Deciding on Solar Panels
June 2, 2021 9:07 AM Subscribe
Is it worth it to buy solar panels for my house?
We live in southern California. My wife and I have been talking about getting solar panels on our roof. I hear how it drastically reduces your electric bill. That said I'm trying to figure out how much you really save in the long term. Let's say you spend 20K for the panels(our house is 1650 sq ft). If you average $200 a month on your electric bill and the solar cuts your bills in half...maybe better...it would still take years to recoup the money and then you have to consider that the panels last 20-30 years and then you'll probably need new ones. So I don't know...is it really worth it? I'd love to hear your experience and or opinions on solar. Thanks!
We live in southern California. My wife and I have been talking about getting solar panels on our roof. I hear how it drastically reduces your electric bill. That said I'm trying to figure out how much you really save in the long term. Let's say you spend 20K for the panels(our house is 1650 sq ft). If you average $200 a month on your electric bill and the solar cuts your bills in half...maybe better...it would still take years to recoup the money and then you have to consider that the panels last 20-30 years and then you'll probably need new ones. So I don't know...is it really worth it? I'd love to hear your experience and or opinions on solar. Thanks!
The other big things to factor in: a) how much value does it add to your home; b) how long you intend to live in it; c) what kind of federal / state / local tax credits are available and how well do they align with your current tax liability; d) whether you can receive credits on your utility bill through net metering (i.e. sending excess electricity into the grid).
The payment models that don't make sense, at least from my perspective, are ones offered by some solar installers where you pay little or nothing up front and sign up for a big long-term loan. Drawing on existing equity through a refinance or HELOC might make sense. If you already use an accountant or tax planner then you should talk to them; if you don't, it might be worth paying for their time to find out the best way to structure things to make the most of the current incentives.
posted by holgate at 9:19 AM on June 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
The payment models that don't make sense, at least from my perspective, are ones offered by some solar installers where you pay little or nothing up front and sign up for a big long-term loan. Drawing on existing equity through a refinance or HELOC might make sense. If you already use an accountant or tax planner then you should talk to them; if you don't, it might be worth paying for their time to find out the best way to structure things to make the most of the current incentives.
posted by holgate at 9:19 AM on June 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
I have a number of friends in So Cal who have done solar and it eliminated their entire bill, or very close to it. So I do think it's worth talking to some installers to first get a better sense of how much of your bill would be covered, and then you can do more specific math. Beyond that, I think you're looking at it the right way. We have investigated it several times, and for us the math has never really worked out despite the high cost of electricity in our area. The install costs we've been quoted have all been high enough that it would take us at least 10 years to recoup the upfront cost, and we aren't willing to gamble that we'd even be in the house that long (or that the solar panels would add enough value at resale to be worth it). But I know other people who found it to be a slam dunk. A lot of it is going to come down to the specifics of your house, location, energy cost, and how long you plan to stay there. The more of those you can get specific on, the better decision you can make.
posted by primethyme at 9:20 AM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by primethyme at 9:20 AM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
When I had solar panels installed, the installer did an assessment and gave me a proposal that provided a cost analysis based on my energy use, roof aspect and an estimate of the energy production.
Yeah, Google's Project Sunroof does a decent approximation of what you could get from your home, and the professionals use something with similar data that can instantly tell you how many panels make sense and where they should go.
posted by holgate at 9:22 AM on June 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
Yeah, Google's Project Sunroof does a decent approximation of what you could get from your home, and the professionals use something with similar data that can instantly tell you how many panels make sense and where they should go.
posted by holgate at 9:22 AM on June 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
You can also use Energy Sage that will run these calculations and allow you to set up bids from solar companies.
posted by bove at 9:24 AM on June 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by bove at 9:24 AM on June 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
My parents live in the Southwest and have solar panels, and it basically eliminates their electricity bill (I think they pay $7 on average per month - more in the winter and nothing in the summer). That said, the house they bought already had the panels installed. I would have a few solar companies out for some estimates: they can probably work up a financial cost-benefit analysis based on the cost of the panels, the panels' output, and your current electric bills. I believe you'd also want to consider how old your roof is/how long until you'll need a new roof, and how much the panels would add in terms of resale value (if you plan to sell your house in the next 20 years or so).
posted by ClaireBear at 9:47 AM on June 2, 2021
posted by ClaireBear at 9:47 AM on June 2, 2021
You'll want an installation estimate for sure, but if you're able to generate more than you use then in practical terms you're just replacing your electric bill with the solar panel loan payments. The real savings come after the panels are paid off, which is a long-haul calculation you'll have to make. Certain municipalities (and companies!) have various tax and subsidy programs you can take advantage of, too. We got a free new roof out of the deal!
