Reasonable Coparent Expectations
May 26, 2022 4:18 AM Subscribe
Is it unreasonable and unfair to expect my coparent to help withchildrearing duties when he comes over to see our kids?
My ex and I have 2 kids - 1 and 3. We also have 50/50 joint custody but for the past 9 months our kids have been with me full-time because he feels it's best right now.
He visits occasionally during the week - it varies 1-3x/week. He visited yesterday as well after work. He usually stays for 2-3 hours and then leaves. Since these are the evenings would expect him to help with our kids nighttime routine - bath, bedtime, story etc. Lately - he's been leaving around that time and if he is here just sits on the couch while I do the routine by myself.
I got annoyed yesterday when he said was leaving while the kids were in the bath. We discussed it and I mentioned that since he's here, he's their father and he's relieved from many of the duties of parenting because he never has the kids that it would be helpful and easier if he assisted with this stuff when he was here. He stayed but was annoyed. He reached out later and said:
It feels like you still have certain expectations of me when it comes to the kids that you shouldn't. My understanding of things between us is that they've ended and you have no interest in fixing them. As unfortunate as that is, I'm slowly coming to that realization. With that in mind it needs to be understood that the "nice" things that I CAN do are not a requirement. The whole bedtime routine thing. You should not have expectations of me being involved with that at your home. When I have the
kids and I need to do anything with them I do so with no expectations of you being involved. I feel I must set this boundary. If we were still involved than I would understand you having these expectations but things being as they are I feel it's an "unfair" expectation.
Is it unreasonable to have expectations that he'll assist with the nighttime at my house when he visits the kids in the evening? For the record, I do help at his house if I am there. In my view we're parents all the time - 100%. Our kids needs to get dressed and take a bath doesn't end because we (their parents) aren't together. He doesn't have the kids overnight so his argument is moot and he doesn't want to be responsible for any of that at my house but have the enjoyment of spending time without the responsibility of parenting? I feel he's absolving himself of responsibility and attaching that responsibility to couplehood rather than parenthood.
My ex and I have 2 kids - 1 and 3. We also have 50/50 joint custody but for the past 9 months our kids have been with me full-time because he feels it's best right now.
He visits occasionally during the week - it varies 1-3x/week. He visited yesterday as well after work. He usually stays for 2-3 hours and then leaves. Since these are the evenings would expect him to help with our kids nighttime routine - bath, bedtime, story etc. Lately - he's been leaving around that time and if he is here just sits on the couch while I do the routine by myself.
I got annoyed yesterday when he said was leaving while the kids were in the bath. We discussed it and I mentioned that since he's here, he's their father and he's relieved from many of the duties of parenting because he never has the kids that it would be helpful and easier if he assisted with this stuff when he was here. He stayed but was annoyed. He reached out later and said:
It feels like you still have certain expectations of me when it comes to the kids that you shouldn't. My understanding of things between us is that they've ended and you have no interest in fixing them. As unfortunate as that is, I'm slowly coming to that realization. With that in mind it needs to be understood that the "nice" things that I CAN do are not a requirement. The whole bedtime routine thing. You should not have expectations of me being involved with that at your home. When I have the
kids and I need to do anything with them I do so with no expectations of you being involved. I feel I must set this boundary. If we were still involved than I would understand you having these expectations but things being as they are I feel it's an "unfair" expectation.
Is it unreasonable to have expectations that he'll assist with the nighttime at my house when he visits the kids in the evening? For the record, I do help at his house if I am there. In my view we're parents all the time - 100%. Our kids needs to get dressed and take a bath doesn't end because we (their parents) aren't together. He doesn't have the kids overnight so his argument is moot and he doesn't want to be responsible for any of that at my house but have the enjoyment of spending time without the responsibility of parenting? I feel he's absolving himself of responsibility and attaching that responsibility to couplehood rather than parenthood.
I feel like if he doesn't want to help parent when he visits then he can just go ahead and not visit.
It's not like you're asking him to help do the kids' laundry. You're asking him to help out them to bed. If he doesn't want to do that, why is he even visiting then?
I suspect this is all a manipulation tactic. He wants to get back together with you, or he wants to emotionally hurt you, or something.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [44 favorites]
It's not like you're asking him to help do the kids' laundry. You're asking him to help out them to bed. If he doesn't want to do that, why is he even visiting then?
I suspect this is all a manipulation tactic. He wants to get back together with you, or he wants to emotionally hurt you, or something.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [44 favorites]
He needs to have the kids at his place during his custody period, or you could leave.
I wouldn’t advise spending your energy on trying to achieve agreement on a kind of minute-by-minute basis around what he should do. I agree with you but convincing him is way too much work. The easier solution is just to not be there. Maybe you could swap houses when it’s his custody period
posted by warriorqueen at 4:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [24 favorites]
I wouldn’t advise spending your energy on trying to achieve agreement on a kind of minute-by-minute basis around what he should do. I agree with you but convincing him is way too much work. The easier solution is just to not be there. Maybe you could swap houses when it’s his custody period
posted by warriorqueen at 4:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [24 favorites]
I feel he's absolving himself of responsibility and attaching that responsibility to couplehood rather than parenthood.
That’s how it reads to me, as well. Bedtime routines, bathing, etc., are things done for your children, not your partner — as are helping them learn routines and responsibilities around putting away toys, etc.
