Tween girl shenanigans are beginning...
June 17, 2021 12:31 PM Subscribe
Well, it's happening. The sneaky puberty-related tween girl things. Please help me handle them.
To begin, this isn't a terrible thing. My 10 year-old shaved her legs for the first time last night, although I told her she wasn't allowed to do that yet. Found the leg hair in the bathtub, haha. I'm the mom in this situation and I'm struggling a little with how I should react to this - it could really set the scene for other stuff that's sure to come soon - everything from lying about where she's going after school (big yikes) to sneakily stuffing her bra or wearing lipstick or mascara to school (not such a big yikes).
Dad doesn't care about the leg shaving. Only wants to punish her for lying about it (he noticed her with his shaving cream and she said she only wanted to play with it in the bath).
Me, I'm a mom who doesn't know how to handle this stuff. I've been debating the leg shaving thing in my head and while as a feminist I think leg shaving is a dumb thing we do mainly for the male gaze, or to signal our conformance, and we shouldn't be ashamed of our body hair anyhow, yadda yadda. On the other hand, it's not good to tell young women/girls what they can or can't do with their bodies and appearances.
A lot of this is tied up with discomfort over her going through puberty, and while the world has moved on with how we handle these things, I suppose I haven't yet? I was born in the '80s. It's like, in theory, yes, girls should be allowed to have bare shoulders at school, but my child? Nope. I really need to get over this.
Suggestions? Books? Podcasts? I have a good relationship with this girl - we can joke and talk about almost any topic, including sex recently. But I still haven't had a discussion with her about how she's not supposed to have sex until...I don't even know what the answer to that is supposed to be. She's pretty good at pushing boundaries and probably took a calculated risk that if/when I found out she shaved her legs, I wasn't going to react too strongly. I'm a terrible noticer of appearances and I'm always distracted about something or other, and I haven't been able to 'fix' this about myself. Plus I have a three year old as well. So she can get away with a lot if she wants. And I'm pretty sure - she does want. She looks older than she is, she's hilarious, I think she'll always be popular and...I'm really nervous about all this as a former bookworm who was really awkward and unpopular before high school.
To begin, this isn't a terrible thing. My 10 year-old shaved her legs for the first time last night, although I told her she wasn't allowed to do that yet. Found the leg hair in the bathtub, haha. I'm the mom in this situation and I'm struggling a little with how I should react to this - it could really set the scene for other stuff that's sure to come soon - everything from lying about where she's going after school (big yikes) to sneakily stuffing her bra or wearing lipstick or mascara to school (not such a big yikes).
Dad doesn't care about the leg shaving. Only wants to punish her for lying about it (he noticed her with his shaving cream and she said she only wanted to play with it in the bath).
Me, I'm a mom who doesn't know how to handle this stuff. I've been debating the leg shaving thing in my head and while as a feminist I think leg shaving is a dumb thing we do mainly for the male gaze, or to signal our conformance, and we shouldn't be ashamed of our body hair anyhow, yadda yadda. On the other hand, it's not good to tell young women/girls what they can or can't do with their bodies and appearances.
A lot of this is tied up with discomfort over her going through puberty, and while the world has moved on with how we handle these things, I suppose I haven't yet? I was born in the '80s. It's like, in theory, yes, girls should be allowed to have bare shoulders at school, but my child? Nope. I really need to get over this.
Suggestions? Books? Podcasts? I have a good relationship with this girl - we can joke and talk about almost any topic, including sex recently. But I still haven't had a discussion with her about how she's not supposed to have sex until...I don't even know what the answer to that is supposed to be. She's pretty good at pushing boundaries and probably took a calculated risk that if/when I found out she shaved her legs, I wasn't going to react too strongly. I'm a terrible noticer of appearances and I'm always distracted about something or other, and I haven't been able to 'fix' this about myself. Plus I have a three year old as well. So she can get away with a lot if she wants. And I'm pretty sure - she does want. She looks older than she is, she's hilarious, I think she'll always be popular and...I'm really nervous about all this as a former bookworm who was really awkward and unpopular before high school.
Hmm, I shaved the bottom half of my legs at 11 years old when I was not allowed to because I wanted to experience it - no other reason. I remember how weird shaved legs felt on my sheets when I was trying to sleep and had a conversation with my sister about it in the morning. Then I didn't shave again until I was much older, maybe 13? I remember the older girls shaving their legs at Girl Scout camp, and I was like there's no way in hell I'm going to shave during a 10 minute shower with no hot water! I didn't grow up to be a wild kid or even someone who broke the rules usually.
Anyways, my point is that kids do things they're not supposed to all of the time because they're learning what they like and don't like. Shaving her legs is just all wrapped up in feminism, body autonomy, standards of beauty and male gaze, puberty, growing up etc., etc., it's very loaded. Kiddo might have realized she doesn't like to shave too!
I suggest just having a chill conversation with her about why she decided to do that and more practically, did she cut herself, and is she dealing with razor bump? Do you have a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves? I'd buy a copy and put it on the bookshelf where she can reach it so she can answer any curious questions she has. A lot of times I wouldn't ask my mom something - not because I was embarrassed, but because I didn't want to go through the whole production of explaining why I wanted to know.
posted by pumpkinlatte at 12:51 PM on June 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
Anyways, my point is that kids do things they're not supposed to all of the time because they're learning what they like and don't like. Shaving her legs is just all wrapped up in feminism, body autonomy, standards of beauty and male gaze, puberty, growing up etc., etc., it's very loaded. Kiddo might have realized she doesn't like to shave too!
I suggest just having a chill conversation with her about why she decided to do that and more practically, did she cut herself, and is she dealing with razor bump? Do you have a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves? I'd buy a copy and put it on the bookshelf where she can reach it so she can answer any curious questions she has. A lot of times I wouldn't ask my mom something - not because I was embarrassed, but because I didn't want to go through the whole production of explaining why I wanted to know.
posted by pumpkinlatte at 12:51 PM on June 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
Interrogating her about the shaving cream, punishing her for lying about shaving her legs, and generally making a huge deal about the whole thing is only going to make her more secretive and sneaky about things in the future. If she wants to shave her legs, get her some nice razors and leave her to it (maybe give her some pointers on technique). It's great that you have a good, open and honest relationship with her now. If you want to foster it as she continues to grow up, keep the lines of communication open and non-judgemental, and don't panic when she expresses curiosity about normal parts of puberty like managing body hair.
posted by cakelite at 12:53 PM on June 17, 2021 [84 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 12:53 PM on June 17, 2021 [84 favorites]
I think you need to be really clear on WHY you don't want her to shave / have sex until she's whatever age. Otherwise your own rules won't make sense to you, your daughter will instinctively know you're bullshitting her, you'll be caving under the boundary pushing and it'll become a big mess.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:55 PM on June 17, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by Omnomnom at 12:55 PM on June 17, 2021 [16 favorites]
As someone who hates the way body hair feels on her own body, I kinda winced that your only equation is leg shaving = negative connotation.
Let her try the things (safely, confidently) in a judgment free zone. Maybe apologize for trying to put enforcement or freaking out about her handling of her body hair in the first place.
posted by haplesschild at 12:57 PM on June 17, 2021 [28 favorites]
Let her try the things (safely, confidently) in a judgment free zone. Maybe apologize for trying to put enforcement or freaking out about her handling of her body hair in the first place.
posted by haplesschild at 12:57 PM on June 17, 2021 [28 favorites]
we shouldn't be ashamed of our body hair anyhow, yadda yadda.
Few of us start getting that at 10 or 11 or 12 or 13 or even 14. It takes time to see patriarchy over your own insecurity and self-consciousness. Control over one's appearance is one of the few things kids have as they grasp toward adulthood. Pierced ears, padded bras. Why is she wearing a skirt with a waist like Ed Grimley's? I do not know.
Llama kid started shaving her legs around ten. She asked if she could and we said, 'they're your legs' which I think is as good a message as any. They were hairy and she felt she'd like them not to be. That was it.
I have a million failed parenting strategies so maybe that's one? I don't know.
I told her some girls and women wear make up, some don't, some boys and men wear make up, some don't. Personally, I like to, because I find putting it on relaxing, but it's a personal choice and she can or cannot as she wants. So far as far as I can tell, even though she has my make up and hers (got her some in her stocking for Xmas; she's about to be thirteen) she just wears a little to cover spots and maybe lip balm.
