what to do when I don't inspire romantic attraction?
September 8, 2022 12:40 PM Subscribe
Looking for perspectives and experiences to help me (F, early 40s, cisgender) deal with hurtful romantic rejection, which keeps happening, and which I seem unable to brush off.
Hoping this with similar experiences can share their stories, how they dealt with it, perhaps some happy endings.
More behind the link
I do okay getting dates (on dating apps, anyway). I'm not ugly (I don't think); I don't have a bad personality (I'm more sure about this). However, no one I've been interested in has wanted to be in a relationship with me, and this has been true my whole life. I've never had a committed, long-term, relationship.
To be sure, part of the issue is that I am always attracted to men who are unavailable in some way. I've gone on to pursue men who have expressed mild interest at best.
The men I meet and "date" (usually from apps) seem to either want to have sex with me, or just to befriend me. I'm often told that I am nice, smart, interesting.
Most recently, I guy I have befriended who I met on an app told me that he didn't experience much chemistry when we first me and so didn't pursue things further (I asked). We did sleep in the same bed and share some non-platonic activity (not kissing, and no sex at my request). However I thought we had a lot of chemistry and he told me it felt good to touch me but nope, not much physical/sexual chemistry.
We have recently been talking on the phone a lot (different cities) and he's been calling me daily. We have very interesting discussions. But this whole time, I thought he found me attractive as I found him, and I was really gutted to learn that he did not. I feel ugly. Because I feel like the only way he would not be feeling chemistry, when we have so much intellectual closeness, is if he finds me physically unappealing.
I can't get this most recent interaction or these feelings out of my head and they have taken me to a really dark place. I know, therapy- but I am hoping folks have some experiences or advice that resonates. Thanks
I do okay getting dates (on dating apps, anyway). I'm not ugly (I don't think); I don't have a bad personality (I'm more sure about this). However, no one I've been interested in has wanted to be in a relationship with me, and this has been true my whole life. I've never had a committed, long-term, relationship.
To be sure, part of the issue is that I am always attracted to men who are unavailable in some way. I've gone on to pursue men who have expressed mild interest at best.
The men I meet and "date" (usually from apps) seem to either want to have sex with me, or just to befriend me. I'm often told that I am nice, smart, interesting.
Most recently, I guy I have befriended who I met on an app told me that he didn't experience much chemistry when we first me and so didn't pursue things further (I asked). We did sleep in the same bed and share some non-platonic activity (not kissing, and no sex at my request). However I thought we had a lot of chemistry and he told me it felt good to touch me but nope, not much physical/sexual chemistry.
We have recently been talking on the phone a lot (different cities) and he's been calling me daily. We have very interesting discussions. But this whole time, I thought he found me attractive as I found him, and I was really gutted to learn that he did not. I feel ugly. Because I feel like the only way he would not be feeling chemistry, when we have so much intellectual closeness, is if he finds me physically unappealing.
I can't get this most recent interaction or these feelings out of my head and they have taken me to a really dark place. I know, therapy- but I am hoping folks have some experiences or advice that resonates. Thanks
You're meeting "unavailable" men via apps that by your own admission have only mild interest at best. That's it right there. That's the problem. You have psychological issues that you need to address, if you only go after men like that in that way, that are going to keep you in the same place.
Meet and pursue men that are interested, and do it in real life.
It also sounds like you may be attempting to date outside of your league (i.e. men who will have sex or mess around with you, but who you do not meet the standards of with respect to a relationship). It may sound harsh, but many men will be willing to have sex with those they would never have a relationship with. Your "unavailable" comment and lack of response from recent partners suggests to me this may be the case. You are also on "apps" which are not always conducive to forming long-lasting relationships.
Get involved in a real-life activity or two and go out with someone who seems actually interested and available. Without a base of someone at least being interested and available, you're setting yourself up for failure as even most relationships with two available, interested parties are difficult to make work.
posted by hypercomplexsimplicity at 1:11 PM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
Meet and pursue men that are interested, and do it in real life.
It also sounds like you may be attempting to date outside of your league (i.e. men who will have sex or mess around with you, but who you do not meet the standards of with respect to a relationship). It may sound harsh, but many men will be willing to have sex with those they would never have a relationship with. Your "unavailable" comment and lack of response from recent partners suggests to me this may be the case. You are also on "apps" which are not always conducive to forming long-lasting relationships.
Get involved in a real-life activity or two and go out with someone who seems actually interested and available. Without a base of someone at least being interested and available, you're setting yourself up for failure as even most relationships with two available, interested parties are difficult to make work.
posted by hypercomplexsimplicity at 1:11 PM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
I have two remarks, and they will probably sound they contradict each other.
a) Chemistry is overrated (until it isn't) -- romance novels and stories from couples are either fictional or fictionalized, or "romanticized" to emphasize chemistry: when you know, you know sort of thing. As a result, people who want a partner will often seek a feeling that neither can describe, much like the infamous "SCOTUS definition for porn", i.e. "I'll know it when I see it". The truthy is most people with a relationship to get married are really folks who have been together for YEARS. Brides.com claim a survey of their brides shows a relationship between 2 to 5 years before marriage. I know you're talking about even GETTING into a relationship, but my point is "chemistry" or "attraction" is often just lust, not love.
b) Chemistry means different things to different people, until you feel it. Different people fall in love different ways, and most of us don't meet enough people, at least on the level we need, to choose a mate, nowadays. Social media is not a substitute for group gatherings. And dating apps are just screening mechanisms for dating, and really help the top 20% more than the average users. "I don't think we have much chemistry together" is just a nicer way of saying "I'm not that into you" for most people. On the other hand, when you really meet a guy you like, you'll end up sync'ing with him, almost mirroring his movements subconsciously, while automatically injecting flirtatious gestures such as chuckling, flipping hair, lean forward and toward him, and so on. When that happens, you will really know it (which goes back to (a) about "Chemistry is overrated... until it isn't") And the only way to find that person... is to meet a LOT of people.
As you said you seem to be attracted to unavailable men, you need to change your social circle a bit. Realign it with a different segment of population, which will expand your reach.
posted by kschang at 1:18 PM on September 8, 2022
a) Chemistry is overrated (until it isn't) -- romance novels and stories from couples are either fictional or fictionalized, or "romanticized" to emphasize chemistry: when you know, you know sort of thing. As a result, people who want a partner will often seek a feeling that neither can describe, much like the infamous "SCOTUS definition for porn", i.e. "I'll know it when I see it". The truthy is most people with a relationship to get married are really folks who have been together for YEARS. Brides.com claim a survey of their brides shows a relationship between 2 to 5 years before marriage. I know you're talking about even GETTING into a relationship, but my point is "chemistry" or "attraction" is often just lust, not love.
b) Chemistry means different things to different people, until you feel it. Different people fall in love different ways, and most of us don't meet enough people, at least on the level we need, to choose a mate, nowadays. Social media is not a substitute for group gatherings. And dating apps are just screening mechanisms for dating, and really help the top 20% more than the average users. "I don't think we have much chemistry together" is just a nicer way of saying "I'm not that into you" for most people. On the other hand, when you really meet a guy you like, you'll end up sync'ing with him, almost mirroring his movements subconsciously, while automatically injecting flirtatious gestures such as chuckling, flipping hair, lean forward and toward him, and so on. When that happens, you will really know it (which goes back to (a) about "Chemistry is overrated... until it isn't") And the only way to find that person... is to meet a LOT of people.
As you said you seem to be attracted to unavailable men, you need to change your social circle a bit. Realign it with a different segment of population, which will expand your reach.
posted by kschang at 1:18 PM on September 8, 2022
I'm not ugly (I don't think); I don't have a bad personality (I'm more sure about this).
I mean, to be totally candid, as an M/40 on the other side of the cue ball: neither of these observations are helpful.
I love my fiance, I am super duper attracted to her and we have a wonderful relationship. But I would never describe her personality as GOOD. Nor would I describe her as, like, a supermodel.
