Should we get a covid vaccine if it's offered early through a loophole?
January 26, 2021 11:20 PM Subscribe
We don't expect to be eligible for the vaccine for months, but a family member implied that we may be able to get one through their workplace. We won't pursue it, but if it's offered directly, should we take it?
Our risk level and exposure are on the lower side I think. We're both in our 30s with no serious health conditions (but not the picture of health either, one overweight/obese, the other gets cold induced asthma). We work from home and try to get curbside groceries but our kids go to daycare and pre-school.
Our mental health and daily life have been frequently precarious since before the pandemic and the vaccine would at least alleviate some anxiety. I think we would be offered it as part of a household of a healthcare worker if they have extra or something like that, but the family member doesn't even do patient care and we are not actually in the same household although they help with childcare (we would combine more than we have already if we were all vaccinated). I would feel a clear "no thanks" answer to this, except I've seen some articles like this one arguing that everyone should take it whenever offered basically because the rollout has been so disordered that shots in arms as fast as possible is more important than careful calculus over who needs it more.
I'm still leaning towards declining it because my anxiety over moral gray areas is probably even worse than my anxiety over health issues. But maybe I'm missing some perspective or other public health angles.
Our risk level and exposure are on the lower side I think. We're both in our 30s with no serious health conditions (but not the picture of health either, one overweight/obese, the other gets cold induced asthma). We work from home and try to get curbside groceries but our kids go to daycare and pre-school.
Our mental health and daily life have been frequently precarious since before the pandemic and the vaccine would at least alleviate some anxiety. I think we would be offered it as part of a household of a healthcare worker if they have extra or something like that, but the family member doesn't even do patient care and we are not actually in the same household although they help with childcare (we would combine more than we have already if we were all vaccinated). I would feel a clear "no thanks" answer to this, except I've seen some articles like this one arguing that everyone should take it whenever offered basically because the rollout has been so disordered that shots in arms as fast as possible is more important than careful calculus over who needs it more.
I'm still leaning towards declining it because my anxiety over moral gray areas is probably even worse than my anxiety over health issues. But maybe I'm missing some perspective or other public health angles.
Go for it. My mom just got vaccinated because she works at an assisted living facility. After staff and residents received shots, the administration invited staff to sign up family members for the remaining doses before they expired. I think that’s ethical - better you than the garbage can. And obesity and asthma do increase the odds of getting serious complications from COVID.
posted by jessca84 at 11:41 PM on January 26, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by jessca84 at 11:41 PM on January 26, 2021 [14 favorites]
One of my sisters is probably going to get it as she works at a health care provider and they are vaccinating all employees. She's in IT and works at home. This is nonsense and (in my not so humble opinion) a health care provider favoring their own welfare or that of their patients.
Do you know who I'm not angry at? My sister. She should get it. She's not gaming the system. Her son actually had Covid. It's really not her job to second guess these complicated rollout plans. If she were cutting in line or lobbying for it, that'd be different.
You should not feel guilty about getting it. It's not a moral gray area. It is a positive good--to yourself and others--to be vaccinated. It'll also help normalize getting the vaccine, the more and more diverse people who get it.
I'm not saying it's ridiculous to think of declining. There's virtue in declining for good reasons. But it's a standard I don't think you can hold people to and (given the rollout) not even clear it would benefit everyone.
posted by mark k at 12:11 AM on January 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
Do you know who I'm not angry at? My sister. She should get it. She's not gaming the system. Her son actually had Covid. It's really not her job to second guess these complicated rollout plans. If she were cutting in line or lobbying for it, that'd be different.
You should not feel guilty about getting it. It's not a moral gray area. It is a positive good--to yourself and others--to be vaccinated. It'll also help normalize getting the vaccine, the more and more diverse people who get it.
