, plus your relationship with Dot), there might have been a solution where Dot could save face and still have a good discussion with the board. Dot ideally would have slowed down and collaborated more before the first decision. I think that would have helped you too.
So I guess in summary - look for values and collaboration in your friends, but what you control is your ability to work that way.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:11 AM on April 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
Is Dot feeling impostor syndrome and thinking that she's going to be exposed as a fraud? Or does she have an idea that everyone must be above or below everyone else in a status hierarchy...
This is my guess based on what you wrote. I have found that some people have very little tolerance for any challenges to their authority. I don't think the gossip is necessarily an indication - the people I've experienced this with didn't gossip, and I've known people who gossiped but could also take constructive criticism.
While it's not quite the same, I think a good indicator is noticing how people react when things don't go their way or don't go according to plan. Is their reaction closer to flipping out, or having a laugh at their bad luck and then figuring out a solution? I agree with others that your clue was when she equated recognizing a mistake and correcting it with "looking weak." Because another way of looking at it would have been "Everyone makes mistakes, and a strong leader is able to recognize their own for the good of the group."
posted by coffeecat at 7:19 AM on April 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is my guess based on what you wrote. I have found that some people have very little tolerance for any challenges to their authority. I don't think the gossip is necessarily an indication - the people I've experienced this with didn't gossip, and I've known people who gossiped but could also take constructive criticism.
While it's not quite the same, I think a good indicator is noticing how people react when things don't go their way or don't go according to plan. Is their reaction closer to flipping out, or having a laugh at their bad luck and then figuring out a solution? I agree with others that your clue was when she equated recognizing a mistake and correcting it with "looking weak." Because another way of looking at it would have been "Everyone makes mistakes, and a strong leader is able to recognize their own for the good of the group."
posted by coffeecat at 7:19 AM on April 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Gossipy / two-faced behavior? Preferring to be surrounded by yes-men?
These aren't usually great signs. For your particular situation, especially the preference for yes-men would have been a key indicator that she wasn't going to like any push back. If she tended to gossip about people who disagreed with her while staying nice to their face, that's also a sign she could do the same to you if you were on opposite sides of an issue.
I will say, she also seems to have directly told you that she felt unable to back down without looking weak (on preview seconding warriorqueen). So when you decided to push back, her reaction shouldn't have been a surprise. And her methods seem to be in line with what you've seen her do to other people. So one lesson may be to assume you won't be an exception to the typical way someone treats others.
To be clear, I'm not saying you were wrong to push back or that the way you did it was right or wrong. But if someone tells you they'll look weak if they back down, that means 1) they're more concerned with appearing infallible and 2) they likely won't passively sit by while they're original decision is reversed by someone else.
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:23 AM on April 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
These aren't usually great signs. For your particular situation, especially the preference for yes-men would have been a key indicator that she wasn't going to like any push back. If she tended to gossip about people who disagreed with her while staying nice to their face, that's also a sign she could do the same to you if you were on opposite sides of an issue.
I will say, she also seems to have directly told you that she felt unable to back down without looking weak (on preview seconding warriorqueen). So when you decided to push back, her reaction shouldn't have been a surprise. And her methods seem to be in line with what you've seen her do to other people. So one lesson may be to assume you won't be an exception to the typical way someone treats others.
To be clear, I'm not saying you were wrong to push back or that the way you did it was right or wrong. But if someone tells you they'll look weak if they back down, that means 1) they're more concerned with appearing infallible and 2) they likely won't passively sit by while they're original decision is reversed by someone else.
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:23 AM on April 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
The last, biggest red flag you missed was the offer of the girls' trip after you pointed out the problem with her plan. That's where she showed you that the welfare of the organization wasn't remotely her priority (if it had been, then she would have at least insisted that her plan was actually fine.) Her priority was to not admit she had a bad plan and not look weak. She even told you so. And then you went ahead and told everyone she had a bad plan. She was never going to let that go unpunished.
There are people who are skilled enough at flattery, reputation management, etc. that they can influence others (as you tried to influence her, unsuccessfully) without making them feel confronted or "found out." That's a very valuable political skill. I'm terrible at it myself, so I don't have a lot of advice on that front, but keep your eyes open for folks who are good at it, and learn from them going forward.
And yeah, always assume that someone who gossips TO you will always gossip ABOUT you. Always.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:31 AM on April 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
There are people who are skilled enough at flattery, reputation management, etc. that they can influence others (as you tried to influence her, unsuccessfully) without making them feel confronted or "found out." That's a very valuable political skill. I'm terrible at it myself, so I don't have a lot of advice on that front, but keep your eyes open for folks who are good at it, and learn from them going forward.
