How can I initiate physical contact during a date?
January 4, 2023 8:54 AM Subscribe
Like this is a thing I don't know how to do very well. I'm often not sure if I should just go for it or not, and I'm kind of afraid of being disrespectful. I like to think I'm very considerate with other people, especially women when it comes to touch.
To add more to this. I've never been a touchy feely sort of person. I'm working on it. On New Year's Eve I hugged my friends. It was hard to do it cause I'm not used to it but I just let go and did it regardless.
However, when it comes to dates what's ok? I mean, if it were up to me I'd ask, but some people say that's awkward and ruins the mood. Then some people say not to do it on the first date. Some others say it doesn't.
I'm inclined to just initiate touch and then back off if it's not welcome. I've done it before, but you know, this gets confusing at tines.
I'd appreciate opinions.
To add more to this. I've never been a touchy feely sort of person. I'm working on it. On New Year's Eve I hugged my friends. It was hard to do it cause I'm not used to it but I just let go and did it regardless.
However, when it comes to dates what's ok? I mean, if it were up to me I'd ask, but some people say that's awkward and ruins the mood. Then some people say not to do it on the first date. Some others say it doesn't.
I'm inclined to just initiate touch and then back off if it's not welcome. I've done it before, but you know, this gets confusing at tines.
I'd appreciate opinions.
Absolutely if you are not extremely confident of, and have evidence to back, your ability to read unspoken signals on a date, just ask.
I went on a date with someone who had in her profile "I will not kiss on a first date, so don't worry about it, it's not an option" and we talked about it. She'd found that saying that outright made it much less stressful for both parties, because no one was thinking/fretting/strategizing about it for the whole date. You may find that something similar could help you if you're finding these dates online - it can both make both parties confident in the boundaries on a first date, and give you a natural conversational opening to talk about desire and comfort levels around touch.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:08 AM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I went on a date with someone who had in her profile "I will not kiss on a first date, so don't worry about it, it's not an option" and we talked about it. She'd found that saying that outright made it much less stressful for both parties, because no one was thinking/fretting/strategizing about it for the whole date. You may find that something similar could help you if you're finding these dates online - it can both make both parties confident in the boundaries on a first date, and give you a natural conversational opening to talk about desire and comfort levels around touch.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:08 AM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
My experience (50s white cis male, not a whole lot of dating, but did meet my wife in a hot tub in a neo-Tantra community in Marin County, California) is that, if you can bring yourself to have conversations about physical touch, nothing heightens the mood more.
"Would you like a hug?", "May I put my arm around you?", "May I put my hand on yours?", boom, instant hot talk.
In fact, if you really want to take it up a notch, on a podcast that I cannot possibly find again I heard someone talk about sitting at a table and go through just talking about "can I put my hand on yours?", and then "okay, now let's do that again and tell me 'no' in various different tones of voice, and see how that feels for you and for me, and then change roles". It's a way to build trust and communication about boundaries and physical touch that can be super hot and intimate, all while not getting past the wrist.
I see you've also had a previous discussion about being male and open and vulnerable, and that you may be in the Ontario Canada area. If you can do so in a way that's consistent with your COVID safety vibes, May I suggest going to one of the HAI mini-workshops? I did a few of their workshops a few years ago, and even though I thought I was a jaded Northern California sensitive New Age guy I got some things out of them, and wish I'd done some of that work back in my 20s. If you find value out of that mini-workshop, one of the things modeled and explored in their first two levels (the ones I've done) are discussions about explicit consent and desire. Obviously everything is different for different people, but it costs ya an evening to try the free session.
posted by straw at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Would you like a hug?", "May I put my arm around you?", "May I put my hand on yours?", boom, instant hot talk.
In fact, if you really want to take it up a notch, on a podcast that I cannot possibly find again I heard someone talk about sitting at a table and go through just talking about "can I put my hand on yours?", and then "okay, now let's do that again and tell me 'no' in various different tones of voice, and see how that feels for you and for me, and then change roles". It's a way to build trust and communication about boundaries and physical touch that can be super hot and intimate, all while not getting past the wrist.
