How do I get my mom out of this equipment rental mess?
January 11, 2023 7:36 AM Subscribe
So I recently found out that my elderly mother has been renting her hot water heater for the last TWENTY YEARS. Worse, she doesn't have a copy of her supposed rental contract and has no idea what the terms are. The company is, unsurprisingly, not very helpful. How do I fix this?
This started when my stepfather was declining and my mom was fully engaged in trying to care for him at home. They had a plumber over at some point and he found that the hot water heater was leaking. My mom was very stressed and had a lot on her hands. She doesn't recall whether she signed something, or perhaps my stepfather did? She just doesn't know. But a truck showed up with a new hot water heater a few weeks later, they installed it, and my mom started paying the monthly bills. My stepfather died not long after that, and I guess my mom decided it was easier to just keep paying than to deal with it. By my math she's now paid something like four times what this thing would have cost to buy outright.
I'd like to take it out and install a new water heater and get her out of this whole mess, but I don't know how to end the deal as we don't have a copy of the (supposed) contract. The company that originally rented her the water heater, Company 1, has since sold their rental business to Company 2, which is who my mom is now paying. I've called Company 2 and their customer service people were not much help. Since they picked her up when they bought the business from Company 1, they don't seem to have very good records, just an address to bill. I requested a copy of my mom's contract and they had no idea. They did say they would send me a copy of their standard terms and conditions, but, surprise, they have not done so. I don't know how much of this is legitimate confusion and how much is them trying to stonewall me. They have little incentive to make this easy as they're collecting money for nothing right now.
What I want to do is write a letter saying we don't believe they have a valid contract with my mother, and so we're going to stop paying the bill, disconnect the hot water heater, and they can come get it if they want. If they want us to do something else, they need to produce a valid contract executed by my mother, and then we'll obviously abide by its terms.
But I'm wary of doing that because they may actually have one, and I have no idea what it commits my mom to. Perhaps there's some clause that subjects her to a huge penalty if she removes the equipment, or something similar. Basically, I need to force Company 2 to either produce a contract so I can follow its instructions for terminating the deal or else admit that they can't and go away. How can I (safely) get them to put up or shut up?
This started when my stepfather was declining and my mom was fully engaged in trying to care for him at home. They had a plumber over at some point and he found that the hot water heater was leaking. My mom was very stressed and had a lot on her hands. She doesn't recall whether she signed something, or perhaps my stepfather did? She just doesn't know. But a truck showed up with a new hot water heater a few weeks later, they installed it, and my mom started paying the monthly bills. My stepfather died not long after that, and I guess my mom decided it was easier to just keep paying than to deal with it. By my math she's now paid something like four times what this thing would have cost to buy outright.
I'd like to take it out and install a new water heater and get her out of this whole mess, but I don't know how to end the deal as we don't have a copy of the (supposed) contract. The company that originally rented her the water heater, Company 1, has since sold their rental business to Company 2, which is who my mom is now paying. I've called Company 2 and their customer service people were not much help. Since they picked her up when they bought the business from Company 1, they don't seem to have very good records, just an address to bill. I requested a copy of my mom's contract and they had no idea. They did say they would send me a copy of their standard terms and conditions, but, surprise, they have not done so. I don't know how much of this is legitimate confusion and how much is them trying to stonewall me. They have little incentive to make this easy as they're collecting money for nothing right now.
What I want to do is write a letter saying we don't believe they have a valid contract with my mother, and so we're going to stop paying the bill, disconnect the hot water heater, and they can come get it if they want. If they want us to do something else, they need to produce a valid contract executed by my mother, and then we'll obviously abide by its terms.
But I'm wary of doing that because they may actually have one, and I have no idea what it commits my mom to. Perhaps there's some clause that subjects her to a huge penalty if she removes the equipment, or something similar. Basically, I need to force Company 2 to either produce a contract so I can follow its instructions for terminating the deal or else admit that they can't and go away. How can I (safely) get them to put up or shut up?