She is happy to talk about the things she likes (which are pretty different from the things I like), she makes her personal space something that brings life to her day-to-day, she presents herself in a way that makes her happy, and she works in a field she's good at and finds fulfilling.
I was hung up for years on "the one that got away" sort of pattern, and she was hung up for months into our relationship about how badly a few of her exes treated her (like, is she worthless?). At the end of the day, neither of these feelings help: "the one that got away" could never have worked because she CHOSE to get away from me; Those exes didn't didn't value her because they CHOSE not to value her, not because she's worthless.
Does that happen because the other person just isn't that into us? Maybe. Does it happen because they haven't figured out what's actually important? Maybe! Doesn't matter.
If I had kept focusing on that, I never would have asked her for her number that day in the park. And if I had never asked her for that number that day in the park, I never would have found out that I was WAY more attracted to her than I thought I would be.
This advice from hypercomplexsimplicity really speaks the truth:
Meet and pursue men that are interested, and do it in real life.
If someone is interested in you, give them a chance! Life is too short to spend effort winning people over to your thing. And the right guy won't be able to hide his interest in you!
Anyway, it sounds like you are a wonderful person who has made some wonderful connections. Those connections are great! Maybe not what you're looking for, but that's okay. They don't have to be.
posted by billjings at 1:47 PM on September 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
I mean, to be totally candid, as an M/40 on the other side of the cue ball: neither of these observations are helpful.
I love my fiance, I am super duper attracted to her and we have a wonderful relationship. But I would never describe her personality as GOOD. Nor would I describe her as, like, a supermodel.
She is happy to talk about the things she likes (which are pretty different from the things I like), she makes her personal space something that brings life to her day-to-day, she presents herself in a way that makes her happy, and she works in a field she's good at and finds fulfilling.
I was hung up for years on "the one that got away" sort of pattern, and she was hung up for months into our relationship about how badly a few of her exes treated her (like, is she worthless?). At the end of the day, neither of these feelings help: "the one that got away" could never have worked because she CHOSE to get away from me; Those exes didn't didn't value her because they CHOSE not to value her, not because she's worthless.
Does that happen because the other person just isn't that into us? Maybe. Does it happen because they haven't figured out what's actually important? Maybe! Doesn't matter.
If I had kept focusing on that, I never would have asked her for her number that day in the park. And if I had never asked her for that number that day in the park, I never would have found out that I was WAY more attracted to her than I thought I would be.
This advice from hypercomplexsimplicity really speaks the truth:
Meet and pursue men that are interested, and do it in real life.
If someone is interested in you, give them a chance! Life is too short to spend effort winning people over to your thing. And the right guy won't be able to hide his interest in you!
Anyway, it sounds like you are a wonderful person who has made some wonderful connections. Those connections are great! Maybe not what you're looking for, but that's okay. They don't have to be.
posted by billjings at 1:47 PM on September 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
Because I feel like the only way he would not be feeling chemistry, when we have so much intellectual closeness, is if he finds me physically unappealing.
Oh, heck no. Presuming we even agree there's such a thing as "objectively attractive" (determined by who? in what culture? etc), chemistry is far far far from a reflection of attractiveness. Nth-ing the commenters above as someone who has had objectively very attractive, interesting people that I love to hang out with and who do absolutely nothing for me, on a gut level. None of this stuff is reasonable or logical. It's all animal stuff.
The sense that nobody you like likes you back is extremely common and ultimately I think most people eventually twig to exactly what you already know: something about you is deliberately grabbing hold of folks because they won't pick you back.
I wish I had universal answers about why anyone gets set up this way, or specifically how to solve it, but I think instead it is exactly the sort of thing you can only live through, therapy about, and try to learn and observe as you go. And then you gotta get lucky, and meet someone--that part isn't up to anyone.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:37 PM on September 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh, heck no. Presuming we even agree there's such a thing as "objectively attractive" (determined by who? in what culture? etc), chemistry is far far far from a reflection of attractiveness. Nth-ing the commenters above as someone who has had objectively very attractive, interesting people that I love to hang out with and who do absolutely nothing for me, on a gut level. None of this stuff is reasonable or logical. It's all animal stuff.
The sense that nobody you like likes you back is extremely common and ultimately I think most people eventually twig to exactly what you already know: something about you is deliberately grabbing hold of folks because they won't pick you back.
I wish I had universal answers about why anyone gets set up this way, or specifically how to solve it, but I think instead it is exactly the sort of thing you can only live through, therapy about, and try to learn and observe as you go. And then you gotta get lucky, and meet someone--that part isn't up to anyone.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:37 PM on September 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
The only way I was able to get out of my dysfunctional romantic patterns was to read "Intimate Connections" by David Burns. It really, really helped me change my thinking patterns about romance and helped me attract (and pay attention to!) better partners, one of whom is now my spouse. I had seen it recommended on Metafilter, and now I pass that on to you.
posted by randomquestion at 3:02 PM on September 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by randomquestion at 3:02 PM on September 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
I wonder, do you maybe censor your true self too much? This is the kind of thing that often happens to people who are trying to appeal to an 'ideal' standard of what a partner is supposed to be like, which suppresses their authenticity deep down. And authenticity is what people connect to, that's what creates 'chemistry'. I really hope that you don't internalize the idea that something about you needs to change, or that you need to lower your standards. That's the saddest, most toxic advice I've ever heard. I'm guessing that the only thing that needs changing here is that you need to be more yourself for others. That means not trying to be the ideal standard, but the messy, real person who's hiding behind a 'good' personality. Eh, why be good? So boring. Be moody, be loud. Be angry, sad, overexcited, nerd out, make a fool of yourself. Free yourself. Not at work, but, you know, with people you socialize with.
I was confused for so many years why a relationship wasn't happening for me. After all, I looked fine and my personality was "good" enough, at least I hoped. I was trying so hard to look as beautiful as possible and be as interesting as possible, as if beauty and success were essential ingredients for human connection. I kept getting into pseudo-relationships with men who were honestly not very attractive or compelling, and yet I thought that I loved them(?!) I think good therapists are rare, but I finally found one who essentially shook me by the shoulders and told me to come out. To get angry. To say exactly what was on my mind. Fuck having a good personality. Just like any other person, I'm abrasive, obnoxious, temperamental, and those 'negative' qualities are exactly right up there supporting my good ones: I'm honest, I'm passionate, I'm kind. You cannot have the good without the bad, and if you suppress the bad you become a non-person that people cannot feel a connection with.
This might earn you enemies, especially as a woman! Society wants you to be "good", sweet, quiet, and complacent. When I started saying exactly what was on my mind, most men really started HATING me. Oh how they protested, lol. But then the real ones came out of the woodwork and I met some amazing people who I wasn't into, but remain friends with, because the connection was real. After years of therapy and practicing my true self, I met the most attractive and successful man I've ever dated (not that that's at all important, but certainly an important detail compared to who I USED to date) who tells me that he's never had a connection like this before. And neither have I––this relationship feels so expansive and alive. If any of this resonates, please, figure out who YOU are and let her out. Try to find a good therapist if you can.
People need social relationships more than anything, at any age. It's okay to want and long for romance-–desire is the most beautiful thing, in my opinion. But another cool thing that happened once I allowed my true self to come out was that I felt that yearning for romance less. I was then able to self-actualize in other ways because I had the emotional energy for hobbies.
I hope this resonates. Don't let anyone treat you poorly. Stand up for yourself. If it feels wrong, say so. The real ones will accept you and admire you for it.
posted by saturday sun at 3:13 PM on September 8, 2022 [50 favorites]
I was confused for so many years why a relationship wasn't happening for me. After all, I looked fine and my personality was "good" enough, at least I hoped. I was trying so hard to look as beautiful as possible and be as interesting as possible, as if beauty and success were essential ingredients for human connection. I kept getting into pseudo-relationships with men who were honestly not very attractive or compelling, and yet I thought that I loved them(?!) I think good therapists are rare, but I finally found one who essentially shook me by the shoulders and told me to come out. To get angry. To say exactly what was on my mind. Fuck having a good personality. Just like any other person, I'm abrasive, obnoxious, temperamental, and those 'negative' qualities are exactly right up there supporting my good ones: I'm honest, I'm passionate, I'm kind. You cannot have the good without the bad, and if you suppress the bad you become a non-person that people cannot feel a connection with.