(Also the panels might come with an awesome emergency shut off switch which looks like the ghost containment grid from Ghostbusters and tempts me.)
posted by greenland at 9:56 AM on June 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
(Also the panels might come with an awesome emergency shut off switch which looks like the ghost containment grid from Ghostbusters and tempts me.)
posted by greenland at 9:56 AM on June 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm currently in upstate NY in an area where the sun does not shine for weeks on end. Solar panels abound! They are way more common here than they are down in sunny Georgia where I used to live. I'm in university town full of highly-educated homeowners capable of doing the research and the math to see if, even in the cold grey north, solar panels are worth it.
posted by mareli at 10:00 AM on June 2, 2021
posted by mareli at 10:00 AM on June 2, 2021
We had panels installed in 2016 on our house in the (not very sunny) Midwest and I heartily agree with those above who said that you should be asking these questions of the solar installers who you invite to give you estimates.
A lot (a WHOLE FREAKING LOT) of this depends on state and local regulations on residential solar: like, can you sell excess power back to the utility? At what rate? How much power? What tax incentives are in place now? Might be in place in two years? Might expire in two years?
Any solar installer who can't give you a detailed breakdown of a) how much power the panels they install will generate, through the year (this part is important); b) how much of your usage those panels will offset; c) how much the installation will cost; d) how much of that cost is offset by tax incentives and other programs; and e) how many years until you've earned back the cost of the installation? Is not an installer you should be working with.
These are all solved problems. Good installers will explain them to you.
posted by spamloaf at 10:06 AM on June 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
A lot (a WHOLE FREAKING LOT) of this depends on state and local regulations on residential solar: like, can you sell excess power back to the utility? At what rate? How much power? What tax incentives are in place now? Might be in place in two years? Might expire in two years?
Any solar installer who can't give you a detailed breakdown of a) how much power the panels they install will generate, through the year (this part is important); b) how much of your usage those panels will offset; c) how much the installation will cost; d) how much of that cost is offset by tax incentives and other programs; and e) how many years until you've earned back the cost of the installation? Is not an installer you should be working with.
These are all solved problems. Good installers will explain them to you.
posted by spamloaf at 10:06 AM on June 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
Years ago when all the solar salesman were pounding the streets of our neighborhood, they reluctantly admitted to me when I mentioned the Diet & Watson factory burning to the ground nearby that it did tend to mess up their sales pitch.
I have also seen solar panels go up on some houses in this town and then come down later. However, I didn't stop by to ask the owners why.
These two points are relevant but granted not decisive.
posted by forthright at 10:07 AM on June 2, 2021
I have also seen solar panels go up on some houses in this town and then come down later. However, I didn't stop by to ask the owners why.
These two points are relevant but granted not decisive.
posted by forthright at 10:07 AM on June 2, 2021
Any competent installer will be able to do an ROI analysis for your home, and a good one will provide multiple possible solutions based on your house and your requirements. My ROI was calculated at 14 years, but given system performance over the last three years I am on track to a NINE year payback term instead.
1) first, make sure your insulation is adequate. Adding new insulation is generally inexpensive and almost always worth it -- my 1959 house (N.Cal) didn't have anything in the walls, so the west-facing surfaces became radiators in the afternoons. One day of work from an insulation company made a HUGE difference.
2) as you are in California, you may have aluminum-framed single-pane glass windows. If you do, consider replacing them. In my case this also made a huge difference in my utility bills, as well as improving the interior environment.
3) consider the age of your roof; as noted above replacing roof materials if there's solar on top is a pain in the ass and expensive so you don't want to do it any time you don't have to. In my case I had a new roof put on two years before installing solar, so they'll both age at basically the same rate.
4) solar panels don't really "fail" due to age, they just get less efficient. High-quality solar panels will remain "sufficiently functional" that you can keep them practically forever if you want to. My solar panels are guaranteed to be 92% functional after 25 years, so I may never replace them unless there's a great deal when I next redo my roof (hell, I may be dead by then anyway).
5) consider your utilities -- I still have a gas-fired furnace and water heater, but otherwise my house is entirely electric. Anything electric can be offset by solar, and thereafter becomes practically free to operate. My gas-fired furnace now makes me angry every time I see it.
6) in my 1959 house, I pay $10/month for electricity, which is entirely due to taxes and fees. I have a dinky 9-panel array, and it more than covers all of my electrical usage for the year. I know this is true because my annual "true-up" was on my power bill this month, where I get a chart covering the past year.
7) the federal tax credit is starting to expire, so if you think you might ever want solar you should get on it now rather than later!
8) some solar installers use standardized systems (small/medium/large). I suggest NOT using one of those; it's more efficient to design a system specifically for your particular house and needs.
