I feel helpless because it feels as if I’ll never catch up
May 11, 2021 1:33 AM Subscribe
Hi everyone, I’m looking for words of advice or reflection from people who’ve experienced the feeling of not being able to be as valuable/interesting as other people because you lost years of your life to something, e.g. mental illness. What follows isn’t the most 'higher self' account of my thoughts, but it is the narrative that runs through my head almost every waking moment – theoretically, I know it’s not ‘true’ and requires defusion but I just can’t seem to crack it. This community has always given me so many valuable thoughts to reflect on, and I really appreciate it!
I have been depressed on and off since I was 13ish (I’m 24 now) and socially anxious for much of this time. The mental health issues meant I didn’t have a strong friendship group, struggled to pursue hobbies or find passions, didn’t follow healthy lifestyle habits consistently and generally found myself not really living life. I always had my academic and career achievements – I’ve worked in policy and legal roles aimed at addressing social inequality for the last few years – but that was about all I had.
About a year and a half ago I ended an abusive relationship and finally got well enough to start putting myself out there socially, devoting time to my passions (poetry, philosophy, writing music, running) and generally living life. Now I find myself in situations where I am meeting lots of new people – and, shock horror, many of them are my age or younger but have been ‘living’ for much longer. That is, they’ve been fully engaging with the world and their passions, building social networks, etc. I love meeting these people and am glad to be doing things with them. I also hate meeting these people and come away from it feeling like a worthless shell of a human being who will never have as much to offer the world as they do. They’ve had so much time to grow and develop their skills and capabilities in relation to the things they care about. I’ve wasted all that time hating myself. Even starting now, it will take me years to get to the level they’re at, and then they’ll be even further ahead.
It feels like I have so much to do – develop a wider circle of friends, have more interesting experiences, develop my poetry performance and publishing practice, learn to play ukulele and sing better, learn to produce music better, develop a stock of interesting stories to tell people, become more open in social settings, find my place in the activist movements I’m a part of, learn to juggle better, learn to rock-climb better, develop a deeper understanding of anarchist theory, develop a consistent exercise practice, learn to identify edible weeds and local plants, learn to tie knots better, learn to love myself so I can love others – that’s the bare minimum to be the person I want to be and that many of these people are (this sounds like an exaggeration, but I literally know people who combine most of the above qualities). I can’t describe how crushing the weight of this feels. And on top of it all, even if I am able to pursue all these things at once, I still won’t be as good at them as others!
That’s really scary, because that means I have no value to contribute as a person in the kinds of contexts I want to be in. There is no role for me anywhere, because there’s always someone there who can do it better than me. That’s not to even mention the whole question of friendships and relationships – I am waiting for one of the people I’m dating to leave me for a girl we recently met who is better than me in all the above ways described. And I think he should, because why be with still occasionally depressed, prone to negative thinking and social anxiety me, when there are people out there who are the product of years of really living their lives, and have the requisite skills and foundations to show for it? I’m really embarrassed and upset by who I am and everything I’ve missed out on. I am trying to catch up and grow, but the person I want to be feels so far away that it’s just completely overwhelming and I find myself shutting down and wanting to give up. What can I do?
I have been depressed on and off since I was 13ish (I’m 24 now) and socially anxious for much of this time. The mental health issues meant I didn’t have a strong friendship group, struggled to pursue hobbies or find passions, didn’t follow healthy lifestyle habits consistently and generally found myself not really living life. I always had my academic and career achievements – I’ve worked in policy and legal roles aimed at addressing social inequality for the last few years – but that was about all I had.
About a year and a half ago I ended an abusive relationship and finally got well enough to start putting myself out there socially, devoting time to my passions (poetry, philosophy, writing music, running) and generally living life. Now I find myself in situations where I am meeting lots of new people – and, shock horror, many of them are my age or younger but have been ‘living’ for much longer. That is, they’ve been fully engaging with the world and their passions, building social networks, etc. I love meeting these people and am glad to be doing things with them. I also hate meeting these people and come away from it feeling like a worthless shell of a human being who will never have as much to offer the world as they do. They’ve had so much time to grow and develop their skills and capabilities in relation to the things they care about. I’ve wasted all that time hating myself. Even starting now, it will take me years to get to the level they’re at, and then they’ll be even further ahead.
It feels like I have so much to do – develop a wider circle of friends, have more interesting experiences, develop my poetry performance and publishing practice, learn to play ukulele and sing better, learn to produce music better, develop a stock of interesting stories to tell people, become more open in social settings, find my place in the activist movements I’m a part of, learn to juggle better, learn to rock-climb better, develop a deeper understanding of anarchist theory, develop a consistent exercise practice, learn to identify edible weeds and local plants, learn to tie knots better, learn to love myself so I can love others – that’s the bare minimum to be the person I want to be and that many of these people are (this sounds like an exaggeration, but I literally know people who combine most of the above qualities). I can’t describe how crushing the weight of this feels. And on top of it all, even if I am able to pursue all these things at once, I still won’t be as good at them as others!
That’s really scary, because that means I have no value to contribute as a person in the kinds of contexts I want to be in. There is no role for me anywhere, because there’s always someone there who can do it better than me. That’s not to even mention the whole question of friendships and relationships – I am waiting for one of the people I’m dating to leave me for a girl we recently met who is better than me in all the above ways described. And I think he should, because why be with still occasionally depressed, prone to negative thinking and social anxiety me, when there are people out there who are the product of years of really living their lives, and have the requisite skills and foundations to show for it? I’m really embarrassed and upset by who I am and everything I’ve missed out on. I am trying to catch up and grow, but the person I want to be feels so far away that it’s just completely overwhelming and I find myself shutting down and wanting to give up. What can I do?
While what you describe is something I've struggled with (and many I've been brave enough to ask) I've felt like this less and less as I age into my 40s, I feel like this is part of the worrying less as you age experience for many that is really great. That kind of perspective that life isn't a competition with a winner. It's more like a long festival where as long as you have a good time you've done good, and if you're still even there you're doing pretty decently. I know that's so much easier said than done, but there are ways to start feeling that to be more true. Your experiences can make you wiser than a lot of people who got a really easy run up top.
Some circles and subcultures and friendship groups and careers are far more competitive than others and massively exacerbate the "not good enough" feelings you describe. The kind of places where you feel like no one has your back, you're always proving yourself, and everyone's always proving themselves to you. Like every conversation starts as exciting but is also really exhausting. Lots of academic and legal areas (even, or sometimes particularly, human rightsy ones) are notorious for this need to always be selling ourself as "winning" and utterly brilliant when most people, intelligent as they are, are just kind of a bit tired or sad or angry if we were just allowed to truly admit it.
It's so normal to need a place where you don't feel like you're always fighting to be good enough. If you're lucky, this is friends or family who love you flaws and all. It can also come from somewhere lower key for a while, like a beginners jogging/yoga/tabletop gaming/bookclub/language etc club where people are willing to laugh at themselves for being kinda objectively bad but hey we're trying and having fun and we all appreciate the effort. Rather than seeking out the best places and people that push you and give you status, also make sure to seek out kind places and people too that make you feel welcome and supported and heard. Also try to read and watch things about kind people, not just crazy successful cool ones.
All the best.
posted by hotcoroner at 2:31 AM on May 11, 2021 [21 favorites]
Some circles and subcultures and friendship groups and careers are far more competitive than others and massively exacerbate the "not good enough" feelings you describe. The kind of places where you feel like no one has your back, you're always proving yourself, and everyone's always proving themselves to you. Like every conversation starts as exciting but is also really exhausting. Lots of academic and legal areas (even, or sometimes particularly, human rightsy ones) are notorious for this need to always be selling ourself as "winning" and utterly brilliant when most people, intelligent as they are, are just kind of a bit tired or sad or angry if we were just allowed to truly admit it.
It's so normal to need a place where you don't feel like you're always fighting to be good enough. If you're lucky, this is friends or family who love you flaws and all. It can also come from somewhere lower key for a while, like a beginners jogging/yoga/tabletop gaming/bookclub/language etc club where people are willing to laugh at themselves for being kinda objectively bad but hey we're trying and having fun and we all appreciate the effort. Rather than seeking out the best places and people that push you and give you status, also make sure to seek out kind places and people too that make you feel welcome and supported and heard. Also try to read and watch things about kind people, not just crazy successful cool ones.
All the best.
posted by hotcoroner at 2:31 AM on May 11, 2021 [21 favorites]
We all feel that way. There's always someone else who does more, is more fun, has accomplished goals we've never dreamed of. We can always think of things we'd like to do, ways in which we can be better.