I see you've also had a previous discussion about being male and open and vulnerable, and that you may be in the Ontario Canada area. If you can do so in a way that's consistent with your COVID safety vibes, May I suggest going to one of the HAI mini-workshops? I did a few of their workshops a few years ago, and even though I thought I was a jaded Northern California sensitive New Age guy I got some things out of them, and wish I'd done some of that work back in my 20s. If you find value out of that mini-workshop, one of the things modeled and explored in their first two levels (the ones I've done) are discussions about explicit consent and desire. Obviously everything is different for different people, but it costs ya an evening to try the free session.
posted by straw at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
+1 ask. It's become much more normal to ask if folks want to hug, etc. in my friend circles and dates, it started before the pandemic but that definitely accelerated things.
In my opinion, being anxious about whether it's okay ruins the mood and asking can be hot and vulnerable. Practice some different ways to ask beforehand to figure out what feels like you (Can we hug?, Can I hug you?, I'd like to hold your hand) and try it out.
posted by momus_window at 9:28 AM on January 4, 2023
In my opinion, being anxious about whether it's okay ruins the mood and asking can be hot and vulnerable. Practice some different ways to ask beforehand to figure out what feels like you (Can we hug?, Can I hug you?, I'd like to hold your hand) and try it out.
posted by momus_window at 9:28 AM on January 4, 2023
Best answer: Hi. Hello. I know it's not a popular thing to say, but I am one of those woman who generally finds someone asking to touch or kiss me to be a turn-off. It's not a dealbreaker for me at all, but I do find it to ruin the mood sometimes. But I am most attracted to a partner who is good at reading social cues and body language and acting appropriately, and I am also a person who is very good about communicating and enforcing my boundaries upfront.
But there are women out there who are attracted to partners who might be less astute at reading signals, or who may be more reserved about communicating boundaries, or may have her own reasons and would love a guy to explicitly ask for consent.
Per restless_nomad above, seconding "Absolutely if you are not extremely confident of, and have evidence to back, your ability to read unspoken signals on a date, just ask". And it's okay if that turns off your date, bc that woman may not be the right woman for you. But that woman may also be the kind of person who finds that very attractive. You don't have to be all things to all people, you just have to find the person that meshes the best with you.
posted by greta simone at 9:30 AM on January 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
But there are women out there who are attracted to partners who might be less astute at reading signals, or who may be more reserved about communicating boundaries, or may have her own reasons and would love a guy to explicitly ask for consent.
Per restless_nomad above, seconding "Absolutely if you are not extremely confident of, and have evidence to back, your ability to read unspoken signals on a date, just ask". And it's okay if that turns off your date, bc that woman may not be the right woman for you. But that woman may also be the kind of person who finds that very attractive. You don't have to be all things to all people, you just have to find the person that meshes the best with you.
posted by greta simone at 9:30 AM on January 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm a woman who dates both men and women; and I am happily in a relationship now, but back when I was single,
I would have LOVED if someone had asked
"Can I hug you?"
or "Can I kiss you?"
at the end of a date.
Because I am shy, and making the first move terrifies me.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:41 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would have LOVED if someone had asked
"Can I hug you?"
or "Can I kiss you?"
at the end of a date.
Because I am shy, and making the first move terrifies me.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:41 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The answer is it's really different person to person. For the same actions some will think you're too shy for going slow, some will think you're rude and gross for going fast.
If you are very empathetic and, for lack of a better term, suave, you can use unspoken communication. This might be lingering eye contact, then touching their hand or lower arm, then progressing to upper arm or shoulder, etc. while paying attention to their body language. But it's very difficult to read someone when you're just getting to know someone.
If you are not suave and excellent at unspoken communication, then do what most of us do and plan to ask. You could always say "Can I put my arm around you" but also "Care to get a little closer?" while holding out your arm and letting them either move into you or decline. The less direct question leaves them space for consent while not feeling clinical.
posted by Narrow Harbor at 9:43 AM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you are very empathetic and, for lack of a better term, suave, you can use unspoken communication. This might be lingering eye contact, then touching their hand or lower arm, then progressing to upper arm or shoulder, etc. while paying attention to their body language. But it's very difficult to read someone when you're just getting to know someone.