9) a competent installer will only put panels on certain areas of your roof, IF you are in an area with competent building authorities. For example, my (competent) fire department needs access to the centerline of my roof for firefighting purposes, so panels cannot be installed there by law (building code). If your local building authorities are morons then you may want to check with more competent jurisdictions regarding installation geometry, but a competent installer will already know this anyway and can adjust the installation if you ask.
10) unless you have a battery array your solar system WILL NOT give you power in an outage -- this is because they install special cutouts that sense a grid outage and immediately cut power. This sounds stupid, but is extremely important -- if they didn't do this the solar arrays in a neighborhood could electrocute the linemen working to bring the grid back online. Linemen need to be able to know that they're not gonna get fried if the skies suddenly clear.
Finally, be very careful if you're considering solar-thermal heating -- in most parts of the country it's now more efficient to install PV and use electricity for heating instead. I didn't believe that, but I've now seen a couple of presentations on that point (including by solar-thermal installers) and I'm a believer. There are still situations where solar-thermal can make a difference (like in pool heating), but for general use it doesn't seem to make much sense for most people any more, using that roof space for PV is more effective. People around me (N. Cal) have been tearing down solar-thermal installations to replace them with PV.
posted by aramaic at 10:22 AM on June 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
1) first, make sure your insulation is adequate. Adding new insulation is generally inexpensive and almost always worth it -- my 1959 house (N.Cal) didn't have anything in the walls, so the west-facing surfaces became radiators in the afternoons. One day of work from an insulation company made a HUGE difference.
2) as you are in California, you may have aluminum-framed single-pane glass windows. If you do, consider replacing them. In my case this also made a huge difference in my utility bills, as well as improving the interior environment.
3) consider the age of your roof; as noted above replacing roof materials if there's solar on top is a pain in the ass and expensive so you don't want to do it any time you don't have to. In my case I had a new roof put on two years before installing solar, so they'll both age at basically the same rate.
4) solar panels don't really "fail" due to age, they just get less efficient. High-quality solar panels will remain "sufficiently functional" that you can keep them practically forever if you want to. My solar panels are guaranteed to be 92% functional after 25 years, so I may never replace them unless there's a great deal when I next redo my roof (hell, I may be dead by then anyway).
5) consider your utilities -- I still have a gas-fired furnace and water heater, but otherwise my house is entirely electric. Anything electric can be offset by solar, and thereafter becomes practically free to operate. My gas-fired furnace now makes me angry every time I see it.
6) in my 1959 house, I pay $10/month for electricity, which is entirely due to taxes and fees. I have a dinky 9-panel array, and it more than covers all of my electrical usage for the year. I know this is true because my annual "true-up" was on my power bill this month, where I get a chart covering the past year.
7) the federal tax credit is starting to expire, so if you think you might ever want solar you should get on it now rather than later!
8) some solar installers use standardized systems (small/medium/large). I suggest NOT using one of those; it's more efficient to design a system specifically for your particular house and needs.
9) a competent installer will only put panels on certain areas of your roof, IF you are in an area with competent building authorities. For example, my (competent) fire department needs access to the centerline of my roof for firefighting purposes, so panels cannot be installed there by law (building code). If your local building authorities are morons then you may want to check with more competent jurisdictions regarding installation geometry, but a competent installer will already know this anyway and can adjust the installation if you ask.
10) unless you have a battery array your solar system WILL NOT give you power in an outage -- this is because they install special cutouts that sense a grid outage and immediately cut power. This sounds stupid, but is extremely important -- if they didn't do this the solar arrays in a neighborhood could electrocute the linemen working to bring the grid back online. Linemen need to be able to know that they're not gonna get fried if the skies suddenly clear.
Finally, be very careful if you're considering solar-thermal heating -- in most parts of the country it's now more efficient to install PV and use electricity for heating instead. I didn't believe that, but I've now seen a couple of presentations on that point (including by solar-thermal installers) and I'm a believer. There are still situations where solar-thermal can make a difference (like in pool heating), but for general use it doesn't seem to make much sense for most people any more, using that roof space for PV is more effective. People around me (N. Cal) have been tearing down solar-thermal installations to replace them with PV.
posted by aramaic at 10:22 AM on June 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
As a general FYI, the codes in most or all of Southern California and probably most of the US are generally predicated on all your generated solar going into the grid. You use the grid just like everybody else, and you get a credit for the solar you put in. You are basically running a tiny generation franchise, with most of the startup costs coming out of your pocket, and you don't get paid if you generate too much as far as I know.