I'm not saying it's ridiculous to think of declining. There's virtue in declining for good reasons. But it's a standard I don't think you can hold people to and (given the rollout) not even clear it would benefit everyone.
posted by mark k at 12:11 AM on January 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
Some states have asked large employers - especially if they are healthcare employers - to offer vaccines to all employees, simply because it’s an easy way to get the number of people vaccinated up quickly. Others have done events and had extra doses prepared and opened them to family so they didn’t go to waste. If it’s offered, take it. The distribution has been a mess, but the more people who get it, the faster it helps us all. It’s sucks and it’s not fair and others need it more, yes. But still: you not accepting it won’t fix all of that, either.
posted by OneSmartMonkey at 12:36 AM on January 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by OneSmartMonkey at 12:36 AM on January 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
If you can get it, get it. Once it’s brought up from freezing it can’t be frozen again so if they don’t administer every dose that’s been unfrozen it goes to waste. Also, every person who can contribute to vaccinated herd immunity is a net good - maybe you aren’t an essential worker or whatever but you are still another life and another vector for the virus to get cut off from.
posted by Mizu at 12:54 AM on January 27, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 12:54 AM on January 27, 2021 [10 favorites]
So you are eligible for this because your family member would say you’re a member of their household? But you aren’t? So you all would be lying?
Please don’t jump the line. You’re not being offered the vaccine. Your family member is being offered a chance to fudge the truth for you.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:00 AM on January 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Please don’t jump the line. You’re not being offered the vaccine. Your family member is being offered a chance to fudge the truth for you.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:00 AM on January 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
> It is not in short supply, they're not turning people away. You don't see lines of people being turned down because they can't get a vaccine.
While this is false (one source of many) and the vaccine is in massively short supply, if your number comes up, you should get it as quickly as you can. Don't lie or exaggerate to do so, but the bottom line is we need shots in arms as quickly as possible.
posted by chrisamiller at 1:34 AM on January 27, 2021 [17 favorites]
While this is false (one source of many) and the vaccine is in massively short supply, if your number comes up, you should get it as quickly as you can. Don't lie or exaggerate to do so, but the bottom line is we need shots in arms as quickly as possible.
posted by chrisamiller at 1:34 AM on January 27, 2021 [17 favorites]
There are a lot of good answers here, particularly pointing out the issues with the longevity of the vaccine doses once they reach their destination, so I’ll just add in terms of framing: I think a lot of people tend to think scenarios like the one you’re facing are analogous to taking money that isn’t meant for them, which can permanently exhaust a limited resource and prevent it from helping the intended population. But the reality is that everyone needs this, and you getting it is still a net good not just for you but for everyone around you.
So as long as you’re not taking a dose that would have conceivably gone to someone in a high-risk group (because of, for example, mismatches between number of doses on hand and the size of the willing population in that group in your area), I’d say you’re fine ethically.
posted by Kosh at 2:38 AM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
So as long as you’re not taking a dose that would have conceivably gone to someone in a high-risk group (because of, for example, mismatches between number of doses on hand and the size of the willing population in that group in your area), I’d say you’re fine ethically.
posted by Kosh at 2:38 AM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don’t understand why people seem to think your getting the vaccine is keeping it from going to waste. This seems to be about being scheduled, not being offered vaccines at the end of the day. If you’re offered a vaccine that will be wasted otherwise, take it, but there’s no reason to think that’s what’s happening here.
Is it correct that you’re asking about lying to get the vaccine, saying you’re part of a person’s household when you’re not? Or letting someone else say it or assume it? I would consider that jumping the line and ethically wrong.
posted by FencingGal at 3:32 AM on January 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
Is it correct that you’re asking about lying to get the vaccine, saying you’re part of a person’s household when you’re not? Or letting someone else say it or assume it? I would consider that jumping the line and ethically wrong.
posted by FencingGal at 3:32 AM on January 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
My (eligible under the current rules) family member was fortunate enough to be able to get vaccinated last week, and there was a half-mile-long line, outside, in January, of health-care workers and people 70 and up waiting to get inside the vaccination center. And those were the people who were able to get an appointment - many times more weren't able to do so before the appointments all filled up for the next several weeks. And that was in a state that's doing fairly well percentage-wise.
If your relative's workplace would otherwise be throwing the shot in the trash, then yes, you getting the shot is the right thing to do. But I would not assume that is the case. If they do make the offer, I'd ask about what would happen to the shot if you don't accept it and make your decision on that basis.
I totally get your anxiety over all of this, by the way, as someone in your age group with similar risk factors. But we've still got a lower risk of serious complications than the people who are currently bring prioritized in most states, and a lower risk of exposure than front-line workers. Fingers crossed for the J&J shot getting approved quickly and speeding up this whole process!
posted by pie ninja at 4:10 AM on January 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
If your relative's workplace would otherwise be throwing the shot in the trash, then yes, you getting the shot is the right thing to do. But I would not assume that is the case. If they do make the offer, I'd ask about what would happen to the shot if you don't accept it and make your decision on that basis.
