Metafilter Expats: How to live in a corrupt country?
June 29, 2022 2:45 PM Subscribe
A few years ago I moved to a country where corruption is endemic. As of late I've met more and more people (generally low level government clerks) who accept bribes as a matter of course in their jobs. On one hand it offends me to my little Protestant core and on the other they're just taking part in an economy that existed long before they came along. If you've lived this, how did you adjust?
Can you think of it like their local version of tipping your waiter/hairdresser/bellboy?
posted by noloveforned at 3:38 PM on June 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by noloveforned at 3:38 PM on June 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Hey, at least it's ordinary working people benefiting from corruption, not corporations and multimillionaires!
posted by emd3737 at 3:53 PM on June 29, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 3:53 PM on June 29, 2022 [26 favorites]
I find it useful to draw a distinction, even if a subjective and fuzzy one, between two types of bribery:
1) Bribery to procure an unjust outcome.
2) Bribery that smooths and facilitates a just and reasonable outcome.
All corruption is bad, but I do think that the second type is much less harmful than the first. So I wouldn't feel too bad about situations where someone is being bribed to do something they really ought to be doing anyway.
posted by kickingtheground at 4:05 PM on June 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
1) Bribery to procure an unjust outcome.
2) Bribery that smooths and facilitates a just and reasonable outcome.
All corruption is bad, but I do think that the second type is much less harmful than the first. So I wouldn't feel too bad about situations where someone is being bribed to do something they really ought to be doing anyway.
posted by kickingtheground at 4:05 PM on June 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
Best answer: In my brief experience in this kind of situation, I learned to distinguish between the "bribes are the fee you pay for careful work" kind of corruption and the "senators' relatives can commit whatever crimes they want with impunity" kind. They do often go hand in hand, but—despite what I was taught in the US growing up—they aren't really the same thing at all. Someone can give and take bribes following the normal rules of their town and still agree that nobody should be above the law. They're just two different issues.
(Or, if an analogy helps: It's just like how I, as an American, can speed and run red lights every day of my life and still agree that politicians and businessmen who commit serious crimes should go to jail. In American culture, they're two different issues.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:05 PM on June 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
(Or, if an analogy helps: It's just like how I, as an American, can speed and run red lights every day of my life and still agree that politicians and businessmen who commit serious crimes should go to jail. In American culture, they're two different issues.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:05 PM on June 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: So I wouldn't feel too bad about situations where someone is being bribed to do something they really ought to be doing anyway.
What about the person being bribed? Paying bribes is annoying but an inevitable part of life. Being friends with people who take bribes is where I'm stumbling.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:08 PM on June 29, 2022
What about the person being bribed? Paying bribes is annoying but an inevitable part of life. Being friends with people who take bribes is where I'm stumbling.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:08 PM on June 29, 2022
Yeah, I think that’s the framing you should use. It might not be 100% true, but it’s at least 75% true that corruption in developed countries is either institutionalized or just explained away by tricks of language. I think it’s also helpful to remember that a lot of corruption in the US isn’t visible to everyday people - things like quid pro quo donations to elected officials. What’s worse - your taxi driver asking for an extra $5 or your congressman asking the NRA for $50,000?
posted by kevinbelt at 4:09 PM on June 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 4:09 PM on June 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I'm assuming that the low-level government clerks you mention in the question don't make a lot of money. I think if you're going to have a problem with it it probably should be with their employers than with clerks who are trying to make ends meet.
I am from a country where bribery and corruption is endemic and I'm answering this question from that perspective. The gap between the rich and the poor in my country is enormous. The people who accept bribes are usually much less wealthy than the people bribing them. Like if they accepted bribes for every day of work they ever did in their life they wouldn't be able to achieve the level of wealth that a tiny percentage of the population have, for no other reason than accident of birth.
posted by unicorn chaser at 4:47 PM on June 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
I am from a country where bribery and corruption is endemic and I'm answering this question from that perspective. The gap between the rich and the poor in my country is enormous. The people who accept bribes are usually much less wealthy than the people bribing them. Like if they accepted bribes for every day of work they ever did in their life they wouldn't be able to achieve the level of wealth that a tiny percentage of the population have, for no other reason than accident of birth.
posted by unicorn chaser at 4:47 PM on June 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
It's not formal corruption it's informal bureaucracy.
posted by grog at 4:49 PM on June 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by grog at 4:49 PM on June 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
People who speed and run red lights every day of their lives are choosing not to value mine as someone who bikes and walks for transportation. But if I rule out as friends every person who gets in a car, I'd very quickly run out of people to talk to.