If you are not suave and excellent at unspoken communication, then do what most of us do and plan to ask. You could always say "Can I put my arm around you" but also "Care to get a little closer?" while holding out your arm and letting them either move into you or decline. The less direct question leaves them space for consent while not feeling clinical.
posted by Narrow Harbor at 9:43 AM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
One thing you can do is wait until you are 100% sure. Many of my early dates did not involve verbal consent for initial touch (because this was long ago, I'm an Old and it was different) and did in fact not involve make outs/sex/etc until a few dates in, and that was because we spent a lot of time talking and then sort of escalating, by mutual consent, to makeout-adjacent activities.
So for instance, first few of dates were dinner, walks, movie, theater - with no making out, no hand-grabs, no kissing, etc, and none expected. Just a lot of talk and getting a sense of what it was to hang out together. Sex, kissing, etc were simply not on the cards on those early dates, because our social milieu was one where it was extremely unusual to hook up before getting to know someone fairly well.
Later dates might be dinner, movie, continuing to hang out, it gets to be 11pm, "would you like to come over and listen to music", then listening to music (we weren't drinkers, so drinking and pressure/inhibition issues weren't in the mix). You listen to music, continue to chat, look into each other's eyes a bit, sit closer together...then hand-holding. If hand-holding seems to be going well and lasts a while, then kissing. At each stage it's possible to draw back or display lack of enthusiasm, whether that's going home rather than listening to music, sitting farther apart on the sofa, withdrawing the hand quickly, etc.
Deferring and lowering expectations around physical contact allows this, because it weeds out many people who want to hook up without respect for emotions or consent and it lets you build enough trust with a person that you feel good about reading them and good about non-verbally saying no if you decide that you don't want to hold hands.
I think that a lot of people run into problems when they want both to avoid asking for consent verbally and to progress to sex quickly. I feel like this is especially a problem for cis straight men, both because many cis straight men are taught to view sex as something that women "withhold" and because they are taught to view it as a referendum on their manliness. So getting to sex really fast as often as possible becomes extremely important.
It seems like you can either ask for consent verbally (accepting that some women may find it offputting) or take the time (even if it's some weeks of dating) to get to know someone well enough that you can non-verbally but consensually get to physical contact.
posted by Frowner at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
So for instance, first few of dates were dinner, walks, movie, theater - with no making out, no hand-grabs, no kissing, etc, and none expected. Just a lot of talk and getting a sense of what it was to hang out together. Sex, kissing, etc were simply not on the cards on those early dates, because our social milieu was one where it was extremely unusual to hook up before getting to know someone fairly well.
Later dates might be dinner, movie, continuing to hang out, it gets to be 11pm, "would you like to come over and listen to music", then listening to music (we weren't drinkers, so drinking and pressure/inhibition issues weren't in the mix). You listen to music, continue to chat, look into each other's eyes a bit, sit closer together...then hand-holding. If hand-holding seems to be going well and lasts a while, then kissing. At each stage it's possible to draw back or display lack of enthusiasm, whether that's going home rather than listening to music, sitting farther apart on the sofa, withdrawing the hand quickly, etc.
Deferring and lowering expectations around physical contact allows this, because it weeds out many people who want to hook up without respect for emotions or consent and it lets you build enough trust with a person that you feel good about reading them and good about non-verbally saying no if you decide that you don't want to hold hands.
I think that a lot of people run into problems when they want both to avoid asking for consent verbally and to progress to sex quickly. I feel like this is especially a problem for cis straight men, both because many cis straight men are taught to view sex as something that women "withhold" and because they are taught to view it as a referendum on their manliness. So getting to sex really fast as often as possible becomes extremely important.
It seems like you can either ask for consent verbally (accepting that some women may find it offputting) or take the time (even if it's some weeks of dating) to get to know someone well enough that you can non-verbally but consensually get to physical contact.
posted by Frowner at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Another form of asking that might work for you: you can also say something like "I would like to hold your hand" or "I would like to kiss you".
It's not really a question, but if there is no response of any kind, then the answer is no. Or you might get a "let's wait a little", "not now" or, who knows, an "I'd like that!"
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:01 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's not really a question, but if there is no response of any kind, then the answer is no. Or you might get a "let's wait a little", "not now" or, who knows, an "I'd like that!"
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:01 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here are a few tips for HOW to ask, since if you're socially anxious like me, asking in a way that doesn't kill the mood is kinda tricky. It's doable though!