It doesn't matter. Having aspirations and wanting to be better is what counts. I know a lot of people who don't seek to improve themselves, and many more who have accomplished something and then become satisfied and stopped.
Progress is small and slow, and aspirations are bigger. That's true for everyone. Most of the small things we take for granted are someone's life's work.
Your friends love you for some quality we don't really have a name for, not what you've done. People will date you for that, not because you can do something. People go after other people, not their accomplishments.
Wanting to accomplish things is essential to life, but it's for yourself. It has to be. The progress you make is for yourself, and can't be compared to anyone else. That's also the way it has to be.
A friend gave me a painting he did, because I admired it. It's not the Sistine chapel, but I still like it. He's happy he did it. After years of trying I can only juggle three balls, but I can juggle. Life is a process, not a score sheet.
You can write. That's not a trivial thing. And I bet your friends think more highly of you than you think. They always do.
Be patient. Don't beat yourself up. Don't stop learning, don't stop wanting to be better. I have no other suggestions, but I think those will do.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 2:40 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
It doesn't matter. Having aspirations and wanting to be better is what counts. I know a lot of people who don't seek to improve themselves, and many more who have accomplished something and then become satisfied and stopped.
Progress is small and slow, and aspirations are bigger. That's true for everyone. Most of the small things we take for granted are someone's life's work.
Your friends love you for some quality we don't really have a name for, not what you've done. People will date you for that, not because you can do something. People go after other people, not their accomplishments.
Wanting to accomplish things is essential to life, but it's for yourself. It has to be. The progress you make is for yourself, and can't be compared to anyone else. That's also the way it has to be.
A friend gave me a painting he did, because I admired it. It's not the Sistine chapel, but I still like it. He's happy he did it. After years of trying I can only juggle three balls, but I can juggle. Life is a process, not a score sheet.
You can write. That's not a trivial thing. And I bet your friends think more highly of you than you think. They always do.
Be patient. Don't beat yourself up. Don't stop learning, don't stop wanting to be better. I have no other suggestions, but I think those will do.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 2:40 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Have you considered reframing it as exciting that you are now finally finding the capacity to explore all of these things? Saying this as a trans person who has only just in the past few years been able to be my full self.
posted by Gymnopedist at 2:54 AM on May 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Gymnopedist at 2:54 AM on May 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
In the paragraph where you start "It feels like I have so much to do - " can you reflect deeply on how you would feel if you were the most accomplished of everyone you knew or knew of in all these skills and qualities?
posted by Quillcards at 3:03 AM on May 11, 2021
posted by Quillcards at 3:03 AM on May 11, 2021
I call this FOAHMO - fear of already having missed out. Not the fear that you might miss out or that you will miss out, but fear and regret about all the boats that have already long since sailed without you aboard them. I have a lot of similar feelings, in my case because I lost my entire childhood to family abuse and then most of my 20s to the profound mental illness that tends to follow being raised in a deeply abusive context.
I also have a friend who has a friend who is a corporate lawyer, a famous published fantasy author, and a parent. I would like to be a (more) published author myself at some point. 20yo me wanted that to have happened already by the age that I am now, but it hasn't, not least because of the fact that I didn't write for about five years in my 20s because I was too mentally ill. And even though I'm now comfortably back on the horse of that practice, I still have deep-seated self worth issues that make it hard to put my work and myself out there as proactively as I'd like. And when I get into a bad place I tend to ruminate on my friend's friend's achievements - how did they find the energy and wherewithal not just to achieve my own personal dream by their mid-20s, but also to grow and raise a child, and to succeed in a career that's more competitive and demanding than my own? And even though I know the answer is "because their early life was much more supportive and much less traumatic than mine was", it doesn't make me feel any better or any less inadequate in comparison.
Something that helps is to remember that life isn't a race or a competition. Sometimes I feel hopeless about the gap between the peaks of human achievement and what I actually feel like I might be able to do between now and death - but hopelessness only makes it even less likely that I'm going to make progress towards my goals, because I'm burning time lamenting what might have been rather than tackling the opportunities I still have. I'm not running against anyone (even my friend's friend), or against a clock. I've been getting into lifting & strength work the last few years, and I'm way more comfortable thinking about my life the way I do my strength goals - I want to get stronger than I am already, at a pace that's achievable for me. Not to be stronger than someone else, or to be the strongest person who ever lived - just stronger than I am now, slowly, over time.
I also know well enough by now that the idea I'd magically feel better about myself if I achieved my goals is a lie. When I hadn't published any fiction, I was fixated on the idea that if I could just place a story somewhere, anywhere, I'd feel better about myself. And then I placed a couple of stories and it still didn't stop me from thinking of myself as a worthless turd during low moments. I suspect the fantasy that achievement will somehow create self worth is similar to what Kate Harding described as the fantasy of being thin - like the idea if you're fat that losing weight will magically solve all your problems, if you have low self worth, the fantasy is that you'll suddenly feel welcome and accepted and valuable and like you belong if you could only just achieve whatever's on the next achievement horizon for you. I haven't cracked this problem myself either, but I've been through this cycle often enough to strongly suspect that the hole inside you that makes you feel this way isn't going to get filled up by external validation only, and that it's possible to figure out how to fill it from within without becoming a CEO or a PhD or a published writer or [insert achievement fantasy here].
posted by terretu at 3:39 AM on May 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
I also have a friend who has a friend who is a corporate lawyer, a famous published fantasy author, and a parent. I would like to be a (more) published author myself at some point. 20yo me wanted that to have happened already by the age that I am now, but it hasn't, not least because of the fact that I didn't write for about five years in my 20s because I was too mentally ill. And even though I'm now comfortably back on the horse of that practice, I still have deep-seated self worth issues that make it hard to put my work and myself out there as proactively as I'd like. And when I get into a bad place I tend to ruminate on my friend's friend's achievements - how did they find the energy and wherewithal not just to achieve my own personal dream by their mid-20s, but also to grow and raise a child, and to succeed in a career that's more competitive and demanding than my own? And even though I know the answer is "because their early life was much more supportive and much less traumatic than mine was", it doesn't make me feel any better or any less inadequate in comparison.
Something that helps is to remember that life isn't a race or a competition. Sometimes I feel hopeless about the gap between the peaks of human achievement and what I actually feel like I might be able to do between now and death - but hopelessness only makes it even less likely that I'm going to make progress towards my goals, because I'm burning time lamenting what might have been rather than tackling the opportunities I still have. I'm not running against anyone (even my friend's friend), or against a clock. I've been getting into lifting & strength work the last few years, and I'm way more comfortable thinking about my life the way I do my strength goals - I want to get stronger than I am already, at a pace that's achievable for me. Not to be stronger than someone else, or to be the strongest person who ever lived - just stronger than I am now, slowly, over time.
I also know well enough by now that the idea I'd magically feel better about myself if I achieved my goals is a lie. When I hadn't published any fiction, I was fixated on the idea that if I could just place a story somewhere, anywhere, I'd feel better about myself. And then I placed a couple of stories and it still didn't stop me from thinking of myself as a worthless turd during low moments. I suspect the fantasy that achievement will somehow create self worth is similar to what Kate Harding described as the fantasy of being thin - like the idea if you're fat that losing weight will magically solve all your problems, if you have low self worth, the fantasy is that you'll suddenly feel welcome and accepted and valuable and like you belong if you could only just achieve whatever's on the next achievement horizon for you. I haven't cracked this problem myself either, but I've been through this cycle often enough to strongly suspect that the hole inside you that makes you feel this way isn't going to get filled up by external validation only, and that it's possible to figure out how to fill it from within without becoming a CEO or a PhD or a published writer or [insert achievement fantasy here].
posted by terretu at 3:39 AM on May 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
It feels like I have so much to do [massive list of examples]
One of the most liberating experiences of my entire life happened on the day it first occurred to me that achievement is overrated.
Not useless, not pointless, not best avoided, none of that: just overrated. It really, really is.
We're acculturated from a very early age to see achievement as admirable, and the take-home message from that for far too many of us becomes that it's the only admirable thing, from which it follows that if we don't have enough of it we're worthless as human beings.
Well, I'm 59 years old now and I can't do any of the things in your massive list except maybe sing a bit and tie a few knots (seriously, you only need four to cover 99% of use cases: reef knot (including variants like shoelace bow and surgeon's knot), hitches, bowline/sheet bend, blood knot). But if anybody wants to make a serious case to me that I'm a worthless human being on that basis, I'll happily make a serious case to them that they can fuck right off.
All you really need to learn to do in order to have a perfectly satisfactory life is be kind. If somebody's been trying to convince you that you're worthless on the basis of some or other lack of achievement, they're just trying to deflect attention from their own miserable failure at being kind.
