1. Financial power of attorney 2. ??? 3. Managing Mom's bills
August 23, 2022 3:31 PM Subscribe
My 85-year-old mother appears to be on a slide toward Alzheimer's. We both agree that I need to be able to access her money in order to pay her bills for her. Her financial advisor says I need to get financial power of attorney. But what are the steps between doing that and my being able to get her a new debit card, pay her bills, etc.?
Mom needs to see her doctor and possibly a specialist, get better in-home care or move to assisted living, and be able to pay for things again. She has money, but can currently access it only by check because she canceled all of her credit and possibly debit cards in a panic. She has vision problems and writing checks correctly is very difficult for her.
She and I both agree that it would be best if I could take over her finances so that I can pay her bills from her money, make her online grocery delivery orders for her and pay with her credit card, and so on.
It appears that in her state, once I travel there we can simply print out the form, have a mobile notary come to her home, sign it, and have it notarized. (She is largely home-bound except for medical necessity.)
I'm planning to go try to do as much of this as I can in person. I realize that I might not manage to get all of the medical stuff done during this visit, let alone moving her into assisted living if that's what she needs given the waitlists I keep hearing about. Hopefully at least the financial stuff can get fixed, though? But I don't know what timeline to expect or what steps to take.
I can only stay for maybe 2-3 weeks because she lives so far away from me, and because she was an abusive parent to me and there's only so much time with her I can manage for my own mental health, especially going alone as I will this time. (Anxiety over this is probably why I'm rambling so much, sorry.) At the same time I'm worried that I won't be able to get enough done to help her out.
She's told me that she's filled out regular power of attorney paperwork for me, but neither of us realized that I was supposed to have that physical paperwork myself, or that financial matters were separate. I will get this paperwork when I go see her, though.
I'm assuming step 2 isn't "and then a miracle happens" ala The Far Side, so how do we get from "filled out and notarized FPOA" to "I can get Mom a new debit card issued, shop online for her, and write checks for her?"
We are in the USA. My father previously passed away so isn't relevant here.
Mom needs to see her doctor and possibly a specialist, get better in-home care or move to assisted living, and be able to pay for things again. She has money, but can currently access it only by check because she canceled all of her credit and possibly debit cards in a panic. She has vision problems and writing checks correctly is very difficult for her.
She and I both agree that it would be best if I could take over her finances so that I can pay her bills from her money, make her online grocery delivery orders for her and pay with her credit card, and so on.
It appears that in her state, once I travel there we can simply print out the form, have a mobile notary come to her home, sign it, and have it notarized. (She is largely home-bound except for medical necessity.)
I'm planning to go try to do as much of this as I can in person. I realize that I might not manage to get all of the medical stuff done during this visit, let alone moving her into assisted living if that's what she needs given the waitlists I keep hearing about. Hopefully at least the financial stuff can get fixed, though? But I don't know what timeline to expect or what steps to take.
I can only stay for maybe 2-3 weeks because she lives so far away from me, and because she was an abusive parent to me and there's only so much time with her I can manage for my own mental health, especially going alone as I will this time. (Anxiety over this is probably why I'm rambling so much, sorry.) At the same time I'm worried that I won't be able to get enough done to help her out.
She's told me that she's filled out regular power of attorney paperwork for me, but neither of us realized that I was supposed to have that physical paperwork myself, or that financial matters were separate. I will get this paperwork when I go see her, though.
I'm assuming step 2 isn't "and then a miracle happens" ala The Far Side, so how do we get from "filled out and notarized FPOA" to "I can get Mom a new debit card issued, shop online for her, and write checks for her?"
We are in the USA. My father previously passed away so isn't relevant here.
Best answer: I am not an attorney, but I've been my mother's financial POA for the past decade. I also just spent two months helping a cousin at the end of his life, and he did not appoint anyone as financial POA, and boy do we wish that he had!
My top piece of advice is to get this handled sooner rather than later. If you both agree that this needs to be done, do it ASAP so that it least the necessary paperwork is complete. My cousin declined so quickly that we were unable to get POA because he'd dragged his feet until he was no longer legally able to sign anything.
Once you've completed the POA, keep a copy with you at home. In most cases, you won't need it. But some things — banks, investment accounts — you'll need to produce your copy. With my mom, Vanguard was especially fussy about things. We had to jump through hoops to get me set up to handle her accounts, and I was glad I had all of the paperwork at my house.