The most important thing (in my opinion) is to SMILE while asking. Asking with a smile really is so much more attractive and smooth than asking with a straight face, and it encourages the other person to smile back, which helps build chemistry between the two of you. It doesn't have to be a huge grin — a small, shy smile can be really powerful if that's how you're feeling.
You can also 'test the waters' a bit before asking, by meeting your date's eyes and smiling. If your date meets your gaze and smiles back, that's a good sign. If they look away and/or don't smile back, maybe wait a little before asking about physical contact.
Following your feelings is also really helpful — I've found that the easiest way to ask genuinely is to wait until I feel a swell of warmth and good feelings towards my date, and then ride that wave just by saying something truthful about how I'm feeling — for example, "I'm having a great time tonight. Can I hold your hand?" Being honest about how you're feeling shows vulnerability, which helps build intimacy, especially if you pair it with a smile.
And then since you'll inevitably get a "no" some of the time, accepting a "no" gracefully is also really important. In my experience the best way to handle it is just say something like "Okay, cool" with a smile and move on to another topic. Remember that a rejection isn't really about YOU, it's about THEM and their preferences and what they're ready for in the moment. It also might be a "no, not right now" but perhaps even later in the same date they'll feel ready — and now that you've asked, they know you're OK with physical contact, so they can feel more confident initiating contact themselves if/when they're ready.
Finally, as greta simone mentioned, YES there are definitely women/people who are turned off by being asked. That's OK. Those same people would also be turned off by someone initiating physical contact at the wrong moment, so it's sort of a no-win situation if you're less good at reading social cues. That just means those people aren't the right fit for you right now, and that's fine! There are ALSO lots of people out there (including many of my friends) who really appreciate being asked and see it as a big green flag, so ask with confidence. And the more you ask and observe people's responses, the more you can start learning the nonverbal cues that lead you to expect a "yes" or a "no", which will eventually help you learn when to initiate contact without asking (if that's something you want to do). But you kinda have to go through the asking stage first in order to build up your skills.
Anyway, hope that's helpful. I'm still learning this stuff myself and these are just a few things over the years I've found that make it a little easier.
posted by mekily at 10:30 AM on January 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
The most important thing (in my opinion) is to SMILE while asking. Asking with a smile really is so much more attractive and smooth than asking with a straight face, and it encourages the other person to smile back, which helps build chemistry between the two of you. It doesn't have to be a huge grin — a small, shy smile can be really powerful if that's how you're feeling.
You can also 'test the waters' a bit before asking, by meeting your date's eyes and smiling. If your date meets your gaze and smiles back, that's a good sign. If they look away and/or don't smile back, maybe wait a little before asking about physical contact.
Following your feelings is also really helpful — I've found that the easiest way to ask genuinely is to wait until I feel a swell of warmth and good feelings towards my date, and then ride that wave just by saying something truthful about how I'm feeling — for example, "I'm having a great time tonight. Can I hold your hand?" Being honest about how you're feeling shows vulnerability, which helps build intimacy, especially if you pair it with a smile.
And then since you'll inevitably get a "no" some of the time, accepting a "no" gracefully is also really important. In my experience the best way to handle it is just say something like "Okay, cool" with a smile and move on to another topic. Remember that a rejection isn't really about YOU, it's about THEM and their preferences and what they're ready for in the moment. It also might be a "no, not right now" but perhaps even later in the same date they'll feel ready — and now that you've asked, they know you're OK with physical contact, so they can feel more confident initiating contact themselves if/when they're ready.
Finally, as greta simone mentioned, YES there are definitely women/people who are turned off by being asked. That's OK. Those same people would also be turned off by someone initiating physical contact at the wrong moment, so it's sort of a no-win situation if you're less good at reading social cues. That just means those people aren't the right fit for you right now, and that's fine! There are ALSO lots of people out there (including many of my friends) who really appreciate being asked and see it as a big green flag, so ask with confidence. And the more you ask and observe people's responses, the more you can start learning the nonverbal cues that lead you to expect a "yes" or a "no", which will eventually help you learn when to initiate contact without asking (if that's something you want to do). But you kinda have to go through the asking stage first in order to build up your skills.