The lights don't stay on when the grid goes down. You don't power your home from your own solar panels - among other things, that juice is too dirty and fickle to use straight from the source, and while battery banking is now possible today in ways it was not a few years ago, the kind of bank you'd still require for uninterrupted whole-house usage would be dangerous, in terms of concentrating that much battery in one residential space*.
All the subsidies and tax breaks are written on this premise. Everyone I know in LA County with a full home solar deployment pays something less than $20 in unavoidable fees every month but rarely/never actually pays for their usage once the credits are applied. For those who had the install done on their watch, they were given very accurate analyses of what they would be capable of generating (granted, this is a lot easier in SoCal because fickle weather is a very modest problem) and the lifetime of the equipment. The cost (and weight) of solar panels drops by the second, and efficiency/performance improves at the same rate, so I think a lot of people with older systems were kind of set up to let the whole thing fail and be replaced as one, and I'm not sure that's necessarily true anymore.
*I think you may now be allowed to route through something like a Tesla Powerwall or household battery bank on the way to the grid for some self-storage - you'd have to research that to be sure, I'm almost certain the subsidies can't be used for that part of the investment, and that would somewhat reduce the amount you ultimately sold into the grid. If you wanted to build your own home-rolled battery bank and not go to the grid, you'd only need a couple of cheap 100-300w panels to fill those banks (plus appropriate-grade charge controllers to get it into the batteries, and inverters for any AC use) unless you were planning to somehow store and maintain tens of thousands of dollars in batteries without asploding them, that's a very different premise than the kind of "home solar" most people are thinking of. (And now you're putting whatever stuff you want to run and your expensive batteries at the mercy of your charge controller(s) and inverter(s).)
posted by Lyn Never at 10:41 AM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
The lights don't stay on when the grid goes down. You don't power your home from your own solar panels - among other things, that juice is too dirty and fickle to use straight from the source, and while battery banking is now possible today in ways it was not a few years ago, the kind of bank you'd still require for uninterrupted whole-house usage would be dangerous, in terms of concentrating that much battery in one residential space*.
All the subsidies and tax breaks are written on this premise. Everyone I know in LA County with a full home solar deployment pays something less than $20 in unavoidable fees every month but rarely/never actually pays for their usage once the credits are applied. For those who had the install done on their watch, they were given very accurate analyses of what they would be capable of generating (granted, this is a lot easier in SoCal because fickle weather is a very modest problem) and the lifetime of the equipment. The cost (and weight) of solar panels drops by the second, and efficiency/performance improves at the same rate, so I think a lot of people with older systems were kind of set up to let the whole thing fail and be replaced as one, and I'm not sure that's necessarily true anymore.
*I think you may now be allowed to route through something like a Tesla Powerwall or household battery bank on the way to the grid for some self-storage - you'd have to research that to be sure, I'm almost certain the subsidies can't be used for that part of the investment, and that would somewhat reduce the amount you ultimately sold into the grid. If you wanted to build your own home-rolled battery bank and not go to the grid, you'd only need a couple of cheap 100-300w panels to fill those banks (plus appropriate-grade charge controllers to get it into the batteries, and inverters for any AC use) unless you were planning to somehow store and maintain tens of thousands of dollars in batteries without asploding them, that's a very different premise than the kind of "home solar" most people are thinking of. (And now you're putting whatever stuff you want to run and your expensive batteries at the mercy of your charge controller(s) and inverter(s).)
posted by Lyn Never at 10:41 AM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I had solar installed on a house in southern California five or so years ago. A few thoughts:
-return on investment was about 5-6 years (~$20k, or about $12k after tax rebates, and saved about $2,400 a year on electricity).
-we purchased the system. I would not have "leased" or done any arrangement other than buying. I have never heard anyone that was happy with a lease or other arrangement.
-we used the AC a lot more once we had solar (still saving the $2,400 per year). I enjoyed living in a cooler house.
-its hard to tell if we got more interest/higher sales price for our house when we sold it as a result of having solar.
posted by bruinfan at 10:45 AM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
-return on investment was about 5-6 years (~$20k, or about $12k after tax rebates, and saved about $2,400 a year on electricity).
-we purchased the system. I would not have "leased" or done any arrangement other than buying. I have never heard anyone that was happy with a lease or other arrangement.
-we used the AC a lot more once we had solar (still saving the $2,400 per year). I enjoyed living in a cooler house.
-its hard to tell if we got more interest/higher sales price for our house when we sold it as a result of having solar.
posted by bruinfan at 10:45 AM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I want to reiterate that you need to be very very careful with the salespeople. Vivint has had to settle with multiple state AGs for deceptive practices, I believe. Back in the day, SolarCity got tons of complaints.
posted by praemunire at 12:20 PM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 12:20 PM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Adding in here, as I had panels installed (in NJ) in 2009. NJ had/has some of the best SREC market conditions, so I got paid back on that very quickly. Yet, even without the SREC, my electricity bill has definitely added to the payback. Panels appear as efficient as they were in 2009, based on the monthly generation I monitor.