Did you develop a joint parenting plan during the divorce? If you have one, that might be useful to reference during this discussion. It might be worth another conversation with your attorney, as well, to get some clarification about the responsibilities attached to the definition of “joint custody” in your legal jurisdiction.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:44 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
That’s how it reads to me, as well. Bedtime routines, bathing, etc., are things done for your children, not your partner — as are helping them learn routines and responsibilities around putting away toys, etc.
Did you develop a joint parenting plan during the divorce? If you have one, that might be useful to reference during this discussion. It might be worth another conversation with your attorney, as well, to get some clarification about the responsibilities attached to the definition of “joint custody” in your legal jurisdiction.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:44 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
If he had the kids 50% of the time it might be reasonable. But he is not even close to 50% time if he comes over a few hours a week and times it to avoid parenting duties.
If he can’t or won’t help with the kids’ care directly then it’s time to renegotiate the custody agreement (via lawyer); he should be paying for their care in money if he’s not willing to pay for it with time.
posted by nat at 4:53 AM on May 26, 2022 [59 favorites]
If he can’t or won’t help with the kids’ care directly then it’s time to renegotiate the custody agreement (via lawyer); he should be paying for their care in money if he’s not willing to pay for it with time.
posted by nat at 4:53 AM on May 26, 2022 [59 favorites]
because he feels it's best right now.
He’s made a significant alteration to your custody agreement.
Run this through the legal channels and get the entirety of the support you are entitled to and get it documented that you are doing 100% of the work here.
His email likely helps your case, but definitely have a chat with your lawyer about this.
You won’t change his mind; but you may be able to protect yourself.
posted by bilabial at 4:55 AM on May 26, 2022 [86 favorites]
He’s made a significant alteration to your custody agreement.
Run this through the legal channels and get the entirety of the support you are entitled to and get it documented that you are doing 100% of the work here.
His email likely helps your case, but definitely have a chat with your lawyer about this.
You won’t change his mind; but you may be able to protect yourself.
posted by bilabial at 4:55 AM on May 26, 2022 [86 favorites]
End the visits.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:55 AM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 4:55 AM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
Argh also the kids are with you full time because “he feels it is best right now.”
WTF? That’s not a decision he gets to make unilaterally.
posted by nat at 4:55 AM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
WTF? That’s not a decision he gets to make unilaterally.
posted by nat at 4:55 AM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
When I have the
kids and I need to do anything with them I do so with no expectations of you being involved. I feel I must set this boundary.
Whatta dick. Guess what? You can set a boundary too, by not having him visit while you have the kids. I know it's a giant pain, but I'd get the lawyer involved. What he's doing is very manipulative, and it's not going to get better when you start putting your foot down, as you've already seen.
posted by Sparky Buttons at 5:00 AM on May 26, 2022 [21 favorites]
kids and I need to do anything with them I do so with no expectations of you being involved. I feel I must set this boundary.
Whatta dick. Guess what? You can set a boundary too, by not having him visit while you have the kids. I know it's a giant pain, but I'd get the lawyer involved. What he's doing is very manipulative, and it's not going to get better when you start putting your foot down, as you've already seen.
posted by Sparky Buttons at 5:00 AM on May 26, 2022 [21 favorites]
Omg, outrageous! I agree with not doing a lot of back and forth but maybe it is time to make a formal agreement about what if any parenting dude is going to do then holding him to it. Is there a legal agreement already? Does he pay child support?
He must set a 'boundary'? What a fucking tool.
posted by latkes at 5:06 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
He must set a 'boundary'? What a fucking tool.
posted by latkes at 5:06 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Sorry you’re dealing with this. I know parenting very young children after divorce is incredibly difficult for parents and disruptive for children, but going from 50/50 by agreement to they live with you but he visits on whatever schedule he can show up for 2-3 hours because “he feels it's best right now” doesn’t sound like like coparenting at all - it sounds like he’s taking advantage of you. Does he also call taking care of the kids during his time “babysitting”?
I suspect that he “feels it’s best” for the kids to be full time with you because he doesn’t want the responsibility of childcare. Childcare - especially for kids as young as yours - is HARD. When do you get time off? When do you get what you feel is best? If he sees helping take care of the kids’ needs when he’s at your house as doing “nice things” for you, then you need to insist that when he comes over for his time with the kids, that’s your time out. You can go out with friends, go to the movies, sit in your own room and watch Netflix with the door closed, whatever. Until they go to sleep and he leaves. That’s his custody time. Because it was his choice to do “what’s best for them” at your house and not at his.
He’s right that this isn’t about coparenting together. You’re not a unit where you say “hey, Honey, can you give the bath while I get the bottles ready for tomorrow?” This is about coparenting separately. Where you work as a team individually to raise your kids. The fact that he wants to do that in your house sporadically instead of his own on a fairer schedule doesn’t change that. It’s still his custody time, not yours.
If he doesn’t like it, time to renegotiate terms. He doesn’t get it. And he shouldn’t be in your house as if he’s their fun uncle.
posted by Mchelly at 5:10 AM on May 26, 2022 [43 favorites]
I suspect that he “feels it’s best” for the kids to be full time with you because he doesn’t want the responsibility of childcare. Childcare - especially for kids as young as yours - is HARD. When do you get time off? When do you get what you feel is best? If he sees helping take care of the kids’ needs when he’s at your house as doing “nice things” for you, then you need to insist that when he comes over for his time with the kids, that’s your time out. You can go out with friends, go to the movies, sit in your own room and watch Netflix with the door closed, whatever. Until they go to sleep and he leaves. That’s his custody time. Because it was his choice to do “what’s best for them” at your house and not at his.
