What are 10-15 books to read to make it seem like you went to college?
November 14, 2022 11:53 PM Subscribe
Met a girl who got out of an abusive relationship and is starting over. Had a kid early. Bad parents. The whole deal. Yet somehow she has the poise and personality of someone who's educated...even if she isn't. Is very self conscious of the fact. I said she can fake it if she just reads enough and retains it. So what should be on that reading list today?
Does she want to read college-assigned fiction so she gets the funny (and not-so-funny) references that people make, even though it concentrates on the very white, very male Western Cannon? Even though most of the books and plays were never designed to be analyzed, but read/watched and enjoyed?
Even if she does, is she wedded to reading lit "dry" and without guidance?
Re: dry, I mean, I read The Odyssey several times when it was assigned for various classes 35+ years ago, but ran into a graphic novel version a few years ago, and it was quite good and compelling, and then read Margaret Atwood's The Penelopiad and felt much more excited by those two works than the original.
And as far as guidance goes, one can read Fitzgerald's or Hemingway's novels as novels, as people did when they were contemporary literature, before they were studied and analyzed. The same goes for Austen. But reading, without the annoying strictures of a course (or Cliff Notes) may leave her feeling like she's only had half the experience. What does she want from this mini-syllabus?
If she wants to build her confidence with English lit, for example, I'd suggest she start with something that feels familiar, that's easy to read, and perhaps that's written by and about women. Austen's Pride & Prejudice because everyone still talks about it (and because it shows how we are not very far from the limitations on women, even 200 years later) or Brontë's Jane Eyre because Jane suffered so many abuses but showed resiliency might be good to start.
Does she want to know history and politics and how the 21st century world came to be this way? In which case, she might want to start with the Crash Course history videos, which are fun. I've got advanced degrees but watch an episode of Crash Course almost every day while I eat lunch.
There are musty old books that we read because they are assigned, and there are wonderful books (classics and otherwise) that lift our voices and help us better understand humanity. Encourage her to pick books that will elevate her spirit and not just make her feel like she's covered the same dusty ground as others.
And good for her for forging ahead in her life!
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 12:26 AM on November 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
Even if she does, is she wedded to reading lit "dry" and without guidance?
Re: dry, I mean, I read The Odyssey several times when it was assigned for various classes 35+ years ago, but ran into a graphic novel version a few years ago, and it was quite good and compelling, and then read Margaret Atwood's The Penelopiad and felt much more excited by those two works than the original.
And as far as guidance goes, one can read Fitzgerald's or Hemingway's novels as novels, as people did when they were contemporary literature, before they were studied and analyzed. The same goes for Austen. But reading, without the annoying strictures of a course (or Cliff Notes) may leave her feeling like she's only had half the experience. What does she want from this mini-syllabus?
If she wants to build her confidence with English lit, for example, I'd suggest she start with something that feels familiar, that's easy to read, and perhaps that's written by and about women. Austen's Pride & Prejudice because everyone still talks about it (and because it shows how we are not very far from the limitations on women, even 200 years later) or Brontë's Jane Eyre because Jane suffered so many abuses but showed resiliency might be good to start.
Does she want to know history and politics and how the 21st century world came to be this way? In which case, she might want to start with the Crash Course history videos, which are fun. I've got advanced degrees but watch an episode of Crash Course almost every day while I eat lunch.
There are musty old books that we read because they are assigned, and there are wonderful books (classics and otherwise) that lift our voices and help us better understand humanity. Encourage her to pick books that will elevate her spirit and not just make her feel like she's covered the same dusty ground as others.
And good for her for forging ahead in her life!
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 12:26 AM on November 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
I want to say that people who hold a lack of a college education against her are incredibly shallow and don't deserve her effort. But sometimes "deserve"'s got nothing to do with it, and sounding college-educated can come with certain privileges, so it can indeed be useful to fake it.
Some important things to consider:
1) Whatever syllabus she decides to follow, she doesn't actually have to read the entire book. Let's face it, most people who did go to college probably didn't. Sparks notes, wikipedia plot synopsis, executive summaries, a couple of memes to catch some references. Personally, I would actually try to read at least a couple of pages of the actual book too, to get the flavour and develop my own emotional response, because emotions make information stickier in your memory. But that's optional.
2) It's way less about the books you're read, and way more about how you talk about the books you've read. The canon has become gigantic, disputed, and generally unwieldy; everyone is bound to have - often continent sized - gaps. Not having read any particular book can't be counted against you. But you need to have something to say about the books you did read.
I would advise your friend to pick a couple of books that actually interest her, and pepare some talking points/hot takes. For that, you don't just read the books (or a couple of pages and a plot synopsis), you also read the reviews - by actual literary critics, but also the stuff on goodreads etc, and most importantly, positive and negative ones. And then you pick a side. If you don't feel strongly enough about the book to do that, you can always go for nuance and a middle-ground, but it's definitely useful to know what's potentially controversial about it and to be able to summarize the main arguments of the different camps.
I recommend How to Talk About Books You Haven't Read, by Pierre Bayard, which is, coincidentally, a book I personally haven't read, but I feel that just underlines my point. The most important benefit of a college education is to never be overly intimidated by other people with a college education, and I have a hunch this book could also help in that regard, because it might illustrate the parlour game aspect of it all. I do hope your friend can soon see the fun it too. Fake it till you make it!
posted by sohalt at 1:21 AM on November 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
Some important things to consider:
1) Whatever syllabus she decides to follow, she doesn't actually have to read the entire book. Let's face it, most people who did go to college probably didn't. Sparks notes, wikipedia plot synopsis, executive summaries, a couple of memes to catch some references. Personally, I would actually try to read at least a couple of pages of the actual book too, to get the flavour and develop my own emotional response, because emotions make information stickier in your memory. But that's optional.
2) It's way less about the books you're read, and way more about how you talk about the books you've read. The canon has become gigantic, disputed, and generally unwieldy; everyone is bound to have - often continent sized - gaps. Not having read any particular book can't be counted against you. But you need to have something to say about the books you did read.
I would advise your friend to pick a couple of books that actually interest her, and pepare some talking points/hot takes. For that, you don't just read the books (or a couple of pages and a plot synopsis), you also read the reviews - by actual literary critics, but also the stuff on goodreads etc, and most importantly, positive and negative ones. And then you pick a side. If you don't feel strongly enough about the book to do that, you can always go for nuance and a middle-ground, but it's definitely useful to know what's potentially controversial about it and to be able to summarize the main arguments of the different camps.
I recommend How to Talk About Books You Haven't Read, by Pierre Bayard, which is, coincidentally, a book I personally haven't read, but I feel that just underlines my point. The most important benefit of a college education is to never be overly intimidated by other people with a college education, and I have a hunch this book could also help in that regard, because it might illustrate the parlour game aspect of it all. I do hope your friend can soon see the fun it too. Fake it till you make it!
posted by sohalt at 1:21 AM on November 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
The opposite of the parlor game approach is, what about the world would she like to know? History, literature, economics, physics, ecology? There’s probably an AP syllabus and a public 101 syllabus for each.
posted by clew at 2:11 AM on November 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by clew at 2:11 AM on November 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Some more tipps:
- Take notes, collect favourite quotes, write your own reviews. It helps you to collect your thoughts about the books - they will just evaporate if you don't - and it makes you think about how to communicate these thoughts, and that will make it easier to actually communciate them to others, should an opportunity present itself.
- Become really comfortable with not understanding a lot of stuff. A lot of literature is very intertextual, full of allusions, hommages, parallels, juxtapositions, implicit assumptions. If you just start out making your way through the canon, you obviously won't get a lot of those - and you might never get them all, because the canon has become so unwieldy, and because some of them are self-consciously obscure, deeply subjective, downright esoterical. That can be a bit uncomfortable, I guess - there's often a layer of meaning you can't unlock (yet, or maybe ever) - but it's also potentially really exciting, once one acquires a taste for it.
- Don't let not understanding a lot of it stop you from engaging with the material. Very often you're not expected it to get it all on first read anyway. You can absolutely have interesting conversations about books you only dimly understand. That's usually how understanding is deepened. Ideally you're honest about your gaps in knowledge, because that will make the conversation more productive, but again, if it's only about sounding college educated, that's optional. You can, at any rate, admit to the gaps, and still keep sounding college educated anyway!
I think a great benefit of the parlour game approach is that it highlights the need to be an active participant in the process. Lots of people seem to see reading as a fairly passive soaking up of information. Personally, I strongly feel, that's not the way to get the most out of it. It's not what you read, but what you make of it.
posted by sohalt at 3:13 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
- Take notes, collect favourite quotes, write your own reviews. It helps you to collect your thoughts about the books - they will just evaporate if you don't - and it makes you think about how to communicate these thoughts, and that will make it easier to actually communciate them to others, should an opportunity present itself.
- Become really comfortable with not understanding a lot of stuff. A lot of literature is very intertextual, full of allusions, hommages, parallels, juxtapositions, implicit assumptions. If you just start out making your way through the canon, you obviously won't get a lot of those - and you might never get them all, because the canon has become so unwieldy, and because some of them are self-consciously obscure, deeply subjective, downright esoterical. That can be a bit uncomfortable, I guess - there's often a layer of meaning you can't unlock (yet, or maybe ever) - but it's also potentially really exciting, once one acquires a taste for it.
- Don't let not understanding a lot of it stop you from engaging with the material. Very often you're not expected it to get it all on first read anyway. You can absolutely have interesting conversations about books you only dimly understand. That's usually how understanding is deepened. Ideally you're honest about your gaps in knowledge, because that will make the conversation more productive, but again, if it's only about sounding college educated, that's optional. You can, at any rate, admit to the gaps, and still keep sounding college educated anyway!
I think a great benefit of the parlour game approach is that it highlights the need to be an active participant in the process. Lots of people seem to see reading as a fairly passive soaking up of information. Personally, I strongly feel, that's not the way to get the most out of it. It's not what you read, but what you make of it.
posted by sohalt at 3:13 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I agree with sohalt. In my experience as someone who reads about 50 books a year and has done so for decades is that most people, including most college educated people, are actually not terribly well read at all. What they have read they often barely remember.
There is no definition of the canon that even 1% of American college graduates have actually read and honestly part of the confidence that comes from that education is precisely the knowledge that not only have you not read any Euripides but that nobody else around the dinner table has either. If they have, they don't remember it. So they don't have to feel that they couldn't possibly just pretend to have read something in case the person they're talking to has actually read that book recently, it's fine and accepted to just say that you read it a long time ago, nobody is going to test you.
I will comfortably say that my formal education and own extensive reading makes me exceptionally well read (and part of the reason I love MeFi is that in this community and in very few others I am in no way exceptional in that regard) and when I look at just about anyone's interpretation of what one should have canonically read, even ones that are very close to my own cultural background, I still come across not just things I haven't read but authors I haven't even heard of. Petronius? Doesn't ring a bell.
If what you want to do is to very quickly pick up the ability to be confident socially, then a very broad but shallow reading is called for (hopefully followed by actual reading of any that interest them but that is not required to achieve the objective in the question).
I would not use this particular list myself (because I'm Dutch and so it doesn't quite match my own cultural background enough to canonical for me) but if your friend is an English speaker of European origin, then I would I pick Harold Bloom's Western Canon as a starting point.
Having read that, I would then go to the appendix of wider works (yes I know Bloom later disowned it but whatever) which has this list. For each of the works on the list, spend no more that 20 minutes reading the wikipedia page or whatever summary sites come up on Google, learn how to pronounce the name of the author and the work, and that's enough. If you want to go a layer deeper, go to a library, get a few at a time off the shelf and read the scholarly introduction essays then maybe read the work itself for a few minutes here and there.
