So tired of feeling unfeminine / low value
March 7, 2023 1:55 PM Subscribe
All my life I’ve been getting shit for very minor subversions of feminine expectations. I’m getting to the point where I am so angry and bitter. Help?
I’m a straight white woman. I wear makeup. I wear generally unisex-to-feminine clothing (more unisex as I age). And yet.
The “subversions” I’m talking about are essentially… not shaving my armpits and legs or other (extremely blonde, almost invisible) body hair most of the time. Having short hair on occasion. Not being excessively worried about how I look in places like the airport. Not trying to consistently look “better” than my very normie boyfriend, who dresses like a typical American male. Not being good at following when dancing, unless the leader is assertive enough for me to trust (and needing to build trust with someone before I can dance with them). If one more person YELLS at me that I need to loosen up while dancing I’m putting my fist through them.
I’m SO ANGRY that these extremely minor acts, which make me feel like myself and not a contestant on a reality show called Which Woman Can Hate Herself the Most?, inspire literal disgust from strangers AND loved ones and some of the rudest comments I’ve ever received in my life. I know it’s a bit silly that it pisses me off more *because* the acts are so minor, but the degree of cultural enforcement of these petty, stupid things always leaves me aghast. I can’t imagine living as someone with darker body hair, or someone whose style connotes any degree of gender flexibility or transition. It’s honestly so horrifying to me that anyone thinks it’s their business, and that people who supposedly love me (and often do demonstrably love me in other ways!) seem to grow little devil horns and start acting like perverse assholes the moment I skip wearing mascara on in a public place.
Of course, talking about any of this is even worse. You get told you are a loud mouthed feminist brat, no man will ever love you, etc. I know it’s not true, but I think the fact that my partner is probably more conventionally good looking than me (or realistically, if you drop the feminine beauty norms, we are about equal) makes people even more emboldened. As if I need to earn his love by overdoing it.
Basically what I’m wondering is what makes you feel better about all this, if you do in fact feel better? I don’t befriend people who are regressive or rude or make comments about strangers’ looks or bodies. Most of the people I do deal with are family or in-laws. I am at the point where every time they say some shitty thing, I pretty much want to psychologically destroy them.
It’s not just strictly personal; I’m at a breaking point with people complaining about their body weight despite the fact that I’ve never gotten shit about my weight. Just the incredible, ignorant rudeness of it all is astounding and making me lose faith in the human ability to do anything but judge and punish. I don’t know how I got to such a dark place! But I’d really like to get out of it. I’m starting to feel like I’m an animal in an increasingly idiotic cage. (The fact that I’m now in my 30s seems to have made people feel even more confident that they can say insane things to my face.)
I’m a straight white woman. I wear makeup. I wear generally unisex-to-feminine clothing (more unisex as I age). And yet.
The “subversions” I’m talking about are essentially… not shaving my armpits and legs or other (extremely blonde, almost invisible) body hair most of the time. Having short hair on occasion. Not being excessively worried about how I look in places like the airport. Not trying to consistently look “better” than my very normie boyfriend, who dresses like a typical American male. Not being good at following when dancing, unless the leader is assertive enough for me to trust (and needing to build trust with someone before I can dance with them). If one more person YELLS at me that I need to loosen up while dancing I’m putting my fist through them.
I’m SO ANGRY that these extremely minor acts, which make me feel like myself and not a contestant on a reality show called Which Woman Can Hate Herself the Most?, inspire literal disgust from strangers AND loved ones and some of the rudest comments I’ve ever received in my life. I know it’s a bit silly that it pisses me off more *because* the acts are so minor, but the degree of cultural enforcement of these petty, stupid things always leaves me aghast. I can’t imagine living as someone with darker body hair, or someone whose style connotes any degree of gender flexibility or transition. It’s honestly so horrifying to me that anyone thinks it’s their business, and that people who supposedly love me (and often do demonstrably love me in other ways!) seem to grow little devil horns and start acting like perverse assholes the moment I skip wearing mascara on in a public place.
Of course, talking about any of this is even worse. You get told you are a loud mouthed feminist brat, no man will ever love you, etc. I know it’s not true, but I think the fact that my partner is probably more conventionally good looking than me (or realistically, if you drop the feminine beauty norms, we are about equal) makes people even more emboldened. As if I need to earn his love by overdoing it.
Basically what I’m wondering is what makes you feel better about all this, if you do in fact feel better? I don’t befriend people who are regressive or rude or make comments about strangers’ looks or bodies. Most of the people I do deal with are family or in-laws. I am at the point where every time they say some shitty thing, I pretty much want to psychologically destroy them.
It’s not just strictly personal; I’m at a breaking point with people complaining about their body weight despite the fact that I’ve never gotten shit about my weight. Just the incredible, ignorant rudeness of it all is astounding and making me lose faith in the human ability to do anything but judge and punish. I don’t know how I got to such a dark place! But I’d really like to get out of it. I’m starting to feel like I’m an animal in an increasingly idiotic cage. (The fact that I’m now in my 30s seems to have made people feel even more confident that they can say insane things to my face.)
This is one place where the Mefi boundaries advice is very suitable. It's not an easy thing to do, but if you tell and then demonstrate to your family members that you damn well (calmly but firmly) will end the conversation if they start in on you about looking "tired" or whatever, and that this is not up for negotiation...unless they are genuinely abusive, they will eventually sputter to a halt, or close enough that it will drive you less crazy. I'm definitely on the less skillful end of conventional femininity, especially when I'm not making an effort for work or a special occasion (one of my friends called my off-duty style "slightly femme nerdcore"), but whatever thoughts people in my life may have, they know better than to say anything. So I never hear anything! It's a long, challenging path, but it sounds like one you need to try.
(With the weight thing, when I hear good friends/family complaining about theirs, I literally say, "Hey! Only loving self-talk around here." With less good friends, I just don't engage at all, so it isn't very rewarding for them to carry on. They're generally looking for an acknowledgement that we are all caught up in some group self-surveillance mechanism, and I won't give it.)
posted by praemunire at 2:13 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
(With the weight thing, when I hear good friends/family complaining about theirs, I literally say, "Hey! Only loving self-talk around here." With less good friends, I just don't engage at all, so it isn't very rewarding for them to carry on. They're generally looking for an acknowledgement that we are all caught up in some group self-surveillance mechanism, and I won't give it.)
posted by praemunire at 2:13 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm so sorry. What you're dealing with is bullshit and it's 100% not your fault and it's not fair that you have to figure out how to deal with it. Please know that I -- and many others -- are with you in a worldwide chorus of FUCK THAT NOISE!!
Ok, now for things that help.
1. Find a coven. It seems to me that you might need some solidarity in your life. I presume it's not easy for you to move somewhere a little less judgmental or somehow switch out all your family members for cooler versions of themselves. But, if you can find a few cool people and occasionally hang out with them and complain together, be yourselves together, take long weekends on Crone Island together -- it helps refill the tank, it really does.
2. Be a little ruder. It sounds like you may have been bottling this up for a while, which may make it difficult to be only a little rude. But being a little rude can help -- both by releasing some of your frustration, and by helping train others that you're not here for their bullshit comments. When I say, "a little rude," I mean responses like this:
- "Stop commenting on my appearance." [they keep doing it] "Bye, I'll see you next week."
- "I don't want to talk about weight." [they keep doing it] "Ok, I'm headed out now."
- [totally uncalled-for comment about your appearance] "Well, that's certainly an opinion." [dead-eyed stare]
- [totally uncalled-for comment about your appearance] "That's nobody's business but my own."
- [totally uncalled-for comment about your appearance] "Wow, that was rude."
You will notice that a lot of this isn't actually very rude. It's really just refusing to absorb and paper over the rudeness of other people. You don't have to do that for them -- they can sit and stew in the discomfort of the shitty thing they said. It's on them, not on you. Captain Awkward is the best for suggestions on this style of response.
posted by ourobouros at 2:30 PM on March 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
Ok, now for things that help.
1. Find a coven. It seems to me that you might need some solidarity in your life. I presume it's not easy for you to move somewhere a little less judgmental or somehow switch out all your family members for cooler versions of themselves. But, if you can find a few cool people and occasionally hang out with them and complain together, be yourselves together, take long weekends on Crone Island together -- it helps refill the tank, it really does.
2. Be a little ruder. It sounds like you may have been bottling this up for a while, which may make it difficult to be only a little rude. But being a little rude can help -- both by releasing some of your frustration, and by helping train others that you're not here for their bullshit comments. When I say, "a little rude," I mean responses like this:
- "Stop commenting on my appearance." [they keep doing it] "Bye, I'll see you next week."
- "I don't want to talk about weight." [they keep doing it] "Ok, I'm headed out now."
- [totally uncalled-for comment about your appearance] "Well, that's certainly an opinion." [dead-eyed stare]
- [totally uncalled-for comment about your appearance] "That's nobody's business but my own."
- [totally uncalled-for comment about your appearance] "Wow, that was rude."
You will notice that a lot of this isn't actually very rude. It's really just refusing to absorb and paper over the rudeness of other people. You don't have to do that for them -- they can sit and stew in the discomfort of the shitty thing they said. It's on them, not on you. Captain Awkward is the best for suggestions on this style of response.
posted by ourobouros at 2:30 PM on March 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
Best answer: Basically what I’m wondering is what makes you feel better about all this, if you do in fact feel better?
TBH, if people are being assholes to you, I think a personal attitude adjustment isn't going to do as much as the kind of firm boundary setting referenced above. FWIW though, not long after puberty I realized there is no right way to be a woman. And not in the positive sense of "femininity is a varied tapestry and all forms of it are valid," though that is obviously true. I mean in the sense that to a lot of people, there is never, ever going to be a right way to be a woman, there will always be something wrong with the way a woman is being a woman. You can fulfill the most perfect, beautiful ideal of traditional womanhood, and someone will still find fault. It's a rigged game.
So I decided, fuck it, do what you want. If you're gonna be considered wrong no matter what, there's no point in doing anything other than what makes you most comfortable, nothing else matters.
posted by yasaman at 2:39 PM on March 7, 2023 [45 favorites]
TBH, if people are being assholes to you, I think a personal attitude adjustment isn't going to do as much as the kind of firm boundary setting referenced above. FWIW though, not long after puberty I realized there is no right way to be a woman. And not in the positive sense of "femininity is a varied tapestry and all forms of it are valid," though that is obviously true. I mean in the sense that to a lot of people, there is never, ever going to be a right way to be a woman, there will always be something wrong with the way a woman is being a woman. You can fulfill the most perfect, beautiful ideal of traditional womanhood, and someone will still find fault. It's a rigged game.
