Notarizing vs Witnessing, international edition
October 13, 2020 5:56 AM Subscribe
I need to make a "statutory declaration" in front of an "authorised witness" for my foreign passport renewal, and it seems my best option for an authorised witness is someone who is a notary. I'm confused about notarizing vs witnessing and how these map onto each other internationally.
For Reasons, I need to include a one-page Statutory Declaration with a New Zealand passport renewal. This is a form I write on and then sign in the presence of an "authorised witness" which per the form is a Justice of the Peace, a lawyer, a Registered Legal Executive, a Member of Parliament, or a Government Officer who has the authority to take statutory declarations. The form has a spot for me to sign in front of the witness and then a box that says "Authorized Witness sign here" with a spot for "official stamp" and a few checkboxes to select from for title (Justice of the Peace, MP, etc.)
Because I am in the US, I was advised that I can have a US notary public serve as my authorised witness. HOWEVER, I contacted a notary about this and they said that they can't be both the notary and the witness. I googled a bit about what notaries do in the US and am now very confused about how to proceed in a way that fits both the rules for what US notaries (in Pennsylvania) can/may do and what I need for this form.
I am asking here rather than going back to the passport office because it doesn't seem like they're familiar with the ins and outs of what notaries may do in the US (which seems complex and varies by state.) What service would I be asking for from a notary that fits my needs? I think I may need to figure out the specific language in advance to get the right thing.
For Reasons, I need to include a one-page Statutory Declaration with a New Zealand passport renewal. This is a form I write on and then sign in the presence of an "authorised witness" which per the form is a Justice of the Peace, a lawyer, a Registered Legal Executive, a Member of Parliament, or a Government Officer who has the authority to take statutory declarations. The form has a spot for me to sign in front of the witness and then a box that says "Authorized Witness sign here" with a spot for "official stamp" and a few checkboxes to select from for title (Justice of the Peace, MP, etc.)
Because I am in the US, I was advised that I can have a US notary public serve as my authorised witness. HOWEVER, I contacted a notary about this and they said that they can't be both the notary and the witness. I googled a bit about what notaries do in the US and am now very confused about how to proceed in a way that fits both the rules for what US notaries (in Pennsylvania) can/may do and what I need for this form.
I am asking here rather than going back to the passport office because it doesn't seem like they're familiar with the ins and outs of what notaries may do in the US (which seems complex and varies by state.) What service would I be asking for from a notary that fits my needs? I think I may need to figure out the specific language in advance to get the right thing.
Honestly, and I'm not an expert in this area, but it sounds to me as though the notary that you spoke to is getting unnecessarily hung up on the term "witness." In a lot of cases a form will require multiple witnesses who all have to sign in front of each other, such as finalizing a will or a medical power of attorney. A notary is supposed to witness all of those witnesses' signing, and affix their seal to the document after all have signed. In such a case, a notary cannot be one of the witnesses.
What you describe sounds more, to me, like a form that requires an official person to witness your own signature, and potentially to take your oath (which I believe some states allow notaries to do). It uses the term "authorized witness" to describe this person, likely either because that is a more generic term suitable for multiple legal systems, or because that is the specific term used in the jurisdiction where the form originated. But based on what you describe, I think a notary would be the right person. Try a couple of bank branches; there is often a manager who is also a notary. A town or city hall likely also has an actual justice of the peace whose services should be available for free or for a modest fee.
posted by gauche at 6:52 AM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
What you describe sounds more, to me, like a form that requires an official person to witness your own signature, and potentially to take your oath (which I believe some states allow notaries to do). It uses the term "authorized witness" to describe this person, likely either because that is a more generic term suitable for multiple legal systems, or because that is the specific term used in the jurisdiction where the form originated. But based on what you describe, I think a notary would be the right person. Try a couple of bank branches; there is often a manager who is also a notary. A town or city hall likely also has an actual justice of the peace whose services should be available for free or for a modest fee.
posted by gauche at 6:52 AM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks. I think the person I was in touch with does notary work on the side (which seemed convenient and good for social distancing), so I'm going to try a more structured notary service with an office--they might be more familiar with what's typical and less hung up on the words.
posted by needs more cowbell at 7:17 AM on October 13, 2020
posted by needs more cowbell at 7:17 AM on October 13, 2020
Ugh, I had to do this recently (not a passport, I was an executor on a NZ will). I needed to provide a "verified" copy of my passport info page, and a signature witnessed on a form.
The signature bit was exactly like what you're dealing with. I went to my bank's notary first. Apparently notaries at banks get audited closely, and won't do anything that looks even slightly non-standard. They also noted the witness/notary distinction that gauche mentions. The bank's notary told me to go to a UPS office: apparently their notaries are more flexible.
The guy at UPS also said he couldn't be a witness, and could only notarize the signature. So I got my girlfriend to sign the witness section, and he notarized her signature... not exactly as intended but was good enough for my purposes. I think if you explain the distinction, and maybe try a few different people, you'll get there in the end. Worst case you can do what I did- as long as there's a signature and some kind of official stamp I don't think the passport office will care too much. If you're really stuck, get the notary to write a statement like "I am not authorized to be an 'official witness' per the US definition, but I was present when needs more cowbell signed and dated this form, and here's my official notary stamp to prove it".
