Been taking too much melatonin. Suggestions on healthy alternatives?
February 22, 2022 9:46 AM Subscribe
I’m taking too much melatonin. In the past, instead of taking so much, I’ve tried taking CBD and Valerian Root, but neither has had a noticeable effect. Is it because I’m not taking enough? Does smoking a moderate amount of weed on the weekends have an effect on why CBD isn’t working? Lastly, are there any other healthy alternatives you’d recommend other than / in addition to CBD and Valerian Root?
Take less. Not being glib. Research shows the correct amount of melatonin is less than 1mg. 0.3-0.9 I think? I take literally one or sometimes two drops out of a 1ml:3mg dropper.
Melatonin works if you have legitimate sleep disorder (delayed sleep phase disorder). Last time I did any research this was basically the only use case e.g. the only people who were helped vs a placebo. So if you do not have that then it makes sense to find other treatment option.
posted by cape at 10:04 AM on February 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Melatonin works if you have legitimate sleep disorder (delayed sleep phase disorder). Last time I did any research this was basically the only use case e.g. the only people who were helped vs a placebo. So if you do not have that then it makes sense to find other treatment option.
posted by cape at 10:04 AM on February 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
I have also seen doctors recommended melatonin for people on stimulants e.g. ADHD medications. Not sure how well it works if you don't also have DSPD but FYI, it is sometimes recommended as a general sleep medicine.
posted by cape at 10:06 AM on February 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by cape at 10:06 AM on February 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
If it is legal where you are, Delta-8 THC is usually sold in CBD stores and that stuff knocks me OUT. I have had some trouble getting the timing and dosage right for it and sometimes take it too late and wake up a little groggy, so that's something to watch out for.
posted by helloimjennsco at 10:16 AM on February 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by helloimjennsco at 10:16 AM on February 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Healthy alternatives? This sounds facile, but: exercise. I've been seeing a personal trainer once a week since September, and work out 1-2 times a week outside of that, and my sleep has definitely been affected for the better.
To be honest: part of my sleep improvement is due to switching ADHD medications from one that's a slow-release constant in my bloodstream (Strattera) to a quick-release one that lasts 3 hours (Ritalin), but I'd discontinued the Strattera months before starting with the trainer and while I saw some sleep improvement from that, I saw a lot more after starting to work out.
For me, strength exercises work better than just cardio: I once went through a walking program that ramped me up from 10 min/day to 40-60 min/day over the course of 6 weeks of daily walks, and that had no effect on my sleep. But if I do strength stuff during the day, I get sleepier earlier at night, and fall asleep and stay that way more easily. It's not perfect, I still have nights of failing to fall asleep or waking up and not being able to get back, but overall it's much better.
posted by telophase at 10:20 AM on February 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
To be honest: part of my sleep improvement is due to switching ADHD medications from one that's a slow-release constant in my bloodstream (Strattera) to a quick-release one that lasts 3 hours (Ritalin), but I'd discontinued the Strattera months before starting with the trainer and while I saw some sleep improvement from that, I saw a lot more after starting to work out.
For me, strength exercises work better than just cardio: I once went through a walking program that ramped me up from 10 min/day to 40-60 min/day over the course of 6 weeks of daily walks, and that had no effect on my sleep. But if I do strength stuff during the day, I get sleepier earlier at night, and fall asleep and stay that way more easily. It's not perfect, I still have nights of failing to fall asleep or waking up and not being able to get back, but overall it's much better.
posted by telophase at 10:20 AM on February 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
YMMV, but I love a half-dose of doxylamine succinate. A whole dose hits me with a hammer, but a half-dose is nice.
posted by aramaic at 11:24 AM on February 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by aramaic at 11:24 AM on February 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Are you in a legal cannabis state? I've never found CBD to be effective for sleep on it's own. THC + CBD sleep products work better for me. But valerian works as well or better- it takes several weeks of consistent use to have an effect though.
I don't see why smoking on the weekends would affect CBD products.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:46 AM on February 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't see why smoking on the weekends would affect CBD products.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:46 AM on February 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
Vitamin D helps me dream. That means I better achieve REM sleep when I take 2000 meq Costco Vit D. Maybe less would work. I take it in conjunction with 600 mg of Costco Calcium. This jUst about 6 P.M. usually with food in my stomach.
posted by Oyéah at 12:51 PM on February 22, 2022
posted by Oyéah at 12:51 PM on February 22, 2022
Response by poster: Unfortunately, I live in Texas. Also, I take Adderall for my ADD in the morning. It is extended release. I’m talking to my psychiatrist about switching to normal Adderall, not sure extended release.
posted by ggp88 at 12:54 PM on February 22, 2022
posted by ggp88 at 12:54 PM on February 22, 2022
I use half a doxylamine succinate and it works better than any other nonprescription option I've ever tried. Ideal conditions are 2 magnesium about 90 minutes before bed (because they make you poop), a B-complex and half a doxylamine succinate at tooth-brushing time, and some nights I swap the doxy for half a prescribed trazodone if I've not been sleeping well for a few days and am willing to be a little sluggish in the morning.