You can have your mother's bills mailed to you at your place. (That'll make things easier.) And if you and your Mom spend the 2-3 weeks you have together setting up online accounts, that'll be super helpful too. I currently write a lot of checks for Mom (signing "Mother Roth by John D. Roth POA") because she didn't set up online accounts. But online accounts would be easier, obviously, especially since you're in separate cities.
One thing I've learned with both my mother and my cousin is that you can "fudge" a lot of online stuff, but never the major important stuff. So, for instance, some company might make you "sign" an online agreement that you are actually your Mom, and you will actually "sign" that even though you're you. You do it because it doesn't matter in this case and because you're POA and this just saves hassle. But you can't do that with the government, with a bank, and with investment companies. There, you're going to have to play by the rules.
Anyhow, I know this probably seems stressful. I remember getting things set up felt stressful to me. But now that I've been doing this for a decade, it's actually very simple. The hard part is getting things set up. Once you've done that, you just ask questions and the people on the other end (at the bank, at the investment firm) have been through this many times before so they can help talk you through it.
Good luck!
posted by jdroth at 3:54 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
My top piece of advice is to get this handled sooner rather than later. If you both agree that this needs to be done, do it ASAP so that it least the necessary paperwork is complete. My cousin declined so quickly that we were unable to get POA because he'd dragged his feet until he was no longer legally able to sign anything.
Once you've completed the POA, keep a copy with you at home. In most cases, you won't need it. But some things — banks, investment accounts — you'll need to produce your copy. With my mom, Vanguard was especially fussy about things. We had to jump through hoops to get me set up to handle her accounts, and I was glad I had all of the paperwork at my house.
You can have your mother's bills mailed to you at your place. (That'll make things easier.) And if you and your Mom spend the 2-3 weeks you have together setting up online accounts, that'll be super helpful too. I currently write a lot of checks for Mom (signing "Mother Roth by John D. Roth POA") because she didn't set up online accounts. But online accounts would be easier, obviously, especially since you're in separate cities.
One thing I've learned with both my mother and my cousin is that you can "fudge" a lot of online stuff, but never the major important stuff. So, for instance, some company might make you "sign" an online agreement that you are actually your Mom, and you will actually "sign" that even though you're you. You do it because it doesn't matter in this case and because you're POA and this just saves hassle. But you can't do that with the government, with a bank, and with investment companies. There, you're going to have to play by the rules.
Anyhow, I know this probably seems stressful. I remember getting things set up felt stressful to me. But now that I've been doing this for a decade, it's actually very simple. The hard part is getting things set up. Once you've done that, you just ask questions and the people on the other end (at the bank, at the investment firm) have been through this many times before so they can help talk you through it.
Good luck!
posted by jdroth at 3:54 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
If there's any chance she might be deemed incompetent, try to get the financial stuff done before the medical assessment.
posted by kate4914 at 4:09 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by kate4914 at 4:09 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
Best answer: If you can set up online accounts for all bills, credit cards, and banks, that will go a long way for you to be able to manage day to day financial activities. Do this when you are with her in case you need to receive an actual phone call on her phone or have her jump on the call and say yes I approve adding kutsushita nyanko to my account. Use your email address and phone number for the accounts with her name. Start documenting this in detail with all the account numbers and social security and birthdate and everything else you might need.
As jdroth said, in some cases you will need to present a physical Durable POA or at least email/mail a copy and these are sometimes expected (title transfer for real estate) and sometimes surprising (cancelling that electric line insurance on an electric bill).
In addition to monthly bills, think about things that are paid less frequently like property insurance, flood insurance, life insurance, and other types of accounts like health insurance, medicare, social security, all investment accounts, all bank accounts.
Try to schedule and attend doctor's appointments so you can go and be added as a person who can receive information. Try to get all the prescriptions on the same schedule and filled ideally online through the mail so there aren't inconvenient schedules for filling prescriptions.
posted by RoadScholar at 4:45 PM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
As jdroth said, in some cases you will need to present a physical Durable POA or at least email/mail a copy and these are sometimes expected (title transfer for real estate) and sometimes surprising (cancelling that electric line insurance on an electric bill).
In addition to monthly bills, think about things that are paid less frequently like property insurance, flood insurance, life insurance, and other types of accounts like health insurance, medicare, social security, all investment accounts, all bank accounts.
