how much is too much for kids afraid of dogs?

June 7, 2021 7:52 AM

One of the reasons we moved to where we live is to be closer to my mother-in-law, so she could help with the kids, but recently she got a dog. The problem is, my daughter is terrified of dogs? I need some help figuring out how I feel.

My daughter is four, and has been terrified of dogs her entire life. She's never had any actual bad experiences with them - no bites or anything - but she just gets intimidated. If we see someone out walking their dog, she'll start crying and hide behind me until the dog passes. Wants nothing to do with them.

This isn't a huge problem normally. Neither my wife nor I are dog people, so we don't have a dog, and none of our friends we see regularly do, either. My mom has a dog, but generally she comes to visit us. When we do go visit her, her dog is usually in the basement or in the backyard (i.e., places we're not).

The only problem is my mother-in-law. She has a nine-month-old Havanese (kind of Yorkie-sized purse-type dog). She lives alone in a small two bedroom condo, so there's nowhere the dog can go when we come over, and since she doesn't have anyone to watch the dog, she brings it with her when she comes over to visit us.

She came over to visit yesterday, with the dog, and predictably, my daughter freaked out. When they came in, the dog jumped up and started licking her, as dogs do. She climbed up on top of the couch, tears gushing down her face, screaming to the point she was almost hyperventilating. As a parent, it was really tough for me to watch. She eventually calmed down a bit. She would stop crying if the dog was on the other side of the room and someone was holding its leash taut, so that there was no chance it could go anywhere near her. If he moved at all, though, however slightly, she would jump and whimper. I don't think she relaxed the whole afternoon.

On the one hand, my wife is a CBT therapist, and so she thinks it's important to expose our daughter to things that scare her, so she can overcome those fears. I get that; I've done CBT myself and it's worked. On the other hand, though, this is a four year old. I'm not sure if it's worth terrorizing her over, especially to this extent. It's not the same thing as trying to get her to eat a vegetable she doesn't like, you know?

I'd like to hear what other people think. I'm not sure if this is a combination of me being an overly sensitive parent (which I admittedly am, and I try to work on) and not a dog person, or if it was something that went too far. What would you do if your kid was freaking out like that?

Note that I'm not blaming the dog at all. The dog is just being a normal puppy. Not aggressive or anything, actually pretty well trained.

posted by kevinbelt to Human Relations (70 answers total)

My very unprofessional opinion is that there's a whole lot of healthy middle ground between traumatizing the poor kid, and doing nothing/just-accepting-it. Be wary of false dilemmas when navigating the situation!

Sometimes things are pure phases and just go away as mysteriously as they happen (very vague four-year-old-me memories: the monster under my bed moved to some other house, I guess). So nothing wrong with erring on the side of gentle patience; my main concern would be if it lingers on. As she gets older, she'll have peers with dogs, and a can't-ever-visit-because-dog will have potential negative effects on that.

And not to stoke parental stress (yes, that phrasing is "uh oh" territory) there's also the thing to consider that while being terrified around harmless, well-socialized dogs is generally harmless beyond the hard-to-watch level, being terrified around poorly-socialized/poorly-controlled dogs is potentially very harmful. Helping your daughter not be frightened isn't just a nice-for-grandma situation, but a safety measure.
posted by Drastic at 8:05 AM on June 7, 2021 [26 favorites]

I have a lifelong dog phobia that began when I was a child. I often just stayed in the house rather than risk encountering a dog. I'm still nervous around dogs, but it's manageable now. I was also just a scared child in general, and I remember the neighbors being critical of my mom because I was "too old" to sit on her lap when fireworks were going off. I had to deal my whole childhood with strangers deciding I was acting like a "baby." So that's where I'm coming from.

Please respect your child's fears and try to make her feel safe. Even if being exposed to dogs in a safe, controlled way will generally be helpful, letting a dog jump on her and lick her is not going to get her over this fear. Hell, I'd lose it if this happened to me now. It's very important for her to feel that her parents are on her side. She should get to decide what she's comfortable with - not anyone else. This will only get better if she feels in control of the situation.

My daughter had a terrible fear of owls and would freak out even seeing a picture of an owl. She got over it when she saw a small burrowing owl in a zoo. There may be something that will help your child with this. I would start with pictures of dogs if she's up for that. Maybe get a book showing types of dogs. But please don't push her. It will not help.

I'm guessing that if your daughter were deathly allergic to dogs, you would figure out a way for her not to be around your mother-in-law's dog. Please respect her fears as you would a physical illness.
posted by FencingGal at 8:07 AM on June 7, 2021 [35 favorites]

I am also not a dog person (or a pet person at all really), and while I'm not afraid of dogs I know some people who are. It can be sort of debilitating, honestly? Like, I know people who really aren't able to use public parks or hang out with dog-owning friends, and from the outside, it looks like it sucks.

Which is to say: I think it's worth helping her overcome her dog-fear, and interactions with a very small, well trained dog seem like a good first step. Is there a way for you (and/or your wife or MIL) to sort of talk/guide her through those interactions so they're less traumatic? Or could you try like...a stuffed animal dog? Or a picture of a dog?
posted by goodbyewaffles at 8:10 AM on June 7, 2021 [12 favorites]

Your daughter should not be forced to confront her fear when it is not significantly affecting anyone's life and it is not a choice she is making. Adults can choose to participate in exposure therapy, but she is not consenting to that. You can ask her regularly if it's something she wants to work on, but if it's not, respect that. And when she's older, if it seems like this is an ongoing debilitating problem, you can revisit it.
posted by metasarah at 8:12 AM on June 7, 2021 [19 favorites]

I would turn this around slightly. I would hypothesize that your daughter is afraid of dogs because she wasn't exposed to them as a kid. Look, dogs are scary, they have big mouths and sharp teeth and claws. Most dogs kept as pets are too much. Dogs should not be jumping and licking strangers, but we accept that behavior as "dogs being dogs".

So I think your wife is likely right that exposure will help, but I don't think bringing a dog into her space is the right method. Once her fear response is activated, nothing productive is going to happen in her brain. She needs controlled exposure where she can watch dogs without any risk of them approaching her - watching them on TV, watching them at the dog park when they are behind a fence, etc. etc. Exposure to your mom's puppy behind a gate, watching the puppy interact safely with others. Then gradually, she can maybe meet dogs when they are completely calm and chill. Meeting excited dogs still kind of frightens me and I *have* a dog.
posted by muddgirl at 8:13 AM on June 7, 2021 [23 favorites]

Response by poster: On the subject of no previous exposure, I should note that my son (not quite 2) has never really been around dogs and doesn’t seem to have a problem. He kind of likes them.
posted by kevinbelt at 8:18 AM on June 7, 2021

I'm guessing that if your daughter were deathly allergic to dogs, you would figure out a way for her not to be around your mother-in-law's dog. Please respect her fears as you would a physical illness.

I mean, you'd probably take her to the allergist and at some point your daughter would take allergy shots or find a medication regimen that worked for her, so that she doesn't have to spend her entire life unable to be around dogs or dog owners. (As someone with a severe cat allergy, I have done this! Highly recommend. It's nice to be able to go over to my friends' houses.)

Treating her fear as you would a physical illness means, you know, treating it. Dogs exist in the world, and her life isn't going to be easier if you shield her from that forever. (I also don't think you need to do anything about this RIGHT NOW, but it's something to think about going forward.)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 8:21 AM on June 7, 2021 [50 favorites]

A two bedroom condo has at least two rooms that the dog can be kept in when you're there. If you really want to expose the kid to dogs, I think starting with the leashed dog that can't get to her is a great idea, so she can get past the point of "won't cry" and into the realm of "relaxed" and eventually to the point of "curious" when seeing the dog do funny things or interacting with other people.

