Am I overthinking this interview feedback?
March 31, 2022 3:26 AM Subscribe
I have so far received the exact same feedback, 4 job interviews in a row. Can you help me understand it better/understand how to proceed from here?
I'm looking for work. It is a challenge as there aren't a lot of openings in my area. But I have applied for a number of jobs so far where I have been a very good fit in terms of experience, yet always receive the same feedback: we enjoyed meeting you etc, but you didn't have [insert specific experience].
Tortured metaphor alert: Say for example my current job is making white teapots and I want to apply for a job making blue teapots, I'm getting interview feedback that says, "well you've never specifically made blue teapots before, so we decided not to go ahead with you."
I need help understanding what to do with this feedback. I am applying for jobs extremely similar to my current job. Of course there are nuances of blue teapot making that might not be immediately obvious to someone who's only ever made white teapots; but someone who's only ever made white teapots would be perfectly capable of making blue ones.
The experience is always super-specific to the job in question, and not the kind of experience everyone is going to have unless they spent their entire entire career hyper-focused on blue teapots. It's also extremely evident from my CV what experience I do and do not have so it's like, why even interview me? I don't understand why it is a dealbreaker.
It's really annoying and disheartening wasting so much time preparing for interviews only to fall at the SAME hurdle 3 or 4 times in a row. I also find myself feeling paranoid that this kind of unhelpful feedback is just shorthand for them not liking me for other reasons. Specifically, I wonder if my race and accent are just putting people off. I work in a very white industry, and job ads always talk about how they specifically welcome applicants of colour; my interview panels are always 100% white, with native English-speaker accents. I sometimes go and look on LinkedIn to see who eventually got the post I applied for and it is ALWAYS a white person.
I'm probably being paranoid with that last bit. But I would appreciate people's thoughts on how to navigate the experience question. How can I convince people that my skills are transferable? I can't make white teapots for the rest of my life!
I'm looking for work. It is a challenge as there aren't a lot of openings in my area. But I have applied for a number of jobs so far where I have been a very good fit in terms of experience, yet always receive the same feedback: we enjoyed meeting you etc, but you didn't have [insert specific experience].
Tortured metaphor alert: Say for example my current job is making white teapots and I want to apply for a job making blue teapots, I'm getting interview feedback that says, "well you've never specifically made blue teapots before, so we decided not to go ahead with you."
I need help understanding what to do with this feedback. I am applying for jobs extremely similar to my current job. Of course there are nuances of blue teapot making that might not be immediately obvious to someone who's only ever made white teapots; but someone who's only ever made white teapots would be perfectly capable of making blue ones.
The experience is always super-specific to the job in question, and not the kind of experience everyone is going to have unless they spent their entire entire career hyper-focused on blue teapots. It's also extremely evident from my CV what experience I do and do not have so it's like, why even interview me? I don't understand why it is a dealbreaker.
It's really annoying and disheartening wasting so much time preparing for interviews only to fall at the SAME hurdle 3 or 4 times in a row. I also find myself feeling paranoid that this kind of unhelpful feedback is just shorthand for them not liking me for other reasons. Specifically, I wonder if my race and accent are just putting people off. I work in a very white industry, and job ads always talk about how they specifically welcome applicants of colour; my interview panels are always 100% white, with native English-speaker accents. I sometimes go and look on LinkedIn to see who eventually got the post I applied for and it is ALWAYS a white person.
I'm probably being paranoid with that last bit. But I would appreciate people's thoughts on how to navigate the experience question. How can I convince people that my skills are transferable? I can't make white teapots for the rest of my life!
Could you reply to the interviewers and ask how you could better capture that you do, in fact, have that experience?
I'd also leave yourself room to say that possibly, the people that ended up with the job happened to have 5 years of experience to your 2, in the same field. It's possible, especially with programming adjacent jobs, that length of experience in the specific thing is key, not only related experience.
posted by bbqturtle at 3:51 AM on March 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'd also leave yourself room to say that possibly, the people that ended up with the job happened to have 5 years of experience to your 2, in the same field. It's possible, especially with programming adjacent jobs, that length of experience in the specific thing is key, not only related experience.
posted by bbqturtle at 3:51 AM on March 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
I would suggest that you find a way to address during the interview your lack of blue teapot experience. For instance, "I know I don't have blue teapot experience, but I have done this research/class/study to prepare for the transition, which I think will be minimal because ..." Go into the next interview with a short narrative in your head and find a way to insert it at the tail end of another question or during your closing comments.
posted by eleslie at 4:17 AM on March 31, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by eleslie at 4:17 AM on March 31, 2022 [21 favorites]
Two things:
1 - This is the kind of thing that I usually address proactively in a cover letter or in a 'statement of motivation'. Similar to what eleslie said, you could say (in a cover/intro letter) that you are really thrilled about blue teapots, and you think you're uniquely positioned to get into their production because of *all your experience* with white ones...