And yeah, always assume that someone who gossips TO you will always gossip ABOUT you. Always.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:31 AM on April 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
As for red flags I would say the gossipy behavior might be one. Also, is Dot ever wrong? How has she reacted when you disagreed with her in the past? How does she react when other people have disagreed with her? How does she talk about people who she likes? Does she seem to genuinely like other people? Is everyone else somehow not as smart as her? There were probably a lot of other signs but maybe they were masked by your mutual dislike of others or shared interests or beliefs in other areas.
posted by mokeydraws at 8:36 AM on April 30, 2023
posted by mokeydraws at 8:36 AM on April 30, 2023
Your question makes sense, but I think it's rooted in the need to control something that's out of your control: another person's behavior.
Reading between the lines, I think you decided not to warn Dot that you'd tell others about her decision because you knew it wouldn't help, and would draw her ire.
She's the one who put you in an impossible situation. She forced you to choose between loyalty to her, and to your own principles.
The fact that your choice was right according to your own principles (except, maybe, not warning her that you would speak up) doesn't mean that there are no consequences.
Both of you acted according to what seems to each of you to be the obviously right thing.
If you made a mistake, it was to assume that what you considere to be right, is objectively right, therefore other people will eventually come around to your way of thinking.
You may be objectively right, but that doesn't mean that others will ever acknowledge that or even agree.
If there's a lesson to be learnt here it's in how you temper your expectations of others. Believe them when they show you what their values are.
posted by Zumbador at 8:36 AM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Reading between the lines, I think you decided not to warn Dot that you'd tell others about her decision because you knew it wouldn't help, and would draw her ire.
She's the one who put you in an impossible situation. She forced you to choose between loyalty to her, and to your own principles.
The fact that your choice was right according to your own principles (except, maybe, not warning her that you would speak up) doesn't mean that there are no consequences.
Both of you acted according to what seems to each of you to be the obviously right thing.
If you made a mistake, it was to assume that what you considere to be right, is objectively right, therefore other people will eventually come around to your way of thinking.
You may be objectively right, but that doesn't mean that others will ever acknowledge that or even agree.
If there's a lesson to be learnt here it's in how you temper your expectations of others. Believe them when they show you what their values are.
posted by Zumbador at 8:36 AM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for the answers so far. To clarify, I'm looking for red flags earlier in the friendship, not in this specific incident about the nonprofit. I'd like to avoid spending years on a friendship and have it turn out like this.
Also, in this incident, I knew Dot would be angry when I raised objections to other leaders in the org (and I'm not too surprised that I got pushed out), but I underestimated the level of her vindictiveness. Months later, she is still furious and lashing out. I also thought it was a bit extreme for her to hire a lawyer to threaten to sue me for libel (that's the legal letter I mentioned).
I appreciate the answers so far and future answers.
posted by cheesecake at 8:37 AM on April 30, 2023
Also, in this incident, I knew Dot would be angry when I raised objections to other leaders in the org (and I'm not too surprised that I got pushed out), but I underestimated the level of her vindictiveness. Months later, she is still furious and lashing out. I also thought it was a bit extreme for her to hire a lawyer to threaten to sue me for libel (that's the legal letter I mentioned).
I appreciate the answers so far and future answers.
posted by cheesecake at 8:37 AM on April 30, 2023
Best answer: The red flags are whenever people are not acting in ways that are consistent with values - values they claim to have or share. In your case, the values of the organisation they are paid to represent. But there must have been other indicators that her values were not your values. You mentioned different priorities, a focus on perception etc. The best you can do is be alert to signs that there is a lack of consistency and follow through.
posted by koahiatamadl at 8:44 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by koahiatamadl at 8:44 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
The level of vindictiveness you are describing seems incredibly unusual to me unless your description of your actions is wildly understating what you did (and even then I think it seems disproportionate and probably a poor use of resources). The only leading indicator I can think of for this kind of thing is very black and white thinking ("splitting") about people - particularly if Dot had been friendly with someone and then seemed to turn quickly and think that they are terribly, irredeemably bad.
posted by plonkee at 9:05 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 9:05 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: If their major life setbacks are always blamed on crazy ex partners, jealous ex friends, conniving ex coworkers, vindictive customs officers…etc. If they flatter you in comparisons to other associates. These people require cliques to give them social momentum, which is why they value personal loyalty above all else. At the far end of the spectrum on this…after you prove loyalty or at least demonstrate that you have a compliant nature (like say, by accepting a trip in return for your silence) then you might be made privy to something like a minor (and fun!) bit of misleading expense account reporting. From that point on, it’s made clear that if they get in trouble, you'd be implicated, so you wind up bound to and controlled by this person.
posted by brachiopod at 9:26 AM on April 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by brachiopod at 9:26 AM on April 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
She has always been gossipy and occasionally said negative things about people behind their backs but pretended to like them to their face. I didn't enjoy that, but I just let it go because it was usually about people I didn't like either.
These are pretty clear early warning signs.