I would also point out that your daughter might come to associate MIL with scary dogs, and therefore not want a relationship with her grandmother. I was terrified of dogs as a kid, and there were definitely cousins that I didn't want to hang out with because of their aggressive dogs.
posted by little king trashmouth at 8:22 AM on June 7, 2021 [10 favorites]

I'm not familiar with this from a parenting perspective, but I've done a lot of desensitization work in the other direction (dog scared of kids) and for that it's really important to have all the exposures at a distance that doesn't cause fear at all and gradually get closer only as they get used to the idea that nothing happens when they see the trigger - or better yet, positive things happen. The worst thing you can possibly do is let kids run up and pet the dog when they're terrified - flooding like that just reinforces the fear and lack of control they're feeling. Hopefully the comparison isn't insulting but I do think there are some similarities between our brains and other mammals.

Anyway if I were in your shoes I would ask if the dog can be put away in another area (maybe a playpen if another room isn't possible?) during visits for now or at bare minimum leashed and not allowed to make contact with your kid (while you gradually work on the fear in more controlled settings, maybe with the help of a therapist if it's a severe issue).
posted by randomnity at 8:27 AM on June 7, 2021 [32 favorites]

Ok your daughter is afraid of dogs because she has a more cautious, reactive personality & she wasn't exposed. I don't think that affects my answer. Children need to be addressed where they are.
posted by muddgirl at 8:31 AM on June 7, 2021 [4 favorites]

I think your wife is right that helping your daughter get over this fear is better than helping her continue to avoid dogs. With dogs that are afraid of unfamiliar people, the generally recommended approach is to start with a very low-level, non-threatening exposure - a person so far away the dog notices them but isn't frightened, or at least isn't very frightened. You offer the dog a really delicious treat when they see the person. Repeat, many times, until the dog sees a person and happily anticipates a treat. Then you gradually start moving closer and closer to people. It seems like a similar approach would make sense for your daughter. (I see randomnity just said basically the same thing.)

I wonder how your daughter would feel about watching videos of dogs who are afraid of strangers going through this desensitization process and gradually getting over their fear? I'm sure you could find some. Maybe the idea that dogs can be scared too - that a dog could even be scared of her - would make them seem a bit less threatening. And it would be a way to introduce the idea of gradually getting used to a scary thing and learning to feel okay about it. Maybe she would enjoy coming up with ideas about what her reward for looking at a dog could be.
posted by Redstart at 8:39 AM on June 7, 2021 [18 favorites]

I don't have a dog phobia, but I have a phobia of a common thing (vomiting) that started when I was quite young. Exposure and rationalising the fear has been the biggest thing that's helped me get to the point where I don't have a low key anxiety attack if someone eats chicken or sushi near me, and I can interact with triggering experiences without freaking out most of the time. It's a well known technique that helps people combat phobias for a reason.

But! As others have pointed out here, your kid isn't able to consent to this right now. All she will get from this experience is reinforced knowledge that the dog is indeed scary (jumping and licking at her) and her parents didn't do anything to protect her. That doesn't help. I'm surprised your wife thought it was okay to let her get so upset around her phobia trigger. Even in exposure therapy with adults, it's a slow process, you don't go from 0 to 60 overnight.

I agree that if you actually want to get her past this, you need to do as muddgirl and others have suggested and start slowly, letting her set the pace. Have you asked her what it is that scares her about them? Is it their size, their teeth, the noises they make? That might help inform how to move forward. And I strongly agree that any steps around real dogs needs to be done with calm, quiet dogs who are used to children, not a yappy excited terrier -- a trained therapy dog would be ideal.

For what it's worth, I don't think that you're being overly sensitive in being upset that your child was so scared she couldn't breathe. Fear and stress aren't emotions that help children, especially not ones as young as your daughter. "Tough love" is an outdated way to raise children. In fact, studies have shown that children who are frequently stressed out are more likely to develop issues with their mental and even physical health as adults, relating to chemical imbalances developed within the first few years of their life.
posted by fight or flight at 8:41 AM on June 7, 2021 [15 favorites]

This is a tough one. Here's the thing, though, at its core, even a small dog is large to a small kid. Dogs are really annoying at lunging and licking kids faces. They do it because...dogs. But also because kids are closer to them. I would not like to have a dog lunge at my face and lick it. I'm an adult so I get to set my boundaries and decide whether a dog can lick my face or not. If I'm down on the ground and a dog comes barreling in and licks my face, well, that's what happens sometimes. But, I have the liberty as a tall(ish) human to stand up and not be licked. No one demands that I be cool with a dog lunging and licking my face so...let's just reframe this issue as one in which the comfort level request by the child is an okay one.

My kiddo started out super into dogs and then became wary of them and then full on scared of them. And I decided that we would address the "scared" part as its own issue. Number one, I told her that I would always protect her from dogs. This means that when we walk through the neighborhood, she can get behind me. When we see a dog coming (she's bigger now and this has started to be much less of an issue, but I digress), I say, "Hey, there's a dog up ahead, do you want to get on the other side of me? Let's cross the street, okay?" And I would hold her hand. As her fear manifested early on, she would bolt away from me (and away from the dog) and that was unsafe - bolting in random direction when we are walking along the roadway is not safe and didn't make me feel like I could keep her safe. So, we discussed that.

When we are approached by a dog or a person who has a dog who we want to interact with, I put my hands out front so that the dog cannot jump on me and I put my daughter to the side or back of me. Lately she is less frightened of dogs but I still think it's uncool for dogs to be allowed to jump on people and lick them without the person's explicit okay. Sorry, dog owners, that's how I feel. So I've taught her this same method, hands out in front, palms forward, make eye contact with the owner and not the dog. If the dog is behaving, ask if the dog is pettable and only then slowly engage with the dog. If you start off all high-pitched and bend down and start ruffling up their fuzzy heads, they can get excited and jump up or behave unpredictably.

If we have a person bring their dog over, we engage in the same way. Almost always, the dog owner will say, "This dog loves kids [is friendly, would never bite, etc., etc.,]...." That's an opportunity to say, "Oh, of course, but my kiddo has had some bad experiences so we are working on helping them overcome this issue and keeping some distance to start is really helpful." Then the dog owner knows that this isn't a free for all and is generally better about managing their dog interaction.

I think that working through this issue with the MIL is going to be important. And it's also important for some of the MILs visits to be friendly fun ones and not characterized by the dog drama. If your kiddo is allowed this boundary and you respect it, and as the dog grows and is better behaved/more mature, I bet the kid will come around. There are more ways to interact with a dog than rolling around on the floor and being crazy. And MIL can't bring the dog everywhere so consider setting up some dog free visits in the near term.
posted by amanda at 8:43 AM on June 7, 2021 [21 favorites]

So the way it works in dog training is you give the dog a treat after every time the scary thing happens. Start with a tiny amount of scary thing, then work your way up as the dog becomes desensitized.

My mom used to give me gum (a special treat!) for airplane takeoffs and landings. And I always used to love airplane rides, especially takeoffs and landings. I never connected these dots until I learned about the dog training thing. So I bet this "dog training" method works on kids, too.
posted by aniola at 8:47 AM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]

When they came in, the dog jumped up and started licking her, as dogs do. She climbed up on top of the couch, tears gushing down her face, screaming to the point she was almost hyperventilating

What about if you just didn't allow the dog to run up at her and start licking her? This is not that much of a dilemma. How do you think you can convince her that dogs are friendly and not scary if you put her in situations with unpredictable and uncontrollable interactions like this?
posted by bleep at 8:48 AM on June 7, 2021 [65 favorites]

There are so many choices in this situation I think.

I was glad to read the dog was eventually leashed, but I don't think letting the visit start with the dog jumping up and licking your daughter's face was a great approach. My recommendation would be to embark on a course of helping your daughter slowly (over months or years) de-escalate her fears. Having a dog lick your face is like step 97, not step one.

So...can you meet your MIL at a park and just be near the dog but not within range? Then meet at the park and have your daughter maybe leave a treat for the dog and then step back? Then once she's okay with that, a closer picnic at the park. Then a very short, leashed visit, etc.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:50 AM on June 7, 2021 [19 favorites]

I think your daughter needs help with her phobia. I think you have a duty to help her treat it; otherwise it will be a problem in her life going forward. This is a big enough deal that I think it makes sense to spend some serious effort on it -- just as you would for anything else your kid needed help with.