2 - I'm currently in the process of being hired by a company. Due to company policy (and maybe some regulations) they are required to post the job publicly and externally before they can proceed with hiring me for it. They may also feel the need to do some interviews with other candidates so that their diligence is done. Here's the thing -- the job posting that they have made for my position is *very* specific and happens to match my resume *almost exactly*. I can definitely see them interviewing someone like you, getting as far as the interview step, then deciding not to proceed because they *already know who they are going to hire* and it's not you.
(2) is to say 'maybe this is nothing to do with you *at all* and you should just keep trying without taking it too personally. but it's a big maybe.
I don't know much about the race/accent issue. If you happen to be in the EU software market, in explicitly international companies, I think this is probably *not* the reason, based on years of experience there, but I don't have enough context on your situation to provide any input on that.
posted by jpziller at 4:24 AM on March 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
1 - This is the kind of thing that I usually address proactively in a cover letter or in a 'statement of motivation'. Similar to what eleslie said, you could say (in a cover/intro letter) that you are really thrilled about blue teapots, and you think you're uniquely positioned to get into their production because of *all your experience* with white ones...
2 - I'm currently in the process of being hired by a company. Due to company policy (and maybe some regulations) they are required to post the job publicly and externally before they can proceed with hiring me for it. They may also feel the need to do some interviews with other candidates so that their diligence is done. Here's the thing -- the job posting that they have made for my position is *very* specific and happens to match my resume *almost exactly*. I can definitely see them interviewing someone like you, getting as far as the interview step, then deciding not to proceed because they *already know who they are going to hire* and it's not you.
(2) is to say 'maybe this is nothing to do with you *at all* and you should just keep trying without taking it too personally. but it's a big maybe.
I don't know much about the race/accent issue. If you happen to be in the EU software market, in explicitly international companies, I think this is probably *not* the reason, based on years of experience there, but I don't have enough context on your situation to provide any input on that.
posted by jpziller at 4:24 AM on March 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
we enjoyed meeting you etc, but you didn't have [insert specific experience].
Candidates often hear feedback like this and interpret it as "they don't think I'm qualified," when what companies are often trying (poorly) to convey is "you were qualified, but we had other candidates that were more qualified." It's not a criticism of the candidate so much as it's a statement about the candidate pool broadly. This problem is exacerbated in times like these, when lots of people are moving jobs, and application numbers are higher than average.
I sometimes go and look on LinkedIn to see who eventually got the post I applied for and it is ALWAYS a white person.
There is a lot of racism in hiring processes. But more critically, there's a lot of structural racism that impacts talent pools. If White candidates have had access to opportunities that only more recently have opened up to candidates of color, it is likely that, on average, White candidates will be seen as more qualified. Candidates with higher qualifications are seen as lower risk hires, and less likely to fail on the job.
That's why things like antiracism training for hiring managers is important (so they're aware of issues like these and can compensate), and why the shift to competency-based hiring is so essential (because it focuses on whether candidates can do the job they will be asked to do, not the jobs that they've had access to earlier in their careers).
When you're in an interview, the best thing you can do to increase your chances is to make sure you're focusing less on what you have done, and more on what you can do. If you only have experience painting teapots white, but you've done your research and know that the company sells them in red, white, and blue, make sure you're telling the hiring manager explicitly that your experience painting them white is exactly the same as you would do when painting them red and blue, etc. This also highlights your knowledge of the business, which is an important indicator that you're serious and have prepared for the hiring process.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 4:47 AM on March 31, 2022 [30 favorites]
Candidates often hear feedback like this and interpret it as "they don't think I'm qualified," when what companies are often trying (poorly) to convey is "you were qualified, but we had other candidates that were more qualified." It's not a criticism of the candidate so much as it's a statement about the candidate pool broadly. This problem is exacerbated in times like these, when lots of people are moving jobs, and application numbers are higher than average.
I sometimes go and look on LinkedIn to see who eventually got the post I applied for and it is ALWAYS a white person.
There is a lot of racism in hiring processes. But more critically, there's a lot of structural racism that impacts talent pools. If White candidates have had access to opportunities that only more recently have opened up to candidates of color, it is likely that, on average, White candidates will be seen as more qualified. Candidates with higher qualifications are seen as lower risk hires, and less likely to fail on the job.
That's why things like antiracism training for hiring managers is important (so they're aware of issues like these and can compensate), and why the shift to competency-based hiring is so essential (because it focuses on whether candidates can do the job they will be asked to do, not the jobs that they've had access to earlier in their careers).