So, enough with this "worthless" nonsense. Breathe. Sleep. Drink. Eat. Love. Play. Celebrate. Mourn. Enjoy. Grieve. Learn. Practise. Wonder. Help. Embrace. Appreciate. Achievements - plural - will follow.
I’ve worked in policy and legal roles aimed at addressing social inequality for the last few years – but that was about all I had.
I haven't done that.
posted by flabdablet at 3:59 AM on May 11, 2021 [61 favorites]
One of the most liberating experiences of my entire life happened on the day it first occurred to me that achievement is overrated.
Not useless, not pointless, not best avoided, none of that: just overrated. It really, really is.
We're acculturated from a very early age to see achievement as admirable, and the take-home message from that for far too many of us becomes that it's the only admirable thing, from which it follows that if we don't have enough of it we're worthless as human beings.
Well, I'm 59 years old now and I can't do any of the things in your massive list except maybe sing a bit and tie a few knots (seriously, you only need four to cover 99% of use cases: reef knot (including variants like shoelace bow and surgeon's knot), hitches, bowline/sheet bend, blood knot). But if anybody wants to make a serious case to me that I'm a worthless human being on that basis, I'll happily make a serious case to them that they can fuck right off.
All you really need to learn to do in order to have a perfectly satisfactory life is be kind. If somebody's been trying to convince you that you're worthless on the basis of some or other lack of achievement, they're just trying to deflect attention from their own miserable failure at being kind.
So, enough with this "worthless" nonsense. Breathe. Sleep. Drink. Eat. Love. Play. Celebrate. Mourn. Enjoy. Grieve. Learn. Practise. Wonder. Help. Embrace. Appreciate. Achievements - plural - will follow.
I’ve worked in policy and legal roles aimed at addressing social inequality for the last few years – but that was about all I had.
I haven't done that.
posted by flabdablet at 3:59 AM on May 11, 2021 [61 favorites]
My first impulse was to write, oh no! there's so much more to contribute in terms of value rather than entertainment, just wait a couple of years, it will get clear enough.
But on closer inspection I found that I do in fact still sometimes struggle a bit with this too, even at my ripe old age of 36. One might think I should have made my peace with my own mediocricity by now -with new people, I can sometimes be downright aggressively dull and conventional just to manage expectations - but truth is, I do want my friends to think I'm amusing more often than not.
Sure, most people really don't pick their friends mostly for entertainment value or according to some objective measure of accomplishment. You will find friends - you probably have found some already - you won't lose just for not being at the top of your game/not all that much fun on occasion. There are other ways to satisfy a need for novelty and excitement - that's not what most people need friends for most. Once you've built a bit of history with someone, friendships tend to go deeper than that. You don't have to worry so much about people getting tired of you. You can feel safe in your relationships.
But sometimes that's not quite enough. One wants to feel admired, one wants to impress. That's fair enough! But those are ego needs, not social needs, and I sometimes find it useful to make the distinction. Your needs are your needs, and there's no point in denying them, but not all needs are equally urgent at all times; it sometimes helps to put things in perspective.
At any rate, I suspect your new friends already find you more interesting than you think. I mean, I'm sometimes bored with myself, but I assume it's due to excessive familiarity. I'm not a particularly secretive person, but there's quite a bit my friends don't necessarily know about me, because it just hasn't come up yet. So there's always the potential thrill of learning new things about someone! And how much greater that thrill in your case, since I could imagine, right now, due to your history, you aren't even all that familiar to yourself.
When I turned 30, I did a bit of personal accounting, as one does. I had just given up my dream of academia, my new bog-standard-office job was decidely unglamorous, I had no boyfriend, no kids, and no property. I had just moved back in with my parents. In this moment, what came to my mind, was the image of Alexander the Great, as described by Hans Gruber in "Die Hard": Alexander, seeing the breadth of his domain, weeping for there were no worlds left to conquer. And I thought, well, at least that's a problem I don't have.
You might find there are many problems that you, at least, don't have either at this very moment. Nothing duller than someone who's already all settled in their ways, all "been there, done that". One trap, you did not even have the chance to fall into yet!
The conventional idea is that, while charming in young people, a lack of experience is embarrassing in the old. Firstly, that doesn't really concern you, because 24 is plenty young. Secondly, I find that logic questionable anyway - if there is, as someone like Hesse might argue, "a magic at the core of every beginning", why should the magic be affected by the age of the person experiencing the beginning? Seems like "beginning" is the salient feature here, not age.
You are, right now, in a very magical phase of your life, venturing out in the world for the first time (it won't be the last time; "with every call of life, the heart must be ready to part and start again"). And people will sense that magic around you, and some will feel drawn to it, because it's invigorating, to be reminded of these calls of life. I mean, that's one reason why I like teaching - the curiosity of students, the hope, it rubs off on me.
All these things you might envy others for having already accumulated, maybe these people are just itching to leave them behind, to join you on that empty plain of new possibilities. Really, you should probably worry about being too magnetic for that reason, rather than not being magnetic enough.
posted by sohalt at 4:53 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
But on closer inspection I found that I do in fact still sometimes struggle a bit with this too, even at my ripe old age of 36. One might think I should have made my peace with my own mediocricity by now -with new people, I can sometimes be downright aggressively dull and conventional just to manage expectations - but truth is, I do want my friends to think I'm amusing more often than not.
Sure, most people really don't pick their friends mostly for entertainment value or according to some objective measure of accomplishment. You will find friends - you probably have found some already - you won't lose just for not being at the top of your game/not all that much fun on occasion. There are other ways to satisfy a need for novelty and excitement - that's not what most people need friends for most. Once you've built a bit of history with someone, friendships tend to go deeper than that. You don't have to worry so much about people getting tired of you. You can feel safe in your relationships.
But sometimes that's not quite enough. One wants to feel admired, one wants to impress. That's fair enough! But those are ego needs, not social needs, and I sometimes find it useful to make the distinction. Your needs are your needs, and there's no point in denying them, but not all needs are equally urgent at all times; it sometimes helps to put things in perspective.
At any rate, I suspect your new friends already find you more interesting than you think. I mean, I'm sometimes bored with myself, but I assume it's due to excessive familiarity. I'm not a particularly secretive person, but there's quite a bit my friends don't necessarily know about me, because it just hasn't come up yet. So there's always the potential thrill of learning new things about someone! And how much greater that thrill in your case, since I could imagine, right now, due to your history, you aren't even all that familiar to yourself.
When I turned 30, I did a bit of personal accounting, as one does. I had just given up my dream of academia, my new bog-standard-office job was decidely unglamorous, I had no boyfriend, no kids, and no property. I had just moved back in with my parents. In this moment, what came to my mind, was the image of Alexander the Great, as described by Hans Gruber in "Die Hard": Alexander, seeing the breadth of his domain, weeping for there were no worlds left to conquer. And I thought, well, at least that's a problem I don't have.
You might find there are many problems that you, at least, don't have either at this very moment. Nothing duller than someone who's already all settled in their ways, all "been there, done that". One trap, you did not even have the chance to fall into yet!
The conventional idea is that, while charming in young people, a lack of experience is embarrassing in the old. Firstly, that doesn't really concern you, because 24 is plenty young. Secondly, I find that logic questionable anyway - if there is, as someone like Hesse might argue, "a magic at the core of every beginning", why should the magic be affected by the age of the person experiencing the beginning? Seems like "beginning" is the salient feature here, not age.
You are, right now, in a very magical phase of your life, venturing out in the world for the first time (it won't be the last time; "with every call of life, the heart must be ready to part and start again"). And people will sense that magic around you, and some will feel drawn to it, because it's invigorating, to be reminded of these calls of life. I mean, that's one reason why I like teaching - the curiosity of students, the hope, it rubs off on me.
All these things you might envy others for having already accumulated, maybe these people are just itching to leave them behind, to join you on that empty plain of new possibilities. Really, you should probably worry about being too magnetic for that reason, rather than not being magnetic enough.
posted by sohalt at 4:53 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
I can't do any of the things in your massive list except maybe sing a bit and tie a few knots [...] But if anybody wants to make a serious case to me that I'm a worthless human being on that basis, I'll happily make a serious case to them that they can fuck right off.