So I decided, fuck it, do what you want. If you're gonna be considered wrong no matter what, there's no point in doing anything other than what makes you most comfortable, nothing else matters.
posted by yasaman at 2:39 PM on March 7, 2023 [45 favorites]
I feel you. I've taken to responding (or thinking) with disappointment: "you're so boring." It's childish but it does make me feel better/reinforces to myself that I'm not the problem, and it's not so aggressive that I fear for my safety if said aloud.
posted by Stoof at 2:40 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Stoof at 2:40 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
You know what a feminist loud mouth brat does? Pushes back against jerks. So might as well own the accusations and fully embody your feminist rage here. (Or at least be more intentional in setting firm boundaries, ahem.)
Because it sounds like the most stereotypically feminine thing here is that you're, on some level, buying into this cultural bullshit we all hear, and not clapping back, because "nice" women don't do that.
This is nasty stuff these folks are directing at you, and I'm so sorry. I'd think pretty hard about whether you truly need to be around these folks.
And if so, then maybe the thing isn't to destroy them psychologically (though I do want to be a fly on the wall when that happens!), but to say no, to tell them to knock it off. "No more comments on my appearance, or I'm ending the conversation." And then follow through, each and every time, by hanging up, leaving the room, whatever. So what if they call you a bitch? They won't be doing it to your face because you aren't there, and they already say terrible things anyway.
I'm a feminist loud mouth, and while I'm often feminine-presenting, I do not hold back on expressing my opinions, especially if someone does or says something sexist, fatphobic, transphobic, homophobic, or racist, whether or not it's directed at me. And guess what? You hear a lot less of the bullshit when you stand up to the bullshit.
And then sometimes, we start to actually embody and feel the confidence we present to the world.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:42 PM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Because it sounds like the most stereotypically feminine thing here is that you're, on some level, buying into this cultural bullshit we all hear, and not clapping back, because "nice" women don't do that.
This is nasty stuff these folks are directing at you, and I'm so sorry. I'd think pretty hard about whether you truly need to be around these folks.
And if so, then maybe the thing isn't to destroy them psychologically (though I do want to be a fly on the wall when that happens!), but to say no, to tell them to knock it off. "No more comments on my appearance, or I'm ending the conversation." And then follow through, each and every time, by hanging up, leaving the room, whatever. So what if they call you a bitch? They won't be doing it to your face because you aren't there, and they already say terrible things anyway.
I'm a feminist loud mouth, and while I'm often feminine-presenting, I do not hold back on expressing my opinions, especially if someone does or says something sexist, fatphobic, transphobic, homophobic, or racist, whether or not it's directed at me. And guess what? You hear a lot less of the bullshit when you stand up to the bullshit.
And then sometimes, we start to actually embody and feel the confidence we present to the world.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:42 PM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Oh HELLO question that was written for me.
Be RUDE to people. Revel in being unladylike, and stop playing nice. It's ok to be rude to people who are rude to you. This includes family.
I've buzzed all my hair off a few times. I remember years ago I was waiting for a bus one beautiful spring day, freshly bald, getting ready to go downtown and meet some friends. I had just posted a feelin cute photo to facebook of my bald ass head. I got a call from my grandma absolutely BEGGING me to take down the photo because I looked "so bad." I was like wow grandma, that's mean. She said "don't all your friends make fun of you? for how ugly you look?" and I was like "no grandma, because my friends aren't assholes." She started crying and moaning some more about how I was making her/the family/myself look bad, and I just cut her off and said "call me back when you have something worthwhile to say" and hung up on her. She's dead now and I'm not, so score one for me I guess.
The point is, your friends and family are supposed to love you and support you. When they can't do that, then they at least need to keep their mouths shut. When they can't do that, you get to tell them to suck your whole ass. That's the rules. That's how it works.
ALSO, reframe femininity for yourself. Feminine means having qualities associated with women and girls. Cool, got it. No gods, no masters. Channel your inner Emma Goldman. Your Margaret Sanger. Your Lucy Parsons. You and your femininity is valid simply by virtue of existing.
There's also a comment I'm pretty sure I saw here on metafilter (maybe by corpse in the library) about a haircut, that I carry in my heart every day: "You have boy hair!" "Well, I'm a girl and I have this hair, so how can it be boy hair?"
tl;dr don't let anyone try to tell you shit.
posted by phunniemee at 2:42 PM on March 7, 2023 [100 favorites]
Be RUDE to people. Revel in being unladylike, and stop playing nice. It's ok to be rude to people who are rude to you. This includes family.
I've buzzed all my hair off a few times. I remember years ago I was waiting for a bus one beautiful spring day, freshly bald, getting ready to go downtown and meet some friends. I had just posted a feelin cute photo to facebook of my bald ass head. I got a call from my grandma absolutely BEGGING me to take down the photo because I looked "so bad." I was like wow grandma, that's mean. She said "don't all your friends make fun of you? for how ugly you look?" and I was like "no grandma, because my friends aren't assholes." She started crying and moaning some more about how I was making her/the family/myself look bad, and I just cut her off and said "call me back when you have something worthwhile to say" and hung up on her. She's dead now and I'm not, so score one for me I guess.
The point is, your friends and family are supposed to love you and support you. When they can't do that, then they at least need to keep their mouths shut. When they can't do that, you get to tell them to suck your whole ass. That's the rules. That's how it works.
ALSO, reframe femininity for yourself. Feminine means having qualities associated with women and girls. Cool, got it. No gods, no masters. Channel your inner Emma Goldman. Your Margaret Sanger. Your Lucy Parsons. You and your femininity is valid simply by virtue of existing.
There's also a comment I'm pretty sure I saw here on metafilter (maybe by corpse in the library) about a haircut, that I carry in my heart every day: "You have boy hair!" "Well, I'm a girl and I have this hair, so how can it be boy hair?"
tl;dr don't let anyone try to tell you shit.
posted by phunniemee at 2:42 PM on March 7, 2023 [100 favorites]
Best answer: Also, I notice that you are talking about two separate things that are feeding each other:
feeling unfeminine and low value
nasty comments from others about you being unfeminine or low value
Clearly these things have become so reinforcing, but you can't win. You can tackle these things separately. If you can get to a place where you walk away from the comments, and make it clear you are doing that, then you won't hear them, and I do think that's going to help with the feelings, coupled with doing some deep self-work and conversations with other women about these issues. You need women to talk to about all this, who are safe and supportive.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:44 PM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
feeling unfeminine and low value
nasty comments from others about you being unfeminine or low value
Clearly these things have become so reinforcing, but you can't win. You can tackle these things separately. If you can get to a place where you walk away from the comments, and make it clear you are doing that, then you won't hear them, and I do think that's going to help with the feelings, coupled with doing some deep self-work and conversations with other women about these issues. You need women to talk to about all this, who are safe and supportive.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:44 PM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm not 100 percent clear on who you're getting this from, but it sounds like a lot of it is your family. If you BF is talking to you like this, then you need to take a long, hard look at that relationship. If it's mostly your family, then cultivate relationships elsewhere. Finding feminist spaces to make friends is harder and easier in different parts of the country, but worthwhile for recalibrating your sense of yourself and having other voices. Maybe a different, less hetero-normative style of dance? Some other interest that you always were curious about, but knew people wouldn't approve of? Cruise FB events and Starbucks and Bookstore bulletin boards, if nothing else.
posted by DebetEsse at 2:45 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by DebetEsse at 2:45 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
- [totally uncalled-for comment about your appearance] "Wow, that was rude."
This is my go-to phrase. If it's someone I technically can't say that to (like, my department chair, true story) I just do the deadpan stare like ouroboros mentions. Return awkward to sender.
You could also go all Southern and say "Aw, well, bless your heart." Throw in a "sugar" for good measure if you really hate em.
But really, you need better friends.
posted by basalganglia at 2:50 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is my go-to phrase. If it's someone I technically can't say that to (like, my department chair, true story) I just do the deadpan stare like ouroboros mentions. Return awkward to sender.
You could also go all Southern and say "Aw, well, bless your heart." Throw in a "sugar" for good measure if you really hate em.
But really, you need better friends.
posted by basalganglia at 2:50 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
"Damn right! Fuck the patriarchy, eh?!" OR, if you prefer, "Fuckin' A!!! Screw the patriarchy!" And then laugh at their sad, myopic worldview.
posted by kate4914 at 2:51 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kate4914 at 2:51 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It sounds like you need this: The Terrible Bargain We Have Regretfully Struck
There is the unwillingness to listen, a ferociously stubborn not getting it on so many things, so many important things. And the obdurate refusal to believe, to internalize, that my outrage is not manufactured and my injure not make-believe—an inflexible rejection of the possibility that my pain is authentic, in favor of the consolatory belief that I am angry because I'm a feminist (rather than the truth: that I'm a feminist because I'm angry)...posted by hydropsyche at 3:02 PM on March 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
...This, then, is the terrible bargain we have regretfully struck: Men are allowed the easy comfort of their unexamined privilege, but my regard will always be shot through with a steely, anxious bolt of caution.
Best answer: ALSO, reframe femininity for yourself.
I like this a lot
'feminine' and 'masculine' are words to own, make the meanings work for you. so much about these concepts have been weaponized to control behaviour, it's absolutely some of the most damaging and toxic bullshit impacting lives today. If someone else's idea of 'feminine' finds you lacking, they can shove it up their ass
posted by elkevelvet at 3:05 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
I like this a lot
'feminine' and 'masculine' are words to own, make the meanings work for you. so much about these concepts have been weaponized to control behaviour, it's absolutely some of the most damaging and toxic bullshit impacting lives today. If someone else's idea of 'feminine' finds you lacking, they can shove it up their ass
posted by elkevelvet at 3:05 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
I wonder where you are that this happens so often...I am in NYC and I get cat-called and sometimes told to smile and life is full of sexism, but I don't wear make-up, shave body hair when I feel like it, etc. and I was trying to think if I have had similar experiences to you...this is not meant to suggest that you are imagining things, just wondering how much of this is regional/cultural and whether there is a way for you to build community (like dance classes) somewhere where that is less likely to be an issue.
But in terms of dealing with it, what makes me feel better is, I actually am really good -- and kind of known among my friends for this -- for schooling other people, including friends, family and in-laws, in how it is and is not okay to talk to me. I put a high premium on doing that and I guess set effective enough boundaries that after I do that, I rarely find myself in a position where I feel like I want to punch them. I don't mean to suggest that I educate or enlighten them, but I am willing to make things uncomfortable to the point where it tends to curb repeat behavior.
For example, some years ago I came to meet my mother and her best friend, who knew me since childhood, for lunch. I had just come from the hairdresser, and my mom's best friend told me that my hair is ugly, and that I "ruined" my look. The following conversation then ensued:
me: "That is a rude and inappropriate thing to say to me. What makes you think it's okay to tell me that something about me looks ugly?"
mother's friend: "I don't mean anything bad by it! You just normally have such beautiful hair."
me: "that is irrelevant. I am guessing you would not tell one of your peers something like this to their face, and I am guessing you think that you have leeway to talk to me this way because you knew me as a child. But we are no both adults and you are being extremely rude."
mother's friend: "I didn't mean to upset you, you are being so sensitive."
me: "I am not being sensitive, I am explaining to you that you are being rude in a social setting. Our history does not give you entitlement to talk to me this way. You would probably be very surprised and put off if I told you your shoes or coat or manicure were ugly. So from now on, when tempted to comment on my appearance, you should imagine me saying the same thing to you. If in your thought experiment it sounds rude and inappropriate, I promise you, it is exactly as rude and inappropriate when directed towards me."