When you're in an interview, the best thing you can do to increase your chances is to make sure you're focusing less on what you have done, and more on what you can do. If you only have experience painting teapots white, but you've done your research and know that the company sells them in red, white, and blue, make sure you're telling the hiring manager explicitly that your experience painting them white is exactly the same as you would do when painting them red and blue, etc. This also highlights your knowledge of the business, which is an important indicator that you're serious and have prepared for the hiring process.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 4:47 AM on March 31, 2022 [30 favorites]
Ensure your adaptability, your willingness to learn, and the speed at which you can learn is referenced (organically) right throughout your CV and cover letter, with concrete examples of times you have covered/taken on additional responsibility/worked on new things successfully.
posted by mani at 5:03 AM on March 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by mani at 5:03 AM on March 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Some good advice above - the most important takeaway, I think, is that this can mean any number of things and trying to figure out what it means in any one situation is just going to drive you up the wall (and what NotMyselfRightNow says is really important - "you didn't have [specific experience]" doesn't mean "we don't think you could possibly have succeeded in this job because you don't have [specific experience]," it just means "we think one of the other candidates is more likely to be successful in this job, in part because they have more [specific experience]"). And yes, racism is in play but not necessarily in any individual hiring process.
One thing I think you can do is address the white/blue teapot issue up front in the interview, and ask the interviewer specifically what their concerns would be about hiring a white teapot person for a blue teapot job (or ask them whether they have any concerns about you as a candidate in general, but that can put people on the spot). Like, "As you can see, my experience is mostly in white teapots - how long have you worked in blue teapots? What do you especially like about blue teapots? Do you see any areas that would be particularly challenging to someone moving from white teapots to blue teapots?"
Honestly, if you ask questions like that, you'll most likely get vague answers that don't help you much. But you might plant a seed with the interviewer like, "oh yeah, white teapots and blue teapots *are* basically the same" or "hmm, maybe this person's skills in white teapots would translate well to that new light blue teapot project we have coming up."
Or maybe they'll say something useful like, "In the past, we've found that people from the white teapot industry have trouble getting used to how much blue teapot work is focused on pigment matching," and then you can go on and on about your passion for pigment matching.
But also yeah, some hiring processes get weirdly hung up on overly-specific things. I working at a growing tech company and have interviewed A LOT of candidates in the last 6 months or so and some of the things my colleagues think are important drive me crazy!
posted by mskyle at 5:08 AM on March 31, 2022 [13 favorites]
One thing I think you can do is address the white/blue teapot issue up front in the interview, and ask the interviewer specifically what their concerns would be about hiring a white teapot person for a blue teapot job (or ask them whether they have any concerns about you as a candidate in general, but that can put people on the spot). Like, "As you can see, my experience is mostly in white teapots - how long have you worked in blue teapots? What do you especially like about blue teapots? Do you see any areas that would be particularly challenging to someone moving from white teapots to blue teapots?"
Honestly, if you ask questions like that, you'll most likely get vague answers that don't help you much. But you might plant a seed with the interviewer like, "oh yeah, white teapots and blue teapots *are* basically the same" or "hmm, maybe this person's skills in white teapots would translate well to that new light blue teapot project we have coming up."
Or maybe they'll say something useful like, "In the past, we've found that people from the white teapot industry have trouble getting used to how much blue teapot work is focused on pigment matching," and then you can go on and on about your passion for pigment matching.
But also yeah, some hiring processes get weirdly hung up on overly-specific things. I working at a growing tech company and have interviewed A LOT of candidates in the last 6 months or so and some of the things my colleagues think are important drive me crazy!
posted by mskyle at 5:08 AM on March 31, 2022 [13 favorites]
This definitely could be a demographic thing but yeah, it's also really normal as a shorthand for "we knew it would be hard to get blue teapot expertise so tried to be open to the possibility of hiring someone without it, but in the interview process we found someone who did have it, or who gave us really good answers that led us to believe they'd develop it quickly, so we liked you but you just weren't our best candidate." Or, as others have noted, there's the whole internal hire requirement-to-post-the-job thing.
You could try to address this more proactively in the interviews. If there's any way to get blue-teapot experience through volunteering or as a personal project, that might also be worth doing. You may not need a lot of it, just enough to tick the box of someone somewhere in the hiring processes who is hung up on wanting someone with some blue teapot experience.
This might also be a scenario where you look up a few Blue Teapot Makers if you have any in your network, and ask them for some advice on how to break into the blue teapot field. In my own field, if someone asked me how to break in, while I wouldn't have advice for *exactly* what I do, I have a really easy and straightforward suggestion for how to get volunteer experience in pink teapot making, and the insider info that in an interview situation you can play up your pink teapot experience as transferable to blue teapots in XYZ ways that are usually convincing to an interviewer. If you didn't happen to know the pastel teapot world, you probably wouldn't realize that pink teapot making is a good leg-up into blue teapot making and a lot easier to start in a volunteer capacity. There may be expertise like that out for you - might be worth seeking it out!
posted by Stacey at 5:21 AM on March 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
You could try to address this more proactively in the interviews. If there's any way to get blue-teapot experience through volunteering or as a personal project, that might also be worth doing. You may not need a lot of it, just enough to tick the box of someone somewhere in the hiring processes who is hung up on wanting someone with some blue teapot experience.
