Copyright after death for works published in the 30s
April 18, 2022 7:26 AM Subscribe
I'm trying to track down who might hold the copyright for some novels published in the 1930s in the US. The author died in 1991 and had no children. I assume his possessions went to his surviving partner (he was gay) but I believe the partner is also deceased at this point (partner had a common name and was referred to as a "friend" so is hard to trace.) The copyrights were definitely renewed and are still active. What's the next step in researching this myself? I don't want to pay someone to do it.
Have you tried the search tools at the US Copyright office? https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&PAGE=First
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 7:48 AM on April 18, 2022
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 7:48 AM on April 18, 2022
Response by poster: I believe I used those tools to confirm that the copyrights had been renewed by the author when he was still living when the rights were set to expire, but unless I'm missing something, there isn't a way to use that to see who it might have passed to, especially for works originally copyrighted so long ago.
posted by needs more cowbell at 7:58 AM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by needs more cowbell at 7:58 AM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Have you contacted the agency which last represented the author? They should be maintaining contact information in the event there are any royalties to distribute.
posted by praemunire at 8:07 AM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 8:07 AM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Do you know how I might go about finding out who represented him? Are there trade publications where it would have been mentioned in pre-internet days? His last book was published in 1958 and he wasn't super active after that.
posted by needs more cowbell at 8:12 AM on April 18, 2022
posted by needs more cowbell at 8:12 AM on April 18, 2022
Let me preface this by saying that I am a librarian, but I am definitely not a copyright expert (or a lawyer).
Based on the wording, I presume these books are out of print. (If not, disregard all of this.) In a perfect world, the novelist bequeathed these rights to his partner, who in turn passed them on to his heir(s). However, I think it is (much?) more likely that no one knows who owns these rights and they are in legal limbo, which a copyright lawyer may or may not be able to resolve.
One option is to throw up your hands and declare them orphan works, which is not terribly helpful here in the U.S., but does mean you are unlikely to be sued if you wish to reproduce the works.
If you do wish to exercise due diligence, I would approach this like a genealogy question and attempt to obtain the following documents: the novelist's will (if it exists), the partner's death certificate and/or obituary, and the partner's will (if it exists). If you are very lucky, you may be able to use this information to locate a living heir.
Your local public library probably has an Ancestry.com subscription, and local courthouses and state libraries/archives may be able to help. But it is a lot of work, especially if you have never done this kind of research before, and you may get to the end and find that you still need a copyright lawyer.
posted by toastedcheese at 8:42 AM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Based on the wording, I presume these books are out of print. (If not, disregard all of this.) In a perfect world, the novelist bequeathed these rights to his partner, who in turn passed them on to his heir(s). However, I think it is (much?) more likely that no one knows who owns these rights and they are in legal limbo, which a copyright lawyer may or may not be able to resolve.
One option is to throw up your hands and declare them orphan works, which is not terribly helpful here in the U.S., but does mean you are unlikely to be sued if you wish to reproduce the works.
If you do wish to exercise due diligence, I would approach this like a genealogy question and attempt to obtain the following documents: the novelist's will (if it exists), the partner's death certificate and/or obituary, and the partner's will (if it exists). If you are very lucky, you may be able to use this information to locate a living heir.
Your local public library probably has an Ancestry.com subscription, and local courthouses and state libraries/archives may be able to help. But it is a lot of work, especially if you have never done this kind of research before, and you may get to the end and find that you still need a copyright lawyer.
posted by toastedcheese at 8:42 AM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
His last book was published in 1958
Does the publisher still exist in some form? They may have a record of the agency.
posted by praemunire at 8:49 AM on April 18, 2022
Does the publisher still exist in some form? They may have a record of the agency.
posted by praemunire at 8:49 AM on April 18, 2022
Response by poster: Based on the wording, I presume these books are out of print.
They are indeed out of print and quite hard to find used or in libraries.
Part of my motivation is due diligence should I want to try to share these works, but also the HathiTrust digital library seems to have scans/digitizations of some of them which are not accessible to the public due to copyright, and I believe that if it were possible to get written permission from whoever owns the copyright, HathiTrust's digital versions could be made public.
posted by needs more cowbell at 8:56 AM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
They are indeed out of print and quite hard to find used or in libraries.