This, I (approaching mid life) can do many things but very few are on OP's list. My family, friends and colleagues like me just fine. These are all hobbies. My decision to want to be friends with you would never hinge on whether you engage in one of more of these activities or on how proficient you are. Pursue activities that bring you joy, for the sake of getting that enjoyment, not because you think you should. If you approach them from that angle, your personal progress in an activity becomes the end goal, not a specific level of proficiency and the focus on 'catching up' is removed entirely.
posted by koahiatamadl at 5:05 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
This, I (approaching mid life) can do many things but very few are on OP's list. My family, friends and colleagues like me just fine. These are all hobbies. My decision to want to be friends with you would never hinge on whether you engage in one of more of these activities or on how proficient you are. Pursue activities that bring you joy, for the sake of getting that enjoyment, not because you think you should. If you approach them from that angle, your personal progress in an activity becomes the end goal, not a specific level of proficiency and the focus on 'catching up' is removed entirely.
posted by koahiatamadl at 5:05 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm 40, but I've been where you are, and I know lots of people in their 20s that feel the same way. One's 20s is really difficult!! One never feels like you're where one's supposed to be, ever, whether it's body-image, academia, relative happiness, etc. It's so so so common.
I think part of it stems from one's 20s now being accepted as a period of prolonged adolescence, where adolescence means "finishing school," "menial jobs," "on the parents' phone plan". That's nothing to be ashamed of: but where 30 years ago you would have been out of the house and on your own, an entire generation of 20 year olds are living with their parents and barely hanging on. If we calibrate our expectations for life against the patterns our boomer parents set, we're inevitably going to be disappointed...
I wouldn't expect you to start getting adult sea-legs until you're in your 30s, to be honest. Even if you did exactly what you were designed and "supposed" to do, if you live in America or Canada, you're likely feeling lost because you aren't where you thought you'd be. In one's 30s one realizes that no one is where they thought they'd be!
posted by Dressed to Kill at 5:07 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think part of it stems from one's 20s now being accepted as a period of prolonged adolescence, where adolescence means "finishing school," "menial jobs," "on the parents' phone plan". That's nothing to be ashamed of: but where 30 years ago you would have been out of the house and on your own, an entire generation of 20 year olds are living with their parents and barely hanging on. If we calibrate our expectations for life against the patterns our boomer parents set, we're inevitably going to be disappointed...
I wouldn't expect you to start getting adult sea-legs until you're in your 30s, to be honest. Even if you did exactly what you were designed and "supposed" to do, if you live in America or Canada, you're likely feeling lost because you aren't where you thought you'd be. In one's 30s one realizes that no one is where they thought they'd be!
posted by Dressed to Kill at 5:07 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
As I've gotten older, I have gotten a little more perspective on the ebb and flow of life, and how much one can expect to get done. But it's still sometimes disturbing to think, oh I'm 49 now and I still haven't gotten around to ______. I'll never win any particular prizes or accolades, and that's fine. I like listening to Van Morrison's song "Cleaning Windows." I don't have to impress anybody with my life. It's just my life.
posted by rikschell at 6:01 AM on May 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 6:01 AM on May 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
Your love and admiration (and ability to express those feelings) for the people around you is rare and precious. Please don't discount the impact you have undoubtedly already had on these people just by appreciating them. Many people are "accomplished" and "winning" and they would give anything to be able to feel those feelings the way you do and be able to express their feelings. I urge you to check out Shine Theory as I suspect you could become an expert at it.
Most importantly, life is about change. Nobody wins all the time. Unfortunately, a bunch of the people who are "on top" right now will experience life changes that affect their social status or physical abilities and they'll no longer be The Town's Best Juggler For Now or The Knower Of All The Knots (2nding that you only need a few knots to be a knot nerd and that I've met multiple jerks who excel at knots) and if they are adaptive and fortunate they might learn new things and excel at those things. Or they might just relax and decide to stop juggling and struggling. You are more articulate and accomplished than myself and a lot of my friends (I am 38) and we all love each other regardless. None of us excel at knots or juggling, though we all have hobbies and skills we enjoy together or separately. You already are winning every time you don't shut down.
Lastly, please visit The Bomb Dot LOL, which I was introduced to on the blue. It is a little bit of lovely medicine for when you're feeling down on yourself. Sending you lots of shine from over here!
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 6:11 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Most importantly, life is about change. Nobody wins all the time. Unfortunately, a bunch of the people who are "on top" right now will experience life changes that affect their social status or physical abilities and they'll no longer be The Town's Best Juggler For Now or The Knower Of All The Knots (2nding that you only need a few knots to be a knot nerd and that I've met multiple jerks who excel at knots) and if they are adaptive and fortunate they might learn new things and excel at those things. Or they might just relax and decide to stop juggling and struggling. You are more articulate and accomplished than myself and a lot of my friends (I am 38) and we all love each other regardless. None of us excel at knots or juggling, though we all have hobbies and skills we enjoy together or separately. You already are winning every time you don't shut down.
Lastly, please visit The Bomb Dot LOL, which I was introduced to on the blue. It is a little bit of lovely medicine for when you're feeling down on yourself. Sending you lots of shine from over here!
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 6:11 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Even if you did exactly what you were designed and "supposed" to do, if you live in America or Canada, you're likely feeling lost because you aren't where you thought you'd be
...which in turn likely has a great deal to do with the fact that, as Marina Kittaka so eloquently puts it, "we have this static vision of adulthood that presupposes access to, like, a functional social infrastructure as opposed to a strip-mined husk painted in stars and stripes."
posted by flabdablet at 6:21 AM on May 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
...which in turn likely has a great deal to do with the fact that, as Marina Kittaka so eloquently puts it, "we have this static vision of adulthood that presupposes access to, like, a functional social infrastructure as opposed to a strip-mined husk painted in stars and stripes."
posted by flabdablet at 6:21 AM on May 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
Look, as everyone above has said with more eloquence, everyone feels less accomplished than they'd like to be. But I would also add that the things you list...they aren't a personality. I hate to be the crabby old lady blaming The Internet For Ruining The Kids but fuck, only in the instagram era could a bright, talented, resilient human like yourself feel ashamed because you haven't advanced in your ukelele skills.
When you're in your 20s your personality isn't finished yet, so you get into all sorts of anything trying to find what sticks. You look around at whomever seems to have their shit together and it's easy to light on one or two concrete skills or interests they have as "ah yes, that's what an interesting person is." But it isn't. And I caution you that when you're 35 some of those people will still have a personality summed up by "oh they're so RANDOM!" or "that girl with the mushrooms" and nothing else much to them. And they will be so goddamned boring you'll want to scream.
The kind of person you want to be is a kind, thoughtful, accomplished, wise, and curious person. Those assorted skills and hobbies feel like a synecdoche for that but they aren't. What makes you thoughtful are your thoughts. What makes you kind are your actions toward others. What makes you wise is the shit you go through. What makes you accomplished is this last thing on your list, and none of the rest: learn to love myself so I can love others
Honestly what the fuck are you gonna do with knot-tying and juggling? Nobody's obituary ever says "and she tied a bitchin' sheet bend."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:48 AM on May 11, 2021 [24 favorites]
When you're in your 20s your personality isn't finished yet, so you get into all sorts of anything trying to find what sticks. You look around at whomever seems to have their shit together and it's easy to light on one or two concrete skills or interests they have as "ah yes, that's what an interesting person is." But it isn't. And I caution you that when you're 35 some of those people will still have a personality summed up by "oh they're so RANDOM!" or "that girl with the mushrooms" and nothing else much to them. And they will be so goddamned boring you'll want to scream.
The kind of person you want to be is a kind, thoughtful, accomplished, wise, and curious person. Those assorted skills and hobbies feel like a synecdoche for that but they aren't. What makes you thoughtful are your thoughts. What makes you kind are your actions toward others. What makes you wise is the shit you go through. What makes you accomplished is this last thing on your list, and none of the rest: learn to love myself so I can love others
Honestly what the fuck are you gonna do with knot-tying and juggling? Nobody's obituary ever says "and she tied a bitchin' sheet bend."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:48 AM on May 11, 2021 [24 favorites]
Response by poster: Hi everyone, thank you so much for these responses, they are making me giggle in a wise and knowing way - the knots are an especially sore point for me after spending too much time around tree riggers and climbers, so it's good to be reminded how silly some of my fixations are! I really appreciate the perspectives and references, both the new material and my favourites Hesse and Van Morrison :-) I'm looking foreward to properly contemplating these messages and any future ones people care to add - it's lovely to come together around joint appreciation of life being "just life"
Edit: omg the bitchin' sheet bend.. truly the only legacy i need
posted by fantasticbotanical at 6:52 AM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Edit: omg the bitchin' sheet bend.. truly the only legacy i need
posted by fantasticbotanical at 6:52 AM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
I dropped out of a grad school program in my late 20s, ABD with an MA. I'd only joined the grad program because I wasn't sure what to do with my liberal arts BA (and, honestly, I had a crush on a woman from my undergrad program who selected that grad school, which, in hindsight, is a completely awful metric for life decisions). My feelings/thoughts about the whole thing and being behind my peers had way more to do with retirement funds and career ladder stuff than what you're describing here. To be honest, I wish I'd been more of an activist, like you are. I'm totally working for The Man (where The Man has been, at times, the military-industrial complex and late-stage capitalism). All the same, I wrestled with a lot of the things you're describing, and I'm okay in my late 30s. So, some thoughts from that perspective:
Okay, so, you never want to be the smartest person in the room. Being surrounded by people who are more experienced and maybe smarter than you in some ways is a great way to learn and grow. My experience is that nobody comes fully-formed as that more experienced/smarter/more interesting person, they have to get there somehow, and being around a bunch of smarter/more experienced people and seeing how they do things and struggling to catch up is one good way to get there. One almost certainly does not get there by being the big fish in the tiny pond forever. And it's necessary to have less-experienced people who are becoming more experienced around -- nobody gets things done in a vacuum, everybody needs help and support. Doing the help and support stuff isn't always glamorous but it's how you learn the ropes. I guess that sounds a lot like "pay your dues," but at the same time, people do have to learn all these things somehow, and there's a lot that school doesn't teach.