As she says about herself, "I'm not an edgy kid" -- so maybe she isn't as interested as pushing boundaries as others, or maybe in terms of physical appearance, we haven't presented many that needed pushing. When she's really pissed about something i.e. why does the internet go off at 9:30? we really get an earful. But to me, that's different than appearance stuff.
I don't care if her hair is purple or whatever but I'm kind of hoping I don't have to deal with her cleavage at brunch on Mother's Day three years from now and if I do, I hope I can find the strength to look her in the eyes and leave it alone.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:58 PM on June 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
Few of us start getting that at 10 or 11 or 12 or 13 or even 14. It takes time to see patriarchy over your own insecurity and self-consciousness. Control over one's appearance is one of the few things kids have as they grasp toward adulthood. Pierced ears, padded bras. Why is she wearing a skirt with a waist like Ed Grimley's? I do not know.
Llama kid started shaving her legs around ten. She asked if she could and we said, 'they're your legs' which I think is as good a message as any. They were hairy and she felt she'd like them not to be. That was it.
I have a million failed parenting strategies so maybe that's one? I don't know.
I told her some girls and women wear make up, some don't, some boys and men wear make up, some don't. Personally, I like to, because I find putting it on relaxing, but it's a personal choice and she can or cannot as she wants. So far as far as I can tell, even though she has my make up and hers (got her some in her stocking for Xmas; she's about to be thirteen) she just wears a little to cover spots and maybe lip balm.
As she says about herself, "I'm not an edgy kid" -- so maybe she isn't as interested as pushing boundaries as others, or maybe in terms of physical appearance, we haven't presented many that needed pushing. When she's really pissed about something i.e. why does the internet go off at 9:30? we really get an earful. But to me, that's different than appearance stuff.
I don't care if her hair is purple or whatever but I'm kind of hoping I don't have to deal with her cleavage at brunch on Mother's Day three years from now and if I do, I hope I can find the strength to look her in the eyes and leave it alone.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 12:58 PM on June 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
Giving her body autonomy on things like leg hair and having quality discussions on how you feel about shaving is probably going the long term outcome that you want than trying to ban it.
The urge to fit in with peers and friends is intense at that age. Choose the battles that are important so that if she ends up at a party where there's drugs/sex/alcohol and needs an exit, she's comfortable calling you.
Also, did she hit puberty earlier than you? Girls are doing so earlier than older generations, so if you're comparing your experiences to hers at the same age rather than stage of development, it may be different for her.
posted by Candleman at 1:04 PM on June 17, 2021 [19 favorites]
The urge to fit in with peers and friends is intense at that age. Choose the battles that are important so that if she ends up at a party where there's drugs/sex/alcohol and needs an exit, she's comfortable calling you.
Also, did she hit puberty earlier than you? Girls are doing so earlier than older generations, so if you're comparing your experiences to hers at the same age rather than stage of development, it may be different for her.
posted by Candleman at 1:04 PM on June 17, 2021 [19 favorites]
Do you have a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves?
(below = potentially triggering)
I put some age appropriate recommended-on-metafilter puberty/sex/growing up books on her bookshelves in her bedroom without drawing attention to it, and I do own a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves in my office that she can access any time but heads up there is an image of a woman dead from a coat-hanger abortion. There are other graphic images - but that's one I would kind of prefer my kid wait a little bit to see. As far as I know she's still perusing the ones for younger audiences. I don't keep it hidden, it's right there, but I think she could use a few years before it got my full recommendation.
I saw an amazing overview of period products for first period-havers, by the way, and was thrilled to have it when she started her period and even though it's a little off topic I'll post if I can find. I shared it with her, but it helped *me* with my tone in speaking to her and being comfortable with her road to adulthood.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:08 PM on June 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
(below = potentially triggering)
I put some age appropriate recommended-on-metafilter puberty/sex/growing up books on her bookshelves in her bedroom without drawing attention to it, and I do own a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves in my office that she can access any time but heads up there is an image of a woman dead from a coat-hanger abortion. There are other graphic images - but that's one I would kind of prefer my kid wait a little bit to see. As far as I know she's still perusing the ones for younger audiences. I don't keep it hidden, it's right there, but I think she could use a few years before it got my full recommendation.
I saw an amazing overview of period products for first period-havers, by the way, and was thrilled to have it when she started her period and even though it's a little off topic I'll post if I can find. I shared it with her, but it helped *me* with my tone in speaking to her and being comfortable with her road to adulthood.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:08 PM on June 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Otherwise your own rules won't make sense to you
This made me laugh out loud, because it's 100 percent the problem here. I don't know why I was against leg shaving. I thought - well once you start, you can't stop. Which is just...silly.
posted by kitcat at 1:10 PM on June 17, 2021 [32 favorites]
This made me laugh out loud, because it's 100 percent the problem here. I don't know why I was against leg shaving. I thought - well once you start, you can't stop. Which is just...silly.
posted by kitcat at 1:10 PM on June 17, 2021 [32 favorites]
I have children. They're all different. They're also themselves, from a very early age.
You can't make them you. They won't be, and it'll confuse and irritate them.
Don't try to impose your politics on them. It's just not that simple.
You're not right, she's not innocent or wrong, she just wants to be an adult and shave her legs. It won't change the world. Making her stop isn't a blow for or against anything. Don't confuse raising children with making a political statement. It's a very bad mistake to make. Be there for your daughter, not for your political views. She has to make her way in the world, and she needs you to be there to support her.
Life isn't easy. Don't make it more difficult.
Don't force your child to rebel.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 1:12 PM on June 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
You can't make them you. They won't be, and it'll confuse and irritate them.
Don't try to impose your politics on them. It's just not that simple.
You're not right, she's not innocent or wrong, she just wants to be an adult and shave her legs. It won't change the world. Making her stop isn't a blow for or against anything. Don't confuse raising children with making a political statement. It's a very bad mistake to make. Be there for your daughter, not for your political views. She has to make her way in the world, and she needs you to be there to support her.
Life isn't easy. Don't make it more difficult.
Don't force your child to rebel.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 1:12 PM on June 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
At 10, she might be a little young for this book, but it's still more age-appropriate than Our Bodies, Ourselves:
Wait, What?: A Comic Book Guide to Relationships, Bodies, and Growing Up
And I'd recommend Scarleteen as well, founded by the same author.
posted by fiercecupcake at 1:14 PM on June 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
Wait, What?: A Comic Book Guide to Relationships, Bodies, and Growing Up
And I'd recommend Scarleteen as well, founded by the same author.
posted by fiercecupcake at 1:14 PM on June 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
once you start, you can't stop
Just in case, you do know that shaving making hair stronger/darker is a myth? You can most definitely stop. The only permanent treatment is laser, though in my experience regular depilator use also makes hair semi-permanently weaker by damaging the follicles.
In my case half the family threw a fit when my mom let me pluck my eyebrows around age 12. That did have a permanent impact on my unibrow, and I'm only grateful that she helped me pick a flattering and not too thin shape that has stood the rigours of fashion in the intervening *mumble* years.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 1:18 PM on June 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
Just in case, you do know that shaving making hair stronger/darker is a myth? You can most definitely stop. The only permanent treatment is laser, though in my experience regular depilator use also makes hair semi-permanently weaker by damaging the follicles.
In my case half the family threw a fit when my mom let me pluck my eyebrows around age 12. That did have a permanent impact on my unibrow, and I'm only grateful that she helped me pick a flattering and not too thin shape that has stood the rigours of fashion in the intervening *mumble* years.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 1:18 PM on June 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
I think this particular battle might be a great one to take on as an adult-to-protoadult meta-conversation about Growing Up Stuff and bodily autonomy. I don't think you're going to come out the winner trying to punish someone for shaving their legs, but it can be the jumping-off point for a conversation about "I set these guidelines because I have strong feelings about the social implications and we can have conversations about them if you strongly disagree because you get a say in what you do with your body, but if your solution to something this small is going behind my back and lying to your dad, where do you think that's going to leave us on trusting you? Displays of responsibility are what earn you additional responsibilities."
For the most part, as frustrating as it is to us older people, I don't think kids process this stuff as being For The Male Gaze. Like I don't think she's trying to get a man, I don't think stuffing her bra (not really your business if she does, honestly, assuming stuff isn't falling out and getting lost/damaged) or wearing makeup - especially in today's climate where makeup is a creative art - is about anything other than processing bodily changes and insecurities, and I think to some extent these are private things that she has private thoughts about that she doesn't owe you, even though they are outwardly visible to others.
