Should we adopt another pug?
March 26, 2006 8:13 AM Subscribe
Oh dog lovers of Metafilter: I need some sober second thought.
The lovely and talented Mrs. Docgonzo and I are seriously considering acquiring another dog. We already enjoy the love and affection of Mr. L. L. C. Jack Aujla-Milloy, a fine five-year-old male black pug. I have been investigating adopting another puglet and sent out a number of emails to breeders. This morning, a local breeder responded that she had no litters but was going to retire three of her pug bitches -- fawns aged 6, 7 and 8 years. Were we interested?
Pros: No toilet training, no cost -- she only wants us to spay the dog -- and the dogs are reg'd with the CKC.
What are the cons? How can I go about doing due diligence on her and her dogs? What are the sorts of questions I should be asking?
Thanks!
The lovely and talented Mrs. Docgonzo and I are seriously considering acquiring another dog. We already enjoy the love and affection of Mr. L. L. C. Jack Aujla-Milloy, a fine five-year-old male black pug. I have been investigating adopting another puglet and sent out a number of emails to breeders. This morning, a local breeder responded that she had no litters but was going to retire three of her pug bitches -- fawns aged 6, 7 and 8 years. Were we interested?
Pros: No toilet training, no cost -- she only wants us to spay the dog -- and the dogs are reg'd with the CKC.
What are the cons? How can I go about doing due diligence on her and her dogs? What are the sorts of questions I should be asking?
Thanks!
Best answer: Have you been to visit the breeder yet? That's step one in due diligence. Why don't you take your dog over to the breeder's house for a visit?
Re: things to ask - Was the dog kept indoors year round? Was the dog integrated with the family? How does the dog behave around children? Does the dog get car sick? Does it have allergies? What is the dog's temperment - does she bite? etc
Ask for a complete family lineage for each bitch, showing the number of litters and number of puppies. I would be wary of a bitch that had more than three litters. Ask for the vet history for the dog, the breeder probably has this information on file. Also, you can ask for a reference from an owner of one of the bitch's puppies. The puppy owner might have insight into possible genetic defects.
Really, the major unknown here is how your dog behaves around other dogs. The bitches can deal with new dogs, but your current dog may not be so accomodating. Have you stayed overnight at a friend or family member's house with other dogs? How did that work out?
I think pugs generally do ok with other pugs. We used to dog sit my uncle's old pug for weeks at a time when we had a pug puppy. There were a few skirmishes over food, and one incident where the puppy played too rough and took a chunk out of the old dog's neck, but otherwise they got along fine.
ps - your dog is adorable! My sister is looking for pug puppies in that area, so if you find a breeder with pups be sure to post!
posted by crazycanuck at 9:15 AM on March 26, 2006
Re: things to ask - Was the dog kept indoors year round? Was the dog integrated with the family? How does the dog behave around children? Does the dog get car sick? Does it have allergies? What is the dog's temperment - does she bite? etc
Ask for a complete family lineage for each bitch, showing the number of litters and number of puppies. I would be wary of a bitch that had more than three litters. Ask for the vet history for the dog, the breeder probably has this information on file. Also, you can ask for a reference from an owner of one of the bitch's puppies. The puppy owner might have insight into possible genetic defects.
Really, the major unknown here is how your dog behaves around other dogs. The bitches can deal with new dogs, but your current dog may not be so accomodating. Have you stayed overnight at a friend or family member's house with other dogs? How did that work out?
I think pugs generally do ok with other pugs. We used to dog sit my uncle's old pug for weeks at a time when we had a pug puppy. There were a few skirmishes over food, and one incident where the puppy played too rough and took a chunk out of the old dog's neck, but otherwise they got along fine.
ps - your dog is adorable! My sister is looking for pug puppies in that area, so if you find a breeder with pups be sure to post!
posted by crazycanuck at 9:15 AM on March 26, 2006
I had the same opportunity to addopt a retired Irish Wolfound fro a breeder. I had one 7 year old dog and wanted to add to the pet family.
Pros: stunning animals, show quality dogs with top breeding, animals with good dispositions and reflect the breed very well. These dogs usually do not become problem animals unless you are changing the dogs environnment bg time like in my case.