A Havanese could be contained in a play yard when MIL visits. Ideally MIL would pay for it, but honestly, I'd just get it. Put the dog in it. Kid may still be upset, but at least she will know rationally that the dog can't get at her.* Other kid can go in the play yard if he wants. Over time hopefully the normalization and exposure will help your girl.

*don't let it get at her!
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:51 AM on June 7, 2021 [10 favorites]

Like fight or flight said, I wonder if you've asked her to describe her fear? Even if she's never had a bad experience with a dog, maybe she saw something on TV? Or maybe she hates the sound of barking? Getting her to really articulate and name her fear seems like a solid start. But yes, I agree with starting with TV and books, dog parks from a distance, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 8:51 AM on June 7, 2021 [2 favorites]

I love dogs and personally am not usually bothered by them jumping on me or licking me, but I would not just write that off as “as dogs do.” It’s not good manners and even if I don’t mind it I try not to encourage it when someone else’s dog does that to me because many people don’t like it. There are a lot of well-behaved dogs who won’t do that. I don’t have suggestions for dealing with your mother-in-law’s dog, specifically (other than more training), but maybe it’d be helpful for your daughter to experience (from a distance) one of those calm, well-trained, “bomb-proof” dogs that will just sit and soak up all the petting offered and wag its tail.
posted by needs more cowbell at 8:54 AM on June 7, 2021 [14 favorites]

Seconding what others have said about exposing your daughter to dogs in a safe place, not her home. Her home is where she is supposed to feel safest, not terrified.

That being said, I feel that this is like having a child who is afraid of water. Yes, you could do nothing because she's not old enough to "consent", but that's not what being a parent is about. Your job is to protect your child, and that means teaching them things they need to know to be safe. A child who freaks out in water is much more likely to drown than a child who has been taught to swim. So you teach them to swim. Likewise, a child who freaks out around dogs is much more likely to get bitten than a child who has been taught to interact with dogs safely. So you teach them to be calm around dogs.

(I'm not suggesting that a dog will bite someone just because the person is freaking out. But like all animals dogs respond better and more predictably to calm people than they do to people screaming and crying. A dog may interpret that behaviour as aggression and think they have to defend themselves.)

Do it slowly, start with images of puppies sleeping, move on to (carefully pre-screened) YouTube videos of puppies sleeping, and work up from there to eventually seeing puppies sleeping in real life. From there, work your way up to a normal sized dog.

Aside from wanting her to have a good relationship with man's best friend, and not having to limit her social activities for the rest of her life (would you really want her to never, ever leave her home because she's too scared a dog might be around?) this is, as others have said, a safety issue. Dogs exist. She will encounter them. For her own sake you need to desensitise her. She doesn't have to love dogs, but she needs to not freak out around them.

I'm sorry if that sounds blunt, I know you love your daughter with all your heart and don't want to upset her. But done right, desensitisation shouldn't cause screaming fits, it should breed confidence and self-discipline, and those are really important for kids to learn too.
posted by underclocked at 8:56 AM on June 7, 2021 [40 favorites]

Came here to say what needs more cowbell did. I think it's worth working with your daughter to gently get her used to dogs, since they're kind of everywhere. But I would also focus on teaching MIL's dog manners. There are plenty of dogs who greet people calmly and without the jumping and the licking and the etc.
posted by kalimac at 8:57 AM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]

I still think it's uncool for dogs to be allowed to jump on people and lick them without the person's explicit okay. Sorry, dog owners, that's how I feel.

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment and am myself a dog owner. I really wish that dog owners who think this behavior is okay would consider the impact of their dog's behavior on other people and on dogs in general. Jumping, licking dogs are dogs that are out of control and not trained properly. This reflects poorly on them and makes people understandably wary of all dogs.

The jumping and licking is not acceptable social behavior in my opinion. I would absolutely expect your MIL to make sure that the dog is kept away from your daughter until the dog is trained (if it can be at this point). Your daughter should not be deliberately exposed to ill-behaved (poorly-trained, really) dogs.

Source: longtime dog owner who has had a reactive aggressive dog before and knows how very serious dog-human interactions can be. I've also been bit on the face by a dog that the owner assured me was friendly so there's that.

So anyway I strongly agree with all the above comments that suggest this particular dog is likely to only exacerbate your daughter's fear because of the dog's behavior. If you'd like to expose her to dogs, find dogs who are properly socialized and start slow. Good luck!
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 9:03 AM on June 7, 2021 [23 favorites]

I agree with your wife that it would be good to help you daughter overcome her phobia - I had some, when I was her age (including dogs), and I wish people had helped me get over them instead of just helping me avoid things. Dog phobias, in particular, can feed themselves. If every time she visits a house with a dog, the dog is kept in a separate room, that dog is probably going to be barking the whole time to be let out and see who's there. This can lead her to think that dogs are inherently scarier, since her sense of them is that they bark and try to get at you constantly. At least, that's what happened to me.

That said, if your wife had a patient who needed exposure therapy for dogs, surely the treatment plan wouldn't be just to unpredictably have a dog show up from time to time and jump on her until she cries. This needs to be planned out thoughtfully. The priority should be helping your daughter get over her fear, not making sure that her grandma gets to visit unencumbered.
posted by Ragged Richard at 9:04 AM on June 7, 2021 [29 favorites]

my younger brother was scared of dogs for no reason he ever communicated. Around age five, my parents (both dog loving people their whole lives) bought a small dog in hopes he might get over it. He did. And now, you could almost say his whole life is his dogs. He has two and he loves them, is great with them. He recently endured the meltdown of a thirty year relationship and (his words), "They saved my life."

So yes, based on this one situation, I'd argue that there is value in your daughter finding a way to get past her apparently irrational fear.
posted by philip-random at 9:09 AM on June 7, 2021 [6 favorites]

Just agreeing with what others have said - it sounds like the dog hasn't been trained enough. All dogs are different and there are some things that are very difficult to train for certain dogs (for example, I will never be able to let my dog off leash in an area with squirrels around). But training a dog not to jump up on people is generally pretty easy and is a fairly minimal expectation of a dog owner.
posted by dogwalker3 at 9:14 AM on June 7, 2021 [10 favorites]

Coming back in with a quick idea: your MIL's dog is a puppy who needs training (as pointed out above). Perhaps it would be useful for your daughter to eventually (not right now!) observe (safely, from a distance, with your support) the puppy's training, and maybe even take part in it herself if/when she wants to or feels like she can? It might help her feel like she has more control if she learns some basic commands or how the dog will respond when given treats when it's good. This is going to be a dog which is in her life more than others, so it might be especially useful to cultivate a relationship there.

Havanese are a smart and trainable breed, they enjoy having things to do, so hopefully the puppy would respond well to being trained and maybe even learning some tricks. But this needs to be something you work up to and your MIL needs to be on board with it. Consider it a requirement for everyone's safety and security, as well as the dog's own health and wellness, as much as anything.
posted by fight or flight at 9:23 AM on June 7, 2021 [7 favorites]

This might be worth you and your wife coordinating a session with your MIL and a dog trainer (whose job is to train people really) to talk about ways everybody can improve this situation.

There's not really a scenario in which your MIL's dog being better controlled/behaved is going to make this worse, and you will need the two of them functioning as a team in order to take any next steps that involve your daughter and the dog having any interaction.

When you start looking for trainers, you might mention this issue specifically - I'll bet it won't take a ton of looking to find a trainer who has experience with this kind of situation.

Until that side of the equation is ready to move forward, you should meet up in places where the dog is not. The trainer should be able to help your wife workshop a series of scenarios (like watching from a distance as MIL does a short training session with the dog, or even first just watching a video/facetime of same) that are safe and compassionate in helping your daughter get past this.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:32 AM on June 7, 2021 [6 favorites]

Bleep copied & pasted the exact same paragraph I was going to. I was scared of dogs as a kid and if my parents knew that, but stood by while a dog jumped up at me and tried to lick me, I would have felt hugely betrayed as well as absolutely terrified.