I'm not sure what works for you to be friends with people who are willing to risk my life to get somewhere a split second earlier, but whatever mental gymnastics you use there will also work on petty bribery.
posted by aniola at 5:51 PM on June 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure what works for you to be friends with people who are willing to risk my life to get somewhere a split second earlier, but whatever mental gymnastics you use there will also work on petty bribery.
posted by aniola at 5:51 PM on June 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Yes, in many countries government clerks do not make much money as a base salary. Asking them to not take bribes would be like expecting a sales associate to not get commissions - it wouldn't be a livable wage. And depending on the flavor of corruption in this country, it's possible the government might go months without paying its employees - at least, that routinely happened in the place I lived. Clerks literally depended on bribes to put food on the table.
That said, I think it's worth distinguishing between bribes that are just adding to the cost of doing business (i.e. if you want a certain service done promptly (or at all), it will cost extra), versus those that enable harm on a large scale (i.e. a government official taking a bribe to overlook a company's pollution that will result in thousands of people getting sick or dying prematurely). The former is just like a tip or a commission, the latter is more sinister.
posted by coffeecat at 6:05 PM on June 29, 2022 [12 favorites]
That said, I think it's worth distinguishing between bribes that are just adding to the cost of doing business (i.e. if you want a certain service done promptly (or at all), it will cost extra), versus those that enable harm on a large scale (i.e. a government official taking a bribe to overlook a company's pollution that will result in thousands of people getting sick or dying prematurely). The former is just like a tip or a commission, the latter is more sinister.
posted by coffeecat at 6:05 PM on June 29, 2022 [12 favorites]
I am old. I have lived in NYC for many years and have also lived in Chicago for about 15 years among several other cities. I tell people that Chicago was the easiest city in which to live because in Chicago you know who to pay off to get something done whereas in NY you don't know if it stops at the first person. In Chicago, at least in the 80s and 90s, if you wanted something fixed on your block, say a no parking sign added or a series of street lamps fixed, you paid the alderman. Not overtly. You made a donation to their next election campaign and viola, work would get done. "You know, the Alderman shares your concern about parking on your block. However, the Alderman is really busy with other matters and their re-election campaign right now. Maybe if they didn't have to spend so much time fundraising...." So, you make a $250 donation to their campaign, call back and ask if it was received, and well the grease works.
But, that leads to distrust. If I shook hands with the Alderman I would count my fingers afterwards to make sure they didn't steal one.
Would I be friendly with someone who took routine bribes as part of their job in a country where that is normalized? Yes, and I would hope when I need their services I get a freebie.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:37 PM on June 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
But, that leads to distrust. If I shook hands with the Alderman I would count my fingers afterwards to make sure they didn't steal one.
Would I be friendly with someone who took routine bribes as part of their job in a country where that is normalized? Yes, and I would hope when I need their services I get a freebie.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:37 PM on June 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
My point was that every country people accept bribes. It is just a matter of what they call it. See what Superilla wrote above.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:39 PM on June 29, 2022
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:39 PM on June 29, 2022
That said, I think it's worth distinguishing between bribes that are just adding to the cost of doing business (i.e. if you want a certain service done promptly (or at all), it will cost extra), versus those that enable harm on a large scale (i.e. a government official taking a bribe to overlook a company's pollution that will result in thousands of people getting sick or dying prematurely).