He’s right that this isn’t about coparenting together. You’re not a unit where you say “hey, Honey, can you give the bath while I get the bottles ready for tomorrow?” This is about coparenting separately. Where you work as a team individually to raise your kids. The fact that he wants to do that in your house sporadically instead of his own on a fairer schedule doesn’t change that. It’s still his custody time, not yours.
If he doesn’t like it, time to renegotiate terms. He doesn’t get it. And he shouldn’t be in your house as if he’s their fun uncle.
posted by Mchelly at 5:10 AM on May 26, 2022 [43 favorites]
This makes my blood boil. I'd say no more visits unless he is going to look after the kids while you do other things. It seems like he visits because he wants to get back together with you, not because he wants to parent.
posted by emd3737 at 5:14 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 5:14 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Hooo boy. No, you are not unreasonable. He is a complete [insert genitalia of choice].
As a woman with a really similar ex, I think you need to do two things: one, see and accept that you are a single mother with an unfair burden being placed on you. Two, decide how you can best handle the burden. Three, make a conscious decision to manage you relationship with your ex in the way that is best for your kids (which includes your own wellbeing of course).
Basically you’re going to have to do something really hard: play by his sexist, unfair rules in order to get what you want. This will feel really sh*tty, but you need to keep your larger goal in mind.
I see two strategies, based on my own experience with a man like this.
1: Set up a routine item that he is responsible for wrt childcare. It could be something small like “read a book to 3 while I bathe 1.” It’s harder to shirk a routine. Obviously, the easiest way to do this is actual custody days at his house, but it sounds like (for reasons I assume are solid) you are doing all of the nights. Maybe think of things he can do routinely under the current arrangement - daycare pickup? A music or sports class?
2: When you want something in the moment, you’re going to have to suck it up and grovel. Sad but true. “Ex, I am feeling really overwhelmed right now. Do you think you could possibly throw the kids’ clothes into the dryer? Thank you, that is sooo helpful!”
None of this is easy. If you had a good, fair partnership you would not be separated. But you need to be a strategic mama bear now.
posted by haptic_avenger at 5:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
As a woman with a really similar ex, I think you need to do two things: one, see and accept that you are a single mother with an unfair burden being placed on you. Two, decide how you can best handle the burden. Three, make a conscious decision to manage you relationship with your ex in the way that is best for your kids (which includes your own wellbeing of course).
Basically you’re going to have to do something really hard: play by his sexist, unfair rules in order to get what you want. This will feel really sh*tty, but you need to keep your larger goal in mind.
I see two strategies, based on my own experience with a man like this.
1: Set up a routine item that he is responsible for wrt childcare. It could be something small like “read a book to 3 while I bathe 1.” It’s harder to shirk a routine. Obviously, the easiest way to do this is actual custody days at his house, but it sounds like (for reasons I assume are solid) you are doing all of the nights. Maybe think of things he can do routinely under the current arrangement - daycare pickup? A music or sports class?
2: When you want something in the moment, you’re going to have to suck it up and grovel. Sad but true. “Ex, I am feeling really overwhelmed right now. Do you think you could possibly throw the kids’ clothes into the dryer? Thank you, that is sooo helpful!”
None of this is easy. If you had a good, fair partnership you would not be separated. But you need to be a strategic mama bear now.
posted by haptic_avenger at 5:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
I really think it bears repeating and emphasizing that he's explicitly tying parenting to your relationship as a couple in a weird, gross way that lets him off the hook for his parental responsibilities because you want to remain broken up. That's not okay, not even a little.
posted by J. Wilson at 5:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [42 favorites]
posted by J. Wilson at 5:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [42 favorites]
You need to speak with your lawyer because 50/50 isn't working out. Reading through your posts he doesn't reliably see the kids and when he does, he doesn't bother with basic care for them. Even when he's at the house, he won't interact with your kids.
He's made it very clear that he's not interested in being a parent. Like bilabial said, protect yourself.
posted by kingdead at 5:35 AM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
He's made it very clear that he's not interested in being a parent. Like bilabial said, protect yourself.
posted by kingdead at 5:35 AM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
As someone whose adult kids have spent more time in therapy because of their father than they ever spent with him, I offer a few bits of advice:
posted by headnsouth at 5:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [34 favorites]
1. Stop referring to his part as helping; he is their parent and it is his duty just as much as it is yours, but mostly it keeps the focus on your relationship with him rather than on his relationship with his children.*Not saying that's where you are, but as the years go on, your attempts to accommodate him while he shirks his duties will wear on you.
2. Stop inviting him over if he's not a gracious guest in your home; he can take the kids to the park or for a walk around the block/through the mall. Coparenting doesn't mean being in the same room together, and in your case playing house blurs the lines about your relationship for everyone involved.
3. Stop expecting anything from him whatsoever; your kids will learn how to behave in relationships from both of you, and you don't want them to grow up to become resentful appeasers* or unreliable shirkers.
4. Find a family counselor who specializes in play therapy; it will be helpful for you now and a good resource for your kids later.
5. Document every bit of his nonsense and maintain your relationship with your lawyer; he sounds like the kind of person who'd suddenly go after custody just to punish you.
posted by headnsouth at 5:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [34 favorites]
Visiting you in your house a few hours a week letting you do all the work is NOT 50/50 custody. Even if he did bathtime without being asked, he’d still be shirking his responsibilities.