You kinda still have the means to forbid stuff, but I think you'll get a lot farther asking for input on boundaries than declaring them arbitrarily. I don't know what you want to be the end result in this situation, I think you could try "okay now you've tried it, can you please leave it alone for a few more years before deciding to do it again?" and see if you get any kind of informative answer to work from.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:19 PM on June 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
For the most part, as frustrating as it is to us older people, I don't think kids process this stuff as being For The Male Gaze. Like I don't think she's trying to get a man, I don't think stuffing her bra (not really your business if she does, honestly, assuming stuff isn't falling out and getting lost/damaged) or wearing makeup - especially in today's climate where makeup is a creative art - is about anything other than processing bodily changes and insecurities, and I think to some extent these are private things that she has private thoughts about that she doesn't owe you, even though they are outwardly visible to others.
You kinda still have the means to forbid stuff, but I think you'll get a lot farther asking for input on boundaries than declaring them arbitrarily. I don't know what you want to be the end result in this situation, I think you could try "okay now you've tried it, can you please leave it alone for a few more years before deciding to do it again?" and see if you get any kind of informative answer to work from.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:19 PM on June 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Here's the period thing. I gave it to her after she started, at twelve. It's graphic but it's so friendly and cheerful and modern and it's relatable and succinct.
Bringing it up because the whole 'puberty/changing bodies' thing is an ongoing a few steps forward/a few steps back filled with surprise awkwardness and soul-searching and I was really grateful to find this direct and positive resource exactly when I needed it and it is so much more information than I could ever convey.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:21 PM on June 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
Bringing it up because the whole 'puberty/changing bodies' thing is an ongoing a few steps forward/a few steps back filled with surprise awkwardness and soul-searching and I was really grateful to find this direct and positive resource exactly when I needed it and it is so much more information than I could ever convey.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:21 PM on June 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
You want to handle this in a way that leaves the lines of communication open. She was curious, she tried it. Cakelite has a good script on the check-in, which would have happened if there was better communication on both sides.
It’s new, and maybe rather than lifting heavy freight, you might mention that, as a personal choice about hygiene, it’s something she will decide (and do-or-not-do) for the rest of her life, so delaying it (and the associated discomforts, purchases and clean-up) is what a lot of people do.
She does not have to hide it or lie about it. Is she worried about what hair shows with a swimsuit or just her legs?
It’s been a minute since mine was that age, we had a lead-in with an American Girl book, and I will nth having a book on hand as internet searches are Not Great when a teen may want Quiet Information. As far as websites, Scarleteen? was a good reference…for parents as well as teens.
As far as how to talk to her - in a way that helps her come back to you, regardless of how your middle school years were. Give yourself a hug as you lived through a lot and now have a vivacious daughter. Help her learn not to “sneak”. If it becomes a habit it will harm her adult relationships. Ask. Tell her when she’s getting good at skills that will help her relationships, too.
posted by childofTethys at 1:23 PM on June 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
It’s new, and maybe rather than lifting heavy freight, you might mention that, as a personal choice about hygiene, it’s something she will decide (and do-or-not-do) for the rest of her life, so delaying it (and the associated discomforts, purchases and clean-up) is what a lot of people do.
She does not have to hide it or lie about it. Is she worried about what hair shows with a swimsuit or just her legs?
It’s been a minute since mine was that age, we had a lead-in with an American Girl book, and I will nth having a book on hand as internet searches are Not Great when a teen may want Quiet Information. As far as websites, Scarleteen? was a good reference…for parents as well as teens.
As far as how to talk to her - in a way that helps her come back to you, regardless of how your middle school years were. Give yourself a hug as you lived through a lot and now have a vivacious daughter. Help her learn not to “sneak”. If it becomes a habit it will harm her adult relationships. Ask. Tell her when she’s getting good at skills that will help her relationships, too.
posted by childofTethys at 1:23 PM on June 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don't know why I was against leg shaving. I thought - well once you start, you can't stop. Which is just...silly.
Hehe, I totally get you. I, too, am of the "make it up as you go along" school of parenting.
You know that it's okay to change your mind? You can own your conflictedness. You could totally have a discussion with her (separate from the talk about lying!) about why you told her shaving was off the table. Like, "I am super conflicted about shaving. (Reasons why it's bad.) I grew up under a ton of pressure about what women should look like. It made me feel X. And I worry a lot that you'll also experience X, Y, and Z. That's a big reason why I wanted to keep that from you for another few years. On the other hand people should get a say about their own bodies. (Or whatever.) "
I think children value authenticity. They respect truth. Even if it means accepting that mom is not perfectly decisive. It may not get you much further on the "don't grow up so fast" issue, but it will help with your relationship in general.
And really, spend time reflecting on the "puberty discommfort" thing. Talk to your husband, friends or even a therapist about your conflicted feelings. As you say, this is going to crop up more and more often. Sorting out the groundwork now will pay off dividends!
posted by Omnomnom at 1:29 PM on June 17, 2021 [28 favorites]
Hehe, I totally get you. I, too, am of the "make it up as you go along" school of parenting.
You know that it's okay to change your mind? You can own your conflictedness. You could totally have a discussion with her (separate from the talk about lying!) about why you told her shaving was off the table. Like, "I am super conflicted about shaving. (Reasons why it's bad.) I grew up under a ton of pressure about what women should look like. It made me feel X. And I worry a lot that you'll also experience X, Y, and Z. That's a big reason why I wanted to keep that from you for another few years. On the other hand people should get a say about their own bodies. (Or whatever.) "
I think children value authenticity. They respect truth. Even if it means accepting that mom is not perfectly decisive. It may not get you much further on the "don't grow up so fast" issue, but it will help with your relationship in general.
And really, spend time reflecting on the "puberty discommfort" thing. Talk to your husband, friends or even a therapist about your conflicted feelings. As you say, this is going to crop up more and more often. Sorting out the groundwork now will pay off dividends!
posted by Omnomnom at 1:29 PM on June 17, 2021 [28 favorites]
If school isn't dramatically less horrible than when I was growing up, there is already a really strong, moralized discourse about what girls "should" do about their leg hair. It is quite possible that many of the popular/"mainstream" girls are already shaving their legs, talk about it amongst themselves and make it clear that not shaving is freakish and unclean. It is quite possible that the boys talk both amongst themselves and to the girls about which girls shave their legs, what is normal and what is disgusting.
It is quite possible that your daughter wants to shave her legs in order to stop being bullied or to avoid the bullying that she sees other girls experiencing, and/or that she has internalized the guilt and panic that comes with transgressing the extremely strong body discourse that develops among tweens. It's also possible that she does not want to tell you this, either because it seems too shameful/stressful or because she feels like you won't be receptive.
When I was a child I was forbidden to do a LOT of normal, safe things that my peers did and this made life very much harder than it had to be. My parents were 95% fantastic and above average and I feel very fortunate about most aspects of my family life as a child, but they had this strange refusal to pay attention to or accept the ordinary daily lives of regular children. (I am sure, for many reasons, that they did not think of us as a regular family.)
In short, it's better to let a kid conform than to force them to stand out.
posted by Frowner at 1:30 PM on June 17, 2021 [57 favorites]
It is quite possible that your daughter wants to shave her legs in order to stop being bullied or to avoid the bullying that she sees other girls experiencing, and/or that she has internalized the guilt and panic that comes with transgressing the extremely strong body discourse that develops among tweens. It's also possible that she does not want to tell you this, either because it seems too shameful/stressful or because she feels like you won't be receptive.
When I was a child I was forbidden to do a LOT of normal, safe things that my peers did and this made life very much harder than it had to be. My parents were 95% fantastic and above average and I feel very fortunate about most aspects of my family life as a child, but they had this strange refusal to pay attention to or accept the ordinary daily lives of regular children. (I am sure, for many reasons, that they did not think of us as a regular family.)
In short, it's better to let a kid conform than to force them to stand out.
posted by Frowner at 1:30 PM on June 17, 2021 [57 favorites]
My parents were very conservative about all these matters, and it didn't occur to them to forbid me to shave my legs, so...not too sure what the deal there is? The more kind, relaxed, and straightforward you can be about all puberty bodily changes and (nonabusive) means of managing (or not managing) them, the better it will be for all concerned. Just remind her gently that she needs to clean up after herself, and make sure she knows where first aid is located if she cuts herself. You desperately want your teenage girl to be comfortable talking to you and not feeling like her body is a zone of danger that can trigger anger or punishment from you.
posted by praemunire at 1:32 PM on June 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 1:32 PM on June 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
I got practical help with teaching the art of leg-shaving when my (then) almost-11 did the same thing.
