Neighbor believes our wifi makes them sick
May 26, 2022 6:50 AM Subscribe
I am trying to remain empathetic and rational while dealing with increasingly drastic wifi requests from our neighbor.
Long story short, we just moved into a cohousing community in a major city. Our townhouse shares a wall with a neighbor who believes she suffers from electromagnetic hypersensitivity (EHS), especially from wifi. The previous resident agreed to move her office from the wall we share (which is by neighbor's bedroom) and relocate to a second bedroom upstairs and as far away as possible. She also agreed to turn off the wifi at night.
We've maintained this accommodation even though we believe it's an unreasonable ask and we are three adult roommates (not a single family unit) with very different schedules and lifestyles. Our neighbor has brought the issue to the cohousing mediation committee, and we are meeting again tomorrow. I am told our neighbor will request that we install ethernet cables (apparently not at our cost or labor), which seems like a big inconvenience.
My wife and our roommate are trying to remain rational, but we feel very angry as this issue has dragged on for months, so we are probably not being very rational. On top of the EHS/wifi concern, the same neighbor did not get vaccinated for covid for what appear to not medically required reasons from the outside. Something feels deeply upsetting for this person to not be vaccinated (in a mostly boomer community) and be asking the community to constantly take care of her wifi beliefs. Finally, we will have a baby this fall and our baby monitor will presumably have wifi or radiate some kind of EMF. Is she going to expect us to turn that off?
Even as I type this I can feel myself getting angry about it and starting to go off onto tangents that are probably not going to help our cause. How do we continue to be rational and empathetic as the goal posts for her wifi requests seem to keep moving? We all think it's important to be as kind as possible even if we don't feel it. But I really don't want to let this person control our home life like this.
Long story short, we just moved into a cohousing community in a major city. Our townhouse shares a wall with a neighbor who believes she suffers from electromagnetic hypersensitivity (EHS), especially from wifi. The previous resident agreed to move her office from the wall we share (which is by neighbor's bedroom) and relocate to a second bedroom upstairs and as far away as possible. She also agreed to turn off the wifi at night.
We've maintained this accommodation even though we believe it's an unreasonable ask and we are three adult roommates (not a single family unit) with very different schedules and lifestyles. Our neighbor has brought the issue to the cohousing mediation committee, and we are meeting again tomorrow. I am told our neighbor will request that we install ethernet cables (apparently not at our cost or labor), which seems like a big inconvenience.
My wife and our roommate are trying to remain rational, but we feel very angry as this issue has dragged on for months, so we are probably not being very rational. On top of the EHS/wifi concern, the same neighbor did not get vaccinated for covid for what appear to not medically required reasons from the outside. Something feels deeply upsetting for this person to not be vaccinated (in a mostly boomer community) and be asking the community to constantly take care of her wifi beliefs. Finally, we will have a baby this fall and our baby monitor will presumably have wifi or radiate some kind of EMF. Is she going to expect us to turn that off?
Even as I type this I can feel myself getting angry about it and starting to go off onto tangents that are probably not going to help our cause. How do we continue to be rational and empathetic as the goal posts for her wifi requests seem to keep moving? We all think it's important to be as kind as possible even if we don't feel it. But I really don't want to let this person control our home life like this.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No.
Is there anything in your lease about it? If not then they can't force you.
I mean, wired networks are faster, but any guests' devices (e.g., phones) are locked out.
Sooner or later there will be a device using wireless that can't be cabled. Starting with the baby monitor, as well as garage door openers, car remote openers, security cameras, tracking tags (e.g., Tile), tire pressure monitors, wireless utility meters, and ONE MILLION OTHER DEVICES that radiate RF.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
No.
Is there anything in your lease about it? If not then they can't force you.
I mean, wired networks are faster, but any guests' devices (e.g., phones) are locked out.
Sooner or later there will be a device using wireless that can't be cabled. Starting with the baby monitor, as well as garage door openers, car remote openers, security cameras, tracking tags (e.g., Tile), tire pressure monitors, wireless utility meters, and ONE MILLION OTHER DEVICES that radiate RF.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
"EHS" does not exist except in the mind of the sufferer. Your neighbors have a mental illness that is not your problem. Talking to them will do no good at all. Sure, try to be nice, but if you concede anything to them they will just take more and more. If I were in your situation I'd stop talking to them directly at all and I'd do everything I can to make sure the cohousing committee is on my side.
posted by Nelson at 6:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [61 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 6:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [61 favorites]
If it was me I would have bought a cheap SDR dongle and sampled the wireless spectrum that washes through the house. Let them fight all those people first, then come to me.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:57 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 6:57 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Some WiFi routers have the ability to disable SSID broadcast, which would conceal the existence of your wireless network from your neighbor (at least from a casual check). You'd just have to manually enter the name of your network once on each wireless device you want to use.
posted by letourneau at 6:57 AM on May 26, 2022 [164 favorites]
posted by letourneau at 6:57 AM on May 26, 2022 [164 favorites]
It is not reasonable in 2022 for them to live in any sort of city or town and expect their wifi standards to be met. I’m in a suburban neighborhood and if I open up my phone right now I can find at least 6 other wifi networks in range and that’s with us all living in single family homes. Even if it’s not you, it’s someone else.
Check you lease and then just ignore everything else
posted by raccoon409 at 6:58 AM on May 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
Check you lease and then just ignore everything else
posted by raccoon409 at 6:58 AM on May 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
It's impossible to answer this question without knowing more about the rules and culture of your cohousing community and specifically the mediation community. As others have said already, the only problem is in the mind of your neighbor. You should not have to accommodate that, full stop. It's not clear, though, whether the mediation committee will accept that.
Is it possible for you to reach out to any members of the committee in advance, to get an inkling of their perspective? It's possible that a large number of community members are equally frustrated by this neighbor because of her refusal to get vaccinated. They may be looking for an opportunity to draw a line with her. You could provide that.
On the other hand, if they are sympathetic with her concerns, you'll have to take a more conciliating approach. It really depends.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:01 AM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
Is it possible for you to reach out to any members of the committee in advance, to get an inkling of their perspective? It's possible that a large number of community members are equally frustrated by this neighbor because of her refusal to get vaccinated. They may be looking for an opportunity to draw a line with her. You could provide that.
On the other hand, if they are sympathetic with her concerns, you'll have to take a more conciliating approach. It really depends.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:01 AM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
How does she know where and how you are using wifi? Is it possible to give non-committal answers to her requests ("sure, we'll look into that") and then just go about doing what works for you?
posted by mcduff at 7:01 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by mcduff at 7:01 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Your interlocutor is very likely mentally ill and unlikely to be amenable to any rational argument. Just ... be aware of that. No sane rational person falls for this EHS stuff.
Let them pay for everything (ethernet), then set your network to something random, disable SSID broadcast and proceed to use wifi anyway and, if you really want to be a dick, get an SDR dongle, scan (when your devices are off) and point this person in the direction of every other network in range (eg., if you're in the US then there's very likely multiple AT&T, Comcast, etc. wifi routers in range). They'll probably totter off in fruitless directions and thereby not bother you specifically any longer.
posted by aramaic at 7:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [18 favorites]
Let them pay for everything (ethernet), then set your network to something random, disable SSID broadcast and proceed to use wifi anyway and, if you really want to be a dick, get an SDR dongle, scan (when your devices are off) and point this person in the direction of every other network in range (eg., if you're in the US then there's very likely multiple AT&T, Comcast, etc. wifi routers in range). They'll probably totter off in fruitless directions and thereby not bother you specifically any longer.
posted by aramaic at 7:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [18 favorites]
Lie. Sometimes in life you have to lie. This is a time to lie. Yes you turned the wifi off.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:03 AM on May 26, 2022 [68 favorites]
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:03 AM on May 26, 2022 [68 favorites]
I'd ignore them.