My adoption did not work and I brought the animal back a few months latter as she was raised in a ccountry environment and could not adapt to the city. Cars,traffic, everything terrified her. Make sure the environement change is not drastic like this.
Alos, how does your dog react to other animals in the house? When friends or familly bring their dogs does your pug become aggresive and territorial?
If not them with a smart introduction of your new Pug in a neutral zone ( say the park) and making sure to lavish attention on both dogs.
I think this is a great opportunity to make the life of this retired pug even better for him-her.
posted by sandrapbrady at 9:17 AM on March 26, 2006
Pros: stunning animals, show quality dogs with top breeding, animals with good dispositions and reflect the breed very well. These dogs usually do not become problem animals unless you are changing the dogs environnment bg time like in my case.
My adoption did not work and I brought the animal back a few months latter as she was raised in a ccountry environment and could not adapt to the city. Cars,traffic, everything terrified her. Make sure the environement change is not drastic like this.
Alos, how does your dog react to other animals in the house? When friends or familly bring their dogs does your pug become aggresive and territorial?
If not them with a smart introduction of your new Pug in a neutral zone ( say the park) and making sure to lavish attention on both dogs.
I think this is a great opportunity to make the life of this retired pug even better for him-her.
posted by sandrapbrady at 9:17 AM on March 26, 2006
Best answer: The first thing to look at is how much SHE wants to learn about YOU. An ethical breeder won't even consider placing a dog of any age in a home without getting to know you and your situation. You should ask to visit her. The "no cost" thing is normally a HUGE red flag, but if everything else checks out, I might choose to ignore it in a case like this where she is placing retirees (it's generally accepted that giving dogs away implies a lack of value, which potentially carries over to the dog's treatment by the new owners).
Things to consider:
- is there a contract you will be expected to sign? If not, find another breeder. Regardless of the dog's age, an ethical breeder takes responsibility for EVERY dog they produce for the life of the dog. If she does not expect you to sign a contract which clearly and unequivocally states that you MUST return the dog to her should you become unable to keep it for any reason, run away.
- does she want to discuss diet, medical care, training, etc. with you? If not, run away. If she has no suggestions about these things, or if her suggestions seem odd (i.e. she tells you that Purina Dog Chow is perfectly fine, her dogs have never had any health problems ever, or that training isn't important, etc.).
- does she make herself available to you for the forseeable future, to help you with any problems you may have? I talk to my dog's breeder on a regular basis, and visit her a few times a year, she is ALWAYS available to help me with questions or problems. Ethical breeders want to remain involved with you and hear how their dog is doing. Do not be afraid to ask her about this, and ask for references from puppy buyers.
- visit her, see how her dogs are kept and see how they behave. If she has 20 dogs, the odds that the one dog you end up with has had appropriate training and human interaction is quite a bit smaller than if she has 10 dogs.
- if she doesn't show and title her breeding stock, this is a GIGANTIC red flag. There is no good reason for an ethical breeder not to show their dogs, and many ethical reasons that they should show (the purpose of showing is to have someone other than yourself find your dog worthy of breeding from an appearance standpoint, there are many other considerations to take into account before breeding, of course, but appearance is definitely one of them, it's not about being "pretty", it's about looking the way the breed should look). If these bitches have been bred, in most cases, they should have their C(anadian)KC championships.
- how often does she breed and how often have these particular bitches been bred. Most breed clubs have a code of ethics you can read to get an idea of what is acceptable breeding practice. If these bitches have been bred every year, I would worry, if she has more than two or three litters a year, I would worry.
- choosing a female is the right choice, opposite-sex and different age (by 3-4 years) is your best chance of success, but if her dogs are gregarious and Jack likes other dogs, you should do well regardless of age. Be sure that she is willing to take the dog back if it doesn't work out. She should also have a suggestion about which bitch might be the best choice for you and your situation, contrary to what many people think ("look at a litter and pick the one you like"), most knowledgeable and ethical breeders will want to choose the dog for you, or at least narrow down your choices, they are the ones who know their dogs/puppies best, and they are better able to make a good match between dog and owner. She should want to place the right dog in the right home, not get rid of a mouth to feed.
