Was this sexual assault?
July 1, 2021 3:30 AM Subscribe
I recently had a confusing sexual experience and it’s been bothering me.
It was my first time having sex. I was on a first date with someone, we were at the park, he started kissing me and then suggested we “find somewhere more private.” I didn’t want to have sex so I said I thought I should go home. He got me to stay and we talked some more, then he said if we did go back to my place, which was nearby, we could just cuddle and sleep. I was skeptical at first and now I feel stupid for believing him but he convinced me he was sincere, and I like cuddling, so I agreed.
We got back and he stripped down to his underwear, which I was kind of taken aback by, but I thought, maybe that’s just how he sleeps. He laughed at me for keeping my clothes on. We cuddled for a bit but it quickly turned sexual. He asked if it was okay, and I said it was. I felt uncomfortable, I wasn’t enjoying it at all, but I tried to pretend like I was because I didn’t want him to feel bad (!). I don't think it ever really occurred to me at that point to say no.
The sex itself was bad. He did seem to want me to have a good time and continually asked if what he was doing was okay; I always said yes. When it was over he said, “You know, I wouldn’t have touched you if you just wanted to sleep.” Which struck me as a weird thing to say. I was worried he felt like he had pressured me so I tried to assure him, like, “I know, I wouldn’t have let you come here if—,” and he cut me off and said he knew, he just felt like he had to say that, but he’d figured “it” was understood, and “that made it kind of hot.” I didn’t ask him what he meant at the time, but it sure sounded like he was saying he knew my reluctance to have sex was just an act—and maybe he really did believe that, because I went along with it the second time. But it didn’t feel okay.
This happened over a month ago. I’ve been going over it in my brain ever since. Maybe it just falls into the gray area of “bad sex”—I’d consented, maybe enthusiastically from his point of view, I was sober, I couldn't expect him to read my mind, etc.
But I can’t get over the fact that he didn’t just let it go after I said no the first time (I mean, I think “I should leave” is a pretty clear “no,” right?), that he lied to me to get back to my apartment, and that he seemed to think my initial no meant yes.
I just don’t know what to think about all this. I don’t know what happened, what to call it, how to feel. I had trust issues and a fear of men before this (hence the not having sex) but this encounter has made me even more mistrustful of them. I know lots of good men but deep down I kind of hate all of them right now. I have no desire to have sex again. And at the same time I feel like I’m making a big deal over nothing. Or am I? Was this assault or not?
It was my first time having sex. I was on a first date with someone, we were at the park, he started kissing me and then suggested we “find somewhere more private.” I didn’t want to have sex so I said I thought I should go home. He got me to stay and we talked some more, then he said if we did go back to my place, which was nearby, we could just cuddle and sleep. I was skeptical at first and now I feel stupid for believing him but he convinced me he was sincere, and I like cuddling, so I agreed.
We got back and he stripped down to his underwear, which I was kind of taken aback by, but I thought, maybe that’s just how he sleeps. He laughed at me for keeping my clothes on. We cuddled for a bit but it quickly turned sexual. He asked if it was okay, and I said it was. I felt uncomfortable, I wasn’t enjoying it at all, but I tried to pretend like I was because I didn’t want him to feel bad (!). I don't think it ever really occurred to me at that point to say no.
The sex itself was bad. He did seem to want me to have a good time and continually asked if what he was doing was okay; I always said yes. When it was over he said, “You know, I wouldn’t have touched you if you just wanted to sleep.” Which struck me as a weird thing to say. I was worried he felt like he had pressured me so I tried to assure him, like, “I know, I wouldn’t have let you come here if—,” and he cut me off and said he knew, he just felt like he had to say that, but he’d figured “it” was understood, and “that made it kind of hot.” I didn’t ask him what he meant at the time, but it sure sounded like he was saying he knew my reluctance to have sex was just an act—and maybe he really did believe that, because I went along with it the second time. But it didn’t feel okay.
This happened over a month ago. I’ve been going over it in my brain ever since. Maybe it just falls into the gray area of “bad sex”—I’d consented, maybe enthusiastically from his point of view, I was sober, I couldn't expect him to read my mind, etc.
But I can’t get over the fact that he didn’t just let it go after I said no the first time (I mean, I think “I should leave” is a pretty clear “no,” right?), that he lied to me to get back to my apartment, and that he seemed to think my initial no meant yes.
I just don’t know what to think about all this. I don’t know what happened, what to call it, how to feel. I had trust issues and a fear of men before this (hence the not having sex) but this encounter has made me even more mistrustful of them. I know lots of good men but deep down I kind of hate all of them right now. I have no desire to have sex again. And at the same time I feel like I’m making a big deal over nothing. Or am I? Was this assault or not?
This was sexual assault. You said no. He did not listen.
Please trust yourself and your feelings about the situation and do not allow yourself to minimize the impact it's had on you. I had two very similar experiences in my young adulthood and I really really wish I had dealt with the truth of those assaults sooner.
RAINN has a hotline you can call anytime if you'd like to talk to someone.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 4:17 AM on July 1, 2021 [17 favorites]
Please trust yourself and your feelings about the situation and do not allow yourself to minimize the impact it's had on you. I had two very similar experiences in my young adulthood and I really really wish I had dealt with the truth of those assaults sooner.
RAINN has a hotline you can call anytime if you'd like to talk to someone.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 4:17 AM on July 1, 2021 [17 favorites]
This was assault.
But please, take care of yourself. Talk about this with someone you trust, don't keep it bottled up.
posted by james33 at 4:29 AM on July 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
But please, take care of yourself. Talk about this with someone you trust, don't keep it bottled up.
posted by james33 at 4:29 AM on July 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
I had a very similar experience to this when I was 18, it wasn't full penetrative sex but it was one of my very first sexual encounters. I went on a couple of dates with a much older man and he took me back to his place and pressured me into fooling around. At the time I didn't want to upset or annoy him, so I went along with it even though I wasn't very attracted to him and didn't want to do anything with him.
Afterwards I felt confused and vulnerable, but I thought that was normal. I "broke up" with him a couple of days later, at which point he became cruel and accused me of leading him on. I believed him and cried over it.
It took me years to realise what had actually happened. During that time I had other good consensual encounters and a couple of normal relationships with cis men. I put what happened that first time out of my mind. Now, I look back on it with a mixture of disgust (at him) and pity (for me). It was a confusing time and I'm still not fully sure what I "should" have done about any of it.
This is to say that there's no right or wrong way to feel about what happened. It's okay to feel angry and confused. You're not making a big deal about nothing. You didn't ask for this, it's not your fault that he ignored the signs of reluctance (or was even encouraged by them! Ugh!). He pressured you into a situation where you felt like you couldn't say no. He did not receive your informed, enthusiastic consent, but he proceeded anyway. He is the one who is at fault.
