Is it unreasonable to ask coparent to plan ahead with concrete times?
December 18, 2020 8:49 AM Subscribe
My coparent and I have differing views on planning ahead and its causing friction. Am I being unreasonable by asking him commit to a pick up time?
My son's father and I have different ideas about time and scheduling. I tend to plan further ahead and with concrete times and he tends toward more flexibility.
The issue I'm running into is having him commit to a time when picking up my son for outings and visits. For example, whenever he says he'll pick our son up on a certain day, he says he doesnt know what time, and he'll let me know the day of. I never what time he's coming and I can't plan around that.
He's off on Tuesdays and was supposed to pick up our son. I asked if he wanted me to drop him off or if he wanted to pick him up. I said, I could drop him off in the morning but it wouldn't be until after 11am. He said, he'd let me know. Tuesday comes and at 12:30pm he texys and he says he'll be by at 4pm our son and that they're going out to eat. I send a text letting him know that everything is closed down because of COVID-19 so they can't do that. He says he doesn't know what to do with our son now and that he's doing laundry so he can't come earlier.
I WFH and have meetings most days so my only window was 11am which has now passed and I can't drop him off until after work around 4:30 - 5ish. I told my coparent to let me know what he'd wanted to do and that if wanted I'd drop him off later. He didn't answer and didn't see him that day at all. For context he sees him 1x (of his own volition)a week so he hasn't seen him in over a week now.
I know not everyone is a planner but I feel that when you children and are managing pick ups and drop offs that you need some concrete planning. Plus, I can't change my whole schedule or wait around all day because, he can't commit to a time until the day off. Sometimes you just have to choose even if it means you miss out on something else.
We ran into this issue again this week. My sons birthday is this weekend and his father said he'd come pick him up on Saturday. I asked what time and he said he didn't know because, he wanted to make as much money as possible at work. He has a service job so he has to be there to make money and if he leaves early he'll lose out on customers.
While I understand that I feel that occasionally he's going to have to choose. I told him that I have some errands I need to run that day and pressed him for a time so I could be available when he came. He said, he didn't know and got irritated. I told him I have some errands to run that day and I didn't know if we'd be home when he wanted to come pick him up.
He asked why no one else in my household would be able to be there when he wanted to pick him up. I'm staying with my folks while my house gets renovated. I told him I don't know since he didn't give me a time so I don't know who will be home and that this was our responsibility not my parents. He got mad and finally committed to a time that afternoon. He seemed to feel that I was being unreasonable but I feel that he has luxury of being flexible because our son lives with me and expects me to accommodate his schedule because he wants to keep things open. I know he has other stuff to do sometimes but so does everyone with and without kids, people just have to pick and choose whats most important.
My son's father and I have different ideas about time and scheduling. I tend to plan further ahead and with concrete times and he tends toward more flexibility.
The issue I'm running into is having him commit to a time when picking up my son for outings and visits. For example, whenever he says he'll pick our son up on a certain day, he says he doesnt know what time, and he'll let me know the day of. I never what time he's coming and I can't plan around that.
He's off on Tuesdays and was supposed to pick up our son. I asked if he wanted me to drop him off or if he wanted to pick him up. I said, I could drop him off in the morning but it wouldn't be until after 11am. He said, he'd let me know. Tuesday comes and at 12:30pm he texys and he says he'll be by at 4pm our son and that they're going out to eat. I send a text letting him know that everything is closed down because of COVID-19 so they can't do that. He says he doesn't know what to do with our son now and that he's doing laundry so he can't come earlier.
I WFH and have meetings most days so my only window was 11am which has now passed and I can't drop him off until after work around 4:30 - 5ish. I told my coparent to let me know what he'd wanted to do and that if wanted I'd drop him off later. He didn't answer and didn't see him that day at all. For context he sees him 1x (of his own volition)a week so he hasn't seen him in over a week now.
I know not everyone is a planner but I feel that when you children and are managing pick ups and drop offs that you need some concrete planning. Plus, I can't change my whole schedule or wait around all day because, he can't commit to a time until the day off. Sometimes you just have to choose even if it means you miss out on something else.
We ran into this issue again this week. My sons birthday is this weekend and his father said he'd come pick him up on Saturday. I asked what time and he said he didn't know because, he wanted to make as much money as possible at work. He has a service job so he has to be there to make money and if he leaves early he'll lose out on customers.
While I understand that I feel that occasionally he's going to have to choose. I told him that I have some errands I need to run that day and pressed him for a time so I could be available when he came. He said, he didn't know and got irritated. I told him I have some errands to run that day and I didn't know if we'd be home when he wanted to come pick him up.
He asked why no one else in my household would be able to be there when he wanted to pick him up. I'm staying with my folks while my house gets renovated. I told him I don't know since he didn't give me a time so I don't know who will be home and that this was our responsibility not my parents. He got mad and finally committed to a time that afternoon. He seemed to feel that I was being unreasonable but I feel that he has luxury of being flexible because our son lives with me and expects me to accommodate his schedule because he wants to keep things open. I know he has other stuff to do sometimes but so does everyone with and without kids, people just have to pick and choose whats most important.
You are not being unreasonable. Kids need predictability, especially in a co-parenting situation, and you deserve for your time to be respected.
I think one solution might be to unilaterally communicate to your co-parent that you will drop your son off at 11am on the days when they are visiting. Dad should align his schedule so that he doesn’t work on those days, that’s on him. If that doesn’t work, you may unfortunately need to settle this in court.
posted by mai at 8:56 AM on December 18, 2020 [12 favorites]
I think one solution might be to unilaterally communicate to your co-parent that you will drop your son off at 11am on the days when they are visiting. Dad should align his schedule so that he doesn’t work on those days, that’s on him. If that doesn’t work, you may unfortunately need to settle this in court.
posted by mai at 8:56 AM on December 18, 2020 [12 favorites]
This is 100% unacceptable behavior on his part. This is a manipulative power play, or simply the actions of someone too immature to understand and care about the stress it is causing both you and your child.