These two things are not necessarily that distinct or separated. In many countries lower level administrators/ officials buy their initial job from higher ups, and each subsequent promotion and raise are also purchased. Part of the money flows upwards in this type of patronage business and (some) lower level corruptors graduate to more senior positions.
posted by zeikka at 6:56 PM on June 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
These two things are not necessarily that distinct or separated. In many countries lower level administrators/ officials buy their initial job from higher ups, and each subsequent promotion and raise are also purchased. Part of the money flows upwards in this type of patronage business and (some) lower level corruptors graduate to more senior positions.
posted by zeikka at 6:56 PM on June 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I can't tell you how many times people new to America have told me they were stunned to discover that politicians not only accept but expect bribes from major companies. Not just lobbying but in the form of corporate PAC donations, which can be very big money. And that any rich person can basically buy a legislator!
posted by potrzebie at 7:57 PM on June 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 7:57 PM on June 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
I assume you moved FROM the US?
In that case, keep in mind that nothing gets done in US government anymore without PAC money paying for votes. Candidates take huge PAC donations to vote the way the PAC wants, and then they get cushy private consulting jobs with the corporations they boosted (or working with them).
I'm not sure how that's NOT corruption, but it's all "legal." Might be a way to keep perspective.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 8:59 PM on June 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
In that case, keep in mind that nothing gets done in US government anymore without PAC money paying for votes. Candidates take huge PAC donations to vote the way the PAC wants, and then they get cushy private consulting jobs with the corporations they boosted (or working with them).
I'm not sure how that's NOT corruption, but it's all "legal." Might be a way to keep perspective.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 8:59 PM on June 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
I remember reading an old guide to African overland travel which talked about this. They pointed out that it is wise to be aware that corruption is going to get in your way in advance, any it is equally wise to avoid mentioning it explicitly in your dealings. You can absolutely refuse to pay bribes - but you should realise that will slow or stop your progress. They suggested a phrase like "In my country, it would be normal to pay a small fee in circumstances like this. Would that be appropriate here?[brandishes $20 bill]"
posted by rongorongo at 1:08 AM on June 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 1:08 AM on June 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm going to make a suggestion that won't work for most people. In fact, I'm wondering if it's even worth making it. But here goes, anyway: allow yourself to practice living in a morally-gray world. By "morally gray," I don't mean "a world in which it's unclear what's right and what's wrong." I mean a world in which most people--including you and your friends--aren't clear-cut good guys or bad guys.
If you get used to modeling the world this way, you'll stop asking questions like, "How can I see that behavior as okay?" You won't try to reframe or justify. You'll try--as best you can--to not live in a melodrama. This is very challenging, because most religious upbringings and virtually all popular storytelling pounds melodrama into our heads as the only way of seeing the world. Dropping "If I'm going to live with these folks, I have to see them as good people" creates unbearable cognitive dissonance for--seemingly--the majority of people.
But I've been forced into a non-melodrama way of thinking. Virtually everyone I know isn't a good guy or a bad guy; they're all grey guys. And I don't mean that in a "Sure, sure, none of us is perfect" intellectualizing way. I mean in a deeply-felt way. What did this to me was spending years living as an ethical vegan. I believe that what we do to animals is morally on par with the Holocaust. (I'm a Jew who had family members murdered in death camps, so I don't toss around the world "Holocaust" lightly.)
I'm not making a pro-vegan argument here. You may think people like me are rational, irrational, sane, over-the-top, or nuts. My point is that I believe this to be the case. And yet I have to live in a world in which virtually everyone I know--almost all of my friends, my family members, my wife, and all sorts of strangers I admire for other things they do--contribute daily to something I believe is monstrous.
And not only that: I contribute to it. True, I am vegan, but where do I get my onions, beans, carrots, and potatoes? The grocery store. And I know that some of the money I give them goes to fund factory farms. With a lot of inconvenience, I could buy all my produce at farmers' markets from crop-only farms, but I don't, because I'm too selfish to do that. The grocery store is open 24/7 and it's a three-minute drive from my house.
Sorry to go on for so long about the unrelated topic of veganism. There are lots of other ways I and the folks I love are, in my view, behaving very badly. Like most people I know, I use lots of my disposable income to buy gadgets that I soon get bored with. They wind up gathering dust on my shelves. It's pretty horrible that I do that instead of giving more to charities.
