what laws are they breaking?
April 3, 2006 2:41 AM
What specific laws are illegal immigrants breaking while being here illegally? What laws are broken if they hop the border, and what laws are broken if they over-stay a visa? Are violating these laws crimes, or civil infractions? Are there any state laws on immigration violations?
I keep hearing Mexican workers called "criminals" but I'm not sure if that's accurate, it's certainly annoying.
I keep hearing Mexican workers called "criminals" but I'm not sure if that's accurate, it's certainly annoying.
Not all Mexican workers are criminals, and not all criminals are Mexican workers. The "illegal", or as b1tr0t correctly points out, undocumented aliens are here without the benefit of any paperwork, or background checks to see if they have some kind of criminal record.
Speaking as a person that came here from the UK the legal way many years ago, I can tell you from experience that the US Embassy did a lot of checking into my background before I finally got my green card approved. Following that I then had to follow the INS rules before I could apply for citizenship and at any moment they could have thrown my ass out of the US if I had broken any of them.
The undocumented aliens merely walk across the border and the companies that hire them have no idea who they are hiring or what baggage they bring with them. No taxes are paid and yet we are expected to support them in terms of health care, education for the children and more.
There is no incentive for them to integrate into our society or to learn the English language, and so they do not do either. There is something wrong when I cannot give my order to the staff in McDonalds because they don't understand me.
The whole idea of the "Guest Worker" concept would seem to be the best solution. Allow foreign workers to come here and work for a number of years, pay our wonderful taxes, learn our language and be integrated in our society. Then after XX years they could apply for permanent resident status -- so long as they have fulfilled those requirements and can take a test to prove they have done so. At that point they can stay or leave as they wish without fear of being arrested or deported.
posted by 543DoublePlay at 4:23 AM on April 3, 2006
Speaking as a person that came here from the UK the legal way many years ago, I can tell you from experience that the US Embassy did a lot of checking into my background before I finally got my green card approved. Following that I then had to follow the INS rules before I could apply for citizenship and at any moment they could have thrown my ass out of the US if I had broken any of them.
The undocumented aliens merely walk across the border and the companies that hire them have no idea who they are hiring or what baggage they bring with them. No taxes are paid and yet we are expected to support them in terms of health care, education for the children and more.
There is no incentive for them to integrate into our society or to learn the English language, and so they do not do either. There is something wrong when I cannot give my order to the staff in McDonalds because they don't understand me.
The whole idea of the "Guest Worker" concept would seem to be the best solution. Allow foreign workers to come here and work for a number of years, pay our wonderful taxes, learn our language and be integrated in our society. Then after XX years they could apply for permanent resident status -- so long as they have fulfilled those requirements and can take a test to prove they have done so. At that point they can stay or leave as they wish without fear of being arrested or deported.
posted by 543DoublePlay at 4:23 AM on April 3, 2006
This page seems to have a pretty good breakdown of the laws and regulations regarding immigration, specifically the Immigration and Nationality Act. As a start, any way.
posted by antifuse at 4:44 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by antifuse at 4:44 AM on April 3, 2006
I keep hearing Mexican workers called "criminals" but I'm not sure if that's accurate, it's certainly annoying.
Too bad. If you're doing something illegal, then you're committing a crime. If you're committing a crime, then you're a criminal. Now of course, not ALL Mexican workers are illegals, which means they aren't all criminals.
The undocumented aliens merely walk across the border and the companies that hire them have no idea who they are hiring or what baggage they bring with them.
Don't kid yourself. Most employers know exactly what they're doing. The rest of your comment I agree with. Stop the flow, help the people that are here already, be here legally.
posted by Witty at 5:51 AM on April 3, 2006
Too bad. If you're doing something illegal, then you're committing a crime. If you're committing a crime, then you're a criminal. Now of course, not ALL Mexican workers are illegals, which means they aren't all criminals.
The undocumented aliens merely walk across the border and the companies that hire them have no idea who they are hiring or what baggage they bring with them.