Try to schedule and attend doctor's appointments so you can go and be added as a person who can receive information. Try to get all the prescriptions on the same schedule and filled ideally online through the mail so there aren't inconvenient schedules for filling prescriptions.
posted by RoadScholar at 4:45 PM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
My mother, currently in memory care with Alzheimer's, knew what was coming and made excellent plans for this. In addition to making me her POA, she made me and my sister co-owners of her checking and savings account. That means our names are all all the checks, I have a debit card of my own, and anything having to do with her banking is completely transparent. If you can have this done, and have a fresh set of check ordered with your name alongside hers, it will make many things easier, and you won't need to whip out a fresh copy of the POA for every simple financial matter. I believe you need to have it set up as JTWROS (joint tenant with right of survivorship), and only one of us needs to sign checks, but the bank will know.
Good luck. This is a difficult situation, especially if you are far away, but you'll get through it!
posted by lhauser at 5:09 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Good luck. This is a difficult situation, especially if you are far away, but you'll get through it!
posted by lhauser at 5:09 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Forgot to add, she already had most of her deposits set up to go in automatically and her few bills are mostly paid automatically as well. The more of that you can set up, the better (and easier on you).
posted by lhauser at 5:11 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by lhauser at 5:11 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If you can get added as an authorized signer on your mother's accounts, that will go a long way toward accomplishing your objectives. As authorized signer (and your name doesn't have to be on the checks, just on file with the bank), you can write checks for your mom irrespective of where things stand with getting the POA straightened out. I just had boilerplate POAs done (in IL) and basically the POA doesn't kick in until there is affirmation by a physician that your mom is unable to handle her financial affairs herself. When my mom was declining, we never invoked the POA but I managed everything financial until she passed. I did it at her request and direction, and she signed whatever it was when a signature was needed. In essence, I acted as her agent under rather the same conditions as you're experiencing with your mom. It also helped a lot that my siblings were perfectly fine with my doing that, but you may need to consider who might challenge your authority.
posted by DrGail at 5:18 PM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by DrGail at 5:18 PM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
In addition to making me her POA, she made me and my sister co-owners of her checking and savings account. That means our names are all all the checks, I have a debit card of my own, and anything having to do with her banking is completely transparent.
My mother did this with me and my sister when she knew she had a terminal disease but well before it was a problem for her and it was SO helpful both during her end-of-life phase and immediately after she died. I'll also note that in some cases, if you're the same (sounding) gender as your parent you can sometimes accomplish things with tech support people on the phone presuming you know their personal details. This isn't always the case but sometimes is. I'd think about this for things like ordering a debit card (is your mom capable enough to do this now?) or setting up online banking.
My sister and I kept a shared Google doc with all my mom's information in it (it was more important for it to be convenient than for it to be 100% secure) including secret question answers, that sort of thing. A big thing right now is to make sure you keep an eye on accounts so you can tell if something weird is happening (odd money drains, that sort of thing). I also assisted an elderly friend here while she was nearing her end-of-life. She had very poor vision and had a template that she'd snap over checks so that she could write "between the lines" and know she was filling out all the parts correctly. But really, getting her set up with online bill paying as soon as you can will be an important first step.
My mother was also neglectful and I tried to put pretty firm boundaries over what I would and would not do. Be kind to yourself because this is hard and it's a kindness that you're doing. Good luck.
posted by jessamyn at 5:18 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
My mother did this with me and my sister when she knew she had a terminal disease but well before it was a problem for her and it was SO helpful both during her end-of-life phase and immediately after she died. I'll also note that in some cases, if you're the same (sounding) gender as your parent you can sometimes accomplish things with tech support people on the phone presuming you know their personal details. This isn't always the case but sometimes is. I'd think about this for things like ordering a debit card (is your mom capable enough to do this now?) or setting up online banking.
My sister and I kept a shared Google doc with all my mom's information in it (it was more important for it to be convenient than for it to be 100% secure) including secret question answers, that sort of thing. A big thing right now is to make sure you keep an eye on accounts so you can tell if something weird is happening (odd money drains, that sort of thing). I also assisted an elderly friend here while she was nearing her end-of-life. She had very poor vision and had a template that she'd snap over checks so that she could write "between the lines" and know she was filling out all the parts correctly. But really, getting her set up with online bill paying as soon as you can will be an important first step.