Anyway, hope that's helpful. I'm still learning this stuff myself and these are just a few things over the years I've found that make it a little easier.
posted by mekily at 10:30 AM on January 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
Let's examine asking vs not asking.
If you explicitly ask, the worst that can happen is she views it as a turn-off, probably to the same degree as an accidental burp or mismatched clothing. If she likes you, she'll get over it in a few minutes. Also, many women find a bit of fumbling nervousness to be adorable (see every romantic character played by Hugh Grant).
If you don't explicitly ask, and you make a physical move that was unwelcome (such as kissing her), the worst-case scenario is she views it as an assault. I can still remember incidents from 10+ years ago, when guys made an unwelcome move without asking. Those guys thought they were so smooth, but actually came off as rapey and un-self-aware.
Therefore, the potential downside is much worse if you don't explicitly ask.
In terms of logistics around asking, I like the advice above about smiling while you ask. I also recommend setting up an automatic alternative, such as saying, "Before we walk into this bar, can I kiss you?" Then if she says no, you have a natural reply, "No worries, into the bar we go! I wonder if they have craft beers here."
You can substitute any action: "Before we say goodbye for the night" or "Before I drive off", etc. Then if she says no, you don't have to fumble for a new topic or endure silence. You just do whatever you said (say goodbye, drive off, etc).
posted by cheesecake at 11:41 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you explicitly ask, the worst that can happen is she views it as a turn-off, probably to the same degree as an accidental burp or mismatched clothing. If she likes you, she'll get over it in a few minutes. Also, many women find a bit of fumbling nervousness to be adorable (see every romantic character played by Hugh Grant).
If you don't explicitly ask, and you make a physical move that was unwelcome (such as kissing her), the worst-case scenario is she views it as an assault. I can still remember incidents from 10+ years ago, when guys made an unwelcome move without asking. Those guys thought they were so smooth, but actually came off as rapey and un-self-aware.
Therefore, the potential downside is much worse if you don't explicitly ask.
In terms of logistics around asking, I like the advice above about smiling while you ask. I also recommend setting up an automatic alternative, such as saying, "Before we walk into this bar, can I kiss you?" Then if she says no, you have a natural reply, "No worries, into the bar we go! I wonder if they have craft beers here."
You can substitute any action: "Before we say goodbye for the night" or "Before I drive off", etc. Then if she says no, you don't have to fumble for a new topic or endure silence. You just do whatever you said (say goodbye, drive off, etc).
posted by cheesecake at 11:41 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Establish what they like before you get to the date so it's not even a thing you need to worry about during the date because you've already established things: "Hey! I'm excited about our date on Tuesday. Would you prefer I ask for consent for any physical contact along the way? Are there actions that you don't want to be asked about in the moment?"
posted by haplesschild at 11:44 AM on January 4, 2023
posted by haplesschild at 11:44 AM on January 4, 2023
Sometimes opening up opportunities for the other person to initiate touch can help. For example:
Put your hand right next to theirs on the table
Show them something on your phone
Let your knee graze theirs
A lot of my first dates are hikes, and I'll sorta awkwardly bump into them
Briefly touching their hand when passing them a drink or whatever
Avoid barriers; sit near them
Serve food in a shared dish, like a bowlful of berries
posted by metasarah at 12:01 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Put your hand right next to theirs on the table
Show them something on your phone
Let your knee graze theirs
A lot of my first dates are hikes, and I'll sorta awkwardly bump into them
Briefly touching their hand when passing them a drink or whatever
Avoid barriers; sit near them
Serve food in a shared dish, like a bowlful of berries
posted by metasarah at 12:01 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: "Hey! I'm excited about our date on Tuesday. Would you prefer I ask for consent for any physical contact along the way? Are there actions that you don't want to be asked about in the moment?"
I sometimes have sex on first dates and would find this super presumptuous before I've met someone.
posted by metasarah at 12:03 PM on January 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
I sometimes have sex on first dates and would find this super presumptuous before I've met someone.
posted by metasarah at 12:03 PM on January 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
Hi. Hello. I know it's not a popular thing to say, but I am one of those woman who generally finds someone asking to touch or kiss me to be a turn-off. It's not a dealbreaker for me at all, but I do find it to ruin the mood sometimes. But I am most attracted to a partner who is good at reading social cues and body language and acting appropriately, and I am also a person who is very good about communicating and enforcing my boundaries upfront.
