Can't I please take long-term vacation from this place?
March 23, 2006 9:53 PM Subscribe
Is it realistic for me, as an American, to entertain thoughts (read: dreams) of attending law school at Oxford?
I've got a pretty good GPA from a pretty prestigious American university. Haven't taken the LSAT yet, but am expecting a good score. My question has two parts: Do I stand a chance of getting in? Could I attend Oxford and still practice in the USA?
My question applies to any other prestigious British law schools as well, although Oxford is the only one tickling my farfetched fantasies at this point.
I've got a pretty good GPA from a pretty prestigious American university. Haven't taken the LSAT yet, but am expecting a good score. My question has two parts: Do I stand a chance of getting in? Could I attend Oxford and still practice in the USA?
My question applies to any other prestigious British law schools as well, although Oxford is the only one tickling my farfetched fantasies at this point.
Could I attend Oxford and still practice in the USA?
Practicing law is determined at the state level, and while the rules vary, in general you need a JD from an ABA-approved institution and to pass the bar exam (some state just require the exam).
A quick glance at the ABA site doesn't show Oxford as being on the approved list, although they do have resources for approved study abroad. You should look into their requirements.
That being said, I'm sure that if you actually attended and succeeded at Oxford, there would be companies jumping at the chance to recruit you and assist you in your career.
posted by frogan at 10:11 PM on March 23, 2006
Practicing law is determined at the state level, and while the rules vary, in general you need a JD from an ABA-approved institution and to pass the bar exam (some state just require the exam).
A quick glance at the ABA site doesn't show Oxford as being on the approved list, although they do have resources for approved study abroad. You should look into their requirements.
That being said, I'm sure that if you actually attended and succeeded at Oxford, there would be companies jumping at the chance to recruit you and assist you in your career.
posted by frogan at 10:11 PM on March 23, 2006
As frogan points out, although studying at Oxford won't get you directly into domestic practice, it will almost certainly be a very, very good indirect route that will be well worth the time and trouble if you can make the cut. Good luck.
posted by cribcage at 10:26 PM on March 23, 2006
posted by cribcage at 10:26 PM on March 23, 2006
You'd probably have to come back to the US and get an LLM (2 more years!), which is a total pain-in-the-ass way of doing things.
posted by falconred at 11:01 PM on March 23, 2006
posted by falconred at 11:01 PM on March 23, 2006
As frogan notes, the degree requirements for practicing law are different from state to state. I have a friend who recieved a LLM from Oxford and is now enrolled in a JD program stateside because he could not practice in Oregon without the JD. As he says, he did things a little backward (getting the LLM before the JD)
posted by miss meg at 11:26 PM on March 23, 2006
posted by miss meg at 11:26 PM on March 23, 2006
I don't know much about US law, but I am an Oxford graduate and some of my best friends are lawyers... The law degree from Oxford doesn't immediately qualify people to practice anywhere - they have to take another practical training year first (which is not offered at Oxford), followed by two years' training in a law firm. However, the Oxford law faculty website describes the degree as a 'qualifying law degree' for the purpose of practice as a solicitor or barrister in England and Wales'. So I don't know that it would help you at all to practice in the US.
Oxford does offer law as a 'second BA' for those with 'senior status (i.e. who already have a degree) and this means the degree takes two years instead of three. Note also that their course is called 'Jurisprudence' which I take as meaning that it isn't specifically UK law - though I imagine it is heavily weighted in favour of it.
In brief - contact someone at the law faculty, and ask. It looks like, if you hold a degree in a discipline other than law, you could be admitted to a research degree in law, or to the undergraduate programme, and that's about the limit of your options. Good luck.
posted by altolinguistic at 1:15 AM on March 24, 2006
Oxford does offer law as a 'second BA' for those with 'senior status (i.e. who already have a degree) and this means the degree takes two years instead of three. Note also that their course is called 'Jurisprudence' which I take as meaning that it isn't specifically UK law - though I imagine it is heavily weighted in favour of it.
In brief - contact someone at the law faculty, and ask. It looks like, if you hold a degree in a discipline other than law, you could be admitted to a research degree in law, or to the undergraduate programme, and that's about the limit of your options. Good luck.
posted by altolinguistic at 1:15 AM on March 24, 2006
The "second BA in Jurisprudence" that altolinguistic mentioned might be a great alternative. You could do that for two years, come back to the states and apply to (and probably get accepted at) some great law schools. Which would make things much easier on the bar-exam end here, and yet you could still say you studied law at Oxford.
posted by MrZero at 7:27 AM on March 24, 2006
posted by MrZero at 7:27 AM on March 24, 2006
As people have pointed out, becoming a lawyer works differently in the UK from the US. This has an implication for you about the level of study that's available here.
The standard path to become an English qualified solicitor is (a) 3 yr undergraduate degree in any subject (including, but not only, law), then (b) 1 or 2 years doing voactional training at a law school (1 year if your undergraduate degree was law, 2 if not), then (c) two years in a firm of solicitors in a "training contract".