Also, n'th the advice to NOT lease. Buy outright, get the Fed credit, and any local/state credits you may get.
I have all electric (no gas, so electric stove, water heater, dryer), and a decent sized house (2,000+ sq ft). Also an above ground pool and a koi pond. My highest bills are in the winter (around $250, (down from close to 600-700/month prior), and summer months I sometimes actually get a credit back.
If you are staying in your house for close to the payback period, then yes, worth it. I can't say if panels will get a bump up in selling price, though. Maybe as everyone heads towards being more environmentally conscious, but it may be a deciding factor between two equal houses of someone buying yours.
However, I would make the decision on the payback period solely, and if you'll be there to realize it. I found it very worthwhile.
posted by rich at 12:30 PM on June 2, 2021
Also, n'th the advice to NOT lease. Buy outright, get the Fed credit, and any local/state credits you may get.
I have all electric (no gas, so electric stove, water heater, dryer), and a decent sized house (2,000+ sq ft). Also an above ground pool and a koi pond. My highest bills are in the winter (around $250, (down from close to 600-700/month prior), and summer months I sometimes actually get a credit back.
If you are staying in your house for close to the payback period, then yes, worth it. I can't say if panels will get a bump up in selling price, though. Maybe as everyone heads towards being more environmentally conscious, but it may be a deciding factor between two equal houses of someone buying yours.
However, I would make the decision on the payback period solely, and if you'll be there to realize it. I found it very worthwhile.
posted by rich at 12:30 PM on June 2, 2021
I think there's a psychological component that's important. People want to feel they have some independence, that they're not just consuming energy, and that if the grid were to go down they'd still be able to function after a fashion. It has to make economic sense, but it doesn't just have to.
I was at a meeting, years back, to discuss putting solar panels in remote oilfield locations to avoid the cost of running power lines. As the meeting went on it became apparent that everyone who attended was specifically there to see if they could install a system on their house. There's something about the idea of your own generating system that's very appealing.
I'd also look into zoning laws. I live in an area which was re-zoned from residential to high-density, and there's a ten storey condo building blocking the sun on my roof during the hottest parts of the day. If that wasn't so I'd have solar. In some areas you can't block someone's sunlight without some kind of financial deal. That's not the case everywhere.
Roof repairs are a problem, but there are systems on the market which replace a section of the roof. You could also get a metal roof, which is the sane way to go. I know of a number of metal roofs over forty years old, and one in excess of 150. Shingles degrade, and in my opinion they're a bad idea.
A final point: someone mentions a factory burning down because the firemen couldn't go on the roof? The fire chief said that solar panels are dangerous because they can't be shut off. That's absolutely true ... sort of.
The same is true of electric cars, and we're dealing with that, and firemen will also go into a house which has electricity and put out a fire. I'd assume that firemen are protected against electricity to some extent, being covered in waterproof clothing and wearing heavy boots, because it's been a problem for over a century. If they're not I can't see them ever going near a burning building.
The roof might collapse from the weight of solar panels? I suspect that an engineering analysis was done to see if the roof could take the weight. People who run large buildings are very aware of this sort of issue, because it's their job.
The point that other light sources might generate power ... a flashlight or a streetlight shining on a solar panel might generate enough power to electrocute someone? Was someone on drugs?
I can't believe this didn't result in a massive lawsuit. it sounds to me as though a building burned down because someone was either grossly incompetent or had a serious hate on for solar installations.
The idea that firemen couldn't move around between solar panels ... these are the same guys who'll dash into a burning house to save a cat, right? (I have a friend ...)
In any case, this is why you have structural engineers, shutoff switches, and insurance. It's also why my in-laws put their solar arrays on the ground beside their house. They had room and it was cheaper.
I'd say - as almost everyone else has done - get a proper cost breakdown, and consider how nice it would be to make your own power. Plants collect about 1/30,000 of the solar energy hitting the Earth. I think people should get in on that.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 12:45 PM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I was at a meeting, years back, to discuss putting solar panels in remote oilfield locations to avoid the cost of running power lines. As the meeting went on it became apparent that everyone who attended was specifically there to see if they could install a system on their house. There's something about the idea of your own generating system that's very appealing.
I'd also look into zoning laws. I live in an area which was re-zoned from residential to high-density, and there's a ten storey condo building blocking the sun on my roof during the hottest parts of the day. If that wasn't so I'd have solar. In some areas you can't block someone's sunlight without some kind of financial deal. That's not the case everywhere.