Etc. I am sure she bitched about me and gossiped about me and my hair but I made enough of a "scene" that she never said anything like that to my face again.
Another related approach is acting dumb and asking someone to explain their point to you (this approach also works well when someone is telling you a racist or sexist joke) -- it sabotages what they are trying to do by removing your presumed complicity. "Why don't you shave your legs?" "Why?" "Because it's unladylike." "Why?" "Don't you want to look nice?" "What does my leg hair have to do with me looking nice? I don't understand, can you take me through your reasoning step by step?" "What does me letting you lead in dance have to do with relaxation? But those things seem unrelated. Relaxation is the opposite of stress. Are you saying I am leading because I am stressed? Are you leading because you are stressed? Oh, only a woman would lead if stressed? Why is that? What is the relationship between the two. I don't get it! Can you break it down for me?" Etc. Etc. Until they get bored or tired or uncomfortable.
Basically I advocate investing in polite but uncomfortable interactions that will condition your interlocutors to believe that you are too "costly" and uncomfortable to pick on, and that you won't engage in rules of social politeness to buffer them against consequences of their rudeness.
posted by virve at 3:05 PM on March 7, 2023 [30 favorites]
But in terms of dealing with it, what makes me feel better is, I actually am really good -- and kind of known among my friends for this -- for schooling other people, including friends, family and in-laws, in how it is and is not okay to talk to me. I put a high premium on doing that and I guess set effective enough boundaries that after I do that, I rarely find myself in a position where I feel like I want to punch them. I don't mean to suggest that I educate or enlighten them, but I am willing to make things uncomfortable to the point where it tends to curb repeat behavior.
For example, some years ago I came to meet my mother and her best friend, who knew me since childhood, for lunch. I had just come from the hairdresser, and my mom's best friend told me that my hair is ugly, and that I "ruined" my look. The following conversation then ensued:
me: "That is a rude and inappropriate thing to say to me. What makes you think it's okay to tell me that something about me looks ugly?"
mother's friend: "I don't mean anything bad by it! You just normally have such beautiful hair."
me: "that is irrelevant. I am guessing you would not tell one of your peers something like this to their face, and I am guessing you think that you have leeway to talk to me this way because you knew me as a child. But we are no both adults and you are being extremely rude."
mother's friend: "I didn't mean to upset you, you are being so sensitive."
me: "I am not being sensitive, I am explaining to you that you are being rude in a social setting. Our history does not give you entitlement to talk to me this way. You would probably be very surprised and put off if I told you your shoes or coat or manicure were ugly. So from now on, when tempted to comment on my appearance, you should imagine me saying the same thing to you. If in your thought experiment it sounds rude and inappropriate, I promise you, it is exactly as rude and inappropriate when directed towards me."
Etc. I am sure she bitched about me and gossiped about me and my hair but I made enough of a "scene" that she never said anything like that to my face again.
Another related approach is acting dumb and asking someone to explain their point to you (this approach also works well when someone is telling you a racist or sexist joke) -- it sabotages what they are trying to do by removing your presumed complicity. "Why don't you shave your legs?" "Why?" "Because it's unladylike." "Why?" "Don't you want to look nice?" "What does my leg hair have to do with me looking nice? I don't understand, can you take me through your reasoning step by step?" "What does me letting you lead in dance have to do with relaxation? But those things seem unrelated. Relaxation is the opposite of stress. Are you saying I am leading because I am stressed? Are you leading because you are stressed? Oh, only a woman would lead if stressed? Why is that? What is the relationship between the two. I don't get it! Can you break it down for me?" Etc. Etc. Until they get bored or tired or uncomfortable.
Basically I advocate investing in polite but uncomfortable interactions that will condition your interlocutors to believe that you are too "costly" and uncomfortable to pick on, and that you won't engage in rules of social politeness to buffer them against consequences of their rudeness.
posted by virve at 3:05 PM on March 7, 2023 [30 favorites]
As someone who is very loud mouth and does not shave my black body hair in the winter and loves to dance, I urge you to be more and more you. Don't participate in any more of these things that are not for you and if someone brings it up in "kindness" tell them how much you love not shaving, dancing like a badass, your sexy (maybe curvy, maybe long graceful, maybe solid and strong - I cannot tell) shape, and being amazing.
Also, all these things that you are describing sound very much like the patriachry trying to control your body to me. Not shaving lets you have more sensation and awareness, dancing = sensation, enjoyment of food = sensation. That is how you psychologically destroy them - you destroy the very notion that you are not beautiful right now and you point out that they are trying to take away sensation, especially sexual. They will stop talking if you bring up how amazing it feels to swim with long hair on your legs and how amazing it is to then shave your legs cause you want to and swim and have that sensation and then grow that beautiful hair right back out again - cause you want to.
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 3:15 PM on March 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
Also, all these things that you are describing sound very much like the patriachry trying to control your body to me. Not shaving lets you have more sensation and awareness, dancing = sensation, enjoyment of food = sensation. That is how you psychologically destroy them - you destroy the very notion that you are not beautiful right now and you point out that they are trying to take away sensation, especially sexual. They will stop talking if you bring up how amazing it feels to swim with long hair on your legs and how amazing it is to then shave your legs cause you want to and swim and have that sensation and then grow that beautiful hair right back out again - cause you want to.
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 3:15 PM on March 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
Shut it down
"Oh for Pete's sake, get a life"(to family)
"Yep, I like it this way" (undercut them by agreeing)
"I'm fine, how are you?"
"What's your problem?"
"I'm glad I don'thave dark hair. I'd hate to hear what you'd say."
"Do you criticize everybody?"
For the dancing I'd just say, "I'm assertive. It's great!"
posted by Enid Lareg at 3:23 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Oh for Pete's sake, get a life"(to family)
"Yep, I like it this way" (undercut them by agreeing)
"I'm fine, how are you?"
"What's your problem?"
"I'm glad I don'thave dark hair. I'd hate to hear what you'd say."
"Do you criticize everybody?"
For the dancing I'd just say, "I'm assertive. It's great!"
posted by Enid Lareg at 3:23 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
You've got some people in your life with some really crappy ideas. It's okay to not be open for those topics of conversation. It's okay to walk out on conversations, to tell people you don't care about their opinions about your looks, to model for any younger people in your life an active "why the fuck would you even say that?" response to such things.
I would start there, I think, prioritizing getting the shitty outside messages out of your life. When that is done, it sounds like it might be some combination of interesting, helpful, and/or healing for you to sit with your own conceptions of gender roles and gender expression and figure out what feels good to you - and to be open to that changing over time! But you don't have room for that in your life right now with everyone else's shitty opinions coming at you nonstop. I hope you can make that room.
(To answer your question about our own experiences: I'm in my mid-forties now and some of my answer to this is just time. I know I cared more about what a stranger might say about my unshaved legs in my early thirties, I just...can no longer imagine giving that more than a passing second of my time or energy. It wasn't any one thing, it was just a combination of time, experience, priorities, an intentional shift in who I consider myself to be in community with, and some of that "sitting with myself and what I think about my own gender expression" stuff. I think having more women older than myself in my life modeling that energy for me helped me get there. If you can bring more people into your life who express and experience their gender expressions in ways that resonate for you, that may also help crowd out some of the noise and make more room for you to find less anger and more joy in this area.)
posted by Stacey at 3:29 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would start there, I think, prioritizing getting the shitty outside messages out of your life. When that is done, it sounds like it might be some combination of interesting, helpful, and/or healing for you to sit with your own conceptions of gender roles and gender expression and figure out what feels good to you - and to be open to that changing over time! But you don't have room for that in your life right now with everyone else's shitty opinions coming at you nonstop. I hope you can make that room.
(To answer your question about our own experiences: I'm in my mid-forties now and some of my answer to this is just time. I know I cared more about what a stranger might say about my unshaved legs in my early thirties, I just...can no longer imagine giving that more than a passing second of my time or energy. It wasn't any one thing, it was just a combination of time, experience, priorities, an intentional shift in who I consider myself to be in community with, and some of that "sitting with myself and what I think about my own gender expression" stuff. I think having more women older than myself in my life modeling that energy for me helped me get there. If you can bring more people into your life who express and experience their gender expressions in ways that resonate for you, that may also help crowd out some of the noise and make more room for you to find less anger and more joy in this area.)
posted by Stacey at 3:29 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hi, I just wanted to add to the chorus of voices here: You are not unfeminine or of low value. You are fine the way you are.
And also, these are not minor acts: They hurt your feelings. The next time one of these micro-aggressions happen, don't try to fix things. TELL THEM. "You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't appreciate your comment. How I choose to wear my hair/wear no mascara/shave or not/etc is my decision, not yours. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean you are entitled to tell me what to do. I don't comment about your appearance/behavior, so please don't comment about mine". Rude? Perhaps. But they were rude first, and repeatedly from what you are saying.
I'm assuming you are living in North America somewhere. My impression, as a European who moved to the US as a teen, is that your friends and family most likely came out of a conformist culture: It's important for them to "fit in", to be "normal", etc. And mostly, in that culture, "feminine" is performative. What's considered acceptably feminine is what the mainstream says. It changes over time (a few years ago they'd be complaining that your bras aren't pointy enough, or that you don't wear stockings, etc etc).
The thing is, when they are being rude to you and criticizing your unwillingness to follow their script, they are talking to themselves as much as they are talking to you: By saying you don't fit the norm, they are also saying "I accept the norm", "I had to shave my legs", "I won't try to lead when dancing", etc etc. Maybe they are also suppressing their own rage at having been made into good, obedient people who wear the clothes they are being told to and wear their hair the way they are supposed to. Either way, as everyone else has been saying, it's their weakness, their conformism, and it has nothing to do with you.
When I was a teen and had just moved from Paris and Rome to conformist Bahstahn, Mass, I'd get harassed all the time: Why are you wearing bright colors? (I'm a straight guy). Why don't you like beer, or baseball? Even fellow MIT nerds (nerds weren't cool then) would get nervous if I wore the "wrong" clothes to a physics lecture. As a teen, it used to bother me. Being of a scientific background, I'd do experiments where I'd adopt various disguises to see if I was accepted more. But then as I got older, the penny dropped: It's not our job to make weak, conformist people feel better by second guessing what is acceptable to them and trying to fit that model. If you don't like to shave, don't. Don't try to get gussied up in uncomfortable outfits. You don't have to. If your boyfriend is with you, it must be because he likes you the way you are, because he likes looking at you, talking with you, waking up with you and your fuzzy legs, etc, not because you are cosplaying the right feminine role.