He doesn’t get to change that arrangement without some negotiation. I would involve the lawyer sooner rather than later. I would also not reply to his email as he’s creating a paper trail in which you’re agreeing to a new arrangement. Don’t fall for it.
posted by kapers at 5:57 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
He doesn’t get to change that arrangement without some negotiation. I would involve the lawyer sooner rather than later. I would also not reply to his email as he’s creating a paper trail in which you’re agreeing to a new arrangement. Don’t fall for it.
posted by kapers at 5:57 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Is this manipulative immature manbaby paying child support? He should be! Is it in the custody agreement that he can just come and hang out at your house whenever he feels like it?
Sounds to me like he should cough up child support and stop coming to your house. Go back to your lawyer. If he wants to see the kids he has to see them somewhere other than your house.
He's not a coparent, you're being much too nice, he's an asshole irresponsible ex.
posted by mareli at 6:04 AM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
Sounds to me like he should cough up child support and stop coming to your house. Go back to your lawyer. If he wants to see the kids he has to see them somewhere other than your house.
He's not a coparent, you're being much too nice, he's an asshole irresponsible ex.
posted by mareli at 6:04 AM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
Yes, it's unreasonable of you to expect him to help, especially given his history and patterns. It sounds like he has arranged this to his absolute benefit. The kids are with you 100% of the time, therefore you have accepted in practice that you will parent them 100% of the time. When he "visits" it is always against the backdrop of you parenting 100% of the time. It sounds like his visits are haphazard and at his whim. He has the option of participating or not participating, staying or leaving. Unfortunately, that's what you've accepted. Is it good for the kids? No. Is it good for you? No. Is it good for him? Yes.
Revert to the legally agreed upon plan. If the 50-50 joint custody isn't legally set, get it legally set. Bring the children to his house when it's their time with him. Depart.
posted by cocoagirl at 6:04 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Revert to the legally agreed upon plan. If the 50-50 joint custody isn't legally set, get it legally set. Bring the children to his house when it's their time with him. Depart.
posted by cocoagirl at 6:04 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
The thing that really stands out to me about this ‘technically it’s 50/50 but actually you’re the full time parent’ situation is that it’s a convenient loophole for him to not have to take care of them OR pay you child support. Your desires and expectations are totally reasonable, but it doesn’t sound like they’re likely to be fulfilled by your entitled. It seems like you should decide whether you can accept the emotional and financial status quo of being a single parent whose ex visits the house sometimes, tell him that his time with the kids needs to be outside the house, or if you want to speak with a lawyer about changing the terms of the custody agreement, since the previous one is not being honored. Even if you are financially fine at the moment, I am sure that the child support money he SHOULD be paying you could do something awesome for your kids now or in the future.
posted by Summers at 6:07 AM on May 26, 2022 [46 favorites]
posted by Summers at 6:07 AM on May 26, 2022 [46 favorites]
Wanted to add that since he's not doing his share of the 50/50 it's time for you to get primary custody.
posted by mareli at 6:08 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by mareli at 6:08 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Sample response:
I believe that helping her your kids ready for bed while you are around is part of being a father. It is not a favor to me. Whenever I am with my children, I am going to be a part of their lives and routines and help raise them as well as I can. If you do not feel the same then I think it would be best for you to stop visiting until you are able to resume your side of the custody arrangement. If you want visitation rights, we can set that up through our lawyers.
posted by Garm at 6:14 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
I believe that helping her your kids ready for bed while you are around is part of being a father. It is not a favor to me. Whenever I am with my children, I am going to be a part of their lives and routines and help raise them as well as I can. If you do not feel the same then I think it would be best for you to stop visiting until you are able to resume your side of the custody arrangement. If you want visitation rights, we can set that up through our lawyers.
posted by Garm at 6:14 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Lots of suggestions here to stop letting him visit completely.
PLEASE consult your attorney before doing that.
It does sound like redefining the co-parenting plan and any financial accommodations is necessary, but in the US, anyway, unilaterally ‘denying visitation’ - which is likely how the courts will encode it - will make negotiating a revision magnitudes more difficult. I know it sucks and is not fair. But hopefully it will be short lived.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:29 AM on May 26, 2022 [25 favorites]
PLEASE consult your attorney before doing that.
It does sound like redefining the co-parenting plan and any financial accommodations is necessary, but in the US, anyway, unilaterally ‘denying visitation’ - which is likely how the courts will encode it - will make negotiating a revision magnitudes more difficult. I know it sucks and is not fair. But hopefully it will be short lived.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:29 AM on May 26, 2022 [25 favorites]
He needs to actually be a 50-50 parent or you need sole custody. I favor the latter because he's clearly not a real parent even in his own mind.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by J. Wilson at 6:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
You are completely not unreasonable, and he’s utterly out of line. Lots of people have given you talking points, under the assumption that more would be helpful, here are mine:
You have voluntarily chosen to leave me with 100% physical custody of the children. I remain open to a new arrangement by which you would take physical custody for up to 50% of the time.
However, under the current circumstances, when you see the children it is as a guest in my house. When you are a guest in my house, you will abide by my house rules, including carrying out reasonable parenting tasks relating to caring for and interacting with your children. If you refuse to do so, you are no longer welcome as a guest in my house, and I will require that you leave.
posted by LizardBreath at 6:45 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
You have voluntarily chosen to leave me with 100% physical custody of the children. I remain open to a new arrangement by which you would take physical custody for up to 50% of the time.