Roof repairs are a problem, but there are systems on the market which replace a section of the roof. You could also get a metal roof, which is the sane way to go. I know of a number of metal roofs over forty years old, and one in excess of 150. Shingles degrade, and in my opinion they're a bad idea.
A final point: someone mentions a factory burning down because the firemen couldn't go on the roof? The fire chief said that solar panels are dangerous because they can't be shut off. That's absolutely true ... sort of.
The same is true of electric cars, and we're dealing with that, and firemen will also go into a house which has electricity and put out a fire. I'd assume that firemen are protected against electricity to some extent, being covered in waterproof clothing and wearing heavy boots, because it's been a problem for over a century. If they're not I can't see them ever going near a burning building.
The roof might collapse from the weight of solar panels? I suspect that an engineering analysis was done to see if the roof could take the weight. People who run large buildings are very aware of this sort of issue, because it's their job.
The point that other light sources might generate power ... a flashlight or a streetlight shining on a solar panel might generate enough power to electrocute someone? Was someone on drugs?
I can't believe this didn't result in a massive lawsuit. it sounds to me as though a building burned down because someone was either grossly incompetent or had a serious hate on for solar installations.
The idea that firemen couldn't move around between solar panels ... these are the same guys who'll dash into a burning house to save a cat, right? (I have a friend ...)
In any case, this is why you have structural engineers, shutoff switches, and insurance. It's also why my in-laws put their solar arrays on the ground beside their house. They had room and it was cheaper.
I'd say - as almost everyone else has done - get a proper cost breakdown, and consider how nice it would be to make your own power. Plants collect about 1/30,000 of the solar energy hitting the Earth. I think people should get in on that.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 12:45 PM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
As others have said, part of the solar person's job is to give you spreadsheet with what your payoff will look like. The skeevy ones will also do the "if you sign up right now, we can give you [X] off". If they do that, thank them for the spreadsheet and talk to someone else, who will give you a similar quote.
We had one of the high pressure people tell us it didn't make sense for us, my wife said "let's do it anyway as signalling", so we did, and we should have gotten more, because we also promptly got an electric car and switched to electric HVAC (from gas heating).
But as a long-term thing: If you're gonna stay connected to the grid, it will always be cheaper to set up big installations than one residential roof at a time, and the power companies are gonna try to structure things so that you're always paying for grid infrastructure. What makes residential solar worthwhile is the various subsidy structures, and the question is how long those are gonna stay useful and in play. PG&E keeps shuffling around the plans for electric, currently our cheap electricity is midnight to 3PM, which means that we get say 3-4 hours of summertime use to pay back (and we try to get the house cool/warm before late afternoon and evening).
I think if you're doing it for economic reasons, and are gonna stay connected to the grid, buy stock in a company doing large scale solar. If you're doing it for social signalling, it's not that expensive a way to make a statement.
posted by straw at 12:53 PM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
We had one of the high pressure people tell us it didn't make sense for us, my wife said "let's do it anyway as signalling", so we did, and we should have gotten more, because we also promptly got an electric car and switched to electric HVAC (from gas heating).
But as a long-term thing: If you're gonna stay connected to the grid, it will always be cheaper to set up big installations than one residential roof at a time, and the power companies are gonna try to structure things so that you're always paying for grid infrastructure. What makes residential solar worthwhile is the various subsidy structures, and the question is how long those are gonna stay useful and in play. PG&E keeps shuffling around the plans for electric, currently our cheap electricity is midnight to 3PM, which means that we get say 3-4 hours of summertime use to pay back (and we try to get the house cool/warm before late afternoon and evening).
I think if you're doing it for economic reasons, and are gonna stay connected to the grid, buy stock in a company doing large scale solar. If you're doing it for social signalling, it's not that expensive a way to make a statement.
posted by straw at 12:53 PM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I can't say if panels will get a bump up in selling price, though
If the panels are more than a few years old, I'd expect them to be a drag on the price, as outdated technology it will be expensive to replace.
posted by praemunire at 12:58 PM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
If the panels are more than a few years old, I'd expect them to be a drag on the price, as outdated technology it will be expensive to replace.
posted by praemunire at 12:58 PM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I put up a system in 2017, purchased outright, from SunRun through a promotion at Costco.
My break even point is after 5-6 years and I’m loving it. I’m in the suburbs of Boston.
My numbers are similar to Bruinfan above. $20k stated cost, $12k out of pocket after federal, state, and Costco incentives. I save about $1k/year on electricity bills and earn $1K/year in SRECs.
The capacity of my system was based on historical energy use. Two years after the panels went up, my aging HVAC system failed and the new furnace and aircon are so much more efficient that I’ve built up a huge credit on my electricity bill. Just bought an electric car and am excited to power it on sunshine.