Finally, the criticism of Bloom's particular list has usually been that it was too rooted in his own particular history and influences. Lots of Greeks and Romans but a lot less European writing from Central or Eastern Europe and only a scattering of work other parts of the world. To be honest, to meet your friend's goal of superficially knowing enough to be confident, it is enough to just know that fact without actually having read anything from any alternative canon, but if they did want to repair that gap, there are plenty of lists online intended so supplement or replace this list.
These take three forms:
1) Add works to make the original list[s] more comprehensive or to close particular gaps. For example the Bloom list doesn't have Ibn Khaldun which I think is an omission.
2) Propose English language canons of their own
3) By far the most interesting are attempts to propose a "definitive" canon for other cultures by people from within that culture. For example a friend of mine contributed to this list: of classic works in Arabic literature also including translations. While no list is definitive and the inclusion of a Michael Crichton book is quixotic, they've also included Don Quixote and it's interesting to see what a bunch of Arab writers and intellectuals think is most essential from their language as well as from European literature.
posted by atrazine at 3:35 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
There is no definition of the canon that even 1% of American college graduates have actually read and honestly part of the confidence that comes from that education is precisely the knowledge that not only have you not read any Euripides but that nobody else around the dinner table has either. If they have, they don't remember it. So they don't have to feel that they couldn't possibly just pretend to have read something in case the person they're talking to has actually read that book recently, it's fine and accepted to just say that you read it a long time ago, nobody is going to test you.
I will comfortably say that my formal education and own extensive reading makes me exceptionally well read (and part of the reason I love MeFi is that in this community and in very few others I am in no way exceptional in that regard) and when I look at just about anyone's interpretation of what one should have canonically read, even ones that are very close to my own cultural background, I still come across not just things I haven't read but authors I haven't even heard of. Petronius? Doesn't ring a bell.
If what you want to do is to very quickly pick up the ability to be confident socially, then a very broad but shallow reading is called for (hopefully followed by actual reading of any that interest them but that is not required to achieve the objective in the question).
I would not use this particular list myself (because I'm Dutch and so it doesn't quite match my own cultural background enough to canonical for me) but if your friend is an English speaker of European origin, then I would I pick Harold Bloom's Western Canon as a starting point.
Having read that, I would then go to the appendix of wider works (yes I know Bloom later disowned it but whatever) which has this list. For each of the works on the list, spend no more that 20 minutes reading the wikipedia page or whatever summary sites come up on Google, learn how to pronounce the name of the author and the work, and that's enough. If you want to go a layer deeper, go to a library, get a few at a time off the shelf and read the scholarly introduction essays then maybe read the work itself for a few minutes here and there.
Finally, the criticism of Bloom's particular list has usually been that it was too rooted in his own particular history and influences. Lots of Greeks and Romans but a lot less European writing from Central or Eastern Europe and only a scattering of work other parts of the world. To be honest, to meet your friend's goal of superficially knowing enough to be confident, it is enough to just know that fact without actually having read anything from any alternative canon, but if they did want to repair that gap, there are plenty of lists online intended so supplement or replace this list.
These take three forms:
1) Add works to make the original list[s] more comprehensive or to close particular gaps. For example the Bloom list doesn't have Ibn Khaldun which I think is an omission.
2) Propose English language canons of their own
3) By far the most interesting are attempts to propose a "definitive" canon for other cultures by people from within that culture. For example a friend of mine contributed to this list: of classic works in Arabic literature also including translations. While no list is definitive and the inclusion of a Michael Crichton book is quixotic, they've also included Don Quixote and it's interesting to see what a bunch of Arab writers and intellectuals think is most essential from their language as well as from European literature.
posted by atrazine at 3:35 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not much to add to the great ideas above. The compendiums seem like a smart approach. And the Crash Course suggestion makes me wonder if podcasts would also be really quite useful? Perhaps fodder for next week’s post?
posted by AnOrigamiLife at 3:41 AM on November 15, 2022
posted by AnOrigamiLife at 3:41 AM on November 15, 2022
As mentioned above, a lot of the college education thing is talking about the primary sources, and/or exploring the larger influences of said text / historical event / etc.
There is a wealth of free college classes on line now! I encourage your friend to seek them out, borrow the texts from the library, and follow along! And, if needed, to search online for posted syllabi of classes they’d be interested in.
posted by Silvery Fish at 3:46 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
There is a wealth of free college classes on line now! I encourage your friend to seek them out, borrow the texts from the library, and follow along! And, if needed, to search online for posted syllabi of classes they’d be interested in.
posted by Silvery Fish at 3:46 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I believe that St John’s College offers a “Great Books” approach - you can see their reading list here: https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/great-books-reading-list. Looks comprehensive - I’m sure anyone who had done justice to that list could pass as well-educated in pretty much any company. It’s a lot longer than 10-15 books, but i doubt that many people would ever have read them all.
(But… am i the only one who’s getting a bit of a creepy Henry Higgins vibe from this question? I’m not entirely clear for whose benefit this project is intended.)
posted by Puppy McSock at 4:08 AM on November 15, 2022 [28 favorites]
(But… am i the only one who’s getting a bit of a creepy Henry Higgins vibe from this question? I’m not entirely clear for whose benefit this project is intended.)
posted by Puppy McSock at 4:08 AM on November 15, 2022 [28 favorites]
I fully agree with this endeavor!
Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions is short, and it's a slog for a short work, but it's a foundational text in the philosophy of science. Better yet, most actual scientists have never read it, can't discuss it, and maybe feel a bit incomplete because it's so omnipresent in the fabric of the field. It's one of those works that, still, represents a sort of "I have a classical university education" badge.
Frankly this is an excellent bit of reading for an outsider. For instance, I'm a toxicologist/epidemiologist and I come from the world of basic scientific research (e.g. historically a field that is extensively happy to conduct animal testing without an iota of shame) and also vegan for ethical reasons. People (old school scientists) loooove to try to call me out for this hypocrisy, without knowing that I've specialized in non-animal testing for the last 15 years. You'll hear this work referenced shorthand as just "Structure" or "Kuhn's 'Structure'" in conversation, as in, "well, kind of goes to show that Kuhn's 'Structure' was spot on when it pointed out how the most critical parts of any field are often the parts that perhaps unknowningly are bitterly holding on for relevance well after it's meaningful to do so."
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:12 AM on November 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions is short, and it's a slog for a short work, but it's a foundational text in the philosophy of science. Better yet, most actual scientists have never read it, can't discuss it, and maybe feel a bit incomplete because it's so omnipresent in the fabric of the field. It's one of those works that, still, represents a sort of "I have a classical university education" badge.
Frankly this is an excellent bit of reading for an outsider. For instance, I'm a toxicologist/epidemiologist and I come from the world of basic scientific research (e.g. historically a field that is extensively happy to conduct animal testing without an iota of shame) and also vegan for ethical reasons. People (old school scientists) loooove to try to call me out for this hypocrisy, without knowing that I've specialized in non-animal testing for the last 15 years. You'll hear this work referenced shorthand as just "Structure" or "Kuhn's 'Structure'" in conversation, as in, "well, kind of goes to show that Kuhn's 'Structure' was spot on when it pointed out how the most critical parts of any field are often the parts that perhaps unknowningly are bitterly holding on for relevance well after it's meaningful to do so."
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:12 AM on November 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
some classic best sellers (e.g. The Tipping Point, Sapiens)
I'd add a caveat to this particular suggestion above. These are hallmarks of pop sci and are widely put down as unable to stand up to critical scrutiny. They're good to read if only to get a sense of how seductive it is to believe nice prose that takes a posture of authority. Read them as a first step toward reading the critiques of them. Those critiques are the compelling material. Bringing up these books with praise and no critique says, "well read but gullible university freshman" or something like that.
Honestly, being aware of and familiar with any critical material related to a particular book is an excellent answer to your main question. I think some people get all the way through university (etc.) without learning that "be critical, inquire on your own" is a very good hallmark of a good and useful education.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:19 AM on November 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
I'd add a caveat to this particular suggestion above. These are hallmarks of pop sci and are widely put down as unable to stand up to critical scrutiny. They're good to read if only to get a sense of how seductive it is to believe nice prose that takes a posture of authority. Read them as a first step toward reading the critiques of them. Those critiques are the compelling material. Bringing up these books with praise and no critique says, "well read but gullible university freshman" or something like that.
Honestly, being aware of and familiar with any critical material related to a particular book is an excellent answer to your main question. I think some people get all the way through university (etc.) without learning that "be critical, inquire on your own" is a very good hallmark of a good and useful education.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:19 AM on November 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
I'd suggest the historical fiction can be enjoyed via movie adaptations. I'd far sooner watch Far From The Madding Crowd again than ever read it. And for Shakespeare, TV shows that break down the work to an understandable level are the way to go.
Definitely include some US history.
posted by SemiSalt at 4:43 AM on November 15, 2022
Definitely include some US history.
posted by SemiSalt at 4:43 AM on November 15, 2022
“How to read literature like a professor” is a great little book- I really enjoyed it! I also watched a lot of movies before I attempted to read the books (while doing my degree in literature- there were more books to read per week than my brain was capable of) and standard deviants videos are great too- maybe you can find them on YouTube. Those sound like fun ways to absorb the knowledge without feeling like she’s torturing herself. BECAUSE, so much of a well rounded education is having a full, Jack of all trades and master of none, but you know kinda what people are referring to base of knowledge…So watching the standard deviants biology video might be fun and come in handy later when you’re reading some poem or viewing a piece of art. Also… PBS documentaries.
posted by pairofshades at 4:54 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by pairofshades at 4:54 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
The unread but intelligent woman described by the OP sounds as if she's doing just fine already.
Sure, but is she aware of that too? OP claims she's self-conscious about her lack of a degree. Of course we can always speculate if OPs are just projecting, but we can never know anyway, so I just like to take them at face-value in Ask.
Still, maybe jumping to the reading lists, etc. might be a bit premature. It might be good idea for OP to check first, whether that self-consciousness is really an original problem, or if there could be something OP is doing to bring it out/make it worse, and then just stop doing that.
Personally, I can relate a bit to this particular type of self-consciousness, so I could imagine it's a real thing, unrelated to the OP. I got my secondary education from a more vocational type school, so for a little while I always felt like I hadn't read enough poetry, and when I started college, I felt like I was behind in that regard. I can see how it could make someone feel inhibited to join the conversation, and I do think that's a pity, because so much of the value you can get out of reading is about joining the conversation.
posted by sohalt at 5:17 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sure, but is she aware of that too? OP claims she's self-conscious about her lack of a degree. Of course we can always speculate if OPs are just projecting, but we can never know anyway, so I just like to take them at face-value in Ask.
Still, maybe jumping to the reading lists, etc. might be a bit premature. It might be good idea for OP to check first, whether that self-consciousness is really an original problem, or if there could be something OP is doing to bring it out/make it worse, and then just stop doing that.
Personally, I can relate a bit to this particular type of self-consciousness, so I could imagine it's a real thing, unrelated to the OP. I got my secondary education from a more vocational type school, so for a little while I always felt like I hadn't read enough poetry, and when I started college, I felt like I was behind in that regard. I can see how it could make someone feel inhibited to join the conversation, and I do think that's a pity, because so much of the value you can get out of reading is about joining the conversation.
posted by sohalt at 5:17 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've never been to college but most of my friends have, and I have no difficulty hanging with them. I haven't read most of the classics that they have - just what was covered in high school - but I read a lot. 10-15 books won't do that, it'll just give you 10-15 topics of conversation. If you really want to sound as if you've read a lot of books, you need to read a lot of books - it matters a lot less which books they are, although it's probably best to at least get out of the middle-grade section some of the time. (I'm not being facetious - there's a lot of good middle-grade stuff but the vocabulary and sentence structure isn't going to be as complicated. YA ranges very far across prose styles and you'd probably do just fine staying there, as long as you're reading widely.)
So the question isn't what 10-15 books will give her the ability to fake it, it's what 10-15 books will make her want to read 100-150 more. And that's a question she should probably be asking.