I’m still not mad keen on dogs, but they’re OK if they’re on the floor, acting predictably, and not about to do something sudden or enter my space. If your wife wants to do exposure therapy on your daughter, she needs to do it by having her around a dog that is calm, predictable, and under control.

I feel shaken just thinking about your poor daughter being leapt all over by the dog, how terrifying for her.

She’s shown you how she likes her dogs - on a lead and not able to get to her. Why not make sure that’s the only experience she has with this dog for a while, so she can calm her level of arousal when in the room with a dog. Don’t make A Thing out of it, just tell her the dog will stay safely away from her and let it be like that for a while. Once she knows that’s the baseline, and things can always return to that safe level at any point if she tells the adults she’s scared, she might have the sense of security to start branching out - sitting a bit closer at first, maybe eventually petting him while he’s on a tight lead and so on.

But you make her feel safe around dogs by doing things that let her feel safe around dogs, not by repeatedly terrifying her through exposure to an out-of-control dog.
posted by penguin pie at 9:39 AM on June 7, 2021 [14 favorites]

Chiming in because I don't see anyone recommending the Be A Tree program - lots of helpful resources for preventing dog bites specifically and improving interactions between kids and dogs in general. As they point out, "Half of all kids are bitten by a dog by the time they are 12 years old. A good percentage of these bites are from a dog the child knows." The steps in the Be A Tree program can help so your daughter knows what to do when encountering any dog. Building her confidence could help! Good luck.
posted by acridrabbit at 9:50 AM on June 7, 2021 [5 favorites]

the dog jumped up and started licking her, as dogs do

This is totally inappropriate of the dog. Well, in this situation. Not all dogs do this and its up to the owner (or you) to stop it, not just shrug and say dogs will be dogs.

As someone who had a real visceral fear of dogs through adolescence (in my case because I was chased down by one) letting this go on will make every interaction with the dog stressful and traumatic and work against acceptance. She'll have the feeling of dread before the dog gets there, then the actual presence of the dog will confirm she was right to be scared. As a kid standing around with no options while a dog you can't control decides to jump on you and you just hear adults saying unhelpful things ("It just wants to play", "It's friendly," "Don't be scared") is horrible. How would you feel if a huge bear ran at you and jumped on you in a park? And while it didn't hurt you, it only stopped when an even bigger giant physically pulled it off of you? That's what it's like for her.

In my case I also got the shame of feeling like a coward, sometimes amplified by being chastised afterwards. This made the experience even worse.

Being around a well behaved dog is the way to move past this. It will show her dogs can be friendly and predictable and do what you want them to do.

So on reread I see that your wife is a CBT therapist, so I think maybe she should know better than I do? But is she maybe underestimating the trauma these interactions have? Even small dogs are full size to little kids.
posted by mark k at 10:01 AM on June 7, 2021 [16 favorites]

It's commonly recommended to introduce dogs to each other outside, away from their perceived territories. Can she take a walk with all of you, preferably on the other side of the group from the dog, hopefully to a park where she can have plenty of stuff to do stuff without running into the dog, just having him be present? No forced close interaction at all. And then ice cream afterwards.

I grew up very wary of dogs (in my neighborhood, there were basically [a] strays or [b] "guard dogs" that had been chained up and beaten into aggressiveness), and stayed that way in adulthood until a close friend got a yellow lab puppy. And, I mean, that's the least threatening version of dog imaginable, I'm not made of stone, and now I love them, which has genuinely enriched my life--but the fear should be respected. Dogs have teeth and claws and can knock kids over! It's not unreasonable to be worried.
posted by praemunire at 10:04 AM on June 7, 2021 [1 favorite]

one suggestion I haven’t seen here; kids look to their parents for guidance on how to feel and act, so if you can model safe happy dog interactions for her that might help. I think a playpen for the dog when it visits/you visit your MIL is a good idea; this way your daughter can observe the dog without fear of it approaching her.

I echo fingerandtoes; you definitely want to address this, for your daughter’s safety. I grew up with very docile dogs, and therefore never learned that some dogs can be aggressive and need to be approached carefully; this led to me behaving stupidly around a pit bull when I was in my 20s and getting bitten badly. On a less dramatic note, there are a lot of dogs in the world, and your daughter will probably have friends throughout her life who have pups.

Havanese and similar “purse dogs” are tough; I own a similar puppy and the jumping and licking is real. They are bred to be companions and not much else, so they tend to be obsessed with people. But in my experience they grow out of that stage by the time they’re 1 or 2, assuming they’re trained, so hopefully that helps!
posted by nancynickerson at 10:15 AM on June 7, 2021 [1 favorite]

The dog should be kept in a bedroom (either at MiLs house or yours) until it can safely interact with children. Period. There is zero reason a small dog cannot be separated from the family in a house with both a bedroom and living room. Crating is also an option in either place.

While the phobia is your issue to help your daughter work through, dealing with an ill-behaved animal is your MiLs issue to resolve in a way that keeps your child safe. I would draw a firm boundary here with her. I would not risk further traumatizing a child because someone wouldn't agree to put their dog in another room for a few hours.
posted by ananci at 10:17 AM on June 7, 2021 [10 favorites]

One specific point to watch with keeping the dog in another room is if its behavior in that room still bothers your daughter. If it yips, or scratches at the door, if I were your daughter I think I'd be operating in fear that the known threat would get out and get at me again, or even just having my heart jolt every time it yips.

What you don't want to do is to dismiss that on the basis of "look, we've done what we could" or "it can't actually harm her now."
posted by away for regrooving at 10:49 AM on June 7, 2021 [2 favorites]

CBT should NOT involve terrifying people. Instead, there is a very gradual exposure to the trigger that allows the person to do something a little to moderately scary, find out it is OK, try it again until it is not so scary and then move on to something that is still moderately scary. On a scale of 1-10, you want to be at 4-5-6, not 8-9-10s.

During that visit, our wife was obviously not in her professional mode (or the situation moved too fast) Knowing that your daughter was afraid of dogs, it was a bad move on the part of all of the adults involved to allow her first interaction with MIL dog to be out of control and terrifying.

I think it would be great if you, your wife and your daughter could work together to come up with a desensitization plan. For example, it might start with looking at photos of dogs and then watching videos and then watching real dogs from far away. However, I would expect it to take months (at least) before she would ready to deal with an exuberant Yorkie. (and it will longer now that she has had this bad experience.) In the meanwhile, she really needs to be better protected. If you couldn't see the problem before, you can see it now. So yes, help her overcome her fear and yes keep the dog away from her until she is ready to avoid terrorizing her further.
posted by metahawk at 10:49 AM on June 7, 2021 [14 favorites]

WhenI was small, I was afraid of my uncle's dachshund. He was only marginally smaller than me and he barked wildly and ran at me (to play! Completely harmless! as adults kept reassuring me).

One day, the adults weren't close by and the dog chased me all the way across a meadow. To this day, my mother tells me how hilarious it was, the way I stumbled into her arms, sobbing with terror, trying to climb up her to get away from such a tiny dog.

Both my uncle and the dog are long dead.

I still loathe dogs.

Don't do this to your child. Keep the dog where it can't reach the child. Train it not to bark or approach her. Please.
posted by Omnomnom at 10:51 AM on June 7, 2021 [17 favorites]

The therapist role carries authority as responsibilities to protect the client's interests. The parent role also carries authority and responsibility.