One thing that struck me is your side-note about the person you're dating, and the other woman you just met. I'd like to remind you that people aren't an RPG stats sheet -- Interestingness +5, etc. My wife comes from a very different background than me, and at various points when we were dating, I wondered why she was dating boring ol' me, and not some high-powered lawyer/politician type (they're in her orbit, and relevant to her interests). Turns out she likes me, and my me-specific quirks. And I like her. I can't guarantee your person will feel exactly that way about you, but it's worth finding someone who does, and I wouldn't assume your person doesn't.
Maybe think about being interested, not interesting? I find that curiosity is the most valuable trait in people, and really hard to find/interview for/etc.
posted by Alterscape at 7:40 AM on May 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
Okay, so, you never want to be the smartest person in the room. Being surrounded by people who are more experienced and maybe smarter than you in some ways is a great way to learn and grow. My experience is that nobody comes fully-formed as that more experienced/smarter/more interesting person, they have to get there somehow, and being around a bunch of smarter/more experienced people and seeing how they do things and struggling to catch up is one good way to get there. One almost certainly does not get there by being the big fish in the tiny pond forever. And it's necessary to have less-experienced people who are becoming more experienced around -- nobody gets things done in a vacuum, everybody needs help and support. Doing the help and support stuff isn't always glamorous but it's how you learn the ropes. I guess that sounds a lot like "pay your dues," but at the same time, people do have to learn all these things somehow, and there's a lot that school doesn't teach.
One thing that struck me is your side-note about the person you're dating, and the other woman you just met. I'd like to remind you that people aren't an RPG stats sheet -- Interestingness +5, etc. My wife comes from a very different background than me, and at various points when we were dating, I wondered why she was dating boring ol' me, and not some high-powered lawyer/politician type (they're in her orbit, and relevant to her interests). Turns out she likes me, and my me-specific quirks. And I like her. I can't guarantee your person will feel exactly that way about you, but it's worth finding someone who does, and I wouldn't assume your person doesn't.
Maybe think about being interested, not interesting? I find that curiosity is the most valuable trait in people, and really hard to find/interview for/etc.
posted by Alterscape at 7:40 AM on May 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
I have lived 50 years on this planet and I have yet to meet a single person who, deep down, is 100% perfectly satisfied with their life and who they are and what they can do. Humans are hard-wired to strive and achieve and DO. And it's a lifelong pursuit. I don't think there's one person, anywhere, who has woken up one day and said, "Yay me! I've accomplished everything I want to accomplish and now I'm going to sit here for the rest of my life and not try to do anything new or get better at anything else!" Like, you're 24. You have SO MUCH TIME to do ANYTHING you want! Or nothing at all! It's okay either way! I can't even remember most of what I was doing at 24, but the things I do remember? Being with friends, having experiences, learning things, loving people.
Just be kind, be open to new stuff, make connections with people and animals. That's all we really need to do. And, gently, if you haven't pursued therapy, you might find in incredibly valuable.
posted by cooker girl at 7:46 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Just be kind, be open to new stuff, make connections with people and animals. That's all we really need to do. And, gently, if you haven't pursued therapy, you might find in incredibly valuable.
posted by cooker girl at 7:46 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Well for me it is an auspicious day for you to ask this question!
At 21 I dropped out of my first degree program due to undiagnosed PTSD and DID.
In 1996, at 25, I had transferred those credits and started that degree over again and - I dropped out again, improperly by just not showing up. I failed a last class and I had one more class to go, which left me with two courses to go to finish that degree.*
Today I'm starting the first of those two courses. At age 50.
Nuts, right?
Guess what? In between I spent 4 years working in non-profit, 15 years working in media working up a fairly senior level and winning awards, a couple years in arts marketing, and now I'm working back office in fitness. All of that time my narrative to myself has been "I failed out of school because I didn't deal with my mental illness the right way" and "any day now I will be revealed as an imposter."
Basically, life is what happens when you are making other plans.
I had no idea at age 30, when I was ashamed of my lack of completed degree, wandering into my media career, just starting to get the right help and therapy - how amazingly happy I would be today. I had no idea about all the things that would make me happy in between - martial arts, gardening, esoteric knowledge about scheduling software.
My kids are baking me "muffins, but not a cake because you only get a cake when you graduate next year."
Please enjoy your life. You are doing great. Whatever it is that you are seeing that your friends have...trust me, over the course of their lifespans things will come and go. The question is what do you want. What do you want to do today? Pick one thing. Do that!
posted by warriorqueen at 8:24 AM on May 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
At 21 I dropped out of my first degree program due to undiagnosed PTSD and DID.
In 1996, at 25, I had transferred those credits and started that degree over again and - I dropped out again, improperly by just not showing up. I failed a last class and I had one more class to go, which left me with two courses to go to finish that degree.*
Today I'm starting the first of those two courses. At age 50.
Nuts, right?
Guess what? In between I spent 4 years working in non-profit, 15 years working in media working up a fairly senior level and winning awards, a couple years in arts marketing, and now I'm working back office in fitness. All of that time my narrative to myself has been "I failed out of school because I didn't deal with my mental illness the right way" and "any day now I will be revealed as an imposter."
Basically, life is what happens when you are making other plans.
I had no idea at age 30, when I was ashamed of my lack of completed degree, wandering into my media career, just starting to get the right help and therapy - how amazingly happy I would be today. I had no idea about all the things that would make me happy in between - martial arts, gardening, esoteric knowledge about scheduling software.
My kids are baking me "muffins, but not a cake because you only get a cake when you graduate next year."
Please enjoy your life. You are doing great. Whatever it is that you are seeing that your friends have...trust me, over the course of their lifespans things will come and go. The question is what do you want. What do you want to do today? Pick one thing. Do that!
posted by warriorqueen at 8:24 AM on May 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
*Oops forgot this: So for 25 years I have felt like an academic failure. When I met with my advisor he was like "you just need two classes! Your average is fine despite that last F!" I hadn't known that because without the library fine being paid, I couldn't see my transcripts to know everything else was an A except one B.
I could have checked at any point. It was only shame keeping me out of it, and $33. That's it. (And a childhood of abuse I guess.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:27 AM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
I could have checked at any point. It was only shame keeping me out of it, and $33. That's it. (And a childhood of abuse I guess.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:27 AM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Don't compare yourself to other people. It fucks with your head. Right now you're comparing yourself to a group of super successful people. Try the reverse and compare yourself to people who have completely fucked up their lives. You see? Neither comparison is particularly helpful or even relevant. What matters is what and who you are right now. It sounds to me like you are an intelligent, driven, capable individual who has a really good chance of having an incredible life ahead of them.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 8:29 AM on May 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 8:29 AM on May 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Something else I remember finding helpful as a youngster was realizing that I didn't actually need to be terrified that I was about to fail at every new job for no better reason than that I'd never done that job before.
What I had done by the time I worked this out was several other jobs I'd never done before. So it occurred to me that before every single one of them I'd experienced the very same sinking dread and inadequacy that I was feeling right now, but that in every case I'd risen to the challenges they presented me with and that there was therefore no good reason to assume that I wouldn't rise to this one too.
As, in fact, has turned out to be the case for the rest of my working life.
As I'm quite sure will turn out to be the case for the rest of yours.
Bite off more than you can chew, then chew like mad. That's the way to get the juices out of the thing.
posted by flabdablet at 8:50 AM on May 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
What I had done by the time I worked this out was several other jobs I'd never done before. So it occurred to me that before every single one of them I'd experienced the very same sinking dread and inadequacy that I was feeling right now, but that in every case I'd risen to the challenges they presented me with and that there was therefore no good reason to assume that I wouldn't rise to this one too.