If he has court mandated visitation, do as bq says and log this all for a month. Then drag his ass back to court and let the judge set stricter boundaries around this, or take away visitation altogether. If it's not a court order and just a personal arrangement, I would suggest curtailing these visits to set, specific times you chose, and if he isnt on time, he loses that visit. You have to create boundaries here if you don't have a judge to do it for you.
You may think this isn't affecting your kid (I bet you do though). It is. And it will only get worse as he gets older and learns that people who are supposed to care about him are unreliable. That sets up a whole swath of awful ideas in a kid's mind that can manifest in really tragic ways later on in his life.
Please take charge of this situation as soon as possible, for your son's sake at least. I know how it feels to have an unreliable parent, and I wouldn't wish the emotional and psychological ramifications on anyone.
posted by ananci at 9:03 AM on December 18, 2020 [19 favorites]
If he has court mandated visitation, do as bq says and log this all for a month. Then drag his ass back to court and let the judge set stricter boundaries around this, or take away visitation altogether. If it's not a court order and just a personal arrangement, I would suggest curtailing these visits to set, specific times you chose, and if he isnt on time, he loses that visit. You have to create boundaries here if you don't have a judge to do it for you.
You may think this isn't affecting your kid (I bet you do though). It is. And it will only get worse as he gets older and learns that people who are supposed to care about him are unreliable. That sets up a whole swath of awful ideas in a kid's mind that can manifest in really tragic ways later on in his life.
Please take charge of this situation as soon as possible, for your son's sake at least. I know how it feels to have an unreliable parent, and I wouldn't wish the emotional and psychological ramifications on anyone.
posted by ananci at 9:03 AM on December 18, 2020 [19 favorites]
of course you're not unreasonable. All shared plans require decisions as to what time they will happen. That's just a basic life requirement. You don't invite people to a dinner party and say "I don't know what time."
This goes doubly true for a kid, where there's an emotional requirement for reliability, and triply true for a child of divorce who REALLY needs as much stability and reliability as can be provided.
Force your ex's hand. Don't wait for him to pick up the kid: bring the kid to him. If he's not there, obviously don't leave the kid, but keep a record and then take him back to court.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:04 AM on December 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
This goes doubly true for a kid, where there's an emotional requirement for reliability, and triply true for a child of divorce who REALLY needs as much stability and reliability as can be provided.
Force your ex's hand. Don't wait for him to pick up the kid: bring the kid to him. If he's not there, obviously don't leave the kid, but keep a record and then take him back to court.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:04 AM on December 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
This is totally unacceptable and is not how shared custody arrangements usually work. Barring any emergency, pickups and drop offs need to happen on a predictable and set schedule. The posters above are correct that family courts do not look at this sort of behavior favorably. Keep records and correspondence if you can. Children can internalize a parent's lack of reliability with custody as rejection.
I think there's also a very good chance that he enjoys being able to manipulate and control your schedule by being so irresponsible/flaky about his pickups. Days that he has custody need to have a set schedule and not a weekly exploration of what times work best for him.
posted by quince at 9:04 AM on December 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
I think there's also a very good chance that he enjoys being able to manipulate and control your schedule by being so irresponsible/flaky about his pickups. Days that he has custody need to have a set schedule and not a weekly exploration of what times work best for him.
posted by quince at 9:04 AM on December 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
You're not being unreasonable here, but you're probably not going to change his behavior either. Here's what I would try to do in your situation (I am a planner as well, so this is very hard - I get it.)
I would just plan on him not picking up your son. Last Tuesday, after you volunteered to drop off son, and father says no, he'll let you know, then you just go about your day, expecting to hold onto son all day. Father says he'll pick kid up at 4 for dinner. You just say 'ok' or 'sorry, I'm not home at that time, how about 5'. Nothing else. He can do the emotional labor to figure out that places are closed. Or he can get take out, or whatever.
This week, birthday: he says I'll let you know. You say, "I'll be doing errands. I may or may not be home when you want me there. But if you let me know ahead, I can plan to be home." He says I'll let you know. He texts and says 3pm. You say I'm out. Doesn't work. How about 4:30. He either says ok or not.
You don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate his lack of planning. Try to just go with his flow. He knows by now that when he doesn't make plans ahead that sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. You don't need to rush yourself home just to meet his time when he's not doing the same for you. Give yourself the same respect that you're trying to give him.
posted by hydra77 at 9:07 AM on December 18, 2020 [23 favorites]
I would just plan on him not picking up your son. Last Tuesday, after you volunteered to drop off son, and father says no, he'll let you know, then you just go about your day, expecting to hold onto son all day. Father says he'll pick kid up at 4 for dinner. You just say 'ok' or 'sorry, I'm not home at that time, how about 5'. Nothing else. He can do the emotional labor to figure out that places are closed. Or he can get take out, or whatever.
This week, birthday: he says I'll let you know. You say, "I'll be doing errands. I may or may not be home when you want me there. But if you let me know ahead, I can plan to be home." He says I'll let you know. He texts and says 3pm. You say I'm out. Doesn't work. How about 4:30. He either says ok or not.
You don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate his lack of planning. Try to just go with his flow. He knows by now that when he doesn't make plans ahead that sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. You don't need to rush yourself home just to meet his time when he's not doing the same for you. Give yourself the same respect that you're trying to give him.
posted by hydra77 at 9:07 AM on December 18, 2020 [23 favorites]
Oh gosh. What a terrible father.
My dad used to pick me up every Saturday basically whenever he felt like it. I'd sit there waiting for him from 9 am,and waiting, and waiting, my irritated mother waiting with me, and he'd roll in at 12.30 (because he "had to shop for shoes") first. Then we'd drive to his place where he'd water the plants and read his mail, leaving me to wait for him in the car for 20 Minutes or half an hour. Then on to wherever. I'd be hungry, and get my lunch (rice with whatever frozen vegs were in the freezer) at 2 or 3 pm.
I know this so precisely because I just went over it with my therapist - I'm 45 years old and it's still causing me problems. He wasn't a bad person, he really tried hard to connect in other ways, just self centered and disorganised and blissfully ignorant of mental loads and relational responsibility.
His disorganisation and failure to prioritise me made me feel worthless and unloved for much of my life. For most of my 20s I would wake up on a Saturday, stomach clenched, heart beating hard, only to remember with relief that it was okay, I was an adult and those Saturday morning waits were no longer happening.