This might earn you enemies, especially as a woman! Society wants you to be "good", sweet, quiet, and complacent. When I started saying exactly what was on my mind, most men really started HATING me. Oh how they protested, lol. But then the real ones came out of the woodwork and I met some amazing people who I wasn't into, but remain friends with, because the connection was real. After years of therapy and practicing my true self, I met the most attractive and successful man I've ever dated (not that that's at all important, but certainly an important detail compared to who I USED to date) who tells me that he's never had a connection like this before. And neither have I––this relationship feels so expansive and alive. If any of this resonates, please, figure out who YOU are and let her out. Try to find a good therapist if you can.
People need social relationships more than anything, at any age. It's okay to want and long for romance-–desire is the most beautiful thing, in my opinion. But another cool thing that happened once I allowed my true self to come out was that I felt that yearning for romance less. I was then able to self-actualize in other ways because I had the emotional energy for hobbies.
I hope this resonates. Don't let anyone treat you poorly. Stand up for yourself. If it feels wrong, say so. The real ones will accept you and admire you for it.
posted by saturday sun at 3:13 PM on September 8, 2022 [50 favorites]
Okay this may be off base but I'm detecting a note of passivity in the way you talk about this. Like rejection is something that happens to you, and chemistry or lack thereof is the inevitable outcome of some mystical combination of traits you're stuck with, like a 1000 piece puzzle of what you do and don't have, and you think you're missing some parts.
And I just want to push back on that! Chemistry is mystical, yes, there's a special something when it all lines up we can never quite identify.. but it's also an active process that you DO shape and you DO have choice in, and you can definitely improve your chances of finding it. I suspect you have everything you need, but you're hiding your real self out of fear.
I wonder if this expectation that you will be rejected, and the aura of despair that comes after, is contributing to the push-pull dynamic you detail, where you sort of emotionally lunge for people that are halfway out the door? Because when you hold back, and wait, and put all the chips in the other guy's pot.. of course you're thrown into frenetic activity when you see your chance is nearly blown. Only terror pushes you to ACT!
(I'm not necessarily talking about erratic behavior, by the way. You sound like a measured, kind person who is doing their best and behaving with great comportment! This is more a subtle internal emotional arc, a piece of shitty software running underneath your outer placid expression.)
There are lots of things we can't control, our bodies and our pasts, and for sure there are demographic pressures at play here. Even just bad luck in matching that may account for your rotten experiences. We only connect deeply with about 1 in 40 people in our desired range so it is a numbers game! But you know what you can control? Who you're looking for. Where you're looking. Your attunement to red flags. Who you say no to. How you present yourself. What's in your emotional toolkit.
Let me pose some questions: Do you know how to flirt, woo, pursue— in a way that feels good and right? Can you ask for what you want? What traits are you looking for in a date, beyond "someone who wants to date me back?" What does desire feel like in your body? Can you express these desires to other people? Do you feel like you're really yourself, when you're with these men?
Don't wait for luck. Make it! Get in touch with yourself and I bet the rest will fall in line.
posted by lloquat at 3:32 PM on September 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
And I just want to push back on that! Chemistry is mystical, yes, there's a special something when it all lines up we can never quite identify.. but it's also an active process that you DO shape and you DO have choice in, and you can definitely improve your chances of finding it. I suspect you have everything you need, but you're hiding your real self out of fear.
I wonder if this expectation that you will be rejected, and the aura of despair that comes after, is contributing to the push-pull dynamic you detail, where you sort of emotionally lunge for people that are halfway out the door? Because when you hold back, and wait, and put all the chips in the other guy's pot.. of course you're thrown into frenetic activity when you see your chance is nearly blown. Only terror pushes you to ACT!
(I'm not necessarily talking about erratic behavior, by the way. You sound like a measured, kind person who is doing their best and behaving with great comportment! This is more a subtle internal emotional arc, a piece of shitty software running underneath your outer placid expression.)
There are lots of things we can't control, our bodies and our pasts, and for sure there are demographic pressures at play here. Even just bad luck in matching that may account for your rotten experiences. We only connect deeply with about 1 in 40 people in our desired range so it is a numbers game! But you know what you can control? Who you're looking for. Where you're looking. Your attunement to red flags. Who you say no to. How you present yourself. What's in your emotional toolkit.
Let me pose some questions: Do you know how to flirt, woo, pursue— in a way that feels good and right? Can you ask for what you want? What traits are you looking for in a date, beyond "someone who wants to date me back?" What does desire feel like in your body? Can you express these desires to other people? Do you feel like you're really yourself, when you're with these men?
Don't wait for luck. Make it! Get in touch with yourself and I bet the rest will fall in line.
posted by lloquat at 3:32 PM on September 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think to date in our general society, you need to wear at least some light armor of skepticism about the motives of potential matches, as well as their capacity to participate in the kind of relationship you actually want to be in. Some of the people you're matching with are going to be looking for something other than an equitable romantic relationship, others are not going to have the skillset to do anything more than get through a few dates and are just going to do that over and over. You being a specific sort of attractiveness is not going to fix them. And it seems like you also maybe don't come off as very easily manipulated by the really bad ones who are looking for someone to abuse, so you may be getting the brush-off as you're dodging a bullet.
You aren't going to "inspire" romantic attraction in every person you meet, and that's good because you probably also have to work and buy things at the store and otherwise engage with other people in the world on a non-romantic level most of the time. There ARE people you will click with, though, and that's because they're already ready to be attracted in whatever ways really matter to them.
I think it helps to some degree to make it clear both in your profile and in your behavior after matching that you are looking to grow a strong long-term relationship with someone. Not hook up, not to have a social life, not to not be alone, and not to be some dude's phone buddy. You may still have to be on light alert for the users and takers, and be prepared to walk as soon as you see their goals aren't compatible with yours.
This is all significantly harder in your 40s+, too, because the dating pool gets weighted more heavily toward people who don't have great relationship skills and no longer have the rushing hormones of youth to cover for it.
Be really mindful of your time and energy as a coveted resource, and don't give out armloads of it freely before people have shown AND are willing to talk about the pace you're moving at and the goals you're working toward.
If you aren't really clear already about what YOU want in your life and in your eventual relationship, take some time off to do that. Be ready so you know when the right type of person actually shows up. You don't have total control over this process, but you do get to set your own standards and work toward the life you want including figuring out how to communicate the things that are important to you so you catch the attention of like-minded people.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:36 PM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
You aren't going to "inspire" romantic attraction in every person you meet, and that's good because you probably also have to work and buy things at the store and otherwise engage with other people in the world on a non-romantic level most of the time. There ARE people you will click with, though, and that's because they're already ready to be attracted in whatever ways really matter to them.
I think it helps to some degree to make it clear both in your profile and in your behavior after matching that you are looking to grow a strong long-term relationship with someone. Not hook up, not to have a social life, not to not be alone, and not to be some dude's phone buddy. You may still have to be on light alert for the users and takers, and be prepared to walk as soon as you see their goals aren't compatible with yours.
This is all significantly harder in your 40s+, too, because the dating pool gets weighted more heavily toward people who don't have great relationship skills and no longer have the rushing hormones of youth to cover for it.
Be really mindful of your time and energy as a coveted resource, and don't give out armloads of it freely before people have shown AND are willing to talk about the pace you're moving at and the goals you're working toward.