If I were your wife, I'd try to keep a close eye on whether I might be stacking my authorities without stacking the corresponding responsibilities. I don't know if she is, but I raise this because it sounds like she is wearing some amount of her CBT hat -- but not the part where if you had worked up to live dog exposure and then that dog got loose and jumped all over your dog-phobic client, that would I think be treated as a serious screw-up?
posted by away for regrooving at 11:13 AM on June 7, 2021 [6 favorites]

Your wife is actually an expert on this subject and I would defer to her. Avoidance ramps up anxiety, in everyone. If you feel your wife is not a neutral enough party, I'd consider seeing a professional about your daughter's phobia.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:26 AM on June 7, 2021 [2 favorites]

Also, a phobia is only when the thing is not an actual threat. A dog running up at you like this is literally a dangerous threat and she reacted appropriately. I wouldn't treat this like a phobia.
posted by bleep at 12:23 PM on June 7, 2021 [5 favorites]

Response by poster: Well, that did not go well. I just tried talking to my wife about what happened. I agree that our daughter needs to learn how to deal with dogs, but I tried to make the point that this was not an effective way for her to learn. It does not seem to have been well-received. She seems to be of the opinion that dogs jumping on people is just a fact of life that people need to get used to. There was a weird analogy about sexual assault that actually makes me pretty uncomfortable. We do not seem to have made any progress on the underlying issue, although she did agree that the dog probably shouldn't come over to visit in the short- to medium-term. And apparently the dog is going to obedience camp in July. So hopefully the problem at hand is resolved, at least. The suggestions for how to gradually introduce our daughter to dogs were helpful (to me!). We have a bunch of gates and a play yard from when the kids were littler, so that's an option if he does come back over in the future.

To the person who suggested there was other issues at work here, mark as best wrong answer to you!
posted by kevinbelt at 1:01 PM on June 7, 2021 [1 favorite]

Your wife knows the value of therapy, and she presumably knows better than to practice therapy on her family members. This sounds like a severe phobia, that has recently been aggravated and reinforced. A good therapist should be able to handle it expeditiously, and make life easier for Mom and Mom's mom. Dogs are good, they are common, people your daughter loves will have dogs, she might encounter them at school or many other places -- it's worth dealing with professionally.
posted by amtho at 1:14 PM on June 7, 2021 [1 favorite]

Wow. I'm sorry this sounds like it might be a complicated situation.

Humane Society resources for your MIL to help her try to train the dog to stop jumping on people in case she'd like to address the issue immediately. I would if I were her.

From that same page of resources from the Humane Society:

"Does your dog jump on you as if they've got springs on their feet? Like it or not, we humans are to blame. We not only permit this behavior, we encourage it.

We know we shouldn't encourage jumping, but a fuzzy puppy is just too cute to resist. We forget that cute behavior in a puppy can become a real nuisance when he grows up.

Allowing your dog to jump on people can be dangerous, too. You can end up scratched and bruised. A child or frail adult can be knocked down and seriously injured.

Solving a behavior problem like jumping requires both management of the situation and training your dog."

So I would encourage you to encourage your wife to familiarize herself with the basics of dog training and management before allowing your daughter to be further traumatized.

Again, good luck. I'm rooting for you and your kid and I hope you can resolve this with minimal angst.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 1:19 PM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]

Oh dear. I'm sorry it didn't go well. I think, maybe, once everyone cools off, it might be helpful to just "start the conversation over." Like, from zero. I know that I, as a parent, can sometimes dig in when my first reaction was maybe not so successful. Like, dogs are fine for the first kid and we did nothing! Surely 'nothing' is the right way to go. It took me many dog-fear interactions with my daughter to stop my knee-jerk, "It's fine! You're fine! You'll get used to it. You used to looove dogs," and move on to something more productive. I had to take a step back, set down my biases and think about what exactly was going on here. I also talked a lot with my kid (still do! because our neighborhood is like that) about what was and was not risky about dogs and how we can treat each kind of situation. Sometimes she wanted to know, what would happen if a dog tried to attack us or her? I told her what would happen. And I won't spell it out here but what would happen would be me doing any means necessary to protect myself and/or my kid. But she knows. She knows that there are options and that I will protect her.

This is obviously so different from this family dog situation. I love the idea about having a gated area for the dog to hang out. But what would probably be great is clearly communicating to your child and everyone exactly what the plan is. If this were me, I'd say, "[Doggo] is coming over today but this is our plan... you do not have to play with the dog or do anything with the dog. If you are worried or nervous at any time, you can come to me and I will help fix the situation." Like, whatever the plan is, make sure that the kiddo knows that it is safe to get help, that it's okay if she feels unsure or nervous and that you will help. And it would, of course, be ideal if everyone was on board with the general plan. Call it a desensitization plan and get everyone to be cool with it. If the dog is out of the pen, put it on a leash. Don't let anyone do something different unless it has been okayed by the kid and/or the kid is allowed to be in another room with the door closed.

Good luck! Sending you strength. This stuff is hard to navigate and I'm impressed that you're willing to take another look at the situation. This can be remedied if everyone can kind of expand their notion of how things "ought" to be.
posted by amanda at 1:32 PM on June 7, 2021 [4 favorites]

I have a Havanese who loves kids. She is very excited to see them - too excited. Although she's gentle, the dog's level of excitement can be scary for kids. One of my daughter's friends was afraid of the dog for, say, the first five or six visits before getting used to her. Techniques we used were putting the dog in another room so it would leave the kids alone, and giving the dog a calming treat before visits. Slowly, over time, the friend has become okay with the dog being around and even likes her.

It sounds like your daughter needs a much slower introduction to the dog. You're right, forcing it won't help. If there's nowhere for it to be shut away, having a crate for it (in both locations) might be a good idea. Your daughter could work up to feeding the dog treats through the bars.
posted by Knowyournuts at 2:24 PM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]

The thing about your post that scorched me is how betrayed I would have felt if I were your daughter. Fear may not always be rational, but it's still fear.

Your primary job as a parent is to protect your child from physical and emotional trauma. Your MIL seems not to see controlling her dog as important, so you must step up to protect her. Frankly, whether your daughter ever feels comfortable around dogs is secondary. Plenty of people avoid dogs for lots of reasons, and they are just fine without them in their lives; insisting that she "needs" to like dogs is your and your wife's agenda, and your daughter is not in agreement. Clearly you are concerned about what happened and your daughter's reaction or you wouldn't have posted. Please respect her autonomy and protect her from the sheer trauma of having a dog jump on her and put his mouth near her face!

Knowing that her parents protect her from something that terrifies her is much, much more essential to a healthy parent-child relationship than is the "throw the kid in the lake to make them swim" school of parenting. She needs to know that her parents are always dependable, rock-solidly protecting her, sensitive to her fears, and always, always on her side.
posted by citygirl at 3:29 PM on June 7, 2021 [27 favorites]

I would hypothesize that your daughter is afraid of dogs because she wasn't exposed to them as a kid.

I would hypothesize this is not the case.

Nobody in my family ever particularly cared for animals in person (though we like them well enough on our screens). We were, at best, neutral. When I was four, we were at the home of beloved (adult) family friends. I was sitting in a chair completely still when the friends' small poodle was freaked out by a hubbub in the household (doorbell, happy excitement), ran in circles, jumped on people, and then bit a chunk out of my leg, through my jeans. The dog, many years old, had NEVER done anything like that previously, and I hadn't been doing anything but sitting in a chair. The husband of the family loved that dog like he loved his children, but seeing the pain and subsequent terror that it caused me, this giant WWII vet cried and cried, and promised he'd never have the dog unleashed around me. Indeed, everyone in the house that day recognized that children come before animals.

I was in a home surrounded by family and friends who loved me, and nobody could move as fast as that dog. You can't just promise to put your body between yourself and the dog, because it's not enough; it provides no guarantees, and it makes you untrustworthy. And you can't expect a child to suffer exposure therapy as if she were a grownup afraid of flying.

I require that clients put their dogs in separate rooms and (with the exception of one client's tiny dog, who thinks he's a cat and insists on sitting on my feet) will not enter a home with an unrestrained dog. This is because I was taught that my personal, physical boundaries matter. If a parent does not protect a child's physical boundaries from animals, how is she to believe you will protect her from other dangers? To protect her bodily autonomy? Just as no child should be forced to hug or kiss a relative or family friend, no child should have to be terrorized by anything that presents the likely possibility of an actual danger, either physically or emotionally. Unrestrained animals present a danger.