As, in fact, has turned out to be the case for the rest of my working life.
As I'm quite sure will turn out to be the case for the rest of yours.
Bite off more than you can chew, then chew like mad. That's the way to get the juices out of the thing.
posted by flabdablet at 8:50 AM on May 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
So, my parents were the type to ask "Why wasn't it 100?" when I came to them with a 98 on a high-school physics exam I had dreaded and studied my butt off for.
That poison can stick with you.
Is there someone living rent-free in your head whose voice is all this cruel you-don't-measure-up self-talk? If so, can you work on evicting them?
posted by humbug at 9:30 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
That poison can stick with you.
Is there someone living rent-free in your head whose voice is all this cruel you-don't-measure-up self-talk? If so, can you work on evicting them?
posted by humbug at 9:30 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm 28 years old and pretty much felt this way when I was 19? Kudos on breaking free of an abusive relationship, I was 19 when that happened too and I really felt the huge loss of losing my entire teen years to that asshole. But since I was 19, I've spent a lot of time dwelling on living the rest of my life perfectly...and honestly, it's worn off over the years when I realized that worrying about this is re-inforcing the loop of not living life, and I'm better off just doing stuff instead of losing it again to worries like this!
I think you're applying anxious over-perfectionism to accomplishing life. There is no such thing -- everyone is on their own path, and the sooner that you learn to just take it easy and delight in being a new person and finding fun things to do, the less you'll worry about that.
posted by yueliang at 9:54 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think you're applying anxious over-perfectionism to accomplishing life. There is no such thing -- everyone is on their own path, and the sooner that you learn to just take it easy and delight in being a new person and finding fun things to do, the less you'll worry about that.
posted by yueliang at 9:54 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I often think about Janet Frame's autobiography in this kind of context. She says the years of her twenties her taken from her by mental illness and an incorrect diagnosis. (iirc her real issue was social anxiety and maybe some depression, but she was diagnosed with schizophrenia.) When she emerged from her almost medieval treatment, she made up for lost time in a way that few could aim for, I think. She traveled the world and built up a body of literary work she'd started while hospitalized. So, I'm not sure I consider her an example that most people could aim for. What interests me is the way she both got past that miserable decade and also incorporated it into her work. She also remained true to a sense of herself as different from other people, not worse.
Jane Campion's movie based on the autobiography is really pretty good if you're curious.
posted by BibiRose at 10:11 AM on May 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Jane Campion's movie based on the autobiography is really pretty good if you're curious.
posted by BibiRose at 10:11 AM on May 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
I cannot agree enough with advice to be kind, to yourself not least of all. Similarly, to find kind people. I spent my twenties with folks who were extraordinarily smart and talented - but not always kind. They were not and are not bad people, but they sometimes gently teased me as a Do-Gooder, and I felt an overwhelming desire to Live Up To them, to be As Cool as they were. (I also have spent the past ten years with Professional Do-Gooders, many of whom also are not genuinely kind, but suffering their own gnawing desire to achieve or atone or apotheosize.)
Some of the kindest people I’ve met have been folks who hobby together, but who take it on for joy rather than status. A few years ago, I went to a summer camp for folks learning to play jazz music, and the camp motto was FREEDOM TO SUCK. I love that motto, because in almost no domain of my life have I ever felt that freedom. It is incredible medicine to do something not because I’m already kind of good at it, or because I improve quickly, but because it’s fun or important to me, and I like it so much I don’t care whether I’m good or not. Even more so to be surrounded by people cheering you on and gleefully sucking their own way through learning how to play the clarinet or the banjo or what have you. Are there people like that in your ukelele or climbing or knot-tying circles?
Wishing you the best.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:45 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Some of the kindest people I’ve met have been folks who hobby together, but who take it on for joy rather than status. A few years ago, I went to a summer camp for folks learning to play jazz music, and the camp motto was FREEDOM TO SUCK. I love that motto, because in almost no domain of my life have I ever felt that freedom. It is incredible medicine to do something not because I’m already kind of good at it, or because I improve quickly, but because it’s fun or important to me, and I like it so much I don’t care whether I’m good or not. Even more so to be surrounded by people cheering you on and gleefully sucking their own way through learning how to play the clarinet or the banjo or what have you. Are there people like that in your ukelele or climbing or knot-tying circles?
Wishing you the best.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:45 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
the camp motto was FREEDOM TO SUCK
Ladles and jellyspoons: please give a warm welcome to The Portsmouth Sinfonia, possibly the world's leading exponents of music that's more fun to play than to listen to.
posted by flabdablet at 11:07 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Ladles and jellyspoons: please give a warm welcome to The Portsmouth Sinfonia, possibly the world's leading exponents of music that's more fun to play than to listen to.
posted by flabdablet at 11:07 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
You know what, all of our lives are filled from beginning to end with mistakes and wasted opportunities. There's nothing particularly notable about your experience. What is notable, perhaps, is that you're wasting your beautiful, fleeting youth, full of health and possibility, beating yourself up over the most trivial "failings." The good news is that this is usually an affliction of the young and will wear off over time as you look around and discover that the world is not populated with people who are revered for being rock-climbing, knot-tying, juggling anarchists but with all kinds of people who are loved and valued just because they're kind. Are you being kind? Then you're fine.
posted by HotToddy at 11:12 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 11:12 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Lots of good advice from my middle-aged coevals in this thread so rather than piling more on, I'm gonna share a song, by a guy about your age:
Balonely, "Stories"
Your line item "develop a stock of interesting stories to tell people" reminded me of it. Lyrics:
Jerry, got married en Paris. He said that it was amazing
Terry, was touched by the hand of god it was invigorating
(while her sisters were singing)
Mary, she gave all of her things to charity - ain’t that nice
Maria discovered a brand-new species in Brazil
You know what they say
They say life’s short and there’s a lot to love,
And yeah you can find it, they’re sure that you can
Sometime you got to give it a try they say
OK, alright
I don’t want to tell stories
Oh no I’m compelled to be boring
What a song. Also, the bass player is his mom.
posted by escabeche at 3:30 PM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Balonely, "Stories"
Your line item "develop a stock of interesting stories to tell people" reminded me of it. Lyrics:
Jerry, got married en Paris. He said that it was amazing
Terry, was touched by the hand of god it was invigorating
(while her sisters were singing)
Mary, she gave all of her things to charity - ain’t that nice
Maria discovered a brand-new species in Brazil
You know what they say
They say life’s short and there’s a lot to love,
And yeah you can find it, they’re sure that you can
Sometime you got to give it a try they say
OK, alright
I don’t want to tell stories
Oh no I’m compelled to be boring
What a song. Also, the bass player is his mom.
posted by escabeche at 3:30 PM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
OK, I know. I get it. You're hanging out with Those People and they're all so much better than you at EVERYTHING and they're so shiny and you wish you were that amazing and you know deep down inside that you're not.
This thread has covered "in the long run it doesn't matter" and "they feel bad about themselves too", so I can skip that.
Instead, I'm going to put in a plug for hanging out with them less. (And also for giving up caffeine, which for me is a Bad Drug which makes me tell myself how worthless&weak I am; perhaps it is for you as well and you haven't noticed yet.) And for dating *outside* this circle, also. Of course you're attracted to the people you hero-worship, but let me tell ya, throwing your uselessness in your own face all the time because your partner(s) are obviously much more useful is... well. Let's just say I got happier when I got out.
You're not me, but I hope this helps anyway.
posted by inexorably_forward at 4:04 PM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
This thread has covered "in the long run it doesn't matter" and "they feel bad about themselves too", so I can skip that.
Instead, I'm going to put in a plug for hanging out with them less. (And also for giving up caffeine, which for me is a Bad Drug which makes me tell myself how worthless&weak I am; perhaps it is for you as well and you haven't noticed yet.) And for dating *outside* this circle, also. Of course you're attracted to the people you hero-worship, but let me tell ya, throwing your uselessness in your own face all the time because your partner(s) are obviously much more useful is... well. Let's just say I got happier when I got out.
You're not me, but I hope this helps anyway.
posted by inexorably_forward at 4:04 PM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
flabdablet, that is just WONDERFUL
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 4:59 PM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 4:59 PM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
"That’s really scary, because that means I have no value to contribute as a person in the kinds of contexts I want to be in." There's a lot of good advice in this thread. I wanted to rebut this statement of yours in particular. Have you heard of the concept of internalized capitalism? It's the idea that we have internalized the values of capitalism such that we do things like beat ourselves up for not being "productive" on a day off or we say things like "I have no value to these people because I don't excel at these skills." Here's something to ask yourself: do you think that one must be a "productive" member of society to have any value? I would argue that all people are inherently valuable. That includes you.