Talk to someone if you can and you feel you are able to. If you don't want to right now that's fine, but please remember that you are not alone, there are people who will listen to you and you deserve to feel safe in every relationship you have.
posted by fight or flight at 4:35 AM on July 1, 2021 [21 favorites]
Afterwards I felt confused and vulnerable, but I thought that was normal. I "broke up" with him a couple of days later, at which point he became cruel and accused me of leading him on. I believed him and cried over it.
It took me years to realise what had actually happened. During that time I had other good consensual encounters and a couple of normal relationships with cis men. I put what happened that first time out of my mind. Now, I look back on it with a mixture of disgust (at him) and pity (for me). It was a confusing time and I'm still not fully sure what I "should" have done about any of it.
This is to say that there's no right or wrong way to feel about what happened. It's okay to feel angry and confused. You're not making a big deal about nothing. You didn't ask for this, it's not your fault that he ignored the signs of reluctance (or was even encouraged by them! Ugh!). He pressured you into a situation where you felt like you couldn't say no. He did not receive your informed, enthusiastic consent, but he proceeded anyway. He is the one who is at fault.
Talk to someone if you can and you feel you are able to. If you don't want to right now that's fine, but please remember that you are not alone, there are people who will listen to you and you deserve to feel safe in every relationship you have.
posted by fight or flight at 4:35 AM on July 1, 2021 [21 favorites]
This was a terrible encounter and an unwanted sexual encounter. Legally I'm not positive how it would be defined, but legally doesn't matter right now. What matters is you.
If you haven't had a desire to have sex, that's not only understandable in your situation, but completely and utterly normal. Most, if not all people, only have a desire to have sex when they are comfortable. For me that's not for a long time in an established relationship.
I highly recommend a therapist - not because there's something wrong with you, or your preferences, but to help establish that you are normal, excellent human, and to process your last relationships and this terrible encounter.
posted by bbqturtle at 4:39 AM on July 1, 2021 [21 favorites]
If you haven't had a desire to have sex, that's not only understandable in your situation, but completely and utterly normal. Most, if not all people, only have a desire to have sex when they are comfortable. For me that's not for a long time in an established relationship.
I highly recommend a therapist - not because there's something wrong with you, or your preferences, but to help establish that you are normal, excellent human, and to process your last relationships and this terrible encounter.
posted by bbqturtle at 4:39 AM on July 1, 2021 [21 favorites]
From here to 'do I want to try again' is going to be a journey and effort. I'm going to try to avoid assuming your presenting gender or the people you're attracted to -- your anonymity and language just say you were with a 'him'.
First sex (and second) deserve a lot of space for figuring it out. The logistics of the right parts in the most enjoyable places is something you learn with a partner, specific to that person.
Consent is ongoing and has degrees -- you said no and didn't honestly change that response. Preserving your boundaries and stating what's permitted is effort to do in the heat of the moment and not without pressure on you to go along with whatever's in the mind of the other party/parties for fear of ruining something 'kind of hot'* or facing violence for keeping your 'no' a firm 'no'. You've survived and you're bugged about it, this internet random stranger thinks that it was contrary to your consent and it's not your fault that the other person (and the culture around the other person that rewards his behaviour) bypassed your boundaries without repeatedly confirming that you feel safe and are enjoying the contact.
If you want to try again, there will be other people who facilitate enjoyable experiences with you. It may help to cast this as a bad experience you've survived and learned from. If you consent to a date, to making out or undressing (some of the degrees you can yes and no), next time your 'no don't touch that' must be respected until you have trust in your partner that they will touch you to make you feel good. It's alright to say 'not like that, more like this' and 'not now' or to call a full halt to proceedings -- puzzling out what feels good is a fun relationship-building journey.
*: I read this as 'first date hookup' kind of hot but it's also 'I got my way and closed the deal overcoming their objections' -- but both are fraught with misunderstandings for the positive starting experience I would want to begin a sexy life.
posted by k3ninho at 4:39 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
First sex (and second) deserve a lot of space for figuring it out. The logistics of the right parts in the most enjoyable places is something you learn with a partner, specific to that person.
Consent is ongoing and has degrees -- you said no and didn't honestly change that response. Preserving your boundaries and stating what's permitted is effort to do in the heat of the moment and not without pressure on you to go along with whatever's in the mind of the other party/parties for fear of ruining something 'kind of hot'* or facing violence for keeping your 'no' a firm 'no'. You've survived and you're bugged about it, this internet random stranger thinks that it was contrary to your consent and it's not your fault that the other person (and the culture around the other person that rewards his behaviour) bypassed your boundaries without repeatedly confirming that you feel safe and are enjoying the contact.
If you want to try again, there will be other people who facilitate enjoyable experiences with you. It may help to cast this as a bad experience you've survived and learned from. If you consent to a date, to making out or undressing (some of the degrees you can yes and no), next time your 'no don't touch that' must be respected until you have trust in your partner that they will touch you to make you feel good. It's alright to say 'not like that, more like this' and 'not now' or to call a full halt to proceedings -- puzzling out what feels good is a fun relationship-building journey.
*: I read this as 'first date hookup' kind of hot but it's also 'I got my way and closed the deal overcoming their objections' -- but both are fraught with misunderstandings for the positive starting experience I would want to begin a sexy life.
posted by k3ninho at 4:39 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
This must be a Thing in the lives of so many people. I’ve been in this situation more than once, and with years of sexual experience behind me (although, in monogamous, long term relationships, so dating was new) I still fell for the ‘just cuddling!’ line, or the ‘just for a last drink!’ line. Same results, same doubts, same feeling of being violated.
If you are a woman, it is likely you’ve been highly socialised to be amenable, cool, self effacing in order to not disrupt others. Or maybe just a person raised in a controlling, punitive or highly conflict avoidant family or lifestyle (a common one) that made any sense of No just plain uncomfortable or undoable makes these situations so much more probable.
Learning the power of a ‘I said No in the nicest possible way. But me being nice or not, I need you to hear the No’ is something I had to practice over and over.
There have been times also when the perpetrator has done the same reassuring conversational dance yours did with you - to create the facade that the experience was sought, that it was enjoyable and that I got what I apparently wanted without any coercion or social difficulty caused by having an unknown man in my home. Ugh, it’s like a well worn strategy and it really makes me cross.
posted by honey-barbara at 5:00 AM on July 1, 2021 [40 favorites]
If you are a woman, it is likely you’ve been highly socialised to be amenable, cool, self effacing in order to not disrupt others. Or maybe just a person raised in a controlling, punitive or highly conflict avoidant family or lifestyle (a common one) that made any sense of No just plain uncomfortable or undoable makes these situations so much more probable.