(And yeah, your question creeps me the fuck out. If this is a problem she has, give her a gift account and send her here to ask it. The actual situations she's facing and her specific insecurities deserve more than a glib reading list, and I am very far from convinced you're the right person to come anywhere near addressing them.)
posted by restless_nomad at 5:23 AM on November 15, 2022 [22 favorites]
So the question isn't what 10-15 books will give her the ability to fake it, it's what 10-15 books will make her want to read 100-150 more. And that's a question she should probably be asking.
(And yeah, your question creeps me the fuck out. If this is a problem she has, give her a gift account and send her here to ask it. The actual situations she's facing and her specific insecurities deserve more than a glib reading list, and I am very far from convinced you're the right person to come anywhere near addressing them.)
posted by restless_nomad at 5:23 AM on November 15, 2022 [22 favorites]
Good on her for making the changes she is making.
I think you're seeing comments upthread suggesting that (in sum) 10-13 books is not enough to "fake" it generically. There are perhaps other routes to ameliorating the issue of self consciousness associated with her lack of college education.
Another suggestion: suggest she try some of the most commonly assigned books in (U.S.) college. Open Culture list. Another list.
I want to echo what others have said about broad reading--or watching films & performances, going to museums and galleries, attending teach-ins or public lectures or festivals--being an answer. I've known many autodidacts, and certainly MetaFilter is full of them, and continuing education (broadly defined) seems like the real answer. Working 9-5 or more, plus dealing with kids and family, let alone abuse, does not leave the kind of space that college does, whether a student takes it or not, to absorb knowledge continuously and cumulatively. Everyone I know personally who has countered that is an inveterate consumer of books, movies, etc.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:33 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think you're seeing comments upthread suggesting that (in sum) 10-13 books is not enough to "fake" it generically. There are perhaps other routes to ameliorating the issue of self consciousness associated with her lack of college education.
Another suggestion: suggest she try some of the most commonly assigned books in (U.S.) college. Open Culture list. Another list.
I want to echo what others have said about broad reading--or watching films & performances, going to museums and galleries, attending teach-ins or public lectures or festivals--being an answer. I've known many autodidacts, and certainly MetaFilter is full of them, and continuing education (broadly defined) seems like the real answer. Working 9-5 or more, plus dealing with kids and family, let alone abuse, does not leave the kind of space that college does, whether a student takes it or not, to absorb knowledge continuously and cumulatively. Everyone I know personally who has countered that is an inveterate consumer of books, movies, etc.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:33 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
If she fakes it, she's always going to know she's faking it, and I don't see how that would help with self-consciousness. Personally, I would be really put off by someone trying to fake an education - or someone who thought that was good advice. It's not because I'm a snob about education. It's because I can't abide liars, and faking it is lying. I have a lot of friends who aren't as well read as I am, and it doesn't matter. What does bother me is when people pretend to know something they don't. Those people invariably get something wrong, and then the faking is glaringly obvious. So yeah, I think you're giving her bad advice. (If you think you're getting away with faking something, it's only because people are too polite to call you on it.)
That said, I taught college composition and literature classes for years. If she were my friend and asked for my help, I'd tell her there's no substitute for taking a class, and I'd suggest finding something that interests her at a community college or, if she doesn't have the time for that, finding a course online.
But if this is a romantic relationship, the other piece of advice I'd give her is to run from someone who thinks she should pretend to be something she's not.
posted by FencingGal at 5:33 AM on November 15, 2022 [14 favorites]
That said, I taught college composition and literature classes for years. If she were my friend and asked for my help, I'd tell her there's no substitute for taking a class, and I'd suggest finding something that interests her at a community college or, if she doesn't have the time for that, finding a course online.
But if this is a romantic relationship, the other piece of advice I'd give her is to run from someone who thinks she should pretend to be something she's not.
posted by FencingGal at 5:33 AM on November 15, 2022 [14 favorites]
Since she's already poised and personable, the thing she needs to work on is the insecurity and self-confidence, if she so chooses, but that's a conclusion she will hopefully come to on her own when she starts to see it harms her and that people who agree with it are actually undermining her.
Plenty of people who get lots of higher ed references are total morons. Elon Musk is a moron. Nobody's going to be persuaded otherwise if he belts out a Voltaire reference, and plenty of people who haven't been exposed to Voltaire are mind-blowingly smart.
This is indeed a creepy question. Even if someone asked me to pose this, I would instead be concerned about them. If you were not asked to pose this question, the assumptions behind it are toxic.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 5:34 AM on November 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Plenty of people who get lots of higher ed references are total morons. Elon Musk is a moron. Nobody's going to be persuaded otherwise if he belts out a Voltaire reference, and plenty of people who haven't been exposed to Voltaire are mind-blowingly smart.
This is indeed a creepy question. Even if someone asked me to pose this, I would instead be concerned about them. If you were not asked to pose this question, the assumptions behind it are toxic.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 5:34 AM on November 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
For my college graduation, I asked for a copy of An Incomplete Education.
And with a gift card I received at graduation, I purchased Don't Know Much About History.
I very much hope she asked you for this input.
posted by jgirl at 5:44 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
And with a gift card I received at graduation, I purchased Don't Know Much About History.
I very much hope she asked you for this input.
posted by jgirl at 5:44 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
One addition: I understand the objection that this question is creepy/Henry Higgins-y. And also, I am not a young person who has just exited an abusive relationship, child in tow, and is starting over. I do not know what she needs right now, but I do regularly talk with people in their late teens and early 20s who are trying to figure out life, and it is not easy right now. It seems harder than when I was that age. And sometimes "fake it until you make it" is absolutely the right way to go, particularly when you are responsible for your own food, lodgings, health care, etc., let alone that of a tiny person. If it turns out that a reading list isn't the answer for her, presumably she will reach that conclusion on her own, however she reacts to being given one.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:45 AM on November 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:45 AM on November 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
Meh... I've got a graduate degree and love to read across many genres, but haven't read most of what is in the posts above. My father, who only has a high school diploma, has read more of the "canon" than I have. I taught entomology labs in grad school, but my cousin (a coal miner who has taken up beekeeping) can blow me out of the water on insect knowledge. She doesn't have anything to prove to anyone. The most interesting people are the ones who are knowledgeable about what they are passionate about.
posted by hessie at 6:01 AM on November 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by hessie at 6:01 AM on November 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yeah, interesting point. I answered from the POV that the person in question had proactively asked you this question and definitely wanted the answer. If that is not the case, then consider if this is really the right thing to do.
However... I do think that there is a lot of unexamined privilege in the responses from some other commenters who think that there's something inherently sinister about not wanting to be the only one who doesn't laugh at particular jokes.
As far as faking it. Well I think that a superficial knowledge is not "faking" the level of knowledge and understanding that a generic college graduate has, that superficial knowledge actually is what most people know about literature. Is the whole thing a little absurd? Sure but a status game can be very real to the people in it even though it's ridiculous.
posted by atrazine at 6:02 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
However... I do think that there is a lot of unexamined privilege in the responses from some other commenters who think that there's something inherently sinister about not wanting to be the only one who doesn't laugh at particular jokes.
As far as faking it. Well I think that a superficial knowledge is not "faking" the level of knowledge and understanding that a generic college graduate has, that superficial knowledge actually is what most people know about literature. Is the whole thing a little absurd? Sure but a status game can be very real to the people in it even though it's ridiculous.
posted by atrazine at 6:02 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I concur that well-educated is not the exact same thing as well-read. That being said, the college that takes the (Western) literary cannon to the max is quite possibly St. John's College.
I would also put in a plug for being exposed to the literary cannon in different formats... movies, graphic novel adaptations, Cliffs Notes, audio books, etc. are different (and valid) ways of accessing the material.
I would also propose that another difference between a "liberal arts style" college education and a high school education is that there are so many more disciplines in the former than the latter. For instance, Tara Westover's Educated or Annette Lareau's Unequal Childhoods may be of personal interest to your friend in the domains of sociology/ education. (Disclaimer, I've read the former, but not the latter). I would also propose that periodicals and podcasts may be of interest as well. (Many times magazines/ newspapers are available through one's local public library).
posted by oceano at 6:09 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would also put in a plug for being exposed to the literary cannon in different formats... movies, graphic novel adaptations, Cliffs Notes, audio books, etc. are different (and valid) ways of accessing the material.
I would also propose that another difference between a "liberal arts style" college education and a high school education is that there are so many more disciplines in the former than the latter. For instance, Tara Westover's Educated or Annette Lareau's Unequal Childhoods may be of personal interest to your friend in the domains of sociology/ education. (Disclaimer, I've read the former, but not the latter). I would also propose that periodicals and podcasts may be of interest as well. (Many times magazines/ newspapers are available through one's local public library).
posted by oceano at 6:09 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Ok for everyone dunking on this as an idea: please stand down.
My dad was once in exactly this position too, as a homeless 17 year old who'd left school with no qualifications. The idea of reading your way through a 'classics' list is not exactly new among people who have been - for whatever reason - denied an education. In my dad's case, a couple of guys who were mentoring him started him on a reading list. He then met a girl doing an English Lit degree, and decided to read whatever she was reading and talk about it with her afterwards. He slogged his way through it all and it was profoundly important for his sense of self worth, as a young man with no qualifications, who'd always been told he was stupid, and who had no evidence yet that he wasn't. He still talks about this experience, 60+ years later, with pride.
If you have had a normal education you can't ever appreciate what you have, because it's just the air you breath. You can't imagine what it is like to know that there are things you're missing, but lack the tools to even figure out where to start. People need mentors to help them on the way, because it's a lot harder otherwise. There's nothing 'Henry Higgins' about that. Do we call college professors creepy for helping young people figure out what to read and how to talk about it?
rileyray3000, thanks for doing this. I would recommend not only helping her with a reading list, but offering to read alongside and talk about the books afterwards. Faking it is not as satisfying as actually reading something, and it's just as important to have someone else validate your right to have your own opinions about what you've read.
posted by EllaEm at 6:10 AM on November 15, 2022 [35 favorites]
My dad was once in exactly this position too, as a homeless 17 year old who'd left school with no qualifications. The idea of reading your way through a 'classics' list is not exactly new among people who have been - for whatever reason - denied an education. In my dad's case, a couple of guys who were mentoring him started him on a reading list. He then met a girl doing an English Lit degree, and decided to read whatever she was reading and talk about it with her afterwards. He slogged his way through it all and it was profoundly important for his sense of self worth, as a young man with no qualifications, who'd always been told he was stupid, and who had no evidence yet that he wasn't. He still talks about this experience, 60+ years later, with pride.
If you have had a normal education you can't ever appreciate what you have, because it's just the air you breath. You can't imagine what it is like to know that there are things you're missing, but lack the tools to even figure out where to start. People need mentors to help them on the way, because it's a lot harder otherwise. There's nothing 'Henry Higgins' about that. Do we call college professors creepy for helping young people figure out what to read and how to talk about it?
rileyray3000, thanks for doing this. I would recommend not only helping her with a reading list, but offering to read alongside and talk about the books afterwards. Faking it is not as satisfying as actually reading something, and it's just as important to have someone else validate your right to have your own opinions about what you've read.
posted by EllaEm at 6:10 AM on November 15, 2022 [35 favorites]
I studied at what is the best university here in the UK. I can talk (semi-) knowledgeably about my area of specialisation (literature/history) but it is a tiny, super niche field. And I would be lost in SO many intellectual circles.
I most definitely do not think reading random classics of western or eastern - or whatever - literature equals being educated. My dad hates fiction, and has NEVER read any fiction beyond what he had to at school. And yet somehow he has two masters degrees and is considered an expert in his field.
Your friend gets to decide what makes her clever and there is absolutely no need for her to fake it. She has left a shitty, abusive situation and is now ready to start a new life. I mean, wow. She's already in a great place. If she wants to read and explore world literature, then yes, most definitely feel free to suggest all the wonderful suggestions that have already been posted. But this is also her time to figure out what she wants to learn more about. Is it science? Maths? Geography? Languages?