I'm sorry to have no advice for you, but I want to support you in this: His behaviour will leave lasting scars and you are right to push back on it.
posted by Omnomnom at 9:13 AM on December 18, 2020 [75 favorites]
My dad used to pick me up every Saturday basically whenever he felt like it. I'd sit there waiting for him from 9 am,and waiting, and waiting, my irritated mother waiting with me, and he'd roll in at 12.30 (because he "had to shop for shoes") first. Then we'd drive to his place where he'd water the plants and read his mail, leaving me to wait for him in the car for 20 Minutes or half an hour. Then on to wherever. I'd be hungry, and get my lunch (rice with whatever frozen vegs were in the freezer) at 2 or 3 pm.
I know this so precisely because I just went over it with my therapist - I'm 45 years old and it's still causing me problems. He wasn't a bad person, he really tried hard to connect in other ways, just self centered and disorganised and blissfully ignorant of mental loads and relational responsibility.
His disorganisation and failure to prioritise me made me feel worthless and unloved for much of my life. For most of my 20s I would wake up on a Saturday, stomach clenched, heart beating hard, only to remember with relief that it was okay, I was an adult and those Saturday morning waits were no longer happening.
I'm sorry to have no advice for you, but I want to support you in this: His behaviour will leave lasting scars and you are right to push back on it.
posted by Omnomnom at 9:13 AM on December 18, 2020 [75 favorites]
I think there's also a very good chance that he enjoys being able to manipulate and control your schedule by being so irresponsible/flaky about his pickups.
I think the same, and so I think the ideas presented above related to unilaterally announcing a drop off time and then taking son over will actually backfire monumentally - they will give coparent more gleeful room for manipulation because the inconvenience to you has actually increased; while also increasing the negative emotional blowback on son. Not sure how old your son is so it may look different based on age, but I am visualizing son getting dressed and ready to go over to Coparent's and Coparent has arranged not to be there so that Coparent can mess with you, so you are driving back home with kid who got excited and then rejected by Coparent, which to me feels harsher than alternative ways of handling things (*). So don't do that to yourself or your kid. Also, your custody order is unlikely to authorize you to set unilateral visitation times.
(*) Again, depending on age, are you sort of insulating son a bit? Not quite the same thing but with playdates, I always know in my mind the other family may need to cancel for myriad reasons. So I don't hype my kid up for it and let him see it as a certainty, rather I talk about "Maybe we can do this with so-and-so if it works out for both families that day" until I get a firm re-confirm from the other parent on the day.
I don't think I can really give you any advice on what I would do/think you should do, without knowing what your custody agreement says and what your appetite to move for enforcement/modification is. I hope/assume you are communicating exclusively in writing with coparent about these issues.
Depending on the custody order, one practical option might be to, a few days days ahead, give Coparent say 3 time slots to choose from for the following week. Time slots that are convenient for you, that you can block out to live with if they don't happen. "For the week of January 3, we are available for you to pick up kid on Sunday at 1pm, Wednesday at 4pm, or Saturday at 3pm. You can let me know by Saturday January 2 which you are going to take, and if you haven't picked one by then we will go ahead and make other commitments with our time so Kid may not be available." But again, the appropriateness of this depends on the custody order and I would run it by your family lawyer first.
Does your custody order require you to drop off for custody visits? If not, I would stop making that offer. Sounds like you are trying to sort of making the actual custody exchange more likely by making it more convenient for Coparent, for the purpose of helping your son by supporting the Coparent-son relationship, but it sounds like that is adding enough stress to your already full, busy plate that you really don't have to put that pressure on yourself. But again, depends on what custody order says.
(If you don't HAVE a custody order and you have just decided to try to work this out cooperatively together, it's clear that cooperation isn't working so it may be time to get one.)
posted by MustangMamaVE at 9:26 AM on December 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
I think the same, and so I think the ideas presented above related to unilaterally announcing a drop off time and then taking son over will actually backfire monumentally - they will give coparent more gleeful room for manipulation because the inconvenience to you has actually increased; while also increasing the negative emotional blowback on son. Not sure how old your son is so it may look different based on age, but I am visualizing son getting dressed and ready to go over to Coparent's and Coparent has arranged not to be there so that Coparent can mess with you, so you are driving back home with kid who got excited and then rejected by Coparent, which to me feels harsher than alternative ways of handling things (*). So don't do that to yourself or your kid. Also, your custody order is unlikely to authorize you to set unilateral visitation times.
(*) Again, depending on age, are you sort of insulating son a bit? Not quite the same thing but with playdates, I always know in my mind the other family may need to cancel for myriad reasons. So I don't hype my kid up for it and let him see it as a certainty, rather I talk about "Maybe we can do this with so-and-so if it works out for both families that day" until I get a firm re-confirm from the other parent on the day.
I don't think I can really give you any advice on what I would do/think you should do, without knowing what your custody agreement says and what your appetite to move for enforcement/modification is. I hope/assume you are communicating exclusively in writing with coparent about these issues.
Depending on the custody order, one practical option might be to, a few days days ahead, give Coparent say 3 time slots to choose from for the following week. Time slots that are convenient for you, that you can block out to live with if they don't happen. "For the week of January 3, we are available for you to pick up kid on Sunday at 1pm, Wednesday at 4pm, or Saturday at 3pm. You can let me know by Saturday January 2 which you are going to take, and if you haven't picked one by then we will go ahead and make other commitments with our time so Kid may not be available." But again, the appropriateness of this depends on the custody order and I would run it by your family lawyer first.
Does your custody order require you to drop off for custody visits? If not, I would stop making that offer. Sounds like you are trying to sort of making the actual custody exchange more likely by making it more convenient for Coparent, for the purpose of helping your son by supporting the Coparent-son relationship, but it sounds like that is adding enough stress to your already full, busy plate that you really don't have to put that pressure on yourself. But again, depends on what custody order says.