Don't kid yourself. Most employers know exactly what they're doing. The rest of your comment I agree with. Stop the flow, help the people that are here already, be here legally.
posted by Witty at 5:51 AM on April 3, 2006
The discussion on guest worker programs seems to reference the current infranction as breaking the civil immigration laws. The only punishment seems to be deportation although I do believe there are some cases that can result in a short jail stay (1 year), although this is rare. Many of the proposed changes to immigration law include making the breaking of such laws a felony.
Please folks, answer the question.
posted by RustyBrooks at 5:55 AM on April 3, 2006
Please folks, answer the question.
posted by RustyBrooks at 5:55 AM on April 3, 2006
"If you're doing something illegal, then you're committing a crime"
This is not true. Violations of statutes are illegal and punishable by law. Violations of regulations promulgated by regulatory agencies are dealt with by administrative law proceedings or legal action.
For example, if you park illegally you are often not committing a crime.
posted by unSane at 5:56 AM on April 3, 2006
This is not true. Violations of statutes are illegal and punishable by law. Violations of regulations promulgated by regulatory agencies are dealt with by administrative law proceedings or legal action.
For example, if you park illegally you are often not committing a crime.
posted by unSane at 5:56 AM on April 3, 2006
For example, if you park illegally you are often not committing a crime.
Then I stand corrected... although that still isn't clear to me.
posted by Witty at 6:00 AM on April 3, 2006
Then I stand corrected... although that still isn't clear to me.
posted by Witty at 6:00 AM on April 3, 2006
Nevermind... I got it. I think got a little ahead of myself, since I believe that the vast majority of people coming here illegally KNOW that they are doing so... which seems more criminal to me, whether or not the behavior actually is or not.
posted by Witty at 6:05 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by Witty at 6:05 AM on April 3, 2006
"no taxes are paid", says 543 Doubleplay. This is a persistent myth, but an untrue one.
Social Security contributions under incorrect SSNs are up to 200 billion dollars. The average undocumented immigrant worker comes here, provides a false SSN, has social security and taxes deducted from his paycheck like everyone else, and permanently loses that money to the U.S. and state governments because he never claims Social Security payments or files a tax return. This turns out to be quite a huge tax subsidy they're paying; they pay MORE taxes than an American doing a similar job, and get less in return. As you can expect, the Social Security people have no interest in stopping people from sending money to them credited under bogus SSNs - people who pay in without being able to claim SS are the best kind of people, in their eyes.
As for the original question, mostly they aren't breaking any criminal laws (i.e., laws with jail time attached). Being in the U.S. illegitimately is grounds for deportation but not for a jail sentence. In entering the U.S., there may be minor offenses committed (trespassing) as they cross ranchers' land near the border.
posted by jellicle at 6:08 AM on April 3, 2006
Social Security contributions under incorrect SSNs are up to 200 billion dollars. The average undocumented immigrant worker comes here, provides a false SSN, has social security and taxes deducted from his paycheck like everyone else, and permanently loses that money to the U.S. and state governments because he never claims Social Security payments or files a tax return. This turns out to be quite a huge tax subsidy they're paying; they pay MORE taxes than an American doing a similar job, and get less in return. As you can expect, the Social Security people have no interest in stopping people from sending money to them credited under bogus SSNs - people who pay in without being able to claim SS are the best kind of people, in their eyes.
As for the original question, mostly they aren't breaking any criminal laws (i.e., laws with jail time attached). Being in the U.S. illegitimately is grounds for deportation but not for a jail sentence. In entering the U.S., there may be minor offenses committed (trespassing) as they cross ranchers' land near the border.
posted by jellicle at 6:08 AM on April 3, 2006
According to the Arizona senator, they aren't petty criminals, they are all murderers, rapists and child molesters.