Finally, my teenagers are terrified of living in the climate change future. Since I’m financially able to do some concrete things to move the needle in the right direction I am happy to do it.
posted by Sublimity at 1:36 PM on June 2, 2021
My break even point is after 5-6 years and I’m loving it. I’m in the suburbs of Boston.
My numbers are similar to Bruinfan above. $20k stated cost, $12k out of pocket after federal, state, and Costco incentives. I save about $1k/year on electricity bills and earn $1K/year in SRECs.
The capacity of my system was based on historical energy use. Two years after the panels went up, my aging HVAC system failed and the new furnace and aircon are so much more efficient that I’ve built up a huge credit on my electricity bill. Just bought an electric car and am excited to power it on sunshine.
Finally, my teenagers are terrified of living in the climate change future. Since I’m financially able to do some concrete things to move the needle in the right direction I am happy to do it.
posted by Sublimity at 1:36 PM on June 2, 2021
many many MANY smart comments above. I'm just adding my $0.02 in case you get all the way down here and you're still not sure:
(1) My power company paid a $0.60/W rebate up to ~$5,000 or so.
(2) My state stopped incentivizing solar about 1000 years ago, so that was no joy.
(3) Federal Tax Credit was 26% last year, 22% this year. So if you spend $20k you really only spent 78% of that, even if your power company or state don't help at all. So really $15,600 or so.
(4) If your power bill is $200/mo ($2,400/yr), then your savings ought to be around there; that depends on whether you get net-metering etc etc, but if you save most of that, then it's still money staying in your pocket.
(5) My bank thoughtfully offers me 0.4% return. If I think about the energy bill savings as return on an investment, I'm putting $15,600 in a CD (or something) and getting $2,000 (or so) back every year. 2/15.6 = is over 12% return, which is 30x what my bank offers me. Even if I can't recoup all $15,600 as additional value when I go to sell the house, I'm still way, way ahead.
Full disclosure, I drive Toyotas because I hate my mechanic (j/k Tommy). So the $10,000 I put into solar was basically the fund for my next car, just sitting there earning 0.4% (actually 0.01%, because I forgot to move it to the account that makes 0.4% but those $39/year were not going to get me to retirement any faster :/ ) So I have to start from scratch on my "save for the next car fund" because my current car fund is on my roof. But that money is also saving me $100+/month, just like that.
GOTCHAS: My power company does net-metering (yay) but they also charge you $15/month or so just to be tied to the grid (less yay). That's true even if you generate every watt you use. But I wasn't going to spend another $20,000 to get batteries and be off-grid, so that wasn't super-bad. The BIGGEST gotcha that the solar sellers had was the offer to set you up with a loan instead of paying cash (or securing your own financing). They say "hey, you can just pay us instead of the power company" and that's true EXCEPT they put like $4,000 worth of origination fees in the loan!!! "It's only 2% interest" is what they said, but then I did the math of $100/mo x 30 years = holy forking shirtballs, I'm paying for this twice! That's when the truth came out about the interest rate being 2% but the origination fee that gets rolled into the note being $4,000! I may not have perfect credit but I sure don't need to pay 4 grand to borrow 20.
Anyway, I apparently have a lot to say about this. If you want to dm about it, I'll keep an eye peeled for messages.
posted by adekllny at 5:30 PM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
(1) My power company paid a $0.60/W rebate up to ~$5,000 or so.
(2) My state stopped incentivizing solar about 1000 years ago, so that was no joy.
(3) Federal Tax Credit was 26% last year, 22% this year. So if you spend $20k you really only spent 78% of that, even if your power company or state don't help at all. So really $15,600 or so.
(4) If your power bill is $200/mo ($2,400/yr), then your savings ought to be around there; that depends on whether you get net-metering etc etc, but if you save most of that, then it's still money staying in your pocket.
(5) My bank thoughtfully offers me 0.4% return. If I think about the energy bill savings as return on an investment, I'm putting $15,600 in a CD (or something) and getting $2,000 (or so) back every year. 2/15.6 = is over 12% return, which is 30x what my bank offers me. Even if I can't recoup all $15,600 as additional value when I go to sell the house, I'm still way, way ahead.
Full disclosure, I drive Toyotas because I hate my mechanic (j/k Tommy). So the $10,000 I put into solar was basically the fund for my next car, just sitting there earning 0.4% (actually 0.01%, because I forgot to move it to the account that makes 0.4% but those $39/year were not going to get me to retirement any faster :/ ) So I have to start from scratch on my "save for the next car fund" because my current car fund is on my roof. But that money is also saving me $100+/month, just like that.