Learning the power of a ‘I said No in the nicest possible way. But me being nice or not, I need you to hear the No’ is something I had to practice over and over.
There have been times also when the perpetrator has done the same reassuring conversational dance yours did with you - to create the facade that the experience was sought, that it was enjoyable and that I got what I apparently wanted without any coercion or social difficulty caused by having an unknown man in my home. Ugh, it’s like a well worn strategy and it really makes me cross.
posted by honey-barbara at 5:00 AM on July 1, 2021 [40 favorites]
"You know, I wouldn’t have touched you if you just wanted to sleep.”
That line creeped me right out. He knows on some level that he's predatory, and he's simultaneously trying to convince both you and himself that he's not.
An old mefite trick is relevant here: Imagine a beloved relative or good friend told you this story, what would you think? That his behavior was OK? Or that he had no right to treat someone you love like that? You yourself deserve the same consideration.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 5:12 AM on July 1, 2021 [32 favorites]
That line creeped me right out. He knows on some level that he's predatory, and he's simultaneously trying to convince both you and himself that he's not.
An old mefite trick is relevant here: Imagine a beloved relative or good friend told you this story, what would you think? That his behavior was OK? Or that he had no right to treat someone you love like that? You yourself deserve the same consideration.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 5:12 AM on July 1, 2021 [32 favorites]
Oh man. This has happened to me a few times, and it’s so upsetting every time it happens. This may sound like a digression but it’s not: I went to Cuddle Party and before anything happened we all had to practice saying no in a very specific way to strangers asking us nicely if they could touch an arm or neck. I mentioned that because I’m an old person and even so it is so fucking hard for me to say no in any sexual moment even if I have said no before that.
There’s not just fight or flight, there is also freeze. And I tend to freeze and then blame myself later even though it’s not really my fault. I am not saying that your experience is the same as my experience. I am saying that is really really hard to keep fighting against a determined asshole after you’ve made it clear that the answer is no.
I am so sorry this happened to you. It especially sucks that this was your first experience of this particular sort. You had bad luck, which is not your fault. This guy assaulted you, which is not your fault. There are much better experiences ahead of you, experiences that will be pleasurable and fully consensual. I really wish this had been one of them, and I hope you do get support to work through what happened.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:20 AM on July 1, 2021 [15 favorites]
There’s not just fight or flight, there is also freeze. And I tend to freeze and then blame myself later even though it’s not really my fault. I am not saying that your experience is the same as my experience. I am saying that is really really hard to keep fighting against a determined asshole after you’ve made it clear that the answer is no.
I am so sorry this happened to you. It especially sucks that this was your first experience of this particular sort. You had bad luck, which is not your fault. This guy assaulted you, which is not your fault. There are much better experiences ahead of you, experiences that will be pleasurable and fully consensual. I really wish this had been one of them, and I hope you do get support to work through what happened.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:20 AM on July 1, 2021 [15 favorites]
The only correct response to someone saying no is for the partner to apologize and not take it any further. Especially on a first date!!!!
I'm sorry this happened. I am glad you realized it and reached out instead of just accepting this dude's manipulation and blaming yourself.
posted by emjaybee at 5:56 AM on July 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'm sorry this happened. I am glad you realized it and reached out instead of just accepting this dude's manipulation and blaming yourself.
posted by emjaybee at 5:56 AM on July 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
You were assaulted.
Here is a video about the fight/flight/freeze response that Bella Donna mentioned above. It was shared with me by the counselor I see to deal with my own trauma around assault and I found it very helpful. I'm so sorry this happened to you.
posted by _Mona_ at 5:57 AM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
Here is a video about the fight/flight/freeze response that Bella Donna mentioned above. It was shared with me by the counselor I see to deal with my own trauma around assault and I found it very helpful. I'm so sorry this happened to you.
posted by _Mona_ at 5:57 AM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
You say that you "don't know how to feel" about what happened, and it seems like you are trying to get a consensus on whether other people think this was assault before you can decide how you feel. But you don't need to do that. Even if you had an experience in which you would have appeared to an outside observer to be enthusiastically consenting, if internally you were screaming "NO NO NO," you can still feel yucky about what happened. Whether or not other people would have a problem with something you experienced does not need to affect how YOU feel about it. Focus on how you actually feel rather than how you think you SHOULD feel and go from there.
posted by metasarah at 6:04 AM on July 1, 2021 [33 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 6:04 AM on July 1, 2021 [33 favorites]
I wasn’t enjoying it at all, but I tried to pretend like I was because I didn’t want him to feel bad (!). ... He did seem to want me to have a good time and continually asked if what he was doing was okay
This is why the concept of enthusiastic continuous consent needs to be properly taught in schools.
If this guy needed to ask continually if what he was doing was OK then he must have been in some doubt about your enthusiasm, and that degree of doubt should be enough to lead any non-rapist to back off and apologize.
That he didn't do that, instead persisting with a formulaic and box-ticking approach to obtaining something that he might think he could plausibly characterize to similarly creepy and/or ignorant creeps as continuous verbal consent, puts what he did to you unambiguously in the assault category.
He knows on some level that he's predatory, and he's simultaneously trying to convince both you and himself that he's not.
Yup.
There are much better experiences ahead of you, experiences that will be pleasurable and fully consensual. I really wish this had been one of them, and I hope you do get support to work through what happened.
Seconded.
posted by flabdablet at 6:20 AM on July 1, 2021 [10 favorites]
This is why the concept of enthusiastic continuous consent needs to be properly taught in schools.
If this guy needed to ask continually if what he was doing was OK then he must have been in some doubt about your enthusiasm, and that degree of doubt should be enough to lead any non-rapist to back off and apologize.
That he didn't do that, instead persisting with a formulaic and box-ticking approach to obtaining something that he might think he could plausibly characterize to similarly creepy and/or ignorant creeps as continuous verbal consent, puts what he did to you unambiguously in the assault category.
He knows on some level that he's predatory, and he's simultaneously trying to convince both you and himself that he's not.
Yup.
There are much better experiences ahead of you, experiences that will be pleasurable and fully consensual. I really wish this had been one of them, and I hope you do get support to work through what happened.
