Is this a scam, and how should I prove it to Paypal?
January 15, 2022 5:14 AM Subscribe
I foolishly ordered a suspiciously low-priced, suspiciously in-stock pair of Euro-made shoes on this site, but realized afterwards that a lot of elements look scammy and fake. When I opened a dispute with Paypal, the seller sent a tracking link to this shipping site, which... also looks fake? How can I tell for sure, and how do I then demonstrate that to PayPal?
The website claims to be a US outlet of a reputable European shoe brand. At first glance, the design is identical to the official Euro brand site (www.groundies.com), except that the ...usa.com one shows models in-stock in all sizes that are out-of-stock in most sizes on the Euro website, plus prices ~35% lower than MSRP. On further examination, a lot of the details look odd (every first letter capitalized on terms & conditions pages, shoe models listed one-by-one in the bottom bar presumably for SEO purposes, no contact info beyond a web submission box).
The customer account login works, but I didn't receive an email receipt after the purchase, and the Paypal went to an un-Googleable trading company in China. The Paypal receipt also didn't list what I'd purchased, just "transaction". The shipping link sent by the seller seems to indicate the shoes are being shipped from Paris, which seems odd to me given that the shipping charge was low ($10) and that the European website is sold out of this model; and on clicking around, the tracking site is also missing most of the indicators of being a real live company.
I really would quite like to have the shoes if they actually exist, which has probably been making me unduly credulous through this whole process. Am I correct that this is a scam notwithstanding the shipping link? And if so, how can I demonstrate that most clearly to PayPal, in time to get a refund?
The website claims to be a US outlet of a reputable European shoe brand. At first glance, the design is identical to the official Euro brand site (www.groundies.com), except that the ...usa.com one shows models in-stock in all sizes that are out-of-stock in most sizes on the Euro website, plus prices ~35% lower than MSRP. On further examination, a lot of the details look odd (every first letter capitalized on terms & conditions pages, shoe models listed one-by-one in the bottom bar presumably for SEO purposes, no contact info beyond a web submission box).
The customer account login works, but I didn't receive an email receipt after the purchase, and the Paypal went to an un-Googleable trading company in China. The Paypal receipt also didn't list what I'd purchased, just "transaction". The shipping link sent by the seller seems to indicate the shoes are being shipped from Paris, which seems odd to me given that the shipping charge was low ($10) and that the European website is sold out of this model; and on clicking around, the tracking site is also missing most of the indicators of being a real live company.
I really would quite like to have the shoes if they actually exist, which has probably been making me unduly credulous through this whole process. Am I correct that this is a scam notwithstanding the shipping link? And if so, how can I demonstrate that most clearly to PayPal, in time to get a refund?
That shipping site is very likely NOT fake
Whois data:
Domain name: airforexpress.com
Registry Domain ID: 2656927066_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.namecheap.com
Registrar URL: http://www.namecheap.com
Updated Date: 0001-01-01T00:00:00.00Z
Creation Date: 2021-11-23T09:56:24.00Z
Yeah, nah. A shipper whose tracking site has only existed since November? Fake for sure.
posted by flabdablet at 6:15 AM on January 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Whois data:
Domain name: airforexpress.com
Registry Domain ID: 2656927066_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.namecheap.com
Registrar URL: http://www.namecheap.com
Updated Date: 0001-01-01T00:00:00.00Z
Creation Date: 2021-11-23T09:56:24.00Z
Yeah, nah. A shipper whose tracking site has only existed since November? Fake for sure.
posted by flabdablet at 6:15 AM on January 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
groundiesshoesusa.com has only existed since July, too. So there's that.
posted by flabdablet at 6:19 AM on January 15, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 6:19 AM on January 15, 2022
I'll add that the address on the whois file for the shipping site is:
Kalkofnsvegur 2, Reykjavik, Capital Region, 101, IS
Which maps to the Icelandic Phallological Museum. ("The Icelandic Phallological Museum, located in Reykjavík, Iceland, houses the world's largest display of penises and penile parts.")