(well, actually I'd change my SSID to "electromagnetic hypersensitivity is bullshit", but ignoring them would be best).
posted by pompomtom at 7:04 AM on May 26, 2022 [26 favorites]
(well, actually I'd change my SSID to "electromagnetic hypersensitivity is bullshit", but ignoring them would be best).
posted by pompomtom at 7:04 AM on May 26, 2022 [26 favorites]
As far as I'm aware, the health impact on you of the halogens present in the suggested Ethernet cabling solution are every bit as dangerous as the EHS risks of the wifi, if not more. They're transferring literally 100% of their legitimate health concerns from themselves to you.
posted by ftm at 7:05 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by ftm at 7:05 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Another vote for lying. Change and hide your network name. If you want, after a few months you can make it visible again and just deny that it is yours. Call it Starbucks342 or some other thing nearby and let them go after Starbucks/whoever.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:13 AM on May 26, 2022 [35 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:13 AM on May 26, 2022 [35 favorites]
Honestly, I think she sounds mentally ill and completely unable to have a rational conversation on this topic. As others pointed out, you literally can't live life without wi-fi being in the world. If she really really really is super sick from wi-fi, she needs to move to Snowflake, Arizona. I'm inclined to say lie, too.
But that said, I don't know anything on cohousing and I'm guessing maybe it is possible for this cohousing whatever to force you to jump through her hoops. And if the cohousing whatever is letting her do whatever she wants to your home...I don't know if there's legal recourse for that or if would just be easier to move.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
But that said, I don't know anything on cohousing and I'm guessing maybe it is possible for this cohousing whatever to force you to jump through her hoops. And if the cohousing whatever is letting her do whatever she wants to your home...I don't know if there's legal recourse for that or if would just be easier to move.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh, and you might want to let them buy you some ethernet cables, just so they don't suspect.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:21 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:21 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
Your neighbors have a mental illness that is not your problem
A lot of people here seem to believe this is true, and it's not. A neighbour's mental illness might not be your responsibility, it can very, very much be your problem.
Consider changing your WIFI name to something like "Cellular - [address across the street]".
posted by mhoye at 7:30 AM on May 26, 2022 [45 favorites]
A lot of people here seem to believe this is true, and it's not. A neighbour's mental illness might not be your responsibility, it can very, very much be your problem.
Consider changing your WIFI name to something like "Cellular - [address across the street]".
posted by mhoye at 7:30 AM on May 26, 2022 [45 favorites]
Some WiFi routers have the ability to disable SSID broadcast, which would conceal the existence of your wireless network from your neighbor (at least from a casual check). You'd just have to manually enter the name of your network once on each wireless device you want to use.
If this isn't possible, I'd change the name of your network to "Xfinity" or some other default thing. (What mhat said, basically.)
If you guys are co-owners in a cohousing community, you are presumably not getting away from each other any time soon, so preserving the peace is probably worthwhile even though her request is wildly unreasonable.
posted by mskyle at 7:33 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
If this isn't possible, I'd change the name of your network to "Xfinity" or some other default thing. (What mhat said, basically.)
If you guys are co-owners in a cohousing community, you are presumably not getting away from each other any time soon, so preserving the peace is probably worthwhile even though her request is wildly unreasonable.
posted by mskyle at 7:33 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Hide your SSID. Many access points allow this. And if yours doesn’t, get one that does.
posted by at at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by at at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Politely decline any requests and completely disengage. Any engagement is going to produce further demands.
posted by Ferreous at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
You know, a Faraday cage blocks electromagnetic radiation. Your neighbor could install tin-foil wallpaper and relieve all her suffering. You might even provide some rolls, enough to do the wall adjacent your unit.
This thread is getting pretty gross.
I think that we can, as a community, find a better set of suggestions about how to navigate this than making fun of somebody with a mental illness.
posted by mhoye at 7:38 AM on May 26, 2022 [35 favorites]
This thread is getting pretty gross.
I think that we can, as a community, find a better set of suggestions about how to navigate this than making fun of somebody with a mental illness.
posted by mhoye at 7:38 AM on May 26, 2022 [35 favorites]
I agree with everyone saying saying to lie/change the name of your wifi.
But I think you also need to have a talk with the co-housing mediation committee. Because as you've indicated, the potential implications of this are not limited to wifi. If the mediation committee isn't on your side, then I'd take your lease or deed to a lawyer to get their take on how much you actually need to listen to them in this case.
posted by coffeecat at 7:38 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
But I think you also need to have a talk with the co-housing mediation committee. Because as you've indicated, the potential implications of this are not limited to wifi. If the mediation committee isn't on your side, then I'd take your lease or deed to a lawyer to get their take on how much you actually need to listen to them in this case.
posted by coffeecat at 7:38 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
OH as I advocate for lying, I want to also add: I have painful chronic illnesses that do not get nearly such kind regard by the people I live around as the former resident gave your neighbor, so if this person's delusion get's support from your cohousing I will NOT feel it is any sort of symbolic win for spoonies, but that as always society will never give the help that's actually needed, again. Your neighbor has a mental illness that needs care, and your empathy in that regard is right, and neighborly support can even be given without capitulating to these demands if you really want, but supporting their delusion to your detriment isn't actually good for their mental health.
So like I said. Lie, follow the SSID advice being given. This is what you should do, I believe, ethically, and practically.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
So like I said. Lie, follow the SSID advice being given. This is what you should do, I believe, ethically, and practically.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
completely disengage
Not possible in a cohousing community. Living in cohousing means negotiating a resolution to conflicts, however unfounded the reason for the conflicts, with fellow residents of the community. OP, OP's wife and their roommate committed to this concept when they moved there.
A tangentially related example: I served on a nonprofit board that operated by consensus. We all agreed on a proposal, or it didn't move forward. Period. There were times when it got on my nerves, but I knew what I was getting into and that this wasn't a majority-rule organization.
posted by virago at 7:44 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Not possible in a cohousing community. Living in cohousing means negotiating a resolution to conflicts, however unfounded the reason for the conflicts, with fellow residents of the community. OP, OP's wife and their roommate committed to this concept when they moved there.
A tangentially related example: I served on a nonprofit board that operated by consensus. We all agreed on a proposal, or it didn't move forward. Period. There were times when it got on my nerves, but I knew what I was getting into and that this wasn't a majority-rule organization.
posted by virago at 7:44 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Stop disclosing your information to this person. She doesn't need to know where your office is located in your home, that you have a baby monitor, that you don't have ethernet... just talk about the weather and excuse yourself. Do not invite her over. If she corners you, just tell her what will ease her fears. Honesty is an admirable trait, but it's not always safe or helpful. You need to protect yourself and your family, so lie away.
posted by Stoof at 7:48 AM on May 26, 2022 [49 favorites]
posted by Stoof at 7:48 AM on May 26, 2022 [49 favorites]
Someone who is afraid of wifi signals coming into their home is not necessarily mentally ill any more than someone who refuses to get a vaccine (ask me how I know). Some people are just very gullible and spend too much time reading questionable shit on the internet. Framing this as a mental health issue might be over complicating things.
posted by cakelite at 7:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [39 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 7:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [39 favorites]
I've worked with people who claim to have EHS sensitivity, and who have found medical professionals willing to write them work from home accommodations so they don't have to deal with work wifi, etc. I'm not here to opine on whether it exists: that's well outside my field, and likely outside the fields of everyone in this thread who is mocking her - your ableism is showing.
In real terms, it's fine for her to not have wifi, or electricity, or whatever it is in her own home, but it's not fine for her to expect you or other neighbors to not have it in yours - the demands of modern life mean wifi for most of us, and like you noted, you're going to have a baby soon and will need to have a baby monitor, you could have other issues that require you to have wifi. If she can't handle living in this kind of close proximity to others, she will need to move to a single-occupancy home, possibly in a rural area, where no one is close enough for this. The prior residents' willingness to accommodate her is not technically your problem if it wasn't written into the lease.
In real terms, I think that your best option is the simple "I'm sorry, that won't be possible" or "I'm sorry, this is not part of our lease agreement and it is not practical for us to do this" or just lying to her and telling her what she wants to hear - judge the situation for yourself, but get your housemates on the same page so that you're all telling her the same thing.