Seconded.
posted by flabdablet at 6:20 AM on July 1, 2021 [10 favorites]
Leaving aside legal questions, this guy obviously knew that you were not feeling ready to have sex. He knew, and he schemed to get past your refusal. If you know or have strong reason to suspect that someone doesn't want to have sex and you use incremental pressure to get them to have sex that they do not want, that is assault, morally speaking, even if it's one of those crimes beyond the reach of the law. It is a despicable thing to do.
posted by Frowner at 6:31 AM on July 1, 2021 [30 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:31 AM on July 1, 2021 [30 favorites]
To add on to the fight/flight/freeze- there is an additional piece to this, called fawn. For people who have experienced a lot of abuse or highly imbalanced power dynamics, when they begin to feel unsafe & disrespected, as you rightly did, they may begin to "fawn", acting in adoring or people-pleasing ways to the abuser/potential abuser. We're all very sensitive to power dynamics and we have the instincts to tell us something is off, even if very slightly. I'm only throwing this piece in for future awareness: if you feel unsafe and find yourself become accommodating or ingratiating, it's a part of this same self-protective defense / coping system. It's good to be aware of. (When I catch myself doing any of these- fight/flight/freeze/fawn, I bring my attention back to my breath to ease out of the reaction.)
Sending you healing.
posted by erattacorrige at 6:32 AM on July 1, 2021 [28 favorites]
Sending you healing.
posted by erattacorrige at 6:32 AM on July 1, 2021 [28 favorites]
Leaving aside legal questions, this guy obviously knew that you were not feeling ready to have sex. He knew, and he schemed to get past your refusal.
This. Additionally, he deliberately created the trappings of consent without actually ensuring genuine consent (which he knew full well was lacking).
Ethically, he did something terrible, even if it steered clear of legal jeopardy. His behavior was, at a minimum, gross and predatory, and I'd bet lots of money that this wasn't his first rodeo skirting those lines.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:44 AM on July 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
This. Additionally, he deliberately created the trappings of consent without actually ensuring genuine consent (which he knew full well was lacking).
Ethically, he did something terrible, even if it steered clear of legal jeopardy. His behavior was, at a minimum, gross and predatory, and I'd bet lots of money that this wasn't his first rodeo skirting those lines.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:44 AM on July 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
I just don’t know what to think about all this. I don’t know what happened, what to call it, how to feel. I had trust issues and a fear of men before this (hence the not having sex) but this encounter has made me even more mistrustful of them. I know lots of good men but deep down I kind of hate all of them right now. I have no desire to have sex again. And at the same time I feel like I’m making a big deal over nothing. Or am I? Was this assault or not?
It was sexual assault, he did shitty things to your boundaries and sense of boundaries en route, and however you do feel about it is the "right" reaction. However,
And at the same time I feel like I’m making a big deal over nothing.
The voice that tells you you are making a big deal over nothing is, in my experience, a coping mechanism to protect you from comprehending the horror of the experience. You won't really start healing until you process that horror, though, so I would recommend seeking out a therapist or counselor to help you first manage the voice, and then process the trauma.
I went through a similar experience and I also have a lot of conflicted feelings about describing it as an assault, sexual or otherwise. It's like, you walked away without a broken bone, it wasn't violent. Are you sure it was an assault?
The truth is, though, he used sex as a weapon to do violence to your sense of self, your boundaries, your confidence, your personhood. These are immaterial in the sense of not physically existing somewhere, but are the backbone of... your existence as a fully-realized, autonomous person, I guess you could say. It hurts you without giving you a visible wound to point to. I don't think I'm explaining this well, but it's the best I can do without appearing callous. I don't think you need that callous explanation now.
I had trust issues and a fear of men before this (hence the not having sex) but this encounter has made me even more mistrustful of them. I know lots of good men but deep down I kind of hate all of them right now.
So there are men, individuals, and then there is men, the class of person allowed by the patriarchy to do this sort of violence without consequence. It's a distinction I have to remind myself of. I do not trust men as a class, and in fact I hate them, but there are a few men, as individuals, that I don't mind being in the presence of, or consider friends or family. They are all on thin fucking ice with me, regardless, I do not accept any dodgy speech or behavior from them and I let them know it. I do not have the capacity to have them in my life and look away from shitty behavior any more, I know the cost of it too well.
...I don't know that this is healthy, necessarily, but it's where I'm at.
I am sending you warm thoughts and hopes for peace. Please feel free to memail me if you would like to talk.
posted by snerson at 8:01 AM on July 1, 2021 [14 favorites]
It was sexual assault, he did shitty things to your boundaries and sense of boundaries en route, and however you do feel about it is the "right" reaction. However,
And at the same time I feel like I’m making a big deal over nothing.
The voice that tells you you are making a big deal over nothing is, in my experience, a coping mechanism to protect you from comprehending the horror of the experience. You won't really start healing until you process that horror, though, so I would recommend seeking out a therapist or counselor to help you first manage the voice, and then process the trauma.
I went through a similar experience and I also have a lot of conflicted feelings about describing it as an assault, sexual or otherwise. It's like, you walked away without a broken bone, it wasn't violent. Are you sure it was an assault?
The truth is, though, he used sex as a weapon to do violence to your sense of self, your boundaries, your confidence, your personhood. These are immaterial in the sense of not physically existing somewhere, but are the backbone of... your existence as a fully-realized, autonomous person, I guess you could say. It hurts you without giving you a visible wound to point to. I don't think I'm explaining this well, but it's the best I can do without appearing callous. I don't think you need that callous explanation now.
I had trust issues and a fear of men before this (hence the not having sex) but this encounter has made me even more mistrustful of them. I know lots of good men but deep down I kind of hate all of them right now.
So there are men, individuals, and then there is men, the class of person allowed by the patriarchy to do this sort of violence without consequence. It's a distinction I have to remind myself of. I do not trust men as a class, and in fact I hate them, but there are a few men, as individuals, that I don't mind being in the presence of, or consider friends or family. They are all on thin fucking ice with me, regardless, I do not accept any dodgy speech or behavior from them and I let them know it. I do not have the capacity to have them in my life and look away from shitty behavior any more, I know the cost of it too well.
...I don't know that this is healthy, necessarily, but it's where I'm at.
I am sending you warm thoughts and hopes for peace. Please feel free to memail me if you would like to talk.
posted by snerson at 8:01 AM on July 1, 2021 [14 favorites]
I haven't anything to add to the good advice above, but just wanted to send solidarity.
It was assault. When these boundary-eroding techniques were used against me when I didn't want to have sex - or a certain type of sex - or sex in a particular location - or sex without a condom, it was also assault, though it took me a long, long time to realise it.
I have blamed myself for getting into those "situations" because in hindsight I felt like I could have been more blunt, physically resisted, just left, asked him to leave, just done something (anything) differently. Or I minimised it as general crappy sex. Or a miscommunication. But the fact is that those people chose to behave in that way because they didn't care about what I wanted - only about what they wanted.
It's very hard to characterise someone as a predator (opportunist or calculated) when there is any kind of plausible deniability. And with some of these people, I really liked them! We were friends! I was hoping that this would turn into something good! I was in a long-term relationship with them! I wanted them not to be a person who manipulates and coerces someone into unwanted sex.