However, under the current circumstances, when you see the children it is as a guest in my house. When you are a guest in my house, you will abide by my house rules, including carrying out reasonable parenting tasks relating to caring for and interacting with your children. If you refuse to do so, you are no longer welcome as a guest in my house, and I will require that you leave.
posted by LizardBreath at 6:45 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Don't respond at all. Let your lawyer do it. Seriously.
posted by cooker girl at 6:47 AM on May 26, 2022 [24 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 6:47 AM on May 26, 2022 [24 favorites]
It seems especially messed up that he's neglecting one of the most bonding times that he could have with his kids. Bath, bed & story time is something that I sorely missed when my kids started to grow out of it.
The guy doesn't get it. You've been super-generous to give him this much flexibility. He has not responded well.
posted by rd45 at 6:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
The guy doesn't get it. You've been super-generous to give him this much flexibility. He has not responded well.
posted by rd45 at 6:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
My understanding of things between us is that they've ended and you have no interest in fixing them. As unfortunate as that is, I'm slowly coming to that realization.
I think he's mad at you and he's acting vindictive. It's completely unfair to you and to the children and it needs to stop.
posted by BibiRose at 7:05 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think he's mad at you and he's acting vindictive. It's completely unfair to you and to the children and it needs to stop.
posted by BibiRose at 7:05 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Get your lawyer involved. The child support arrangement is presumably predicated on 50/50 physical custody, not 100% you. If he can't even give his own kid a bath, then he can provide resources like someone who has washed his hands of his children's care. Deploying the therapy language means he's a manipulative so-and-so acting with deliberation. Frankly, after the way he tried to suggest that care is tied to your relationship status, I wouldn't really feel comfortable having him in my house at all, much less chilling on my couch while I do the household labor. (Keep all his emails/texts, by the way. I have a feeling you're going to need them.)
posted by praemunire at 7:14 AM on May 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 7:14 AM on May 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
Oh what a nice relaxing deal for him! He officially has 50/50 custody so he probably is not paying child support. He actually has 0% custody so he doesn't need to do any child care. And now he invites himself into your home on the pretext of visiting his children but he refuses to do any parenting.
Fuck this arrangement. Get your lawyer on the phone and work out a new, legal agreement. Either he starts taking the kids on a regular schedule, or he pays you so you can afford some childcare so you can have some time off. But no more "visits" in your home.
posted by jessica fletcher did it at 7:31 AM on May 26, 2022 [25 favorites]
Fuck this arrangement. Get your lawyer on the phone and work out a new, legal agreement. Either he starts taking the kids on a regular schedule, or he pays you so you can afford some childcare so you can have some time off. But no more "visits" in your home.
posted by jessica fletcher did it at 7:31 AM on May 26, 2022 [25 favorites]
Also, the visits (and him taking any custody at all) isn't so he can parent his children. It's so you are forced to see him. Shut it down.
posted by jessica fletcher did it at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by jessica fletcher did it at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Let me add my voice to the chorus to drive home the point that no reasonable person coud possibly take your ex side here. That was a truly ridiculous thing he wrote there.
He needs to understand that this is not about the relationship between him and you, but between him and his kids.
His kids can reasonably expect that he puts in the effort, if he wants a relationship with them.
He cannot reasonably expect that you will continue to facilitate his relationship with the kids if he doesn't.
You can reasonably expect that a person old enough to have kids should be smart enough to understand that.
Unfortunately I don't think this is a matter of cognitive deficits. I think he's being petty, and vindictive and wants to take his anger about you out on the kids. Talk with your lawyer and prepare for this to get worse.
posted by sohalt at 7:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
He needs to understand that this is not about the relationship between him and you, but between him and his kids.
His kids can reasonably expect that he puts in the effort, if he wants a relationship with them.
He cannot reasonably expect that you will continue to facilitate his relationship with the kids if he doesn't.
You can reasonably expect that a person old enough to have kids should be smart enough to understand that.
Unfortunately I don't think this is a matter of cognitive deficits. I think he's being petty, and vindictive and wants to take his anger about you out on the kids. Talk with your lawyer and prepare for this to get worse.
posted by sohalt at 7:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
When guys like this want 50/50 custody, it is only to avoid paying the child support they’d otherwise owe. If it helps you resolve to fight for it, that support isn’t to benefit you, but them. He owes them it, and you’re the one who, with your lawyer, can get it for them.
posted by daisyace at 7:45 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by daisyace at 7:45 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Lots of good advice but I especially appreciate headnsouth's. This is such a hard adjustment to make with someone you used to share a life with, but it actually harms you and your kids to continue dialog with him in this manner, allowing him to behave as if you are still emotionally obligated to him (which you are not). He is either delusional or intentionally manipulative.. or both! So there is no benefit to 'compromise' here. Ignore his bullshit and focus on your own behaviors and you and your kids' needs. It is widely understood that he must either pay child support or parent the kids 50% of the time. Do not negotiate, be stony and factual with him and get legal support if necessary so that your kids can get the financial and parenting support they need.
posted by latkes at 7:49 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by latkes at 7:49 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Let me add my voice to the "lawyer" chorus. It sounds like you're trying to be amicable about this, and he is using that to push farther and farther. Make him live up to the letter of the agreement or have your lawyers negotiate changes to the letter of the agreement.
posted by Etrigan at 7:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 7:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
You need an enforceable custody agreement.
He’s not visiting the kids. He’s visiting you. And he’s punishing you for leaving him by refusing to parent. What an asshole. Talk to your lawyer.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:06 AM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
He’s not visiting the kids. He’s visiting you. And he’s punishing you for leaving him by refusing to parent. What an asshole. Talk to your lawyer.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:06 AM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
This guy is a piece of work. I remember you from your prior posts about him, but this is a shocking new low.