Response by poster: Oh, derp. We are in Virginia.
posted by Naberius at 7:53 AM on January 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Naberius at 7:53 AM on January 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the first step would be to simply call and say that you want to cancel the service and (assuming they want it back) return the equipment; depending on the response you might need to follow that with an email/letter saying the same thing. I wouldn't ask about the contract unless they bring that up as a reason they can't cancel. If they balk or are non-cooperative, then you would start looking at contacting consumer protection offices, talking to a lawyer, etc. But you should start with the easiest option that may well work fairly easily, before diving into the harder steps.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:58 AM on January 11, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 7:58 AM on January 11, 2023 [36 favorites]
Years ago, I got water set up in an apartment, and read the contract. It stated that I could just buy the water heater for $n, so I did. Ask them for the buyout amount, and if they can't provide any documentation, tell them to stop charging rent. Your state attorney general's office should have some sort of consumer assistance; call them for help if you need it.
and complain to your Utilities Commission, Attorney General, etc. What a crappy way to treat people.
posted by theora55 at 8:06 AM on January 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
and complain to your Utilities Commission, Attorney General, etc. What a crappy way to treat people.
posted by theora55 at 8:06 AM on January 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
Also, sometimes going to an office in person is more effective because you can just stand there and expect an answer and not be on hold.
posted by theora55 at 8:10 AM on January 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 8:10 AM on January 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Seconding: Just call them and cancel. If the customer service rep won't/can't, ask for the supervisor and continue up the line. They may try to get you to change your mind, don't even let them make their pitch. Just keep saying, I just want to cancel, nothing will change my mind. Eventually, they will agree to do so. There MAY be a residual buyout cost but after 20 years it won't be much. If it simply equates to a few months worth of rental fees, make the payment and be done with it. If it's higher, refuse to pay that (again, go up the line), hold the line on wishing to cancel, and STOP making all payments. Then go ahead and replace the unit (by the way, check out heat pump water heaters — more expensive up front but way cheaper to operate, if you have an appropriate space for it like a basement). The only real leverage they have, regardless of what the contract might say, is to place some kind of lien on the house, but given the minimal value of the thing, they won't bother.
posted by beagle at 8:11 AM on January 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by beagle at 8:11 AM on January 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Just stop paying the bill. It's up to them to prove you owe them the money and they can't, because by their own admission, they cannot find the contract.
If this goes the long route, they send it to collections (they will not), you dispute the debt and ask them to validate the debt, they go away. Problem solved.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:16 AM on January 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
If this goes the long route, they send it to collections (they will not), you dispute the debt and ask them to validate the debt, they go away. Problem solved.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:16 AM on January 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
I would suggest that if they give you any runaround beyond the 'come over and pick up your disconnected water heater' stage, you simply mention that you have the state Attorney General and newspaper in your speeddial and they probably don't want any articles about exploiting little old ladies to be published so it would be best for everyone involved if they let it go.
The concept that there is 'residual value' in a 20-year-old water heater makes no sense. It's a miracle it's been working that long.
posted by scolbath at 8:20 AM on January 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
The concept that there is 'residual value' in a 20-year-old water heater makes no sense. It's a miracle it's been working that long.
posted by scolbath at 8:20 AM on January 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
This might be worth a call to a lawyer in case there's a way to get some of the money back. A lot of attorneys will do a free general information call where they'll tell you if something is worth pursuing.
posted by FencingGal at 8:23 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 8:23 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Push them for the contract. If there is some big scary clause in it, it is better to know that now. You pushing them for a copy won't change the existing contract if they can come up with a real one that your mother signed. Them admitting they don't have one will give you the power in the situation.
posted by soelo at 8:39 AM on January 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by soelo at 8:39 AM on January 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sort of an aside, but a 20 year old water heater is at the end of its life and will need to be replaced soon anyway. Keep that in mind if they try to push you to buy out of your contract (eg: "Give us $$ and you can own your water heater outright.") unless the amount is so low that its worth it to make them go away.
posted by Ookseer at 8:46 AM on January 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Ookseer at 8:46 AM on January 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
Ditto on the need to replace the water heater now, regardless. I would not allow any water heater to go past 15 years. There is inevitable corrosion, and they tend to fail catastrophically. Like, rusty hit water spilling out in the middle of the night.
posted by wnissen at 9:30 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by wnissen at 9:30 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Typically on a core utility appliance lease there is not going to be a predatory hidden clause but, if true, that is definitely cause to pull in the authorities. If your mom has been voluntarily paying them there's not, additionally, a way to get the money she has paid unless you are willing to pursue a claim of elder or other type of abuse against the company.