This is a problem of a poorly trained dog, which is your MIL's responsibility. But it's also a problem of you and your wife not seeing eye to eye on limiting unnecessarily anxiety-provoking situations for your child. This isn't speaking in public or the first day of school, safe situations that nonetheless cause distress. Being afraid of an unrestrained or improperly restrained dog is like being afraid of a person with a gun, even if the person isn't doing anything with the gun. Your job is to protect your child from all possible harm and trauma.

A person can live a full, happy life without ever having engaging with or encountering dogs. It's pretty hard to live a fully, happy life after feeling betrayed by your family. Your description of yesterday's situation is agonizing to me; unless (and even if) your wife specializes in child psychology, her CBT approach seems to be obscuring her parental responsibility. There are a million ways to improve the dog's behavior and gently engage your child as she ages, but requiring your child to be present around dogs seems cruel. I really hope you and your wife are able to approach this in a way that mitigates, rather than continues to cause, emotional trauma.

On preview: citygirl has it exactly right, and with a lot fewer words.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 3:57 PM on June 7, 2021 [19 favorites]

Not to take this in another direction, but this experience feels like one of those parenting times that can really set the tone for a lot of positive interactions and feelings in the future. In my childhood, at some point I decided that I had no one on my side. I needed to handle things on my own. This led me to "handle" some scary situations on my own when it would have been enormously advantageous to get a trusted adult to either take over or help me figure it out. But, there were too many instances, at pivotal times in which I was shamed, blamed and even punished for trying to get help or for needing help. You kind of never know when your kid is going to form a "core memory" you know? I think there's a way to handle this that shows and/or reinforces that your daughter's feelings are okay to express, that you can help her without yourself becoming unhinged and that you won't think less of her for having which, honestly, is not an outsized reaction as you can see from the range of perspectives and experiences above.
posted by amanda at 4:01 PM on June 7, 2021 [9 favorites]

Adding to the pile on, if the situation were reversed (e.g. a little human was being a little human, but her actions were terrorizing a lil' pupper)... the answer would be protect the doggo from the kiddo and separate them... not... you know kids will be kids?). I think you and your wife should be in agreement that in the long term you share a common goal that you both want your daughter to be as comfortable as she can be around dogs. However, there are other ways to do "exposure therapy" that are not tied to this particular dog. There are calm, well behaved canines out there not owned by family members. Moreover exposure can happen in real life, on screens, or via books. I think you might want to frame the situation with your wife is that you don't want to hurt your relationship with your daughter nor jeopardize your daughter's relationship with her grandmother. Finally, using this dog for exposure therapy puts your wife in a tough position, since she has to wear the parent hat, the daughter hat, and the therapist hat.
posted by oceano at 4:50 PM on June 7, 2021 [1 favorite]

hmm .. is she also afraid of young puppies? Just curious ..
posted by elgee at 5:00 PM on June 7, 2021

Response by poster: Talked to my daughter tonight. She’s a lot calmer about the situation. She says she wants to be friends with dogs, but they’re really loud (she hates fireworks, motorcycles, and other loud stuff, so this checks out), and she’s worried they’ll bite. I asked if she’s still scared when the dog is quiet on the other side of the room, and she said that’s ok as long as he stays quiet. I reassured her that we would keep her safe. She doesn’t seem particularly traumatized, so that’s good. She did mention that when she grows up, she’s gonna get a dog who listens better. I love kids.
posted by kevinbelt at 5:43 PM on June 7, 2021 [20 favorites]

She seems to be of the opinion that dogs jumping on people is just a fact of life that people need to get used to.

I just wanted to chime in that I really disagree with that opinion, and you're not wrong to have higher standards for the dogs in your life. I had a bad experience with a family friend's badly-behaved dog as a kid, and it wasn't until I was in my mid-20s and spent a good amount of time around a number of well-behaved dogs that I realized not all dogs are uncontrollable jumpy lickey bitey jerks. This may well be the default state of dogs, but that's why training is a thing. I hope the obedience camp works out, and +1 to a dog who listens better, lol.
posted by gueneverey at 6:06 PM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]

It sounds like you live close enough that MIL doesn't have to leave the dog overnight or anything, in which case, why does she "have" to bring her with? A dog who can't be alone for a few hours is a problem MIL needs to work on, and can't rely on a child to just suck it up if she wants to see Grandma.
posted by nakedmolerats at 6:10 PM on June 7, 2021 [6 favorites]

I'm wondering if your wife is feeling like this is somehow a criticism of her mother where she feels required to take her mother's side. Now that you have agreed the dog won't come over for a while, maybe you can engage her in thinking about some small safe steps to help introduce your daughter to dogs in way that is more appropriate. Hopefully that will give you chance to have a fresh conversation where you can both focus what is best for your daughter.

That said, my guess is that MIL is unlikely to get the dog well enough trained to completely solve the problems so you may need some other strategies to make sure the dog is calm before it gets near your daughter (and even then you need to be watchful)
posted by metahawk at 7:32 PM on June 7, 2021 [3 favorites]

Just to give you a dog owner's perspective: I am a single person crazy-dog-lover who loves my dog like my child, but the comfort of my guests (or the occupants of a house I'm going over) to is more important than my dog being included. Even when I lived in a 1-bedroom apartment, I would keep my dog locked in my bedroom if someone came over who wasn't comfortable with my dog. I would never bring him to someone's house if they had a child who was afraid!
posted by radioamy at 7:37 PM on June 7, 2021 [4 favorites]

A lot of this is probably about the need to feel in control - when your daughter doesn’t feel safe about what the dog is going to do, she is more likely to be scared even of friendly interactions. But there are absolutely things that can make this situation more under control, if your MIL is willing (and I hope she will be, despite some of your updates). The dog can be kept in another room until your daughter says she’s ready to bring it into the room with you. And a Havanese is small enough that it can be kept in a carrier. So your daughter can see that the dog is in the room and see it through the mesh, and even let it lick or sniff her through the mesh, before agreeing to let the dog out of the carrier (still on a short leash and held in someone’s lap). Just giving her a chance to have a bit of control over when she’s ready to interact with the dog will likely help her overcome her fears on her own schedule.

One other thing I didn’t see mentioned- I have had two friendly dogs now who instinctively know when someone doesn’t like or is afraid of them, and each was/is determined to win that person over. They get more cuddly, more jumpy, more in-your-face lovingly adorable - basically more everything that a person who doesn’t like dogs, really doesn’t like. So the dog itself may be exacerbating the situation just by being doggedly (sorry) affectionate. Keeping it on a tighter leash should be the bare minimum.
posted by Mchelly at 8:10 PM on June 7, 2021 [2 favorites]

In the short term, if you have the financial flexibiity to do so, can you offer to pay for doggie day care on the days you want to visit your mother in law at her place? It would be nice to have grandma's place associated with grandma more than grandma's dog, at least until the dog is better trained.
posted by spamandkimchi at 11:05 PM on June 7, 2021

I'll preface this with- I am a dog person, not a child person, but training them is relatively the same.

Exposure to the fear is awesome- but only if your child is under threshold. That means that she isn't likely to learn anything positive if she's at the point where she's freaking out. The brain just stops being able to take in more information and increasing the exposure is more likely to create backlash and increased anxiety instead of decreased anxiety. Not good.

Ideally what you want is short exposures to the dog in a more neutral territory, a place where your child feels safe and where she can retreat if necessary. I like to do this in places like public parks, playgrounds-locations where there is both something to distract the child from the fear as well as plenty of space for them to not be right up next to the dog. Have the dog ride in a separate car, hanging out on a nearby bench and not moving around or making noise. Keeping the dog on a leash and distracting it with treats or a bone is perfect as long as the dog is not one that will resource guard. Basically you want the dog to blend into the background as much as possible while still being there. Seeing her peers interacting with the dog may help, but it may not. I would not use peer pressure to try and cajole her into greeting the dog, but seeing her friends interact and be ok with the dog may put the idea in her mind that it isn't going to kill her. Everything needs to be at her pace.