I feel like you at the moment, in that I'm not sure if or when I will trust someone enough to want to have sex again. And, to be honest, it feels fine.
Thank you for asking the question and helping to put this information out into the world.
posted by doornoise at 8:24 AM on July 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
It was assault. When these boundary-eroding techniques were used against me when I didn't want to have sex - or a certain type of sex - or sex in a particular location - or sex without a condom, it was also assault, though it took me a long, long time to realise it.
I have blamed myself for getting into those "situations" because in hindsight I felt like I could have been more blunt, physically resisted, just left, asked him to leave, just done something (anything) differently. Or I minimised it as general crappy sex. Or a miscommunication. But the fact is that those people chose to behave in that way because they didn't care about what I wanted - only about what they wanted.
It's very hard to characterise someone as a predator (opportunist or calculated) when there is any kind of plausible deniability. And with some of these people, I really liked them! We were friends! I was hoping that this would turn into something good! I was in a long-term relationship with them! I wanted them not to be a person who manipulates and coerces someone into unwanted sex.
I feel like you at the moment, in that I'm not sure if or when I will trust someone enough to want to have sex again. And, to be honest, it feels fine.
Thank you for asking the question and helping to put this information out into the world.
posted by doornoise at 8:24 AM on July 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
Definitely look into the freeze - fawn response because that is what you describe here.
And I think there are men who deliberately seek women who have this response, because they know they can override it and often get away with it.
It actually says a lot about you and your sense of self and boundaries that you already know it was wrong - it took me YEARS to realize in retrospect what was going on when it happened to me.
It doesn’t really matter what you “name” the experience - if giving it a certain title feels worse right now, you don’t have to. But I think it would help to have some therapy to talk it out.
And also, if you decide you want to try again later, I really want to reassure you that not all sexual encounters are like this, and safer partners do exist. But there is no need to even think about that right now, your healing and processing is what matters.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:30 AM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
And I think there are men who deliberately seek women who have this response, because they know they can override it and often get away with it.
It actually says a lot about you and your sense of self and boundaries that you already know it was wrong - it took me YEARS to realize in retrospect what was going on when it happened to me.
It doesn’t really matter what you “name” the experience - if giving it a certain title feels worse right now, you don’t have to. But I think it would help to have some therapy to talk it out.
And also, if you decide you want to try again later, I really want to reassure you that not all sexual encounters are like this, and safer partners do exist. But there is no need to even think about that right now, your healing and processing is what matters.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:30 AM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
This was assault. It reminds me of The Heart series on consent (called 'No').
posted by catquas at 10:28 AM on July 1, 2021
posted by catquas at 10:28 AM on July 1, 2021
(I'll explicitly say that I'm a man, in case that helps)
My perspective in situations where there might be some areas for the guy to justify his actions - "I asked regularly if she was ok and she said yes", "I gave her lots of opportunities to explicitly say "No" and didn't", etc - is normally based on whether I (someone who needs enthusiastic consent to be able to enjoy sex because otherwise I worry I might do exactly what he did) would be ok with the guy's actions.
And in your case, I would not be ok doing what he did. At all. Whether this meets the legal definition of assault is a moot point; it's how you feel that's important, not whether a lawyer can convince a jury. What he did - in my opinion - was morally unacceptable. He was in the wrong.
Please look after yourself and process as you need to. As others above have commented better than me, trust your feelings on this because they are the important arbiter. You feel like you've been sexually assaulted, and therefore you should be supported and helped as a survivor of sexual assault, in whatever way you need to be supported and helped.
I'm so sorry this happened to you.
posted by underclocked at 10:58 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
My perspective in situations where there might be some areas for the guy to justify his actions - "I asked regularly if she was ok and she said yes", "I gave her lots of opportunities to explicitly say "No" and didn't", etc - is normally based on whether I (someone who needs enthusiastic consent to be able to enjoy sex because otherwise I worry I might do exactly what he did) would be ok with the guy's actions.
And in your case, I would not be ok doing what he did. At all. Whether this meets the legal definition of assault is a moot point; it's how you feel that's important, not whether a lawyer can convince a jury. What he did - in my opinion - was morally unacceptable. He was in the wrong.
Please look after yourself and process as you need to. As others above have commented better than me, trust your feelings on this because they are the important arbiter. You feel like you've been sexually assaulted, and therefore you should be supported and helped as a survivor of sexual assault, in whatever way you need to be supported and helped.
I'm so sorry this happened to you.
posted by underclocked at 10:58 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
As a guy, this is my personal thoughts on this matter.
You were taken advantage of, by someone who basically "mentally pressured" you into complying to his wish for sex, because you didn't know how (or have problems doing so) to respond to such intentions.
I am not a mind-reader, and but I did study this topic (psychology, pick-up culture, etc.) IMHO, he got his "pickup" tactics via pick-up artists who basically teach that "never give up, even if woman says no, 'caus she may say yes later", and "a lot of women say no but really mean yes". He thought you saying no, but invited him up anyway, meant to him that you really mean "yes".
I have a feeling that you are a "pleaser", and you have problems saying no to people. This made you vulnerable to such pick-up tactics.
posted by kschang at 11:06 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
You were taken advantage of, by someone who basically "mentally pressured" you into complying to his wish for sex, because you didn't know how (or have problems doing so) to respond to such intentions.
I am not a mind-reader, and but I did study this topic (psychology, pick-up culture, etc.) IMHO, he got his "pickup" tactics via pick-up artists who basically teach that "never give up, even if woman says no, 'caus she may say yes later", and "a lot of women say no but really mean yes". He thought you saying no, but invited him up anyway, meant to him that you really mean "yes".
I have a feeling that you are a "pleaser", and you have problems saying no to people. This made you vulnerable to such pick-up tactics.
posted by kschang at 11:06 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
"pick up tactics" are really just coercion, this man coerced the OP. Coercion is a form of violence, and should be recognized as such. If sex is violent, it is rape. That's what pick up artists teach- how to, with plausible deniability, commit acts of coercion against people socialized to acquiesce and/or are more emotionally/physically vulnerable than the predatory actor. I don't even want to call pick up artists "artists" proper, bc that term elides the truth about these (majority) men.
posted by erattacorrige at 11:27 AM on July 1, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by erattacorrige at 11:27 AM on July 1, 2021 [12 favorites]
Ugh, what a crummy, unsettling experience.
I get the sense that you're trying to understand what was going on with him in this experience, and also what was going on with you.
We can make guesses all day about what was going on with him, and they may or may not be correct. Doesn't really matter (because you're never going to see him again, right? Please tell me I'm right. )
I think the only thing that matters here is you, how you make peace with this experience, what learnings you take from it.