I totally get your anxiety over all of this, by the way, as someone in your age group with similar risk factors. But we've still got a lower risk of serious complications than the people who are currently bring prioritized in most states, and a lower risk of exposure than front-line workers. Fingers crossed for the J&J shot getting approved quickly and speeding up this whole process!
posted by pie ninja at 4:10 AM on January 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
If your own doctor offers it to you in the normal course of things take it, and tell people you know that you've been vaccinated to encourage take up.
If you're offered a vaccine through a friend or other contact because they need to use up the thawed stuff, take it, better in your arm than going to waste. Again, do what you can to encourage take up amongst your own family and friends.
Do not otherwise barge to the front of the line. In particular, do not lie to push yourself up first because you will bump down other people who need it more urgently.
posted by plonkee at 5:10 AM on January 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
If you're offered a vaccine through a friend or other contact because they need to use up the thawed stuff, take it, better in your arm than going to waste. Again, do what you can to encourage take up amongst your own family and friends.
Do not otherwise barge to the front of the line. In particular, do not lie to push yourself up first because you will bump down other people who need it more urgently.
posted by plonkee at 5:10 AM on January 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
You need to decide what YOU can live with. Then, live with the decision. This is a moral decision. I would call this a sominex decision, one you can sleep with.
Either yes, take it or no, don't can be rationalized.
posted by AugustWest at 5:51 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Either yes, take it or no, don't can be rationalized.
posted by AugustWest at 5:51 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One deleted. Please note that OP said: "I think we would be offered it as part of a household of a healthcare worker if they have extra or something like that." This isn't about taking "a slot scheduled for someone designated."
posted by taz (staff) at 5:59 AM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 5:59 AM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Herr Duck and I were talking about this last night. We settled on taking the vax if it was offered to us in a situation like "it's going to expire in 10 minutes and there's nobody else here to vaccinate!!!" As in, it's either us (healthy 40-somethings that are otherwise at the end of the line) or nobody at all.
Otherwise, we'd politely decline if there was anyone else that could be vaccinated. Hell, we'd even go and find more deserving people and drive them to the vax site if needed.
posted by Gray Duck at 6:12 AM on January 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Otherwise, we'd politely decline if there was anyone else that could be vaccinated. Hell, we'd even go and find more deserving people and drive them to the vax site if needed.
posted by Gray Duck at 6:12 AM on January 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Ethically, no. A vast number of people are experience acute stress, loneliness, and economic losses due to the Pandemic, just as you may be. The public heath folks have used facts, science, statistics to plan the vaccine rollout, and I recommend following that. and, yeah, I'd sure love to be on that last-minute vax must be used up list.
posted by theora55 at 6:19 AM on January 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 6:19 AM on January 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
I got it very early based on my role, not my practical level of risk. Initially I felt very guilty, but as others said the rollout is such a cluster that I don't know when I could've gotten it otherwise. And, many in my area are reluctant to get it, so I helped my broader community being a person who did get it. It isn't the most ethical choice I've ever made, but it also brought my community one step closer to ending this.
posted by crunchy potato at 6:38 AM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by crunchy potato at 6:38 AM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
This scandal is ongoing in my community. If you have to lie to get the vaccine, as the teachers were asked to do in this scenario, then that's unethical. It does not sound like you are in the same household with this relative.
However some parts of my state are already vaccinating teachers & school staff even those that can work from home. If you are offered the vaccine as part of legal guidelines then take it even if you don't feel you qualify.
Additionally make sure to follow state guidelines for behavior after vaccination. In my state vaccinated people are still subject to stay at home orders.
posted by muddgirl at 7:05 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
However some parts of my state are already vaccinating teachers & school staff even those that can work from home. If you are offered the vaccine as part of legal guidelines then take it even if you don't feel you qualify.
Additionally make sure to follow state guidelines for behavior after vaccination. In my state vaccinated people are still subject to stay at home orders.
posted by muddgirl at 7:05 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you have to lie or trick your way to get it then no, they obviously don't have them going to waste or you wouldn't have to trick your way into one. If it's offered to you and they know the truth and have no problem with that because return thawed vaccines is a pain or risks waste etc, then take it The more people immunized as quickly as possible the better for all of us, as long as low risk people aren't taking vaccines from higher risk people. Also be aware I don't think the single dose vaccine has rolled out yet so you need to be able to get two shots for the full effect.
posted by wwax at 8:06 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by wwax at 8:06 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
"I think we would be offered it as part of a household of a healthcare worker... and we are not actually in the same household..."