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:33 PM on June 17, 2021
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:33 PM on June 17, 2021
When I was 10 years old, my older-by-9-months cousin, who I idolized, introduced me to the concept of a home "spa day". Although I think we called it something else back then, it was basically a day where you did beauty/self-care rituals such as face mask, hair conditioner, bubble bath and leg shaving. When you got done your skin was baby smooth and glowing, a whole new pleasurable sensory experience for someone who had up until recently resisted baths and not cared much about grooming. It also felt very girly and very grown-up. I loved it and went about recreating the experience at home.
My dad went ballistic over the shaving.
My parents were divorced, and while he had lived at home my dad was the type to issue decrees such as "no nail polish!" and "no leg shaving!" and "bermuda shorts only!" (I'd have been laughed out of the school for that one.) That plus the fact that some of the other kids had made fun of my hairy legs (I don't even remember if they were boys or girls), I sweltered in jeans on hot days while the popular girls and regular girls alike wore short shorts to school and nobody died or even got pregnant!
So for the first year or so after my dad moved out, he had this illusion he'd be able to maintain control. I'd get into his car to go with him on weekends and the first thing he would do is check my nails for nail polish and feel my lower legs to make sure I wasn't shaving. It was ridiculous and humiliating. There was exactly ZERO harm in those things, it was just a power play and we both knew it. I resented him for it (as well as other ridiculously strict rules that literally no one else my age had to follow) for... well, I guess ever because I'm kinda pissed writing about it now.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 1:34 PM on June 17, 2021 [28 favorites]
My dad went ballistic over the shaving.
My parents were divorced, and while he had lived at home my dad was the type to issue decrees such as "no nail polish!" and "no leg shaving!" and "bermuda shorts only!" (I'd have been laughed out of the school for that one.) That plus the fact that some of the other kids had made fun of my hairy legs (I don't even remember if they were boys or girls), I sweltered in jeans on hot days while the popular girls and regular girls alike wore short shorts to school and nobody died or even got pregnant!
So for the first year or so after my dad moved out, he had this illusion he'd be able to maintain control. I'd get into his car to go with him on weekends and the first thing he would do is check my nails for nail polish and feel my lower legs to make sure I wasn't shaving. It was ridiculous and humiliating. There was exactly ZERO harm in those things, it was just a power play and we both knew it. I resented him for it (as well as other ridiculously strict rules that literally no one else my age had to follow) for... well, I guess ever because I'm kinda pissed writing about it now.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 1:34 PM on June 17, 2021 [28 favorites]
You asked for some media suggestions. Great books about parenting teenage girls:
Reviving Ophelia, a 1990s classic.
American Girls by Nancy Jo Sales
Untangled by Lisa Damour
My main other thought is to remember that being "sneaky" and "lying" to your parents is actually a HEALTHY part of being a teenager. A little bit of trouble (sneaking out to hang out with your friends, buying thongs/shaving legs/wearing makeup that your parents forbid, etc., trying marijuana at a party) -- is actually a really healthy sign that the developmental process of separating from your parents and forming your own adult social self is underway. Kids who follow all the rules, never lie to their parents, etc. are actually perhaps not undergoing the normal process of teenage maturation.
It's still ok to "punish" or have consequences, but in private you and your husband can high-five yourself that she has the confidence, sense of autonomy, sense of self-direction, bravery, curiosity about the world and adult life, etc. that a preteen should.
posted by amaire at 1:38 PM on June 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
Reviving Ophelia, a 1990s classic.
American Girls by Nancy Jo Sales
Untangled by Lisa Damour
My main other thought is to remember that being "sneaky" and "lying" to your parents is actually a HEALTHY part of being a teenager. A little bit of trouble (sneaking out to hang out with your friends, buying thongs/shaving legs/wearing makeup that your parents forbid, etc., trying marijuana at a party) -- is actually a really healthy sign that the developmental process of separating from your parents and forming your own adult social self is underway. Kids who follow all the rules, never lie to their parents, etc. are actually perhaps not undergoing the normal process of teenage maturation.
It's still ok to "punish" or have consequences, but in private you and your husband can high-five yourself that she has the confidence, sense of autonomy, sense of self-direction, bravery, curiosity about the world and adult life, etc. that a preteen should.
posted by amaire at 1:38 PM on June 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
My lengthier answer was just eaten by the form monster. Humph.
In short: this is not a battle worth fighting. You need to keep your relationship with your daughter solid, so she will come to you about the things that could have a real impact on her life and future, like the decision to have sex or drink.
Tell her why you choose not to shave your legs, by all means, but let her make her own decision. If you push this issue she will likely still shave her legs, but go further underground with it, doing it in the school locker room for example. And then where does that lead, are you going to do daily leg inspections??
You need to come to terms with the fact that you are going to have less and less control as she grows up, and that is as it should be.
Also, her reasons for wanting to shave may have nothing to do with the male gaze or conformity. Do you remember what it was like to be a young person and be excited to try all the things that grown-ups do?
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 1:40 PM on June 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
In short: this is not a battle worth fighting. You need to keep your relationship with your daughter solid, so she will come to you about the things that could have a real impact on her life and future, like the decision to have sex or drink.
Tell her why you choose not to shave your legs, by all means, but let her make her own decision. If you push this issue she will likely still shave her legs, but go further underground with it, doing it in the school locker room for example. And then where does that lead, are you going to do daily leg inspections??
You need to come to terms with the fact that you are going to have less and less control as she grows up, and that is as it should be.
Also, her reasons for wanting to shave may have nothing to do with the male gaze or conformity. Do you remember what it was like to be a young person and be excited to try all the things that grown-ups do?
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 1:40 PM on June 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
This really confused me. Because on one hand, I really adored girls with hairy legs when I was young (I'm bi), and on the other, I love having smooth legs for myself. I wax them, and from the first minutes my kids began shaving, I tried to convince them to wax instead, with no success.
I am a strict parent. I had tons of rules for my kids. But I can't think of how personal appearances should be among them. Advice is good. Plucking ones eyebrows really thin is a bad idea because one might never grow back the brows. Hair coloring is rarely smart but I get why one wants to try it, so I haven't been very strict on that. Tons of tattoos outside workday clothes covering is a bad idea and in this country, there is a law that demands parental consent for tattoos, so I enforced that. These things you can explain, even if you can't 100% enforce them. But shaving legs? Nah. Let it go.
posted by mumimor at 1:48 PM on June 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am a strict parent. I had tons of rules for my kids. But I can't think of how personal appearances should be among them. Advice is good. Plucking ones eyebrows really thin is a bad idea because one might never grow back the brows. Hair coloring is rarely smart but I get why one wants to try it, so I haven't been very strict on that. Tons of tattoos outside workday clothes covering is a bad idea and in this country, there is a law that demands parental consent for tattoos, so I enforced that. These things you can explain, even if you can't 100% enforce them. But shaving legs? Nah. Let it go.
posted by mumimor at 1:48 PM on June 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Incidentally, I don't shave my legs any more and haven't for years. Turns out shaving was like doing the dishes... fun when it was novel and voluntary and seemed like a grown-up activity, not so fun when it became a chore you had to do all the time... lol.
Your daughter may or may not decide the same later on, whether she enjoys shaving now or not.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 1:51 PM on June 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Your daughter may or may not decide the same later on, whether she enjoys shaving now or not.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 1:51 PM on June 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
The lying sucks. Lying in our house has consequences.
After the consequences, though, we do have a talk about why the lying seemed worth it, and that may be illuminating to you when setting future limits on what she likes doing with her body. I think if it was my own 10 year old, my main concern would be fine motor coordination with a 10 year old and sharp razors on one hand, and on the other, if she was being bullied over her appearance at school. If she feels strongly about shaving, I'd consider offering an electric razor as a safer alternative. You're also welcome, of course, to talk about your own feelings about leg shaving, and why you do whatever you do. (I say all that as someone who was in the exact opposite situation to your daughter; the person who mocked my hairy legs was *my mom*, and my first experience shaving my legs was an traumatic, bloody mess. I have always avoided it as much as possible.)