This might also be a scenario where you look up a few Blue Teapot Makers if you have any in your network, and ask them for some advice on how to break into the blue teapot field. In my own field, if someone asked me how to break in, while I wouldn't have advice for *exactly* what I do, I have a really easy and straightforward suggestion for how to get volunteer experience in pink teapot making, and the insider info that in an interview situation you can play up your pink teapot experience as transferable to blue teapots in XYZ ways that are usually convincing to an interviewer. If you didn't happen to know the pastel teapot world, you probably wouldn't realize that pink teapot making is a good leg-up into blue teapot making and a lot easier to start in a volunteer capacity. There may be expertise like that out for you - might be worth seeking it out!
posted by Stacey at 5:21 AM on March 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
Is it always the same blue teapot? Or something different every time?
Regarding the racism aspect - is there any chance there are networking groups for your profession specifically for people from your background or for larger marginalized communities? Something like that might help with finding connections to better hirers, and possibly also mentorship on the hiring process and how to break in to the blue teapot world.
Have you practiced interviews with someone who can give you feedback? People often have lots of little quirks or tendencies they're not aware of, so taking a look at that might be helpful in terms of making a strong enough impression to overcome whatever the interviewers' biases or preferences are.
posted by trig at 5:48 AM on March 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Regarding the racism aspect - is there any chance there are networking groups for your profession specifically for people from your background or for larger marginalized communities? Something like that might help with finding connections to better hirers, and possibly also mentorship on the hiring process and how to break in to the blue teapot world.
Have you practiced interviews with someone who can give you feedback? People often have lots of little quirks or tendencies they're not aware of, so taking a look at that might be helpful in terms of making a strong enough impression to overcome whatever the interviewers' biases or preferences are.
posted by trig at 5:48 AM on March 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
So; "I need help understanding what to do with this feedback. I am applying for jobs extremely similar to my current job. Of course there are nuances of blue teapot making that might not be immediately obvious to someone who's only ever made white teapots; but someone who's only ever made white teapots would be perfectly capable of making blue ones."
The thing is, after years of being in my industry, it becomes clear that this is not really a true statement. A white teapot maker is NOT always perfectly capable of making blue ones.
If you are projecting this belief in interviews, then those interviewing will assume you don't appreciate the nuances of blue teapots, and don't understand that not all makers of white teapots CAN make the transition to making blue ones. And therefore, you won't be able to make the transition.
For example, and a real example. I had for years interviewed for consulting companies, based on my real-world experience working in the actual industry that they consult in, and are selling their expertise in regards to. I was always rebuffed such that "Well, you don't have consulting experience.."
Though, SURELY, it was more important that I actually had YEARS of actual, hands-on experience doing what they wanted to consult on doing.
Well, no.
Later on, when I did get a job for a consulting firm, and hired people with actual, real experience for jobs, I began to understand that they always couldn't handle the change from being a full time employee to a consultant - many different reasons, from cultural to how they approached meetings, discussions, problem solving.. which were all solid, if they were a full time employee, but off because they were a consultant.
Which is odd, because, it's the SAME job, right? Well, sort of, but not really. I was able to make the transition, but was always fighting against my biases for how I approached things as a non-consultant.
So, maybe doing some blue teapot personal projects on your own that you can point to, and then talk about the gap between white and blue teapot making, and the challenges in bridging that gap.
posted by rich at 6:08 AM on March 31, 2022 [14 favorites]
The thing is, after years of being in my industry, it becomes clear that this is not really a true statement. A white teapot maker is NOT always perfectly capable of making blue ones.
If you are projecting this belief in interviews, then those interviewing will assume you don't appreciate the nuances of blue teapots, and don't understand that not all makers of white teapots CAN make the transition to making blue ones. And therefore, you won't be able to make the transition.
For example, and a real example. I had for years interviewed for consulting companies, based on my real-world experience working in the actual industry that they consult in, and are selling their expertise in regards to. I was always rebuffed such that "Well, you don't have consulting experience.."
Though, SURELY, it was more important that I actually had YEARS of actual, hands-on experience doing what they wanted to consult on doing.
Well, no.
Later on, when I did get a job for a consulting firm, and hired people with actual, real experience for jobs, I began to understand that they always couldn't handle the change from being a full time employee to a consultant - many different reasons, from cultural to how they approached meetings, discussions, problem solving.. which were all solid, if they were a full time employee, but off because they were a consultant.
Which is odd, because, it's the SAME job, right? Well, sort of, but not really. I was able to make the transition, but was always fighting against my biases for how I approached things as a non-consultant.
So, maybe doing some blue teapot personal projects on your own that you can point to, and then talk about the gap between white and blue teapot making, and the challenges in bridging that gap.
posted by rich at 6:08 AM on March 31, 2022 [14 favorites]
Middle aged cishet white guy here. I had a professional role some years back in which I participated in hiring salespeople. I was also hiring for a role in my own (sales support) team. The recruiter gave me a heads up that a sales candidate was coming in who would be a good fit for my team. This was accurate. The person was (and is!) brilliant, engaging, more than experienced for the roles we were hiring. She was (and is!) also a Black woman.