If the dog is at grandma's, keeping it in another room or in a crate is a good idea. At the minimum the dog should be on a leash and controlled around the child. No sudden movements, no jumping and licking, no acting wild. I would shoot for the dog staying on a place bed while around the child and not leaving it until released by an adult. Uncertainty breeds fear and erratic actions on the part of the dog is only going to make her reaction worse. If the dog is not trained in these behaviors that should be a priority and it needs to be a prerequisite before the two are around each other.

I'd probably spring for a positive reinforcement trainer for the dog if it seems necessary, at the least as a measure of goodwill for the conditions that grandma will need to be under while having the two around each other.

Don't make a big deal of it. That means also not overly coddling the child in a way that teaches them that acting fearful increases the attention they get from the behavior. Acknowledge their fear in an honest and positive way but in a way that helps them work through it. Explaining how the dog is not going to come up to them and ensuring that doesn't happen is critical. She needs to trust that no adult is going to put her in a situation she feels that she cannot handle. Any interaction between the child and the dogs needs to be initiated by the child, not bribed or forced.

It may be that your child may not be comfortable around the dog for any long periods of time (even 20 minutes might be too much at first) and may not want to do anything with the dog at all for a while- if ever. That's ok! The goal is not to get the child to be a dog lover, the goal is to simply have them neutral around dogs and not reacting out of fear.

The points about safety are a good one. I work a German Shepherd that is fantastic with children, as long as they are not the type to run screaming away from him. He's not a bite risk, but there are plenty of dogs out there that are not taught how to act around fearful kids and the natural reaction does not always end well for either party.
posted by shesaysgo at 1:57 AM on June 8, 2021 [2 favorites]

She says she wants to be friends with dogs, but they’re really loud (she hates fireworks, motorcycles, and other loud stuff, so this checks out), and she’s worried they’ll bite.

This bit leads me to suggest an occupational therapy evaluation for sensory processing issues, if you haven't done that already. It can make a huge difference.
posted by medusa at 1:58 AM on June 8, 2021 [4 favorites]

I wish your daughter could hang out with my one of my housemates’ dogs to experience what dogs can be like. He literally just sits next to me like a happy quiet lump wanting pets. He will also sometimes pointedly place himself between me & the smaller, chaotic younger dog who is a total jumper/licker/etc (she’s a rescue, housemates are working on it) when she’s getting really intense.

Also, as someone who also has sensory processing issues—I’ve noticed that feeling like I get an animal’s behavior makes a really big difference to me. I’ve never really gotten used to cats and don’t feel like I “get” them, so their sounds (when I’ve lived with other people’s cats) are often startling and uncomfortable and stressful to me. But dog communication comes more naturally to me so their behavior feels more logical/predictable and as a consequence their noises rarely bug me (with the exception of an older dog I’ve dogsat for who’s losing his hearing and will bark endlessly at times.)
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:21 AM on June 8, 2021 [2 favorites]

I was thinking about this thread yesterday and came in to make the same point that needs more cowbell makes. As a child, I was afraid of other people's dogs (not my own family's dogs, because they were super friendly and chill). I got better at dealing with strange dogs when I read more about dog communication and what their body language meant. Knowing about basic calming body language (no direct eye contact; no standing over and looming; no abrupt movements or high pitched noises) helped me to act confident around dogs and means that I have never yet been bitten, even though some people we knew had really barky, snappy, bad-tempered dogs! Later on the same kind of reading helped me to be more confident around cats as well.
posted by unicorn chaser at 5:15 AM on June 8, 2021 [4 favorites]

Not a CBT, but I think "dog jumping on a toddler and mouthing them" is not step one. Couldn't step one be "here's a picture of a cute puppy sitting in a field, lounging"? Then when you can look at that picture without freaking out, you work on touching the picture; then you work on looking at a stuffed Snoopy dog without stress, then you work on petting the Snoopy stuffie. These steps could take (seemingly) forever, but when you rush them you don't actually get progress. I don't know what the next 15 steps are, but I'm pretty sure jumpy-licky real dog interaction is much farther down the pike.

Maybe it's hard to be professional with your own kid, and it would be worth reaching out to a colleague for an independent opinion on what's developmentally appropriate for *a* 4yo, rather than *your* 4yo? I'm often amazed by my own reaction to my own kids' behavior----stuff that wouldn't even raise and eyebrow if it was somebody else's kid would get my blood pressure WAY UP with my own.

(Plus, you want to wire the "my parents protect me from the things I'm scared of" neurons together; you don't want to wire the "I was scared enough to almost hyperventilate and my parents didn't help." Little King Trashmouth's comment @ associating "scared" with "MIL" is spot on, too.)
posted by adekllny at 7:23 AM on June 8, 2021 [2 favorites]

needs more cowbell and unicorn chaser have said what I was going to say--as someone who grew up very scared of dogs, I think learning to suss our their intentions behind the often loud chaos of their outward behavior was a big part of me overcoming my fear. And it was a slow process. Dogs can be scary because they're unpredictable, or can seem that way, particularly when they're super active. And just hearing someone explain their behavior to you as you're trying to pull your face up away from their mouth just doesn't take. Being able to watch their patterns of behavior with other people at a distance does help.
posted by pykrete jungle at 9:49 AM on June 8, 2021

My dog and I were formerly a dog therapy team. Most of our work was as a reading therapy dog. We worked in a lot of public libraries and some schools. The idea is some kids with reading problems feel better reading to dogs. A child sits with my rock solid, expertly trained, dog who has been through many hours of training and tested by a national agency that liscences therapy dogs, and reads a book to him. Other parents and kids often sat just a little way away waiting their turn. Plenty of times parents brought their kids who were afraid of dogs to observe. The kid did not have to interact with the dog at all, many of them wound up wanting to though. It was supper gratifying when parents would tell me their child was formerly terrified of dogs as we both watched the same child snuggling and hugging my giant, gentle floof dog.

Check libraries on your area to see if they have a reading dog therapy program. Most likely the dog's handlers will be very familiar with people who are afraid of dogs coming to observe. They will be very reassuring and not push your daughter to do anything she doesn't feel comfortable doing. But more importantly, a therapy dog will never jump up or lick a person, or bark with out being instructed to. Tell your daughter there will be a dog at the library for story time. Assure her she will not have to touch the dog/be touched by the dog. She will not have to do anything she doesn't want to. Then take her to "hear the stories,"and see what happens. If she tolerates it without stress maybe keep going for awhile and see what develops. We had a lot of successes in the years we were working. Hopefully you will have one too!
posted by WalkerWestridge at 3:07 PM on June 8, 2021 [7 favorites]

I really, really want to emphasize the point made above (which seems confirmed by your update from your daughter) that this is not a phobia. Her fear of dogs is based on the very rational judgment that an unrestrained animal, acting in an unpredictable way, is a physical threat to her. That’s legitimately scary! Treating her response like it is irrational is both counterproductive and really disrespectful to your daughter.

I am an adult who loves animals, including dogs, but it’s a simple fact that sometimes dogs bite. (A lot of dog owners react like this is a slanderous statement, but... it’s just true.) And dog bites, or even scratches, are much more dangerous to a small child than to an adult. When I was in first grade, our family dog bit me on my face; I needed ten stitches on my cheek, and if the bite had been a half inch higher I would probably have lost my eye. And that was our family dog, whom I loved! But sometimes, things happen.

The more long-standing problem, though, was my parents’ response to it. They were very much supporters of the “exposure” theory for dealing with fear (we continued to have dogs my entire childhood), but all this meant was that I learned to hide my fear from them. I pretended that I didn’t like dogs rather than admit I was afraid of them. I wiggled out of a lot of trips or events where there was a possibility of something scary, because I knew they would make me do things in the interest of “toughening up.” And so I missed out on a lot, and I didn’t learn any actual healthy coping strategies for dealing with fear or anxiety until I was an adult. What’s more, I learned that my parents were fundamentally unsafe, because I couldn’t trust them to listen to me or respect my limits.