If someone behaves this way towards others, you can assume they will eventually do it to you too. If someone puts this much time into pretending to like people they despise so that they can get them to do what they want, you can assume they will eventually be manipulative towards you too. If someone consistently values appearances over truth, you can assume they will not hesitate to be dishonest to or about you too.
If there's a part of you that enjoys being on the inside of a mean clique, or craves the approval of cruel and powerful people, then work on that part of yourself. Otherwise, you will remain very vulnerable to people like this.
posted by ourobouros at 9:33 AM on April 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
These are pretty clear early warning signs.
If someone behaves this way towards others, you can assume they will eventually do it to you too. If someone puts this much time into pretending to like people they despise so that they can get them to do what they want, you can assume they will eventually be manipulative towards you too. If someone consistently values appearances over truth, you can assume they will not hesitate to be dishonest to or about you too.
If there's a part of you that enjoys being on the inside of a mean clique, or craves the approval of cruel and powerful people, then work on that part of yourself. Otherwise, you will remain very vulnerable to people like this.
posted by ourobouros at 9:33 AM on April 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: To focus on the core of the question - the red flag for people like this is that they're your best friend right up until you say no to them over something. And their response will often be just as drastic regardless of how important the situation is.
Sadly if you're an agreeable person who rolls with the punches, or a bit of a people pleaser, you can end up with one of these people in your friend circle without even realising until you stand up for yourself. And you'll get a disproportionately aggressive response because not only did you say "no", you were someone they didn't think was a threat.
They think that the value of a person is the extent to which they give way to them: people who agree with them, do them favours and say "yes" are good people. People who contradict them or say "no" are bad people.
posted by Lorc at 10:20 AM on April 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
Sadly if you're an agreeable person who rolls with the punches, or a bit of a people pleaser, you can end up with one of these people in your friend circle without even realising until you stand up for yourself. And you'll get a disproportionately aggressive response because not only did you say "no", you were someone they didn't think was a threat.
They think that the value of a person is the extent to which they give way to them: people who agree with them, do them favours and say "yes" are good people. People who contradict them or say "no" are bad people.
posted by Lorc at 10:20 AM on April 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
The red flag is "caring about being personally embarrassed so much". She will continue to do a thing she knows is harmful to the org, and torch a personal friendship, so she doesn't have to admit she was wrong to her board buddies. And every time she lays eyes on you, she's reminded of that embarrassment, even though she won in the end. As long as you're around, you could remind her fellow board members of that time she was wrong, and she can't stand it.
Look for people who know how to say "oh, hey I assumed incorrectly" or "I was wrong, let me correct that" (or at least quietly stop pushing for the wrong thing) instead of acting defensively and doubling down. I don't know to what extent in all the time you knew her you could have seen that at a smaller scale, but that's what she's doing.
posted by ctmf at 5:05 PM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Look for people who know how to say "oh, hey I assumed incorrectly" or "I was wrong, let me correct that" (or at least quietly stop pushing for the wrong thing) instead of acting defensively and doubling down. I don't know to what extent in all the time you knew her you could have seen that at a smaller scale, but that's what she's doing.
posted by ctmf at 5:05 PM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
This sounds like the org doesn’t have an effective process for a whistleblower, or anyone who raises a problem to the board, as well as retaliation consequences. The letter about libel could be shared with the board members with the understanding that when you brought a concern forward, it was in the best interest of the organization-they were at the meeting, did it rise to this level of response?
For your question: people who say “I had to get my lawyer involved” or have other litigiousness, that’s a red flag for a fight response.
posted by childofTethys at 4:06 AM on May 1, 2023
For your question: people who say “I had to get my lawyer involved” or have other litigiousness, that’s a red flag for a fight response.
posted by childofTethys at 4:06 AM on May 1, 2023
Thanks for the answers so far. To clarify, I'm looking for red flags earlier in the friendship, not in this specific incident about the nonprofit. I'd like to avoid spending years on a friendship and have it turn out like this.
Other people have outlined some of the signs, but I think your angle of avoiding "friends like this" won't save you from this happening again. Because she didn't do this as a bad friend--she'd have done this to you even if she'd never met you a day in her life. You feel worse because you thought she valued your friendship, but she does not see people as friends when they could impact her professional life. Drawing stronger boundaries around your friendships and professional relationships is something you can do that won't require you to guess correctly about someone's character every time.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:36 AM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Other people have outlined some of the signs, but I think your angle of avoiding "friends like this" won't save you from this happening again. Because she didn't do this as a bad friend--she'd have done this to you even if she'd never met you a day in her life. You feel worse because you thought she valued your friendship, but she does not see people as friends when they could impact her professional life. Drawing stronger boundaries around your friendships and professional relationships is something you can do that won't require you to guess correctly about someone's character every time.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:36 AM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by haptic_avenger at 6:07 AM on April 30, 2023 [14 favorites]