The group of hiring managers sat down at the end of the day to review candidates; we had done round robin interviewing, so each of us had met each of about 10 candidates. When we got to this person, everyone went around the table and said, "Great candidate, but not a fit for my team." I hired her, and I felt like the top draft pick was still on the board when I made the 15th pick.
This is how racism shows up in these settings. All professionals manage risk in one form or another. Most people subconsciously attach judgments of risk to others. It's subtle and pervasive.
There's a real range of opinions out there concerning affinity groups. I'm not qualified to speak to that. What I did hear from my Black employee was that her own network as an HBCU alum has been hugely important in her career. She was quite generous in sharing some views into that network with me.
On that basis, I would strongly recommend you focus on finding and cultivating mentors who share some important features of your identity. They will have a depth of understanding, and strategies to recommend, that far exceed what most of us here are able to suggest.
posted by sockshaveholes at 6:16 AM on March 31, 2022 [13 favorites]
The group of hiring managers sat down at the end of the day to review candidates; we had done round robin interviewing, so each of us had met each of about 10 candidates. When we got to this person, everyone went around the table and said, "Great candidate, but not a fit for my team." I hired her, and I felt like the top draft pick was still on the board when I made the 15th pick.
This is how racism shows up in these settings. All professionals manage risk in one form or another. Most people subconsciously attach judgments of risk to others. It's subtle and pervasive.
There's a real range of opinions out there concerning affinity groups. I'm not qualified to speak to that. What I did hear from my Black employee was that her own network as an HBCU alum has been hugely important in her career. She was quite generous in sharing some views into that network with me.
On that basis, I would strongly recommend you focus on finding and cultivating mentors who share some important features of your identity. They will have a depth of understanding, and strategies to recommend, that far exceed what most of us here are able to suggest.
posted by sockshaveholes at 6:16 AM on March 31, 2022 [13 favorites]
OF COURSE it’s race related, everyone please stop gaslighting by talking about teapots. Do you all agree that hiring disparities by race exist? Of course you do. THIS IS WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE UP CLOSE.
Here are some culturally competent suggestions:
OP, if you’re from a background where humbleness is valued, try being a bit more self-promoting (especially if you’re in the US). In your next interview, talk really directly about teapots and present yourself as a teapot expert who has made all different kinds of teapots. Try being 30% more “braggy” about your experience.
See if you can publish some stuff about your area of expertise. Twitter, Instagram, or a blog. Keep it short, pithy, professional, insightful. Show what you can do and how you think. Make sure it’s very searchable with your professional name, and when you have at least 10 decent posts, mention it on your CV.
Also try leveraging a personal connection for a referral to a job- research who works there, who’s on the panel, and see if you know anyone in common. If you know someone who knows someone, send a message “Hi! I saw you know Nick Bee. What’s he like? He looks really impressive. I’m applying for a job at his company.” If the person knows him and likes you, they may put in a good word. I wouldn’t ask directly for this to be done though as that will annoy people.
It’s not your fault you have higher and more hurdles to jump over. And you’re NOT paranoid. You’ll find something. Good luck !
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:38 AM on March 31, 2022 [19 favorites]
Here are some culturally competent suggestions:
OP, if you’re from a background where humbleness is valued, try being a bit more self-promoting (especially if you’re in the US). In your next interview, talk really directly about teapots and present yourself as a teapot expert who has made all different kinds of teapots. Try being 30% more “braggy” about your experience.
See if you can publish some stuff about your area of expertise. Twitter, Instagram, or a blog. Keep it short, pithy, professional, insightful. Show what you can do and how you think. Make sure it’s very searchable with your professional name, and when you have at least 10 decent posts, mention it on your CV.
Also try leveraging a personal connection for a referral to a job- research who works there, who’s on the panel, and see if you know anyone in common. If you know someone who knows someone, send a message “Hi! I saw you know Nick Bee. What’s he like? He looks really impressive. I’m applying for a job at his company.” If the person knows him and likes you, they may put in a good word. I wouldn’t ask directly for this to be done though as that will annoy people.
It’s not your fault you have higher and more hurdles to jump over. And you’re NOT paranoid. You’ll find something. Good luck !
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:38 AM on March 31, 2022 [19 favorites]
Demographic bias definitely occurred to me when I read your description. You can rarely tell in any single case, and it's true that jobs can generally only go to one person, so there tend to be lots of qualified people that get repeatedly turned down for things. Getting turned down for four fits that seemed fine to you isn't necessarily out of line with other people's experiences, I don't think. But I wanted to say I don't think you're being paranoid for wondering about this. I don't really have a solution for you, other than to keep at it, because I believe you'll get there eventually.