As for the timing: with my similar-aged kid, they just did an end-of-school-year unit on puberty. I know that since that unit, my kid has been noting some (very) early development and asking a lot of questions about adult bodies and the ways that adults take care of them. I could easily imagine a different type of kid exploring that learning on their own.
posted by tchemgrrl at 2:03 PM on June 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
After the consequences, though, we do have a talk about why the lying seemed worth it, and that may be illuminating to you when setting future limits on what she likes doing with her body. I think if it was my own 10 year old, my main concern would be fine motor coordination with a 10 year old and sharp razors on one hand, and on the other, if she was being bullied over her appearance at school. If she feels strongly about shaving, I'd consider offering an electric razor as a safer alternative. You're also welcome, of course, to talk about your own feelings about leg shaving, and why you do whatever you do. (I say all that as someone who was in the exact opposite situation to your daughter; the person who mocked my hairy legs was *my mom*, and my first experience shaving my legs was an traumatic, bloody mess. I have always avoided it as much as possible.)
As for the timing: with my similar-aged kid, they just did an end-of-school-year unit on puberty. I know that since that unit, my kid has been noting some (very) early development and asking a lot of questions about adult bodies and the ways that adults take care of them. I could easily imagine a different type of kid exploring that learning on their own.
posted by tchemgrrl at 2:03 PM on June 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
I also shaved my legs for the first time in secret - because the peer pressure was enormous. No one made fun of me for having hairy legs, as far as I can recall, but I was very aware of who was supposed to have hairy legs (boys) and who wasn't (girls). At that age I was not nearly as well-equipped to resist that messaging as I am now.
But the thing is, my mom forbidding me from shaving my legs wouldn't have helped me resist that messaging any more. It wouldn't have made me feel more comfortable in my natural body. It would have just made me feel miserable and self-conscious and ashamed.
What Serene Empress Dork just wrote resonated with me - "I sweltered in jeans on hot days while the popular girls and regular girls alike wore short shorts to school"
Because yeah, that is the road I was headed down. You can't "disallow" a girl from receiving these messages and you can't "disallow" her from the social consequences of not following them. If she's already trying to shave her legs, she's already feeling it.
By all means talk to her about how she should not feel obligated to shave. But be understanding, and don't make her feel ashamed of her desire to fit in, right now. And don't forbid her from fitting in either.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:07 PM on June 17, 2021 [27 favorites]
But the thing is, my mom forbidding me from shaving my legs wouldn't have helped me resist that messaging any more. It wouldn't have made me feel more comfortable in my natural body. It would have just made me feel miserable and self-conscious and ashamed.
What Serene Empress Dork just wrote resonated with me - "I sweltered in jeans on hot days while the popular girls and regular girls alike wore short shorts to school"
Because yeah, that is the road I was headed down. You can't "disallow" a girl from receiving these messages and you can't "disallow" her from the social consequences of not following them. If she's already trying to shave her legs, she's already feeling it.
By all means talk to her about how she should not feel obligated to shave. But be understanding, and don't make her feel ashamed of her desire to fit in, right now. And don't forbid her from fitting in either.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:07 PM on June 17, 2021 [27 favorites]
This stuff is hard to navigate and I do relate to your question. I think a big factor in leg shaving is how dark her skin and body hair are. A kid with pale skin and dark hair is going to realllly notice their leg hair in a way that a kid with blonder hair may not. That may be a factor here. Kids will notice dark leg hair on other kids and remark on it, maybe not malicously, but it's not something they will tactfully ignore or give a fist bump and say, "Yes feminism," you know? They're more likely to say, "Hey, your legs are hairy." And to a 10-year old, even an innocent observation like that could be mortifying. She may very well grow into a teenager or adult who shares your thoughts about body hair, but I think it's more likely she'll get there if she's allowed to come to that conclusion herself.
You could tell her you're sorry she didn't come to you for help with this and that you will help her the next time she wants to try shaving. (I think it's good to help show her how the first few times she shaves body hair, because it can be painful if done incorrectly. I know some kids use electric trimmers instead of razors, so that could be an option too? I personally just don't know the electric trimmer world, but I know it exists).
If she has leg hair, it's probably also time to talk about bras, armpit hair, pubic hair, wearing deodarant, panty liners, and periods. This could be a good starting point for making sure she knows she can come to you for help.
posted by areaperson at 2:07 PM on June 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
You could tell her you're sorry she didn't come to you for help with this and that you will help her the next time she wants to try shaving. (I think it's good to help show her how the first few times she shaves body hair, because it can be painful if done incorrectly. I know some kids use electric trimmers instead of razors, so that could be an option too? I personally just don't know the electric trimmer world, but I know it exists).
If she has leg hair, it's probably also time to talk about bras, armpit hair, pubic hair, wearing deodarant, panty liners, and periods. This could be a good starting point for making sure she knows she can come to you for help.
posted by areaperson at 2:07 PM on June 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
I love the realness of your question and your update.
I've screwed up like this in my parenting too. I figure well, if I can't be a model of consistency at least I can model how to handle screwing up.
In your shoes I would have a talk with your daughter and I would say:
1. I saw that you shaved your legs after I told you not to, and your dad says you lied about the shaving cream.
2. I want to have a family where we can talk and be real together and not lie. (We have introduced the concept of the 'trust bank' where we talk about things that add to the trust bank -- telling the truth, keeping one's words and commitments etc. -- and things that take away -- lying, sneaking, etc.) I want to have a consequence for lying but I'm not sure what the consequence should be other than the feelings I have now about your truthfulness. What do you think?
(Kids often come up with really good consequences if you help them.)
3. In thinking about this whole thing, I realized that my feelings about you shaving your legs got in the way of other things. I want to talk to you about how shaving your legs makes me feel/think, but I've also decided to let you shave your legs. That's a separate thing from lying. (You could have this conversation later.)
posted by warriorqueen at 3:06 PM on June 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
I've screwed up like this in my parenting too. I figure well, if I can't be a model of consistency at least I can model how to handle screwing up.
In your shoes I would have a talk with your daughter and I would say:
1. I saw that you shaved your legs after I told you not to, and your dad says you lied about the shaving cream.
2. I want to have a family where we can talk and be real together and not lie. (We have introduced the concept of the 'trust bank' where we talk about things that add to the trust bank -- telling the truth, keeping one's words and commitments etc. -- and things that take away -- lying, sneaking, etc.) I want to have a consequence for lying but I'm not sure what the consequence should be other than the feelings I have now about your truthfulness. What do you think?
(Kids often come up with really good consequences if you help them.)
3. In thinking about this whole thing, I realized that my feelings about you shaving your legs got in the way of other things. I want to talk to you about how shaving your legs makes me feel/think, but I've also decided to let you shave your legs. That's a separate thing from lying. (You could have this conversation later.)
posted by warriorqueen at 3:06 PM on June 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
Chiming in with the chorus to say please don’t punish your daughter for shaving her legs. All that’s going to do is set her up for further poor self image and body autonomy. I remeber as a tween with pale skin and dark hair and all my friends shaving, my mom absolutely wouldn’t let me shave my legs. I too ended up “sneakily” shaving my legs right before a beach day when I was 12, and my mom caught me mid shave! It was already happening so she couldn’t stop me from finishing shaving (and also kicking my skin). I get that you don’t want her do opt into doing it so that other people will accept her, and there are certainly more choices than the hairless below the eyebrows option that seemed to be pushed on my generation, but let her control her own body and start making her own choices. Talk to her about all the reasons she wants to shave. Explain your stance on it, maybe even throw in a quick history of ladies shaving (it’s has interesting origins!) and then take her to a drugstore for shaving cream and good razors. Not making a big deal about this will set you up well in the future for continuing to build trust for bigger things. As for books maybe the care and keeping of you? I’m sure there are lots of books that have come out since then, but it’s a nice primer for tween girls.
posted by Champagne Supernova at 3:19 PM on June 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Champagne Supernova at 3:19 PM on June 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
The sneaky puberty-related tween girl things. Please help me handle them. ... To begin, this isn't a terrible thing. My 10 year-old shaved her legs for the first time last night, although I told her she wasn't allowed to do that yet.
Okay, this is a "sneaky" thing because... you had a rule over what she is and is not allowed to do in the shower and with her own body. And it's "sneaky" because, at 10, she showers without supervision (as she ought). Tiny kids have bathtime supervision and rules, and then bigger kids have less supervision and fewer rules. Then as one gets into adulthood, shower rules should be limited to things that affect the household, like duration and not using other people's razors (omg hepatitis).
And you could, if you so chose, just... allow her to shave if she wanted and she wouldn't be "sneaking". You say it's puberty related, she might "need" to shave (and yeah, you can and should talk about feminist stuff and male gaze stuff and choice stuff.)
You are eventually going to have to give up control over bath time! This is a good thing! I promise you, before you know it, she is going to be 25 and living on her own and making her own decisions about body hair as is our societal custom.