If you aren't really clear already about what YOU want in your life and in your eventual relationship, take some time off to do that. Be ready so you know when the right type of person actually shows up. You don't have total control over this process, but you do get to set your own standards and work toward the life you want including figuring out how to communicate the things that are important to you so you catch the attention of like-minded people.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:36 PM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
"To be sure, part of the issue is that I am always attracted to men who are unavailable in some way. I've gone on to pursue men who have expressed mild interest at best." This is a huge part, if not the entirety, of the issue here. I am not kidding when I tell you that I solved this problem in my own life by going to therapy. (Because I did this too, for years!!) You haven't had a relationship because you are trying to have one with men who don't want one. The question is why you're doing this to yourself. A therapist can help you figure it out! You know this, you even said it yourself! I'm sure you're rad -- don't waste any more of your own time!
posted by Countess Sandwich at 4:00 PM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Countess Sandwich at 4:00 PM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
I really don't know what it is but I can say this: dating in 2022 is incredibly hard for all people of all genders and of all ages and all backgrounds. The apps make us believe we have lots of possibilities but everyone has their shit. I am sure you are lovely and fine as is. I know it's so common at Metafilter that it's become trite but therapy has really helped! It hasn't been a panacea in dating -- in fact, it's made it harder because I have higher self-esteem, am more emotionally mature and therefore have less patience for bullshit -- but it's made my life better overall.
Also, I want to add: it's very natural to want to find love and romance. It sucks that it's so hard! But here's to living our best single lives and keeping hope that we may well find that partnership one day.
posted by smorgasbord at 5:32 PM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also, I want to add: it's very natural to want to find love and romance. It sucks that it's so hard! But here's to living our best single lives and keeping hope that we may well find that partnership one day.
posted by smorgasbord at 5:32 PM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
I was like this for my entire romantic life before I met my husband, and it was partly because a) I was very attracted to people who would reject or be hot-and-cold with me, because winning them felt like, well, winning. and b) I was not very attracted to people who pursued me, because I judged them as being desperate if they liked me, because I didn't like me.
It's hard how to pinpoint what changed for me. It wasn't therapy, and it wasn't a guy, it wasn't getting older or more mature, or learning to love myself, and it definitely wasn't meeting people offline. I wish I could plot a path to a happy ending for you but I can't; what I can tell you is that I often think it is more a matter of luck, circumstance, or accident than actual worth... meaning, it's not that you don't deserve what you seek, but that what you seek is actually really hard to find.
posted by sm1tten at 6:15 PM on September 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's hard how to pinpoint what changed for me. It wasn't therapy, and it wasn't a guy, it wasn't getting older or more mature, or learning to love myself, and it definitely wasn't meeting people offline. I wish I could plot a path to a happy ending for you but I can't; what I can tell you is that I often think it is more a matter of luck, circumstance, or accident than actual worth... meaning, it's not that you don't deserve what you seek, but that what you seek is actually really hard to find.
posted by sm1tten at 6:15 PM on September 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
I feel like the underlying subtext of your post is "I'm not good enough." I.e. you're not pretty/attractive/sexy/good personality enough, and this latest rejection from this guy who you were interested in, and who showed signs of being interested in you, confirms that. Because if you were X, then he would Y. If you were pretty/attractive/sexy/good personality enough, he'd want to be in a relationship with you.
So there's a few things to address here: First, there's the belief that relationships are based on physical attraction, having a good personality, and chemistry/spark. Underlying that is thinking you need to be generally appealing and someone will choose you to be in a relationship, and there you have your stamp of approval of finally being Good Enough. I don't know if this resonates, but if it does, I don't blame you for having these beliefs because it's totally how women have been conditioned since birth.
Ask Polly talks about how she was ashamed to be herself, but once she decided to give no fucks about who she was, she says "I went to this wedding and I was mobbed by guys. I could finally see clearly that half of them just wanted to sleep with me, and weren’t looking for anything serious [which is happening to you too, OP]. The other half was deluded into thinking I was super fun and easy going around the clock (um, no) and that seemed like a great kind of a girlfriend to have. Maybe one of them was actually into me, but he was wrong in thinking that we’d be good together. I could see that." I hope you can get to this point of seeing clearly too, and saturday sun's comment illustrates this perfectly too. When she decided to be unapologetically herself with all her "negative" qualities along with the good, she found someone that was really compatible with her.
You say that people tell you that you're nice, smart, interesting. This reminds me of another Ask Polly where she says "You're so good at being GOOD. But how good are you at being YOU?" And then she talks about what actually makes a spark. Another great column to read.
So you need to figure out who you are and what you want, and what you need and want in a partner, and do your own rejecting/weeding out. Easier said than done, I know, and I'm glad you're looking into therapy.
I am always attracted to men who are unavailable in some way. I've gone on to pursue men who have expressed mild interest at best
Others have already brought this up, so I'll reiterate: you need to choose better and understand why you're attracted to unavailable men (baggagereclaim.co.uk is great for looking more into this). You need to find someone who wants the same thing as you, but again, you first need to figure out clearly what you want and why. I agree with the comment that you might be a little passive - you're waiting to be chosen, but did this guy meet your standards? (Besides being attractive and having good discussions) What are they? Which goes back to: what do you want in a partner? Maybe you think it's not ok to be picky, but you should be picky and reject people who aren't right for you.
Is this guy one of the people who's unavailable in some way? Does he want the same things as you, did you talk about that at all? It's not like you have to BE something/someone to "make" someone want to be in a relationship with you; they have to want the same things as you. So don't be afraid to have those types of conversations early on and state clearly what you want. The right people will like that (and want the same things); the wrong people will be turned off by that. And that's ok, that's not an indication that something is wrong with you - be grateful that they've weeded themselves out early and you don't have to waste your time.
posted by foxjacket at 6:26 PM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
So there's a few things to address here: First, there's the belief that relationships are based on physical attraction, having a good personality, and chemistry/spark. Underlying that is thinking you need to be generally appealing and someone will choose you to be in a relationship, and there you have your stamp of approval of finally being Good Enough. I don't know if this resonates, but if it does, I don't blame you for having these beliefs because it's totally how women have been conditioned since birth.
Ask Polly talks about how she was ashamed to be herself, but once she decided to give no fucks about who she was, she says "I went to this wedding and I was mobbed by guys. I could finally see clearly that half of them just wanted to sleep with me, and weren’t looking for anything serious [which is happening to you too, OP]. The other half was deluded into thinking I was super fun and easy going around the clock (um, no) and that seemed like a great kind of a girlfriend to have. Maybe one of them was actually into me, but he was wrong in thinking that we’d be good together. I could see that." I hope you can get to this point of seeing clearly too, and saturday sun's comment illustrates this perfectly too. When she decided to be unapologetically herself with all her "negative" qualities along with the good, she found someone that was really compatible with her.
You say that people tell you that you're nice, smart, interesting. This reminds me of another Ask Polly where she says "You're so good at being GOOD. But how good are you at being YOU?" And then she talks about what actually makes a spark. Another great column to read.
So you need to figure out who you are and what you want, and what you need and want in a partner, and do your own rejecting/weeding out. Easier said than done, I know, and I'm glad you're looking into therapy.
I am always attracted to men who are unavailable in some way. I've gone on to pursue men who have expressed mild interest at best
Others have already brought this up, so I'll reiterate: you need to choose better and understand why you're attracted to unavailable men (baggagereclaim.co.uk is great for looking more into this). You need to find someone who wants the same thing as you, but again, you first need to figure out clearly what you want and why. I agree with the comment that you might be a little passive - you're waiting to be chosen, but did this guy meet your standards? (Besides being attractive and having good discussions) What are they? Which goes back to: what do you want in a partner? Maybe you think it's not ok to be picky, but you should be picky and reject people who aren't right for you.