The smartass in me wants to tell you to say "we can discuss this as soon as you are fully vaccinated" but that's not going to lower the temperature and she may have a legitimate medical reason not to be vaccinated that you don't know about - it sounds like she has a lot going on, and EHS sensitivity tends to go with other health concerns, even if only because of the stress and isolation associated with it. The other thing I would do here is keep a record of her messages, because this unfortunately has the potential to turn into a harassment situation.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [21 favorites]
In real terms, it's fine for her to not have wifi, or electricity, or whatever it is in her own home, but it's not fine for her to expect you or other neighbors to not have it in yours - the demands of modern life mean wifi for most of us, and like you noted, you're going to have a baby soon and will need to have a baby monitor, you could have other issues that require you to have wifi. If she can't handle living in this kind of close proximity to others, she will need to move to a single-occupancy home, possibly in a rural area, where no one is close enough for this. The prior residents' willingness to accommodate her is not technically your problem if it wasn't written into the lease.
In real terms, I think that your best option is the simple "I'm sorry, that won't be possible" or "I'm sorry, this is not part of our lease agreement and it is not practical for us to do this" or just lying to her and telling her what she wants to hear - judge the situation for yourself, but get your housemates on the same page so that you're all telling her the same thing.
The smartass in me wants to tell you to say "we can discuss this as soon as you are fully vaccinated" but that's not going to lower the temperature and she may have a legitimate medical reason not to be vaccinated that you don't know about - it sounds like she has a lot going on, and EHS sensitivity tends to go with other health concerns, even if only because of the stress and isolation associated with it. The other thing I would do here is keep a record of her messages, because this unfortunately has the potential to turn into a harassment situation.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [21 favorites]
I am not making fun of mental illness generally, but I am making fun of someone who feels entitled to have you, specifically, rearrange your life -- when the same factor they object to is flooding in, day and night, from multiple sources on every side. Are they only asking you because you're closest?
If your deed/lease/agreement requires you to engage then you have to. But in your place I would say that other emitters are a bigger source, and your neighbor needs to engage with them, too, and not just you. "Call me when the electric company replaces your meter, which is also against the side of your house," for example.
And on a different note, if any of your work hardware doesn't have an Ethernet port, I would use that as a basis to decline to accede to her demands.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
If your deed/lease/agreement requires you to engage then you have to. But in your place I would say that other emitters are a bigger source, and your neighbor needs to engage with them, too, and not just you. "Call me when the electric company replaces your meter, which is also against the side of your house," for example.
And on a different note, if any of your work hardware doesn't have an Ethernet port, I would use that as a basis to decline to accede to her demands.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Devil's advocate: there is an entry on this condition with the World Health Organization. They advise physicians to treat the symptoms and in the article WHO classifies the symptoms as real, even if they cannot be conclusively linked to EMF.
I am sure that the idea this is bullshit is influencing your perspective. I wonder, if it turns out this is a valid but poorly understood problem, would you feel differently? Because it appears that there is a potential that it is real, but poorly understood.
So this is a belief system clash, and it's fueling your anger. Understandable. But just because you think you're right, doesn't necessarily mean you are.
I'm not sure I understand why installing Ethernet cables is such a problem if you don't have to pay for it or do the manual labor. You just have to deal with a few hours of strangers in your unit and maybe some noise, correct? Again, your belief that your neighbor is nuts and your self-righteousness are making you unwilling to do what is honestly not really that huge of an adjustment is it? (It is not reasonable to ask you to forego a baby monitor. I am with you there. But certainly you could consider compromising to use Ethernet for most other purposes. It's faster anyway.)
You could also ask your neighbor to make use of earthing products, which work well for some individuals that experience this type of alleged hypersensitivity. They can even buy bedsheets, pillow cases, etc. Source and source
Here is a somewhat old paper that gets into the science of earthing, the measurable benefits and changes in the body's experience of electrical fields from the environment. Earthing sounds whack, but it actually has measurable effects, including parasympathetic nervous system activation, reported physical pain reduction, etc.
But as far as the current conversation is concerned: "This study demonstrates that grounding essentially eliminates the ambient voltage induced on the body from common electricity power sources."
Electrolytes, thyroid hormone levels, glucose levels, and even immune response to immunizations improved with grounding. Source
Tl;Dr just because the condition is controversial and poorly understood doesn't mean it's bogus. Many conditions that appear initially to be bullshit turn out later to have some merit to them. Your beliefs are feeding your self righteous anger which is (understandably) making it more difficult to have any empathy. And, there is a measurable benefit to earthing/grounding that suggests it can help with exactly what your neighbor is complaining about. They should be willing to adjust their own environment to accommodate their needs as much as (or more than) they are asking you to do that. Suggest that they get these products as a supplemental support for their issues.
posted by crunchy potato at 7:59 AM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
I am sure that the idea this is bullshit is influencing your perspective. I wonder, if it turns out this is a valid but poorly understood problem, would you feel differently? Because it appears that there is a potential that it is real, but poorly understood.
So this is a belief system clash, and it's fueling your anger. Understandable. But just because you think you're right, doesn't necessarily mean you are.
I'm not sure I understand why installing Ethernet cables is such a problem if you don't have to pay for it or do the manual labor. You just have to deal with a few hours of strangers in your unit and maybe some noise, correct? Again, your belief that your neighbor is nuts and your self-righteousness are making you unwilling to do what is honestly not really that huge of an adjustment is it? (It is not reasonable to ask you to forego a baby monitor. I am with you there. But certainly you could consider compromising to use Ethernet for most other purposes. It's faster anyway.)
You could also ask your neighbor to make use of earthing products, which work well for some individuals that experience this type of alleged hypersensitivity. They can even buy bedsheets, pillow cases, etc. Source and source
Here is a somewhat old paper that gets into the science of earthing, the measurable benefits and changes in the body's experience of electrical fields from the environment. Earthing sounds whack, but it actually has measurable effects, including parasympathetic nervous system activation, reported physical pain reduction, etc.
But as far as the current conversation is concerned: "This study demonstrates that grounding essentially eliminates the ambient voltage induced on the body from common electricity power sources."
Electrolytes, thyroid hormone levels, glucose levels, and even immune response to immunizations improved with grounding. Source
Tl;Dr just because the condition is controversial and poorly understood doesn't mean it's bogus. Many conditions that appear initially to be bullshit turn out later to have some merit to them. Your beliefs are feeding your self righteous anger which is (understandably) making it more difficult to have any empathy. And, there is a measurable benefit to earthing/grounding that suggests it can help with exactly what your neighbor is complaining about. They should be willing to adjust their own environment to accommodate their needs as much as (or more than) they are asking you to do that. Suggest that they get these products as a supplemental support for their issues.
posted by crunchy potato at 7:59 AM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
I am taking a gigantic risk posting this and I would like to remind my fellow MeFites of the guideline not to engage other respondents to a question. I am desperately ill with myalgic encephalomyelitis, and part of is that any emotional or physical stress can dramatically worsen the illness. Do not respond to this comment in any way.
I have severe myalgic encephalomyelitis, which includes cardiac dysfunction. I have been bedridden because of it since 2007. Part of dealing with ME is tracking one's vitals to stay out of payback/post-exertional malaise. We discovered by accident that our WiFi was affecting me. Our internet went out one night, and the next morning when I woke up, before we discovered it was out, I found my heart rate was ten points lower than usual - in a normal range instead of in a problematic one. We converted to ethernet cables and I had my spouse test toggling the WiFi blind for me over weeks and the effect held.
Sensing this was an issue, we decided to paint my bedroom and the floor beneath it with Y-shield and shield the windows with EMF-blocking window film. This has helped, but it's made it clear that there is a real issue for me. I used to alternate between my bedroom and a dayroom, but since we shielded my bedroom, every time I try to spend the day in the dayroom, at the end of the day my heart rate is up from where it should be. We haven't been able to shield the dayroom yet - it's a significant undertaking given that my spouse is working full time and my caregiver down to needing to help me bathe.
It sucks to have this kind of sensitivity and have it be constantly written off. I have been able to feel the tissue heating in an MRI - can feel where the beams are and had it confirmed by the MRI techs while it was happening. Tried to wear my cell phone on my person when I first got it and though the phone itself was cool, could feel a local heating effect from it. Can't be around some high-voltage appliances because they give me a buzzy feeling. I hate it and I wish it weren't so, because I already have an illness that has unjustly had to fight its way into recognition over decades, and this thing is way behind that in understanding.
posted by jocelmeow at 8:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [34 favorites]
I have severe myalgic encephalomyelitis, which includes cardiac dysfunction. I have been bedridden because of it since 2007. Part of dealing with ME is tracking one's vitals to stay out of payback/post-exertional malaise. We discovered by accident that our WiFi was affecting me. Our internet went out one night, and the next morning when I woke up, before we discovered it was out, I found my heart rate was ten points lower than usual - in a normal range instead of in a problematic one. We converted to ethernet cables and I had my spouse test toggling the WiFi blind for me over weeks and the effect held.