So, uh... yeah, fake.
posted by bluecore at 6:21 AM on January 15, 2022 [34 favorites]
Kalkofnsvegur 2, Reykjavik, Capital Region, 101, IS
Which maps to the Icelandic Phallological Museum. ("The Icelandic Phallological Museum, located in Reykjavík, Iceland, houses the world's largest display of penises and penile parts.")
So, uh... yeah, fake.
posted by bluecore at 6:21 AM on January 15, 2022 [34 favorites]
(I'm assuming that was entered by the domain owner although maybe it's a default address if you obfuscate the address with a privacy service. But if it's a legit service, why obfuscate the address?)
posted by bluecore at 6:23 AM on January 15, 2022
posted by bluecore at 6:23 AM on January 15, 2022
I once ordered AU$1500 worth of hard drives from an Amazon Marketplace vendor whose "shipper" turned out to be similarly sketchy. Amazon eventually made me whole but I did have to wait until after the scamming vendor's worst-case estimated delivery date before they would, despite my having got in touch as soon as I realized the shipper was bogus.
Even so, it's probably worth at least opening a dispute case with PayPal as soon as you can; I'm pretty sure the fact of my having done so with Amazon helped my refund happen.
posted by flabdablet at 6:23 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Even so, it's probably worth at least opening a dispute case with PayPal as soon as you can; I'm pretty sure the fact of my having done so with Amazon helped my refund happen.
posted by flabdablet at 6:23 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
The physical webserver appears to be hosted by Amazon (somewhere in their Ohio data center), but then Amazon hosting process can be done by anybody, and doesn't prove anything.
OTOH, someone's gone through some trouble creating fake companies AND fake shipping companies. Chances are you're getting Chinese fakes.
posted by kschang at 7:08 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
OTOH, someone's gone through some trouble creating fake companies AND fake shipping companies. Chances are you're getting Chinese fakes.
posted by kschang at 7:08 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
This happened to me once with a pair of jeans. I did end up getting my money back by simply describing the scam.
I also received a hilarious package months later - a bunch of garbage bags taped together around a pair of “jeans” that, no joke, were randomly sewn together from irregular pieces of scrap fabric.
posted by sevensnowflakes at 7:56 AM on January 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I also received a hilarious package months later - a bunch of garbage bags taped together around a pair of “jeans” that, no joke, were randomly sewn together from irregular pieces of scrap fabric.
posted by sevensnowflakes at 7:56 AM on January 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yeah last year I bought a suspiciously low priced hammock from a random online seller through PayPal. I got a valid shipping label for tracking and everything. What I got in the mail was .... a 4" wide flat plastic snowflake-shaped christmas ornament.
It was quite easy to get my refund from PayPal. I just took a picture of the shipping envelope with tracking #. It was quite clear that was too small to hold a hammock.
posted by MiraK at 8:15 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
It was quite easy to get my refund from PayPal. I just took a picture of the shipping envelope with tracking #. It was quite clear that was too small to hold a hammock.
posted by MiraK at 8:15 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I got a full refund from Paypal for an inflatable swimming pool where the seller absolutely would not respond. Some weeks later I got a perfectly fine (and now free!) inflatable swimming pool. You're getting fake shoes. If you don't get a refund now and they ever show up, dispute them with Paypal as fake.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 10:44 AM on January 15, 2022
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 10:44 AM on January 15, 2022
My experience with PayPal is that they are The Worst.
They have decent name recognition as a reputable company, they claim to offer fraud protection, and because of this scammers can get people to trust sites they otherwise would not if they offer payment through PayPal.
Please see this link explaining PayPal's proof of delivery policy. Proof of delivery requires 'An address for the recipient showing at least the city/state, city/country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent)', and does not require a signature if the purchase is beneath the threshold in the list of tables. For USD, that amount is $750.
So a scammer can send a piece of mail to a random address in your zip code, and PayPal will consider the package delivered if the merchant can provide tracking info showing delivery within the zip code, and reject your 'item not delivered' claim.
In my case, I received tracking info after the item was delivered. PayPal sided with the seller even though the tracking info showed that the piece of mail weighed only a few ounces while the item I purchased weighed 10-20 pounds. PayPal still sided with the seller even after I contacted my post office and was able to get detailed tracking info showing that it was not delivered to my address, but was delivered to a house listed for sale on Trulia. (The USPS was extremely helpful, professional and responsive in my case.)