Same for your so-called friends and your family: it's not your job to make them feel better about having the right friend, sister, daughter, etc. If they care about you, they will accept that you will no longer tolerate the put downs and criticisms. If they won't, a time out is called for.
I wish you luck. "Living well is the best revenge", as they say. Be strong. Be ornery. Be yourself. And treasure the expression on the faces of these rude people, when they realize that you're no longer under their thrall.
It's your turn to smile.
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 3:32 PM on March 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
And also, these are not minor acts: They hurt your feelings. The next time one of these micro-aggressions happen, don't try to fix things. TELL THEM. "You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't appreciate your comment. How I choose to wear my hair/wear no mascara/shave or not/etc is my decision, not yours. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean you are entitled to tell me what to do. I don't comment about your appearance/behavior, so please don't comment about mine". Rude? Perhaps. But they were rude first, and repeatedly from what you are saying.
I'm assuming you are living in North America somewhere. My impression, as a European who moved to the US as a teen, is that your friends and family most likely came out of a conformist culture: It's important for them to "fit in", to be "normal", etc. And mostly, in that culture, "feminine" is performative. What's considered acceptably feminine is what the mainstream says. It changes over time (a few years ago they'd be complaining that your bras aren't pointy enough, or that you don't wear stockings, etc etc).
The thing is, when they are being rude to you and criticizing your unwillingness to follow their script, they are talking to themselves as much as they are talking to you: By saying you don't fit the norm, they are also saying "I accept the norm", "I had to shave my legs", "I won't try to lead when dancing", etc etc. Maybe they are also suppressing their own rage at having been made into good, obedient people who wear the clothes they are being told to and wear their hair the way they are supposed to. Either way, as everyone else has been saying, it's their weakness, their conformism, and it has nothing to do with you.
When I was a teen and had just moved from Paris and Rome to conformist Bahstahn, Mass, I'd get harassed all the time: Why are you wearing bright colors? (I'm a straight guy). Why don't you like beer, or baseball? Even fellow MIT nerds (nerds weren't cool then) would get nervous if I wore the "wrong" clothes to a physics lecture. As a teen, it used to bother me. Being of a scientific background, I'd do experiments where I'd adopt various disguises to see if I was accepted more. But then as I got older, the penny dropped: It's not our job to make weak, conformist people feel better by second guessing what is acceptable to them and trying to fit that model. If you don't like to shave, don't. Don't try to get gussied up in uncomfortable outfits. You don't have to. If your boyfriend is with you, it must be because he likes you the way you are, because he likes looking at you, talking with you, waking up with you and your fuzzy legs, etc, not because you are cosplaying the right feminine role.
Same for your so-called friends and your family: it's not your job to make them feel better about having the right friend, sister, daughter, etc. If they care about you, they will accept that you will no longer tolerate the put downs and criticisms. If they won't, a time out is called for.
I wish you luck. "Living well is the best revenge", as they say. Be strong. Be ornery. Be yourself. And treasure the expression on the faces of these rude people, when they realize that you're no longer under their thrall.
It's your turn to smile.
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 3:32 PM on March 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
I try to remember how deeply internalized misogyny can be and forgive them for their ignorance and lack of equipment to cope with it in a truth-honouring way. I also shut it down (with a smile if at all possible, if I feel like it’s ultimately coming from love for me vs self justifying beliefs).
Just like “no, don’t feel like wearing lipstick. I know you want me to look “good” and I think I do! Love you”. (Haven’t dealt with much from people with what I’d guess were awful intentions tbh.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:37 PM on March 7, 2023
Just like “no, don’t feel like wearing lipstick. I know you want me to look “good” and I think I do! Love you”. (Haven’t dealt with much from people with what I’d guess were awful intentions tbh.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:37 PM on March 7, 2023
People suck so much. I have two ways of combating this, and I promise you, I girl about as wrong as one can girl. One is to agree with them, "omg your hair's so short!" - "I know, isn't it awesome?", the other, where that doesn't work is to say, like you would to a child "That's a horrible thing to say" or "That's a very hurtful thing to say". Those two work better than "rude" I feel. Aging into getting really mad about things you previously went along with a little is the step before aging into not giving two flying fucks, but there's probably a decade between the two so that's not helpful. But for reals, you need to tell that boyf that a) this is happening, and b) it's hurting your feelings. His family, his burden, you've got to deal with your own.
posted by Iteki at 3:52 PM on March 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 3:52 PM on March 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Basically what I’m wondering is what makes you feel better about all this, if you do in fact feel better?
I don't take it personally.
Whenever someone is talking shit about someone else, their real target is themself. They're revealing their fear and anxiety and pain. Imagine being terrified that no one will love you if you cut your hair. What a prison.
posted by betweenthebars at 4:09 PM on March 7, 2023 [20 favorites]
I don't take it personally.
Whenever someone is talking shit about someone else, their real target is themself. They're revealing their fear and anxiety and pain. Imagine being terrified that no one will love you if you cut your hair. What a prison.
posted by betweenthebars at 4:09 PM on March 7, 2023 [20 favorites]
Yeah it is "death by a thousand cuts." Each individual incident isn't much but boy do they build up. You have every right to feel angry over the entire pattern (probably decades) of others dumping their insecurities on you.
I don't shave. Rarely wear makeup. Dress in jeans and hoodies more often than not. The people who matter to me don't care. My partner pets my hairy legs when we watch tv together. One time I had them waxed for a vacation and he was totally tripped out by it, since he's never seen my legs hairless before.
Sounds like you are surrounded by assholes. I would totally call them out on it.
A couple years ago I was at a lake with my parents, my kids, and my sister. I took off my out clothes to go swim and my mother elbows my sister (who is 16 years younger than I am), points out my legs and says "Hey, do you want hairy legs like that!?" My sister says, "No thank you!" and they giggle together. I turned to them and said, "my kids are out playing in the water, and I have two options, sit here and miss out on the fun because I am too ashamed of my body ( my mother refuses to get in the water due to body issues), or go play with my kids and build memories. They'll always remember me as the mom who was willing to jump in and have fun with them so that's what I'm going to do. It's just hair" .
Some weeks later we all went swimming again. My sister went to take off her outer clothes. She paused and said with a slight panic, "Oh, I forgot to shave... " but then she shrugged and said "oh well, it's just hair" and she tossed her clothes aside and happily trotted to the water.
I guess the point is, if you call them out on it, you never know who is listening. You just might be the one to break the cycle.
Also you have every right to set boundaries and tell them they are not allowed to comment on your body. That's perfectly reasonable.
posted by CleverClover at 4:16 PM on March 7, 2023 [36 favorites]
I don't shave. Rarely wear makeup. Dress in jeans and hoodies more often than not. The people who matter to me don't care. My partner pets my hairy legs when we watch tv together. One time I had them waxed for a vacation and he was totally tripped out by it, since he's never seen my legs hairless before.
Sounds like you are surrounded by assholes. I would totally call them out on it.
A couple years ago I was at a lake with my parents, my kids, and my sister. I took off my out clothes to go swim and my mother elbows my sister (who is 16 years younger than I am), points out my legs and says "Hey, do you want hairy legs like that!?" My sister says, "No thank you!" and they giggle together. I turned to them and said, "my kids are out playing in the water, and I have two options, sit here and miss out on the fun because I am too ashamed of my body ( my mother refuses to get in the water due to body issues), or go play with my kids and build memories. They'll always remember me as the mom who was willing to jump in and have fun with them so that's what I'm going to do. It's just hair" .
Some weeks later we all went swimming again. My sister went to take off her outer clothes. She paused and said with a slight panic, "Oh, I forgot to shave... " but then she shrugged and said "oh well, it's just hair" and she tossed her clothes aside and happily trotted to the water.
I guess the point is, if you call them out on it, you never know who is listening. You just might be the one to break the cycle.
Also you have every right to set boundaries and tell them they are not allowed to comment on your body. That's perfectly reasonable.
posted by CleverClover at 4:16 PM on March 7, 2023 [36 favorites]
Can you find a better dance community? Hard agree that someone complaining in this way about your follow is really complaining about their own poor lead skills.
See if you can find one where people eventually learn to lead and follow (the SF Bay Area social dance scene is all sorts of screwed up, but most people I knew who got into it learned their favorite dance styles as both lead and follow, regardless of their gender; made them better dancers overall). How easy this is depends on where in the world you are, and on how flexible you can be in terms of styles of dance (contra and squares both have large queer communities, but I don’t know enough about salsa/swing/lindy/etc to say what would be best).
Why do I suggest this? Well, I’ve never been great at living up to someone else’s feminist ideal, but the times when I can own that the most and feel most comfortable about it happen when I am feeling comfortable in my own body. When I am doing an activity I enjoy and doing it well. It can be quite rejuvenating and give you some extra ability to handle the people in the rest of your life that don’t get it.
It sounds like that activity for you might be dance; but if the people you’re dancing with are asshats it won’t be nearly as much fun.
posted by nat at 4:17 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
See if you can find one where people eventually learn to lead and follow (the SF Bay Area social dance scene is all sorts of screwed up, but most people I knew who got into it learned their favorite dance styles as both lead and follow, regardless of their gender; made them better dancers overall). How easy this is depends on where in the world you are, and on how flexible you can be in terms of styles of dance (contra and squares both have large queer communities, but I don’t know enough about salsa/swing/lindy/etc to say what would be best).
Why do I suggest this? Well, I’ve never been great at living up to someone else’s feminist ideal, but the times when I can own that the most and feel most comfortable about it happen when I am feeling comfortable in my own body. When I am doing an activity I enjoy and doing it well. It can be quite rejuvenating and give you some extra ability to handle the people in the rest of your life that don’t get it.
It sounds like that activity for you might be dance; but if the people you’re dancing with are asshats it won’t be nearly as much fun.
posted by nat at 4:17 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is incredibly petty and regressive, but who exactly in your in-laws is telling you that you can't catch a man? Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me.
Oh, and new dance style.
posted by kingdead at 4:29 PM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Oh, and new dance style.
posted by kingdead at 4:29 PM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
The second to last time anyone commented negatively about my unshaved legs(*) was in maybe eighth grade? A classmate, perhaps trying to make a point that society dictated that it was time for me to start shaving, asked in an odd tone of voice, “do you shave your legs?” But I misheard it as “do you shape your legs?”, which made no sense to me. Completely puzzled and mystified, I responded in what came out as a rather dismissive to perhaps even derisive tone, “what??! No.” Other classmates were around to overhear the exchange. My response was apparently firm enough that nobody at school ever tried that with me again. Completely accidental on my part, but making the other person feel like they have made the social faux pas by asking or commenting does seem to be highly effective in shutting down such sexist conformism. (* I also have very little hair that barely shows up against my skin tone, coloration wise. I did have multiple conversations with other girls and young women throughout high school and college about the topic, and how by luck of the genetic draw I faced much less social approbation for not shaving than most girls and women. But no negative comments.)