Part of my motivation is due diligence should I want to try to share these works, but also the HathiTrust digital library seems to have scans/digitizations of some of them which are not accessible to the public due to copyright, and I believe that if it were possible to get written permission from whoever owns the copyright, HathiTrust's digital versions could be made public.
posted by needs more cowbell at 8:56 AM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
My experience an amateur trying to track down two books from 1927 is that it's really hard or quite expensive to be sure you're doing everything legally and not getting others in trouble. Genealogy software isn't a bad investment to try to find heirs. Talking to them has been really fun. (Though, it sounds like you may have already done this.) But, I haven't found an easy way to figure out whether or not the original rights-holders signed a contract granting exclusive rights to a publisher without paying money to someone, even if their heirs own the copyright. It's not a satisfying answer, but waiting a few years until they become public domain (at least in the US, assuming laws don't change) is the strategy I've sadly chosen, rather than paying thousands to either lawyers and or publishers for a hobby project. I look forward to reading other answers that might also be useful to me!
posted by eotvos at 9:11 AM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by eotvos at 9:11 AM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
waiting a few years until they become public domain (at least in the US, assuming laws don't change) is the strategy I've sadly chosen, rather than paying thousands to either lawyers and or publishers for a hobby project
This is probably correct for hobby projects, to be honest. Just throwing out what breadcrumbs I would look for if I were trying to do this rather than wait it out.
posted by praemunire at 9:40 AM on April 18, 2022
This is probably correct for hobby projects, to be honest. Just throwing out what breadcrumbs I would look for if I were trying to do this rather than wait it out.
posted by praemunire at 9:40 AM on April 18, 2022
Just adding that there are agencies for clearing publication rights like in this case. Presumably less expensive than the "copyright lawyers" cited above, but that's something you can find out.
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:09 AM on April 18, 2022
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:09 AM on April 18, 2022
Response by poster: I have some decent leads in terms of trying to get in touch with this person's extended family (of whom there are surviving members, though as a gay man in that era I don't know if he stayed in touch with family), so I will try that route, in addition to seeing if I can get a copy of his will and whether that spells anything out in terms of rights to his work.
I was hoping that perhaps there were some kind of database or registry or list of this particular thing, in the same way that there are databases of other copyright-related information, but it seems not.
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:48 AM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was hoping that perhaps there were some kind of database or registry or list of this particular thing, in the same way that there are databases of other copyright-related information, but it seems not.
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:48 AM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
There is the rightscenter.com database, but an account is very expensive. If you know someone who works at a film studio or talent agency, maybe they could do a look up for you?
posted by lewedswiver at 12:33 PM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by lewedswiver at 12:33 PM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
The closest I know of is WATCH, "a database of copyright contacts for writers, artists, and prominent people in other creative fields." But people have to contact WATCH and say they're the copyright holder, so it's pretty limited in terms of who is included.
posted by radiomayonnaise at 12:35 PM on April 18, 2022
posted by radiomayonnaise at 12:35 PM on April 18, 2022
I was hoping that perhaps there were some kind of database or registry or list of this particular thing
Librarian here though not a copyright librarian. Alas their mostly isn't. And depending on how well known or famous your deceased author was, it's possible he gave his IP rights to someone else who wasn't his partner. You can read this article on Orphan Works in the US which touches a bit on Hathi Trust and their place in a lot of this. There is often a new resurgence of interest in identifying rights holders (one example, 250 page document explaining why this is so messy) and what is a "true" orphan but I am unaware of the status of the most recent push for this. I would see about inquiring with the author's publisher (even though you say the author kept copyright) if they still exist.
And depending on what you want to do here, this could be an "ask forgiveness, not permission" situation where you do the thing you want to do, but also maintain vigilance in case people want to make a takedown request. That said, this is fine for online stuff (or, it's a tactic that people use depending on your risk tolerance) but it would be messier if you decided to republish in print form. You could also attempt to make these available through an existing publisher who might have the wherewithall to do a rights search or might decide to take a chance.
posted by jessamyn at 12:38 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Librarian here though not a copyright librarian. Alas their mostly isn't. And depending on how well known or famous your deceased author was, it's possible he gave his IP rights to someone else who wasn't his partner. You can read this article on Orphan Works in the US which touches a bit on Hathi Trust and their place in a lot of this. There is often a new resurgence of interest in identifying rights holders (one example, 250 page document explaining why this is so messy) and what is a "true" orphan but I am unaware of the status of the most recent push for this. I would see about inquiring with the author's publisher (even though you say the author kept copyright) if they still exist.