If she is interested in literature, I'd recommend this MOOC: Masterpieces of World Literature. She'll get to study (and read) the following works and/or authors:
Goethe
The Epic of Gilgamesh
Homer, The Odyssey
The 1001 Nights
Voltaire, Candide
Orhan Pamuk, My Name is Red
Wole Soyinka, Death and the King's Horseman
Lu Xun, Diary of a Madman
Eileen Chang
Murasaki Shikibu, The Tale of Genji
Jorge Luis Borges, Ficciones
Salman Rushdie and Jhumpa Lahiri
The Lusiads
I personally don't know anyone who has studied literature at university and read all of the above. Good luck to your friend!
posted by bigyellowtaxi at 6:25 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I most definitely do not think reading random classics of western or eastern - or whatever - literature equals being educated. My dad hates fiction, and has NEVER read any fiction beyond what he had to at school. And yet somehow he has two masters degrees and is considered an expert in his field.
Your friend gets to decide what makes her clever and there is absolutely no need for her to fake it. She has left a shitty, abusive situation and is now ready to start a new life. I mean, wow. She's already in a great place. If she wants to read and explore world literature, then yes, most definitely feel free to suggest all the wonderful suggestions that have already been posted. But this is also her time to figure out what she wants to learn more about. Is it science? Maths? Geography? Languages?
If she is interested in literature, I'd recommend this MOOC: Masterpieces of World Literature. She'll get to study (and read) the following works and/or authors:
Goethe
The Epic of Gilgamesh
Homer, The Odyssey
The 1001 Nights
Voltaire, Candide
Orhan Pamuk, My Name is Red
Wole Soyinka, Death and the King's Horseman
Lu Xun, Diary of a Madman
Eileen Chang
Murasaki Shikibu, The Tale of Genji
Jorge Luis Borges, Ficciones
Salman Rushdie and Jhumpa Lahiri
The Lusiads
I personally don't know anyone who has studied literature at university and read all of the above. Good luck to your friend!
posted by bigyellowtaxi at 6:25 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
If you really want to sound as if you've read a lot of books, you need to read a lot of books.
You need to know (a bit) about a lot of books, so that you have a rough idea how certain books might relate to each other and can make organic connections, but as many people have already said, you can also get a lot of that knowledge from watching the movie, listening to a podcast, reading the review or the synopsis.
It also makes sense to read at least of couple of books really carefully, maybe even more than once, so that you can talk about them at length. There are so many different themes that could be evoked by a narrative, so many different lenses through which you could read it! Each of them opens up a new range of potential topics of conversation connected to the book.
The idea is not necessarily that you pretend you have _finished_ (or even started) all these books you're now dimly aware of - but you can still reference them now, in a somewhat contextually appropriate manner, and that's often enough to find the connection to change the topic to a book you have read, or to take the conversation to the metalevel. A lot of book talk is not about recounting specific details of specific books to each other and more about the broad sweeps.
I wouldn't even call that faking. I will always readily admit when I know a book just through cultural osmosis and have never actually read it myself. I also have no shame about having (sometimes quite strongly felt!) opinions about books I only know in this way. (Do we really need to read Atlas Shrugged to have opinions about Ayn Rand?)
That said, if you don't draw explicit attention to how you got whatever knowledge you have about any given book, I really can't see much of a problem with that either. Sure, people might often say stuff about books I love that makes me wonder whether they have actually read them. But it's just as likely that they did in fact read them a while ago and have forgotten most of it by now, or never understood it in the first place. People - obviously also people with college educations - might just have really bad reading comprehension. Or maybe just a localized blind spot with regard to certain issues. (Lord knows, I've managed to totally miss or misread stuff in books I definitely did read). All of these things are potentially unflattering, but also not something I would immediately write someone off for.
So I guess my point is, it should be fun, the stakes are not that high, but if she doesn't think it's fun, there's simply no point in trying to force it.
posted by sohalt at 6:28 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
You need to know (a bit) about a lot of books, so that you have a rough idea how certain books might relate to each other and can make organic connections, but as many people have already said, you can also get a lot of that knowledge from watching the movie, listening to a podcast, reading the review or the synopsis.
It also makes sense to read at least of couple of books really carefully, maybe even more than once, so that you can talk about them at length. There are so many different themes that could be evoked by a narrative, so many different lenses through which you could read it! Each of them opens up a new range of potential topics of conversation connected to the book.
The idea is not necessarily that you pretend you have _finished_ (or even started) all these books you're now dimly aware of - but you can still reference them now, in a somewhat contextually appropriate manner, and that's often enough to find the connection to change the topic to a book you have read, or to take the conversation to the metalevel. A lot of book talk is not about recounting specific details of specific books to each other and more about the broad sweeps.
I wouldn't even call that faking. I will always readily admit when I know a book just through cultural osmosis and have never actually read it myself. I also have no shame about having (sometimes quite strongly felt!) opinions about books I only know in this way. (Do we really need to read Atlas Shrugged to have opinions about Ayn Rand?)
That said, if you don't draw explicit attention to how you got whatever knowledge you have about any given book, I really can't see much of a problem with that either. Sure, people might often say stuff about books I love that makes me wonder whether they have actually read them. But it's just as likely that they did in fact read them a while ago and have forgotten most of it by now, or never understood it in the first place. People - obviously also people with college educations - might just have really bad reading comprehension. Or maybe just a localized blind spot with regard to certain issues. (Lord knows, I've managed to totally miss or misread stuff in books I definitely did read). All of these things are potentially unflattering, but also not something I would immediately write someone off for.
So I guess my point is, it should be fun, the stakes are not that high, but if she doesn't think it's fun, there's simply no point in trying to force it.
posted by sohalt at 6:28 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm a highly educated, prolific reader, and I agree most with restless_nomad and late afternoon dreaming hotel.
This isn't something to fake, it's something to be.
There really isn't anything special about college students that distinguishes them in conversation. Naturally curious, critical thinkers who go to college will learn whatever is in their degree, sure - but the majority of what they will learn and talk about for the rest of their lives will be learned outside of college.
Most of my friends have been to graduate school, and many have PhDs. I can't really tell them apart from the friends who haven't been to college unless we talk about their specialist subject or experiences. There is probably no single book we have in common, no common core of knowledge beyond the basics.
Be a naturally curious, critical thinker. It's not enough to read 10-15 books, you need to enjoy reading books. It's not enough to read 150 books, you need to think about those books critically, both fiction and non-fiction. A liberal arts education is supposed to help you develop the last part, but it's far from necessary and many college students never really get it.
Read non-fiction, but beware of pop sci/history. Look for books that are generally well-regarded by experts in the field. Not knowing the flaws in a heavily criticized pop sci/history book is one thing that will give you away as not educated in that field. (Asking specialist forums is a good way to get an idea.)
Also, anyone who judges her for not going to college is also giving themselves away. Most academics I know are critical of the college experience itself. Not thinking that it's valueless, exactly, but that it's flawed, and that it's not something everyone needs. We all know you can be damn smart and knowledgeable without going to college.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:30 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
This isn't something to fake, it's something to be.
There really isn't anything special about college students that distinguishes them in conversation. Naturally curious, critical thinkers who go to college will learn whatever is in their degree, sure - but the majority of what they will learn and talk about for the rest of their lives will be learned outside of college.
Most of my friends have been to graduate school, and many have PhDs. I can't really tell them apart from the friends who haven't been to college unless we talk about their specialist subject or experiences. There is probably no single book we have in common, no common core of knowledge beyond the basics.
Be a naturally curious, critical thinker. It's not enough to read 10-15 books, you need to enjoy reading books. It's not enough to read 150 books, you need to think about those books critically, both fiction and non-fiction. A liberal arts education is supposed to help you develop the last part, but it's far from necessary and many college students never really get it.
Read non-fiction, but beware of pop sci/history. Look for books that are generally well-regarded by experts in the field. Not knowing the flaws in a heavily criticized pop sci/history book is one thing that will give you away as not educated in that field. (Asking specialist forums is a good way to get an idea.)
Also, anyone who judges her for not going to college is also giving themselves away. Most academics I know are critical of the college experience itself. Not thinking that it's valueless, exactly, but that it's flawed, and that it's not something everyone needs. We all know you can be damn smart and knowledgeable without going to college.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:30 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think if she wants to give off the air of being educated, it doesn't matter (much) what books she reads, but 10-15 won't be enough. The tell that marks people as more or less educated is less about their specific knowledge and more about the way they speak and write. Vocabulary, grammar, correct word usage. Using a broad vocabulary effortlessly and without usage errors*. Having a broad vocabulary does not mean using "big words". A person who uses big words a lot just comes off like they're trying to sound smart, which seems more like being insecure about the impression one gives than about education.
*Note, every single person on the planet (who writes English) will mess up your/you're at some point. I'm not talking about that -- though of course messing up the kind of thing frequently/consistently will mark a person as less educated. I'm talking about things like mixing up things like "infer" and "imply". I'm reluctant to list a bunch of examples, because I will come off like a snob and because even the most educated person will get SOMETHING wrong sometimes, but it's about whether one can effortlessly get it right 95% of the time. And look, the linguists can go on and one about how prescriptivism is wrong, but the fact is that getting the prescriptivist rules right is a mark of cultural capital, whether you (or the linguists) like it or not.
So back to the book question: what do you read to get an effortlessly broad vocabulary and strong grammar and usage skills? Everything. Everything you can get your hands on that will have been professionally edited (Not listicles on Facebook or entertainment articles, which you should read if you want an example of the kind of writing that makes me think a person is uneducated. Read. Read. Read. She should read whatever fiction she finds interesting and engaging and whatever non-fiction draws her interest. The vocabulary and grammar comes by osmosis from a lifetime of that. She's starting later than some people get to start, but she still has a lifetime ahead of her.
[I am certain I have made grammatical and usage errors in this post. That is the law of the internet.]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:42 AM on November 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
*Note, every single person on the planet (who writes English) will mess up your/you're at some point. I'm not talking about that -- though of course messing up the kind of thing frequently/consistently will mark a person as less educated. I'm talking about things like mixing up things like "infer" and "imply". I'm reluctant to list a bunch of examples, because I will come off like a snob and because even the most educated person will get SOMETHING wrong sometimes, but it's about whether one can effortlessly get it right 95% of the time. And look, the linguists can go on and one about how prescriptivism is wrong, but the fact is that getting the prescriptivist rules right is a mark of cultural capital, whether you (or the linguists) like it or not.
So back to the book question: what do you read to get an effortlessly broad vocabulary and strong grammar and usage skills? Everything. Everything you can get your hands on that will have been professionally edited (Not listicles on Facebook or entertainment articles, which you should read if you want an example of the kind of writing that makes me think a person is uneducated. Read. Read. Read. She should read whatever fiction she finds interesting and engaging and whatever non-fiction draws her interest. The vocabulary and grammar comes by osmosis from a lifetime of that. She's starting later than some people get to start, but she still has a lifetime ahead of her.
[I am certain I have made grammatical and usage errors in this post. That is the law of the internet.]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:42 AM on November 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
I went to St. John's college for a year, and completed two degrees in classics (Greek/Roman). I tell you that so you can take into account that I might just be jaded about this sort of thing. But as time goes on, I am finding lots of people to be better read and more cultured than I am, and most of them didn't have a traditional, canonical education. A studio artist, for example, who reads a lot of Japanese literature. Or a dentist who is passionate about literature in translation. Some of these people impress just by the range of stuff they have read, and and some have dazzling insights that they can readily express.