I would advise being gentle with yourself. This was the first time you were in a situation like this and it sounds like there were many points along the way that were confusing or turned out way differently than you initially thought they would. It sounds like you were trying to figure out how to navigate the situation and you did the best you could in that uncertain moment.
People have that same uncertainty and awkwardness in new situations of every type (first day of school? First day on the job? First time trying a new instrument?) Unfortunately it's also common that unscrupulous people are only too happy to take advantage of people navigating a new situation (for example, unscrupulous salespeople, or scam artists who prey on disoriented tourists.)
This feels particularly invasive because it involves sex, of course. But what I'm trying to get at is that the way to make peace with your actions in this scenario is accepting that you acted in an understandable, forgivable, human way.
I think the suggestions to investigate fight/flight/freeze/fawn are on target. I also would advise you to take this as a learning experience to trust your gut more. This is not intended to blame you for what happened, only to be a point of reflection that could help you do differently in a situation in the future. Your gut said to go home, your gut said that stripping down to his underwear was weird, your gut said his comments afterward were confirmation of his predatory mindset. Your gut is trustworthy and it's in your best interest to believe it and act on it.
That can be hard. But remember: You do not need to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who sets off those alarm bells. You do not need to be nice to someone who is not taking "no" for an answer, even in a suave and complimentary way, because by definition they are not being nice to you. It really can be difficult to say "no"; if you find that to be true, this example is a really good illustration of the protective value of being able to do so, and it's worth the effort to cultivate that ability.
Last thought is, cultivating the ability to say "no" is important in finding a man who genuinely is trustworthy to be intimate with. You want to find someone who he will hear your "no" and honor it immediately and respectfully. It's perfectly reasonable to, say, kiss a little bit on one date, and then decline to get more intimate. And then make out on the next date, and decide that's enough for one night. And so on and so on to figure out where *your* limits are, and whether the person you're with will honor them. So, practice that "no" because it will serve you well in many ways--separating the creeps from the good guys.
posted by Sublimity at 11:32 AM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
I get the sense that you're trying to understand what was going on with him in this experience, and also what was going on with you.
We can make guesses all day about what was going on with him, and they may or may not be correct. Doesn't really matter (because you're never going to see him again, right? Please tell me I'm right. )
I think the only thing that matters here is you, how you make peace with this experience, what learnings you take from it.
I would advise being gentle with yourself. This was the first time you were in a situation like this and it sounds like there were many points along the way that were confusing or turned out way differently than you initially thought they would. It sounds like you were trying to figure out how to navigate the situation and you did the best you could in that uncertain moment.
People have that same uncertainty and awkwardness in new situations of every type (first day of school? First day on the job? First time trying a new instrument?) Unfortunately it's also common that unscrupulous people are only too happy to take advantage of people navigating a new situation (for example, unscrupulous salespeople, or scam artists who prey on disoriented tourists.)
This feels particularly invasive because it involves sex, of course. But what I'm trying to get at is that the way to make peace with your actions in this scenario is accepting that you acted in an understandable, forgivable, human way.
I think the suggestions to investigate fight/flight/freeze/fawn are on target. I also would advise you to take this as a learning experience to trust your gut more. This is not intended to blame you for what happened, only to be a point of reflection that could help you do differently in a situation in the future. Your gut said to go home, your gut said that stripping down to his underwear was weird, your gut said his comments afterward were confirmation of his predatory mindset. Your gut is trustworthy and it's in your best interest to believe it and act on it.
That can be hard. But remember: You do not need to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who sets off those alarm bells. You do not need to be nice to someone who is not taking "no" for an answer, even in a suave and complimentary way, because by definition they are not being nice to you. It really can be difficult to say "no"; if you find that to be true, this example is a really good illustration of the protective value of being able to do so, and it's worth the effort to cultivate that ability.
Last thought is, cultivating the ability to say "no" is important in finding a man who genuinely is trustworthy to be intimate with. You want to find someone who he will hear your "no" and honor it immediately and respectfully. It's perfectly reasonable to, say, kiss a little bit on one date, and then decline to get more intimate. And then make out on the next date, and decide that's enough for one night. And so on and so on to figure out where *your* limits are, and whether the person you're with will honor them. So, practice that "no" because it will serve you well in many ways--separating the creeps from the good guys.
posted by Sublimity at 11:32 AM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
@erattacorrige -- agreed that it's not really an art, I'm just using the common lingo.
In a way, what they did was applying Robert Cialdini's Principles of Influence / Compliance to dating, mixed with a bit of dark psychology (NLP, non-verbal comm, etc.)
posted by kschang at 11:50 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
In a way, what they did was applying Robert Cialdini's Principles of Influence / Compliance to dating, mixed with a bit of dark psychology (NLP, non-verbal comm, etc.)
posted by kschang at 11:50 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
OP- kschang's comments are phrased as if you did something wrong by being vulnerable and trusting. This is not the case. The person who manipulated and assaulted you is the one who is wrong. Please listen to all the other people in this thread who are truthfully naming this as assault, and not kschang's comments which might lead you to start blaming yourself.
posted by Balthamos at 12:05 PM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Balthamos at 12:05 PM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is the absolute definition of what we used to call "date rape."
I am not going to imagine that I know what this guy was thinking. It doesn't really matter whether he's an immature dude who has uncritically absorbed lots of very gross sexist ideas about sex, an intentional sexual predator with a modus operandi, or something in between. It doesn't matter. It's actually still sexual assault.
You have lots of options for how to emotionally process this, and I'd urge you to start by calling the RAINN hotline, who can get you started. For example, you can confront him or not, you can go to the police or not, you can decide what name you want to give this incident in your head (rape, assault, coercion, etc.) to acknowledge it as real, you can work out how to view that night without blaming yourself, etc.
posted by desuetude at 12:09 PM on July 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
I am not going to imagine that I know what this guy was thinking. It doesn't really matter whether he's an immature dude who has uncritically absorbed lots of very gross sexist ideas about sex, an intentional sexual predator with a modus operandi, or something in between. It doesn't matter. It's actually still sexual assault.
You have lots of options for how to emotionally process this, and I'd urge you to start by calling the RAINN hotline, who can get you started. For example, you can confront him or not, you can go to the police or not, you can decide what name you want to give this incident in your head (rape, assault, coercion, etc.) to acknowledge it as real, you can work out how to view that night without blaming yourself, etc.
posted by desuetude at 12:09 PM on July 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
My heart goes out to you. This was not ok.
I don't know if it helps, but almost all of us have experienced some form of date rape/coercion/sexual gaslighting. Please know that wherever you go, you are among women who know the thing you've been through because they have been through it as well. It's a shitty kind of sisterhood, but it's there.
You are not alone.