Is this guy one of the people who's unavailable in some way? Does he want the same things as you, did you talk about that at all? It's not like you have to BE something/someone to "make" someone want to be in a relationship with you; they have to want the same things as you. So don't be afraid to have those types of conversations early on and state clearly what you want. The right people will like that (and want the same things); the wrong people will be turned off by that. And that's ok, that's not an indication that something is wrong with you - be grateful that they've weeded themselves out early and you don't have to waste your time.
posted by foxjacket at 6:26 PM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Any chance you’re a POC dating white people? I think that doubles the difficulty level if so. (I’m also POC and have observed firsthand how it can just make things a bit more challenging).
I would say to invest some money / energy / guidance from friends who are savvy in these areas…. into making some quick changes to help you feel more confident. Cool new haircut? Great new eyeglasses frames? Killer leather jacket or some outfits you absolutely love? Take a cool hobby class you enjoy talking about? Start a movement habit that makes you feel more grounded and connected to your body? Being more confident helps quite a bit in the dating arena, especially if cultural differences and racial baggage are at all at play.
Good luck!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:46 PM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
I would say to invest some money / energy / guidance from friends who are savvy in these areas…. into making some quick changes to help you feel more confident. Cool new haircut? Great new eyeglasses frames? Killer leather jacket or some outfits you absolutely love? Take a cool hobby class you enjoy talking about? Start a movement habit that makes you feel more grounded and connected to your body? Being more confident helps quite a bit in the dating arena, especially if cultural differences and racial baggage are at all at play.
Good luck!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:46 PM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
The only times people have felt chemistry with me is when I have said things that really had the potential to shock or be uncouth. Not even necessarily sexual! Just opinions that were a little unorthodox or a topic people shied away from but I just went in for it. I think this is that authenticity piece some people are talking about. Something that surprised and made people laugh because they couldn’t imagine it coming out of my mouth. And a real true enthusiasm for being ALIVE. I’m like honestly average looking but almost everyone I know tells me I’m stunning. But I actually know that it’s the amount of Alive that I push through my pores that makes people think that.
And I am super comfortable in my own body in a way that I think contributes to chemistry. I’m enthusiastic about other peoples’ bodies. I’m not afraid to give compliments that open me up for the rejection of someone not liking me as much as I like them.
Chemistry is like a process of one upping each other just a little bit at every point. You give me this energy, I’m gonna give just a little more back. It’s the ramp up and both people contributing to that and taking a progression of risks. Little ones. But also risking that you are taking things just a little bit further into the spicy realm. Over and over. With consent! But also in the moment being sure that there’s a give and take where you are passing back and forth the ramp up. Otherwise, yeah, it can feel nice but that doesn’t mean there’s that sparky chemistry to find out what will happen *next* time. Because they have a good idea based on having been the driver *this* time. Chemistry is surprise and and enticement and creating that space where it feels like something surprising and wonderful will happen next.
It’s a skill. I honestly highly recommend calling a sex phone line and noticing how it works. Or paying a cam girl show. Or whatever is legal where you are. Because chemistry CAN be created and that doesn’t make it less real or authentic. Kinda the opposite, because it takes knowledge and skill and practice to be sure enough of yourself to be authentic in these ways.
posted by Bottlecap at 11:41 PM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
And I am super comfortable in my own body in a way that I think contributes to chemistry. I’m enthusiastic about other peoples’ bodies. I’m not afraid to give compliments that open me up for the rejection of someone not liking me as much as I like them.
Chemistry is like a process of one upping each other just a little bit at every point. You give me this energy, I’m gonna give just a little more back. It’s the ramp up and both people contributing to that and taking a progression of risks. Little ones. But also risking that you are taking things just a little bit further into the spicy realm. Over and over. With consent! But also in the moment being sure that there’s a give and take where you are passing back and forth the ramp up. Otherwise, yeah, it can feel nice but that doesn’t mean there’s that sparky chemistry to find out what will happen *next* time. Because they have a good idea based on having been the driver *this* time. Chemistry is surprise and and enticement and creating that space where it feels like something surprising and wonderful will happen next.
It’s a skill. I honestly highly recommend calling a sex phone line and noticing how it works. Or paying a cam girl show. Or whatever is legal where you are. Because chemistry CAN be created and that doesn’t make it less real or authentic. Kinda the opposite, because it takes knowledge and skill and practice to be sure enough of yourself to be authentic in these ways.
posted by Bottlecap at 11:41 PM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
The men I meet and "date" (usually from apps) seem to ... want to have sex with me
I'm going to be blunt:
Have you tried having sex with them? Are you sexually attracted to them and expressing it?
(Disclaimer about consenting adults and whatnot.) People like people who like them and show it.
(You don't actually sound like you're really *interested* in relationships/romance/sex. If you're not that's totally cool! Have other kinds of meaningful relationships! Stop letting society define you! Be yourself! But nobody got a boyfriend/girlfriend by *not kissing*)
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 1:06 AM on September 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm going to be blunt:
Have you tried having sex with them? Are you sexually attracted to them and expressing it?
(Disclaimer about consenting adults and whatnot.) People like people who like them and show it.
(You don't actually sound like you're really *interested* in relationships/romance/sex. If you're not that's totally cool! Have other kinds of meaningful relationships! Stop letting society define you! Be yourself! But nobody got a boyfriend/girlfriend by *not kissing*)
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 1:06 AM on September 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
There comes a point where you've known someone for enough hours that it's time to get frisky. If you wait too long, you become friends and it's too late. You've known and liked each other long enough and haven't gotten all intimate and doing it now would be weird. It's like holding out for the girl next door that you've known for years and neither of you has initiated anything in that time and why are you doing it now? Sounds like a True Love wins in the end fantasy like The Princess Bride.
Adult wise, you can only put that off for so long before you have to take the plunge and flip the switch and take the chance to find out if the two of you work out as a romantic couple or not.
Sleeping together without any funny stuff... maybe once. You are getting yourself friendzoned. Nice cute girl, I like her, she doesn't want me, fine, still like her, we'll be friends, then it's weird and awkward to start up something more serious. There's a window or door that closes.
And totally, just be yourself. There are the oddest of things that attract two people together and putting on a false front is a recipe for failure. Be true to yourself, don't wait too long to take the chance.
posted by zengargoyle at 2:34 AM on September 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Adult wise, you can only put that off for so long before you have to take the plunge and flip the switch and take the chance to find out if the two of you work out as a romantic couple or not.
Sleeping together without any funny stuff... maybe once. You are getting yourself friendzoned. Nice cute girl, I like her, she doesn't want me, fine, still like her, we'll be friends, then it's weird and awkward to start up something more serious. There's a window or door that closes.
And totally, just be yourself. There are the oddest of things that attract two people together and putting on a false front is a recipe for failure. Be true to yourself, don't wait too long to take the chance.
posted by zengargoyle at 2:34 AM on September 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
I say blame this on modern dating (i.e. apps), because modern dating is weird. It's hard to shoehorn everything that you value into meeting and connecting with a person you're meeting for the first time without a connection that's already there. And that's what we have to do, stumble into a stranger based on a self-appraisal and some photos and see how long it takes for the real person to emerge from behind the profile. It's a fraught atmosphere that isn't conducive to romance.
A suggestion: take a vacation from the apps and get yourself into the social world of shared interests. If you're really into watching rowing and you join a rowing club, even if only as a spectator, you're going to meet other people who have awesome stories about rowing, who want to go do rowing things with you, who get excited listening to you be a nerd about regattas (and having you listen to their stories, too). That is where romance develops, in excitement and interest.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:11 AM on September 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
A suggestion: take a vacation from the apps and get yourself into the social world of shared interests. If you're really into watching rowing and you join a rowing club, even if only as a spectator, you're going to meet other people who have awesome stories about rowing, who want to go do rowing things with you, who get excited listening to you be a nerd about regattas (and having you listen to their stories, too). That is where romance develops, in excitement and interest.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:11 AM on September 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Adult wise, you can only put that off for so long before you have to take the plunge and flip the switch and take the chance to find out if the two of you work out as a romantic couple or not. . . .There's a window or door that closes.