Which brings me to a point that may or may not matter to your friend. There are books, and then there are things you can say about books. Yes, mostly it's about actual reading, and having real curiosity about what you read, but there's sort of a rhetoric you can learn to sound sophisticated. A lot of people now use Twitter for this latter piece but I think it's better to read actual journalism, and not just book journalism. I've been through periods of reading the NYT, the LAT and even the Wall Street Journal regularly. You just don't want to overdo adopting journalistic rhetoric; it'll make you sound phony.
posted by BibiRose at 6:44 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Which brings me to a point that may or may not matter to your friend. There are books, and then there are things you can say about books. Yes, mostly it's about actual reading, and having real curiosity about what you read, but there's sort of a rhetoric you can learn to sound sophisticated. A lot of people now use Twitter for this latter piece but I think it's better to read actual journalism, and not just book journalism. I've been through periods of reading the NYT, the LAT and even the Wall Street Journal regularly. You just don't want to overdo adopting journalistic rhetoric; it'll make you sound phony.
posted by BibiRose at 6:44 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Honestly, most people forget most of what they learned in college very quickly. I went to a small liberal arts college and majored in English and Poli Sci, these are my suggestions for fitting in with a fancier crowd.
One path is for her to go deep on a particular interest, like philosophy or 18th century novels or CRISPR technology. This thing will inevitably tie into the rest of the canon as she learns more. She’ll also be able to have a subject where she will generally be the expert and be able to demonstrate her curiosity / economic ability to fritter away time on knowledge that isn’t directly useful to her.
Another option is just to read the New Yorker. Lots of allusions, somewhat affected style, mix of fiction and poetry and news, usually features up and coming writers and knowing about them will show she’s engaged. Harper’s might be another option, but the New Yorker has a huge amount of content and you can usually get a free trial subscription.
The other thing is to explicitly show that curiosity in conversation. “Oh, we didn’t read that in school, tell me about it.” People love being the expert, and if she pays attention, they’ll fill in the gaps for her and she’ll be able to offer other ideas that relate to that.
I’ve read that there is a critical period for learning to love reading, so if it’s hard and she hates it, that might not change and listening to audiobooks and podcasts is perfectly fine.
posted by momus_window at 6:44 AM on November 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
One path is for her to go deep on a particular interest, like philosophy or 18th century novels or CRISPR technology. This thing will inevitably tie into the rest of the canon as she learns more. She’ll also be able to have a subject where she will generally be the expert and be able to demonstrate her curiosity / economic ability to fritter away time on knowledge that isn’t directly useful to her.
Another option is just to read the New Yorker. Lots of allusions, somewhat affected style, mix of fiction and poetry and news, usually features up and coming writers and knowing about them will show she’s engaged. Harper’s might be another option, but the New Yorker has a huge amount of content and you can usually get a free trial subscription.
The other thing is to explicitly show that curiosity in conversation. “Oh, we didn’t read that in school, tell me about it.” People love being the expert, and if she pays attention, they’ll fill in the gaps for her and she’ll be able to offer other ideas that relate to that.
I’ve read that there is a critical period for learning to love reading, so if it’s hard and she hates it, that might not change and listening to audiobooks and podcasts is perfectly fine.
posted by momus_window at 6:44 AM on November 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also a lot of what people read as "educated" is just class and race signaling. Reading books is a deeply imperfect way to figure out how to code-switch in the way she wants to, and the code-switching she might want to do is *deeply* specific and contextual.
posted by restless_nomad at 6:55 AM on November 15, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 6:55 AM on November 15, 2022 [21 favorites]
In my experience, people don't spend a lot of time talking about the books they were required to read in college. Remember that most people who went to college did not go to highly selective schools with high standards, paid only as much attention as they had to in order to pass, and have forgotten much of what they learned.
Assuming she actually wants a reading list, I think she should skip the books that were assigned in college and read the kinds of books college-educated people are choosing to read on their own now. Those are the books they'll be talking about. Those books can also show her where some of the gaps in her knowledge are. Anything the author assumes the reader will understand is probably something many college-educated people would understand. (But I guarantee you many will not understand it any better than she does.) If there's a reference to Darwin or Napoleon or Hiroshima and she doesn't get what's being referred to, she can do some quick googling and get the gist. If she does that consistently, ideally following up with deeper reading on things that seem interesting, she can end up pretty well educated.
Popular books like The Tipping Point are perfect for this. She could start with a list of best-selling non-fiction books from the last 10 or 20 years, maybe cross-checking with lists of "best" books to see which ones were not only popular but also well-regarded by critics. Or she could just go to the new books section of the library and pick up anything that looks interesting. She should probably read some fiction, too. A good source for the kinds of books she should look for would be Oprah's Book Club List.
posted by Redstart at 7:01 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Assuming she actually wants a reading list, I think she should skip the books that were assigned in college and read the kinds of books college-educated people are choosing to read on their own now. Those are the books they'll be talking about. Those books can also show her where some of the gaps in her knowledge are. Anything the author assumes the reader will understand is probably something many college-educated people would understand. (But I guarantee you many will not understand it any better than she does.) If there's a reference to Darwin or Napoleon or Hiroshima and she doesn't get what's being referred to, she can do some quick googling and get the gist. If she does that consistently, ideally following up with deeper reading on things that seem interesting, she can end up pretty well educated.
Popular books like The Tipping Point are perfect for this. She could start with a list of best-selling non-fiction books from the last 10 or 20 years, maybe cross-checking with lists of "best" books to see which ones were not only popular but also well-regarded by critics. Or she could just go to the new books section of the library and pick up anything that looks interesting. She should probably read some fiction, too. A good source for the kinds of books she should look for would be Oprah's Book Club List.
posted by Redstart at 7:01 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's one thing if she asked for this, and another if she just said that she felt insecure and *you* suggested this so she can "fake it," implying that people are right to think less of her for not having a college education. I know plenty of well-read people who didn't go to college. I don't think she should be ashamed or try to hide her background. But to answer the question of how to fake it, I think it would be most useful to read a magazine like the Atlantic or the New Yorker. A book about how to think critically would also be helpful. Last, this site shows the most commonly assigned reading at universities, and you can sort by school, subject, etc.
posted by pinochiette at 7:10 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by pinochiette at 7:10 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Well, number one is probably Pygmalion.
That's of course a joke, but also not. It's a good play by a good writer that both alludes to classical mythology and explores issues of class. There are worse places to start.
I don't really think the idea of reading a canon, western or otherwise, is a good one. It's just not the experience that most people in college have. Even me, I read Tolstoy for fun, but I didn't in college. I read what I was assigned, and unless you're majoring in Comparative Literature, a lot of what you're assigned is going to be stuff other than classic literary fiction. Hell, most people in college don't even read what they're assigned. I went to a large state university, and I bet I know people who didn't read a single book as an undergraduate. If you want her to replicate the college experience for the majority of students, buy a copy of Marketing for Dummies and a case of Natural Light.
That said, I appreciate the question, and the mere fact that she's interested in reading anything will put her ahead of most college graduates. What I would suggest, instead of a canon, is something more focused on methodology. Not so much on specific details, but on bigger-picture approaches to subjects that will help her find more information if she chooses to dig deeper.
The first thing I'd suggest is Elements of Style by Strunk and White. There's a lot to dislike about the book, but the reality is that almost every college student takes a composition class, and almost every composition teacher assigns Strunk and White. It's part of the shared cultural experience. And like, if she's never had any real writing instruction, it would probably be at least somewhat helpful. It's also quite short and easy to read.
In addition to writing, I'd suggest some fluency in statistics. The Cartoon Guide to Statistics was often recommended by professors in upper-level classes when I was in school to people who needed remedial statistical instruction. Again, quite easy to pick up.
The socratic method is one of the more important concepts in a liberal education, and you might as well go to the source. Plato's dialogues are usually short, often accessible, and sometimes quite engaging. Crito is the most famous; I read Meno when I was in college myself and it might be interesting in a meta-sense here.
I think a basic familiarity with the Hegelian dialectic (thesis, antithesis, synthesis) is helpful, but I would absolutely not recommend reading Hegel. Wikipedia is probably fine here.
I find it hard to really engage with a lot of intelligent discussion without some familiarity with a few ideological frameworks. Marxism, most obviously, but also feminism, postcolonialism, etc. Again, a brief Wikipedia summary is probably sufficient. You can really get in the weeds with some of this stuff, and for a basic understanding, that's not necessary. Just be able to explain what Marxism/feminism/postcolonialism in a sentence or two and you'll be OK.
From there, I'd suggest some subject-specific methodology. As a history major, I was assigned E.H. Carr's What Is History? Not authoritative by any means, but gives you an idea of what historiography is, and you can go off on your own later.
For basic science literacy, there was a book maybe fifteen years ago by a NYT science writer named Natalie Angier called The Canon, which aimed to explain the most basic, foundational scientific concepts to people who didn't pay attention in school.
Most of the so-called "Western Canon" in English can be traced to one of three sources: the Bible, classical mythology, and Shakespeare. If your friend familiarizes herself with those three subjects, a lot of other highbrow stuff will come a lot easier down the road. For mythology, the standard is Edith Hamilton's Mythology. I was actually assigned it in high school, so it's not particularly difficult. In the Bible, concentrate on Genesis and the Gospels, maybe Acts and Kings if she has time and wants to go further. Beyond that, a children's Bible will have high-level summaries of most biblical scenes like Daniel in the lion's den and stuff like that. For Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet are probably the two most culturally relevant, in terms of being able to understand the allusions in popular culture (e.g. Lion King for the latter, and Lion King 2: Simba's Pride for the former). Personally, I think Macbeth and King Lear are better, but not as well-known. Macbeth is super short. And she doesn't have to *read* any of them. If you have a Shakespeare in the Park or a high school theatre program near you, take her to see them live. And if not, watch the movies - both the faithful Kenneth Branagh type stuff and more modern adaptations like the Leo/Claire Danes R&J.
While we're watching movies, I'll suggest Whit Stillman's Metropolitan, which, in addition to just being a hilarious movie in general, is the only movie I can think of that actually incorporates literary criticism into the plot. It works in the movie, but it's also highly artificial, and I'm recommending it primarily to demonstrate how even people who have studied literature in depth don't actually talk about it like this.
That last point is getting at the most important thing about education, in my opinion, and the thing that makes it easy to pick out autodidacts: the ability to think critically about whatever you're reading or watching or otherwise taking in, to not just accept your source as an authority and believing what the source says. A lot of times with autodidacts, they'll come across something, whether it's Ayn Rand or Howard Zinn or Jordan Peterson, that seems to make sense to them and then just adopt that belief system like it's a religion instead of granting certain points but pointing out that others may be a bit of a stretch. There really aren't many ideas that are 100% true - even absolutist religions have theological disputes. So being able to critically interrogate an idea is probably the single most valuable thing you can learn, whether in college or at the School of Hard Knocks.
Finally, allow me to suggest one additional movie, PCU. I'll grant that it's not the greatest movie ever made, but it's set on a college campus and really goes into the milieu of college life: activism from both the right and the left, reactionary responses thereto, academic office politics, ultimate frisbee, etc. But moreover, to my point in the previous paragraph, it's a movie that practically begs you to question it, one way or the other. It's hard to just sit there and watch without either agreeing or disagreeing vehemently. It forces you to form an opinion, which you can then refine using the rest of the materials I've suggested.
So that's seven books, two short essays, 2-4 plays, at least two movies, and a half dozen or so Wikipedia articles. Get through that syllabus, and she'll be one of the better-educated people you'll know.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:13 AM on November 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
That's of course a joke, but also not. It's a good play by a good writer that both alludes to classical mythology and explores issues of class. There are worse places to start.
I don't really think the idea of reading a canon, western or otherwise, is a good one. It's just not the experience that most people in college have. Even me, I read Tolstoy for fun, but I didn't in college. I read what I was assigned, and unless you're majoring in Comparative Literature, a lot of what you're assigned is going to be stuff other than classic literary fiction. Hell, most people in college don't even read what they're assigned. I went to a large state university, and I bet I know people who didn't read a single book as an undergraduate. If you want her to replicate the college experience for the majority of students, buy a copy of Marketing for Dummies and a case of Natural Light.