CBD does a great job of helping with general pain and muscle relaxation, but it's not supposed to make you sleepy and it isn't a sleep drug. I prefer topical CBD, but do occasionally use gummies that have a lot of CBD and just a touch of THC, but I see that's not going to be an option for you where you are.
Most commercial formulations of melatonin - which is not a sleep drug, it's a hormone that sets your biological clock - are sold in formulas thousands of times stronger than the recommended dose, which is in micrograms, as in well under 1 miligram. If it's even actual melatonin - apparently a number of quality control studies suggest it's often mostly not, and in any case oral melatonin is the least bioavailable so maybe at the end of the day you're back down to some micrograms, but whatever else you're taking is a mystery. If you really want to use it, though, you should take it one to three days in a row - not at bedtime but in relationship to the sunset and your desired bedtime, maybe there's still instructions about doing this for jetlag left on the internet - to "reset" your go-to-bed clock and not use it as a sleep aid because it isn't a sleep aid, but apparently my burden in life is to be the only person who cares about this.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:11 PM on February 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
CBD does a great job of helping with general pain and muscle relaxation, but it's not supposed to make you sleepy and it isn't a sleep drug. I prefer topical CBD, but do occasionally use gummies that have a lot of CBD and just a touch of THC, but I see that's not going to be an option for you where you are.
Most commercial formulations of melatonin - which is not a sleep drug, it's a hormone that sets your biological clock - are sold in formulas thousands of times stronger than the recommended dose, which is in micrograms, as in well under 1 miligram. If it's even actual melatonin - apparently a number of quality control studies suggest it's often mostly not, and in any case oral melatonin is the least bioavailable so maybe at the end of the day you're back down to some micrograms, but whatever else you're taking is a mystery. If you really want to use it, though, you should take it one to three days in a row - not at bedtime but in relationship to the sunset and your desired bedtime, maybe there's still instructions about doing this for jetlag left on the internet - to "reset" your go-to-bed clock and not use it as a sleep aid because it isn't a sleep aid, but apparently my burden in life is to be the only person who cares about this.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:11 PM on February 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
I also do the doxylamine succinate in conjunction with meticulous sleep hygiene.
posted by Sassyfras at 2:46 PM on February 22, 2022
posted by Sassyfras at 2:46 PM on February 22, 2022
L-tryptophan before bed gives me a restful sleep. It helps your body make serotonin so it’s not melatonin.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:21 PM on February 22, 2022
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:21 PM on February 22, 2022
I recently came across the advice that, if you are taking melatonin, it should be taken a couple hours before bed.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:04 AM on February 23, 2022
posted by SemiSalt at 5:04 AM on February 23, 2022
It might help if you were more specific about what exactly your sleep problems are. Not being able to fall asleep is a very different problem from waking up in the middle of the night or waking up too early.
For example, it seems like a lot of the most frequent recommendations (taking melatonin a couple hours before bed time, avoiding bright lights before bed) are mainly oriented to someone who has delayed sleep phase syndrome. For DSPS you are trying to shift your circadian rhythm earlier, hence taking melatonin and turning off lights earlier. However, there is also (much less common) advanced sleep phase syndrome, where you fall asleep too early and wake up super early.
I recently suffered from the latter, and following all the standard advice - no blue light before bed, melatonin, bright light first thing in the am - actually made it worse. it turned out that ditching the melatonin and using a bright light right before bed and no blue light in the am fixed my sleep problems.
Now, if you're just dealing with more general run of the mill insomnia, I'd probably try taking the melatonin 30 min to an hour before bed. Also nthing what everyone else mentioned about melatonin dosage - 0.3 mg (300 micrograms) is what I've seen most recommended.
As to other possible things to try:
Magnesium, specifically magnesium glycinate. I'd start with 100 mg and build up from there (I believe max dose is like 400 mg according to RDA or whatever). I'd take it an hour to 1.5 hrs before bed.
And yes exercise - for me, it needs to be cardio - makes a big difference. Personally, I haven't found my ADHD meds to interfere with my sleep (Vyvanse) but of course ymmv.
I have found doxylamine to be helpful for sleep and agree to start with 12.5 mg (half a pill), but I would be wary about taking it daily. You can build a tolerance to it - I definitely did and quickly. Also first gen antihistamines like doxylamine and diphenhydramine (benadryl) can have some potentially negative long term effects.
I've also read some people use the supplement oleamide to help with sleep. I believe it works with the endocannabinoid system. I haven't tried it myself. I'm always skeptical of supplements to be honest, though out of desperation I have tried a number of them lately.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure there are great answers for a lot of people with insomnia. A lot of the stronger sleep meds have lots of side effects or leave you hung over the next day. Also there are a lot of sleep meds/supplements that work in the short term, but not the long term.