The one time I was on a hiring committee, I did see a candidate become an instant "no" for a reason he was never going to be told about: during the interview, he repeatedly interrupted and talked over members of the panel, including the woman who would have been his boss. I guess that is one thing you can do: make sure there are not unmentionable reasons other than bias on their part that could be in play.
posted by eirias at 7:06 AM on March 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
The one time I was on a hiring committee, I did see a candidate become an instant "no" for a reason he was never going to be told about: during the interview, he repeatedly interrupted and talked over members of the panel, including the woman who would have been his boss. I guess that is one thing you can do: make sure there are not unmentionable reasons other than bias on their part that could be in play.
posted by eirias at 7:06 AM on March 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you; these are very interesting answers and I appreciate all the advice.
To answer this: Is it always the same blue teapot?
No, it's always different and extremely specific to the org in question. I don't have experience in doing X thing, because I don't already work at this particular company or the very small number of sister companies all focused on this very specific thing. That would be the only way I would already have this experience.
I like the idea of proactively noting that I don't have experience in a particular thing and demonstrating how I would address the challenge. It's not that I don't do that at all, but I haven't done it consistently; I will consciously do so before it comes up in my next job interview. :)
posted by unicorn chaser at 7:15 AM on March 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
To answer this: Is it always the same blue teapot?
No, it's always different and extremely specific to the org in question. I don't have experience in doing X thing, because I don't already work at this particular company or the very small number of sister companies all focused on this very specific thing. That would be the only way I would already have this experience.
I like the idea of proactively noting that I don't have experience in a particular thing and demonstrating how I would address the challenge. It's not that I don't do that at all, but I haven't done it consistently; I will consciously do so before it comes up in my next job interview. :)
posted by unicorn chaser at 7:15 AM on March 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Unless you are in a country or industry known for giving candid feedback to job seekers, I would not presume this is a true and real reason. “We are going with someone else with more/different experience” is a standard line.
It could for sure be racism. Have you ever done any practice interview questions with a trusted colleague experienced in your field? Perhaps they could give you insight into your interviewing style.
posted by bluedaisy at 7:19 AM on March 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
It could for sure be racism. Have you ever done any practice interview questions with a trusted colleague experienced in your field? Perhaps they could give you insight into your interviewing style.
posted by bluedaisy at 7:19 AM on March 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
No, it's always different and extremely specific to the org in question. I don't have experience in doing X thing, because I don't already work at this particular company or the very small number of sister companies all focused on this very specific thing. That would be the only way I would already have this experience.
To me this lends credence to the theory that these hiring committees have an internal candidate already in mind and are only having interviews to satisfy some sort of legal requirement, or just on the off chance that someone external absolutely blows them away (or really lowballs themselves on the salary question). I wonder if given the racial angle you mention these orgs have a commitment to interview X% minority candidates for their hires. This is a good practice in the big picture, but shitty for folks like you who end up on interviews for roles they don't really have a good chance of getting.
Practice interviews with folks in your field are a great idea.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:24 AM on March 31, 2022 [8 favorites]
To me this lends credence to the theory that these hiring committees have an internal candidate already in mind and are only having interviews to satisfy some sort of legal requirement, or just on the off chance that someone external absolutely blows them away (or really lowballs themselves on the salary question). I wonder if given the racial angle you mention these orgs have a commitment to interview X% minority candidates for their hires. This is a good practice in the big picture, but shitty for folks like you who end up on interviews for roles they don't really have a good chance of getting.
Practice interviews with folks in your field are a great idea.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:24 AM on March 31, 2022 [8 favorites]
To answer this: Is it always the same blue teapot?
No, it's always different and extremely specific to the org in question.
One approach you could take is to bring that up as a question during the interview: "At every organization I've worked there have always been some specific ways of doing things that are unique to that organization. I'd like to hear about what sorts of tools/processes you use that maybe I haven't seen before" and then, when they tell you, be all "interesting, reminds me of the time I started to work at [current employer] and had to get up to speed on [magenta-teal teapots]. I actually really enjoyed that because..." or "fascinating, here's some technical question that shows I understand what the challenges would be" or whatever.
posted by trig at 7:27 AM on March 31, 2022 [15 favorites]
No, it's always different and extremely specific to the org in question.
One approach you could take is to bring that up as a question during the interview: "At every organization I've worked there have always been some specific ways of doing things that are unique to that organization. I'd like to hear about what sorts of tools/processes you use that maybe I haven't seen before" and then, when they tell you, be all "interesting, reminds me of the time I started to work at [current employer] and had to get up to speed on [magenta-teal teapots]. I actually really enjoyed that because..." or "fascinating, here's some technical question that shows I understand what the challenges would be" or whatever.
posted by trig at 7:27 AM on March 31, 2022 [15 favorites]
I *just* had the same thing happen to me. 20+ years in IT, with 10+ years of increasing responsibility. But oh, we want a Director who has experience with administering *specific ticketing system.* Doesn't matter that I know other ticketing systems like the back of my hand. I've been frustrated with even the application process - "How many years in leadership?" I rock it. "How many years using *tool I never heard of*?" Ugh.
Is it because I'm female? This is what I wonder. Obviously not in the application aspect - but when I actually talk to someone? Yes, I wonder.