The last time was still in my early 20s. I was considering getting back together with a guy I had broken up with, and he requested that I take up shaving as a precondition. We did not get back together. (For multiple reasons, but that was definitely a factor.)
posted by eviemath at 4:41 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The last time was still in my early 20s. I was considering getting back together with a guy I had broken up with, and he requested that I take up shaving as a precondition. We did not get back together. (For multiple reasons, but that was definitely a factor.)
posted by eviemath at 4:41 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
You sound completely normal in your body maintenance habits, well I do the same as you and I consider myself super normal in occasionally bothering with makeup and not bothering with fine, blond hair removal. But so what if it’s ‘normal’ or ‘abnormal’ when there’s a critical noise jamming into your ears.
Women get shit all their lives about what they are doing or not doing in any situation. But sooo much with their presentation. I was a teacher for a few decades and oh my god, what staff and students thought they could say about my minor armpit tufts, or unshaven legs. For years I had to be relatively demure in my responses. I used a kind of dismissive wit to make people feel really out of order without telling them to simply go fuck themselves, like “these observations about your teacher, and your thoughts on how I should be appearing in your range of vision sound like they should go in your diary. And if you are taking the time to write critical comments on my appearance in your diary, I’d really reflect on that.’
My grandmother was always saying ‘oh you used to have such lovely hair, why would you do that to it?’ Or ‘you’d be so pretty if you just…’
In my thirties i came into my rage.
The last time she did it to me, I said ‘Grandma, could you stop saying horrible things to me? Can you do that? Because the last thing I would think to say to you as you put purple through your grey hair or perm your flat, thin hair is ‘oh you look terrible and used to be pretty’ because it.would.be.very.very.fucking.rude. And completely disrespectful.” She didn’t do it again.
My mother and father had a skinny child in me, and when I finally could eat what I wanted when I left home I put on a marginal amount of weight. My podgy parents couldn’t stop crapping on about all the alleged weight and I used to slide away from confrontation. Last time my dad did it in the most ‘you’re getting a fat ass on ya’ commentary I said ‘will you just for a fucking minute look at the gene pool I’m dealing with’ stormed out, got in my car and drove away. And ate what I felt like eating ever after. People with power over you, or who have historically had power of you exert the power through criticism, expecting none in return. It’s an exercise in domination.
Domination via critiquing female presentation is a key part of patriarchy. Burn it down. Each woman who stands against this in their own life, is doing something for all who are freighted with the domination ideology of patriarchy.
Finding my rage enough to lose it sometimes with repeat offenders like family was a way for me to find power in relationships that had been a one-sided domination for three decades. I stopped avoiding swearing, I stopped smiling at this crap. I stopped deferring. And I perfected the lines: ‘I’d like you to speak to me with respect and care, can you do that?’ It really makes the offender pause because a yes/no answer option really lays out the foundation of what they think their rights are over your feelings.
posted by honey-barbara at 4:56 PM on March 7, 2023 [23 favorites]
Women get shit all their lives about what they are doing or not doing in any situation. But sooo much with their presentation. I was a teacher for a few decades and oh my god, what staff and students thought they could say about my minor armpit tufts, or unshaven legs. For years I had to be relatively demure in my responses. I used a kind of dismissive wit to make people feel really out of order without telling them to simply go fuck themselves, like “these observations about your teacher, and your thoughts on how I should be appearing in your range of vision sound like they should go in your diary. And if you are taking the time to write critical comments on my appearance in your diary, I’d really reflect on that.’
My grandmother was always saying ‘oh you used to have such lovely hair, why would you do that to it?’ Or ‘you’d be so pretty if you just…’
In my thirties i came into my rage.
The last time she did it to me, I said ‘Grandma, could you stop saying horrible things to me? Can you do that? Because the last thing I would think to say to you as you put purple through your grey hair or perm your flat, thin hair is ‘oh you look terrible and used to be pretty’ because it.would.be.very.very.fucking.rude. And completely disrespectful.” She didn’t do it again.
My mother and father had a skinny child in me, and when I finally could eat what I wanted when I left home I put on a marginal amount of weight. My podgy parents couldn’t stop crapping on about all the alleged weight and I used to slide away from confrontation. Last time my dad did it in the most ‘you’re getting a fat ass on ya’ commentary I said ‘will you just for a fucking minute look at the gene pool I’m dealing with’ stormed out, got in my car and drove away. And ate what I felt like eating ever after. People with power over you, or who have historically had power of you exert the power through criticism, expecting none in return. It’s an exercise in domination.
Domination via critiquing female presentation is a key part of patriarchy. Burn it down. Each woman who stands against this in their own life, is doing something for all who are freighted with the domination ideology of patriarchy.
Finding my rage enough to lose it sometimes with repeat offenders like family was a way for me to find power in relationships that had been a one-sided domination for three decades. I stopped avoiding swearing, I stopped smiling at this crap. I stopped deferring. And I perfected the lines: ‘I’d like you to speak to me with respect and care, can you do that?’ It really makes the offender pause because a yes/no answer option really lays out the foundation of what they think their rights are over your feelings.
posted by honey-barbara at 4:56 PM on March 7, 2023 [23 favorites]
I've been trying to think because I have this issue too. I feel this way about so many social injustices, peoples' reaction to my (similar) gender presentation being the least of them.
I think one answer is to recognize that the only person I can control is myself.
posted by aniola at 5:18 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think one answer is to recognize that the only person I can control is myself.
posted by aniola at 5:18 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I used to have this issue and was trying to think of what changed and.. oh, right, I moved a 5 hour flight away. I'm sorry, I don't have better advice. When I go back and visit family I send clips of conversations people try to have at me to my friends and they are shocked. When I first moved here I'd warn dates I don't shave my legs and get a very puzzled "...ok?" back. No one cares. Every female friend I have here at one point shaved their head bald for kicks. People literally crossed the street to avoid me before, now they'd take my hair (or lack thereof) as a reason to talk to me.
I tried rage at people and what ended up happening is assholes negging me on purpose to upset me as a joke. I guess it's a good way to understand what type of person you're dealing with, but it's devastating when you can't find people who aren't utter garbage. Especially when they are family. My therapist told me rage is a reaction to feeling powerless. That struck a chord.
All I can offer is sympathy and the hope you find your people.
posted by Dynex at 5:42 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
I tried rage at people and what ended up happening is assholes negging me on purpose to upset me as a joke. I guess it's a good way to understand what type of person you're dealing with, but it's devastating when you can't find people who aren't utter garbage. Especially when they are family. My therapist told me rage is a reaction to feeling powerless. That struck a chord.
All I can offer is sympathy and the hope you find your people.
posted by Dynex at 5:42 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
Outstanding answers here. On a slightly different point, I don't know how you feel about your in-laws, in general, but in my view, in-law relationships are very conditional. This would be your golden opportunity to peace out, with cause, and enjoy that extra time in your life now that you're not associating with those particular assholes.
posted by Jess the Mess at 5:45 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Jess the Mess at 5:45 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I like these answers. I do recommend finding a dance community that embraces folks dancing both roles or even "switch" (changing roles midway through a dance, which takes real communication to do smoothly). A queer-friendly / gender-neutral dance community often has that built right in, if you can find one. If that's not a thing in your area, something not led, or just nopeing out on dancing with leaders who you don't feel good about following.
And then - and this applies to everything dumb that people are hassling you about - if you can pull it off, the blank faced return awkward to sender is really satisfying. "Oh, what an odd thing for you to be concerned about." "Nah, I just don't think we make a good dance pair, why are you being weird about this?" "My... Clothes? They're clothes. You seem really fixated on this!"
posted by Lady Li at 5:57 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
And then - and this applies to everything dumb that people are hassling you about - if you can pull it off, the blank faced return awkward to sender is really satisfying. "Oh, what an odd thing for you to be concerned about." "Nah, I just don't think we make a good dance pair, why are you being weird about this?" "My... Clothes? They're clothes. You seem really fixated on this!"
posted by Lady Li at 5:57 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Are these people your family, coworkers, or friends? Besides your family, can you change the crowd you’re around? I don’t wear makeup or dress very well, and my arms are covered with thick dark hair but I never get comments like what you described. My crowd is casual, nerdy, ethnically diverse, etc. which may have something to do with it?
I totally believe your experience because the few times I have ventured into more stereotypically mainstream spaces, I have seen the tendencies you described (and then run far away).
posted by redlines at 6:33 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I totally believe your experience because the few times I have ventured into more stereotypically mainstream spaces, I have seen the tendencies you described (and then run far away).
posted by redlines at 6:33 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are you by any chance in your 30s or 40s? I noticed this type of anger as I entered my mid-30s and here are some things I've noticed:
Conventional (white? western? American?) norms of femininity prioritize young-ness. Not just the physical appearance of (white) youth (smooth skin, shiny hair, slim body), though that's a big part of it, but qualities like innocence, eagerness to please, deference to authority, only silly rebelliousness or acting out (never assertiveness). Once she's out of her 20s, a woman held to these standards can't be understood as an expert, she's a know-it-all. She doesn't have the body of a woman approaching middle-age, she's let herself go. She's not setting boundaries, she's a humorless bitch. When she was younger, she genuinely had some of these qualities--it's hard not to seem innocent when you're actually innocent--so she wasn't called out as harshly for not being feminine enough. As a woman's appearance shifts from naturally youthful-looking to naturally showing some signs of aging (and requiring increasing efforts to mimic youthfulness), she's also reaching personal and professional milestones that invite seeing herself as an expert, being assertive, and otherwise not "acting feminine."
I went to a department store in 2022, after two years of not shopping indoors, and was shocked to see a large ad for handbags featuring a very young model seemingly nude with strategically placed bags. It wasn't the amount of bare skin that stopped me, but the age of the girl in the picture. She looked maybe 15, and it was pretty upsetting. It made me realize how much I've just tuned out over the years. I'm thinking about 22-y.o. Jennifer Lawrence playing in Silver Linings Playbook opposite 37-y.o. Bradley Cooper. There are a million examples. It's not just about showcasing young faces and bodies (that conform to white supremacist norms) as the feminine ideal, it's about keeping the spotlight on girls and young women who you wouldn't assume to be mature, wise, expert, etc. because it's actually totally appropriate for their age to be learning, making mistakes, and acting impulsively. We're meant to see them as women and girls at the same time.