From your updates, I am very worried that a similar dynamic could take root with your daughter, particularly if your wife doesn’t learn to respect your child’s feeling and judgement. Especially after seeing the reference to sexual assault. You don’t explain that fully, but...it makes me very concerned that this mother-daughter relationship might not be a place your daughter is going to feel listened to or supported. It is a parent’s job to teach their child how to live, yes, but nobody can learn from someone they don’t trust, who makes them feel unsafe.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 4:30 PM on June 8, 2021 [9 favorites]

My kids had similar problems until they became best friends with kids who had a very large, very calm Bernese Mountain Dog. Lucky would bark once in greeting, submit to a petting (either minimal or extravagant) and go lie back down. He was never overly friendly, yet always ready for cuddles or to be used as a pillow. He was part of the background whenever they visited, and the kids got very used to him very quickly. The combination of an early fear of dogs and socialization with a big, calm, friendly dog gave them a healthy respect for strange dogs and a willingness to get to know them.
posted by lhauser at 8:13 PM on June 8, 2021

A dog that lunges up and licks people is not well-trained. It may be hard because it’s family, but I’d reframe that piece of it as perfectly reasonable on the part of your daughter.

For what it’s worth I am a dog person but my dogs are not allowed to get that close to people and never allowed to lick them. A lot of people are nervous around dogs and it’s the job of the dog’s person to keep them under control.
posted by winna at 1:03 PM on June 9, 2021 [4 favorites]

Look how many responses this question has gotten! People are often passionate about dogs, one way or another. May sound harsh, but true: many people will chose the company of their dogs over the company of humans who are afraid of them. This could limit your daughter's social life, and in general, going through life deathly afraid of something is not the best way to experience life.

I love dogs and have a couple. If you were my friend and asked me to put my dogs away because your child is afraid of them, I would oblige, but you would not be visiting my place much after that, sorry. Unless you'd ask for help in overcoming your child's fear and we'd work out a plan on slow, safe introductions. Probably starting with a calm dog being on a leash at the other side of the room while we focus on other things (e.g. neutral environment and neutral dog). I do think it's very important to work on helping your daughter overcome this fear.

With this said, when I was a little kid, I was deathly afraid of half-deflated balloons. Also was afraid of spiders and spider webs (still am, very much so). I'm guessing something about how a half-deflated balloon grabbed my fingers reminded me of the grabby sensation of a spider web. So anyway, once while cleaning in our apartment, my mother rolled out such a balloon from under the couch and I touched it, and it "grabbed" my fingers and I started wailing, terrified! I was 3 or so. Upon seeing this, my mother grabbed the balloon and cornered me with it, laughing, saying it's harmless, trying to get me to touch it again. The sense of betrayal I experienced in that moment was devastating. Would you laugh at a terrified adult? My fear was real, and rational, to me, at that moment. My mother betrayed my trust in similar small ways several other times in my young childhood. I'm almost 45 years old now, I still don't have a relationship with her and still work on trust issues in my relationships ("no one really cares about me" is the undercurrent). Do not do this to your daughter. Affirm and respect her. Do slow exposure with lots of reassurances. Make her feel safe and protected as you are helping her overcome something legitimately scary to her.
posted by LakeDream at 7:42 AM on June 10, 2021 [1 favorite]

I really like dogs and I would not bring my dog to the home of a child who is terrified of them. The dog can stay at home, crate-trained if necessary. It is absolutely the responsibility of a pet owner to manage their pet when outside their own home. I do not allow my dog to lunge, jump on anybody, etc. I'm a grandmother, if my grandchild was terrified of dogs, I would shut the dog in a bedroom for visits, crated if necessary. An uncrated dog locked in a room near people may chew or scratch; I had a dog who damaged a door.

Everybody thinks their dog will not do harm. When my son was 7, he was walking on a shopping center sidewalk; a large dog climbed out of a truck and attacked him, biting him. No warning or provocation. Children who fear an uncontrolled animal with teeth and claws are behaving with reason. Your daughter is on her way to managing her fears, and involving her in a slow, gradual plan to get more comfortable with the dog is a good idea. It sounds like you will stick up for your child; I commend you. The downside is a dog made unhappy by being isolated for normal periods of time; the upside is a child who learns that her family will respect and protect her and help her learn and grow. I hope the grandmother and wife will work with you on a plan.
posted by theora55 at 7:45 PM on June 10, 2021 [4 favorites]

LakeDream is saying something I tried to say, far less eloquently: this isn't (just) about dogs. This is about your child knowing that you will protect them, will support them, will listen to them, will empathize with them, will work with them to get them ready to face a big scary world. EVEN if the dog is not a threat, and EVEN if everybody but the kid knows that, and EVEN if everybody else in the room says it's silly to worry----they're worried, and you can help with that. It's not about the dog, it's about relationships.

If they were worried about drowning, even though the pool was shallow, would you let somebody push them in the pool? If you had friends who loved to swim, maybe slooowly, over many many visits, everybody could get comfortable with the pool. But I would regret shoving them in the pool (or letting somebody else do the same). A little dog who loves everybody and is licky and cute isn't a threat to you, the same way the kiddy pool isn't a threat to you; but you're not the person who's scared. If they were scared of heights, would you let somebody press their face to the window of a high-rise?
posted by adekllny at 8:07 AM on June 16, 2021 [1 favorite]

One of my favorite roommates had endured a dog bite injury from a German shepherd at a very young age (less than ten). She was on wonderful terms with my own dog, but still fearful, then later “faced her fears,” became a veterinarian, and adopted two German-shepherd type dogs. (This is in her mid/late twenties, she is an amazing person and a great example of the ability of a person to complete a 180/360)

With dogs - they are incredibly commonplace. In theory, becoming more common. In socializing, it may be as valuable as desensitizing your daughter to say, a school bus, a dining room, or any other common social engagement or approach (to slightly objectify the dog - it’s also important for children to know these are living/sentient beings).

Was she particularly afraid of the Havy? Does she show apprehension toward larger, calmer dogs like an old Labrador, etc? Do smaller or extra large dogs give her the creeps? Do slow, intentionally moving dogs not bother her? Try to start picking up the minutiae of behaviors or features disrupting her interactions with these animals.

If she has any leniency, it may be totally worth gradually introducing her to very large parks (where dogs may be walking the perimeter), and slowly increasing her tolerance to their presence. If you'd really like to get into it, I'm sure a local CGC (Canine Good Citizenship) agency or even a caregiving home might welcome a guest to observe or shadow therapy dogs without charge- Shadowing a therapy dog, watching the dog interact with patients, can completely change or at least partially change the perception of a person nervous or frightened of dogs. If your wife is into CBT, she may even know someone with a 'bombproof'/hyper-socialized dog, who could act as a guest, now and then.



To be fair: No, you’re not being oversensitive. Dogs and children should be conscious around one another, until they formally meet (we are not in the 60s, often for many good reasons) - in theory, most people should socialize a dog so it never does something like that (a dog should never run and play-jump into a child’s face - that has so many poor connotations written all over it), without encouragement or knowing the child, first.

That’s completely not her fault, it isn’t the dog’s fault, either. (And in kindness, it’s probably your mother’s companion, who is a primary chiller and roommate in her apartment. Most older folks with dogs do not need to do intensive training, they usually would like slightly extra company, with little outside excursions - especially for a companion type dog, like a Havanese)


I don’t find your sensitivity to be completely without reason, however: it might be super valuable to recognize dogs as an integral part of most of society.

Without introduction, this may be frustrating or much more complex for your daughter, later, when she’s in a bar, or on a bus, or hiking, and suddenly 2-5 dogs appear. Even moreso, when she may be interested in a partner, and suddenly the partner says, “Well, I’ve had a dog for fifteen years, and I’m sorry, but I’m not leaving the dog.”
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:32 PM on June 17, 2021