And depending on what you want to do here, this could be an "ask forgiveness, not permission" situation where you do the thing you want to do, but also maintain vigilance in case people want to make a takedown request. That said, this is fine for online stuff (or, it's a tactic that people use depending on your risk tolerance) but it would be messier if you decided to republish in print form. You could also attempt to make these available through an existing publisher who might have the wherewithall to do a rights search or might decide to take a chance.
posted by jessamyn at 12:38 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Another librarian who just wants to confirm that, yes, this can be super complicated, even when someone would actually be willing to pay the copyright holder.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:48 PM on April 18, 2022
posted by bluedaisy at 12:48 PM on April 18, 2022
Response by poster: "Ask forgiveness not permission" feels like a reasonable strategy in this case (my intent would be free digital distribution.)
It would be SO nice to just be able to have HathiTrust make their professional, already-done digitization public (by providing permission from the copyright holder), though. It feels tricky because if I'm going to do the former, it would probably be best not to try to poke the bear by contacting whatever conglomerate the publisher possibly got absorbed into (it morphed and merged and got bought out several times.) Trying to contact surviving extended family feels a bit less like poking the bear in this case.
posted by needs more cowbell at 1:05 PM on April 18, 2022
It would be SO nice to just be able to have HathiTrust make their professional, already-done digitization public (by providing permission from the copyright holder), though. It feels tricky because if I'm going to do the former, it would probably be best not to try to poke the bear by contacting whatever conglomerate the publisher possibly got absorbed into (it morphed and merged and got bought out several times.) Trying to contact surviving extended family feels a bit less like poking the bear in this case.
posted by needs more cowbell at 1:05 PM on April 18, 2022
"Ask forgiveness not permission" feels like a reasonable strategy in this case (my intent would be free digital distribution.)
I'm going to push back on this. When librarians are in a situation of orphan works and ask forgiveness, the context is usually digital distribution of works to a small group of students on campus, behind a password-protected site. There's an argument here for fair use.
Uploading a digital version of a book that is clearly protected by copyright (because of the year of the publication) to the internet is vastly different. It might not be that risky, in the sense that no one is maybe chasing this copyright, but the consequences could be very expensive for you.
Also, how good are you at finding stuff online? Is it possible that there are already free, digitized versions of these books online somewhere?
posted by bluedaisy at 1:52 PM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm going to push back on this. When librarians are in a situation of orphan works and ask forgiveness, the context is usually digital distribution of works to a small group of students on campus, behind a password-protected site. There's an argument here for fair use.
Uploading a digital version of a book that is clearly protected by copyright (because of the year of the publication) to the internet is vastly different. It might not be that risky, in the sense that no one is maybe chasing this copyright, but the consequences could be very expensive for you.
Also, how good are you at finding stuff online? Is it possible that there are already free, digitized versions of these books online somewhere?
posted by bluedaisy at 1:52 PM on April 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm going to push back on this.
Yes, I should qualify this. Doing something small scale that is unlikely to attract attention is one thing if the publisher is seriously out of business or otherwise defunct. If the publisher got absorbed into a bigger publisher, you should at least do the minimum of asking that giant megacorp if they care about this. Because yes, as bluedaisy says, getting sued is awful (and can be expensive). But yes also check places like the Internet Archive. If they are lending a copy of this book, there may be a digitized copy publicly available already.
posted by jessamyn at 3:12 PM on April 18, 2022
Yes, I should qualify this. Doing something small scale that is unlikely to attract attention is one thing if the publisher is seriously out of business or otherwise defunct. If the publisher got absorbed into a bigger publisher, you should at least do the minimum of asking that giant megacorp if they care about this. Because yes, as bluedaisy says, getting sued is awful (and can be expensive). But yes also check places like the Internet Archive. If they are lending a copy of this book, there may be a digitized copy publicly available already.
posted by jessamyn at 3:12 PM on April 18, 2022
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posted by needs more cowbell at 7:28 AM on April 18, 2022