I don't know what to do with this except to keep reminding myself that a lot of people stand to profit off my misery if I accept these impossible standards. When people I care about make comments, I try to shut it down without trying to convince them I'm right. They don't need to believe I'm feminine enough, they just need to respect my boundaries (e.g., "I don't want to talk about that").
posted by theotherdurassister at 6:40 PM on March 7, 2023 [13 favorites]
Conventional (white? western? American?) norms of femininity prioritize young-ness. Not just the physical appearance of (white) youth (smooth skin, shiny hair, slim body), though that's a big part of it, but qualities like innocence, eagerness to please, deference to authority, only silly rebelliousness or acting out (never assertiveness). Once she's out of her 20s, a woman held to these standards can't be understood as an expert, she's a know-it-all. She doesn't have the body of a woman approaching middle-age, she's let herself go. She's not setting boundaries, she's a humorless bitch. When she was younger, she genuinely had some of these qualities--it's hard not to seem innocent when you're actually innocent--so she wasn't called out as harshly for not being feminine enough. As a woman's appearance shifts from naturally youthful-looking to naturally showing some signs of aging (and requiring increasing efforts to mimic youthfulness), she's also reaching personal and professional milestones that invite seeing herself as an expert, being assertive, and otherwise not "acting feminine."
I went to a department store in 2022, after two years of not shopping indoors, and was shocked to see a large ad for handbags featuring a very young model seemingly nude with strategically placed bags. It wasn't the amount of bare skin that stopped me, but the age of the girl in the picture. She looked maybe 15, and it was pretty upsetting. It made me realize how much I've just tuned out over the years. I'm thinking about 22-y.o. Jennifer Lawrence playing in Silver Linings Playbook opposite 37-y.o. Bradley Cooper. There are a million examples. It's not just about showcasing young faces and bodies (that conform to white supremacist norms) as the feminine ideal, it's about keeping the spotlight on girls and young women who you wouldn't assume to be mature, wise, expert, etc. because it's actually totally appropriate for their age to be learning, making mistakes, and acting impulsively. We're meant to see them as women and girls at the same time.
I don't know what to do with this except to keep reminding myself that a lot of people stand to profit off my misery if I accept these impossible standards. When people I care about make comments, I try to shut it down without trying to convince them I'm right. They don't need to believe I'm feminine enough, they just need to respect my boundaries (e.g., "I don't want to talk about that").
posted by theotherdurassister at 6:40 PM on March 7, 2023 [13 favorites]
In addition to telling people straight up to not talk to you in disrespectful and inappropriate ways (I like many people here had an older relative who always, always, always commented on weight/appearance within the first 5 minutes and I got to the point, where I would just say, "I'm not interested," "I don't want to talk about that," "don't comment on my appearance good or bad.") I encourage you to surround yourself with images of women who don't follow the ridiculous norms/standards the culture sets for us. Here are some starting points.
Hard Hatted Woman - about women in the trades.
Richard Avedon's In the American West.
Carrie Mae Weem's Kitchen Table Series
Baghdad Cafe
posted by brookeb at 7:04 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hard Hatted Woman - about women in the trades.
Richard Avedon's In the American West.
Carrie Mae Weem's Kitchen Table Series
Baghdad Cafe
posted by brookeb at 7:04 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Basically what I’m wondering is what makes you feel better about all this, if you do in fact feel better?
I just truly don’t give a shit what anyone else thinks. And if they say rude things, I snap right back at them. For instance: “I really don’t give a fuck what you think.” Because to paraphrase Major Frank Burns, “It’s not rude to be rude to the rude.”
The last man who ordered me to smile got me turning on him fiercely and yelling “Fuck off! And if you say one more word to me, I’m going to rip off your testicles and feed them to you for lunch!” When, a few minutes later, he had the misfortune to be walking right past where I was headed on my way out, I hissed at him that if he didn’t get the hell away from me, I was calling the cops. The fear in his eyes was beautiful and I felt good about it for several days, because that’s one guy who will never order another woman to smile.
It’s your life, not theirs. Live it how you want to. And if anyone yells at you about your dancing, yell right back. No one has the right to speak to you the way these people have been.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:05 PM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
I just truly don’t give a shit what anyone else thinks. And if they say rude things, I snap right back at them. For instance: “I really don’t give a fuck what you think.” Because to paraphrase Major Frank Burns, “It’s not rude to be rude to the rude.”
The last man who ordered me to smile got me turning on him fiercely and yelling “Fuck off! And if you say one more word to me, I’m going to rip off your testicles and feed them to you for lunch!” When, a few minutes later, he had the misfortune to be walking right past where I was headed on my way out, I hissed at him that if he didn’t get the hell away from me, I was calling the cops. The fear in his eyes was beautiful and I felt good about it for several days, because that’s one guy who will never order another woman to smile.
It’s your life, not theirs. Live it how you want to. And if anyone yells at you about your dancing, yell right back. No one has the right to speak to you the way these people have been.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:05 PM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
I know it’s a bit silly that it pisses me off more *because* the acts are so minor, but the degree of cultural enforcement of these petty, stupid things always leaves me aghast.
Me too.
Near as I can tell, the upstream outfall where most of this shit enters the cultural river belongs to the advertising industry, and I've channelled my resentment at being made to swim amongst so many floating turds into a lifelong attempt to insulate myself from direct exposure to that industry's work product to the greatest extent possible.
In general, whenever I'm feeling a bit miserable the first question I'll ask is who benefits from my feeling that way? Whose product am I being encouraged to consume right now to alleviate my misery, and what are the chances that this particular form of misery did not even exist until that product and its advertisers first appeared in the culture?
The really insidious thing about the advertising industry is just how astonishingly keen so many people are to work for it for nothing. Every time I see some grooming-obsessed oaf proudly showing off their Statement Clothes with some billionaire's logo prominently displayed, I die a little inside.
I am at the point where every time they say some shitty thing, I pretty much want to psychologically destroy them.
Zero hesitation before "oh fuck off" works wonders. "Fuck you very much" is good too. And if anybody has the temerity to suggest that you'd be better off for shaving some body hair, you have the Internet's blessing to suggest to them that they'd be better off for shaving some shitty opinions.
"I hear what you say and I'll take that on board" is the workplace-acceptable version of that same sentiment, if you find yourself in need of such a thing.
posted by flabdablet at 8:09 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Me too.
Near as I can tell, the upstream outfall where most of this shit enters the cultural river belongs to the advertising industry, and I've channelled my resentment at being made to swim amongst so many floating turds into a lifelong attempt to insulate myself from direct exposure to that industry's work product to the greatest extent possible.
In general, whenever I'm feeling a bit miserable the first question I'll ask is who benefits from my feeling that way? Whose product am I being encouraged to consume right now to alleviate my misery, and what are the chances that this particular form of misery did not even exist until that product and its advertisers first appeared in the culture?
The really insidious thing about the advertising industry is just how astonishingly keen so many people are to work for it for nothing. Every time I see some grooming-obsessed oaf proudly showing off their Statement Clothes with some billionaire's logo prominently displayed, I die a little inside.
I am at the point where every time they say some shitty thing, I pretty much want to psychologically destroy them.
Zero hesitation before "oh fuck off" works wonders. "Fuck you very much" is good too. And if anybody has the temerity to suggest that you'd be better off for shaving some body hair, you have the Internet's blessing to suggest to them that they'd be better off for shaving some shitty opinions.
"I hear what you say and I'll take that on board" is the workplace-acceptable version of that same sentiment, if you find yourself in need of such a thing.
posted by flabdablet at 8:09 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Your concerns are noted." Then just keep on doing whatever you're doing.
posted by bunji at 9:10 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bunji at 9:10 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I’d be so tempted to turn it on them. As in, the next time they say that you should shave your legs, just say, ok, but you need to lose twenty pounds for me first! You don’t mind me saying that, do you? I mean we’re just helping each other look better, aren’t we?! Aren’t we? Or you know, maybe we can just keep our opinions to our selves from now on…
The fact that they feel comfortable putting conditions on your appearance is outrageous and some people are so steeped in misogyny that until they experience that kind of talk themselves, they’ll probably just keep doing it.
posted by Jubey at 9:29 PM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
The fact that they feel comfortable putting conditions on your appearance is outrageous and some people are so steeped in misogyny that until they experience that kind of talk themselves, they’ll probably just keep doing it.
posted by Jubey at 9:29 PM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm in my 40s, female, and very uninterested in traditionally feminine things. I do the bare minimum to present as female. I am in a disfunctional relationship because [reasons]. My default internal mood for YEARS has been somewhere between ICE COLD ANGER and SEETHING RAGE. So I hear you.
You've gotten a lot of excellent advice. I'd like to add to the mix: adopt the stance and confidence of a stereotypical white middle-aged man. Somebody criticizing you? There's no way a white middle-aged man (or you) could have any faults, so it must be a flaw in their logic, or they're stupid, or they're jealous and trying to bring you down. Family saying shitty things? A white middle-aged man would "give it to them straight" and tell them exactly what he (or you) thinks about it.
As far as more internally-oriented stuff goes, I have gotten a lot of mileage out of keeping a "rage diary". I took the cheapest, most functional, not-particularly-nice notebook I found (so I wouldn't feel like I have to take good care of it or write nice things in it) and whenever I felt anger bubbling up (which was often), I spewed a torrent of incoherent rage at the paper. I wrote in detail about what I felt, why I felt that way, what I would do about the situation in an ideal scenario, exactly what I thought about people involved in the situation... I usually felt a lot better after 10-15 minutes of writing. I never looked back at what I wrote, to minimize the chances of reigniting the anger.
posted by gakiko at 10:54 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
You've gotten a lot of excellent advice. I'd like to add to the mix: adopt the stance and confidence of a stereotypical white middle-aged man. Somebody criticizing you? There's no way a white middle-aged man (or you) could have any faults, so it must be a flaw in their logic, or they're stupid, or they're jealous and trying to bring you down. Family saying shitty things? A white middle-aged man would "give it to them straight" and tell them exactly what he (or you) thinks about it.
As far as more internally-oriented stuff goes, I have gotten a lot of mileage out of keeping a "rage diary". I took the cheapest, most functional, not-particularly-nice notebook I found (so I wouldn't feel like I have to take good care of it or write nice things in it) and whenever I felt anger bubbling up (which was often), I spewed a torrent of incoherent rage at the paper. I wrote in detail about what I felt, why I felt that way, what I would do about the situation in an ideal scenario, exactly what I thought about people involved in the situation... I usually felt a lot better after 10-15 minutes of writing. I never looked back at what I wrote, to minimize the chances of reigniting the anger.
posted by gakiko at 10:54 PM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
OK, Who are these people tormenting you, and May I please go yell at them for you?
B: You are hilarious. And awesome.
posted by amtho at 10:57 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
B: You are hilarious. And awesome.
posted by amtho at 10:57 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
whenever someone tries to suggest I'm ugly or unfeminine I simply agree "yes, I am a horrible little goblin" and cackle with glee about it
most people are too disturbed by this response to make further comments
posted by Jacqueline at 12:57 AM on March 8, 2023 [23 favorites]
most people are too disturbed by this response to make further comments
posted by Jacqueline at 12:57 AM on March 8, 2023 [23 favorites]
Anyone who you are not currently in a sexual relationship with who expresses an opinion about the hair on your head, armpits, legs or elsewhere is an arsehole.