It was not okay.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:52 PM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't know if it helps, but almost all of us have experienced some form of date rape/coercion/sexual gaslighting. Please know that wherever you go, you are among women who know the thing you've been through because they have been through it as well. It's a shitty kind of sisterhood, but it's there.
You are not alone.
It was not okay.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:52 PM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
“I think I should leave” is not a pretty clear no, that comment could be interpreted a lot of different ways and it really depends on tone. Its hard to know not having actually been there.
It sounds like he repeatedly asked for consent and verified that what he was doing was ok with you and you said yes — so I am not sure how this could qualify as sexual assault legally.
Coercion is using force or threats and here convincing you not to go home probably doesn’t qualify.
I really do sympathize, I am sure a lot of the people in this thread (including myself) have been in a similar situation and felt like absolute shit afterwards.
I don’t think seeing yourself as a victim of assault here will necessarily help you —I think going to a therapist and working on your boundaries and ability to express agency in stressful situations could keep this from happening again though.
This sort of situation where guys sort of skeezily lure you into potentially sexual situations is so common— especially if your at all active on dating apps. If you keep dating no doubt there will be even more high pressure sex related situations that will require you to exert personal agency and be in touch with your feelings, its unfortunately the reality of the current world and you want to be as prepared to deal with it as possible.
posted by Res0ndf7 at 12:59 PM on July 1, 2021 [10 favorites]
It sounds like he repeatedly asked for consent and verified that what he was doing was ok with you and you said yes — so I am not sure how this could qualify as sexual assault legally.
Coercion is using force or threats and here convincing you not to go home probably doesn’t qualify.
I really do sympathize, I am sure a lot of the people in this thread (including myself) have been in a similar situation and felt like absolute shit afterwards.
I don’t think seeing yourself as a victim of assault here will necessarily help you —I think going to a therapist and working on your boundaries and ability to express agency in stressful situations could keep this from happening again though.
This sort of situation where guys sort of skeezily lure you into potentially sexual situations is so common— especially if your at all active on dating apps. If you keep dating no doubt there will be even more high pressure sex related situations that will require you to exert personal agency and be in touch with your feelings, its unfortunately the reality of the current world and you want to be as prepared to deal with it as possible.
posted by Res0ndf7 at 12:59 PM on July 1, 2021 [10 favorites]
OP -- you are getting various answers all along the spectrum, and I have said my piece (and other people have reacted to my opinion). I'll just add:
* If you think there's a problem, then there's a problem. And you WERE taken advantage of and pressured into doing something you did not want to do, into what can be termed as "dubious consent".
* It is not good to dwell on the past, and you are clearly hung up about this for over a month. I am NOT telling you to "get over it". That never works. You need to talk to a counselor to work out how you feel about this.
* There is clearly a communications problem as he's not listening to your single refusal, and you did say yes later. Your therapist / counselor can help you be more assertive on what you really mean despite outside pressure.
Please seek some professional help for your own peace of mind, rather than relying on us, random voices on the Interwebs.
posted by kschang at 1:19 PM on July 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
* If you think there's a problem, then there's a problem. And you WERE taken advantage of and pressured into doing something you did not want to do, into what can be termed as "dubious consent".
* It is not good to dwell on the past, and you are clearly hung up about this for over a month. I am NOT telling you to "get over it". That never works. You need to talk to a counselor to work out how you feel about this.
* There is clearly a communications problem as he's not listening to your single refusal, and you did say yes later. Your therapist / counselor can help you be more assertive on what you really mean despite outside pressure.
Please seek some professional help for your own peace of mind, rather than relying on us, random voices on the Interwebs.
posted by kschang at 1:19 PM on July 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
Sexual coercion (as defined by womenshealth.gov is actually "unwanted sexual activity that happens when you are pressured, tricked, threatened, or forced in a nonphysical way."
If the OP felt pressured or tricked ( as OP stated: he lied to me to get back to my apartment) then what happened fits the definition of coercion.
Also, if anyone I was coming onto ever said "I think I should leave" I would personally take that as a clear no. The guy who assaulted OP also made a comment indicating that he thought the lack of enthusiastic informed consent "made it kind of hot". That indicates to me that he knew exactly what he was doing.
I'm seriously upset (but unfortunately not surprised, this is one reason why so many people never tell anyone what happens to them) that anyone can read the account of what happened to the OP and not see this guy as a predator. I am concerned for his future victims.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 1:23 PM on July 1, 2021 [15 favorites]
If the OP felt pressured or tricked ( as OP stated: he lied to me to get back to my apartment) then what happened fits the definition of coercion.
Also, if anyone I was coming onto ever said "I think I should leave" I would personally take that as a clear no. The guy who assaulted OP also made a comment indicating that he thought the lack of enthusiastic informed consent "made it kind of hot". That indicates to me that he knew exactly what he was doing.
I'm seriously upset (but unfortunately not surprised, this is one reason why so many people never tell anyone what happens to them) that anyone can read the account of what happened to the OP and not see this guy as a predator. I am concerned for his future victims.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 1:23 PM on July 1, 2021 [15 favorites]
A further thought about this guy: Sex isn't some kind of strategy game where it's okay to look for weakness, conceal information, pressure someone repeatedly in the hopes that they will change their mind or give up, etc. Human responsibility - how we should be - is thinking of the other person with care. That means that if you have clear reason to think that the other person may be confused, misinformed, traumatized, scared, reluctant, doing something because they feel like they have to please others, etc, then you withdraw your request. You don't go on like "hey, this person doesn't really understand the implications of what I asked for and almost certainly wouldn't like it if they did, but whatever, I'm getting what I want".
Using people like their personhood is just an obstacle preventing you from fulfilling your desires - that's the worst, the inhuman act, probably the foundation of all bad action. It's not just "what men do" or "what happens on dating apps" any more than capitalism is just "what happens when people have some chickens and would like some flax".
posted by Frowner at 3:26 PM on July 1, 2021 [25 favorites]
Using people like their personhood is just an obstacle preventing you from fulfilling your desires - that's the worst, the inhuman act, probably the foundation of all bad action. It's not just "what men do" or "what happens on dating apps" any more than capitalism is just "what happens when people have some chickens and would like some flax".
posted by Frowner at 3:26 PM on July 1, 2021 [25 favorites]
I wanna add this for you to consider: for me the ‘offer’ to sleep in my bed and ‘cuddle’ me is a demand that is SUPER intimate! That’s something to save for when you’ve built some comfortable togetherness. It’s okay to care as much about your actual sleep as it is to care about sex. A guy pretending to want a pyjama party experience then stripping down immediately is so entitled, rude and boorish. Yet it seems there are too many blokes who are keenly interested in circumventing basic manners. When does anyone else ‘offer’ to get a night’s sleep in your home??