(If you don't HAVE a custody order and you have just decided to try to work this out cooperatively together, it's clear that cooperation isn't working so it may be time to get one.)
posted by MustangMamaVE at 9:26 AM on December 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
Sounds like you are trying to sort of making the actual custody exchange more likely by making it more convenient for Coparent, for the purpose of helping your son by supporting the Coparent-son relationship,
I am not a parent. But I have seen this countless times on Teen Mom, and once in real life. A mom is bending over backwards to facilitate a relationship between dad and kid; but that effort is either wasted or used against her. It's time for him to either commit to a time or it's not your problem if he misses the opportunity (That's what it is! Adults who want opportunities take steps to achieve them! As well as an obligation, of course. But he's not even meeting obligation) to spend time with his kid.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:32 AM on December 18, 2020 [8 favorites]
I am not a parent. But I have seen this countless times on Teen Mom, and once in real life. A mom is bending over backwards to facilitate a relationship between dad and kid; but that effort is either wasted or used against her. It's time for him to either commit to a time or it's not your problem if he misses the opportunity (That's what it is! Adults who want opportunities take steps to achieve them! As well as an obligation, of course. But he's not even meeting obligation) to spend time with his kid.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:32 AM on December 18, 2020 [8 favorites]
I had a coparent who thought it was fine for him to cancel picking up the kids if it wasn't convenient for him, but he only did it a few times. In my situation, I thought it was rooted in the gendered idea that I was the primary caretaker and he was "helping." It's sort of like the way men sometimes refer to time with their own children as "babysitting," which women never do. (In fact, he once specifically said he was not my babysitter when cancelling his time with the kids.) This is a nightmare and not something you should have to put up with.
Are you capable of just putting your foot down? Like when he says he can't give you a time, just repeat that you need a specific time. And if he still balks, say he either gives you a specific time or there's no visit. (This is, of course, subject to whatever your legal arrangements are, but I agree that a judge isn't going to look kindly on what he's doing here.).
Whether this is a manipulative power play or an oblivious dude who just doesn't think that other people's lives really matter, I cannot say, but this is not normal and you should not have to put up with it. I would say the main thing to be careful about is having your kid expecting a visit and not getting one - it was absolutely heartbreaking to see that with my own children.
posted by FencingGal at 9:43 AM on December 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
Are you capable of just putting your foot down? Like when he says he can't give you a time, just repeat that you need a specific time. And if he still balks, say he either gives you a specific time or there's no visit. (This is, of course, subject to whatever your legal arrangements are, but I agree that a judge isn't going to look kindly on what he's doing here.).
Whether this is a manipulative power play or an oblivious dude who just doesn't think that other people's lives really matter, I cannot say, but this is not normal and you should not have to put up with it. I would say the main thing to be careful about is having your kid expecting a visit and not getting one - it was absolutely heartbreaking to see that with my own children.
posted by FencingGal at 9:43 AM on December 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
Meet him half way.
The guy is flexible about his plans, so be flexible with yours.
If he can't pick drop your son off until four and four is a time dictated by his convenience, then cheerfully make your plans and let him know. "I'll be home at six, you can drop him off then."
He wants to pick up your kid at five? You don't need to change your plans to make that possible. "No, he likes to watch his show at five, don't show up before six thirty, that'll give him time to watch it and get changed out of his jammies to be ready for you."
Your co-parent is not necessarily being malicious, he's just valuing his own time and being flexible with it. It is often better to switch your gears to match someone whose style and abilities are different then yours than it is to be frustrated that they are not more like you. If you are playing badminton with someone who misses the birdie at least fifty percent of the time unless it's a real easy shot, then trying to get a good fast energizing game in is going to drive you mad and likely turn you into a furious person who treats the other player badly, fuming, glaring and making hurtful remarks. At the end of the day you'll be much more pissed than if you had shrugged and just hacked around swinging at the birdie and picking it up out of the grass and chatting lightly while you waited for the other player to find the birdie behind the rhododendrons.
The important things here are your child's safety and your child's emotional and physical well being. If he knows he is safe and having fun with either parent for as long as he is with the parent then he will probably be able to adapt well to the uncertainties in the schedule and times. He won't adapt well if his parents are cross and bickering. He will adapt badly if there are constant undercurrents like, "Your screwy mother demands I pick you up at impossible times" or "Your stupid father couldn't be on time if he was trying to get on the ark." At that point your son is a pawn and will soon start feeling that he is an inconvenience and the source of all the anger in the family, and probably that it would be better if half of him didn't exist and he only spent time with the parent whose needs worry him more than the other.
I get that it is frustrating to you to not know when you can have him and when you get to give him back, but the day is soon a-coming when it will be important for your son's well being when HE gets to dictate to both of you who he wants to be with and for how long. You're going to need to get flexible about that and hang any custody agreements. If your son wants to hang out much longer with your co-parent because his best bud from grade six can hang out with him there, both you and your co-parent will need to seriously do everything you can to accommodate that. If your son doesn't want to see your co-parent, because he hates your co-parent's new roommate then you and your co-parent are going to have to accommodate that, and the time with the co-parent may have to all be scheduled around the new roommate's work schedule to make sure they occur when the roommate is at work.
I get how frustrating it is when someone won't let you make firm plans. It's anxiety provoking because you still have to wait and find out what is going to happen and can feel like you start anything and may waste time waiting. So make your own firm plans the way your co-parent is doing, without hostility and without retaliating, keep it relaxed and totally casual. "If that's late for you I can keep him overnight and you can dash over first thing in the morning." "If there a day next week you're not working, do you want to get a day with him then instead?"
Your co-partner is an extension of your son, and you have to love him because of that - when I say love, I don't mean enable, anymore than loving a two year old means you let them throw their lunch on the couch and let them run screaming out the front door. But it means keeping in mind that any arrangement that makes any of the three of you unhappy is not acceptable and that you three need to work around any personal needs. If your son has to get his meds, if you need to make firm plans, if your co-parent needs to make flexible plans: All of those are needs that have to be met. You can't smugly let your co-parent lose this one, because if you do your son loses too. You can't let yourself lose either, because again, your son will see that, and he will be losing too.
So when your co-parent says he doesn't know when he will be picking your son up, but it will be sometime between eleven AM and 7 PM depending on work and his car, you are quite entitled to say firmly. "No problem, we'll be home until two, and then at two we'll be on the road until five, and if you're not here at six I'll either drop him off for you or you can pick him up at his grandma's."