Sensing this was an issue, we decided to paint my bedroom and the floor beneath it with Y-shield and shield the windows with EMF-blocking window film. This has helped, but it's made it clear that there is a real issue for me. I used to alternate between my bedroom and a dayroom, but since we shielded my bedroom, every time I try to spend the day in the dayroom, at the end of the day my heart rate is up from where it should be. We haven't been able to shield the dayroom yet - it's a significant undertaking given that my spouse is working full time and my caregiver down to needing to help me bathe.
It sucks to have this kind of sensitivity and have it be constantly written off. I have been able to feel the tissue heating in an MRI - can feel where the beams are and had it confirmed by the MRI techs while it was happening. Tried to wear my cell phone on my person when I first got it and though the phone itself was cool, could feel a local heating effect from it. Can't be around some high-voltage appliances because they give me a buzzy feeling. I hate it and I wish it weren't so, because I already have an illness that has unjustly had to fight its way into recognition over decades, and this thing is way behind that in understanding.
posted by jocelmeow at 8:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [34 favorites]
Her problem is not yours to solve. You are breaking no rules. She needs to address this on a larger scale rather than directly with you. Meeting her demands is not going to help her; not meeting her demands is not going to make her worse. Change and hide your network name. Don't play her game. Don't engage. You'll never win with her. Avoid her as much as possible. If you must converse, keep your conversations as brief and superficial as possible. In fact, you have no obligation to speak to her at all; you definitely have every right to completely ignore her. If she wants friends, she can find them elsewhere. There is nothing you can do to help her. You owe her nothing (other than to call for help if you ever see that she is in physical danger).
posted by SageTrail at 8:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by SageTrail at 8:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Alternatively can you approach the cohousing committee about what sounds like is beginning to border on harassment? Escalation isn't always useful but this is clearly affecting your quality of life and causing you stress. Is there any version of a do not contact arrangement in a living situation like this?
posted by Ferreous at 8:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 8:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just weighing in on the clinical aspects of this, there's still no agreed upon approach to all of this. crunchy potato, as the WHO link points out, their "entry" is very specifically not a diagnosis. It's a description of a collection of signs and symptoms that are asserted to group together.
OP, I would encourage you to turn over the discussion of whther or not this is a clinically relevant situation to the gods. The larger point of contention for the mediation committee is--I would imagine--if it is reasonable to have expectations about control over neighbors' EM radiation profiles when living in a cohousing community. I would assert that this is an unreasonable expectation, one for which the proposed resolution(s) offer no clear rememdy to the purported causes of your neighbor's ill health. I'm curious about how the mediation has gone so far--has this specific issue come up? Has the mediation process led to an understanding of what options are on the table?
That WHO link may be helpful as a resource to share in mediation, specifically the conclusions that are directed toward physicians. It specifically advises against focusing on "the person's perceived need for reducing or eliminating EMF in the workplace or home" as a strategy to improve their health.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 8:20 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
OP, I would encourage you to turn over the discussion of whther or not this is a clinically relevant situation to the gods. The larger point of contention for the mediation committee is--I would imagine--if it is reasonable to have expectations about control over neighbors' EM radiation profiles when living in a cohousing community. I would assert that this is an unreasonable expectation, one for which the proposed resolution(s) offer no clear rememdy to the purported causes of your neighbor's ill health. I'm curious about how the mediation has gone so far--has this specific issue come up? Has the mediation process led to an understanding of what options are on the table?
That WHO link may be helpful as a resource to share in mediation, specifically the conclusions that are directed toward physicians. It specifically advises against focusing on "the person's perceived need for reducing or eliminating EMF in the workplace or home" as a strategy to improve their health.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 8:20 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
So not to abuse the edit window, my suggestion, in response to the request for you to use ethernet cables, would be to aid the neighbor in setting up shielding on your shared walls. You might pay for the Y-shield paint and the grounding equipment as a gesture of goodwill, with the assumption that that will attenuate the signal enough that you will be able to use WiFi. If the neighbor can afford to pay to have it applied, great; if not, if you can do so and thus purchase for yourself the convenience of then being able to use WiFi, perhaps you would consider that a worthwhile exchange.
posted by jocelmeow at 8:21 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by jocelmeow at 8:21 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Devil's advocate again: EHS might be bullshit, but if it's not, then lying that you have made modifications you didn't actually make just to keep the peace would be pretty unethical. That would be akin to telling someone allergic to shellfish there's no shrimp in the soup, when there actually is.
Since there is really no conclusive information about it, I would strongly recommend against doing something that is unethical at best, willfully negligent at worst, in the event that her experience is actually valid.
posted by crunchy potato at 8:21 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Since there is really no conclusive information about it, I would strongly recommend against doing something that is unethical at best, willfully negligent at worst, in the event that her experience is actually valid.
posted by crunchy potato at 8:21 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Yeah, you shouldn't lie.
But there's really no way to exclude all RF radiation from a place, outside of enormous shielding and isolation (in the sense of "house in the middle of acres of open space"). And those kinds of efforts don't seem to fit the definition of co-housing.
Honestly, this isn't analogous to a "dark skies" area where one streetlamp ruins everyone's astrophotography, or eating nuts on a plane, it's closer to her blaming your use of a car for global warming. This isn't a point problem where you're the only cause -- it's epidemic.
Unfortunately, a lot of this conversation would be mooted by us knowing more about your contractual rights & obligations, and the physical enviornment there.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:29 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
But there's really no way to exclude all RF radiation from a place, outside of enormous shielding and isolation (in the sense of "house in the middle of acres of open space"). And those kinds of efforts don't seem to fit the definition of co-housing.
Honestly, this isn't analogous to a "dark skies" area where one streetlamp ruins everyone's astrophotography, or eating nuts on a plane, it's closer to her blaming your use of a car for global warming. This isn't a point problem where you're the only cause -- it's epidemic.
Unfortunately, a lot of this conversation would be mooted by us knowing more about your contractual rights & obligations, and the physical enviornment there.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:29 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Although this won’t solve your immediate problem, if you want a curious and closer look at the folks who believe they suffer from electromagnetic hypersensitivity (and the steps they’ve taken to alleviate their symptoms coupled with the impacts those steps have taken on a community), I just finished reading Stephen Kurczy‘s The Quiet Zone, and it was fascinating. Highly recommend.
posted by pinkacademic at 8:43 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by pinkacademic at 8:43 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
The best approach depends entirely on the views of the rest of community and specifically the cohousing mediation committee. However annoyed you are with her request, if the committee is conflict averse then you will do better to appear to be amenable to compromise. They will probably not going to put themselves in your shoes very effectively. So, the trick would be to find a compromise action that causes you the least inconvenience.
I think that on top of this, you should probably rename your wifi, and not mention to her any other EMF-related equipment that you might have or get in the future.
If this is causing her a genuine problem, then ultimately living in close proximity to neighbours is just not going to work for her. But ensuring that the rest of the community don't also think that you are problematic / causing conflict is going to be better for you.
posted by plonkee at 8:50 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think that on top of this, you should probably rename your wifi, and not mention to her any other EMF-related equipment that you might have or get in the future.
If this is causing her a genuine problem, then ultimately living in close proximity to neighbours is just not going to work for her. But ensuring that the rest of the community don't also think that you are problematic / causing conflict is going to be better for you.
posted by plonkee at 8:50 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Suggest instead of the CAT5/6 cabling that she purchase some tin foil blankets for the common wall. It should be her obligation to stop the wifi from coming into her home. I used to have these foil type blankets to keep the cats off the couch. They exist. Or one of those space blankets you get at the end of a marathon (never got one myself).