We also have 50/50 joint custody but for the past 9 months our kids have been with me full-time
How much child support is he paying? If the kids are with you full time, he should be paying a lot more than he was probably ordered to by a court that intended them to be with him half the time.
What is reasonable to expect of someone with 50% physical custody is that he will have the children with him in his home, taking care of them, 50% of the time. That is obviously not what he is doing.
I think your strategy here needs to vary according to what you want. If you want him to do and pay his share, then he needs to take the kids to his place 50% of the time.
If you don't trust him to do this properly then go back to court, show them this note of his, tell them that for 9 months you've had the kids with you 100% of the time because he refuses to take them, being so lazy and uninterested in his children that he isn't even willing to give them a bath (!!!!) and demand a new order where you have 100% physical custody and he has to pay the support to facilitate this. And cover those last 9 months, too.
Don't continue to host his lazy ass on your couch and call that co-parenting.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
We also have 50/50 joint custody but for the past 9 months our kids have been with me full-time
How much child support is he paying? If the kids are with you full time, he should be paying a lot more than he was probably ordered to by a court that intended them to be with him half the time.
What is reasonable to expect of someone with 50% physical custody is that he will have the children with him in his home, taking care of them, 50% of the time. That is obviously not what he is doing.
I think your strategy here needs to vary according to what you want. If you want him to do and pay his share, then he needs to take the kids to his place 50% of the time.
If you don't trust him to do this properly then go back to court, show them this note of his, tell them that for 9 months you've had the kids with you 100% of the time because he refuses to take them, being so lazy and uninterested in his children that he isn't even willing to give them a bath (!!!!) and demand a new order where you have 100% physical custody and he has to pay the support to facilitate this. And cover those last 9 months, too.
Don't continue to host his lazy ass on your couch and call that co-parenting.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
Sounds like his butt has a custody arrangement with your couch.
The kids are still young enough that if you two work through this with your lawyer they won’t know what a short-sighted asshole their father is. For all your sakes, call your lawyer today.
posted by amanda at 8:47 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
The kids are still young enough that if you two work through this with your lawyer they won’t know what a short-sighted asshole their father is. For all your sakes, call your lawyer today.
posted by amanda at 8:47 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Absolutely talk with your lawyer before making any changes to the status quo re: how much parenting time he can have. But absent something in your custody agreement specifying this legally: there is absolutely no reason that you have to let him have parenting time in your house, or that you have to do the parenting during his parenting time.
So if he wants to see the kids, he takes them. Lunch? The park? Not your problem! He can drop them off and not come in at the end of the visit.
If that's not feasible, you're not comfortable with it, etc., then can you wash your hands of the parenting when he's over ostensibly parenting? Go off to your room or a comfy chair outside, read a book, call a friend, whatever - you're off duty, he can do whatever parenting needs doing. When he turns the parenting back over to you he goes out the door, so sure, if he wants to be a jerk he can decide his parenting time ends when bath/reading/bedtime starts - but that doesn't mean he gets to kick back on your couch while you do the work, it means he leaves.
He's using the kids as weapons to hang around and be part of your life, and that sucks for you and will also suck for them once they get a little older and realize what he's doing. The sooner this stops, the better.
posted by Stacey at 8:57 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
So if he wants to see the kids, he takes them. Lunch? The park? Not your problem! He can drop them off and not come in at the end of the visit.
If that's not feasible, you're not comfortable with it, etc., then can you wash your hands of the parenting when he's over ostensibly parenting? Go off to your room or a comfy chair outside, read a book, call a friend, whatever - you're off duty, he can do whatever parenting needs doing. When he turns the parenting back over to you he goes out the door, so sure, if he wants to be a jerk he can decide his parenting time ends when bath/reading/bedtime starts - but that doesn't mean he gets to kick back on your couch while you do the work, it means he leaves.
He's using the kids as weapons to hang around and be part of your life, and that sucks for you and will also suck for them once they get a little older and realize what he's doing. The sooner this stops, the better.
posted by Stacey at 8:57 AM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
It is not about fair or 50-50. He needs to understand that he is a father, a parent today, tomorrow, and for the rest of his life. He cannot turn that off when he is in your house. I personally would not let him in the house. Sorry, I have guests. Not today. If you want to take the kids to your house today, ok.
He is gaslighting you. He is saying he is a parent when he wants to be. I am afraid to ask about him paying child support.
I am the child of divorced parents and a divorced parent myself. Our custody arrangement was one week on and one week off with a dinner on your off week. Your kids will adapt to a shared physical custody arrangement. He may view it as I am giving you the benefit of having the kids more often than the agreement, but with that extra time comes extra responsibilities too. The weeks I did not have my kids, I would speak to them or text with them daily, but if one needed to go to an appointment or needed to be picked up at school, it was their mom's deal. Of course, in a pinch, and a pinch is not just being inconvenienced, I would help out.
His sense of how being a parent and co-parenting should work is warped.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
He is gaslighting you. He is saying he is a parent when he wants to be. I am afraid to ask about him paying child support.
I am the child of divorced parents and a divorced parent myself. Our custody arrangement was one week on and one week off with a dinner on your off week. Your kids will adapt to a shared physical custody arrangement. He may view it as I am giving you the benefit of having the kids more often than the agreement, but with that extra time comes extra responsibilities too. The weeks I did not have my kids, I would speak to them or text with them daily, but if one needed to go to an appointment or needed to be picked up at school, it was their mom's deal. Of course, in a pinch, and a pinch is not just being inconvenienced, I would help out.