[I’m at an age now that my bedtime routine involves doing meditation, putting on my sleeping nose patches, eye creams, hair elastic etc NOT indulging a man-baby who wants to try actual living-together intimacy *on a first date* JFC dude]
posted by honey-barbara at 6:36 PM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
[I’m at an age now that my bedtime routine involves doing meditation, putting on my sleeping nose patches, eye creams, hair elastic etc NOT indulging a man-baby who wants to try actual living-together intimacy *on a first date* JFC dude]
posted by honey-barbara at 6:36 PM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Since we don't know where the questioner is located, and laws differ by jurisdiction, it is not possible to state that what happened was 'definitively anything' legally. The guy was an asshole, but being an asshole is not a crime. He may or may not have committed a crime. Telling the questioner that the guy absolutely committed a crime doesn't necessarily help them, and might even be counterproductive if they then report it as such and are met with a response that it wasn't. They should seek local advice from a trusted source about that.
The sex was unwanted, but for example, in Canada, this would not be charged as a crime, based on what was written. The initial 'I should leave" was to a suggestion to find a more private location. It was clearly not consent for any further activity, which means that before there is ANY sexual contact, clear consent must be received. It is not a bar to seeking that consent. It is not assault to ask again. It is consistent with being an asshole, depending on the circumstances, but it is not criminal to seek consent after an initial refusal of consent.
After that, it appears that ALL explicit requests for consent were met with verbal (and according to the questioner, possibly even enthusiastic) consent. Asking at each stage for consent is consistent with the law in Canada that consent must exist for each type of act, and it is recommended that consent be confirmed repeatedly as sexual contact progresses, especially if he knew it was their first time.
The questioner did not say that the guy coerced them into sex. He tricked them to get to their home. However, it appears that all sexual contact was only ofter consent was sought, and received. I agree that the guy was unduly persistent, and should have backed off. I would, however, not describe what happened as a sexual assault or a crime at all on the law of consent as it is in Canada.
But that doesn't mean the questioner should not consider this a big deal. It is. The suggestions that they seek advice on how to be more assertive is valuable. It is not victim blaming, because they are not a victim. They are someone who did something they didn't want to do. It is recommended to find ways to not do that again, in every sphere of their life. Assholes abound, and the questioner was taken advantage of. Feeling taken advantage of would not be unwarranted here. But if you ask me, as a lawyer in Canada, was this assault if it happened in Canada, with this information? No.
posted by birdsquared at 1:18 AM on July 2, 2021 [11 favorites]
The sex was unwanted, but for example, in Canada, this would not be charged as a crime, based on what was written. The initial 'I should leave" was to a suggestion to find a more private location. It was clearly not consent for any further activity, which means that before there is ANY sexual contact, clear consent must be received. It is not a bar to seeking that consent. It is not assault to ask again. It is consistent with being an asshole, depending on the circumstances, but it is not criminal to seek consent after an initial refusal of consent.
After that, it appears that ALL explicit requests for consent were met with verbal (and according to the questioner, possibly even enthusiastic) consent. Asking at each stage for consent is consistent with the law in Canada that consent must exist for each type of act, and it is recommended that consent be confirmed repeatedly as sexual contact progresses, especially if he knew it was their first time.
The questioner did not say that the guy coerced them into sex. He tricked them to get to their home. However, it appears that all sexual contact was only ofter consent was sought, and received. I agree that the guy was unduly persistent, and should have backed off. I would, however, not describe what happened as a sexual assault or a crime at all on the law of consent as it is in Canada.
But that doesn't mean the questioner should not consider this a big deal. It is. The suggestions that they seek advice on how to be more assertive is valuable. It is not victim blaming, because they are not a victim. They are someone who did something they didn't want to do. It is recommended to find ways to not do that again, in every sphere of their life. Assholes abound, and the questioner was taken advantage of. Feeling taken advantage of would not be unwarranted here. But if you ask me, as a lawyer in Canada, was this assault if it happened in Canada, with this information? No.
posted by birdsquared at 1:18 AM on July 2, 2021 [11 favorites]
I'm seriously upset (but unfortunately not surprised, this is one reason why so many people never tell anyone what happens to them) that anyone can read the account of what happened to the OP and not see this guy as a predator.
Same same.
Further, it's upsetting that it seems quite likely, given what we know about prevailing social norms, that the guy quite likely doesn't see himself that way. Which is exactly why I think teaching enthusiastic continuous consent in schools is so vital: it would benefit both those seeking that consent and those considering offering it.
A related principle that I think should also be taught at the same time is that if a person you're proposing to have sex with is not every bit as enthusiastic about doing so as you are, then what you're contemplating having is not sex but an overcomplicated and unjustifiably bruising wank.
Sex is about mutual pleasure. If one of the participants is merely using the other for their own gratification then they're completely missing the point, and it would be better if they just took themselves off somewhere else and used a rubber fuck toy instead.
So if you've been in bed with somebody and wound up feeling like you've just been used as if you were a mere rubber fuck toy: your agency has been dismissed, your vulnerability has been ignored, and you've been demeaned and treated like an inanimate object by somebody who is at best a selfish, entitled, ignorant, inconsiderate fool and that's not OK regardless of whether or not a charge of sexual assault would stand up in court.
Sad fact is that far too many judges, juries and legislators are also ignorant, inconsiderate fools in this area, and the only way this is ever going to change is generationally.
posted by flabdablet at 4:43 AM on July 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
Same same.
Further, it's upsetting that it seems quite likely, given what we know about prevailing social norms, that the guy quite likely doesn't see himself that way. Which is exactly why I think teaching enthusiastic continuous consent in schools is so vital: it would benefit both those seeking that consent and those considering offering it.
A related principle that I think should also be taught at the same time is that if a person you're proposing to have sex with is not every bit as enthusiastic about doing so as you are, then what you're contemplating having is not sex but an overcomplicated and unjustifiably bruising wank.
Sex is about mutual pleasure. If one of the participants is merely using the other for their own gratification then they're completely missing the point, and it would be better if they just took themselves off somewhere else and used a rubber fuck toy instead.
So if you've been in bed with somebody and wound up feeling like you've just been used as if you were a mere rubber fuck toy: your agency has been dismissed, your vulnerability has been ignored, and you've been demeaned and treated like an inanimate object by somebody who is at best a selfish, entitled, ignorant, inconsiderate fool and that's not OK regardless of whether or not a charge of sexual assault would stand up in court.
Sad fact is that far too many judges, juries and legislators are also ignorant, inconsiderate fools in this area, and the only way this is ever going to change is generationally.
posted by flabdablet at 4:43 AM on July 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
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posted by erattacorrige at 4:01 AM on July 1, 2021 [12 favorites]