Etc.
When I think this way, I do my best to not justify. I just sit with "The people I love are morally gray and so am I." And we are gray--not simply evil--because we do lots of good things, too. I don't give as much to charities as I should, but I do give to them. So, I bet, do many of those functionaries taking bribes. It's bad that they take bribes and it's good that they give money to the poor. It's good that they care for their children. It's good that they are kind to strangers. Both the good and the bad are parts of who they are. The good doesn't cancel out the bad; the bad doesn't cancel out the good.
I find this kind of thinking is really useful for making the world a better place. Because, for many folks the alternative is to come up with some way they can think of themselves and their friends as good (or "basically good") people and avoid anything that might rock that mental model too much, which means also avoiding improving it. I'm currently not going to the farmers' market, but I need to keep that "You should probably go to the farmers' market" idea afloat in my mind. Perhaps, at some point, it will prompt me to do better. I can't just rest in the warm bath of "I'm basically good."
Does this mean you should simply befriend every racist, con-artist, abuser, and so on--because "We're all bad in one way or another"? No. Of course not. You shouldn't befriend people who squick you out, offend you, and so on. But I feel like we've slipped into being a culture in which we frame all moral questions as "Who should I be friends with? Who should I block? Who should I hang around? Who should I avoid?" This is melodrama. Good guys; bad guys.
There's another way. It's simply asking yourself "What small thing can I do today to make the world a better place?" Sometimes the answer to that is "End my relationship with Bob!" But it's worth asking what that will likely accomplish. In some cases, it may make Bob rethink his actions and, to some degree, reform. In others, it's more likely he'll just grow bitter and reactive, and perhaps behave even more badly as a result. If I divorced my meat-eating wife and cut myself off from all my omnivorous friends, would that make them rethink ordering burgers? I doubt it. I'd just be another asshole, judgy (not to mention grocery-store hypocritical) vegan. Perhaps I can do better with love than chastisement, estrangement, blocking, canceling, and ostracizing. And for me, love starts with the recognition that I too am weak; I too am imperfect.
It's recognizing that I'm not better than my non-vegan friends. Nor am I better than those functionaries taking bribes. I'm an atheist, but I'm very attractive to the Christian idea that we're all sinners. The day I avoid thinking of myself as a sinner is the day I'm morally lost. So some people sin worse than others? Sure. But how much is there to gain by constantly ranking, ranking, ranking.
If I was a worker in the culture you're in, I would probably be taking bribes, too--especially if that was the only way to make enough money to feed my family. But you know what? I'm selfish sometimes. It's possible I'd also do it because I wanted to be able to buy a new iPad. Unless you're a saint, try getting in touch with the part of you that might do that, too. Or that might be doing something like it already.
posted by grumblebee at 8:16 AM on June 30, 2022 [27 favorites]
If you get used to modeling the world this way, you'll stop asking questions like, "How can I see that behavior as okay?" You won't try to reframe or justify. You'll try--as best you can--to not live in a melodrama. This is very challenging, because most religious upbringings and virtually all popular storytelling pounds melodrama into our heads as the only way of seeing the world. Dropping "If I'm going to live with these folks, I have to see them as good people" creates unbearable cognitive dissonance for--seemingly--the majority of people.
But I've been forced into a non-melodrama way of thinking. Virtually everyone I know isn't a good guy or a bad guy; they're all grey guys. And I don't mean that in a "Sure, sure, none of us is perfect" intellectualizing way. I mean in a deeply-felt way. What did this to me was spending years living as an ethical vegan. I believe that what we do to animals is morally on par with the Holocaust. (I'm a Jew who had family members murdered in death camps, so I don't toss around the world "Holocaust" lightly.)
I'm not making a pro-vegan argument here. You may think people like me are rational, irrational, sane, over-the-top, or nuts. My point is that I believe this to be the case. And yet I have to live in a world in which virtually everyone I know--almost all of my friends, my family members, my wife, and all sorts of strangers I admire for other things they do--contribute daily to something I believe is monstrous.