GOTCHAS: My power company does net-metering (yay) but they also charge you $15/month or so just to be tied to the grid (less yay). That's true even if you generate every watt you use. But I wasn't going to spend another $20,000 to get batteries and be off-grid, so that wasn't super-bad. The BIGGEST gotcha that the solar sellers had was the offer to set you up with a loan instead of paying cash (or securing your own financing). They say "hey, you can just pay us instead of the power company" and that's true EXCEPT they put like $4,000 worth of origination fees in the loan!!! "It's only 2% interest" is what they said, but then I did the math of $100/mo x 30 years = holy forking shirtballs, I'm paying for this twice! That's when the truth came out about the interest rate being 2% but the origination fee that gets rolled into the note being $4,000! I may not have perfect credit but I sure don't need to pay 4 grand to borrow 20.
Anyway, I apparently have a lot to say about this. If you want to dm about it, I'll keep an eye peeled for messages.
posted by adekllny at 5:30 PM on June 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
My bank thoughtfully offers me 0.4% return. If I think about the energy bill savings as return on an investment, I'm putting $15,600 in a CD (or something) and getting $2,000 (or so) back every year. 2/15.6 = is over 12% return, which is 30x what my bank offers me. Even if I can't recoup all $15,600 as additional value when I go to sell the house, I'm still way, way ahead.
You've bought a depreciating asset. With the cost of funding so low, you're basically doing fine just recovering the principal through the reduced electricity bills, which will obviously only take about eight years (to say nothing of more altruistic reasons to do it), but you are really exaggerating the "return." Your principal is losing value every minute, just like a car.
posted by praemunire at 7:28 PM on June 2, 2021
You've bought a depreciating asset. With the cost of funding so low, you're basically doing fine just recovering the principal through the reduced electricity bills, which will obviously only take about eight years (to say nothing of more altruistic reasons to do it), but you are really exaggerating the "return." Your principal is losing value every minute, just like a car.
posted by praemunire at 7:28 PM on June 2, 2021
I'm in normal, but in a weather free bit of norcal, so.
The previous owners of my house paid 19k or so for an array, and they specced it to suit two electric cars along with domestic use. I have gas CH, electric AC and my cars are not plug-ins, and, because I use less electricity than they imagined, I've almost always received a yearly NEM payback from the power company (based on price at the time of generation, not units of power - so I get more off peak units paid for if I generate a surplus in the peak afternoon time).
That improved markedly when our power company switched from PGE (who pay you wholesale rates for the surplus) to a local company (who pay retail).
I did have a microinverter fail. The company guarantees the system for something like 25 years, but didn't fix it until I reported it, so last year I undergenerated and paid a small amount for my power across the year.
What I would say is: check your local electricity provider and see what they offer. Wholesale rates: try to very slightly undergenerate compared with what you use, because you're saving at retail rates. Retail rates: pump it out, you should break even rapidly.
And as others have said, buy the system - leasing enriches the installer but not you. It should break even within ten years even with the reduced federal tax rebate, I would think, though if you sell the house in that time it may not add as much to your house value as it costs to install - if that matters to you, then check with a local realtor.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 10:25 PM on June 2, 2021
The previous owners of my house paid 19k or so for an array, and they specced it to suit two electric cars along with domestic use. I have gas CH, electric AC and my cars are not plug-ins, and, because I use less electricity than they imagined, I've almost always received a yearly NEM payback from the power company (based on price at the time of generation, not units of power - so I get more off peak units paid for if I generate a surplus in the peak afternoon time).
That improved markedly when our power company switched from PGE (who pay you wholesale rates for the surplus) to a local company (who pay retail).
I did have a microinverter fail. The company guarantees the system for something like 25 years, but didn't fix it until I reported it, so last year I undergenerated and paid a small amount for my power across the year.
What I would say is: check your local electricity provider and see what they offer. Wholesale rates: try to very slightly undergenerate compared with what you use, because you're saving at retail rates. Retail rates: pump it out, you should break even rapidly.
And as others have said, buy the system - leasing enriches the installer but not you. It should break even within ten years even with the reduced federal tax rebate, I would think, though if you sell the house in that time it may not add as much to your house value as it costs to install - if that matters to you, then check with a local realtor.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 10:25 PM on June 2, 2021
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Edited to add: I was also given options for differently sized systems, so you could choose a smaller, lower-cost system with the tradeoff that it produces less energy. I was given estimates for 2 system sizes that my roof could accommodate.
Editing again to add that you'll probably want to install new shingles before you get your panels, if you have asphalt ones (unless your roof is new). Otherwise it's expensive to remove the panels to redo the roof.
posted by bighappyhairydog at 9:14 AM on June 2, 2021 [5 favorites]