In mediation, explain that mediation does not mean compromise necessarily. I would not lie. I just would not comply. They have no way of enforcing this. I set up a hotspot from my phone all the time. How does she know you are doing this? Maybe I am not cut out for cohousing, but I would have no tolerance for this.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
In mediation, explain that mediation does not mean compromise necessarily. I would not lie. I just would not comply. They have no way of enforcing this. I set up a hotspot from my phone all the time. How does she know you are doing this? Maybe I am not cut out for cohousing, but I would have no tolerance for this.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
An anecdote: I saw an allergist specializing in immunology shortly after moving because I kept getting hives. Daily. No new soaps, medications, foods. I have multiple autoimmune conditions, one of which began with hives before it settled into regular bouts of purpura,but my rheumatologist told me the hives were not coming from that.
I would also have these intense anxiety/agitation attacks right before the hives appeared, with absolutely nothing in my mind or environment triggering that anxiety. Turns out that the body process that releases cytokines also releases adrenaline.
I was probably experiencing the moment of increased inflammatory response in a way that manifested as emotional but was actually physiological. (A lot of what we thought we knew about mental illness turns out to be related to inflammation, and has a physiological source independent of the neurotransmitter argument.)
Long story short, they did a bunch of tests and could not find the cause. I saw the immunologist for help to rule out Mast Cell Activation Syndrome which multiple people in my autoimmune support group suggested I might have when I complained of this recurring idiopathic urticaria.
Shortly after that I started working from home and the hives stopped. Whenever I have to go to the office, there's a 50/50 chance I will have an episode of this. Apparently I am allergic to being in a corporate environment. I could work with the florescent lights off, nobody with perfume anywhere near me, nobody using cleaning products while I'm there, and still for whatever reason my body freaks out.
I bring that up as an example of the body reacting weirdly to the environment without a clear reason, as well as to point out that MCAS sure sounds like some bullshit totally in someone's head when you read about it. It's easy to see the symptoms and write it off as simple anxiety, or whatever. When you read about It or hear people describe the experience they sound like nut jobs.
Kind of like they said fibromyalgia was really just psychological. And, hmm, most conditions that effect women disproportionately, that cause weird reactions not easily explained by existing knowledge. POTS is another example of a condition that mostly effects women, that is not easily diagnosed because the symptoms are weird and often assumed to be psychosomatic. Also see Ehlers Danlos Syndrome.
You'd think by now we would collectively learn to withhold judgment about weird health issues, since we see over and over that the dismissiveness or assumption of a purely psychiatric cause is often wrong.
posted by crunchy potato at 8:59 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
I would also have these intense anxiety/agitation attacks right before the hives appeared, with absolutely nothing in my mind or environment triggering that anxiety. Turns out that the body process that releases cytokines also releases adrenaline.
I was probably experiencing the moment of increased inflammatory response in a way that manifested as emotional but was actually physiological. (A lot of what we thought we knew about mental illness turns out to be related to inflammation, and has a physiological source independent of the neurotransmitter argument.)
Long story short, they did a bunch of tests and could not find the cause. I saw the immunologist for help to rule out Mast Cell Activation Syndrome which multiple people in my autoimmune support group suggested I might have when I complained of this recurring idiopathic urticaria.
Shortly after that I started working from home and the hives stopped. Whenever I have to go to the office, there's a 50/50 chance I will have an episode of this. Apparently I am allergic to being in a corporate environment. I could work with the florescent lights off, nobody with perfume anywhere near me, nobody using cleaning products while I'm there, and still for whatever reason my body freaks out.
I bring that up as an example of the body reacting weirdly to the environment without a clear reason, as well as to point out that MCAS sure sounds like some bullshit totally in someone's head when you read about it. It's easy to see the symptoms and write it off as simple anxiety, or whatever. When you read about It or hear people describe the experience they sound like nut jobs.
Kind of like they said fibromyalgia was really just psychological. And, hmm, most conditions that effect women disproportionately, that cause weird reactions not easily explained by existing knowledge. POTS is another example of a condition that mostly effects women, that is not easily diagnosed because the symptoms are weird and often assumed to be psychosomatic. Also see Ehlers Danlos Syndrome.
You'd think by now we would collectively learn to withhold judgment about weird health issues, since we see over and over that the dismissiveness or assumption of a purely psychiatric cause is often wrong.
posted by crunchy potato at 8:59 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
Go here https://nutsaboutnets.com/free-tools/netsurveyor-802-11-network-discovery-wi-fi-scanner/, download, read the instructions, run a scan for 5 minutes, and print it out.
I used this tool at work quarterly to scan for unauthorized wifi. The building I work in has several other businesses, and we get strong signals. It's 100 feet from an apartment complex. If I let it go for 5 minutes, I see literally hundreds of wifi SSIDs. I also find wifi signals from a hotel 3 blocks away.
Show the mediator the report and explain that it is simply unreasonable to accomodate this request because 1. EHS is not accepted as real in any medical literature and 2 - infinity, all the other reasons you outlined.
posted by talex at 9:13 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
I used this tool at work quarterly to scan for unauthorized wifi. The building I work in has several other businesses, and we get strong signals. It's 100 feet from an apartment complex. If I let it go for 5 minutes, I see literally hundreds of wifi SSIDs. I also find wifi signals from a hotel 3 blocks away.
Show the mediator the report and explain that it is simply unreasonable to accomodate this request because 1. EHS is not accepted as real in any medical literature and 2 - infinity, all the other reasons you outlined.
posted by talex at 9:13 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
In a situation like this my mantra would be "just the facts, ma'am."
Nothing about vaccination, what you personally think about EHS, future baby monitors, elaborate explanations why you can't do what she's asking, or anything emotional or not directly related to the exact thing the meeting is about.
Only: here's what our lease does/doesn't say we're responsible for, here's what we've been doing so far as a courtesy only, here's what we are/aren't willing to try going forward, making no firm promises.
I also agree it's best NOT to lie, especially in any sort of official meeting. I would still look into hiding my wifi anyway. Even if you say clearly you're not willing to turn it off, she may be less agitated in the future if she can't see your wifi pop up on her own devices.
posted by lampoil at 9:27 AM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
Nothing about vaccination, what you personally think about EHS, future baby monitors, elaborate explanations why you can't do what she's asking, or anything emotional or not directly related to the exact thing the meeting is about.
Only: here's what our lease does/doesn't say we're responsible for, here's what we've been doing so far as a courtesy only, here's what we are/aren't willing to try going forward, making no firm promises.
I also agree it's best NOT to lie, especially in any sort of official meeting. I would still look into hiding my wifi anyway. Even if you say clearly you're not willing to turn it off, she may be less agitated in the future if she can't see your wifi pop up on her own devices.
posted by lampoil at 9:27 AM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
Agree your neighbor is mentally ill.
That being said, if you want to do a technical compromise that's actually win-win, do this:
* run ethernet to each room from a central point which is a PoE hub
* in each room, install a small PoE wifi access point, set to 5Ghz only, and set to the lowest power possible, each on a different channel
* turn off 2.4GHz entirely.
You will end up with amazingly good WiFi that will barely penetrate your walls.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 9:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
That being said, if you want to do a technical compromise that's actually win-win, do this:
* run ethernet to each room from a central point which is a PoE hub
* in each room, install a small PoE wifi access point, set to 5Ghz only, and set to the lowest power possible, each on a different channel
* turn off 2.4GHz entirely.
You will end up with amazingly good WiFi that will barely penetrate your walls.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 9:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Between the baby monitor and whatever need you, your wife, and your roommate have to be able to work from home, this is not an accommodation you can make without facing an unreasonable burden. Cell phones also radiate electromagnetic energy. Microwaves too. The motors in your appliances induce RF. Got any electronic devices with batteries that charge wirelessly, via induction (not just your phone or an Apple Watch, but even something like my electric toothbrush)? Your computer and TV emit coincidental RF energy. It's unavoidable. I don't think it's possible to live among regular, connected society at this point without the intrusion of electromagnetic radiation except in very controlled circumstances like the National Radio Quiet Zone. I'd just say this is an unreasonable burden in this the year 2022 and you'll be unable to accommodate it.
posted by fedward at 9:29 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by fedward at 9:29 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Whether or not electromagnetic hypersensitivity is real, whether or not your neighbor suffers from EHS and whether or not your wifi could affect your neighbor's purported EHS are rather beside the point. Wifi is a normal everyday thing in modern life that you have every right to expect you can deploy and use in a normal everyday fashion within your home. If your neighbor genuinely suffers from exposure to wifi, it is incumbent upon her to take measures to mitigate that exposure up to and including relocating to someplace without EMFs and/or deploying some kind of shielding.