My mother was also neglectful and I tried to put pretty firm boundaries over what I would and would not do. Be kind to yourself because this is hard and it's a kindness that you're doing. Good luck.
posted by jessamyn at 5:18 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: My husband has a power of attorney for his mother that includes financial (but not healthcare - that's separate) but he has only used to sign contracts on her behalf. By the way, make sure you get hte POA to into effect immediately. It doesn't keep her from still doing whatever she wants but it also lets you start to act on behalf in whatever ways you agree.
Anyway, we got a lot more mileage from having her add me (DIL) as second party to her checking account (I think we had to both go in to the bank in person but there might be a way around that) and for her add me to her primary credit card. That let me spend money on her behalf. Then she gave me her bills as they came in and I switched them all over to billpay from her checking account once she was ready to give up on doing that herself. You can also do a lot online by just pretending to be her (with her consent) - not that I ever would do impersonate someone else, just saying it can be done very easily when the other person is willing to have you help in that way.
posted by metahawk at 5:28 PM on August 23, 2022
Anyway, we got a lot more mileage from having her add me (DIL) as second party to her checking account (I think we had to both go in to the bank in person but there might be a way around that) and for her add me to her primary credit card. That let me spend money on her behalf. Then she gave me her bills as they came in and I switched them all over to billpay from her checking account once she was ready to give up on doing that herself. You can also do a lot online by just pretending to be her (with her consent) - not that I ever would do impersonate someone else, just saying it can be done very easily when the other person is willing to have you help in that way.
posted by metahawk at 5:28 PM on August 23, 2022
What you can do with a POA versus a conservatorship theoretically varies state to state (presuming you're in the US), although 26 states have some version of the Uniform POA Act.
Practically, do the POA first, because it's easy; then figure out if you need the conservatorship now, or may need it later, etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:42 PM on August 23, 2022
Practically, do the POA first, because it's easy; then figure out if you need the conservatorship now, or may need it later, etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:42 PM on August 23, 2022
Response by poster: To answer jessamyn's question - between the vision problems and the confusion problems Mom definitely can't order a debit card or anything like that on her own. One problem I anticipate is that she has set up online accounts for a lot of things already in the past, but may or may not be able to remember how to access them. However at least her bills are fairly simple since she lives in a retirement community apartment and doesn't have utilities etc. to worry about.
The check template is a genius idea and probably would have been a lifesaver for her a couple years ago, if she had been more forthcoming about the problems she was experiencing then. I can't believe I didn't think of it.
posted by kutsushita nyanko at 7:49 PM on August 23, 2022
The check template is a genius idea and probably would have been a lifesaver for her a couple years ago, if she had been more forthcoming about the problems she was experiencing then. I can't believe I didn't think of it.
posted by kutsushita nyanko at 7:49 PM on August 23, 2022
For those who may read this thread later, for one of my grandmothers who had macular degeneration and dementia, we did the check template thing and also got her a self-inking signature stamp (call and make sure your bank will accept it before ordering the stamp, then usually you have to send them a sample to use for comparison).
Stamps can also be helpful for depositing checks and are still routinely used by businesses (e.g. 'FOR DEPOSIT ONLY TO #########' with no signature needed).
Same thing with a return address stamp, if there's a need for that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:00 PM on August 23, 2022
Stamps can also be helpful for depositing checks and are still routinely used by businesses (e.g. 'FOR DEPOSIT ONLY TO #########' with no signature needed).
Same thing with a return address stamp, if there's a need for that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:00 PM on August 23, 2022
Best answer: Although you didn’t ask about medical power of attorney, if that’s something your mom wants you to have, it needs to be done separately. Maybe talk to her when you’re there; depending on the state, you may be able to get a standard form for to sign when the notary is already there. If you’re not familiar, a medical PoA - sometimes called other things, like a durable power of attorney for health care of something along those lines - would authorize you to make medical decisions on her behalf (and have access to her medical records). If you google your state, you may find the form online - be sure it’s the government website or a reliable source of course.
posted by maleficent at 8:24 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by maleficent at 8:24 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Depending on your state, you might also want to consider having your Mom work with a lawyer to fill out a "pre-need guardian designation". This is a document that lets her name who will be her guardian in the event she is unable to make decisions for herself. The alternative is that when she is deemed (I think a doctor has to certify, again depending on state) incapable of managing her own affairs, someone becomes guardian, but that someone isn't someone _she_ necessarily wanted.
posted by TimHare at 9:18 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by TimHare at 9:18 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by praemunire at 3:37 PM on August 23, 2022