That said, I appreciate the question, and the mere fact that she's interested in reading anything will put her ahead of most college graduates. What I would suggest, instead of a canon, is something more focused on methodology. Not so much on specific details, but on bigger-picture approaches to subjects that will help her find more information if she chooses to dig deeper.
The first thing I'd suggest is Elements of Style by Strunk and White. There's a lot to dislike about the book, but the reality is that almost every college student takes a composition class, and almost every composition teacher assigns Strunk and White. It's part of the shared cultural experience. And like, if she's never had any real writing instruction, it would probably be at least somewhat helpful. It's also quite short and easy to read.
In addition to writing, I'd suggest some fluency in statistics. The Cartoon Guide to Statistics was often recommended by professors in upper-level classes when I was in school to people who needed remedial statistical instruction. Again, quite easy to pick up.
The socratic method is one of the more important concepts in a liberal education, and you might as well go to the source. Plato's dialogues are usually short, often accessible, and sometimes quite engaging. Crito is the most famous; I read Meno when I was in college myself and it might be interesting in a meta-sense here.
I think a basic familiarity with the Hegelian dialectic (thesis, antithesis, synthesis) is helpful, but I would absolutely not recommend reading Hegel. Wikipedia is probably fine here.
I find it hard to really engage with a lot of intelligent discussion without some familiarity with a few ideological frameworks. Marxism, most obviously, but also feminism, postcolonialism, etc. Again, a brief Wikipedia summary is probably sufficient. You can really get in the weeds with some of this stuff, and for a basic understanding, that's not necessary. Just be able to explain what Marxism/feminism/postcolonialism in a sentence or two and you'll be OK.
From there, I'd suggest some subject-specific methodology. As a history major, I was assigned E.H. Carr's What Is History? Not authoritative by any means, but gives you an idea of what historiography is, and you can go off on your own later.
For basic science literacy, there was a book maybe fifteen years ago by a NYT science writer named Natalie Angier called The Canon, which aimed to explain the most basic, foundational scientific concepts to people who didn't pay attention in school.
Most of the so-called "Western Canon" in English can be traced to one of three sources: the Bible, classical mythology, and Shakespeare. If your friend familiarizes herself with those three subjects, a lot of other highbrow stuff will come a lot easier down the road. For mythology, the standard is Edith Hamilton's Mythology. I was actually assigned it in high school, so it's not particularly difficult. In the Bible, concentrate on Genesis and the Gospels, maybe Acts and Kings if she has time and wants to go further. Beyond that, a children's Bible will have high-level summaries of most biblical scenes like Daniel in the lion's den and stuff like that. For Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet are probably the two most culturally relevant, in terms of being able to understand the allusions in popular culture (e.g. Lion King for the latter, and Lion King 2: Simba's Pride for the former). Personally, I think Macbeth and King Lear are better, but not as well-known. Macbeth is super short. And she doesn't have to *read* any of them. If you have a Shakespeare in the Park or a high school theatre program near you, take her to see them live. And if not, watch the movies - both the faithful Kenneth Branagh type stuff and more modern adaptations like the Leo/Claire Danes R&J.
While we're watching movies, I'll suggest Whit Stillman's Metropolitan, which, in addition to just being a hilarious movie in general, is the only movie I can think of that actually incorporates literary criticism into the plot. It works in the movie, but it's also highly artificial, and I'm recommending it primarily to demonstrate how even people who have studied literature in depth don't actually talk about it like this.
That last point is getting at the most important thing about education, in my opinion, and the thing that makes it easy to pick out autodidacts: the ability to think critically about whatever you're reading or watching or otherwise taking in, to not just accept your source as an authority and believing what the source says. A lot of times with autodidacts, they'll come across something, whether it's Ayn Rand or Howard Zinn or Jordan Peterson, that seems to make sense to them and then just adopt that belief system like it's a religion instead of granting certain points but pointing out that others may be a bit of a stretch. There really aren't many ideas that are 100% true - even absolutist religions have theological disputes. So being able to critically interrogate an idea is probably the single most valuable thing you can learn, whether in college or at the School of Hard Knocks.
Finally, allow me to suggest one additional movie, PCU. I'll grant that it's not the greatest movie ever made, but it's set on a college campus and really goes into the milieu of college life: activism from both the right and the left, reactionary responses thereto, academic office politics, ultimate frisbee, etc. But moreover, to my point in the previous paragraph, it's a movie that practically begs you to question it, one way or the other. It's hard to just sit there and watch without either agreeing or disagreeing vehemently. It forces you to form an opinion, which you can then refine using the rest of the materials I've suggested.
So that's seven books, two short essays, 2-4 plays, at least two movies, and a half dozen or so Wikipedia articles. Get through that syllabus, and she'll be one of the better-educated people you'll know.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:13 AM on November 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
I am by any reasonable measure wildly overeducated - I have a PhD in literature — and for pure bang-for-your-buck, know-what-people-are-talking-about-at-parties knowledge, NOTHING beats An Incomplete Education, which someone linked to, above. My parents had a copy on the bookshelf of my house growing up, and I reference the knowledge I gained from it more than I do my actual college education. It’s also GREAT for someone in your friend’s situation, because it operates from the assumption that people are getting so flustered by debating right now: that 90% of a college education is just learning a bunch of references that you can use to signal to other people that you, too, went to college.
If she tries to work her way through some Great Books course on her own, she’s gonna end up ten times more anxious, because a lot of those books are impenetrable without the kind of context and hand-holding you get from college. But if she reads an Incomplete Education, she’ll get that 90% surface knowledge right away, and then she’ll have the framework she needs to launch on the other 10%, which is to delve deeper into whatever the hell interests her.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 7:28 AM on November 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
If she tries to work her way through some Great Books course on her own, she’s gonna end up ten times more anxious, because a lot of those books are impenetrable without the kind of context and hand-holding you get from college. But if she reads an Incomplete Education, she’ll get that 90% surface knowledge right away, and then she’ll have the framework she needs to launch on the other 10%, which is to delve deeper into whatever the hell interests her.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 7:28 AM on November 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Did she finish high school? Because that's where most people in the US get exposed to the classics of literature. In college I learned things like the structure of amino acids (and how to binge drink). My suggestion is that rather than a reading list, she should seek out the type of intellectual engagement that might compensate a bit for not going to college. Join a book club at a library! Maybe take a course at an adult education center or community college in a subject that interests her. Or attend free public lectures. These activities will build growth, social circles, etc much more that reading a bunch of books a new boyfriend suggests.
posted by emd3737 at 7:34 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 7:34 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
If she listens to audiobooks, have her listen to Stephen Fry's recent readings of his own books Mythos, Heroes and Troy and she'll get the European classical background stuff in an interesting and entertaining (but not dumbed-down) style.
If she doesn't find the idea condescending, Larry Gonick's Cartoon History of the Universe and Cartoon History of the Modern World books are densely packed with information and equally entertaining while not dumbed-down.
Together those would give anyone a mental framework to hang a lot of our culture on.
posted by zadcat at 7:48 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
If she doesn't find the idea condescending, Larry Gonick's Cartoon History of the Universe and Cartoon History of the Modern World books are densely packed with information and equally entertaining while not dumbed-down.
Together those would give anyone a mental framework to hang a lot of our culture on.
posted by zadcat at 7:48 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
She might look to the local library to see if they host book clubs. Every town I've lived in has had several, ranging from the "classics" to contemporary fiction to sci-fi or non-fiction. These are open to everyone and attract a broad array of people, from retirees to students at the local community college to factory workers to immigrants who want to improve their language skills. (My current library even has one dedicated to moms.)
These can be a great way to expose you to a variety of books but also get you comfortable with discussing books and reading them through a different lens. I joined one 10 years ago for 20-30somethings and we're still meeting monthly, reading a wide variety of stuff that reflects our vast interests. Plus, we've become friends.
posted by writermcwriterson at 7:49 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
These can be a great way to expose you to a variety of books but also get you comfortable with discussing books and reading them through a different lens. I joined one 10 years ago for 20-30somethings and we're still meeting monthly, reading a wide variety of stuff that reflects our vast interests. Plus, we've become friends.
posted by writermcwriterson at 7:49 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I too found this question problematic. First, she is presumably an adult—why are you calling her a girl?
I said she can fake it if she just reads enough and retains it
I don’t think this is very helpful advice. Does she even enjoy reading? Does she have time to devote to this endeavor?
And I’m not clear what you mean by faking it. Pretending to understand a Boo Radley Joke? You say she's doing fine......is she lacking in basic knowledge or skills?
I don’t think 10-15 books is going to make her self-confidence soar and allow her to feel comfortable in whatever the situation is. (But lots of great suggestions in this thread!) She’s a single mother and a survivor of domestic abuse, which I see as more of a hurdle to fitting in than not having a college degree.
That said, if she is interested in reading, and has not ever been much of a reader, I'd start with short stories and maybe memoirs rather than jumping into a great books list. She might be interested in books about motherhood, for example. I'd do a library or thrift store, because a purchased book comes with pressure! With the library you can always return it and try again later.
And I’m all for people reading, but I think, as a friend, you also want to help this person with their self-confidence. She shouldn't feel embarrassed about her life.
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 7:50 AM on November 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I said she can fake it if she just reads enough and retains it
I don’t think this is very helpful advice. Does she even enjoy reading? Does she have time to devote to this endeavor?
And I’m not clear what you mean by faking it. Pretending to understand a Boo Radley Joke? You say she's doing fine......is she lacking in basic knowledge or skills?
I don’t think 10-15 books is going to make her self-confidence soar and allow her to feel comfortable in whatever the situation is. (But lots of great suggestions in this thread!) She’s a single mother and a survivor of domestic abuse, which I see as more of a hurdle to fitting in than not having a college degree.
That said, if she is interested in reading, and has not ever been much of a reader, I'd start with short stories and maybe memoirs rather than jumping into a great books list. She might be interested in books about motherhood, for example. I'd do a library or thrift store, because a purchased book comes with pressure! With the library you can always return it and try again later.
And I’m all for people reading, but I think, as a friend, you also want to help this person with their self-confidence. She shouldn't feel embarrassed about her life.
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 7:50 AM on November 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Taking your question at face value and with a focus on fiction, I think college helped give me a better understanding of the types of stories and characters that pop up time and again because they say something about the human condition. To that end, reading and understanding some Shakespeare and Greek mythology would help. (I read Julius Caesar and Romeo and Juliet in high school but I’m thinking MacBeth, Hamlet, A Midsummer Night’s Dream, King Lear) (I can’t recommend a specific book re: Greek mythology but I was recently reading my kid a book of Greek myths and thought, OHHHH that’s the Hunger Games).
Note that these recommendations are intended just to help someone sound like they went to college so in conversation you can do things like compare the former president to Lear or discuss the similarities between The Lion King and Hamlet.
Also, I don’t advise reading it cover to cover necessarily but the Bible is interesting for both the stories and historical context. I went to Catholic school so while I never took a class on the Bible specifically, I internalized enough of it. I hesitate to mention it here because it’s not something I learned in college but I think it has been valuable to know.
That said, if she wants to try to pass as someone who went to college, right on , but she sounds cool as hell and certainly doesn’t need the approval if anyone who would hold it against her that she didn’t go to college. If a friend in a similar situation told me she was self conscious about not having gone to college, I’d tell her that I empathize and frequently felt self conscious about similar things, especially at her age, but the older one gets and the more time that passes since their graduation date, the less it matters. And if she ever decides it’s really important to her to earn a college degree, she can figure out how to make it work.
posted by kat518 at 7:51 AM on November 15, 2022
Note that these recommendations are intended just to help someone sound like they went to college so in conversation you can do things like compare the former president to Lear or discuss the similarities between The Lion King and Hamlet.
Also, I don’t advise reading it cover to cover necessarily but the Bible is interesting for both the stories and historical context. I went to Catholic school so while I never took a class on the Bible specifically, I internalized enough of it. I hesitate to mention it here because it’s not something I learned in college but I think it has been valuable to know.