Also, just out of curiosity, how does this person even know that your wifi is on?
posted by slkinsey at 9:33 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Also, just out of curiosity, how does this person even know that your wifi is on?
posted by slkinsey at 9:33 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Sorry to make a second comment. I do not think this is analogous to eating nuts on a plane, or telling someone with food allergies that a food is safe for them when you know it isn't. This is more like being a smoker with a neighbor who is sensitive to tobacco and wants you to stop smoking in your home when your lease allows that - you're not doing something wrong but it can still be a problem for this person, and while it would be kind of you to help her manage her disability, it is not required of you (I have food allergies and am massively intolerant to tobacco smoke, hence the examples). So - my advice above is for dealing with this as a neighbor issue, and with an eye to potential escalation on her part. While I do think lying to her falls somewhere between unkind and gaslighting, you're the one who has to live next to her.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:38 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bile and syntax at 9:38 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I would be completely furious that she was disrupting my life this way and would not do anything to accommodate her, full stop. If she’s so bothered by other people merely minding their business and going about their lives, let her go off the grid and move to a single-family home.
posted by holborne at 9:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by holborne at 9:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [17 favorites]
Yeah, I generally concur that it's unreasonable to expect normal activities to be curtailed to appease a neighbor, regardless of whether EHS exists or not. This isn't like you moved into an apartment complex and started raising skunks or processing uranium ore, this is something totally normal in society and you would literally be a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the EMF noise pouring through the area 24/7.
posted by Ferreous at 9:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 9:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
All the talk about whether EHS is real or not is missing the point. You can easily reframe the question as something less hot-button than EHS. The was a recent Ask about sound between neighboring units, for example. Scent is another example. Or maybe the neighbor doesn't like it when the OP says the word "moist". Masking in common areas. It doesn't matter. What matters, in this particular situation, is that there's a mediation board. They're presumably working off some sort of bylaws and will decide based on what's in those bylaws, and it doesn't matter if any of us think their decision is reasonable or not, because the OP has submitted to their jurisdiction.
OP, the real issue here is ensuring that your neighbor complies with the mediation board's decision. That is, regardless of whether they require you to install ethernet cables or whatever, the discussion ends there. Make it clear that you will accept their decision, but also make it clear that your neighbor must as well. Ask about recourse for if the neighbor keeps making these requests, and procedures for adding new hardware (e.g. the baby monitor, but don't mention it specifically) in the future. And then, depending on the answers, decide whether you can continue living in this cohousing environment.
Because let me tell you, the baby monitor will be the least of your worries. Your kid will quickly accumulate hundreds of toys emitting varying degrees of electricity, including some that will use wifi. Wifi is only going to become a bigger part of life going forward. If the mediation board requires you to notify either them or your neighbor every time you bring something new into the house, that's quickly going to become untenable.
The mediation meeting is tomorrow. You only have to make it until then. Do something to take your mind off it today. Then hopefully after the meeting, you never have to think about it again.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:47 AM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
OP, the real issue here is ensuring that your neighbor complies with the mediation board's decision. That is, regardless of whether they require you to install ethernet cables or whatever, the discussion ends there. Make it clear that you will accept their decision, but also make it clear that your neighbor must as well. Ask about recourse for if the neighbor keeps making these requests, and procedures for adding new hardware (e.g. the baby monitor, but don't mention it specifically) in the future. And then, depending on the answers, decide whether you can continue living in this cohousing environment.
Because let me tell you, the baby monitor will be the least of your worries. Your kid will quickly accumulate hundreds of toys emitting varying degrees of electricity, including some that will use wifi. Wifi is only going to become a bigger part of life going forward. If the mediation board requires you to notify either them or your neighbor every time you bring something new into the house, that's quickly going to become untenable.
The mediation meeting is tomorrow. You only have to make it until then. Do something to take your mind off it today. Then hopefully after the meeting, you never have to think about it again.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:47 AM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
Do you have to go to the mediation session? I would cancel if possible. Entering into a two-sided mediation implies that you accept she actually has a legitimate position, which she does not.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
This is talking about a form of intentional community, most of which have mediation required for the lease/purchase. They can be like living under an obnoxious HOA.
posted by Candleman at 10:25 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 10:25 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
It doesn't matter whether this is a "real" condition or not. I doubt it, personally, but I'm comfortable with the fact that _I DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE_ and neither do you or anybody else.
That doesn't mean you can't use a baby monitor. It just means that this is a hard situation that requires you to be clever and patient and to ask your other neighbors for help in finding a solution that will work for you.
This is that woman's home. Your WiFi (and yes, other signals) are passing into her home (just like my WiFi is passing into my neighbors' homes, and theirs into mine). Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's not an imposition -- a person should have safety, and a sense of safety, in their own home, as much as practical. That's going to be inconvenient for others -- and that inconvenience matters too.
Everyone's needs need to be balanced here, in the absence of 100% certainty. Her needs are are a pain, yes, and maybe she doesn't 100% know that WiFi is the cause -- but the consequences are so severe for her that she's willing to risk looking like a fool because, really, if she's in pain, there's no alternative for her.
posted by amtho at 10:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
That doesn't mean you can't use a baby monitor. It just means that this is a hard situation that requires you to be clever and patient and to ask your other neighbors for help in finding a solution that will work for you.
This is that woman's home. Your WiFi (and yes, other signals) are passing into her home (just like my WiFi is passing into my neighbors' homes, and theirs into mine). Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's not an imposition -- a person should have safety, and a sense of safety, in their own home, as much as practical. That's going to be inconvenient for others -- and that inconvenience matters too.
Everyone's needs need to be balanced here, in the absence of 100% certainty. Her needs are are a pain, yes, and maybe she doesn't 100% know that WiFi is the cause -- but the consequences are so severe for her that she's willing to risk looking like a fool because, really, if she's in pain, there's no alternative for her.
posted by amtho at 10:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
https://www.osha.gov/radiofrequency-and-microwave-radiation/exposure-evaluation
A decent place to start for the curious but skeptical. There are plenty of hacks out there willing to monetize the way people mysticize the unseen/misunderstood, as with Morgellon’s. The kind of conspiracy that would be required to cover this up would be at the level of a supernatural force. Maybe that’s happening! But this is a ridiculous accommodation to expect from a neighbor. They can chickenwire their own windows if they need to block RF. Or move to a place with old school plaster, where the faraday cage is built in.
A legit RF detector costs a decent amount of money - I too am curious about how they’re detecting your Wi-Fi.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
A decent place to start for the curious but skeptical. There are plenty of hacks out there willing to monetize the way people mysticize the unseen/misunderstood, as with Morgellon’s. The kind of conspiracy that would be required to cover this up would be at the level of a supernatural force. Maybe that’s happening! But this is a ridiculous accommodation to expect from a neighbor. They can chickenwire their own windows if they need to block RF. Or move to a place with old school plaster, where the faraday cage is built in.
A legit RF detector costs a decent amount of money - I too am curious about how they’re detecting your Wi-Fi.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
I’m a compromiser/peace-keeper, but this is going to be one of those rare true “give an inch, they’ll take a mile” situations. So I would not give an inch. And yes, I’d lie if I had to.
This isn’t something the community should even LET her ask. Put this on them. If I wanted a million dollars from my neighbor, my landlord wouldn’t say “that’s nuts but I’ll ask them if they will give you $500k.”
posted by kapers at 10:42 AM on May 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
This isn’t something the community should even LET her ask. Put this on them. If I wanted a million dollars from my neighbor, my landlord wouldn’t say “that’s nuts but I’ll ask them if they will give you $500k.”
posted by kapers at 10:42 AM on May 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
Everyone's needs need to be balanced here, in the absence of 100% certainty.