This does not have to be a huge deal. You can choose to give your child privacy and autonomy over small, ultimately harmless things. I think you realize that because you characterize mascara and bra-stuffing as "not such a big yikes". You can try to think of this as when you realized she wasn't going to drown in the bathtub and you could let her wash on her own.
It's hard to deal with a child who has done something you specifically forbade, and I obviously don't know all the specifics of the conversation where you said she couldn't shave yet. It also seems really fatuous to be like "well if you don't forbid your child from doing things they won't disobey you!" but I would perhaps suggest that you keep as many lines of communication open as possible, have more of a dialogue where she expresses her wants about her own body, and consider carefully what you are forbidding and why. It's not a tongue piercing. It's not even a haircut. In my opinion it's not even like wearing "adult" clothing or watching an R-rated movie in terms of life consequences.
posted by Hypatia at 3:22 PM on June 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
Okay, this is a "sneaky" thing because... you had a rule over what she is and is not allowed to do in the shower and with her own body. And it's "sneaky" because, at 10, she showers without supervision (as she ought). Tiny kids have bathtime supervision and rules, and then bigger kids have less supervision and fewer rules. Then as one gets into adulthood, shower rules should be limited to things that affect the household, like duration and not using other people's razors (omg hepatitis).
And you could, if you so chose, just... allow her to shave if she wanted and she wouldn't be "sneaking". You say it's puberty related, she might "need" to shave (and yeah, you can and should talk about feminist stuff and male gaze stuff and choice stuff.)
You are eventually going to have to give up control over bath time! This is a good thing! I promise you, before you know it, she is going to be 25 and living on her own and making her own decisions about body hair as is our societal custom.
This does not have to be a huge deal. You can choose to give your child privacy and autonomy over small, ultimately harmless things. I think you realize that because you characterize mascara and bra-stuffing as "not such a big yikes". You can try to think of this as when you realized she wasn't going to drown in the bathtub and you could let her wash on her own.
It's hard to deal with a child who has done something you specifically forbade, and I obviously don't know all the specifics of the conversation where you said she couldn't shave yet. It also seems really fatuous to be like "well if you don't forbid your child from doing things they won't disobey you!" but I would perhaps suggest that you keep as many lines of communication open as possible, have more of a dialogue where she expresses her wants about her own body, and consider carefully what you are forbidding and why. It's not a tongue piercing. It's not even a haircut. In my opinion it's not even like wearing "adult" clothing or watching an R-rated movie in terms of life consequences.
posted by Hypatia at 3:22 PM on June 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
I agree with others saying that a rule that you can't shave your legs is a perplexing rule. (Were you worried she'd cut herself?) She probably wanted to shave her legs because you had this rule.
As the mom of an independent-minded 18-year-old, my advice is to make as few rules as possible, and only about truly important things. (And very few rules that violate her
bodily autonomy.) Let her wear what she wants unless she'll freeze or it's grandma's funeral. Let her do what she wants with her grooming. Let her make her decisions about what she does with her body, as much as possible.
When should a person have sex? When they feel good and safe and happy and excited about it, and when they trust the people they're having it with, both in the moment and with any consequences that might arise. None of those determinations are facilitated by parental rules about with whom and when you can have sex.
posted by shadygrove at 3:23 PM on June 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
As the mom of an independent-minded 18-year-old, my advice is to make as few rules as possible, and only about truly important things. (And very few rules that violate her
bodily autonomy.) Let her wear what she wants unless she'll freeze or it's grandma's funeral. Let her do what she wants with her grooming. Let her make her decisions about what she does with her body, as much as possible.
When should a person have sex? When they feel good and safe and happy and excited about it, and when they trust the people they're having it with, both in the moment and with any consequences that might arise. None of those determinations are facilitated by parental rules about with whom and when you can have sex.
posted by shadygrove at 3:23 PM on June 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
Leg shaving, makeup, pierced ears, hair dye -- don't put these in the same box as Having Sex. There is no slippery slope from lipstick to teen pregnancy.
It's her body. Let her dress, paint and adorn it as she wishes, within reason (like if school has rules about hair color.) I got my ears pierced at 10. It did not make me mature too fast. I still went home and played with Barbies.
The sex conversation is different from the grooming conversation.
posted by emjaybee at 3:26 PM on June 17, 2021 [19 favorites]
It's her body. Let her dress, paint and adorn it as she wishes, within reason (like if school has rules about hair color.) I got my ears pierced at 10. It did not make me mature too fast. I still went home and played with Barbies.
The sex conversation is different from the grooming conversation.
posted by emjaybee at 3:26 PM on June 17, 2021 [19 favorites]
And I wouldn't punish her for lying about this. At all. On the contrary, I'd apologize for making an unreasonable rule, explain why I was worried, and show her how to safely wield a razor. You owning up to a parenting mistake will foster much more honesty from her than punishing her for lying about failing to obey an arbitrary parental edict.
posted by shadygrove at 3:26 PM on June 17, 2021 [37 favorites]
posted by shadygrove at 3:26 PM on June 17, 2021 [37 favorites]
It's kind of a bummer that you have this expectation that tween girls automatically engage in puberty-related sneakiness. Maybe consider if that expectation is coloring your interactions with your daughter.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:05 PM on June 17, 2021 [35 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 4:05 PM on June 17, 2021 [35 favorites]
This made me laugh out loud, because it's 100 percent the problem here. I don't know why I was against leg shaving. I thought - well once you start, you can't stop. Which is just...silly.
You sound like a really good mom btw.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:08 PM on June 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
You sound like a really good mom btw.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:08 PM on June 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
I think you are doing a great job acknowledging the internalized misogyny we all have around this time period. I think it would be great to be mostly open about your own journey with your daughter. I remember being that age and being keenly aware that adults had mixed fear and sadness that I was "growing up too fast", but of course I could not control my puberty, and it would have helped a lot to hear adults actually explain their feelings, and what to actually DO if any adult inappropriately sexualizes you (which might include catcalls, but might also include any other commentary about whether they should or shouldn't be wearing tank tops, or makeup, or whatever.) It's a really confusing age when some adults either praise you or shame you for acting grown.
PS. I got my period the week before my 11th birthday so if you haven't gotten yourself ready for that reality, it may be coming soon!
posted by nakedmolerats at 4:12 PM on June 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
PS. I got my period the week before my 11th birthday so if you haven't gotten yourself ready for that reality, it may be coming soon!
posted by nakedmolerats at 4:12 PM on June 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
gender-coding a kid's healthy & experimental defiance of oppressive rules as "sneaky" is a more dangerous road to go down than normalizing leg-shaving would be. and I grant that they're both bad. you have some options here, and they do not require you to pretend that leg-shaving is not a sexist expectation placed on girls by society. we all know that it is. so:
- you must tell her nobody has to shave their legs.
You may tell that you personally think she shouldn't do it, because it's a small thing but what it symbolizes is submission to oppressive different standards for girls and women.
You cannot say this if you shave your own legs, unless you want her to use your own argument against you (justifiably and successfully).
You may not lecture her on the harmfulness of girlish deference to gendered grooming standards, while punishing her for refusing to defer to you on gendered grooming standards.
You must not forbid her to mess around with her own body in completely safe and reversible ways.
You cannot justify intrusive surveillance and suspicion of tween girls by reference to your own bad memories. the cultural expectation that puberty makes girls into incomprehensible monsters is, again, more harmful than any one sexist grooming standard. choosing to experiment with ideas and practices you didn't teach her is a step towards autonomy. if she knows how to say No to you, she's well on her way to learning how to say No to her peers. "I hear you, but I don't agree with you" is a thing every girl should feel comfortable saying. express to her your feminist opinions but remove the prohibition, so that she can stop lying and start asserting herself openly.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:17 PM on June 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
- you must tell her nobody has to shave their legs.
You may tell that you personally think she shouldn't do it, because it's a small thing but what it symbolizes is submission to oppressive different standards for girls and women.
You cannot say this if you shave your own legs, unless you want her to use your own argument against you (justifiably and successfully).
You may not lecture her on the harmfulness of girlish deference to gendered grooming standards, while punishing her for refusing to defer to you on gendered grooming standards.
You must not forbid her to mess around with her own body in completely safe and reversible ways.