Marking as favorite - it is good to know I am not alone here. What I have tried - "I have used *ticketing system* but I've found it is unnecessarily complex when it comes to reporting. I wouldn't have a problem administering it, but no, I don't have a ton of experience there." That didn't fly, for the record.
posted by routergirl at 8:08 AM on March 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Is it because I'm female? This is what I wonder. Obviously not in the application aspect - but when I actually talk to someone? Yes, I wonder.
Marking as favorite - it is good to know I am not alone here. What I have tried - "I have used *ticketing system* but I've found it is unnecessarily complex when it comes to reporting. I wouldn't have a problem administering it, but no, I don't have a ton of experience there." That didn't fly, for the record.
posted by routergirl at 8:08 AM on March 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Recruiter with 25 years' experience here. Let me suggest two points to make at the close of your interviews, by way of 'buttoning-up' the conversation:
1. Express that you can do the job and that you want to do the job. There are many ways to say it. It matters less how you say it and more that you say it.
2. Test the employer with this question: "Based on our conversation so far, what are the challenges you think I would face to being successful here?"
Notice, first, the assumptive nature of the question. You expect to be successful. You just want to know what the challenges will be.
Second, the phrase "conversation so far" pushes the employer to focus on what they know vs. what they might imagine or guess.
Third, this is the point where, ostensibly, you should hear the objections that you are now getting only after the fact. It is also an opportunity to diplomatically rebut or correct any misimpressions.
posted by John Borrowman at 8:27 AM on March 31, 2022 [28 favorites]
1. Express that you can do the job and that you want to do the job. There are many ways to say it. It matters less how you say it and more that you say it.
2. Test the employer with this question: "Based on our conversation so far, what are the challenges you think I would face to being successful here?"
Notice, first, the assumptive nature of the question. You expect to be successful. You just want to know what the challenges will be.
Second, the phrase "conversation so far" pushes the employer to focus on what they know vs. what they might imagine or guess.
Third, this is the point where, ostensibly, you should hear the objections that you are now getting only after the fact. It is also an opportunity to diplomatically rebut or correct any misimpressions.
posted by John Borrowman at 8:27 AM on March 31, 2022 [28 favorites]
As a dollop of encouragement, let me say that whether interviewing job candidates or seeking new positions myself, I've several times noted the phenomenon where suddenly someone gets several offers all at once. In my head cannon, there's a group of applicants seeking the same type of opportunity within [the community, industry specialization, or whatever] and, at some point, you'll be the clear best option for all the teapot-making jobs and will get to choose the offer that is most attractive to you instead of taking the first one by default. Good hunting to you!
posted by carmicha at 8:35 AM on March 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by carmicha at 8:35 AM on March 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
People have already given some good advice, but one thing I haven't seen-
Since I remember from your previous posts you're a woman, unless you're 100% heteronormative in how your come off, it's also possible you could benefit from making a conscious effort to act more heteronormative, which I know is lame but - at one point both a friend an I, both women who are not exactly particularly feminine in our affect or behavior, were getting lots of interviews, but never the job. My friend then started doing an act during interviews -being more bubbly, changing the tone of her voice to be higher and enthusiastic, and...she got a job soon after. At her suggestion I started doing the same, and soon after finally landed a job.
Of course, that's just two data points, and it could have been a coincidence, but my hunch is that many people (men and women) prefer female candidates to be a certain way, even if they aren't conscious of it. It's what solve the race issue, but can't hurt to try in your next interviews if you think this might apply to you. Good luck, interviewing sucks!
posted by coffeecat at 8:58 AM on March 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Since I remember from your previous posts you're a woman, unless you're 100% heteronormative in how your come off, it's also possible you could benefit from making a conscious effort to act more heteronormative, which I know is lame but - at one point both a friend an I, both women who are not exactly particularly feminine in our affect or behavior, were getting lots of interviews, but never the job. My friend then started doing an act during interviews -being more bubbly, changing the tone of her voice to be higher and enthusiastic, and...she got a job soon after. At her suggestion I started doing the same, and soon after finally landed a job.
Of course, that's just two data points, and it could have been a coincidence, but my hunch is that many people (men and women) prefer female candidates to be a certain way, even if they aren't conscious of it. It's what solve the race issue, but can't hurt to try in your next interviews if you think this might apply to you. Good luck, interviewing sucks!
posted by coffeecat at 8:58 AM on March 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I strongly second nouvelle personae's comment. Especially the part about being 30% more braggy and confident than you are currently being. As a brown woman who is under 5 ft tall, this is a lesson I had to learn quite early in life! And there have been some memorable occasions when coworkers' and employers' responses to me have been dramatically different even just hours apart over the same issue, after I remembered to shed my normal self-effacing demeanor and adopt my " I Own This Whole Room" professional persona.
This is not to say their treatment of you is your fault. It is 100% theirs. However, since you are the only person you can control, it becomes your responsibility to figuratively smack them over their heads and force them to notice how fucking competent and awesome you are.