That said, if she wants to try to pass as someone who went to college, right on , but she sounds cool as hell and certainly doesn’t need the approval if anyone who would hold it against her that she didn’t go to college. If a friend in a similar situation told me she was self conscious about not having gone to college, I’d tell her that I empathize and frequently felt self conscious about similar things, especially at her age, but the older one gets and the more time that passes since their graduation date, the less it matters. And if she ever decides it’s really important to her to earn a college degree, she can figure out how to make it work.
posted by kat518 at 7:51 AM on November 15, 2022
Best answer: Other commenters have done an excellent job describing everything that's wrong with this plan (and it seems like a lot). I'm probably stronger on book-recommending than I am flawed-idea-criticizing, so I'm instead going to pick 10-15 books that, upon reading, will make someone better prepared to communicate like someone who got an American liberal arts degree in the last ten years or so:
All About Love: New Visions, bell hooks
Dead White Men and Other Important People, Angus Bancroft
The Elements of Style, William Strunk, Jr. and E.B. White
How to Read and Why, Harold Bloom
An Incomplete Education, Judy Jones and William Wilson
The New Jim Crow, Michelle Alexander
On Writing Well, William Zinsser
A People's History of the United States, Howard Zinn
So You Want to Talk About Race, Ijeoma Oluo
Stamped from the Beginning, Ibram X. Kendi
We Should All Be Feminists, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
The White Man's Guide to White Male Writers of the Western Canon, Dana Schwartz
That's twelve, but we need to get to 15. Now pick out one book from DK's 'Big Ideas Simply Explained' series, one from Oxford UP's 'Very Short Introductions' series, and one 'For Beginners' documentary comic book.
This list leaves some holes (art and music history, religion, world lit, math and science...), but so do most college educations.
posted by box at 7:52 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
All About Love: New Visions, bell hooks
Dead White Men and Other Important People, Angus Bancroft
The Elements of Style, William Strunk, Jr. and E.B. White
How to Read and Why, Harold Bloom
An Incomplete Education, Judy Jones and William Wilson
The New Jim Crow, Michelle Alexander
On Writing Well, William Zinsser
A People's History of the United States, Howard Zinn
So You Want to Talk About Race, Ijeoma Oluo
Stamped from the Beginning, Ibram X. Kendi
We Should All Be Feminists, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
The White Man's Guide to White Male Writers of the Western Canon, Dana Schwartz
That's twelve, but we need to get to 15. Now pick out one book from DK's 'Big Ideas Simply Explained' series, one from Oxford UP's 'Very Short Introductions' series, and one 'For Beginners' documentary comic book.
This list leaves some holes (art and music history, religion, world lit, math and science...), but so do most college educations.
posted by box at 7:52 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think it is important for her to culture information about what INTERESTS her not necessarily what others would consider appropriate or expected of someone who went to college.
Personally, I think someone comes across as having a college education if they are 1) curious, 2) willing to question their own assumptions and those of others, and 3) able to think critically. The last one is probably what college and law school taught me. So maybe reading into the Socratic Method can be a good start?
posted by tafetta, darling! at 8:00 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Personally, I think someone comes across as having a college education if they are 1) curious, 2) willing to question their own assumptions and those of others, and 3) able to think critically. The last one is probably what college and law school taught me. So maybe reading into the Socratic Method can be a good start?
posted by tafetta, darling! at 8:00 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I would go the textbook non fiction route and suggest for example an undergraduate 101 level textbook on developmental psychology.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:36 AM on November 15, 2022
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:36 AM on November 15, 2022
This is as good a place as any to plug Burn Math Class by Jason Wilkes. If your friend specifically wants to know some college-level math that she otherwise possibly missed out on, this book is a good Socratic-method-style attempt at approaching calculus starting only from elementary math principles. I read it myself after taking calc classes, so I can't evaluate if I would have understood it if I hadn't. But Wilkes' idea is that understanding calculus his way is actually a prerequisite for topics like precalculus and trigonometry.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:42 AM on November 15, 2022
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:42 AM on November 15, 2022
I work at a community college. We LOVE students like your friend and we will do a lot to make their college experience wonderful. Right now, community colleges are struggling and as a result, there's tons of financial aid out there. I'm not talking loans either: out and out grant money that she won't have to pay back. We have classes that are specifically designed for students who are re-entering formal education and they are free. We have classes that combine getting your GED with starting college level freshman classes, and they are also free. If she is self conscious about not going to college, than I suggest going to college. Assuming you are in the US (I can't speak for other countries) a college education is more accessible right now than it has been for years.
posted by mygothlaundry at 9:25 AM on November 15, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by mygothlaundry at 9:25 AM on November 15, 2022 [25 favorites]
Those of you who don't know what it's like to have to fake knowledge you don't have, or why it sometimes feels very necessary, are lucky indeed. That said, there's a big difference between supporting someone in doing something they already want to do and deciding what they should do, complete with giving them reading assignments. I would ask OP to consider which OP is doing.
A book like An Incomplete Education will probably give her the desired ease with cultural references, at least among college-educated white Americans. What I mostly came here to say, though, was that, as she works through a book like that, if she sees anything that catches her eye--that seems weird or interesting, or, perhaps ideally, interestingly weird--she not be afraid to jump off the framework and dive right in. That's how you become truly educated: cultivating and pursuing your own intellectual interests.
posted by praemunire at 9:34 AM on November 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
A book like An Incomplete Education will probably give her the desired ease with cultural references, at least among college-educated white Americans. What I mostly came here to say, though, was that, as she works through a book like that, if she sees anything that catches her eye--that seems weird or interesting, or, perhaps ideally, interestingly weird--she not be afraid to jump off the framework and dive right in. That's how you become truly educated: cultivating and pursuing your own intellectual interests.
posted by praemunire at 9:34 AM on November 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
Library, library, library! Learning is one of the things libraries are FOR. L-i-b-r-a-r-y.
Connecting your friend with the local public library will be useful for books and more. Storytimes and other enrichment for the kid? You betcha. Connecting with other community groups and supports? Sure. Nonjudgmental, expert ears at the reference desk for whatever questions your friend wants books or other materials to answer? Absolutely. Ebooks to read in whatever spare moments your friend can find? Not certain, but quite likely.
Please take your friend to the library, make sure she gets a card, and let her follow her nose through the stacks and the ebook listings (via her phone or laptop).
posted by humbug at 9:37 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Connecting your friend with the local public library will be useful for books and more. Storytimes and other enrichment for the kid? You betcha. Connecting with other community groups and supports? Sure. Nonjudgmental, expert ears at the reference desk for whatever questions your friend wants books or other materials to answer? Absolutely. Ebooks to read in whatever spare moments your friend can find? Not certain, but quite likely.
Please take your friend to the library, make sure she gets a card, and let her follow her nose through the stacks and the ebook listings (via her phone or laptop).
posted by humbug at 9:37 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think my parents filled in some of their (educated, but slightly non mainstream) gaps by reading or watching things with me when I was little. Even something as simple as a Bugs Bunny musical cartoon followed by dancing around to the symphony it used is two kinds of cultural knowledge, plus also reasonably fun.
I am wildly curious what she would think of this thread! Not least because anyone who got herself out of a terrible relationship knows some things about people.
posted by clew at 9:59 AM on November 15, 2022
I am wildly curious what she would think of this thread! Not least because anyone who got herself out of a terrible relationship knows some things about people.
posted by clew at 9:59 AM on November 15, 2022
Response by poster: Wow this was a ride. What I'll say I just met this person. And SHE asked ME what books she could read that would make it seem like she knows the basics that someone who went to college knows. She's about to take some coding courses that hopefully will give her the skills to make some money and improve her situation. This is to just hold her own in the situations this might put her in until she does get the the time and space to do it the right way.
And I'll also say, once you get past the self righteous folks who dismiss the whole idea of this, there's some excellent recommendations here. I personally related to her story. Hard childhood myself. Though in my case, books were my escape - so that helped me get through a rough high school situation and get into and through college.
And if giving a full kindle that helps a person get more on their feet and feel more confident - even if they don't need it in the way they think they do - then why not?
posted by rileyray3000 at 11:40 AM on November 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
And I'll also say, once you get past the self righteous folks who dismiss the whole idea of this, there's some excellent recommendations here. I personally related to her story. Hard childhood myself. Though in my case, books were my escape - so that helped me get through a rough high school situation and get into and through college.
And if giving a full kindle that helps a person get more on their feet and feel more confident - even if they don't need it in the way they think they do - then why not?
posted by rileyray3000 at 11:40 AM on November 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
I've gotten more of what people think of as a classical college education from the Literature and History podcast then I did from 4 years in college. It is by far the most entertaining bit of self-education I've ever experienced. Detailed, accurate, and funny, the podcast covers history, literature, religion, and the overlap of all three in a chronological manner. After 98 episodes, our distinguished host Doug Metzger has taken us from the earliest cuneiform writing through the Greek and Roman classics (with side trips to Egypt and elsewhere in Mesopotamia) and the Bible. The podcast is currently in late antiquity before heading the the Middle Ages before arriving at the earliest works in English.
Sidenote: Really disappointing that the most favorited comments consist of unhelpful armchair psychoanalysis of the OP. Sheesh.
posted by lumpy at 11:58 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Sidenote: Really disappointing that the most favorited comments consist of unhelpful armchair psychoanalysis of the OP. Sheesh.
posted by lumpy at 11:58 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Thanks for the measured update, I was getting quite wound up about how very meta-Metafilter: insert judgment here some of the reaction to this post had been, given its subject, but your restraint in response is a model of how not to / to not engage in that cycle.
Given your addition on the coding courses, I would recommend a trio of pairs of non-fiction books that probably wouldn't crop up in college courses, because they're firmly popular, wide-ranging, well-written AND evidently place a value on those things ahead of their intellectual foundation. But I think they could end up sparking interest in many directions and make enough of an impression to stick in the mind as detail around subjects that might make conversation in a tech environment.
And, just to pre-empt, the first author had this snark written about him in the Wall Street Journal :
"There's a whiff of dorm-room bull sessions about the author's stimulating but often unsourced assertions."
which actually seems to me a major part of whatever those who pass through academia end up presenting as the value they gained in order to get ahead in the rest of their lives.
Anyway...
Sapiens + Homo Deus - Yuval Noah Harari (human history, history of science, social science, humanism, individualism, futurism)
Algorithms to Live By + The Alignment Problem - Brian Christian ("The Computer Science of Human Decisions", "Machine Learning and Human Values")
Stranger Than We Can Imagine + The Future Starts Here - John Higgs ("Making Sense of the 20th Century", "An Optimistic Guide to What Comes Next")
...
There's something of a counter-cultural / counter-establishment thread through them as well, and that question-received-authority aspect is something that I think could serve a lot ofstudents people from a wide range of backgrounds a lot better if educators people would open their doors, ears and forums a bit wider before setting down their syllabuses.
posted by protorp at 1:36 PM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Given your addition on the coding courses, I would recommend a trio of pairs of non-fiction books that probably wouldn't crop up in college courses, because they're firmly popular, wide-ranging, well-written AND evidently place a value on those things ahead of their intellectual foundation. But I think they could end up sparking interest in many directions and make enough of an impression to stick in the mind as detail around subjects that might make conversation in a tech environment.
And, just to pre-empt, the first author had this snark written about him in the Wall Street Journal :
"There's a whiff of dorm-room bull sessions about the author's stimulating but often unsourced assertions."
which actually seems to me a major part of whatever those who pass through academia end up presenting as the value they gained in order to get ahead in the rest of their lives.
Anyway...
Sapiens + Homo Deus - Yuval Noah Harari (human history, history of science, social science, humanism, individualism, futurism)
Algorithms to Live By + The Alignment Problem - Brian Christian ("The Computer Science of Human Decisions", "Machine Learning and Human Values")
Stranger Than We Can Imagine + The Future Starts Here - John Higgs ("Making Sense of the 20th Century", "An Optimistic Guide to What Comes Next")
...