Ditto.
My experience (50s white cis male, not a whole lot of dating, but did meet my wife in a hot tub in a neo-Tantra community in Marin County, California) is that, if you can bring yourself to have conversations about physical touch, nothing heightens the mood more.
Agree!
How to reconcile? One thing you can do is say what you want out loud and not turn it immediately into a question your date must answer on the spot nor an action you take without your date's consent.
"I'd like to hold your hand right now."
"I really want to kiss you."
"I feel like hugging you."
"I'd love to sit closer to you."
"I'd love to walk in to this place arm in arm."
Instead of a Q&A session, an opportunity exists for your date to respond with what they want.
I really don't know why "consent" (obviously requisite) has to equal "men ask questions and women reply to questions."
posted by desert exile at 12:37 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ditto.
My experience (50s white cis male, not a whole lot of dating, but did meet my wife in a hot tub in a neo-Tantra community in Marin County, California) is that, if you can bring yourself to have conversations about physical touch, nothing heightens the mood more.
Agree!
How to reconcile? One thing you can do is say what you want out loud and not turn it immediately into a question your date must answer on the spot nor an action you take without your date's consent.
"I'd like to hold your hand right now."
"I really want to kiss you."
"I feel like hugging you."
"I'd love to sit closer to you."
"I'd love to walk in to this place arm in arm."
Instead of a Q&A session, an opportunity exists for your date to respond with what they want.
I really don't know why "consent" (obviously requisite) has to equal "men ask questions and women reply to questions."
posted by desert exile at 12:37 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also want to jump back in to say that someone mistakenly assuming you want physical contact and going for it when it isn't wanted is 1000 times worse than someone explicitly asking for it or stating their desires.
Going for it when unwanted = dealbreaker
Asking for it/stating what you want = potentially unappealing but not a dealbreaker, especially if I'm into them otherwise
So, if you aren't sure, explicit consent is never the wrong choice. Any potential for a relationship (however casual or not) shouldn't hang on this one exchange. If a person is 100% turned off by it, that relationship probably wasn't meant to be to begin with. But all starts to a relationship have the potential to be awkward, so just lean into it and have the confidence to laugh at yourself along the way.
posted by greta simone at 12:58 PM on January 4, 2023
Going for it when unwanted = dealbreaker
Asking for it/stating what you want = potentially unappealing but not a dealbreaker, especially if I'm into them otherwise
So, if you aren't sure, explicit consent is never the wrong choice. Any potential for a relationship (however casual or not) shouldn't hang on this one exchange. If a person is 100% turned off by it, that relationship probably wasn't meant to be to begin with. But all starts to a relationship have the potential to be awkward, so just lean into it and have the confidence to laugh at yourself along the way.
posted by greta simone at 12:58 PM on January 4, 2023
Low-stakes physical gestures first.
- Hold a door open, pull a chair out.
- Sincere "May I?" as you offer to help her with her coat at the venue (if she refuses, it's fine).
- Playful "Safety first?" as you extend your hand before crossing the street together (if she refuses, also fine).
Small talk helps establish that you follow certain social conventions, and are safe to be around. Small gestures, same. It's good that you pushed yourself out of your comfort zone and hugged your friends on New Year's. If that experience went well, easing into more (non-romantic, non-sexual) affection with them may help you in this area, too.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:21 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
- Hold a door open, pull a chair out.
- Sincere "May I?" as you offer to help her with her coat at the venue (if she refuses, it's fine).
- Playful "Safety first?" as you extend your hand before crossing the street together (if she refuses, also fine).
Small talk helps establish that you follow certain social conventions, and are safe to be around. Small gestures, same. It's good that you pushed yourself out of your comfort zone and hugged your friends on New Year's. If that experience went well, easing into more (non-romantic, non-sexual) affection with them may help you in this area, too.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:21 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Hey! I'm excited about our date on Tuesday. Would you prefer I ask for consent for any physical contact along the way? Are there actions that you don't want to be asked about in the moment?"