Fully concur with others above that what you need to do is pretty simple: 1) send correspondence from your mother to the company indicating that she has cancelled the service effective x date and request instructions on their removal of the existing water heater within 30 days time by providing you with a copy of the contract that spells out your obligations in regard to disposal/repossession of the equipment by the company; 2) stop paying on the effective date you identify; 3) buy a new water heater.
If they don't reply send a follow up indicating that because they have not replied you will give them 30 additional days to remove the equipment or you will discard it as junk. If they do not reply discard it as junk.
Keep copies of all correspondence sent and received.
posted by desert exile at 9:51 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Fully concur with others above that what you need to do is pretty simple: 1) send correspondence from your mother to the company indicating that she has cancelled the service effective x date and request instructions on their removal of the existing water heater within 30 days time by providing you with a copy of the contract that spells out your obligations in regard to disposal/repossession of the equipment by the company; 2) stop paying on the effective date you identify; 3) buy a new water heater.
If they don't reply send a follow up indicating that because they have not replied you will give them 30 additional days to remove the equipment or you will discard it as junk. If they do not reply discard it as junk.
Keep copies of all correspondence sent and received.
posted by desert exile at 9:51 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Hi, apparently my mother has been renting a water heater from you for 20 years. That stops Friday when a new one will be installed. Do you want to come get it or do you want me to put it on the curb for the next bulky trash day?"
It is absolutely not worth it to them to fight in any way. It's not even worth the time to send someone to get it. Do not pre-assume they're going to give you trouble, force them to make the effort. If they "can't find" something and they don't have a computer system that can look your mom up, the correct conclusion is "That's not my problem, it seems to work fine for billing her so you can get a consultant or something to figure it out for you."
Follow up that phone call with a written or emailed letter stating the dates, who you talked to, and that they can absolutely expect zero additional effort to resolve this on your part.
Wait a couple months to make sure everything is sorted out, then leave a yelp review about it.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:55 AM on January 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
It is absolutely not worth it to them to fight in any way. It's not even worth the time to send someone to get it. Do not pre-assume they're going to give you trouble, force them to make the effort. If they "can't find" something and they don't have a computer system that can look your mom up, the correct conclusion is "That's not my problem, it seems to work fine for billing her so you can get a consultant or something to figure it out for you."
Follow up that phone call with a written or emailed letter stating the dates, who you talked to, and that they can absolutely expect zero additional effort to resolve this on your part.
Wait a couple months to make sure everything is sorted out, then leave a yelp review about it.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:55 AM on January 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
Stop paying the bill. She already has the water heater. They can't prove she owes them money, so no debt exists.
FWIW, it was in Virginia (but in the late 1990s) that my grandmother died supposedly owing the next month's rent on two rotary dial phones. My father was amused/outraged that his mother and father had rented their phones for four or five decades. He told the phone company to produce the original service contract or come and get their property--an avocado-colored wall phone and a pink tabletop one. They did not.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:54 AM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
FWIW, it was in Virginia (but in the late 1990s) that my grandmother died supposedly owing the next month's rent on two rotary dial phones. My father was amused/outraged that his mother and father had rented their phones for four or five decades. He told the phone company to produce the original service contract or come and get their property--an avocado-colored wall phone and a pink tabletop one. They did not.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:54 AM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ask them if they can prove they are not liable for the flood when the elderly heating unit gives up. "I understand you haven't done any service on it in fifteen years?"
Be nice of course, but the threat of hearing from a home insurance company trying to ding them for damage is likely to have them take it a little more seriously.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:16 PM on January 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Be nice of course, but the threat of hearing from a home insurance company trying to ding them for damage is likely to have them take it a little more seriously.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:16 PM on January 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:47 AM on January 11, 2023 [1 favorite]