And then because you are a parent and solely and wholly responsible for him - the same way his other parent is solely and wholly responsible for him - you figure out how to look after him if the childcare arrangement breaks down and Grandma isn't available, the same way you do when the sitter calls in sick, or there is a snow day.
Your co-parent is happy to tell you when he can do pick ups and drop offs. It's okay to be the same way. It's also possible that your co-parent will start to become more firm with his plans if you are flexible with yours. As soon as you set boundaries you set up a situation where negotiation becomes more possible. Your co-parent gets to decide if he wants to rush and make it to do the drop off by four to get there before you go out, or wait until seven when you'll be back home. He might even start being a little bit firmer with his plans to avoid having to wait for you when he finds out you won't be waiting for him.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:50 AM on December 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
The guy is flexible about his plans, so be flexible with yours.
If he can't pick drop your son off until four and four is a time dictated by his convenience, then cheerfully make your plans and let him know. "I'll be home at six, you can drop him off then."
He wants to pick up your kid at five? You don't need to change your plans to make that possible. "No, he likes to watch his show at five, don't show up before six thirty, that'll give him time to watch it and get changed out of his jammies to be ready for you."
Your co-parent is not necessarily being malicious, he's just valuing his own time and being flexible with it. It is often better to switch your gears to match someone whose style and abilities are different then yours than it is to be frustrated that they are not more like you. If you are playing badminton with someone who misses the birdie at least fifty percent of the time unless it's a real easy shot, then trying to get a good fast energizing game in is going to drive you mad and likely turn you into a furious person who treats the other player badly, fuming, glaring and making hurtful remarks. At the end of the day you'll be much more pissed than if you had shrugged and just hacked around swinging at the birdie and picking it up out of the grass and chatting lightly while you waited for the other player to find the birdie behind the rhododendrons.
The important things here are your child's safety and your child's emotional and physical well being. If he knows he is safe and having fun with either parent for as long as he is with the parent then he will probably be able to adapt well to the uncertainties in the schedule and times. He won't adapt well if his parents are cross and bickering. He will adapt badly if there are constant undercurrents like, "Your screwy mother demands I pick you up at impossible times" or "Your stupid father couldn't be on time if he was trying to get on the ark." At that point your son is a pawn and will soon start feeling that he is an inconvenience and the source of all the anger in the family, and probably that it would be better if half of him didn't exist and he only spent time with the parent whose needs worry him more than the other.
I get that it is frustrating to you to not know when you can have him and when you get to give him back, but the day is soon a-coming when it will be important for your son's well being when HE gets to dictate to both of you who he wants to be with and for how long. You're going to need to get flexible about that and hang any custody agreements. If your son wants to hang out much longer with your co-parent because his best bud from grade six can hang out with him there, both you and your co-parent will need to seriously do everything you can to accommodate that. If your son doesn't want to see your co-parent, because he hates your co-parent's new roommate then you and your co-parent are going to have to accommodate that, and the time with the co-parent may have to all be scheduled around the new roommate's work schedule to make sure they occur when the roommate is at work.
I get how frustrating it is when someone won't let you make firm plans. It's anxiety provoking because you still have to wait and find out what is going to happen and can feel like you start anything and may waste time waiting. So make your own firm plans the way your co-parent is doing, without hostility and without retaliating, keep it relaxed and totally casual. "If that's late for you I can keep him overnight and you can dash over first thing in the morning." "If there a day next week you're not working, do you want to get a day with him then instead?"
Your co-partner is an extension of your son, and you have to love him because of that - when I say love, I don't mean enable, anymore than loving a two year old means you let them throw their lunch on the couch and let them run screaming out the front door. But it means keeping in mind that any arrangement that makes any of the three of you unhappy is not acceptable and that you three need to work around any personal needs. If your son has to get his meds, if you need to make firm plans, if your co-parent needs to make flexible plans: All of those are needs that have to be met. You can't smugly let your co-parent lose this one, because if you do your son loses too. You can't let yourself lose either, because again, your son will see that, and he will be losing too.
So when your co-parent says he doesn't know when he will be picking your son up, but it will be sometime between eleven AM and 7 PM depending on work and his car, you are quite entitled to say firmly. "No problem, we'll be home until two, and then at two we'll be on the road until five, and if you're not here at six I'll either drop him off for you or you can pick him up at his grandma's."
And then because you are a parent and solely and wholly responsible for him - the same way his other parent is solely and wholly responsible for him - you figure out how to look after him if the childcare arrangement breaks down and Grandma isn't available, the same way you do when the sitter calls in sick, or there is a snow day.
Your co-parent is happy to tell you when he can do pick ups and drop offs. It's okay to be the same way. It's also possible that your co-parent will start to become more firm with his plans if you are flexible with yours. As soon as you set boundaries you set up a situation where negotiation becomes more possible. Your co-parent gets to decide if he wants to rush and make it to do the drop off by four to get there before you go out, or wait until seven when you'll be back home. He might even start being a little bit firmer with his plans to avoid having to wait for you when he finds out you won't be waiting for him.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:50 AM on December 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
Keep in mind that with cell phones you don't need to know what time your son will be picked up and dropped off. You just need to have his go-bag ready. It's pefectly reasonable to take your son to the park with his go-bag, and if your co-parent doesn't meet you there you can do the hand-off in the parking lot of the store where you are running errands, or at the sitter's house after you have dropped him off when the errands are done, and even reasonable to have your son get picked up by you at the sitter after all that because your co-partner was able to pick up another shift unexpectedly.
The problem sometimes can be based on your wanting to count on your co-parent so that you can get time off as the parent on duty. That would be good, and you absolutely deserve and need some reliable time off duty, but your co-parent is not the person whose job it is to provide you with that. Custody time with dad is for your kid, not for you. You're the one that has to ensure you find a way to get some reliable time off duty. It simply doesn't work if you regard time off as something you are entitled to get from your child's father. Time with his father is something that is good for your son, so an opportunity that you are grabbing for him, even when it inconveniences you.