- ask her about health issues in her lines. NO breeder has NEVER had a health problem in their lines, and they should be more than willing to discuss this with you, and should also be eager to show you the health testing they do on their breeding stock. If she has bred any of the dogs she's offering to you, they should all have had health testing done. Ask to see the certificates. Contact the Pug Club of Canada and inquire about common health problems and recommended health checks, as well as their code of ethics (and, with few exceptions, breeders should be members of their breed's national club). (by the way, I'm assuming by "CKC" you mean "Canadian Kennel Club" and not "Continental Kennel Club" - the former is great, the latter is a puppy mill registry which exists to give a false impression of respectability to unethical breeders).
- she should give you a time frame in which you must have the bitch spayed, and she should want to see some confirmation that it has been done, like the spay certificate from the vet (I would prefer to see her spay the bitch before you take her home, frankly, an ethical breeder will want to make sure that there is no chance of an "oops litter", even if you are to pay for the surgery).
Admittedly, when we are talking about an adult dog whose personality should be fairly self-evident, odds are pretty good that even if this is a completely unethical puppy miller, if you like the dog, most other things are less important (especially since you aren't buying the dog, and therefore rewarding and supporting unethical behaviour), but at very least I'd want to get an idea of what kind of breeder you're dealing with.
My email is in my profile if I can help with any of this. Good for you for wanting to take an older dog, retired show dogs can be great pets, if their breeder's done their job, they'll be VERY well-socialized, unfazed by most things, quick to settle into new situations, and at very least crate trained. Good luck with the new Puglet!
posted by biscotti at 9:49 AM on March 26, 2006
Things to consider:
- is there a contract you will be expected to sign? If not, find another breeder. Regardless of the dog's age, an ethical breeder takes responsibility for EVERY dog they produce for the life of the dog. If she does not expect you to sign a contract which clearly and unequivocally states that you MUST return the dog to her should you become unable to keep it for any reason, run away.
- does she want to discuss diet, medical care, training, etc. with you? If not, run away. If she has no suggestions about these things, or if her suggestions seem odd (i.e. she tells you that Purina Dog Chow is perfectly fine, her dogs have never had any health problems ever, or that training isn't important, etc.).
- does she make herself available to you for the forseeable future, to help you with any problems you may have? I talk to my dog's breeder on a regular basis, and visit her a few times a year, she is ALWAYS available to help me with questions or problems. Ethical breeders want to remain involved with you and hear how their dog is doing. Do not be afraid to ask her about this, and ask for references from puppy buyers.
- visit her, see how her dogs are kept and see how they behave. If she has 20 dogs, the odds that the one dog you end up with has had appropriate training and human interaction is quite a bit smaller than if she has 10 dogs.
- if she doesn't show and title her breeding stock, this is a GIGANTIC red flag. There is no good reason for an ethical breeder not to show their dogs, and many ethical reasons that they should show (the purpose of showing is to have someone other than yourself find your dog worthy of breeding from an appearance standpoint, there are many other considerations to take into account before breeding, of course, but appearance is definitely one of them, it's not about being "pretty", it's about looking the way the breed should look). If these bitches have been bred, in most cases, they should have their C(anadian)KC championships.
- how often does she breed and how often have these particular bitches been bred. Most breed clubs have a code of ethics you can read to get an idea of what is acceptable breeding practice. If these bitches have been bred every year, I would worry, if she has more than two or three litters a year, I would worry.
- choosing a female is the right choice, opposite-sex and different age (by 3-4 years) is your best chance of success, but if her dogs are gregarious and Jack likes other dogs, you should do well regardless of age. Be sure that she is willing to take the dog back if it doesn't work out. She should also have a suggestion about which bitch might be the best choice for you and your situation, contrary to what many people think ("look at a litter and pick the one you like"), most knowledgeable and ethical breeders will want to choose the dog for you, or at least narrow down your choices, they are the ones who know their dogs/puppies best, and they are better able to make a good match between dog and owner. She should want to place the right dog in the right home, not get rid of a mouth to feed.