His sense of how being a parent and co-parenting should work is warped.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:17 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Rereading through the comments here and OP's past asks ... I would not assume that the ex is capable of taking 50% custody in a way that is good for these kids. Handling 2 toddlers is extreme parenting, and he does not sound like he is up to the task. What OP is doing is facilitating some relationship by letting him come to the house. I think maybe it's time for OP to think about a different custody arrangement, but not insisting on 50-50, in a way that her ex will accept, and will create healthier boundaries. Maybe over time he will be able to build up to 50-50, but for now, I think it needs to be worked up to. I'd start with just offering that he take the 3 year old on Friday after daycare to Saturday dinner, and do a family dinner together with the 1 year old. If he wants more time with the 1 year old, suggest a Wednesday evening activity they can do together out of the house, like swim lessons. My personal choice in my somewhat similar situation was that I preferred more parenting time over a child-support throwdown, so I never pushed for child support despite having about 80% of parenting time. OP may have different financial needs than I do, though.
posted by haptic_avenger at 9:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by haptic_avenger at 9:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Uh....what? No. Everyone else has said it better than I could (the only thing I can really come up with is "Christ, what an asshole"), but I just want to add another voice saying you need to retain a lawyer and work out a parenting schedule. I'm sorry you have to deal with him and that he said something so blisteringly stupid and offensive to you.
posted by holborne at 9:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by holborne at 9:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
You are not asking him to "help". You are giving him an opportunity that many men wish they could have: the opportunity to be a father, and to support his children with love and not just providing things from a distance.
posted by amtho at 10:23 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 10:23 AM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Lots of great advice and definitely call a lawyer. If you trust him to be responsible with the kids, it seems like he should spend that time with them outdoors or elsewhere, not at your house where he can use them to try to manipulate you. I'm really sorry this is happening.
posted by jeszac at 11:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by jeszac at 11:18 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Chumplady.com has a whole section called Parenting With a Fuckwit. Your story fits right in.
posted by Enid Lareg at 11:22 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Enid Lareg at 11:22 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry you're being treated like this. It seems obvious to me that he's not coming to your house to visit his kids, he's there to visit you because he hasn't got it through his thick head that you are no longer together. Add another 'Christ, what an arsehole' to the list.
What you have is definitely not 50/50 care - you have 100% care and he has none. You are NOT co-parenting.
Therefore, he should be paying child support at the appropriate rate AND he should be taking his kids to his home and looking after them in some proportion. You should tell him he is not to come inside your property and he can pick the kids up at the door (or you take them to him or some combination). Do this through a lawyer and stick to it.
posted by dg at 2:14 PM on May 26, 2022
What you have is definitely not 50/50 care - you have 100% care and he has none. You are NOT co-parenting.
Therefore, he should be paying child support at the appropriate rate AND he should be taking his kids to his home and looking after them in some proportion. You should tell him he is not to come inside your property and he can pick the kids up at the door (or you take them to him or some combination). Do this through a lawyer and stick to it.
posted by dg at 2:14 PM on May 26, 2022
I'm a little puzzled by the responses suggesting using various forms of leverage to encourage the ex to take care of his children. I don't think spending more time with a parent who is only grudgingly looking after them is likely to be a great thing for the children. Also, if he cares so little for them, is he going to supervising them closely and mindful of their safety? Probably not. If the OP needs a break from parenting, she's probably better off getting a nanny or a sitter and paying them with the child support money. I agree that revisiting the custody agreement is a good idea, but I'd be looking to reduce the ex's allocated time to as low as the law allows.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:12 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:12 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Yeah what a tool. I'm so sorry you're going through this. Let's break this down.
>It feels like you still have certain expectations of me when it comes to the kids that you shouldn't.
"I'm troubled that you actually want me to parent our kids."
>My understanding of things between us is that they've ended and you have no interest in fixing them. As unfortunate as that is, I'm slowly coming to that realization.
"I was carrying a torch for you all this time but didn't want to tell you. I refused to believe that our relationship is over and that we should now be adults and work in the best interest of the kids."
>With that in mind it needs to be understood that the "nice" things that I CAN do are not a requirement.
"Since I've finally realized you don't want to get back together, you have no right to ask me these 'favours' to help with the kids at your house."
>The whole bedtime routine thing. You should not have expectations of me being involved with that at your home. When I have the kids and I need to do anything with them I do so with no expectations of you being involved.
"I don't want to do any work. When I have the kids... But wait. I DON'T have the kids because you agreed to take them full-time with no change in the custody agreement so I don't even have to pay child support! Not sure how I got you to agree to that. Anyway, if I ever feel like having the kids at my house, I'm definitely imagining you sitting on the couch while I do everything and I would absolutely not ask you to do anything. Yup. For realz I would do that."
>I feel I must set this boundary.
"I'm going to invoke 'boundary' language as a way to get you to shut up about this."
>If we were still involved than I would understand you having these expectations but things being as they are I feel it's an "unfair" expectation.
"Only when I'm in a relationship with you will I be a parent and you can ask me to parent. If you want me to parent, then it'll only happen if we get back together. Otherwise in my mind, I have no obligation to parent the kids at your house and I'm going to continue being a useless lump on your couch. I've only been coming over to see if we could still get back together, not to actually be a parent. By the way I see parenting the kids as doing you a favour and since we're not together, I'm not going to do you any favours because I have a bruised ego about being broken up."