Watch out in case the basic problem here is really that you need some reliable kid-free time and are blaming the child's father for the lack. Part of why parenting is often so brutally awful is because getting your own needs met can be logistically impossible and the struggle to do so can make everyone mad at each other, and make everyone feel isolated, unappreciated and unloved and then still end up failing.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:11 AM on December 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
The problem sometimes can be based on your wanting to count on your co-parent so that you can get time off as the parent on duty. That would be good, and you absolutely deserve and need some reliable time off duty, but your co-parent is not the person whose job it is to provide you with that. Custody time with dad is for your kid, not for you. You're the one that has to ensure you find a way to get some reliable time off duty. It simply doesn't work if you regard time off as something you are entitled to get from your child's father. Time with his father is something that is good for your son, so an opportunity that you are grabbing for him, even when it inconveniences you.
Watch out in case the basic problem here is really that you need some reliable kid-free time and are blaming the child's father for the lack. Part of why parenting is often so brutally awful is because getting your own needs met can be logistically impossible and the struggle to do so can make everyone mad at each other, and make everyone feel isolated, unappreciated and unloved and then still end up failing.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:11 AM on December 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Just to add a little more context, I am my sons primary caretaker and he lives with me. We don't have an official custody agreement, his father does video call 1-2x per week and sees him 1x per week. My family babysits so it's not a matter of needing dad to give me my me time, more that he needs to set a time even if its block of time or afternoon or morning etc. If you see your child once a week on your off day that doesn't seem to be unreasonable to ask what time. I have implemented some boundaries such as we're not here because I didn't know when you were coming but honestly to me this just feels like a cass of people make time to do what they want to do and perhaps I should just back off.
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 10:28 AM on December 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 10:28 AM on December 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm a pretty loose planner in terms of meet-up times, but egads, this is beyond. This business with him "not knowing" anything about what time he'll arrive is so passive-aggressive. The way that one "knows" such a thing is by making a decision. It doesn't have to be a to-the-minute appointment, just a window.
The logistical issue of your availability can probably be solved with compromises, but sheesh, has it occurred to him that he's expecting his kid to just perpetually wait around to be ready for his visit? He needs to put himself in his son's shoes and be more respectful of his feelings.
posted by desuetude at 10:40 AM on December 18, 2020 [16 favorites]
The logistical issue of your availability can probably be solved with compromises, but sheesh, has it occurred to him that he's expecting his kid to just perpetually wait around to be ready for his visit? He needs to put himself in his son's shoes and be more respectful of his feelings.
posted by desuetude at 10:40 AM on December 18, 2020 [16 favorites]
You are not being unreasonable. Asking your co-parent to show up at a specific time one day a week is like bare minimum expectations for an adult. (Aside: it doesn’t matter if his lateness is because of his job. Adults don’t use the necessity of working as an excuse as to why they can’t meet other basic life obligations.)
I would be direct: “it is not working for me to not have a scheduled time when you pick up son. Let me know what time works for you consistently so I can plan around that.“ Give him a 15 minute window to show around that time, if he doesn’t, leave the house, he missed his opportunity for a visit. I know some people will say this is harsh and they are right. You need to be harsh (calm, but firm) with someone like this because they will push and push and push until you demonstrate you’re not going to budge.
posted by scantee at 10:54 AM on December 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
I would be direct: “it is not working for me to not have a scheduled time when you pick up son. Let me know what time works for you consistently so I can plan around that.“ Give him a 15 minute window to show around that time, if he doesn’t, leave the house, he missed his opportunity for a visit. I know some people will say this is harsh and they are right. You need to be harsh (calm, but firm) with someone like this because they will push and push and push until you demonstrate you’re not going to budge.
posted by scantee at 10:54 AM on December 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
Are you asking him each time what his time line looks like? Does he ever initiate visits? What happens if you just don’t say anything to him to schedule the visit? Does it then just not happen because he’s not taking the initiative? If you’re the one initiating and pushing the visits, I’d probably just stop making the effort. Make him come to you to figure times out.
Another way to approach this is to not ask him what his schedule is for picking up the kid but instead just let him know what YOUR schedule/availability is. You tell him that kid is available at 2:30 (or whenever) Or after 6:30 on Tuesday and that you can either drop him off or have him ready for him to pick up and that no other time is ideal unless you have plenty of time to rework your day (a day or two in advance notice). He can work around your schedule. If he’s not moving mountains or making a loose schedule for his day to see his kid then I wouldn’t bother stressing about it and having your entire day on hold.
posted by Sassyfras at 12:51 PM on December 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
Another way to approach this is to not ask him what his schedule is for picking up the kid but instead just let him know what YOUR schedule/availability is. You tell him that kid is available at 2:30 (or whenever) Or after 6:30 on Tuesday and that you can either drop him off or have him ready for him to pick up and that no other time is ideal unless you have plenty of time to rework your day (a day or two in advance notice). He can work around your schedule. If he’s not moving mountains or making a loose schedule for his day to see his kid then I wouldn’t bother stressing about it and having your entire day on hold.
posted by Sassyfras at 12:51 PM on December 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
You are making this a control battle. You have created a scenario in which good people plan and bad parents, like this guy (in your mind), won't make firm plans. No one wins control battles. Being "right" doesn't get you anything. Some people are planners and some people aren't. You are. He is not. You can't make him one. You want to be right here, and for him to wrong. But I want to second what Jane the Brown said. This doesn't make him bad or wrong or terrible. I think you need to be realistic and stop trying to force him to be like you. It sounds like he wants to parent. This in particular concerns me:
Tuesday comes and at 12:30pm he texys and he says he'll be by at 4pm our son and that they're going out to eat. I send a text letting him know that everything is closed down because of COVID-19 so they can't do that.
He is going to need to figure this stuff out on his own. You are telling him to give you a specific time, and then he does, and then you object to his plans. So you are sending him mixed messages too. When he texts and says he'll be by at 4pm and they're going out to eat, you can respond with, "See you at 4pm" or, if you must, "Gosh, I thought things were closed, but maybe take out? See you at 4pm." Stop trying to manage him.