You cannot justify intrusive surveillance and suspicion of tween girls by reference to your own bad memories. the cultural expectation that puberty makes girls into incomprehensible monsters is, again, more harmful than any one sexist grooming standard. choosing to experiment with ideas and practices you didn't teach her is a step towards autonomy. if she knows how to say No to you, she's well on her way to learning how to say No to her peers. "I hear you, but I don't agree with you" is a thing every girl should feel comfortable saying. express to her your feminist opinions but remove the prohibition, so that she can stop lying and start asserting herself openly.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:17 PM on June 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
I also tend to think that your daughter is going to be a better place to stand up for herself if she has been able to do the conformist thing and then rejected it than if the conformist thing is a longed-for and forbidden possibility.
Right now, if her peers are normalizing shaving (whether or not she is worried about bullying) she is in conflict with you because she wants to shave and in conflict with her peers because she can't. That seems like two basically unnecessary conflicts that aren't actually about values and don't actually let her grow as a person. She doesn't have any headspace to stand up to her peers (assuming she decides that shaving is a patriarchal bummer) because she's already got too much conflict going on.
If you let your daughter do what she wants while taking your own stance, she's going to remember and respect your opinion far more than if she's constantly in conflict and struggling to deal with fitting in at school, where your opinions will just get lost in a mess of "my mother doesn't understand my life".
posted by Frowner at 4:51 PM on June 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
Right now, if her peers are normalizing shaving (whether or not she is worried about bullying) she is in conflict with you because she wants to shave and in conflict with her peers because she can't. That seems like two basically unnecessary conflicts that aren't actually about values and don't actually let her grow as a person. She doesn't have any headspace to stand up to her peers (assuming she decides that shaving is a patriarchal bummer) because she's already got too much conflict going on.
If you let your daughter do what she wants while taking your own stance, she's going to remember and respect your opinion far more than if she's constantly in conflict and struggling to deal with fitting in at school, where your opinions will just get lost in a mess of "my mother doesn't understand my life".
posted by Frowner at 4:51 PM on June 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: For those who are really confused - I didn't tell her she couldn't shave her legs EVER. I said - not yet. You're a little too young.
Anyhow, thanks so much for these fantastic answers. I remember early on when I joined Metafilter, I asked a question about when one should get pregnant, not realizing I was pregnant at the time! With this beloved one. You guys have given me a LOT of great parenting advice and I am eternally grateful.
posted by kitcat at 5:56 PM on June 17, 2021 [20 favorites]
Anyhow, thanks so much for these fantastic answers. I remember early on when I joined Metafilter, I asked a question about when one should get pregnant, not realizing I was pregnant at the time! With this beloved one. You guys have given me a LOT of great parenting advice and I am eternally grateful.
posted by kitcat at 5:56 PM on June 17, 2021 [20 favorites]
One more point: your kid is going to pick up on your discomfort about puberty. Restricting or making a big fuss about puberty-adjacent behaviors runs the risk of making her feel ashamed about her body or sexuality. That doesn't mean you can't have rules; just have good reasons for them. It's great that you are self-aware about your discomfort. I'm sure you will sort it out over time.
posted by Comet Bug at 8:40 PM on June 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Comet Bug at 8:40 PM on June 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
I was bullied hard for having hairy legs and "maturing" faster than other girls in 5th and 6th grade which carried over through all of middle school and the start of high school. I liked having short hair too, so that didn't help my cause either. Even as a mid-30s woman, I still carry the trauma of being called a boy back then. I wish my mom had been more effective at teaching me girly things. I couldn't tell her I wanted to shave my legs, I had to talk to my aunt about it. Then I did tell my mom, and her explanation for not introducing shaving to me was that you have to do it the rest of your life, why start so soon. I am grateful she had me start getting my eyebrows waxed when I was 13 or 14, because now I don't need to go as often, so there is that.
Don't discourage your daughter from trying to fit in, and please don't punish her for shaving. She shouldn't have had to lie about it. Being a preteen is hard. Figure out why she wanted to shave in the first place. Make puberty seem like a good thing, not something to fret over.
posted by DEiBnL13 at 9:24 PM on June 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
Don't discourage your daughter from trying to fit in, and please don't punish her for shaving. She shouldn't have had to lie about it. Being a preteen is hard. Figure out why she wanted to shave in the first place. Make puberty seem like a good thing, not something to fret over.
posted by DEiBnL13 at 9:24 PM on June 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
When I was a child I was forbidden to do a LOT of normal, safe things that my peers did and this made life very much harder than it had to be.
This hit deep.
When I was a kid, I spent a lot of time with my legs bared to the world. Due to my sports, it was unavoidable. When I started growing dark leg hair it was very visible and I started getting snarky comments from the older girls who I idolized. My mom, who has like... three hairs on her legs, didn't understand and didn't want to understand why I'd want to shave. She forbade me to shave, so I did it in secret.
I didn't know what the hell I was doing, so I sliced myself to ribbons. I literally took a strip of skin off my shin like I was peeling a carrot. It was awful and I wish I had a mom who would've been supportive and shown me how to do it properly. Instead, my mom got angry at me for disobeying her.
I didn't tell her that I was being made fun of. I was already embarrassed beyond belief that anyone noticed my hairy legs, I wasn't about to relive that by telling my mom, especially not knowing how she'd react to that information. I do know that my mom often reacted with something like, "Who cares what other kids think?" in other instances where I was fretting about fitting in. It always made me feel very unheard, and that my mom did not care about the pain or embarrassment that I was feeling.
This experience (among others) led to me not telling her when I got my period. I couldn't hide my stained underwear or clothes for long, and when my mom found out she was extremely hurt that I never came to her. But why would I have? The only other times I needed support and understanding about a part of my body that was changing (she was weird about buying me proper bras too), she gave me the opposite.
Being a teenage girl can really be an awful, confusing, and lonely time. A girl needs her mom.
posted by keep it under cover at 12:57 AM on June 18, 2021 [26 favorites]
This hit deep.
When I was a kid, I spent a lot of time with my legs bared to the world. Due to my sports, it was unavoidable. When I started growing dark leg hair it was very visible and I started getting snarky comments from the older girls who I idolized. My mom, who has like... three hairs on her legs, didn't understand and didn't want to understand why I'd want to shave. She forbade me to shave, so I did it in secret.
I didn't know what the hell I was doing, so I sliced myself to ribbons. I literally took a strip of skin off my shin like I was peeling a carrot. It was awful and I wish I had a mom who would've been supportive and shown me how to do it properly. Instead, my mom got angry at me for disobeying her.
I didn't tell her that I was being made fun of. I was already embarrassed beyond belief that anyone noticed my hairy legs, I wasn't about to relive that by telling my mom, especially not knowing how she'd react to that information. I do know that my mom often reacted with something like, "Who cares what other kids think?" in other instances where I was fretting about fitting in. It always made me feel very unheard, and that my mom did not care about the pain or embarrassment that I was feeling.
This experience (among others) led to me not telling her when I got my period. I couldn't hide my stained underwear or clothes for long, and when my mom found out she was extremely hurt that I never came to her. But why would I have? The only other times I needed support and understanding about a part of my body that was changing (she was weird about buying me proper bras too), she gave me the opposite.
Being a teenage girl can really be an awful, confusing, and lonely time. A girl needs her mom.
posted by keep it under cover at 12:57 AM on June 18, 2021 [26 favorites]
You may tell that you personally think she shouldn't do it, because it's a small thing but what it symbolizes is submission to oppressive different standards for girls and women.
Like, honestly, I wouldn't even do this. I grew up in a very conservative small town and I already felt like a weirdo because of my family, but then ON TOP of that I had to feel like I was a weirdo in my family because I was a teen girl who occasionally wanted to use body spray and read Seventeen.
Don't do that to your kid. Input quality stuff, but let her try out new things without attaching all of your baggage to them. She has the entire rest of her life to reject the patriarchy.
(Beyond the developmental reasons a ten year old might want to fit in, also consider that adults usually get some control over who they spend their time around. Kids, on the other hand, typically go to middle school with 300-700 of their closest peers.)
posted by geegollygosh at 4:32 AM on June 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
Like, honestly, I wouldn't even do this. I grew up in a very conservative small town and I already felt like a weirdo because of my family, but then ON TOP of that I had to feel like I was a weirdo in my family because I was a teen girl who occasionally wanted to use body spray and read Seventeen.
Don't do that to your kid. Input quality stuff, but let her try out new things without attaching all of your baggage to them. She has the entire rest of her life to reject the patriarchy.
(Beyond the developmental reasons a ten year old might want to fit in, also consider that adults usually get some control over who they spend their time around. Kids, on the other hand, typically go to middle school with 300-700 of their closest peers.)
posted by geegollygosh at 4:32 AM on June 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
You may tell that you personally think she shouldn't do it, because it's a small thing but what it symbolizes is submission to oppressive different standards for girls and women.