So there's your list of most popular crimes... unless a politician was lying to inflame the public during an election year.
posted by I Love Tacos at 6:59 AM on April 3, 2006
So there's your list of most popular crimes... unless a politician was lying to inflame the public during an election year.
posted by I Love Tacos at 6:59 AM on April 3, 2006
The undocumented aliens merely walk across the border and the companies that hire them have no idea who they are hiring or what baggage they bring with them. - 543DoublePlay
Don't kid yourself. Most employers know exactly what they're doing. - Witty
I think 543DoublePlay meant the employers don't know these worker's history w/r/t criminal record etc. I don't believe s/he was suggesting that the employers are ignorant about the worker's undocumented status. That's how I read it, anyway.
posted by raedyn at 7:14 AM on April 3, 2006
Don't kid yourself. Most employers know exactly what they're doing. - Witty
I think 543DoublePlay meant the employers don't know these worker's history w/r/t criminal record etc. I don't believe s/he was suggesting that the employers are ignorant about the worker's undocumented status. That's how I read it, anyway.
posted by raedyn at 7:14 AM on April 3, 2006
Too bad. If you're doing something illegal, then you're committing a crime.
If it's not a felony or a misdemeanor, then it's not a crime. You also didn't answer my question at all.
posted by Paris Hilton at 7:20 AM on April 3, 2006
If it's not a felony or a misdemeanor, then it's not a crime. You also didn't answer my question at all.
posted by Paris Hilton at 7:20 AM on April 3, 2006
Hmm, I was hoping I could avoid reading the INA, but I guess I might have to. I hadn't thought about 'ancillary' crimes of providing false identification to get employment, or working on a tourist visa.
Still, does anyone know the specific statues that are being violated just by being in the country?
posted by Paris Hilton at 7:26 AM on April 3, 2006
Still, does anyone know the specific statues that are being violated just by being in the country?
posted by Paris Hilton at 7:26 AM on April 3, 2006
Still, does anyone know the specific statues that are being violated just by being in the country?
Do you mean the statutes that are violated by various means of illegal entry like entering without inspection, overstaying a visa, or obtaining a visa through fraud?
posted by Amizu at 7:44 AM on April 3, 2006
Do you mean the statutes that are violated by various means of illegal entry like entering without inspection, overstaying a visa, or obtaining a visa through fraud?
posted by Amizu at 7:44 AM on April 3, 2006
No taxes are paid and yet we are expected to support them in terms of health care, education for the children and more. There is no incentive for them to integrate into our society or to learn the English language, and so they do not do either.
Uh-huh. Also they smell funny, are oversexed, and want to steal our women.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:09 AM on April 3, 2006
Uh-huh. Also they smell funny, are oversexed, and want to steal our women.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:09 AM on April 3, 2006
If it's not a felony or a misdemeanor, then it's not a crime.
Obtaining fraudulant documentation... like an SSN or a driver's license, etc... is a crime. People who do this are criminals.
posted by Witty at 8:43 AM on April 3, 2006
Obtaining fraudulant documentation... like an SSN or a driver's license, etc... is a crime. People who do this are criminals.
posted by Witty at 8:43 AM on April 3, 2006
I think this angry yet thought-out list is food for thought.
That said, check out Wikipedia's entry. It indicates that crossing the border is a misdemeanor but doesn't make the visa situation clear.
That said, check out Wikipedia's entry. It indicates that crossing the border is a misdemeanor but doesn't make the visa situation clear.
Roughly 60% of the illegal alien population are undocumented aliens and 40% are nonimmigrant overstayers. Crossing the border without authorization is a misdemeanor for the first offense and a felony for subsequent violations. Immigrants who are caught illegally trespassing U.S. territory are fingerprinted and immediately returned, unless they are a repeat offender, in which case they may be criminally prosecuted. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) made the hiring of an illegal alien an offense for the first time.posted by mikeh at 8:48 AM on April 3, 2006
We going to answer the man's question or are we going to use this as an excuse to argue about the guest worker program?
posted by shanevsevil at 8:48 AM on April 3, 2006
posted by shanevsevil at 8:48 AM on April 3, 2006
The NH attorney general says that they can be charged under criminal trespassing. Link here.
So there's an answer to at least one part of your question. ;)
posted by drstein at 9:03 AM on April 3, 2006
So there's an answer to at least one part of your question. ;)
posted by drstein at 9:03 AM on April 3, 2006
Section 1325. Improper entry by alien
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
imposed.
posted by vacapinta at 9:58 AM on April 3, 2006
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
imposed.
posted by vacapinta at 9:58 AM on April 3, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Paris Hilton at 2:42 AM on April 3, 2006