PayPal has a loophole wide enough to get a Mack truck through when it comes to fraud protection, and they do not give a shit.
In my case, I was able to get a refund by disputing the PayPal charge on my debit card with my bank. I think they wanted to make sure I exhausted all options with PayPal first.
So I would focus less on making the case to PayPal, and more on making the case to your bank. The only thing I can think of to help your case is to try contacting the seller and ask them to provide tracking info for the method that is going to wind up delivering the item to your house. The seller's non-responsiveness will help your case when you go to your bank, and if for some reason the seller does respond with a US mail tracking number ahead of time, you may be able to contact your post office and have them be on the lookout for it.
posted by alphanerd at 3:20 PM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
They have decent name recognition as a reputable company, they claim to offer fraud protection, and because of this scammers can get people to trust sites they otherwise would not if they offer payment through PayPal.
Please see this link explaining PayPal's proof of delivery policy. Proof of delivery requires 'An address for the recipient showing at least the city/state, city/country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent)', and does not require a signature if the purchase is beneath the threshold in the list of tables. For USD, that amount is $750.
So a scammer can send a piece of mail to a random address in your zip code, and PayPal will consider the package delivered if the merchant can provide tracking info showing delivery within the zip code, and reject your 'item not delivered' claim.
In my case, I received tracking info after the item was delivered. PayPal sided with the seller even though the tracking info showed that the piece of mail weighed only a few ounces while the item I purchased weighed 10-20 pounds. PayPal still sided with the seller even after I contacted my post office and was able to get detailed tracking info showing that it was not delivered to my address, but was delivered to a house listed for sale on Trulia. (The USPS was extremely helpful, professional and responsive in my case.)
PayPal has a loophole wide enough to get a Mack truck through when it comes to fraud protection, and they do not give a shit.
In my case, I was able to get a refund by disputing the PayPal charge on my debit card with my bank. I think they wanted to make sure I exhausted all options with PayPal first.
So I would focus less on making the case to PayPal, and more on making the case to your bank. The only thing I can think of to help your case is to try contacting the seller and ask them to provide tracking info for the method that is going to wind up delivering the item to your house. The seller's non-responsiveness will help your case when you go to your bank, and if for some reason the seller does respond with a US mail tracking number ahead of time, you may be able to contact your post office and have them be on the lookout for it.
posted by alphanerd at 3:20 PM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Confirming what alphanerd said below; I went through something similar with a small value item, almost immediately realizing the site was fake. In my case Paypal simply took the existence of a tracking number -- one, mind you, that never showed a single scan -- to be "proof of shipment"
Fortunately, I was only out $35, but know that it is possible that Paypal will simply reject your claim and any appeals
posted by anastasiav at 8:13 PM on January 15, 2022
Fortunately, I was only out $35, but know that it is possible that Paypal will simply reject your claim and any appeals
posted by anastasiav at 8:13 PM on January 15, 2022
This thread is closed to new comments.
I realized the truth the next day, and realized that that was my own error. However - I had ALSO paid for "expedited shipping" which was supposed to get the stuff to me within three days, and I still didn't have the stuff after five days. So that's how I pursued it with Paypal - a sort of "I ordered this stuff and it never arrived" approach.
That shipping site is very likely NOT fake - it is very likely a shipping site local to your vendors' country or city. Basically they've done the equivalent of, if I was sending something to Tonga, and used the receipt from the local pack-and-ship as "proof" of shipping instead of giving them a DHL tracking number.
If you pursue this with Paypal, they are going to first require you to communicate with the vendor. and sit and wait for a week or two. This may be good - when I did that, I got bunch of wacked-out emails back, where they sent me links to tracking numbers that didn't work and where they kept updating the expected arrival date. All of that went in my case file with Paypal. And after all that - two weeks after I opened the case file with Paypal, and a month after I was supposed to get the stuff - Paypal gave me my money back. ....And, ironically, about a month after that, I finally got the damn canning lids. (They were crap. I am keeping them for crafting purposes.)
So there may be a "scam" involved, but the only scam may be about how "legit" this vendor is. You very well may get shoes at the end of the day, but not the shoes you wanted.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:26 AM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]