(Exception: doctors/dermatologists if it is medically relevant)
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 3:58 AM on March 8, 2023
(Exception: doctors/dermatologists if it is medically relevant)
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 3:58 AM on March 8, 2023
Even a sexual relationship does not give someone a vote on how you choose to groom your various hair (unless you want to give them a vote). Your bodily autonomy is YOURS ALONE.
posted by rikschell at 4:33 AM on March 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 4:33 AM on March 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: A poor workman blames his tools. When someone accuses you of being bad at following you can immediately and effusively assure them that they ARE TOO good at leading. Only that would be passive aggressive.
If multiple people are accusing you of not being a good follower, then I am guessing you do pairs dancing with people as a social activity, and change partners a lot, and the leaders in your group are not as good as the followers, who have essentially been topping from the bottom and putting themselves in the right position so that the leader can believe they put them there.
A good leader can adapt to their partner, and in fact adapts instinctively, giving firmer guidance to someone unfamiliar with the dance and signalling changes earlier and more clearly, and less rapidly. A good leader can work with a partner who is stiff, or doesn't have the muscle memory for the turns. A good leaders has multiple ways of signaling direction, speed and distance.
If you are stiff there may be a lot of stomach in the way which means you can't get close enough to your partner to get guidance from their frame. What they may mean by telling you you are stiff is that you need to squish up close to them, which can be unpleasantly intimate, but also doesn't always work because you can't feel their core. At this point a good leader has to use other means of communicating, and can and does.
Stiffness is necessary. Spine position and alignment need to be deliberate and something you are very, very conscious of. This is called frame. It is much easier to dance gracefully with a plank than with a snake or with a bag of water. Your partners are not good dancers, or they would figure out how you work and what you can do and work with that instead of criticizing you. They sound like they basically want to haul you around and dominate. They want control but they are not taking it, so what they really want is for you to do the work for them.
You probably understand the mechanics of dance better than I do.
If you are stiff there may be a trust issue going on. If there is a trust issue, listen to it. If you mistrust them and they attack with criticism then you have proven your point, that this is not a safe, supportive, capable person.
Try dancing with other followers and see how that goes. If you haven't done it before, you may learn something about the signalling people do while pair dancing. I am pretty sure it will reflect badly on the people who are pretending to lead, failing at it and then blaming you.
As for the comments about your body hair, that's another tell. Sex in the City concluded airing in 2004. That is about when shaving peaked. People who have problems with body hair are either stuck in the past, or are taking their standards from porn. Enough women don't shave that the norms are so thoroughly changed that complaining you don't shave is like complaining that you don't dye blonde or that you don't wear miniskirts.
Instead of feeling hurt, realise that the people who are saying these things are not your allies. They are deliberately tearing you down as a power move. Stop and stare at them when they say these things and think about the fact that allies and friends who are good for us say supportive things. You've got a bunch of people harassing you. Of course you feel crappy. There's not a thing wrong with your appearance and your choices. You were made perfect and you are still perfect. So there is something very, very wrong with them and their behavior.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:55 AM on March 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
If multiple people are accusing you of not being a good follower, then I am guessing you do pairs dancing with people as a social activity, and change partners a lot, and the leaders in your group are not as good as the followers, who have essentially been topping from the bottom and putting themselves in the right position so that the leader can believe they put them there.
A good leader can adapt to their partner, and in fact adapts instinctively, giving firmer guidance to someone unfamiliar with the dance and signalling changes earlier and more clearly, and less rapidly. A good leader can work with a partner who is stiff, or doesn't have the muscle memory for the turns. A good leaders has multiple ways of signaling direction, speed and distance.
If you are stiff there may be a lot of stomach in the way which means you can't get close enough to your partner to get guidance from their frame. What they may mean by telling you you are stiff is that you need to squish up close to them, which can be unpleasantly intimate, but also doesn't always work because you can't feel their core. At this point a good leader has to use other means of communicating, and can and does.
Stiffness is necessary. Spine position and alignment need to be deliberate and something you are very, very conscious of. This is called frame. It is much easier to dance gracefully with a plank than with a snake or with a bag of water. Your partners are not good dancers, or they would figure out how you work and what you can do and work with that instead of criticizing you. They sound like they basically want to haul you around and dominate. They want control but they are not taking it, so what they really want is for you to do the work for them.
You probably understand the mechanics of dance better than I do.
If you are stiff there may be a trust issue going on. If there is a trust issue, listen to it. If you mistrust them and they attack with criticism then you have proven your point, that this is not a safe, supportive, capable person.
Try dancing with other followers and see how that goes. If you haven't done it before, you may learn something about the signalling people do while pair dancing. I am pretty sure it will reflect badly on the people who are pretending to lead, failing at it and then blaming you.
As for the comments about your body hair, that's another tell. Sex in the City concluded airing in 2004. That is about when shaving peaked. People who have problems with body hair are either stuck in the past, or are taking their standards from porn. Enough women don't shave that the norms are so thoroughly changed that complaining you don't shave is like complaining that you don't dye blonde or that you don't wear miniskirts.
Instead of feeling hurt, realise that the people who are saying these things are not your allies. They are deliberately tearing you down as a power move. Stop and stare at them when they say these things and think about the fact that allies and friends who are good for us say supportive things. You've got a bunch of people harassing you. Of course you feel crappy. There's not a thing wrong with your appearance and your choices. You were made perfect and you are still perfect. So there is something very, very wrong with them and their behavior.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:55 AM on March 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Greetings from Crone Island -- we have cake and all the good dance music!
As my mother often said:
"I don't sleep with you and I don't owe you money. So what do you actually expect from me -- because you're not going to get it!"
Also, heavens above, feminine/masculine is so entirely subjective. It changes through history, through geography, through culture. There is no single perfect norm. There never will be.
If you say it's feminine -- it is!
Please don't waste your energy on silly people. They never learn. Let them go their odd, silly way and be glad you don't owe them money or....
Living well is the best revenge.
posted by TrishaU at 5:08 AM on March 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
As my mother often said:
"I don't sleep with you and I don't owe you money. So what do you actually expect from me -- because you're not going to get it!"
Also, heavens above, feminine/masculine is so entirely subjective. It changes through history, through geography, through culture. There is no single perfect norm. There never will be.
If you say it's feminine -- it is!
Please don't waste your energy on silly people. They never learn. Let them go their odd, silly way and be glad you don't owe them money or....
Living well is the best revenge.
posted by TrishaU at 5:08 AM on March 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
After setting boundaries and halting destructive comments (which you've gotten great answers about), I found it helpful to immerse myself in other cultures that have different beauty standards.
Watch their movies (in their native language with subtitles) and viral videos. Look at their memes and jokes. Read books by authors in that culture. It made me internalize that a person considered undeniably beautiful in one culture could be considered plain in another culture.
If you're surrounded by people and media in one culture, you start to think that "everyone" must believe in the same beauty standard. It starts to feel like an objective scale, and that people are politely lying when they say "supermodels are too thin" or "I think you're just as beautiful as supermodel X".
Think of a celebrity that your family would say is unquestionably gorgeous. It's helpful to internalize that there are billions of people who truly feel differently. If we used an MRI to measure their brain, we'd confirm they do not think your celebrity is beautiful. Instead their brain lights up for a woman who's popular in their culture. If you looked at photos of that woman versus 30 others from that culture, you wouldn't understand why she's considered more beautiful. Meanwhile, the people in the MRI are flabbergasted, "What?! You're looking at the photos and you can't see that X is objectively far hotter?"
posted by sandwich at 7:34 AM on March 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Watch their movies (in their native language with subtitles) and viral videos. Look at their memes and jokes. Read books by authors in that culture. It made me internalize that a person considered undeniably beautiful in one culture could be considered plain in another culture.
If you're surrounded by people and media in one culture, you start to think that "everyone" must believe in the same beauty standard. It starts to feel like an objective scale, and that people are politely lying when they say "supermodels are too thin" or "I think you're just as beautiful as supermodel X".
Think of a celebrity that your family would say is unquestionably gorgeous. It's helpful to internalize that there are billions of people who truly feel differently. If we used an MRI to measure their brain, we'd confirm they do not think your celebrity is beautiful. Instead their brain lights up for a woman who's popular in their culture. If you looked at photos of that woman versus 30 others from that culture, you wouldn't understand why she's considered more beautiful. Meanwhile, the people in the MRI are flabbergasted, "What?! You're looking at the photos and you can't see that X is objectively far hotter?"
posted by sandwich at 7:34 AM on March 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
This feels like an opportunity for an improv "line game", where one starting dialog line is a cue for people to come up with lots and lots of fun responses.
I'm not going to stick to just one cue line, but here are some examples of things that make me feel better:
-------------------------
I'm not a bad follower...I'm a lead-portunity!
I'm not stiff...I'm interpreting!
I'm not stiff...but what does that say about you (ho-HO!)?
My brain is working too hard to explain why I need to think! Please just let me do this my way?
(Inspired by Steve Martin replying to a heckler) I remember my first time encountering taste -- it gets easier!
I remember last time I criticized someone in public -- I don't live in that town anymore, though, so I don't have to relive it every day.
I remember last time I criticized someone like that -- I felt better after a bath and a good meal.
Hey, now, we both know my point of view is my own, and completely valid, so what's really bothering you, friend?
[To the idea that no one could love a woman with firm opinions] It's one of the great mysteries of life that we can never really know how good other people's relationships are. Since relationships are on your mind, do you want to talk about yours?
Hey, hey, no matter how awesome I am, don't worry, I'll still be family!
posted by amtho at 9:43 AM on March 8, 2023
I'm not going to stick to just one cue line, but here are some examples of things that make me feel better:
-------------------------
I'm not a bad follower...I'm a lead-portunity!
I'm not stiff...I'm interpreting!
I'm not stiff...but what does that say about you (ho-HO!)?
My brain is working too hard to explain why I need to think! Please just let me do this my way?
(Inspired by Steve Martin replying to a heckler) I remember my first time encountering taste -- it gets easier!
I remember last time I criticized someone in public -- I don't live in that town anymore, though, so I don't have to relive it every day.
I remember last time I criticized someone like that -- I felt better after a bath and a good meal.
Hey, now, we both know my point of view is my own, and completely valid, so what's really bothering you, friend?
[To the idea that no one could love a woman with firm opinions] It's one of the great mysteries of life that we can never really know how good other people's relationships are. Since relationships are on your mind, do you want to talk about yours?
Hey, hey, no matter how awesome I am, don't worry, I'll still be family!
posted by amtho at 9:43 AM on March 8, 2023
I'm so sorry you've experienced this. I thought it was no longer a thing, and that I'd experienced it when I was young only because I was around in the seventies and eighties. My trans woman friends are astonished to learn that cis women were ever told they weren't "real women" because they didn't perform femininity extremely enough.
posted by metonym at 10:40 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by metonym at 10:40 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
It sounds like it's your female relatives dishing this shit out, is that correct?
Female relatives were the only ones who ever dished it out to me.