Eh. Sort of. I knew the guy I'm dating for literal decades before we tried to figure out whether we work as a romantic couple. But to the points of late afternoon dreaming hotel and bottlecap, what flipped the switch for us was an exciting shared interest that we spent a bunch of time on together (platonically!), and then eventually we both kind of realized that we were even more excited to see each other than to do the hobby. Without that experience I don't know that we ever would have shifted gears.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:45 AM on September 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Eh. Sort of. I knew the guy I'm dating for literal decades before we tried to figure out whether we work as a romantic couple. But to the points of late afternoon dreaming hotel and bottlecap, what flipped the switch for us was an exciting shared interest that we spent a bunch of time on together (platonically!), and then eventually we both kind of realized that we were even more excited to see each other than to do the hobby. Without that experience I don't know that we ever would have shifted gears.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:45 AM on September 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Some of the advice here is well-meaning but not practical. I am a 34 year old single mom of a special needs child. I’m attractive, in shape, definitely smarter and weirder than average, homeowner, no debt, my ex is rich and actually has primary custody, I have a good lucrative career, etc. And I also get rejected over and over. Even by single dads (especially by single dads, weirdly). I have to use online dating because I don’t meet men otherwise. And I’m going to be really honest with you, the only thing that actually worked for me to get a boyfriend at all was to pick a good man I could tolerate and who clearly showed interest in me and settle hard.
Like I absolutely love that everyone here is saying to be your authentic self, to be less passive, and all of that. But the reality is, men have more options than you think and that’s almost certainly why they’re not with you, not because you’re not “clicking” or “not being authentic enough.” The vast majority of people, maybe especially men, very especially over 40, aren’t looking for their true quirky soulmate woman. They’re looking for the “best deal.”
Now, if you happen to meet a true quirky soulmate seeker, fantastic, obviously go for it. But in the meantime, here is my practical advice. Seriously look at the pool of men who actually want you (yes, they probably will seem desperate. They probably will actually be the more desperate men) and pick one with good character who you can tolerate and who gives back to you enough to make it worth it. It’s not fun, magical advice. But it’s advice that works.
posted by stockpuppet at 6:51 AM on September 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
Like I absolutely love that everyone here is saying to be your authentic self, to be less passive, and all of that. But the reality is, men have more options than you think and that’s almost certainly why they’re not with you, not because you’re not “clicking” or “not being authentic enough.” The vast majority of people, maybe especially men, very especially over 40, aren’t looking for their true quirky soulmate woman. They’re looking for the “best deal.”
Now, if you happen to meet a true quirky soulmate seeker, fantastic, obviously go for it. But in the meantime, here is my practical advice. Seriously look at the pool of men who actually want you (yes, they probably will seem desperate. They probably will actually be the more desperate men) and pick one with good character who you can tolerate and who gives back to you enough to make it worth it. It’s not fun, magical advice. But it’s advice that works.
posted by stockpuppet at 6:51 AM on September 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
So I WAS romantically successful until I found myself single at 40, and wow, the dating pool is bleak for me now. (I don't think it's reasonable for women our age to consider ourselves failures given the options out there: sure there are some great ones, but the competition for them is fierce.) I spent some years actively trying to find a life partner, grieving that I could not, and feeling pretty crappy about myself because of it.
I'm still not thrilled to be perpetually single and keep my eyes open for potential partners, but eventually I pretty much shrugged and gave up and am building the best possible life I can envision alone. I'm much happier focusing on the life I have instead of the one that is unlikely to be an option for me. It took time to get here, but it's let me focus on things I like about myself and my life rather than on anything I might perceive as lacking.
Stockpuppet's suggestion of settling is also not a bad option. It doesn't work for me because I enjoy time alone too much to want to reduce it in favor of time with someone I'm not head-over-heels for, but that's a personal quirk.
posted by metasarah at 9:05 AM on September 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm still not thrilled to be perpetually single and keep my eyes open for potential partners, but eventually I pretty much shrugged and gave up and am building the best possible life I can envision alone. I'm much happier focusing on the life I have instead of the one that is unlikely to be an option for me. It took time to get here, but it's let me focus on things I like about myself and my life rather than on anything I might perceive as lacking.
Stockpuppet's suggestion of settling is also not a bad option. It doesn't work for me because I enjoy time alone too much to want to reduce it in favor of time with someone I'm not head-over-heels for, but that's a personal quirk.
posted by metasarah at 9:05 AM on September 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Mods, go ahead and delete this comment if it's too chat-filtery but I need to say one last thing to cement my point, because the opposition concerns me, and to me this is genuinely an ethical matter. It's disrespectful to say that what I'm saying is not practical. I recommend this practice: find an emotionally-focused (EFT) therapist and practice identifying your true feelings and express yourself. This is unimaginably difficult for most people who struggle with relationships, though certainly not impossible if you keep at it. This process will likely feel unsettling and even humiliating at first. You will need to always respect your own intrinsic boundaries about how much to share. I say that because my advice might sound like I'm suggesting people over-share and I explicitly am against doing anything that feels wrong.
I'mma respectfully disagree with the idea that being your authentic self is 'unrealistic', which, I assume may also be going through your head. It's hard to fully believe what I'm saying, I know. You're inclined to think that maybe the best chance at contentedness is for you to pretzel yourself into a culturally acceptable feminine shape so that you and some mediocre schlub can tolerate one another. I personally just can't force myself to be okay with that, because what does that even mean? People are telling you to give up because that's what they consider practical? Tell me, how else will there be a social revolution where women and all other genders can just exist in their own bodies and express themselves if we keep doing what the patriarchy insists we do: "Settle. Settle for mediocrity. Settle for crappy work conditions, too, while you're at it. Settle for being painfully alone most of the time, for not getting help from people. Settle for some poop in your milkshake." Wtf no.
I know it sounds like these stellar people I'm taking about just straight up don't exist. Oh, trust me, I was cemented in that mindset for like 10 years. But what do you have to lose by being radically yourself? You can always go back to trying your old ways. I sound like my therapist here: "These people you describe as impossibly wonderful DO exist."
I may sound a bit harsh here but please, readers, don't take this personally, because it's systemic: The most internalized policing and worst misogyny I've experienced has been from women. Many men are misogynistic, but women often think they're somehow immune to it, which is far more insidious. I can write 25 more pages about the feminist theory explaining this but I'm trying to be concise. You are not exempt from misogyny. You are not immune to patriarchal propaganda. But ultimately, if settling sounds like it feels right to you, this is your life and your choice. Do what feels right. But that also takes knowing yourself (see, you don't get to avoid this part). And I just don't buy that that would feel right for you, as someone who loves romance.
I do agree with this: the vast majority of people aren't looking for authenticity. But you aren't trying to date the vast majority of people. You just want one good one. You're only in your 40's––sooo many success stories about people forming genuinely incredible relationships in their 50's, 60's, beyond (and so many non-success stories about young people staying in meh relationships for decades too!). You can date men in their 30's. Again, society/our culture is 'broken' because it's currently built on alienation and isolation, and most people fall for accepting that as an unchangeable fact. And you sound crazy and idealistic like me if you don't drink their kool-aid, but the 'crazy' ones are the only ones with a chance at happiness.
This common idea that men have more options is frankly offensive to the great men. They're not happy pursuing a mediocre connection either. They want someone who loves romance, too. Talking about men transactionally, like they're good-enough commodities is cruel and dehumanizing and won't get you romance. Maybe it'll get you a temporarily semi-functional business partnership.