- ask her about health issues in her lines. NO breeder has NEVER had a health problem in their lines, and they should be more than willing to discuss this with you, and should also be eager to show you the health testing they do on their breeding stock. If she has bred any of the dogs she's offering to you, they should all have had health testing done. Ask to see the certificates. Contact the Pug Club of Canada and inquire about common health problems and recommended health checks, as well as their code of ethics (and, with few exceptions, breeders should be members of their breed's national club). (by the way, I'm assuming by "CKC" you mean "Canadian Kennel Club" and not "Continental Kennel Club" - the former is great, the latter is a puppy mill registry which exists to give a false impression of respectability to unethical breeders).
- she should give you a time frame in which you must have the bitch spayed, and she should want to see some confirmation that it has been done, like the spay certificate from the vet (I would prefer to see her spay the bitch before you take her home, frankly, an ethical breeder will want to make sure that there is no chance of an "oops litter", even if you are to pay for the surgery).
Admittedly, when we are talking about an adult dog whose personality should be fairly self-evident, odds are pretty good that even if this is a completely unethical puppy miller, if you like the dog, most other things are less important (especially since you aren't buying the dog, and therefore rewarding and supporting unethical behaviour), but at very least I'd want to get an idea of what kind of breeder you're dealing with.
My email is in my profile if I can help with any of this. Good for you for wanting to take an older dog, retired show dogs can be great pets, if their breeder's done their job, they'll be VERY well-socialized, unfazed by most things, quick to settle into new situations, and at very least crate trained. Good luck with the new Puglet!
posted by biscotti at 9:49 AM on March 26, 2006
I should also mention that appropriate kennel club registration (i.e. not "Continental Kennel Club") in no way implies quality or respectability by itself. It is the bare minimum for purebred dogs, but it doesn't make the breeder ethical, and it doesn't make the dogs good quality. And having "champion lines" doesn't mean much either, and a breeder who makes a big deal of it (especially if they haven't championed any of their own dogs themselves) is not a breeder I would trust, it is not that hard to champion a decent dog with no disqualifying faults, money and perseverance will eventually earn a championship in most cases (which is why it's just one of the things I like to see in a breeding animal), and a breeder who isn't willing to invest that in their breeding stock is ethically questionable to me (most codes of ethics specifically suggest only breeding champions or at least only dogs who have earned championship points). The vast majority of purebred dogs have SOME champions in their lines, having a couple of champions in a pedigree is relatively meaningless.
posted by biscotti at 10:01 AM on March 26, 2006
posted by biscotti at 10:01 AM on March 26, 2006
I suggest that you not worry so much about potential problems. Pugs are bred to be placid and adaptable pets, and I doubt there will be any serious problems between the two dogs in the long term. Maybe my experience with bringing other dogs into the house with our first pug will help you.
My wife and I got our first pug in 2000. In 2004 we adopted a mutt who had been a stray. She snapped at our pug and didn't fit in very well---but within a few months, she adjusted and is now a happy and loving dog. In 2005 we adopted another pug through a local pug rescue organization. He has had troubles with allergies, housebreaking, vision problems, food-aggression, and unexplained episodes of lashing out at our other dogs---but these things are manageable with care. He has become just as beloved as the other two.
There's definitely adjustment that a dog has to do when a new dog is introduced, but I do not think this should ever prevent someone who can provide a good home from adopting a dog. Dogs adjust, and I think they enjoy the company a new pet provides.
posted by jayder at 12:54 PM on March 26, 2006
My wife and I got our first pug in 2000. In 2004 we adopted a mutt who had been a stray. She snapped at our pug and didn't fit in very well---but within a few months, she adjusted and is now a happy and loving dog. In 2005 we adopted another pug through a local pug rescue organization. He has had troubles with allergies, housebreaking, vision problems, food-aggression, and unexplained episodes of lashing out at our other dogs---but these things are manageable with care. He has become just as beloved as the other two.
There's definitely adjustment that a dog has to do when a new dog is introduced, but I do not think this should ever prevent someone who can provide a good home from adopting a dog. Dogs adjust, and I think they enjoy the company a new pet provides.
posted by jayder at 12:54 PM on March 26, 2006
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posted by docgonzo at 8:19 AM on March 26, 2006