It sounds like his work on Saturday goes to a certain time but might end early. In that case, you could make a plan that he'll pick up the child at 6pm (or whatever is the latest possible time), but if he finishes early, he'll check in and see if he can get the child early. So then you can go about your day. Or, if your parents can be there, just make arrangements with them. That's his job, and his means of income. You seem to want him to choose to finish work early to prove he wants to parent this child. I know this is frustrating for you, but you are also being really inflexible.
People are are making grand statements at "how this works." Well, I am a parent will two kids, one of whom is with me 99% of the time, and one 50% of the time, and my kids' dad and I are super flexible about pick up and drop off times. He usually works on Sundays, our exchange day, but the end of his can vary, and we rarely know what we're doing more than a day in advance, and often it changes that day. And I am often running late. And this has been working fine for us and for our kid (who is old enough to sometimes have his own requests too).
It sounds like you have a lot of resentment and hostility. I really want to encourage you to get into therapy and work through your feelings about this man. Also, consider working with a mediator with the father to have a conversation about all this too. You are wanting him to behave a certain way, but you don't have a custody agreement that you've both worked through. He isn't being great, but neither are you.
You and this man have a very long relationship ahead of you. I think you are asking the wrong questions. Instead of asking if you are unreasonable, I'd encourage you to think more about how you can make this work. That's going to be much better for all three of you, especially your child. It's not about being right.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:51 PM on December 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
Tuesday comes and at 12:30pm he texys and he says he'll be by at 4pm our son and that they're going out to eat. I send a text letting him know that everything is closed down because of COVID-19 so they can't do that.
He is going to need to figure this stuff out on his own. You are telling him to give you a specific time, and then he does, and then you object to his plans. So you are sending him mixed messages too. When he texts and says he'll be by at 4pm and they're going out to eat, you can respond with, "See you at 4pm" or, if you must, "Gosh, I thought things were closed, but maybe take out? See you at 4pm." Stop trying to manage him.
It sounds like his work on Saturday goes to a certain time but might end early. In that case, you could make a plan that he'll pick up the child at 6pm (or whatever is the latest possible time), but if he finishes early, he'll check in and see if he can get the child early. So then you can go about your day. Or, if your parents can be there, just make arrangements with them. That's his job, and his means of income. You seem to want him to choose to finish work early to prove he wants to parent this child. I know this is frustrating for you, but you are also being really inflexible.
People are are making grand statements at "how this works." Well, I am a parent will two kids, one of whom is with me 99% of the time, and one 50% of the time, and my kids' dad and I are super flexible about pick up and drop off times. He usually works on Sundays, our exchange day, but the end of his can vary, and we rarely know what we're doing more than a day in advance, and often it changes that day. And I am often running late. And this has been working fine for us and for our kid (who is old enough to sometimes have his own requests too).
It sounds like you have a lot of resentment and hostility. I really want to encourage you to get into therapy and work through your feelings about this man. Also, consider working with a mediator with the father to have a conversation about all this too. You are wanting him to behave a certain way, but you don't have a custody agreement that you've both worked through. He isn't being great, but neither are you.
You and this man have a very long relationship ahead of you. I think you are asking the wrong questions. Instead of asking if you are unreasonable, I'd encourage you to think more about how you can make this work. That's going to be much better for all three of you, especially your child. It's not about being right.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:51 PM on December 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
I have a close family member who now essentially refuses to make arrangements for anything in advance. They are profoundly narcissistic. I don't think this is a coincidence. It's simple physics, people can't be two places at one time, they have to choose to get together. Flexibility is a great thing to the degree that it helps people deal with uncertain situations, such as variable job responsibilities, personal health, traffic, etc. Things that are outside of individual control. It's also a great thing when an activity is optional. I hope the two of you are simply coming at this from different attitudes and can find a common ground.
posted by wnissen at 3:04 PM on December 18, 2020
posted by wnissen at 3:04 PM on December 18, 2020
Your coparent must manage to make it to work on time, catch planes and buses according to schedule etc - they are capable of meeting firm arrangements. So when he says he doesn’t know what time he’ll be there and can’t possibly make a plan, it’s not because he can’t, it’s because he doesn’t want to. Now that might be because he’s passive aggressive, or overscheduled or just doesn’t give a damn but the point that I’m making is that if this person manages to make it to other things that do actually matter, they ARE capable of it.
He gets away with this with you because there are no consequences and you work your life around him (which may be why he does it, who knows.) If it were me, I wouldn’t let him set the schedule beyond asking him what day he has available. Then tell him you have plans but you’ll be there so he can pick up junior at x time because you have to leave 15 minutes after. Then follow through and leave with kid if he doesn’t turn up, so coparent misses out on his visit. Repeat until he gets the message that if he wants time with child, he needs to turn up on time - you don’t wait around all day on his pleasure.
Also, to spare the child’s feelings, I wouldn’t tell them they’re catching up with his dad because chances are this will fall through the first few times as dad attempts to jerk you around. Just pack a bag and if dad turns up, great, surprise visit. If he doesn’t your kid never needs to know that they were ever supposed to catch up and that coparent is unreliable.
You need to start enforcing boundaries. It’s not punishing him, it’s for the benefit of everyone because otherwise you’ll just harbour resentment which will filter down and that’s bad all around.
posted by Jubey at 3:23 PM on December 18, 2020 [6 favorites]
He gets away with this with you because there are no consequences and you work your life around him (which may be why he does it, who knows.) If it were me, I wouldn’t let him set the schedule beyond asking him what day he has available. Then tell him you have plans but you’ll be there so he can pick up junior at x time because you have to leave 15 minutes after. Then follow through and leave with kid if he doesn’t turn up, so coparent misses out on his visit. Repeat until he gets the message that if he wants time with child, he needs to turn up on time - you don’t wait around all day on his pleasure.
Also, to spare the child’s feelings, I wouldn’t tell them they’re catching up with his dad because chances are this will fall through the first few times as dad attempts to jerk you around. Just pack a bag and if dad turns up, great, surprise visit. If he doesn’t your kid never needs to know that they were ever supposed to catch up and that coparent is unreliable.