Here are some other ways to rebut these type of thoughts:
In any group of people, someone will always be the best and someone the worst at a particular skill/task, whatever. If the group is big enough, odds are there will always be someone who is more "accomplished/successful/knowledgeable/skilled" than you. So what? Someone has to be last.
Yet another:
For some people, it is a great joy to share their knowledge, teach skills and coach along others. Your "lack" of skill or whatever is a gift to these people--at last, someone to teach!
One more:
You can lead by example, inspiring others with your willingness to try, to be vulnerable, to ask questions. Those are all attributes often required in order to learn new things. Many people are too scared to try as adults. You are not!
Lastly, I'd like to echo the sentiment that if anyone is purposefully trying to make you feel bad about any of these things, cut them the fuck out of your life. I'd also like to say that given your background, I hope you are seeking therapy or consider it. It can be really helpful to have an ally as you work on changing these thought patterns. Here's a tool I have found helpful as I work on these things myself. It takes practice, just like learning any new skill.
posted by purple_bird at 5:53 PM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Here are some other ways to rebut these type of thoughts:
In any group of people, someone will always be the best and someone the worst at a particular skill/task, whatever. If the group is big enough, odds are there will always be someone who is more "accomplished/successful/knowledgeable/skilled" than you. So what? Someone has to be last.
Yet another:
For some people, it is a great joy to share their knowledge, teach skills and coach along others. Your "lack" of skill or whatever is a gift to these people--at last, someone to teach!
One more:
You can lead by example, inspiring others with your willingness to try, to be vulnerable, to ask questions. Those are all attributes often required in order to learn new things. Many people are too scared to try as adults. You are not!
Lastly, I'd like to echo the sentiment that if anyone is purposefully trying to make you feel bad about any of these things, cut them the fuck out of your life. I'd also like to say that given your background, I hope you are seeking therapy or consider it. It can be really helpful to have an ally as you work on changing these thought patterns. Here's a tool I have found helpful as I work on these things myself. It takes practice, just like learning any new skill.
posted by purple_bird at 5:53 PM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm not a big fan of the term mental health issues. An issue is when the cat gets out. You probably have a devastating brain disease like depression or another mental illness that you overcome heroically every day. Pat yourself on the back.
A lot of crisis facilities stress schedules and habit as a way of getting on the road to recovery, whatever that may look like for you. There is a lot of value in this. Some books I've read about habit stress the idea that repeating a behavior makes it easier to perform without thinking- that's kinda obvious- but the amount of energy, especially mental energy, it saves is tremendous. Even small habits like putting the keys in the same place every time really make life easier.
You could apply the idea of schedule and habit to your ukulele playing, for example, and play at the same time every day. You'd probably start craving jam sessions after a while and would be rocking out before you know it. I guess you can rock out on a uke...
Best of luck to you! You are valuable. Thanks for sharing your story. I think it makes a lot of people who are struggling feel like they're not alone. Not everyone is brave enough to put their story out there. Good on ya.
posted by jumanjinight at 7:52 PM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
A lot of crisis facilities stress schedules and habit as a way of getting on the road to recovery, whatever that may look like for you. There is a lot of value in this. Some books I've read about habit stress the idea that repeating a behavior makes it easier to perform without thinking- that's kinda obvious- but the amount of energy, especially mental energy, it saves is tremendous. Even small habits like putting the keys in the same place every time really make life easier.
You could apply the idea of schedule and habit to your ukulele playing, for example, and play at the same time every day. You'd probably start craving jam sessions after a while and would be rocking out before you know it. I guess you can rock out on a uke...
Best of luck to you! You are valuable. Thanks for sharing your story. I think it makes a lot of people who are struggling feel like they're not alone. Not everyone is brave enough to put their story out there. Good on ya.
posted by jumanjinight at 7:52 PM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Hi again everyone, and thanks for all the additional reflections & wisdoms! I wanted to check back to share how some of these have landed for me over the last day. I'm listening to the Portsmouth Simphonia Tchaikovsky recording as I type this and it's interesting noticing how joyful listening to it is - it's sort of more uplifting and funky-feeling-in-body giving than listening to this piece being performed super well. I think that says something about what we actually value in other people and in experiences, which is something like the spirit of them, just the brazen f*ck it I'm alive I might as well do this thing because it's fun. Not because I need to prove that I deserve to exist by playing each note perfectly, or because I will feel more secure about the necessary vulnerabilities of experience because at least I'm in control in this one aspect. Just because it's cool to make some sounds with other people. And then the skill and capacity comes because you keep making cool sounds with other people, i.e. doing what you enjoy.
That's the complete reverse of the order I've had in my head for so long! I think that's why I've often struggled to pursue hobbies or passions, coz it's pretty hard to do that when your dominant narrative is 'I just have to suffer this super embarrasing and awful feeling of being bad until I get good enough for this to be any fun, which will probably be a while and oh my god I still sound so bad which means I don't deserve to have fun with this and wait maybe I actually also don't deserve to exist since existence is meant to be lived fully and I can't even do that because I'm so busy thinking about how I don't deserve to have fun yet and this feels pretty awful so I think I just won't pick up a guitar ever again and then spend my time feeling jealous of people who got good enough for guitar to be fun for them'.
I can trace a lot of this thinking back to family experiences, and I've had some realisations about having felt like this a lot of times in my childhood - I even remembered struggling to learn to tie my shoelaces as quickly as other kids, which I think explains some of my knot hang-ups :-)
The other important realisation that's sunk in a bit more is that I can be slower or less productive than others, make mistakes, be uncertain etc and still be a valuable human being who doesn't deserve to spend their life feeling bad about themselves. It's totally the internalised capitalism purple_bird mentioned, and it always catches me out how as someone who is relatively immersed in anti-capitalist theory and practice I still forget that the way I feel isn't an individual pathology but a structural condition of a specific type of way of understanding human value and social relations.
This framing is super powerful for me because it makes not giving into this idea that I have to be productive to be valuable an act of resistance against a hegemony that would love it if I spent my life feeling so worthless that I surrendered to trying to prove my value on its terms instead of combatting it. Also it's fun to imagine a little Monopoly man as the voice of these thoughts.
And it's already helped on a practical level - I just did a big clean of my room which I've been to depressed to clean recently, and misplaced my glasses in the process, and initially I went on a self-hate and oh my god I am unfit to live life in society spiral but that I was able to just laugh about it and give myself some slack, since the clean was pretty massive and I'm tired. Still haven't found my glasses but we'll get there :-) just without the unnecessary drama!
This is a super long post and it is a bit of public self-therapy but I wanted to share the ways all the time and energy everyone has given to this q have helped me, in the hopes that it will be useful as a reference point for others. Also, if I can recommend one resource, I really like the Healthy Gamer on Youtube - it's so much easier to empathise with yourself when you hear other people talking about the same feelings and realising their own worth. Thanks again everyone and have fun out there!
posted by fantasticbotanical at 3:59 AM on May 12, 2021 [13 favorites]
That's the complete reverse of the order I've had in my head for so long! I think that's why I've often struggled to pursue hobbies or passions, coz it's pretty hard to do that when your dominant narrative is 'I just have to suffer this super embarrasing and awful feeling of being bad until I get good enough for this to be any fun, which will probably be a while and oh my god I still sound so bad which means I don't deserve to have fun with this and wait maybe I actually also don't deserve to exist since existence is meant to be lived fully and I can't even do that because I'm so busy thinking about how I don't deserve to have fun yet and this feels pretty awful so I think I just won't pick up a guitar ever again and then spend my time feeling jealous of people who got good enough for guitar to be fun for them'.
I can trace a lot of this thinking back to family experiences, and I've had some realisations about having felt like this a lot of times in my childhood - I even remembered struggling to learn to tie my shoelaces as quickly as other kids, which I think explains some of my knot hang-ups :-)
The other important realisation that's sunk in a bit more is that I can be slower or less productive than others, make mistakes, be uncertain etc and still be a valuable human being who doesn't deserve to spend their life feeling bad about themselves. It's totally the internalised capitalism purple_bird mentioned, and it always catches me out how as someone who is relatively immersed in anti-capitalist theory and practice I still forget that the way I feel isn't an individual pathology but a structural condition of a specific type of way of understanding human value and social relations.