There's something of a counter-cultural / counter-establishment thread through them as well, and that question-received-authority aspect is something that I think could serve a lot of
posted by protorp at 1:36 PM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
She might not be interested in Shakespeare at all, but if that’s a topic she does want to cover, I’d advise her to watch movies rather than reading the plays. Much Ado About Nothing, e.g. would plausibly be baffling on the page and perfectly comprehensible on the screen.
posted by LizardBreath at 2:09 PM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by LizardBreath at 2:09 PM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I would go for depth rather than breadth. Your friend surely has one or two areas that interest her already. She should focus on those areas and then research the heck out of them (read all the top books in those fields). For what it's worth, I have a college degree and two graduate degrees, and I never read most of the books that were mentioned in this (long) thread. However, when it comes to cocktail party conversation, I can hold my own in areas that are of particular interest to me. And if someone wants to discuss Derrida or Joyce something, then I either shut up, or I move on to another conversation partner.
posted by akk2014 at 3:10 PM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by akk2014 at 3:10 PM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'd defer to the experiences of successful Jeopardy! contestants who have shared how they got on the show and what they did to prepare. I think that's an amazing show for anyone of any education level to enjoy and learn from.
As an educator myself, I'd ask what her passions are and find literature that goes along those lines and see what else opens up. She'll be amazed.
If you're talking about traditional classic college/university reading, there are so many options. You can never go wrong with Shakespeare, Marlowe, and Chaucer. The Iliad and Odyssey are usually required reading. For something more modern, Kerouac. I could go on and on.
The main thing is to find what piques her interest and for her to delve into further works based on that foundation. That's what being smart is all about, regardless of subject matter.
posted by chatelaine at 12:23 AM on November 16, 2022
As an educator myself, I'd ask what her passions are and find literature that goes along those lines and see what else opens up. She'll be amazed.
If you're talking about traditional classic college/university reading, there are so many options. You can never go wrong with Shakespeare, Marlowe, and Chaucer. The Iliad and Odyssey are usually required reading. For something more modern, Kerouac. I could go on and on.
The main thing is to find what piques her interest and for her to delve into further works based on that foundation. That's what being smart is all about, regardless of subject matter.
posted by chatelaine at 12:23 AM on November 16, 2022
My parents never went to college and that kind of bothered them, so I understand the feeling. But still, by the time you're 40, it doesn't matter. You either like to read or you don't; and if you do, just read. Read the classics, or classic sci fi, or comics, just read.
But if you want to fake being college educated, here's two tips. One: try plays. They're short, far easier to get through than the classic novels; plus you can watch them instead. Knowing (say) 50 classic plays will impress people as much as reading 50 novels.
Two: read non-Western literature. If you've read the Tale of Genji, Things Fall Apart, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Tales of the Ten Princes, The Story of Sinuhe and the Shahnameh, you can intimidate the hell out of anyone who tries to lord it over you because they've read Tolstoy and you haven't. (And none of these are harder than Western classics.)
posted by zompist at 1:12 AM on November 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
But if you want to fake being college educated, here's two tips. One: try plays. They're short, far easier to get through than the classic novels; plus you can watch them instead. Knowing (say) 50 classic plays will impress people as much as reading 50 novels.
Two: read non-Western literature. If you've read the Tale of Genji, Things Fall Apart, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Tales of the Ten Princes, The Story of Sinuhe and the Shahnameh, you can intimidate the hell out of anyone who tries to lord it over you because they've read Tolstoy and you haven't. (And none of these are harder than Western classics.)
posted by zompist at 1:12 AM on November 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
If she’s in the market for glosses on the Western canon, Sandra Newman’s Western Lit Survival Kit has some pretty deep cuts and is quite funny.
posted by yarrow at 10:09 AM on November 16, 2022
posted by yarrow at 10:09 AM on November 16, 2022
I'm fairly well read in fiction, but I learned more from Daniel Boorstin's The Discoverers than any other history book I ever read. It answered questions I didn't even know I wanted the answers to - who invented clocks, and why? And it's very readable.
posted by Furnace of Doubt at 11:04 AM on November 16, 2022
posted by Furnace of Doubt at 11:04 AM on November 16, 2022
If she picks one worthwhile book and reads it enough times to really get it, in my mind that's better than reading the entire Western canon to the point of passing familiarity.
A work worth re-reading dozens of times is Paradise Lost. This would almost certainly lead to a meaningful advancement in a person's level of education, and they'd probably know how to take it from there after that.
posted by cthlsgnd at 11:55 AM on November 16, 2022
A work worth re-reading dozens of times is Paradise Lost. This would almost certainly lead to a meaningful advancement in a person's level of education, and they'd probably know how to take it from there after that.
posted by cthlsgnd at 11:55 AM on November 16, 2022
I totally disagree with most of the posters here. Reading all these books takes way too much time. If she wants to be about to fake knowledge, she should spend time browsing Wikipedia. She'll get a basic overview about essentially everything. If she wants to know more, she can click on the links for a more background info. If she wants a synopsis of literature, read SparkNotes. Half the time I look for the SparkNotes page after I finish a book anyway, so she may as well skip the first step. Maybe look up (college subject 101) textbook" and look at the chapter titles, maybe download the PDFs if she can find them. The X for Dummies type books could also be a great resource if she has a library card.
I think the biggest tip is that if she hears about something she doesn't understand, she should quickly look it up later or just ask the other person to explain the thing. The worst is when someone just says "Oh I don't know anything about that" and then they never bother to learn about it. That's such a lost opportunity. Just look it up or ask and she'll learn SO much.
posted by Penguin48 at 2:41 PM on November 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think the biggest tip is that if she hears about something she doesn't understand, she should quickly look it up later or just ask the other person to explain the thing. The worst is when someone just says "Oh I don't know anything about that" and then they never bother to learn about it. That's such a lost opportunity. Just look it up or ask and she'll learn SO much.
posted by Penguin48 at 2:41 PM on November 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
... am i the only one who’s getting a bit of a creepy Henry Higgins vibe from this question?
Maybe, but to even understand this remark you have to be familiar with at least one item from the literary canon. The subject of this post wants to be able to understand remarks like this.
Someone else mentioned that Pygmalion would be an especially good item to begin with. You don't even have to read it -- there are at least two movie versions. It is interesting to compare the 1938 movie of the play with Leslie Howard as Higgins to the 1964 movie of the musical My Fair Lady with Rex Harrison as Higgins.
posted by JonJacky at 7:50 PM on November 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Maybe, but to even understand this remark you have to be familiar with at least one item from the literary canon. The subject of this post wants to be able to understand remarks like this.
Someone else mentioned that Pygmalion would be an especially good item to begin with. You don't even have to read it -- there are at least two movie versions. It is interesting to compare the 1938 movie of the play with Leslie Howard as Higgins to the 1964 movie of the musical My Fair Lady with Rex Harrison as Higgins.
posted by JonJacky at 7:50 PM on November 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
... am i the only one who’s getting a bit of a creepy Henry Higgins vibe from this question?
Maybe, but to even understand this remark you have to be familiar with at least one item from the literary canon. The subject of this post wants to be able to understand remarks like this.
I have way too much education and I thought this was a reference to the Beverly Cleary book, and that I didn't get the reference because it's been so long since I read the book.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:58 PM on November 16, 2022
Maybe, but to even understand this remark you have to be familiar with at least one item from the literary canon. The subject of this post wants to be able to understand remarks like this.
I have way too much education and I thought this was a reference to the Beverly Cleary book, and that I didn't get the reference because it's been so long since I read the book.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:58 PM on November 16, 2022
... am i the only one who’s getting a bit of a creepy Henry Higgins vibe from this question?
Maybe, but to even understand this remark you have to be familiar with at least one item from the literary canon. The subject of this post wants to be able to understand remarks like this.
Googling for “Henry Higgins” will get you far enough to understand the remark. It was pre-Google, but it seemed easy enough for younger-me to watch My Fair Lady on TV one afternoon & then follow the thread back to Ovid.
So OP’s friend should read whatever the heck she likes, but each time she finds a reference that isn’t familiar she should take a moment to look it up. Any time she finds something that seems like it could be interesting, she should add it to her reading list. Pretty soon she’ll have constructed a random walk through a tiny part of the alleged canon, which is all that any of us have, educated to whatever level. You could do that entirely within wikipedia in principle, but books are a lot more immersive once you have the habit.
posted by Puppy McSock at 2:13 AM on November 17, 2022
Maybe, but to even understand this remark you have to be familiar with at least one item from the literary canon. The subject of this post wants to be able to understand remarks like this.
Googling for “Henry Higgins” will get you far enough to understand the remark. It was pre-Google, but it seemed easy enough for younger-me to watch My Fair Lady on TV one afternoon & then follow the thread back to Ovid.
So OP’s friend should read whatever the heck she likes, but each time she finds a reference that isn’t familiar she should take a moment to look it up. Any time she finds something that seems like it could be interesting, she should add it to her reading list. Pretty soon she’ll have constructed a random walk through a tiny part of the alleged canon, which is all that any of us have, educated to whatever level. You could do that entirely within wikipedia in principle, but books are a lot more immersive once you have the habit.
posted by Puppy McSock at 2:13 AM on November 17, 2022
As one of the people who made a Pygmalion joke, I'm starting to rethink this thread. I don't think what this person is self-conscious about is her lack of familiarity with the works of George Bernard Shaw. I have plenty of co-workers, some college-educated, some not, and there are probably only one or two who would get a Henry Higgins joke. I think she's probably much more self conscious about someone hearing her kid's age and doing the math and realizing that she had the kid when she was a teenager. And like, knowing that what shocks the virtuous philosopher delights the chameleon poet, or that if a lion could talk we couldn't understand it isn't going to change that. She could write a book about Keats or Wittgenstein, and people are still going to do that math and realize, "hey, teen mom". If she wants to know trivia, play trivia. If she wants to go to college, go to college. But all the Pygmalion jokes in the world aren't a defense against rude assumptions about class.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:03 AM on November 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kevinbelt at 9:03 AM on November 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Coming into this thread late: The Great Gatsby is actually good, for whatever it's worth, as much my high-school English class tried to destroy its goodness by taking apart every metaphor and symbol.
posted by shadytrees at 1:42 PM on November 25, 2022
posted by shadytrees at 1:42 PM on November 25, 2022
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This thread is closed to new comments.
But, to answer your question: There's a difference between being well read and being educated. There are plenty of people who might be very educated in say, engineering, but have never read a classic novel in their life, while there are people with a huge literary history who couldn't tell you about the 2nd law of thermodynamics if their life depended on it.
So with that caveat in mind, a well-rounded education would include a few classic old world novels (e.g. Pride and Prejudice, Great Expectations) a few American classics (e.g. The Colour Purple, To Kill A Mockingbird), some popular science books (e.g. The Selfish Gene, A Universe From Nothing) some classic best sellers (e.g. The Tipping Point, Sapiens), and, assuming you're in the US, a passing knowledge of the Bible would probably be helpful in certain sections of society.
There's a lot missing there, such as other religious texts, nothing on politics, nothing by Shakespeare or Homer or any of the great European classics, no philosophy, no South American or Asian or African works, etc. But no-one can read everything, and lots of "great" works are often unreadable (yes, Ulysses, I'm looking at you), so it's more about finding books that she enjoys and maybe reading more by that author or on that topic.
There are plenty of lists online of "the greatest novels" or "the greatest books of the 20th century" or "the best books on [subject]" or "[author's] 10 best works" and if you look through a few of them you'll find there are some books which crop up again and again, for good reason. Those are probably good ones to start with.
But she doesn't need to read anything to have value or worth in herself, and I hope she knows that.
posted by underclocked at 12:24 AM on November 15, 2022 [8 favorites]