(Also I agree with folks who are saying that many times the employer already has a candidate in mind and what they are telling you is not a result of your shortcomings.)
posted by MiraK at 9:23 AM on March 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is not to say their treatment of you is your fault. It is 100% theirs. However, since you are the only person you can control, it becomes your responsibility to figuratively smack them over their heads and force them to notice how fucking competent and awesome you are.
(Also I agree with folks who are saying that many times the employer already has a candidate in mind and what they are telling you is not a result of your shortcomings.)
posted by MiraK at 9:23 AM on March 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
Two more concrete tactics:
1. Before an interview, identify your weak points based on the specific job description. Come up with concrete talking points to proactively advocate for why you can not only do the job, but excel in such a way that address your weak points. You already know where you're likely to be dinged, so don't wait for the interviewing committee to bring it up, face it head on in order to remove doubt from the interviewer's mind. It could be examples of where you have successfully learned on the job and even went on to flourish in past roles, how a new perspective on X saved the company time or money, and so forth.
2. Line up trusted peers and practice your talking points in mock interviews. Ideally you want someone who will give you real constructive feedback and advice. You don't want someone who will be encouraging and positive no matter how well the mock interview goes. Then just keep practicing until you feel natural and confident in your ability to convey your competencies and interest in taking on a role that involves New Experience X.
2a. If you don't have trusted peers you can do this with, then I would actually work on this as well. Peer networks are invaluable in one's career in all sorts of ways and you will always be better off with a peer network than without one.
posted by Goblin Barbarian at 10:20 AM on March 31, 2022
1. Before an interview, identify your weak points based on the specific job description. Come up with concrete talking points to proactively advocate for why you can not only do the job, but excel in such a way that address your weak points. You already know where you're likely to be dinged, so don't wait for the interviewing committee to bring it up, face it head on in order to remove doubt from the interviewer's mind. It could be examples of where you have successfully learned on the job and even went on to flourish in past roles, how a new perspective on X saved the company time or money, and so forth.
2. Line up trusted peers and practice your talking points in mock interviews. Ideally you want someone who will give you real constructive feedback and advice. You don't want someone who will be encouraging and positive no matter how well the mock interview goes. Then just keep practicing until you feel natural and confident in your ability to convey your competencies and interest in taking on a role that involves New Experience X.
2a. If you don't have trusted peers you can do this with, then I would actually work on this as well. Peer networks are invaluable in one's career in all sorts of ways and you will always be better off with a peer network than without one.
posted by Goblin Barbarian at 10:20 AM on March 31, 2022
Another possibility, and it depends on the industry you're in, is that these were not real postings to begin with - they had an internal candidate who literally did the exact job already lined up, but they wanted to see who was out there anyways (or are forced through perversion of equal hiring practices to advertise). Except, in the end, they just wanted the blue-teapot-maker they already had. So of course they didn't hire you, they hired the person who was already doing the job. Which is frustrating, but ultimately not about you at all.
posted by epanalepsis at 10:26 AM on March 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by epanalepsis at 10:26 AM on March 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
I worked on a hiring committee recently. We had three candidates in our final pool, two of whom had good experience that would have made them good at the job. But one of them had specific experience working with precisely the same kind of organization as us, which gave them the edge.
It really was as simple as this: all three candidates were good fits, but one had experience that matched the role perfectly and the other two had experience that matched about 85%.
I would never want the candidates who weren't hired to think it was because of a flaw in their personality or (much worse) because of their ethnicity.
(For example: if a law firm was hiring an administrative assistant and had three candidates with adiminstrative experience, but one of them had actually worked at a law firm before, it would make a difference.)
posted by tacodave at 8:24 PM on March 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
It really was as simple as this: all three candidates were good fits, but one had experience that matched the role perfectly and the other two had experience that matched about 85%.
I would never want the candidates who weren't hired to think it was because of a flaw in their personality or (much worse) because of their ethnicity.
(For example: if a law firm was hiring an administrative assistant and had three candidates with adiminstrative experience, but one of them had actually worked at a law firm before, it would make a difference.)
posted by tacodave at 8:24 PM on March 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's amazing how little information hiring committees have about the candidates they are trying to decide between. Something as simple as adding "but I'm really interested in making the transition to working with blue teapots" can entirely change my emotional takeaway from a question ("oh, they have no experience in our main area, maybe not a great match" to "hm, this job is exactly what they are looking for and they will be motivated to figure it out"). Address those concerns head on whenever you can.
posted by Lady Li at 4:08 PM on April 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Lady Li at 4:08 PM on April 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I'm probably being paranoid with that last bit.
No, not really. It's definitely something to be aware of. You don't mention your age, but your example is also a common way of filtering-out older workers.
That said, employers can also be extremely narrowly-focused on things like experience and are unable to even imagine that similar work experience is applicable/transferable to the position they're trying to fill.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:50 AM on March 31, 2022 [18 favorites]