I met my partner on a dating app. I've met some of his friends, who are very attractive, unbelievably kind, intelligent, and interesting single guys around your age, struggling to find a real connection in a sea of women who are too afraid to be themselves, understandably, in this culture that hates women. What matters most to me about my relationship is the memories I have of expressing my truest self and feeling him cherish the moments in which he gets to witness the true me. In a sense, it feels like even if we do end up parting ways someday, he will never truly be 'away' because that memory of connection will be embedded in me. My therapist was right. Ultimately, that's what people mean when they say the real person you're looking for is yourself. Ok I'm done I promise. :)
posted by saturday sun at 9:33 AM on September 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'mma respectfully disagree with the idea that being your authentic self is 'unrealistic', which, I assume may also be going through your head. It's hard to fully believe what I'm saying, I know. You're inclined to think that maybe the best chance at contentedness is for you to pretzel yourself into a culturally acceptable feminine shape so that you and some mediocre schlub can tolerate one another. I personally just can't force myself to be okay with that, because what does that even mean? People are telling you to give up because that's what they consider practical? Tell me, how else will there be a social revolution where women and all other genders can just exist in their own bodies and express themselves if we keep doing what the patriarchy insists we do: "Settle. Settle for mediocrity. Settle for crappy work conditions, too, while you're at it. Settle for being painfully alone most of the time, for not getting help from people. Settle for some poop in your milkshake." Wtf no.
I know it sounds like these stellar people I'm taking about just straight up don't exist. Oh, trust me, I was cemented in that mindset for like 10 years. But what do you have to lose by being radically yourself? You can always go back to trying your old ways. I sound like my therapist here: "These people you describe as impossibly wonderful DO exist."
I may sound a bit harsh here but please, readers, don't take this personally, because it's systemic: The most internalized policing and worst misogyny I've experienced has been from women. Many men are misogynistic, but women often think they're somehow immune to it, which is far more insidious. I can write 25 more pages about the feminist theory explaining this but I'm trying to be concise. You are not exempt from misogyny. You are not immune to patriarchal propaganda. But ultimately, if settling sounds like it feels right to you, this is your life and your choice. Do what feels right. But that also takes knowing yourself (see, you don't get to avoid this part). And I just don't buy that that would feel right for you, as someone who loves romance.
I do agree with this: the vast majority of people aren't looking for authenticity. But you aren't trying to date the vast majority of people. You just want one good one. You're only in your 40's––sooo many success stories about people forming genuinely incredible relationships in their 50's, 60's, beyond (and so many non-success stories about young people staying in meh relationships for decades too!). You can date men in their 30's. Again, society/our culture is 'broken' because it's currently built on alienation and isolation, and most people fall for accepting that as an unchangeable fact. And you sound crazy and idealistic like me if you don't drink their kool-aid, but the 'crazy' ones are the only ones with a chance at happiness.
This common idea that men have more options is frankly offensive to the great men. They're not happy pursuing a mediocre connection either. They want someone who loves romance, too. Talking about men transactionally, like they're good-enough commodities is cruel and dehumanizing and won't get you romance. Maybe it'll get you a temporarily semi-functional business partnership.
I met my partner on a dating app. I've met some of his friends, who are very attractive, unbelievably kind, intelligent, and interesting single guys around your age, struggling to find a real connection in a sea of women who are too afraid to be themselves, understandably, in this culture that hates women. What matters most to me about my relationship is the memories I have of expressing my truest self and feeling him cherish the moments in which he gets to witness the true me. In a sense, it feels like even if we do end up parting ways someday, he will never truly be 'away' because that memory of connection will be embedded in me. My therapist was right. Ultimately, that's what people mean when they say the real person you're looking for is yourself. Ok I'm done I promise. :)
posted by saturday sun at 9:33 AM on September 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
I would have related to your post throughout my 20s and start of my 30s. Now I've been happily partnered for almost 6 years. Like some others have expressed upthread, the change happened not really because of anything I did, but really just the luck that finally someone I was attracted to/pining for became single, and who was interested in me.
It's somewhat hard to answer your question, because though you preface this as a "pattern" you focus mainly on one guy, which makes me wonder how much dating you're actually doing. I mean, I also had this "pattern" in my 20s, but the pattern was just me being fixated/attracted to people who were either unavailable or not interested, and not actively trying to find someone else. Not exactly a winning strategy for finding someone. Does that sound like you?
The women I know who ended up marrying someone they met online all committed to doing a lot of online dating. Like, going on 1-2 dates a week with different people, months (or years) on end. Which is to say, for every "success" they had (i.e. an LTR, whether marriage or not) they went through a lot of failure. They also tend to be people who genuinely like meeting people for the sake of meeting new people - therapy can be great, but I'm not convinced that online dating works equally well for everyone, even those that are being authentic and what not. Which isn't to say don't date online, but do accept that it's a slog that entails a certain amount of unavoidable failure.
Anyway, while I'm not sure how useful it is to pick apart this one interaction:
Most recently, I guy I have befriended who I met on an app told me that he didn't experience much chemistry when we first me and so didn't pursue things further (I asked). We did sleep in the same bed and share some non-platonic activity (not kissing, and no sex at my request). However I thought we had a lot of chemistry and he told me it felt good to touch me but nope, not much physical/sexual chemistry.
My hunch is that you might be getting tripped up here by relying on a term like "chemistry" that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to everyone. You have told yourself one story about this - that he never felt any sexual interest in you the whole time, and it was 100% one-sided. Which of course hurts! But another, equally plausible story (at least based on what you've written), is that he did feel interested in you, and he enjoyed cuddling (or whatever you did) in bed, but he interpreted the fact that it didn't progress beyond that to mean there wasn't chemistry. For a lot of people, attraction/arousal requires a certain amount of expressed interest by the other person. That doesn't mean you need to move faster than you're comfortable! It just means you and this guy have mismatched paces. If you like to take things slow, that should be in your dating profile.
posted by coffeecat at 10:21 AM on September 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's somewhat hard to answer your question, because though you preface this as a "pattern" you focus mainly on one guy, which makes me wonder how much dating you're actually doing. I mean, I also had this "pattern" in my 20s, but the pattern was just me being fixated/attracted to people who were either unavailable or not interested, and not actively trying to find someone else. Not exactly a winning strategy for finding someone. Does that sound like you?
The women I know who ended up marrying someone they met online all committed to doing a lot of online dating. Like, going on 1-2 dates a week with different people, months (or years) on end. Which is to say, for every "success" they had (i.e. an LTR, whether marriage or not) they went through a lot of failure. They also tend to be people who genuinely like meeting people for the sake of meeting new people - therapy can be great, but I'm not convinced that online dating works equally well for everyone, even those that are being authentic and what not. Which isn't to say don't date online, but do accept that it's a slog that entails a certain amount of unavoidable failure.
Anyway, while I'm not sure how useful it is to pick apart this one interaction:
Most recently, I guy I have befriended who I met on an app told me that he didn't experience much chemistry when we first me and so didn't pursue things further (I asked). We did sleep in the same bed and share some non-platonic activity (not kissing, and no sex at my request). However I thought we had a lot of chemistry and he told me it felt good to touch me but nope, not much physical/sexual chemistry.
My hunch is that you might be getting tripped up here by relying on a term like "chemistry" that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to everyone. You have told yourself one story about this - that he never felt any sexual interest in you the whole time, and it was 100% one-sided. Which of course hurts! But another, equally plausible story (at least based on what you've written), is that he did feel interested in you, and he enjoyed cuddling (or whatever you did) in bed, but he interpreted the fact that it didn't progress beyond that to mean there wasn't chemistry. For a lot of people, attraction/arousal requires a certain amount of expressed interest by the other person. That doesn't mean you need to move faster than you're comfortable! It just means you and this guy have mismatched paces. If you like to take things slow, that should be in your dating profile.
posted by coffeecat at 10:21 AM on September 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
I feel like the only way he would not be feeling chemistry, when we have so much intellectual closeness, is if he finds me physically unappealing.
I'm stopping by to comment specifically on this line in your question, because in my experience, "lack of chemistry" means exactly the opposite; it's what people say when they feel like they "should" be interested in you because you are objectively attractive, you have an intellectual/emotional connection, etc., but somehow the spark is just not there. As someone above pointed out, he might even be feeling a lack of chemistry because not much happened when you shared a bed, rather than the other way around (ie that little happened because the chemistry wasn't there).