IANAD/IANYD - Just a very interested lay person who has had insomnia for basically my whole life.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:04 AM on February 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
For example, it seems like a lot of the most frequent recommendations (taking melatonin a couple hours before bed time, avoiding bright lights before bed) are mainly oriented to someone who has delayed sleep phase syndrome. For DSPS you are trying to shift your circadian rhythm earlier, hence taking melatonin and turning off lights earlier. However, there is also (much less common) advanced sleep phase syndrome, where you fall asleep too early and wake up super early.
I recently suffered from the latter, and following all the standard advice - no blue light before bed, melatonin, bright light first thing in the am - actually made it worse. it turned out that ditching the melatonin and using a bright light right before bed and no blue light in the am fixed my sleep problems.
Now, if you're just dealing with more general run of the mill insomnia, I'd probably try taking the melatonin 30 min to an hour before bed. Also nthing what everyone else mentioned about melatonin dosage - 0.3 mg (300 micrograms) is what I've seen most recommended.
As to other possible things to try:
Magnesium, specifically magnesium glycinate. I'd start with 100 mg and build up from there (I believe max dose is like 400 mg according to RDA or whatever). I'd take it an hour to 1.5 hrs before bed.
And yes exercise - for me, it needs to be cardio - makes a big difference. Personally, I haven't found my ADHD meds to interfere with my sleep (Vyvanse) but of course ymmv.
I have found doxylamine to be helpful for sleep and agree to start with 12.5 mg (half a pill), but I would be wary about taking it daily. You can build a tolerance to it - I definitely did and quickly. Also first gen antihistamines like doxylamine and diphenhydramine (benadryl) can have some potentially negative long term effects.
I've also read some people use the supplement oleamide to help with sleep. I believe it works with the endocannabinoid system. I haven't tried it myself. I'm always skeptical of supplements to be honest, though out of desperation I have tried a number of them lately.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure there are great answers for a lot of people with insomnia. A lot of the stronger sleep meds have lots of side effects or leave you hung over the next day. Also there are a lot of sleep meds/supplements that work in the short term, but not the long term.
IANAD/IANYD - Just a very interested lay person who has had insomnia for basically my whole life.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:04 AM on February 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
I find with CBD type products provenance makes a big difference. I suspect a fair amount of CBD sold is probably not too great. Also, everyone talks about CBD, but CBN & CBG are worth considering as well. I discovered Lazarus Naturals in Oregon, they make a CBD/CBG/CBN compound for sleep that cured a sleeping disorder I had almost instantly. (Made me wonder if was placebo effect, but regardless i was amazed!) They are an end to end manufacturer - grown, extracted, formulated, and packaged. all in house. I would recommend anyone with a sleep issue give it a try. It is not cheap, but was well worth it.
posted by jcworth at 6:39 AM on February 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jcworth at 6:39 AM on February 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Too much or too often? I take half (1.5mg) of a Nature Made 3mg pill nightly using a pill cutter. Have considered going to one-quarter but it works well for me so I'd rather not. How much do you use?
posted by redondo77 at 8:59 AM on February 23, 2022
posted by redondo77 at 8:59 AM on February 23, 2022
I would aggressively pursue changing your ADHD meds from extended release, assuming that the problem is getting to sleep or going to sleep early enough for your everyday life.
posted by purple_bird at 9:41 AM on February 23, 2022
posted by purple_bird at 9:41 AM on February 23, 2022
+1 for Magnesium. 1 tablespoon of Natural Calm brand and I'm out. But definitely check your meds.
posted by flamk at 12:00 AM on February 24, 2022
posted by flamk at 12:00 AM on February 24, 2022
Oh, also old school low-dose trazodone (25 mg, 50 mg). Not sure if you'd be interested in it as "healthy alternative" as it is an very old school antidepressant (at much higher doses) that probably nobody ever actually uses for that purpose anymore, but it's non-addictive and unlike most pharmaceuticals for sleep, it supposedly increases deep sleep without negatively impacting sleep architecture and might even slow cognitive decline? I don't really know enough to say any of that with true confidence (just doing a lot of googling of "trazodone" and "sleep quality" or "sleep architecture") but I do know it really helps me sleep. Just make sure to take it about 9 hours before you want to wake up or you'll be groggy the next day.
posted by flamk at 12:11 AM on February 24, 2022
posted by flamk at 12:11 AM on February 24, 2022
Trazodone is a great drug for sleep. If healthy = natural for you, then it probably isn't for you. But... I know the dosage is the same for every pill, every time I take it. It's been used for YEARS for sleep. It has an extremely large dosage window (like up to 400 mg outpatient/600 inpatient). I used to take as much as 300 (and still do once in a blue moon), but 150 puts me to sleep like a baby. Many people use less. It's not habit forming. On advice from my bariatric surgeon, I also take magnesium at night because I have absorption issues from the surgery. I don't think it helps me sleep, but it does help with the muscle spasms in my back and legs.
posted by kathrynm at 9:59 AM on February 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kathrynm at 9:59 AM on February 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
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