That's not actually how it works when your counterparty is mentally ill or otherwise erratic, or just has very poor boundaries. You can only balance everyone's needs if everyone is playing by the same rules. OP does not need to start from the premise that wi-fi is the same as, say, a loud noise emanating from her apartment.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [21 favorites]
That's not actually how it works when your counterparty is mentally ill or otherwise erratic, or just has very poor boundaries. You can only balance everyone's needs if everyone is playing by the same rules. OP does not need to start from the premise that wi-fi is the same as, say, a loud noise emanating from her apartment.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [21 favorites]
This isn’t something the community should even LET her ask. Put this on them.
So true. Letting this neighbor use the mediation committee to further her delusions is not a good cohousing practice. The mediation committee should have some sort of screening mechanism.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:58 AM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
So true. Letting this neighbor use the mediation committee to further her delusions is not a good cohousing practice. The mediation committee should have some sort of screening mechanism.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:58 AM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
Whether this condition is real, there are actions that she can take to block her exposure to the electromagnetic spectrum, as has been thoroughly detailed on this thread. It is her responsibility to take those actions, and if she has not yet done so then she should not be imposing upon you to alter your living arrangement.
posted by kingdead at 11:00 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 11:00 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
I think one point to take into account with regards to the morality/potential harm of your actions here: even if you had no wifi in your apartment this neighbor would still be subjected to a significant amount of those kind of signals from other neighbors and society in general.
OP has no ability to prevent that through any of their actions, home wifi or otherwise, so the question of "is EHS real" doesn't even weigh into the equation to my mind.
posted by Jarcat at 11:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
OP has no ability to prevent that through any of their actions, home wifi or otherwise, so the question of "is EHS real" doesn't even weigh into the equation to my mind.
posted by Jarcat at 11:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
I might not outright lie, as I don't like to. I would make the SSID hidden.
I thinks it's unreasonable to ask a neighbor to do this, full stop, and that's what I would say at mediation. I have 2 laptops, a tablet, and 2 phones, plus a power outlet connected to Alexa. I unplugged the alexa, but I like being able to turn on lights when I'm not home. They all use wifi. Most tvs have wifi. Microwaves produce EMF, too. I'd basically reiterate that her requests are not reasonable, and not get into any validity issues.
If somebody else wants to pay to have shielding installed, I'd probably allow it, but only with minimal life disruption. basically, accommodate the needs if it causes you little to no trouble.
I'm biased; most of the people I know who are demanding about scent, meat, very particular health stuff, etc., are kind of bullies about it, requiring that others change behaviors, but seldom willing to alter their behaviors to accommodate others, like masks and vaccines. They are usually quite needy, not my concern, but also not my job to put a lot of effort into. I passionately hate my neighbors' LED lights at night, because I moved here, in part, to see the stars at night, but they're legal.
posted by theora55 at 12:36 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
I thinks it's unreasonable to ask a neighbor to do this, full stop, and that's what I would say at mediation. I have 2 laptops, a tablet, and 2 phones, plus a power outlet connected to Alexa. I unplugged the alexa, but I like being able to turn on lights when I'm not home. They all use wifi. Most tvs have wifi. Microwaves produce EMF, too. I'd basically reiterate that her requests are not reasonable, and not get into any validity issues.
If somebody else wants to pay to have shielding installed, I'd probably allow it, but only with minimal life disruption. basically, accommodate the needs if it causes you little to no trouble.
I'm biased; most of the people I know who are demanding about scent, meat, very particular health stuff, etc., are kind of bullies about it, requiring that others change behaviors, but seldom willing to alter their behaviors to accommodate others, like masks and vaccines. They are usually quite needy, not my concern, but also not my job to put a lot of effort into. I passionately hate my neighbors' LED lights at night, because I moved here, in part, to see the stars at night, but they're legal.
posted by theora55 at 12:36 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
One difficulty the OP may have with "casual mediation" is the tendency of many people who voluntarily do that work to "try to see both sides." They may find that their willingness to be accommodating up to this point will now bite them in the backside. This may be the time to be a bit of a D about it - "not only no, but hell no."
posted by yclipse at 1:14 PM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by yclipse at 1:14 PM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Open your phone's WiFi setting and screenshot the plethora of networks visible. Ask them to come back to you when they've shut every one of those networks down.
As others have said, hiding your own network will remove any plausible reason for them to come after you. You don't need to lie, just ask them which specific network is the one they want you to shut down.
posted by dg at 1:58 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
As others have said, hiding your own network will remove any plausible reason for them to come after you. You don't need to lie, just ask them which specific network is the one they want you to shut down.
posted by dg at 1:58 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
There may be such a disease, but your neighbor probably does not have it, as EM radiation is all around us, and our skin and skull are actually pretty effective blockers.
How accomodating is up to you. As many said, pretty much a polite "eff ewe" should suffice.
If you want to go through the trouble, document the pattern of "demands", then try to schedule a couple "wifi-free" days to coincide with them to "prove" their harassment is without scientific basis, since they harassed you even when your wifi is not on, and then have a lawyer send them a letter warning that further harassment will not be tolerated.
posted by kschang at 1:59 PM on May 26, 2022
How accomodating is up to you. As many said, pretty much a polite "eff ewe" should suffice.
If you want to go through the trouble, document the pattern of "demands", then try to schedule a couple "wifi-free" days to coincide with them to "prove" their harassment is without scientific basis, since they harassed you even when your wifi is not on, and then have a lawyer send them a letter warning that further harassment will not be tolerated.
posted by kschang at 1:59 PM on May 26, 2022
I like the idea of renaming your wifi to something that might lead her to believe you’ve done something. On the other hand...
She’s the one with the problem. Has she done any modifications to her own living space to combat EHS? I think it should be necessary for her to do something on her side of the wall first. When you have your meeting, I would bring up the concept of a Faraday cage, and request she line her side of the shared wall with copper screen first, before you agree to do anything. Put the ball firmly in her court. It might shut her up. Or, she might actually spend the bucks for the screen and believe it works!
posted by Thorzdad at 2:02 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
She’s the one with the problem. Has she done any modifications to her own living space to combat EHS? I think it should be necessary for her to do something on her side of the wall first. When you have your meeting, I would bring up the concept of a Faraday cage, and request she line her side of the shared wall with copper screen first, before you agree to do anything. Put the ball firmly in her court. It might shut her up. Or, she might actually spend the bucks for the screen and believe it works!
posted by Thorzdad at 2:02 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Open your phone's WiFi setting and screenshot the plethora of networks visible
Be sure to use a tool that shows the relative strengths of the different networks.
posted by amtho at 7:56 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Be sure to use a tool that shows the relative strengths of the different networks.
posted by amtho at 7:56 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Whatever you do, and whatever you decide to do in the future, at the mediation session you must remain calm. If you become angry and it devolves into shouting and/or crying (perhaps on her part), your issue will probably not get resolved at the meeting.
Another 'Faraday cage' idea: ask, during the mediation board, whether her side of the common wall could be "insulated" against radio waves. This could entail (I am not an expert so take this as a general idea and not specifically the best way) removing all drywall on her side, stapling aluminum screening to all of the studs, then re-drywalling and painting. Whether she wanted to also do the ceilings in those rooms with the common wall would be up to her. But it does seem that there should be effort on her side.
posted by TimHare at 9:03 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Another 'Faraday cage' idea: ask, during the mediation board, whether her side of the common wall could be "insulated" against radio waves. This could entail (I am not an expert so take this as a general idea and not specifically the best way) removing all drywall on her side, stapling aluminum screening to all of the studs, then re-drywalling and painting. Whether she wanted to also do the ceilings in those rooms with the common wall would be up to her. But it does seem that there should be effort on her side.
posted by TimHare at 9:03 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
If everyone's demands merit equal consideration in this community
The question asked was not "are this person's demands reasonable, and is their affliction grounded in empirical medicine." The question was "how can I navigate this situation so I can live with the outcome", and a lot of the answers - "dismiss this person's concerns, possibly while making fun of them" are going to make the situation actively worse.
posted by mhoye at 7:40 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
The question asked was not "are this person's demands reasonable, and is their affliction grounded in empirical medicine." The question was "how can I navigate this situation so I can live with the outcome", and a lot of the answers - "dismiss this person's concerns, possibly while making fun of them" are going to make the situation actively worse.
posted by mhoye at 7:40 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
I hope you'll come back and update this; I'm wicked curious how it turns out. Thanks.
posted by theora55 at 9:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 9:14 AM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
To be fair, I think dismissing this person's concerns wrt requiring the poster to modify their lives is pretty much the only outcome that seems reasonable for them to live with. Mocking them isn't useful, but setting a precedent in mediation that the EHS neighbor has grounds to force things on them is not a tenable situation.