And not only that: I contribute to it. True, I am vegan, but where do I get my onions, beans, carrots, and potatoes? The grocery store. And I know that some of the money I give them goes to fund factory farms. With a lot of inconvenience, I could buy all my produce at farmers' markets from crop-only farms, but I don't, because I'm too selfish to do that. The grocery store is open 24/7 and it's a three-minute drive from my house.
Sorry to go on for so long about the unrelated topic of veganism. There are lots of other ways I and the folks I love are, in my view, behaving very badly. Like most people I know, I use lots of my disposable income to buy gadgets that I soon get bored with. They wind up gathering dust on my shelves. It's pretty horrible that I do that instead of giving more to charities.
Etc.
When I think this way, I do my best to not justify. I just sit with "The people I love are morally gray and so am I." And we are gray--not simply evil--because we do lots of good things, too. I don't give as much to charities as I should, but I do give to them. So, I bet, do many of those functionaries taking bribes. It's bad that they take bribes and it's good that they give money to the poor. It's good that they care for their children. It's good that they are kind to strangers. Both the good and the bad are parts of who they are. The good doesn't cancel out the bad; the bad doesn't cancel out the good.
I find this kind of thinking is really useful for making the world a better place. Because, for many folks the alternative is to come up with some way they can think of themselves and their friends as good (or "basically good") people and avoid anything that might rock that mental model too much, which means also avoiding improving it. I'm currently not going to the farmers' market, but I need to keep that "You should probably go to the farmers' market" idea afloat in my mind. Perhaps, at some point, it will prompt me to do better. I can't just rest in the warm bath of "I'm basically good."
Does this mean you should simply befriend every racist, con-artist, abuser, and so on--because "We're all bad in one way or another"? No. Of course not. You shouldn't befriend people who squick you out, offend you, and so on. But I feel like we've slipped into being a culture in which we frame all moral questions as "Who should I be friends with? Who should I block? Who should I hang around? Who should I avoid?" This is melodrama. Good guys; bad guys.
There's another way. It's simply asking yourself "What small thing can I do today to make the world a better place?" Sometimes the answer to that is "End my relationship with Bob!" But it's worth asking what that will likely accomplish. In some cases, it may make Bob rethink his actions and, to some degree, reform. In others, it's more likely he'll just grow bitter and reactive, and perhaps behave even more badly as a result. If I divorced my meat-eating wife and cut myself off from all my omnivorous friends, would that make them rethink ordering burgers? I doubt it. I'd just be another asshole, judgy (not to mention grocery-store hypocritical) vegan. Perhaps I can do better with love than chastisement, estrangement, blocking, canceling, and ostracizing. And for me, love starts with the recognition that I too am weak; I too am imperfect.
It's recognizing that I'm not better than my non-vegan friends. Nor am I better than those functionaries taking bribes. I'm an atheist, but I'm very attractive to the Christian idea that we're all sinners. The day I avoid thinking of myself as a sinner is the day I'm morally lost. So some people sin worse than others? Sure. But how much is there to gain by constantly ranking, ranking, ranking.
If I was a worker in the culture you're in, I would probably be taking bribes, too--especially if that was the only way to make enough money to feed my family. But you know what? I'm selfish sometimes. It's possible I'd also do it because I wanted to be able to buy a new iPad. Unless you're a saint, try getting in touch with the part of you that might do that, too. Or that might be doing something like it already.
posted by grumblebee at 8:16 AM on June 30, 2022 [27 favorites]
Flagged as fantastic, grumblebee.
posted by unicorn chaser at 9:26 AM on June 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by unicorn chaser at 9:26 AM on June 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you everyone for sharing your experience. Recognizing the realistic choices for the poor helps a lot; I checked into it and a lot of the people I’m encountering are making a lot less than I thought (and I thought they were making very little).