This framing is super powerful for me because it makes not giving into this idea that I have to be productive to be valuable an act of resistance against a hegemony that would love it if I spent my life feeling so worthless that I surrendered to trying to prove my value on its terms instead of combatting it. Also it's fun to imagine a little Monopoly man as the voice of these thoughts.
And it's already helped on a practical level - I just did a big clean of my room which I've been to depressed to clean recently, and misplaced my glasses in the process, and initially I went on a self-hate and oh my god I am unfit to live life in society spiral but that I was able to just laugh about it and give myself some slack, since the clean was pretty massive and I'm tired. Still haven't found my glasses but we'll get there :-) just without the unnecessary drama!
This is a super long post and it is a bit of public self-therapy but I wanted to share the ways all the time and energy everyone has given to this q have helped me, in the hopes that it will be useful as a reference point for others. Also, if I can recommend one resource, I really like the Healthy Gamer on Youtube - it's so much easier to empathise with yourself when you hear other people talking about the same feelings and realising their own worth. Thanks again everyone and have fun out there!
posted by fantasticbotanical at 3:59 AM on May 12, 2021 [13 favorites]
a hegemony that would love it if I spent my life feeling so worthless that I surrendered to trying to prove my value on its terms instead of combatting it
posted by flabdablet at 6:06 AM on May 12, 2021
Youkeep smiling
You look like the kind of guy
The kind of inconclusive waste of space
That we can use
You
You've got just the right approach
You've got this all-consuming overpowering
Will to lose
posted by flabdablet at 6:06 AM on May 12, 2021
Wow fantasticbotanical, what a lovely update! Good for you!
posted by purple_bird at 10:51 AM on May 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by purple_bird at 10:51 AM on May 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
OP, you have lots of great answers above about the ideas in your post in a whole, seeing your update it is good to see you getting there as I sometimes struggle myself with these sorts of feelings.
I just wanted to respond to one small part of your post:
That’s really scary, because that means I have no value to contribute as a person in the kinds of contexts I want to be in. There is no role for me anywhere, because there’s always someone there who can do it better than me.
So, one context I am in is helping to find people to volunteer to take on certain things/responsibilities. Things that there are people out there who have so much knowledge, so many years of experience in those areas, but that's not what we look for when thinking about who would be an awesome person to have take on a project! The first thing, the most important thing, is that the person be interested and willing to take on the responsibility and interested in learning more about it.
And for so many things, the person who can contribute the most isn't the person who is the "best" -- but the person who feels they have so much still to learn, and open to learning from others because they very much desire to learn.
And on top of it all, even if I am able to pursue all these things at once, I still won’t be as good at them as others!
Being less good at, for example, playing the ukulele and sing than someone who has devoted their life to playing the ukulele and singing since they were a child is just part of life. But they have probably had to miss out on other life experiences to spend hours every day practicing. If you (general you) are the sort of person who has one thing they deeply, deeply love more than all other things, this can be a very satisfying life -- but if, for example, the ukulele playing was because you had a parent who very much desired for you to be a professional ukulele player, and it seemed a lot easier to keep being a professional ukulele player since so much time had been invested, it might not be making you very happy or satisfied with life.
That said, if you are going to be in a situation like tree trimming or climbing where human life is going to be dependent on your ability to tie knots well, make sure you know what you need to know to do that safely. Go to a place that teaches that, don't rely only on your friends, because you might learn important safety stuff that your friends are taking shortcuts on, because teaching is a separate skill set than doing the thing and your friends might not be good at teaching, and because you will be able to better focus on the things you need to learn (that you or someone else might die if you get wrong). There are also schools and certifications just for rigging out there. But if you just want to learn to tie knots because, well, you just do, you can pick up some interesting ones online, it does not matter if you are bad at it because no one is going to die if you are bad at it.
Which is a good approach to take to learning things! "Is anyone going to die if I am bad at this? No? OK, I can just give it a try and it's ok to be bad at it, I'm a person who wants to learn and I"m learning."
posted by yohko at 10:57 AM on May 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
I just wanted to respond to one small part of your post:
That’s really scary, because that means I have no value to contribute as a person in the kinds of contexts I want to be in. There is no role for me anywhere, because there’s always someone there who can do it better than me.
So, one context I am in is helping to find people to volunteer to take on certain things/responsibilities. Things that there are people out there who have so much knowledge, so many years of experience in those areas, but that's not what we look for when thinking about who would be an awesome person to have take on a project! The first thing, the most important thing, is that the person be interested and willing to take on the responsibility and interested in learning more about it.
And for so many things, the person who can contribute the most isn't the person who is the "best" -- but the person who feels they have so much still to learn, and open to learning from others because they very much desire to learn.
And on top of it all, even if I am able to pursue all these things at once, I still won’t be as good at them as others!
Being less good at, for example, playing the ukulele and sing than someone who has devoted their life to playing the ukulele and singing since they were a child is just part of life. But they have probably had to miss out on other life experiences to spend hours every day practicing. If you (general you) are the sort of person who has one thing they deeply, deeply love more than all other things, this can be a very satisfying life -- but if, for example, the ukulele playing was because you had a parent who very much desired for you to be a professional ukulele player, and it seemed a lot easier to keep being a professional ukulele player since so much time had been invested, it might not be making you very happy or satisfied with life.
That said, if you are going to be in a situation like tree trimming or climbing where human life is going to be dependent on your ability to tie knots well, make sure you know what you need to know to do that safely. Go to a place that teaches that, don't rely only on your friends, because you might learn important safety stuff that your friends are taking shortcuts on, because teaching is a separate skill set than doing the thing and your friends might not be good at teaching, and because you will be able to better focus on the things you need to learn (that you or someone else might die if you get wrong). There are also schools and certifications just for rigging out there. But if you just want to learn to tie knots because, well, you just do, you can pick up some interesting ones online, it does not matter if you are bad at it because no one is going to die if you are bad at it.
Which is a good approach to take to learning things! "Is anyone going to die if I am bad at this? No? OK, I can just give it a try and it's ok to be bad at it, I'm a person who wants to learn and I"m learning."
posted by yohko at 10:57 AM on May 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm a bit late to this conversation, but wanted to add after your fantastic update:
I am in my 40s, and what I love about people is not their previous accomplishments, but their enthusiasm discovering new things. Like, your last update positively fizzes and it made me want to hang out with you and get to know you.
From other people's reactions to me, it seems they feel the same way. No-one's wanted to know about the years I spent learning to do X. Instead, we chat about the stuff we just learnt and we're excited about. It's contagious!
So if you've got loads of new stuff you're just getting round to discovering, then from a making friends aspect you're at an advantage!
posted by Omnomnom at 9:22 AM on May 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am in my 40s, and what I love about people is not their previous accomplishments, but their enthusiasm discovering new things. Like, your last update positively fizzes and it made me want to hang out with you and get to know you.
From other people's reactions to me, it seems they feel the same way. No-one's wanted to know about the years I spent learning to do X. Instead, we chat about the stuff we just learnt and we're excited about. It's contagious!
So if you've got loads of new stuff you're just getting round to discovering, then from a making friends aspect you're at an advantage!
posted by Omnomnom at 9:22 AM on May 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Warning: don’t yearn too hard to be valued/accepted by dazzling, accomplished, fun people. Narcissists are always out there, sniffing the water for exploitable self-worth issues.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:22 AM on May 29, 2021
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:22 AM on May 29, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
Your post sounds like a lot of posts here used to sound. It sounds like a very standard thing to wonder at age 24. I hope this doesn't sound dismissive, but at age 42, it's laughable to me that you could be far behind, especially with important progress like having launched a career. You have SO MUCH TIME. (Well, none of us know, do we? But generally speaking.) And honestly, the things you list are cool things to know but don't make up the measure of a person. (I know a real jerk who is great at knots.)
While this sense of wanting to be great at many hobbies is common, I would also tentatively suggest that the degree to which you're thinking what you're thinking, the all-or-nothing lens you're putting it through, and the way it leaves you feeling ("like a worthless shell of a human being who will never have as much to offer the world as they do") isn't exactly healthy. Are you in therapy?
Here are a few things to consider:
1. You have inherent worth. Random pieces of knowledge and skills do not determine a person's worth. What makes you valuable to others is YOU.
2. This way of thinking -- that knowing less means you're less valuable -- is causing you to want to shut down. If you're shut down, you're not growing as a person or learning cool things.
3. You have your entire life to learn these things. Some things you can learn now. Some things you can learn when you retire. (Or anywhere in between.)
4. I'd pick a couple things. The ones that sound important to me are developing a consistent exercise practice (maybe even rock climbing?) and learning to love yourself.
Good luck! Hope this is a little helpful at least...
posted by slidell at 2:15 AM on May 11, 2021 [15 favorites]