The problem is that most post-grad level 'pure' law courses will require you to have an undergrad degree in law or have done (a) and (b) in the paragraph above. E.g. the requirements for the LLM at the LSE are here:
As a guide, students should have a minimum of a good degree in law (for example, a good upper second class English LLB, or good results in the French Maîtrise en droit, or a high grade point average in the American JD), or a good degree in another discipline together with an appropriate professional qualification in law
Though it seems that Miss Meg's friend was able to do it - so there's nothing to lose by getting in contact and seeing what they say.
If you were to go to Oxford for a BA law degree rather than a post-grad option you would be starting in the first year of an undergraduate programme with 19yr old recent school leavers. Whether that's good or bad is up to you!
One idea might be to look into one year taught programmes that are law related (any particular field you like? e.g. IP Law at Queen Mary is supposed to be good) but not pure law.
Drop me a line if you want more info.
posted by patricio at 9:01 AM on March 24, 2006
The standard path to become an English qualified solicitor is (a) 3 yr undergraduate degree in any subject (including, but not only, law), then (b) 1 or 2 years doing voactional training at a law school (1 year if your undergraduate degree was law, 2 if not), then (c) two years in a firm of solicitors in a "training contract".
The problem is that most post-grad level 'pure' law courses will require you to have an undergrad degree in law or have done (a) and (b) in the paragraph above. E.g. the requirements for the LLM at the LSE are here:
As a guide, students should have a minimum of a good degree in law (for example, a good upper second class English LLB, or good results in the French Maîtrise en droit, or a high grade point average in the American JD), or a good degree in another discipline together with an appropriate professional qualification in law
Though it seems that Miss Meg's friend was able to do it - so there's nothing to lose by getting in contact and seeing what they say.
If you were to go to Oxford for a BA law degree rather than a post-grad option you would be starting in the first year of an undergraduate programme with 19yr old recent school leavers. Whether that's good or bad is up to you!
One idea might be to look into one year taught programmes that are law related (any particular field you like? e.g. IP Law at Queen Mary is supposed to be good) but not pure law.
Drop me a line if you want more info.
posted by patricio at 9:01 AM on March 24, 2006
As others have mentioned, you may want to consider getting your J.D. over here and your LL.M. in the UK.
It's also important to know that if you're interested in practicing in the UK with a US degree, there's just a test you have to take to be eligible. It is expensive though...
posted by MeetMegan at 9:25 AM on March 24, 2006
It's also important to know that if you're interested in practicing in the UK with a US degree, there's just a test you have to take to be eligible. It is expensive though...
posted by MeetMegan at 9:25 AM on March 24, 2006
If your goal is to practice US law and you (will) already have an American bachelor degree, going to England to study law is not particularly helpful.
As mentioned above, it would take you four years to qualify as an English solicitor, paying tuition for two years and making a low salary for two more. A fully-qualified English lawyer can directly take the New York bar exam (or at least could do so recently, these rules can change quickly), but other states will either require a one-year US-law-school LLM for foreign students or won't honor your English qualifications at all.
This is not to say that you shouldn't go to Oxford / Cambridge / LSE etc., though! Take the GRE and apply for an one-year MA in something of interest to you. Apply to U.S. law schools while there, and you will have the best of all possible worlds, and come home for law school.
(Note, also that if you want to have the option to practice in London, going to a highly-ranked US law school is a perfectly fine option. London is chalk full of US-qualified lawyers; I'm not clear on the rules for a US-qualified lawyer to become a qualified solicitor, but I'm clear that very few people feel the need to do so, and enjoy a fine London career notwithstanding.)
posted by MattD at 10:53 AM on March 24, 2006
As mentioned above, it would take you four years to qualify as an English solicitor, paying tuition for two years and making a low salary for two more. A fully-qualified English lawyer can directly take the New York bar exam (or at least could do so recently, these rules can change quickly), but other states will either require a one-year US-law-school LLM for foreign students or won't honor your English qualifications at all.
This is not to say that you shouldn't go to Oxford / Cambridge / LSE etc., though! Take the GRE and apply for an one-year MA in something of interest to you. Apply to U.S. law schools while there, and you will have the best of all possible worlds, and come home for law school.
(Note, also that if you want to have the option to practice in London, going to a highly-ranked US law school is a perfectly fine option. London is chalk full of US-qualified lawyers; I'm not clear on the rules for a US-qualified lawyer to become a qualified solicitor, but I'm clear that very few people feel the need to do so, and enjoy a fine London career notwithstanding.)
posted by MattD at 10:53 AM on March 24, 2006
I think there's been some confusion, because maybe some of us who encouraged you weren't quite clear: Although studying law in the UK will not necessarily qualify you to practice law in the US, a degree from Oxford will help your career.
posted by cribcage at 11:48 AM on March 24, 2006
posted by cribcage at 11:48 AM on March 24, 2006
I was at Univ (University College, Oxford) for an MSc in '99-2000. There were many law students there. As I understand it, the truly major distinction in law is between the Anglo-Saxon and European (Napoleonic) versions. So law as practiced in France, Germany, and the rest of continental Europe differs vastly from law in the UK, Commonwealth, and even U.S. (although since 1783 our legal system has diverged, obviously.)