You need to start enforcing boundaries. It’s not punishing him, it’s for the benefit of everyone because otherwise you’ll just harbour resentment which will filter down and that’s bad all around.
posted by Jubey at 3:23 PM on December 18, 2020 [6 favorites]
well, this is the green, so there will always be someone to tell a poster that they are wrong and unreasonable for not wanting maggots in their kitchen; or not wanting their spouse to insult them; or asking their co-parent to show up on time to pick up their kid; etc etc.
OP, just know that you are not unreasonable to want to have a schedule you can plan around; but nobody here knows your ex and what their motivations are. If your spouse is somehow in a work situation where leaving at a prearranged time will get them fired, then you're all in a tough spot and you're going to have to figure out a way of accommodating it. If your spouse is a selfish asshole who manages his schedule just fine except when he doesn't feel like it, then that's another story.
So do try to figure out what's really going on. If he's acting in good faith, if he really does want to see the kid and is doing his best, a whole different approach will be appropriate than if he doesn't really care and has to be nagged into visiting at all.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:41 PM on December 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
OP, just know that you are not unreasonable to want to have a schedule you can plan around; but nobody here knows your ex and what their motivations are. If your spouse is somehow in a work situation where leaving at a prearranged time will get them fired, then you're all in a tough spot and you're going to have to figure out a way of accommodating it. If your spouse is a selfish asshole who manages his schedule just fine except when he doesn't feel like it, then that's another story.
So do try to figure out what's really going on. If he's acting in good faith, if he really does want to see the kid and is doing his best, a whole different approach will be appropriate than if he doesn't really care and has to be nagged into visiting at all.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:41 PM on December 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
I have a court agreed custody arrangement that in practice is more flexible. However I can default back to it when dad is being a dick. I highly recommend formalising the agreement even out of court. I write a monthly schedule up once a month and we settle dates and if he doesn’t confirm by the first of the month, that’s the schedule by default. If something comes up, I don’t reschedule. You don’t have a coparenting situation. You have a visiting parent. If he wants to engage further, be open to his scheduled requests but don’t volunteer them.
I want to add that part of this may be grief for your child, seeing them let down by a parent who is not prioritising them and does not want a closer relationship. My ex has started to detach from the kid we still share custody over. I had to separately process my anger and disappointment over this and come to accept that he is a lousy father and I can’t create an illusion of a good dad or somehow change him into one. I’m wondering if you also need to let go of that hope that he will wise up and realise what an awesome kid he is missing out on. It sucks.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:59 PM on December 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
I want to add that part of this may be grief for your child, seeing them let down by a parent who is not prioritising them and does not want a closer relationship. My ex has started to detach from the kid we still share custody over. I had to separately process my anger and disappointment over this and come to accept that he is a lousy father and I can’t create an illusion of a good dad or somehow change him into one. I’m wondering if you also need to let go of that hope that he will wise up and realise what an awesome kid he is missing out on. It sucks.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:59 PM on December 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
It doesn't matter what is reasonable or not because you have to work with the co-parent you have, not the co-parent you wish he would be. Even if there were perfect consensus on what was reasonable, there's no button you can push to change him.
I would consider working with a therapist to help *you* figure out how to plan for yourself what works best for you -emotionally and logistically - on the assumption that he will not change. I would consider talking to a lawyer about whether a formalized custody plan could be useful on a practical level and how.
posted by Salamandrous at 11:20 AM on December 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
I would consider working with a therapist to help *you* figure out how to plan for yourself what works best for you -emotionally and logistically - on the assumption that he will not change. I would consider talking to a lawyer about whether a formalized custody plan could be useful on a practical level and how.
posted by Salamandrous at 11:20 AM on December 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
There is a reason why you chose to not have a relationship with this man. When I divorced my husband, I decided I was not going to argue with him or butt heads with him any more, because if I were going to do that, I may as well have just stayed married to him. Yes, there were times when our son would be outside, sitting on the step waiting for his dad to show up and his dad didn't show up at all. But I felt it wasn't my responsibility (and it would be futile) to try to make his dad be a reliable father. (Of course, if there had ever been any illegal abuse, I would have stepped in!) I just made sure to not schedule anything for myself just in case son's dad did not show up. Not fair, of course, but I knew I'd never be able to change son's dad; if that were possible, I would not have needed to get divorced in the first place. (I do feel guilt for having chosen a father like that for my son, and I've made sure to have age-appropriate conversations with my son about coping when a loved-one disappoints, and why a loved-one might disappoint.)
posted by SageTrail at 1:18 PM on December 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by SageTrail at 1:18 PM on December 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Your actual queystion is Am I being unreasonable? I worry that you're being gaslighted (gaslit?) because his behavior is massively unreasonable, bad parenting, and shifting emotional and physical labor on to you, and probably a ton of financial burden.
There are a lot of missing details, but I recommend seeking a support judgement that allows you to hire help so that you can work, have a manageable life, and he can be lackadaisical. My ex- is utterly resistant to taking responsibility, including financial. So many of my plans got trashed because he just did what he wanted. No point getting angry, because the anger didn't accomplish anything. Push hard, order your life so it works, tell him to show up when he says without all this nonsense. He is an adult; there are many resources available to him. It's his job to, at a minimum, prioritize his child's needs. I am so, so sorry you and your child have to deal with this.
posted by theora55 at 5:06 PM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of missing details, but I recommend seeking a support judgement that allows you to hire help so that you can work, have a manageable life, and he can be lackadaisical. My ex- is utterly resistant to taking responsibility, including financial. So many of my plans got trashed because he just did what he wanted. No point getting angry, because the anger didn't accomplish anything. Push hard, order your life so it works, tell him to show up when he says without all this nonsense. He is an adult; there are many resources available to him. It's his job to, at a minimum, prioritize his child's needs. I am so, so sorry you and your child have to deal with this.
posted by theora55 at 5:06 PM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
You aren't being unreasonable at all, but I do want to point out the possibility that you could be acting ableist. A lot of disorganized people have executive functioning issues. In an ideal world they get the help they need to fit into the world's neurotypical expectations but that doesn't always happen. And even if this is an executive functioning problem the impact on children is still bad, so you're right to want to address it regardless.
posted by crunchy potato at 11:39 AM on December 21, 2020
posted by crunchy potato at 11:39 AM on December 21, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by bq at 8:54 AM on December 18, 2020 [56 favorites]