It's more about family dynamics than about femininity expectations. If you were grooming or dressing more elaborately they'd have something to say about that, trust. These women may very well love you but their version of love includes this nasty edge. Partly it's because they feel your appearance reflects on them; but mostly because of the pecking order instincts which all people possess, but only very few situations permit women to indulge... and women doing it to their close female relatives is one of those rare situations, in many families.
Anyway, 100% sign on to a disdainful look and "that's a very rude thing to say," escalating if necessary to "you're behaving very rudely. What gives you the idea that it's ok to speak to me that way?" and "is that how manners were taught in your family? How extraordinary."
And as far as your internal reaction, do try to remember that what comes out of these people's mouths is just a fraction of the ugliness that lives in their head the whole time, directed at themselves.
(I think the dancing is a different thing.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:18 PM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Female relatives were the only ones who ever dished it out to me.
It's more about family dynamics than about femininity expectations. If you were grooming or dressing more elaborately they'd have something to say about that, trust. These women may very well love you but their version of love includes this nasty edge. Partly it's because they feel your appearance reflects on them; but mostly because of the pecking order instincts which all people possess, but only very few situations permit women to indulge... and women doing it to their close female relatives is one of those rare situations, in many families.
Anyway, 100% sign on to a disdainful look and "that's a very rude thing to say," escalating if necessary to "you're behaving very rudely. What gives you the idea that it's ok to speak to me that way?" and "is that how manners were taught in your family? How extraordinary."
And as far as your internal reaction, do try to remember that what comes out of these people's mouths is just a fraction of the ugliness that lives in their head the whole time, directed at themselves.
(I think the dancing is a different thing.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:18 PM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I basically dealt with this by writing a book about it. Did it help? Not in the sense that it made any of it go away, but yes in the sense that it required me to be very precise and firm about why the expectations were bullshit and what I was getting out of rejecting them, and helped me create a cohesive framework for what that rejection might look like (i.e. not just "fuck you I won't do what you tell me" but something more constructive). "Acceptable femininity" is a moving target that is designed never to be hit, but even if it were achievable, it's small by design. Creating an image for yourself of what it would mean to reject constraints helps you really understand the cage for what it is.
posted by babelfish at 8:45 PM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by babelfish at 8:45 PM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am late to this party, but glad that so many folks have provided so many scripts and options. I feel rage for you, and hope you appropriately call shame to the hearts of these people suffering enough from bullshit expectations that they try to fob it off on you. Fuck that noise.
On the topic of dance, though, I feel much more strongly than the comments above, and would like to offer you a perspective from at least the lindy-hop/swing dance community. We had a major reckoning with sexual harassment, abuse, and assault a number of years back, and the conversation that began then began to finally make space for people who had been pointing out other bullshit in our scenes for years: racism, sexism, fatphobia, homophobia, ableism, you name it. There is tons of work still to be done, but it’s pretty much standard practice at this point for venues/events to have a Code of Conduct. I would not dance at a venue/event that didn’t have one. In lindy hop/swing dance scenes, correcting a partner, much less YELLING at them, is UNACCEPTABLE.
Apart from the fact that it’s rude and chips away at the pool of customers (who the fuck wants to come back and pay to dance with patners like that?!)… this is one of the most common low-key predatory tactics used in scenes around the world, usually by male leads against female followers. It’s a neg, and the leads who use it are often intermediates trying to assert power over women in beginner/intermediate levels. In the worst cases, it’s a tactic used to intimidate and control young, impressionable dancers, who *want* to be considered good dancers, want to learn, want to please.
If a lead tells me I’m “doing it wrong”, the dance STOPS, immediately. Their response tells me whether I point them out to the venue coordinator by name and face, but the venue coordinator is going to hear that there are dancers on the floor that are giving unsolicited advice to partners. If the lead gets shitty about it, a good venue will talk to them directly and then observe them over time, and issue a ban if they can’t follow the Code of Conduct.
If a lead does something dangerous with my body - leading me into a dip without asking, yanking my arm - the dance stops. If a lead cops a feel or doesn’t acknowledge/apologize a major boob touch, the dance stops. I expect the same from them, should I or any other follow dance dangerously or act like a jerk. Social dance is about caring for each other through music and movement.
I’m an old and an advanced dancer, which helps me have no fucks to give, but I strongly endorse not putting up with this shit in your community. Leads can either learn how to partner dance like grownups or get the fuck out. No more missing stairs.
If the spaces where you dance don’t have codes of conduct, and you’d like info about how dance scenes can set them up, send me a message and I’d be glad to connect you to the scads of conversations that have been had about this in swing dance over the past ten years.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 9:41 PM on March 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
On the topic of dance, though, I feel much more strongly than the comments above, and would like to offer you a perspective from at least the lindy-hop/swing dance community. We had a major reckoning with sexual harassment, abuse, and assault a number of years back, and the conversation that began then began to finally make space for people who had been pointing out other bullshit in our scenes for years: racism, sexism, fatphobia, homophobia, ableism, you name it. There is tons of work still to be done, but it’s pretty much standard practice at this point for venues/events to have a Code of Conduct. I would not dance at a venue/event that didn’t have one. In lindy hop/swing dance scenes, correcting a partner, much less YELLING at them, is UNACCEPTABLE.
Apart from the fact that it’s rude and chips away at the pool of customers (who the fuck wants to come back and pay to dance with patners like that?!)… this is one of the most common low-key predatory tactics used in scenes around the world, usually by male leads against female followers. It’s a neg, and the leads who use it are often intermediates trying to assert power over women in beginner/intermediate levels. In the worst cases, it’s a tactic used to intimidate and control young, impressionable dancers, who *want* to be considered good dancers, want to learn, want to please.
If a lead tells me I’m “doing it wrong”, the dance STOPS, immediately. Their response tells me whether I point them out to the venue coordinator by name and face, but the venue coordinator is going to hear that there are dancers on the floor that are giving unsolicited advice to partners. If the lead gets shitty about it, a good venue will talk to them directly and then observe them over time, and issue a ban if they can’t follow the Code of Conduct.
If a lead does something dangerous with my body - leading me into a dip without asking, yanking my arm - the dance stops. If a lead cops a feel or doesn’t acknowledge/apologize a major boob touch, the dance stops. I expect the same from them, should I or any other follow dance dangerously or act like a jerk. Social dance is about caring for each other through music and movement.
I’m an old and an advanced dancer, which helps me have no fucks to give, but I strongly endorse not putting up with this shit in your community. Leads can either learn how to partner dance like grownups or get the fuck out. No more missing stairs.
If the spaces where you dance don’t have codes of conduct, and you’d like info about how dance scenes can set them up, send me a message and I’d be glad to connect you to the scads of conversations that have been had about this in swing dance over the past ten years.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 9:41 PM on March 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
A relevant McSweeney’s listicle for entertainment and commiseration: 17 real life would you rathers I, a woman, have had to ask myself
posted by eviemath at 5:03 AM on March 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 5:03 AM on March 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I am really sorry that you seem to be beset with misogynistic assholes. You do not deserve this, nor does anyone!
I can’t imagine living as someone with darker body hair, or someone whose style connotes any degree of gender flexibility or transition.
I'm one of these people, and actually, it's pretty great. Maybe I'm reading too much into this comment, but it really stuck out to me because it's the kind of comment I see a lot as a visibly trans/non-binary person. Whenever I see comments like this, I always have a small bit of curiosity about whether the person who said it actually wants to perform gender in a way that is less traditional, more intentional, but doesn't feel comfortable doing so.
When I was younger (like pre-40), I presented somewhat similarly to you, I think, and while I didn't get as many nasty comments as you, I definitely got comments, or friends offering to help me with makeup, etc. When I cut my hair and started dressing more explicitly masculinely, I got a LOT fewer negative comments about my appearance. I think the reasons for it are pretty complex, but partly, I think it helped ensure that people don't just see me as a "failed woman." Which, ugh, is so gross, and not at all a reason to change your gender expression! But I guess I just wanna say this in case there's even a small part of you that wants to do something that seems more bold with your gender presentation, but the backlash you've already gotten makes that seem impossible or too risky.
And I don't want to understate the risk of being gender non-conforming either, especially in places like the US and the UK right now! But I think either way, it's really important to find a way to be really proud of how you exist in the world, and let that pride protect you from the dumb opinions of people who don't really matter. You got a lot of great advice about boundary-setting here, but I think part of it is just getting clear on whose opinions of your appearance matter to you and whose don't.
Also, I wonder if you have the ability to more carefully cultivate who you spend time around. Can you seek out communities where appearances are less important, or where people take pride in cultivating appearances outside the norm? And can you spend less time around in-laws and family who say shitty things to you? I know what an awesome person you are from years of reading your comments here and you deserve to be around people who see that.
posted by lunasol at 5:11 PM on March 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can’t imagine living as someone with darker body hair, or someone whose style connotes any degree of gender flexibility or transition.
I'm one of these people, and actually, it's pretty great. Maybe I'm reading too much into this comment, but it really stuck out to me because it's the kind of comment I see a lot as a visibly trans/non-binary person. Whenever I see comments like this, I always have a small bit of curiosity about whether the person who said it actually wants to perform gender in a way that is less traditional, more intentional, but doesn't feel comfortable doing so.
When I was younger (like pre-40), I presented somewhat similarly to you, I think, and while I didn't get as many nasty comments as you, I definitely got comments, or friends offering to help me with makeup, etc. When I cut my hair and started dressing more explicitly masculinely, I got a LOT fewer negative comments about my appearance. I think the reasons for it are pretty complex, but partly, I think it helped ensure that people don't just see me as a "failed woman." Which, ugh, is so gross, and not at all a reason to change your gender expression! But I guess I just wanna say this in case there's even a small part of you that wants to do something that seems more bold with your gender presentation, but the backlash you've already gotten makes that seem impossible or too risky.
And I don't want to understate the risk of being gender non-conforming either, especially in places like the US and the UK right now! But I think either way, it's really important to find a way to be really proud of how you exist in the world, and let that pride protect you from the dumb opinions of people who don't really matter. You got a lot of great advice about boundary-setting here, but I think part of it is just getting clear on whose opinions of your appearance matter to you and whose don't.
Also, I wonder if you have the ability to more carefully cultivate who you spend time around. Can you seek out communities where appearances are less important, or where people take pride in cultivating appearances outside the norm? And can you spend less time around in-laws and family who say shitty things to you? I know what an awesome person you are from years of reading your comments here and you deserve to be around people who see that.
posted by lunasol at 5:11 PM on March 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
So, to me it sounds like it might be time to express your opinions, loudly and in no uncertain terms, to the family and in laws that got you to this place. No more "nice" responses to not-nice comments. (Also, a dance lead who criticizes the follower is just a bad dancer -- a good lead, as you've noticed, provides physical scaffolding so you can scarcely help but follow their lead as expected. Don't dance with anyone who criticizes you.)
posted by shadygrove at 2:04 PM on March 7, 2023 [67 favorites]