I suspect that you wouldn't have gotten many of the "go for it" answers above if this part of your question were more prominent.
posted by daisyace at 8:42 AM on January 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
I suspect that you wouldn't have gotten many of the "go for it" answers above if this part of your question were more prominent.
posted by daisyace at 8:42 AM on January 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Ethically, no. A vast number of people are experience acute stress, loneliness, and economic losses due to the Pandemic, just as you may be.
Yes, agree with this. And while I also agree there is indeed a great need to get shots in arms as fast as possible, this is not the way to go about it.
I work for a large healthcare organization, although not patient-facing. Over the weekend, my org saw a huge influx of appointments for vaccinations from individuals very clearly outside of the prioritized groups they're currently vaccinating (patient-facing healthcare workers and patients aged 75+). They discerned that the private scheduling link they'd sent directly to our healthcare workers had been widely shared with others, despite extremely clear directions not to do so yet.
The upshot is that people who were not currently eligible for vaccination were able to schedule appointments, taking advantage of a scheduling system they'd designed specifically to help healthcare workers get vaccinated as quickly as possible. As a result, they were forced to swiftly deactivate all scheduled appointments — including those for healthcare workers — and delayed the entire vaccination system until they can get a new process implemented later in the week. Of course their goal is to vaccinate everyone! But right now, given the limited supply they're working with at any given time, they feel it is critically important to continue vaccinating according to guidelines established by the state until otherwise directed.
So sure, I would take it IF offered directly to you AND you can be absolutely certain you are not engaging in some form of loophole. But since you are not directly part of their household, I would not count on it at this time, nor would I lie or fudge the truth to be able to do so.
posted by anderjen at 8:46 AM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yes, agree with this. And while I also agree there is indeed a great need to get shots in arms as fast as possible, this is not the way to go about it.
I work for a large healthcare organization, although not patient-facing. Over the weekend, my org saw a huge influx of appointments for vaccinations from individuals very clearly outside of the prioritized groups they're currently vaccinating (patient-facing healthcare workers and patients aged 75+). They discerned that the private scheduling link they'd sent directly to our healthcare workers had been widely shared with others, despite extremely clear directions not to do so yet.
The upshot is that people who were not currently eligible for vaccination were able to schedule appointments, taking advantage of a scheduling system they'd designed specifically to help healthcare workers get vaccinated as quickly as possible. As a result, they were forced to swiftly deactivate all scheduled appointments — including those for healthcare workers — and delayed the entire vaccination system until they can get a new process implemented later in the week. Of course their goal is to vaccinate everyone! But right now, given the limited supply they're working with at any given time, they feel it is critically important to continue vaccinating according to guidelines established by the state until otherwise directed.
So sure, I would take it IF offered directly to you AND you can be absolutely certain you are not engaging in some form of loophole. But since you are not directly part of their household, I would not count on it at this time, nor would I lie or fudge the truth to be able to do so.
posted by anderjen at 8:46 AM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
If your family member "helps with childcare", and you live with your children, I would argue that they ARE part of your household. Unless by "helping with childcare" you mean "they babysit via Zoom"
posted by olopua at 9:36 AM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by olopua at 9:36 AM on January 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
If it's truly surplus and will go to waste, sure, every adult should get it. In most communities that is a very small fraction of the doses, though. Many, many people who have 20x higher risk than you are currently going without. And asthma has been moved from the list of confirmed to possible as far as CDC risk factors go.
posted by wnissen at 10:53 AM on January 27, 2021
posted by wnissen at 10:53 AM on January 27, 2021
A household is almost universally defined as people sharing a dwelling. Per the CDC:
posted by muddgirl at 11:07 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
What is a household?Sending your kids to a childcare provider, or having someone come to your house to provide childcare, does not mean they are part of your household.
* Anyone who currently lives in and shares common spaces in your housing unit (house or apartment)
* Households can include family members and or people who aren’t related to you, like roommates
* People who don’t currently live with you (for example, college students who return home from school on breaks) are part of different households
posted by muddgirl at 11:07 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I am a healthcare worker working with COVID patients. I got the vaccine recently, but I watched people I know repeatedly get it before me, people who aren't working in healthcare at all or don't have contact with patients if they are in healthcare. It was frustrating and deeply, deeply disheartening.