I don't know what's wrong with your ex but he's definitely delusional. Others have given scripts for you to talk to him, but it's not worth talking to him. Go through your lawyer and renegotiate the custody agreement. You've had sole custody for 9 months with no child support. The custody agreement should reflect this.
posted by foxjacket at 4:40 PM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
>It feels like you still have certain expectations of me when it comes to the kids that you shouldn't.
"I'm troubled that you actually want me to parent our kids."
>My understanding of things between us is that they've ended and you have no interest in fixing them. As unfortunate as that is, I'm slowly coming to that realization.
"I was carrying a torch for you all this time but didn't want to tell you. I refused to believe that our relationship is over and that we should now be adults and work in the best interest of the kids."
>With that in mind it needs to be understood that the "nice" things that I CAN do are not a requirement.
"Since I've finally realized you don't want to get back together, you have no right to ask me these 'favours' to help with the kids at your house."
>The whole bedtime routine thing. You should not have expectations of me being involved with that at your home. When I have the kids and I need to do anything with them I do so with no expectations of you being involved.
"I don't want to do any work. When I have the kids... But wait. I DON'T have the kids because you agreed to take them full-time with no change in the custody agreement so I don't even have to pay child support! Not sure how I got you to agree to that. Anyway, if I ever feel like having the kids at my house, I'm definitely imagining you sitting on the couch while I do everything and I would absolutely not ask you to do anything. Yup. For realz I would do that."
>I feel I must set this boundary.
"I'm going to invoke 'boundary' language as a way to get you to shut up about this."
>If we were still involved than I would understand you having these expectations but things being as they are I feel it's an "unfair" expectation.
"Only when I'm in a relationship with you will I be a parent and you can ask me to parent. If you want me to parent, then it'll only happen if we get back together. Otherwise in my mind, I have no obligation to parent the kids at your house and I'm going to continue being a useless lump on your couch. I've only been coming over to see if we could still get back together, not to actually be a parent. By the way I see parenting the kids as doing you a favour and since we're not together, I'm not going to do you any favours because I have a bruised ego about being broken up."
I don't know what's wrong with your ex but he's definitely delusional. Others have given scripts for you to talk to him, but it's not worth talking to him. Go through your lawyer and renegotiate the custody agreement. You've had sole custody for 9 months with no child support. The custody agreement should reflect this.
posted by foxjacket at 4:40 PM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Let me guess, this guy's after work, pre-bedtime visits also coincide with mealtime at your house, right? And you probably feed him along with the kids, because you are a reasonable person?
Others have said it better than me but... nope. Just nope. As others have said, this guy is trying to manipulate you, he's been hoping the relationship isn't over and unfortunately, your kindness has been enabling that thinking. As the realization has dawned, he's gotten mad at you and he's acting out his anger by refusing to parent his own children.
He's taking advantage of you, and I hope you get the legal and other support you need to set and maintain healthy boundaries. This is not fair to you, or your kids.
posted by rpfields at 6:28 PM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
Others have said it better than me but... nope. Just nope. As others have said, this guy is trying to manipulate you, he's been hoping the relationship isn't over and unfortunately, your kindness has been enabling that thinking. As the realization has dawned, he's gotten mad at you and he's acting out his anger by refusing to parent his own children.
He's taking advantage of you, and I hope you get the legal and other support you need to set and maintain healthy boundaries. This is not fair to you, or your kids.
posted by rpfields at 6:28 PM on May 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
Keep copies of everything he writes to you.
You need full custody because... That's actually what you have. You need evidence of that, because given how he's being about... *Everything else*, it seems likely that the instant it turns out to be more convenient to *him*, to say fuck with your custody or parenting decision, he will, by claiming that he's been 50/50 all this time when he hasn't.
So I'd let this slide in favour of getting establishing full custody.
You deserve a break, and having another adult help care for your kids, but I'm not sure he's the one to do it.
*If* he plays child support (oh well), maybe that could go towards a babysitter. Or establishing people who want to support you as wider family or chosen family.
posted by Elysum at 8:03 AM on May 27, 2022
You need full custody because... That's actually what you have. You need evidence of that, because given how he's being about... *Everything else*, it seems likely that the instant it turns out to be more convenient to *him*, to say fuck with your custody or parenting decision, he will, by claiming that he's been 50/50 all this time when he hasn't.
So I'd let this slide in favour of getting establishing full custody.
You deserve a break, and having another adult help care for your kids, but I'm not sure he's the one to do it.
*If* he plays child support (oh well), maybe that could go towards a babysitter. Or establishing people who want to support you as wider family or chosen family.
posted by Elysum at 8:03 AM on May 27, 2022
Lawyer. He owes the kids significantly more child support since you have sole custody.
posted by Bottlecap at 8:24 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 8:24 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
also OP? I'm worried about you and the kids.
This guy has already shown that he wants to punish you for not being romantically available to him, by withdrawing his affection from the children.
I hope I'm being overly fearful here, but the scenario of a man punishing a woman by hurting her (often their) children is... a sadly common one.
Various folks have suggested that his custodial time with them shouldn't be times that you're doing the care work. Even I said that and it's true in an ideal world. But... I'm not so sure that leaving them alone with him is a great idea. Be careful?
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
This guy has already shown that he wants to punish you for not being romantically available to him, by withdrawing his affection from the children.
I hope I'm being overly fearful here, but the scenario of a man punishing a woman by hurting her (often their) children is... a sadly common one.
Various folks have suggested that his custodial time with them shouldn't be times that you're doing the care work. Even I said that and it's true in an ideal world. But... I'm not so sure that leaving them alone with him is a great idea. Be careful?
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by joycehealy at 4:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [52 favorites]