If you lived in an apartment complex and couldn't deal with any noise, it would be incumbent on you to put in sound proofing, not demand your neighbors modify their lives to placate you.
posted by Ferreous at 10:02 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
If you lived in an apartment complex and couldn't deal with any noise, it would be incumbent on you to put in sound proofing, not demand your neighbors modify their lives to placate you.
posted by Ferreous at 10:02 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Especially since even though the poster has been accommodating their neighbor with wifi placement and turning it off at night the neighbor is still escalating.
posted by Ferreous at 10:08 AM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 10:08 AM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
"dismiss this person's concerns, possibly while making fun of them" are going to make the situation actively worse.
There's no call to be cruel to the neighbor. But engaging in a mediation or discussion where the premise is that she has a valid concern to bring to the forum is not going to make the situation better. When you have a counterparty who is not playing by the same rules, you lose if you try to play the game. This is a huge mistake people make in all sorts of interpersonal contexts. Procedural mechanisms (like mediation) can be abused by people who have the goal of creating confusion, or some other goal other than resolving problems reasonably. This is why, for example, you don't go to couples counseling with an abuser.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:10 AM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
There's no call to be cruel to the neighbor. But engaging in a mediation or discussion where the premise is that she has a valid concern to bring to the forum is not going to make the situation better. When you have a counterparty who is not playing by the same rules, you lose if you try to play the game. This is a huge mistake people make in all sorts of interpersonal contexts. Procedural mechanisms (like mediation) can be abused by people who have the goal of creating confusion, or some other goal other than resolving problems reasonably. This is why, for example, you don't go to couples counseling with an abuser.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:10 AM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Telling the decision makers of the community that this is not a fit topic for mediation is not making fun of the neighbor. I’d be furious if the community saw fit to bring this to my attention at all, let alone bring it to official mediation. If she had a medical doctor’s note I’d play ball. Otherwise this is a waste of resources and a huge imposition on everyone else.
The slippery slope of indulging illegitimate complaints will have a negative impact on everyone in the community. That’s what I’d say and that’s my advice for navigating this. It’s unjust.
posted by kapers at 10:53 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
The slippery slope of indulging illegitimate complaints will have a negative impact on everyone in the community. That’s what I’d say and that’s my advice for navigating this. It’s unjust.
posted by kapers at 10:53 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Someone who is afraid of wifi signals coming into their home is not necessarily mentally ill any more than someone who refuses to get a vaccine (ask me how I know). Some people are just very gullible and spend too much time reading questionable shit on the internet. Framing this as a mental health issue might be over complicating things.
This. I'm tired of "mental illness" becoming a catch-all descriptor for "behavior I consider immoral and/or idiotic." The mentally ill get a bad rap as it is. Please stop adding to it.
posted by Taro at 2:57 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
This. I'm tired of "mental illness" becoming a catch-all descriptor for "behavior I consider immoral and/or idiotic." The mentally ill get a bad rap as it is. Please stop adding to it.
posted by Taro at 2:57 PM on May 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Regardless of the person's mental condition or medical condition, I don't think it's reasonable or feasible to demand that your neighbor not be able to use wi-fi. Even partially isn't great, but I strongly suspect this is heading towards "give her an inch, she'll take a mile" and your not being able to use the wi-fi and/or baby monitor at all (hence why I said previously she probably can't be rational on the topic). If this has been dragging on for months, that's a bad sign. Do we know if she left the previous resident alone once the previous resident followed her demands, or no? Also, how is she able to tell how this is being used?
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:25 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:25 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
How about a blind experiment, to prove to the mediation committee whether her complaint is valid or not? For 20 days, each day you choose randomly whether to have the wifi on or off, via a coin flip observed by one of the mediators. And each day the neighbor must record her guess as to whether the wifi is on or off. If she can tell with 90% reliability, she wins.
Of course this assumes that the neighbor, being avoidant of EMF, doesn't have any devices in her home which she could use to cheat by simply checking whether your wifi is up. But if you're able to prevent the SSID broadcast then you could mitigate that.
posted by equalpants at 3:01 AM on May 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Of course this assumes that the neighbor, being avoidant of EMF, doesn't have any devices in her home which she could use to cheat by simply checking whether your wifi is up. But if you're able to prevent the SSID broadcast then you could mitigate that.
posted by equalpants at 3:01 AM on May 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
I would only engage with the very specific elements of this that 'belong' to you-- is it appropriate for your neighbor to ask for this accommodation? The answer is no. Everything else is a distraction. Don't get caught up in the morass of whether EMF is real. In mediation, I would be sure to explicitly name the concerns about the process resulting in 'splitting the difference' regardless of the merits of each person's stance. Finally, I would be sure that I knew my legal rights within the framework of the co-housing. This sounds immensely stressful and I'm sorry you're going through it.
posted by jeszac at 8:54 AM on May 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by jeszac at 8:54 AM on May 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
I agree with the advice to keep the discussion narrowly focussed on the specific issue, which is what kind of accommodation can reasonably be asked of you. Whether or not your neighbour has a legitimate medical issue is a question for somebody else, and one that will not be resolved in any kind of timeframe that will help you.
A couple of decades ago, I lived in an apartment down the hall from a lovely elderly couple. One evening the gentleman tapped on my door to ask for a favour: his wife suffered terribly from anxiety and worried about me when I was away from home past 10pm. If she knew I was out, she would pace and cry and be unable to sleep until I got home, which made him miserable as well. Could I help them by getting home at a "reasonable" hour? No I could not. I repeated, over and over again, that while I would do my best to be very quiet and considerate when entering and leaving my place, in the hope that she might not be aware that I had gone out, I would come and go from my apartment as and when I needed to. He didn't like it, and got quite nasty when I stood my ground. A couple of years later, I moved out and a friend took over my lease. She was a more polite and malleable person than me, and ended up feeling like a hostage in her own home. I don't think it helped the neighbour's anxiety either.
In 2022, you and your partner and roommate have the right to use the internet and other technology, and you have already taken a number of reasonable steps to respect her need/desire to have your wifi signals as far away from her as possible. If the board can come up with other ways of reducing exposure that don't limit your legitimate use of technology in your own home, then great. If not, the adjustments will have to be made on her side, and that's somebody else's problem.
posted by rpfields at 4:35 PM on May 28, 2022 [10 favorites]
A couple of decades ago, I lived in an apartment down the hall from a lovely elderly couple. One evening the gentleman tapped on my door to ask for a favour: his wife suffered terribly from anxiety and worried about me when I was away from home past 10pm. If she knew I was out, she would pace and cry and be unable to sleep until I got home, which made him miserable as well. Could I help them by getting home at a "reasonable" hour? No I could not. I repeated, over and over again, that while I would do my best to be very quiet and considerate when entering and leaving my place, in the hope that she might not be aware that I had gone out, I would come and go from my apartment as and when I needed to. He didn't like it, and got quite nasty when I stood my ground. A couple of years later, I moved out and a friend took over my lease. She was a more polite and malleable person than me, and ended up feeling like a hostage in her own home. I don't think it helped the neighbour's anxiety either.
In 2022, you and your partner and roommate have the right to use the internet and other technology, and you have already taken a number of reasonable steps to respect her need/desire to have your wifi signals as far away from her as possible. If the board can come up with other ways of reducing exposure that don't limit your legitimate use of technology in your own home, then great. If not, the adjustments will have to be made on her side, and that's somebody else's problem.
posted by rpfields at 4:35 PM on May 28, 2022 [10 favorites]
I wonder if the neighbor's condition and their requirement that those sharing a wall not use wifi is something that ought to have been disclosed as part of the purchase of the townhome? I feel like it's unreasonable to expect a new owner to accommodate that demand and that only a very particular prospective owner could have met those requirements.
posted by QuakerMel at 5:55 PM on June 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by QuakerMel at 5:55 PM on June 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
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