Yes, you obviously want her not to feel ashamed of her body hair, but it's also important for her not to feel ashamed if she does want to shave it. You don't want her to feel like she's disappointing her mom, or other girls, because she wants to remove a highly socially stigmatized aspect of her appearance.
Because that's also damaging. It's a really tricky line to walk. What you can do instead is model different ways to be and give her options. If you shave your legs, stop. You can tell her you don't shave because there's nothing wrong with your body hair and it's not fair that women are expected to shave and men aren't. Crossing the line into saying she shouldn't shave and if she does she's capitulating to the patriarchy is a great way to kick off some internalized shame though, even if you think it's true.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:06 AM on June 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
Yes, you obviously want her not to feel ashamed of her body hair, but it's also important for her not to feel ashamed if she does want to shave it. You don't want her to feel like she's disappointing her mom, or other girls, because she wants to remove a highly socially stigmatized aspect of her appearance.
Because that's also damaging. It's a really tricky line to walk. What you can do instead is model different ways to be and give her options. If you shave your legs, stop. You can tell her you don't shave because there's nothing wrong with your body hair and it's not fair that women are expected to shave and men aren't. Crossing the line into saying she shouldn't shave and if she does she's capitulating to the patriarchy is a great way to kick off some internalized shame though, even if you think it's true.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:06 AM on June 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
Thanks for asking this question. I've been reading with rapt attention. As the mom of a daughter who is also ten, it is complicated AS ALL HELL to raise a daughter through the rocky waters of puberty. It's rough to watch society's varied and crippling standards for girls and women placed on their previously carefree shoulders. Puberty is a thing that happens - everything else is a construct. Who constructed it? Why?
For my daughter, it has been makeup. Her cousins and best friend are "really into makeup" and their moms are seemingly... totally cool with this and seem confused that I have any opinions or consternation about it at all. She got a load of makeup at Christmas from various folks which I gave my blessing to. And some of the results have been hilarious. And luckily, a lot of this was going on when we were in lockdown, nothing but the gentle influence of YouTube to contend with. Finally, it came down to me having a frank discussion with my daughter about why I have a mixed relationship to makeup. And also, that makeup is "not for kids" but that as her other friends at school, especially going into middle school and high school, started wearing more makeup, I'd be more open to it. But that at age 10, she shouldn't wear makeup to school. I also talked about how we look at what our friends are doing and we feel bad about ourselves if we don't match. I didn't want her to start setting a standard at school that her friends felt like they had to keep up with. That actually seemed to resonate with her.
I think that's my only piece of advice, unpacking in an age appropriate way what you like and don't like about leg shaving. And you can even share your first experiences with shaving. For me, like a lot of kids, it started when someone in my peer group shamed me. Then I started sneakily looking around at girls' legs at school and was shocked to see how smooth everyone was. I had never noticed. So I started shaving and cutting up my legs with my brother's razor. My mom thankfully noticed and gave me a tutorial but she didn't give me any context for it. For me, it was a thing that I did forever until about four years ago when I started letting my pits go and only occasionally shaving my legs. So, I love the note that shaving actually doesn't have to be forever. It can be a daily, weekly, yearly choice. And you'll see people having a range of feelings about it. And encourage her to never shame her friends about whether they are or are not following beauty trends.
posted by amanda at 6:52 AM on June 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
For my daughter, it has been makeup. Her cousins and best friend are "really into makeup" and their moms are seemingly... totally cool with this and seem confused that I have any opinions or consternation about it at all. She got a load of makeup at Christmas from various folks which I gave my blessing to. And some of the results have been hilarious. And luckily, a lot of this was going on when we were in lockdown, nothing but the gentle influence of YouTube to contend with. Finally, it came down to me having a frank discussion with my daughter about why I have a mixed relationship to makeup. And also, that makeup is "not for kids" but that as her other friends at school, especially going into middle school and high school, started wearing more makeup, I'd be more open to it. But that at age 10, she shouldn't wear makeup to school. I also talked about how we look at what our friends are doing and we feel bad about ourselves if we don't match. I didn't want her to start setting a standard at school that her friends felt like they had to keep up with. That actually seemed to resonate with her.
I think that's my only piece of advice, unpacking in an age appropriate way what you like and don't like about leg shaving. And you can even share your first experiences with shaving. For me, like a lot of kids, it started when someone in my peer group shamed me. Then I started sneakily looking around at girls' legs at school and was shocked to see how smooth everyone was. I had never noticed. So I started shaving and cutting up my legs with my brother's razor. My mom thankfully noticed and gave me a tutorial but she didn't give me any context for it. For me, it was a thing that I did forever until about four years ago when I started letting my pits go and only occasionally shaving my legs. So, I love the note that shaving actually doesn't have to be forever. It can be a daily, weekly, yearly choice. And you'll see people having a range of feelings about it. And encourage her to never shame her friends about whether they are or are not following beauty trends.
posted by amanda at 6:52 AM on June 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
Taking away bodily autonomy in any way seems like a really counterproductive way to try to send a message about bodily autonomy. Let her shave her legs. They're her legs.
posted by augustimagination at 11:57 AM on June 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by augustimagination at 11:57 AM on June 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
Also, with some suggestions of Nair above - be extremely careful. Using Nair correctly as directed has given me chemical burns before.
posted by augustimagination at 11:59 AM on June 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by augustimagination at 11:59 AM on June 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
The shaving issue has been thoroughly covered above... I am just posting to give you a question to ask yourself every time you start to hand down a rule/start a disagreement with the preteen:
"Is this the hill I want to die on?"
I feel like we (mostly I) wasted soooooo much time and energy with weird rules and arguments that seemed important at the time but really weren't. And honestly no matter what we gave into, early teen DTMFA always pushed more if we were trying to assert authority. So, my advice is to treat this period as one of separation, where she's going to change sooo much and really push her autonomy- and that's exactly what she's supposed to be doing developmentally. Doesn't always make it easy, but the advice to really pick your battles helped us through that phase (ours is almost 15 now). Good luck! =)
posted by DTMFA at 8:38 PM on June 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
"Is this the hill I want to die on?"
I feel like we (mostly I) wasted soooooo much time and energy with weird rules and arguments that seemed important at the time but really weren't. And honestly no matter what we gave into, early teen DTMFA always pushed more if we were trying to assert authority. So, my advice is to treat this period as one of separation, where she's going to change sooo much and really push her autonomy- and that's exactly what she's supposed to be doing developmentally. Doesn't always make it easy, but the advice to really pick your battles helped us through that phase (ours is almost 15 now). Good luck! =)
posted by DTMFA at 8:38 PM on June 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
My Mom and sisters didn't talk to me about shaving my legs(or much else), so I sliced myself doing it the 1st time. Talk to her about doing it safely, and maybe about why she wants to, and your own thoughts about leg-shaving (some people feel it's done to keep women looking young and adolescent, it's time-consuming, etc.)
Way more stuff like this is coming and it will help to start making time to talk to her. Go places together and ask if she has questions about how other kids at school treat her, about boys, sex, drugs, alcohol, tobacco, contraception, periods, and so much more. When it comes to sex, you have to have the talk many more times than once, because lots of kids will get something misunderstood in a way that may seem comical to an adult but is serious to kids. You have to be open to her asking, and you have to initiate conversations. Get books, including Our Bodies Ourselves and read them and share them with her.
I think you have good self-awareness and you're open to communicating; that will help so much.
posted by theora55 at 11:09 AM on June 24, 2021
Way more stuff like this is coming and it will help to start making time to talk to her. Go places together and ask if she has questions about how other kids at school treat her, about boys, sex, drugs, alcohol, tobacco, contraception, periods, and so much more. When it comes to sex, you have to have the talk many more times than once, because lots of kids will get something misunderstood in a way that may seem comical to an adult but is serious to kids. You have to be open to her asking, and you have to initiate conversations. Get books, including Our Bodies Ourselves and read them and share them with her.
I think you have good self-awareness and you're open to communicating; that will help so much.
posted by theora55 at 11:09 AM on June 24, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
Why did she want to shave them? The male gaze, or her own gaze? Even if it's for conformance, I think a person can learn a lot from trying such reversible things. Maybe it makes something she'd been spending too much thought on go away. Or maybe it turns out to be too much work for too little effect. Or maybe she enjoys the outcome for sensory reasons.
If I were you, I'd try to only make rules about really important things.
posted by xo at 12:48 PM on June 17, 2021 [67 favorites]