And I think you should get it anyway.
Why?
It wasn't my friend's faults that the rollout is a disaster. It wasn't their fault that they were offered a vaccine first. I was frustrated when they got it, but the fact is herd immunity benefits ALL of us. Getting herd immunity should be our number one priority. This rollout feels like every man woman and child for themselves when really it is a joint effort, a community effort to come together and take collective steps to keep each other safe. This virus tears people down and it tears down the people tasked with caring for them day after day. You don't want that for yourself or others.
Unless you are directly taking it from someone who is high risk, take it, and rest easy knowing that a vaccine is something we do for the betterment of society and not just for ourselves. Public health is everyone's responsiblity.
posted by Amy93 at 3:03 PM on January 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
And I think you should get it anyway.
Why?
It wasn't my friend's faults that the rollout is a disaster. It wasn't their fault that they were offered a vaccine first. I was frustrated when they got it, but the fact is herd immunity benefits ALL of us. Getting herd immunity should be our number one priority. This rollout feels like every man woman and child for themselves when really it is a joint effort, a community effort to come together and take collective steps to keep each other safe. This virus tears people down and it tears down the people tasked with caring for them day after day. You don't want that for yourself or others.
Unless you are directly taking it from someone who is high risk, take it, and rest easy knowing that a vaccine is something we do for the betterment of society and not just for ourselves. Public health is everyone's responsiblity.
posted by Amy93 at 3:03 PM on January 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
From what I've read, just because you pass it up doesn't mean that someone who needs it more will get it. And who the hell knows if/when you can ever get it otherwise. Get it.
That said, I'm not at all clear on the 'might be eligible through family" aspect of this and don't feel like I can comment on the ethics of that one.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:54 PM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
That said, I'm not at all clear on the 'might be eligible through family" aspect of this and don't feel like I can comment on the ethics of that one.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:54 PM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I agree that we need to get shots in bodies (and also that there are real shortages in a lot of areas), but I don’t think it’s ethical to lie in order to get the vaccine (not assuming that’s what you’re proposing, but if it turns out the basis for you getting the vaccine is claiming to be a household member of somebody who isn’t truly a part of your residential household, then you are defying the spirit of the plan). While previous answers are correct that every vaccine delivered is good for the community, the system depends on there being no large-scale fraud or cheating from those trying to jump the line.
If a framework is delivering the vaccine in a way that is slightly inefficient, it’s probably better than trying to design a system that rank orders every citizen in order of need and then painstakingly verifies every detail in order to deliver vaccines accordingly. Still, if 100 million people show up to clinics claiming to be 70 when they’re really middle age, that’s going to cause real social harm. The problem likely isn’t the vaccine dose you’d be using that would then be denied to somebody else, but that if everybody in your position acted similarly your community would be in trouble.
posted by exutima at 10:03 PM on January 27, 2021
If a framework is delivering the vaccine in a way that is slightly inefficient, it’s probably better than trying to design a system that rank orders every citizen in order of need and then painstakingly verifies every detail in order to deliver vaccines accordingly. Still, if 100 million people show up to clinics claiming to be 70 when they’re really middle age, that’s going to cause real social harm. The problem likely isn’t the vaccine dose you’d be using that would then be denied to somebody else, but that if everybody in your position acted similarly your community would be in trouble.
posted by exutima at 10:03 PM on January 27, 2021
Mod note: From the OP:
Just wanted to update in case anyone was curious or bothered by the situation. The family member did not bring up the possibility of a vaccine again, so I assume the loophole was closed. Thanks everyone for your answers. I feel more clarity on how I will act if a situation like this arises again.posted by loup (staff) at 10:47 AM on February 22, 2021
On a related note (and I'm posting it more for anyone else doing a search in the future), the NYT Ethicist weighed in on this question.
But you’re benefiting from a system that was decided on after considerable deliberation among democratically elected leaders and scientific experts. Because the priority list, though inevitably imperfect, is a legitimate one, you are perfectly entitled, as an ethical matter, to receive your vaccination. In doing so, you are contributing not just to your own well-being but to the health of the community, given the growing evidence that a vaccinated person poses fewer risks to others, and, finally, to the resilience of our medical system.posted by jenfullmoon at 1:48 PM on February 23, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
I would get it if I was you and it was being offered because it's such a mess. You won't be taking it from someone, so much as using up badly distributed slack.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:41 PM on January 26, 2021 [48 favorites]