Getting the copy of my passport verified was another story- notaries in IL are specifically prohibited from doing this! I had to write a declaration that I believed the copy was true, and sign and date it in front of the notary. The notary then wrote "I only saw the writing of the signature above" and signed and dated it.
posted by Jobst at 7:37 AM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
The signature bit was exactly like what you're dealing with. I went to my bank's notary first. Apparently notaries at banks get audited closely, and won't do anything that looks even slightly non-standard. They also noted the witness/notary distinction that gauche mentions. The bank's notary told me to go to a UPS office: apparently their notaries are more flexible.
The guy at UPS also said he couldn't be a witness, and could only notarize the signature. So I got my girlfriend to sign the witness section, and he notarized her signature... not exactly as intended but was good enough for my purposes. I think if you explain the distinction, and maybe try a few different people, you'll get there in the end. Worst case you can do what I did- as long as there's a signature and some kind of official stamp I don't think the passport office will care too much. If you're really stuck, get the notary to write a statement like "I am not authorized to be an 'official witness' per the US definition, but I was present when needs more cowbell signed and dated this form, and here's my official notary stamp to prove it".
Getting the copy of my passport verified was another story- notaries in IL are specifically prohibited from doing this! I had to write a declaration that I believed the copy was true, and sign and date it in front of the notary. The notary then wrote "I only saw the writing of the signature above" and signed and dated it.
posted by Jobst at 7:37 AM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
I needed a statutory declaration witnessed to get a UK GRC (so NZ mileage may vary, obviously). I used a Minnesota notary. They weren't sure they'd count, but agreed they were a person whose signature came with an official stamp, so were probably the best I could do.
In addition to it being another country, your mileage may vary because the GRC process was seriously the only interaction I have ever had with the UK government that anticipated people living overseas. No idea if NZ is similarly generally useless.
posted by hoyland at 9:24 AM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
In addition to it being another country, your mileage may vary because the GRC process was seriously the only interaction I have ever had with the UK government that anticipated people living overseas. No idea if NZ is similarly generally useless.
posted by hoyland at 9:24 AM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: UPS notarized it without trouble. Success! Presumably it will be sufficient for the passport office, since they said a notary was ok, but I guess I’ll find out...
Thanks everyone. I’ll update when I know more.
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:24 AM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Thanks everyone. I’ll update when I know more.
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:24 AM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
For future comers. I just had a round of this with UK documents.
Most other countries don't have official notaries, and most notaries don't know this. The UK just loves things that require one of [list of professions here] to sign documents saying that this is indeed a true copy of your e.g. passport, and every time this has happened they took a notarised copy just fine. (It's probably more reliable as proof than the signature of your dentist or architect.) If you ask if a notary will do, though, they say 'what's a notary?'
Similarly, explaining anything to the notary about the terms of what you were asked for just makes them say that's not what they do. In US terms it's not ('witness' and 'certify' have specific connotations), but what they normally do is typically fine by the foreign usage of those terms; just leave them to do their usual job.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Most other countries don't have official notaries, and most notaries don't know this. The UK just loves things that require one of [list of professions here] to sign documents saying that this is indeed a true copy of your e.g. passport, and every time this has happened they took a notarised copy just fine. (It's probably more reliable as proof than the signature of your dentist or architect.) If you ask if a notary will do, though, they say 'what's a notary?'
Similarly, explaining anything to the notary about the terms of what you were asked for just makes them say that's not what they do. In US terms it's not ('witness' and 'certify' have specific connotations), but what they normally do is typically fine by the foreign usage of those terms; just leave them to do their usual job.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 5:57 PM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Just for other people / archival purposes: in China this is a nightmare! They have "notaries" but it seems like they will only sign / stamp stuff that they can attest is legally valid - they will not just affirm a signature. I ended up needing to pay $$$ for a Canadian lawyer in Shanghai to act as a "notary" for some documents, sucked big time.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:13 PM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Meatbomb at 6:13 PM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Yeah, the "list of professions" thing is frustrating. Especially because, as far as I know, lawyers in the US don't necessarily have an "official stamp" which the document wanted, and without that it's just a possibly-illegible signature and a box checked to say which profession they are, which wouldn't logically seem to add any level of legitimacy (even a veneer of legitimacy) to the whole thing.
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:25 PM on October 13, 2020
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:25 PM on October 13, 2020
Response by poster: Just to update further: while the notary seems to have been sufficient for the form I filled out, the statutory declaration wasn't that useful (even though I was told I needed one) and I ended up having to find someone from a (different) list of professions (registered medical professional, lawyer, clergy) who has known me for more than 12 months fill out an additional form attesting to my identity and also proving that they are who they are, which was a challenge In These Wacky Times. But it's done now and the new passport is making its way to me. Amusing timing since I feel more hopeful about the US these days, but still good to have.
posted by needs more cowbell at 12:53 PM on January 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 12:53 PM on January 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
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It's possible the notary is confused about what you need. The notary's job is to confirm that the people who are signing a document are who they say they are--they watched the signature take place. For a will or other US legal documents, you need witnesses, and then the notary validates the witnesses' signatures.
So it sounds like NZ is calling that validation/notarization "witnessing," and they just need your signature validated. If the notary is unfamiliar with the paperwork, depending what you said when you spoke to them, they may think that you need a document witnessed, which is a different thing.
I would explain again to the notary that what you need someone to notarize your signature, not to witness the document, and that NZ told you a notary would be appropriate.
posted by gideonfrog at 6:50 AM on October 13, 2020 [2 favorites]