The women I know who found somebody through dating apps approached it almost like a job search, committing to going on a large number of first dates every week, as much to get over that initial nervousness of meeting somebody as to finding the elusive "chemistry."
I do think it's a bit sad that we are in time and place where human relationships have become so commodified, and that does make it a bit more difficult to find genuine connection. The advice that you're getting to look at other aspects of your life, and get engaged in things that really interest you outside relationships, is good, and not just because you might meet someone that way. Many people are choosing to pursue full, non-romance centric lives rather than "tolerate" (or be tolerated by) someone who is with them because they don't think they can get "a better deal."*
*I'd be devastated if I ever found out that's how my partner views me, and I don't think my gender has anything to do with that. Men are people too!
Upon preview: more or less what the wise Coffeecat said.
posted by rpfields at 11:22 AM on September 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm stopping by to comment specifically on this line in your question, because in my experience, "lack of chemistry" means exactly the opposite; it's what people say when they feel like they "should" be interested in you because you are objectively attractive, you have an intellectual/emotional connection, etc., but somehow the spark is just not there. As someone above pointed out, he might even be feeling a lack of chemistry because not much happened when you shared a bed, rather than the other way around (ie that little happened because the chemistry wasn't there).
The women I know who found somebody through dating apps approached it almost like a job search, committing to going on a large number of first dates every week, as much to get over that initial nervousness of meeting somebody as to finding the elusive "chemistry."
I do think it's a bit sad that we are in time and place where human relationships have become so commodified, and that does make it a bit more difficult to find genuine connection. The advice that you're getting to look at other aspects of your life, and get engaged in things that really interest you outside relationships, is good, and not just because you might meet someone that way. Many people are choosing to pursue full, non-romance centric lives rather than "tolerate" (or be tolerated by) someone who is with them because they don't think they can get "a better deal."*
*I'd be devastated if I ever found out that's how my partner views me, and I don't think my gender has anything to do with that. Men are people too!
Upon preview: more or less what the wise Coffeecat said.
posted by rpfields at 11:22 AM on September 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
+1000 to saturday sun. So right on the money about patriarchy and misogyny and how women perpetuate it as well. Also, here's Ask Polly's latest column on substack. Again, saturday sun echoes a lot of what Ask Polly is saying. I think they must be long-lost sisters or something.
posted by foxjacket at 5:10 PM on September 9, 2022
posted by foxjacket at 5:10 PM on September 9, 2022
I get why I’m getting pushback on my advice to settle. I knew I would, and I really do understand 100%. Settling doesn’t deserve the harsh rep it gets though. Honestly, being along in middle age is really hard if you don’t have supportive family and friends- not everyone does. And many, many people do settle and don’t regret it. There is obviously a line beyond which you can’t make yourself settle and it’s really unfair to everyone. But there IS a way to sustainably settle long term for someone who is a little more into you and lots and lots of middle aged people do it (men and women.) I’d certainly at least try it if I wasn’t having any success at all.
posted by stockpuppet at 6:28 PM on September 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by stockpuppet at 6:28 PM on September 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I would argue that you didn't, in fact, actually "settle" if you are so satisfied with your choice that you are recommending it to others. And that's great! As for me at almost 40 and single with no kids? So glad I never settled but everyone is different. Both "desperate" men and women (and beyond) are super unappealing to me because I've worked so hard on emotional resilience; it's still a struggle at times but I'm fighting the good fight. I do think there's something to be said about being more flexible on things, like ideal income and height, but again I don't consider that settling either. Being single doesn't mean being alone for me as I have worked to not just find supportive friends but be one, too. I think we'd benefit greatly as a society if we put as much effort into our platonic friendships as our romantic ones. And I certainly would never tell someone to "settle" for meh friends, eek. That said, I appreciate the wildly different suggestion to "settle" because it goes against conventional wisdom and surely is exactly what at least a few people want or need to hear.
posted by smorgasbord at 3:37 PM on September 10, 2022
posted by smorgasbord at 3:37 PM on September 10, 2022
To make a gender generalization based on things male friends have reported, I sometimes think that when men say "we had chemistry", what they seem to mean is, "her desire for me turned me on".
Women, overall, get a lot more experience of men expressing desire for them, including in ways that can feel intrusive and scary like catcalling etc. But most regular men don't get a lot of feedback on their sexiness or desirability. So whenever a woman has expressed a lot of desire for one of my male friends, that's very novel and exciting and intoxicating for him, and his own libido responds with enthusiasm - hence, chemistry.
If your attraction to men is more on the restrained end of the spectrum (for instance if you are slower to kiss or have sex), they likely won't read it as chemistry. The word chemistry often translates as "we made out extravagantly / we had sex like rabbits / we couldn't control our desire / our sexual activities were more rapidly-escalating or had an intensity or connectedness beyond what I'm accustomed to."
This is not to say that you should ever step past your own physical boundaries in terms of whether you WANT to have sex, kiss, etc. It's totally ok to want to do whatever you want to do. If you don't want to do a lot of physical stuff, you shouldn't! And if there's a reason for that (for instance religion, culture, ace sexuality, trauma history, being shy, etc), maybe investigate a dating platform or social scene that has potential partners who have that in common with you.
If you both enter into dating with some shared expectations of the speed you'll move at in terms of physical actions and emotional intimacy, then the pace is less likely to be seen as the main indicator of chemistry, and then other forms of chemistry may be more easily detected.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:11 PM on September 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
Women, overall, get a lot more experience of men expressing desire for them, including in ways that can feel intrusive and scary like catcalling etc. But most regular men don't get a lot of feedback on their sexiness or desirability. So whenever a woman has expressed a lot of desire for one of my male friends, that's very novel and exciting and intoxicating for him, and his own libido responds with enthusiasm - hence, chemistry.
If your attraction to men is more on the restrained end of the spectrum (for instance if you are slower to kiss or have sex), they likely won't read it as chemistry. The word chemistry often translates as "we made out extravagantly / we had sex like rabbits / we couldn't control our desire / our sexual activities were more rapidly-escalating or had an intensity or connectedness beyond what I'm accustomed to."
This is not to say that you should ever step past your own physical boundaries in terms of whether you WANT to have sex, kiss, etc. It's totally ok to want to do whatever you want to do. If you don't want to do a lot of physical stuff, you shouldn't! And if there's a reason for that (for instance religion, culture, ace sexuality, trauma history, being shy, etc), maybe investigate a dating platform or social scene that has potential partners who have that in common with you.
If you both enter into dating with some shared expectations of the speed you'll move at in terms of physical actions and emotional intimacy, then the pace is less likely to be seen as the main indicator of chemistry, and then other forms of chemistry may be more easily detected.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:11 PM on September 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
This may be cold comfort right now - but It may be that a large part of the turmoil you're feeling may be biochemistry, and that very well may fade. I had almost exactly these same feelings myself in my early 40s, right when perimenopause was starting for me and the hormones were going haywire. But then, as my hormones started to turn off all the lights and shut down...I started to have less and less patience with the dating app nonsense, and then that turned into less and less patience with dating itself...and those "why doesn't anyone want meeeeeeeeee" feelings started getting quieter and quieter.
Then the day came when they'd stopped altogether and I was well and truly into menopause, and that's when the entire rest of my life rushed in like "finally, we've been waiting for you to pay attention to us! Here, let's do all this other stuff like gardening and going to movies and going for long walks and going camping and reading books and prowling museums and trying to make my own ice cream and..." and it was a sense of giant enormous peace and freedom. I'm still open to having a relationship if the stars align, don't get me wrong, but....that internal pressure to go get one is just...gone.
I also have to admit that I got a plum of a job at about this time and was also finally financially solvent at long last, which helped a good deal. But it was an enormous wakeup call that "there is life outside relationships and that life can be pretty damn awesome".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:56 PM on September 8, 2022 [20 favorites]