That would strike me as control-freaky and, from a cishet guy, faux-nice-guy/dumbwoke. However, “Exited about Tuesday, I’m picking you up at four right? Jus so you know, I don’t kiss on the first date, cya then!!” would make me grin and pique my curiosity. But I’m a lesbo, so I know nothing.
posted by Iteki at 4:13 PM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
That would strike me as control-freaky and, from a cishet guy, faux-nice-guy/dumbwoke. However, “Exited about Tuesday, I’m picking you up at four right? Jus so you know, I don’t kiss on the first date, cya then!!” would make me grin and pique my curiosity. But I’m a lesbo, so I know nothing.
posted by Iteki at 4:13 PM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Like some of the answers here are getting at, this is a little more complicated than just "ask for consent vs. don't ask, just touch."
One factor that you need to be aware of is proper timing. Proper timing can range from person to person, but to give a kinda extreme example, if you greeted a date you had never met before (besides messaging on apps) with a "Hey, can I have your consent to kiss you right now?" you would be asking for consent, but that would turn off most people, even people who may eventually want to kiss you. Too soon! I am a woman who has slept with men on the first date, but I would find off-putting any sort of attempt at physical contact (verbal or otherwise) if it wasn't in response to, you know, actual flirting/feelings happening.
So I'd say, first step is to ask yourself - are you feeling a real sense of attraction to this person? Not just, "Oh, she's kinda cute" but more "Wow, the thought of kissing her is making me really excited." Okay, then the next step is to determine is she's feeling it too. If you're bad at always reading signs, then start with a low-stakes line like "I'm really enjoying spending time with you." If she seems to reciprocate, then I think some of desert exile's lines are a good next step.
posted by coffeecat at 5:31 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
One factor that you need to be aware of is proper timing. Proper timing can range from person to person, but to give a kinda extreme example, if you greeted a date you had never met before (besides messaging on apps) with a "Hey, can I have your consent to kiss you right now?" you would be asking for consent, but that would turn off most people, even people who may eventually want to kiss you. Too soon! I am a woman who has slept with men on the first date, but I would find off-putting any sort of attempt at physical contact (verbal or otherwise) if it wasn't in response to, you know, actual flirting/feelings happening.
So I'd say, first step is to ask yourself - are you feeling a real sense of attraction to this person? Not just, "Oh, she's kinda cute" but more "Wow, the thought of kissing her is making me really excited." Okay, then the next step is to determine is she's feeling it too. If you're bad at always reading signs, then start with a low-stakes line like "I'm really enjoying spending time with you." If she seems to reciprocate, then I think some of desert exile's lines are a good next step.
posted by coffeecat at 5:31 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you want to test your signals reading, maybe you could do a bit of both. To see whether someone might be interested, try moving a bit closer to them, and see if they reciprocate. Try using any of the above signals reading strategies. If you think they are interested, try the asking. If you turn out to be wrong, you've learned whether your signal reading was good.
posted by lookoutbelow at 4:10 PM on January 5, 2023
posted by lookoutbelow at 4:10 PM on January 5, 2023
My take? Don't ask for permission. I can see that as a turn-off because it makes the other person responsible for deciding whether something happens or not. I think it's important to assume the risk of embarrassment yourself.
Can I suggest this? "I find you really attractive. I want to kiss you very much." Then let them respond. You've lowered the threshold of possible embarrassment for them if that's what they want. You've made yourself vulnerable (but in a potentially attractive way). It empowers them. They can say "Oh my god, I really want that too." Or if they're not into it, they can say something like "That's not really how I feel." or "I like you but I'm not ready yet" or anything else that gives them the space they need.
You're not just looking for consent. You're looking for enthusiastic consent.
posted by kaymac at 9:20 AM on January 6, 2023
Can I suggest this? "I find you really attractive. I want to kiss you very much." Then let them respond. You've lowered the threshold of possible embarrassment for them if that's what they want. You've made yourself vulnerable (but in a potentially attractive way). It empowers them. They can say "Oh my god, I really want that too." Or if they're not into it, they can say something like "That's not really how I feel." or "I like you but I'm not ready yet" or anything else that gives them the space they need.
You're not just looking for consent. You're looking for enthusiastic consent.
posted by kaymac at 9:20 AM on January 6, 2023
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posted by entropone at 9:00 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]