That still leaves some higher ups who are bleeding the government dry. I occasionally get pitched an idea by one of them who can use a foreign investor with cash, but I think it’s probably for the best if I leave my alarms blaring for those guys.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:59 PM on June 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
That still leaves some higher ups who are bleeding the government dry. I occasionally get pitched an idea by one of them who can use a foreign investor with cash, but I think it’s probably for the best if I leave my alarms blaring for those guys.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:59 PM on June 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
As above, it's 'paperwork' bribes and 'corruption' bribes was how I separated the two fees. I got a detailed breakdown of where the paperwork bribes went for, e.g. issuing a document necessary to transfer a child from place X to place Z. You might pay the accepted going rate of $100 to get the document within the usual timeframe of a week. You could pay $200 to have your folder moved to the top of the stack and processed faster (somewhat corrupt), and pay $500 to have the document processed without some of the necessary supporting documents (def. corrupt, but depending on circumstances, ethical and/or financially cheaper than paying separately to get those supporting documents).
Now from the usual $100, the clerk taking the bribe keeps maybe $10. The other $90 gets split going up the chain - their boss, the head of the office, then the final cut to whoever is at the top, who will usually pay another slice out of their vast pie to the head of the whole place.
I got actual numbers on what went where at one point for three particular processes in the country we were working in, and the profit involved for the people at the top was eye-watering. For the people taking the bribe/fee on the ground, it added up to a living wage, given their official salary was absolutely tiny.
And - if for some reason, you did not pay the going rate, your document now required them to pay the $90 cut to everyone else and forgo their $10 share. So your document got shoved to the bottom of the pile to gather dust because they could not afford to work on it compared to paying customers.
I now work in a very audited government place and the way money is handled and tracked is in some ways similar, except it's on the books. We pay $X amount for a product which is then allocated to various cost centres, but the state takes the whole price, rather than the heads of the state individually.
Definitely run prices you get asked for by local friends to make sure you are paying a reasonable expat rate for paperwork fees. It's easiest to go through a local fixer who takes their cut out of the negotiated down fees, but if you live there, you should learn the accepted local approach - coffee money, paying for meals, contributing a donation of something specifically request, an envelope included in documentation, etc.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:10 PM on June 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Now from the usual $100, the clerk taking the bribe keeps maybe $10. The other $90 gets split going up the chain - their boss, the head of the office, then the final cut to whoever is at the top, who will usually pay another slice out of their vast pie to the head of the whole place.
I got actual numbers on what went where at one point for three particular processes in the country we were working in, and the profit involved for the people at the top was eye-watering. For the people taking the bribe/fee on the ground, it added up to a living wage, given their official salary was absolutely tiny.
And - if for some reason, you did not pay the going rate, your document now required them to pay the $90 cut to everyone else and forgo their $10 share. So your document got shoved to the bottom of the pile to gather dust because they could not afford to work on it compared to paying customers.
I now work in a very audited government place and the way money is handled and tracked is in some ways similar, except it's on the books. We pay $X amount for a product which is then allocated to various cost centres, but the state takes the whole price, rather than the heads of the state individually.
Definitely run prices you get asked for by local friends to make sure you are paying a reasonable expat rate for paperwork fees. It's easiest to go through a local fixer who takes their cut out of the negotiated down fees, but if you live there, you should learn the accepted local approach - coffee money, paying for meals, contributing a donation of something specifically request, an envelope included in documentation, etc.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:10 PM on June 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Historian ChrisO has been posting a few threads about corruption in the Russian military recently. I would recommend this one then this one and finally this one. One of the things I think he explains well, is how corruption can spread in a network that makes it very difficult for individual people to avoid it. He talks about the concept of "krysha" - literally the "roof" you pay others to provide as part of a protection racket. You pay some thugs to protect you or your small business - the thugs pay the police to look the other way - and maybe your clients pay you to actually get some service. Since there is no proper law and order - all the way up to the top - then (as a citizen) being the person to try to stand up to corruption is both dangerous and futile. Instead, it is the corrupt network itself which becomes the de-facto system of law.
posted by rongorongo at 11:08 PM on June 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rongorongo at 11:08 PM on June 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by coffeecat at 2:57 PM on June 29, 2022 [13 favorites]