Despite this, a French woman was studying for her second BA there, and an Argentinian man was working on (I think) a DPhil.
There were also many Australians, an Icelandic guy, a Canadian, and an American guy doing some kind of 1-year MA in law.
Anyway, it might not help your career directly, but I would say that the experience is really worth it. Oxford is a pretty diverse and interesting place, especially at the grad level.
You'll want to look into all possible sources of funding--they like to bleed the rich Americans if possible. It's worth it to see if you qualify for any scholarships from your university, etc.
Good luck! I miss the dreaming spires.
posted by A dead Quaker at 8:26 PM on March 24, 2006
Despite this, a French woman was studying for her second BA there, and an Argentinian man was working on (I think) a DPhil.
There were also many Australians, an Icelandic guy, a Canadian, and an American guy doing some kind of 1-year MA in law.
Anyway, it might not help your career directly, but I would say that the experience is really worth it. Oxford is a pretty diverse and interesting place, especially at the grad level.
You'll want to look into all possible sources of funding--they like to bleed the rich Americans if possible. It's worth it to see if you qualify for any scholarships from your university, etc.
Good luck! I miss the dreaming spires.
posted by A dead Quaker at 8:26 PM on March 24, 2006
Best answer: I was a yank at Oxford, where I received my law degree (after Wharton). The comments above are terrific, here are some things to consider (I may have overlooked some of these points if they were made by others).
First, although UK law and US law are different, we WERE a colony at one point and our common law systems share similar values as well as a history. Obviously there are some important distinctions (the US is a federal system), but the type of legal REASONING in both countries is virtually identical.
Second, law is an undergraduate degree at Oxford (although accorded the status of a master's degree here in the States). I'm not sure how old you are but if you are graduating from an American college you will be 4 years older than your peers there. You may feel a bit isolated (I spent a lot of time in London as a result).
Third, law, as with ALL subjects at Oxford and Cambridge, is largely taught on a tutorial system, with lectures IMPORTANT but NOT required. They are worth attending even in legal topics you are not studying if the lecturer is outstanding.
Fourth, Oxford exams are at the END of your course of studies. So you will have a couple of weeks of Finals TWO YEARS after you've studied some subjects. This is very rigorous and NOT what you'd expect from American colleges (midterms, finals every 6-8 weeks).
Fifth, check with the individual state, but an Oxford degree entitles you to "sit for the bar" (take the bar exam) generally AFTER you have ALSO spent a year at an American law school (see previous point about general differences). So "reading law" at Oxford is NOT an efficient path to the legal profession.
Sixth, despite our common language, there are cultural and other differences (food, for one) that, on top of being in a strange country, pursuing a difficult subject, make your studies all the more difficult. It takes a LOT of getting used to.
posted by adamrobinson at 12:00 PM on March 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
First, although UK law and US law are different, we WERE a colony at one point and our common law systems share similar values as well as a history. Obviously there are some important distinctions (the US is a federal system), but the type of legal REASONING in both countries is virtually identical.
Second, law is an undergraduate degree at Oxford (although accorded the status of a master's degree here in the States). I'm not sure how old you are but if you are graduating from an American college you will be 4 years older than your peers there. You may feel a bit isolated (I spent a lot of time in London as a result).
Third, law, as with ALL subjects at Oxford and Cambridge, is largely taught on a tutorial system, with lectures IMPORTANT but NOT required. They are worth attending even in legal topics you are not studying if the lecturer is outstanding.
Fourth, Oxford exams are at the END of your course of studies. So you will have a couple of weeks of Finals TWO YEARS after you've studied some subjects. This is very rigorous and NOT what you'd expect from American colleges (midterms, finals every 6-8 weeks).
Fifth, check with the individual state, but an Oxford degree entitles you to "sit for the bar" (take the bar exam) generally AFTER you have ALSO spent a year at an American law school (see previous point about general differences). So "reading law" at Oxford is NOT an efficient path to the legal profession.
Sixth, despite our common language, there are cultural and other differences (food, for one) that, on top of being in a strange country, pursuing a difficult subject, make your studies all the more difficult. It takes a LOT of getting used to.
posted by adamrobinson at 12:00 PM on March 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
Seventh, I forgot to mention, that even if you wanted to pursue a legal career in England, you'd STILL have to satisfy other requirements if you want to become a barrister. Indeed, the legal practice (barrister) in England still retains its guild-like requirements. As such, many barristers in England may have studied French or history or even music before pursuing law. In England, at least at Oxford and Cambridge, an undergraduate degree is NOT, as it is almost universally in the States, a DIRECT CAREER PATH. The idea at Oxbridge is that learning ANYTHING in depth enables you to learn ANYTHING ELSE (as opposed to the States whose colleges encourage superficial learning with a bit of focus (majors) so that it is not until the GRADUATE level that one plumbs the depths of a subject.
posted by adamrobinson at 12:06 PM on March 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by adamrobinson at 12:06 PM on March 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by acoutu at 10:07 PM on March 23, 2006