Swallowing Pills For Adults

August 2, 2020 11:25 AM

I've never been able to swallow pills. Now I need to and every day is a struggle.

I was recently diagnosed with a condition requiring daily pills. One of the pills can be crushed, but the other must be swallowed (delayed release). There is another option, but the delayed release pills are more effective, and I'm pretty miserable right now so I'd really like to make this work. Whenever I try to swallow a pill, it's like my tongue stops working and I can't move the pill to the back of my throat. I'm aware it's all psychological as I can swallow candy and chunks of food way bigger than a pill but this has been a lifelong struggle.

First, I do not have any general swallowing difficulties. I have a completely normal swallow for all other things. Secondly, my pill has no restrictions on taking it with other food or drink and I don't have dietary restrictions. Thirdly, my pills are small. These are not horse pills by any means. They are also solid tablets, not capsules.

Question: What strategies have worked for you or someone you know for swallowing pills?

Every time I search online, it talks about a study using the pop bottle method. where you place the pill on your tongue, and basically make a suction with your mouth to a plastic bottle while drinking. This has been successful for me; however, every day I struggle more and more. It now takes me drinking 30-60 ounces of water, 20+ attempts, and I often have to wait an hour to try again because I get so bloated. It also makes me pee excessively for the next few hours, which is a problem as it's a nighttime pill and due to my medical condition, I already sleep poorly, so combining that with waking up to pee is not great.

But it's the only method I can really get to work. But this is a huge timesuck. The two issues I have are, the the pill is sucked out of my mouth into the bottle, or the pill just kinda floats around my mouth, sometimes getting stuck between my teeth and my gums.

I've also tried hiding it in my own food. I tried bananas, but I couldn't get the mashed banana to hold itself together, and if I can feel the texture of the pill at all, I can't move it to the back of my throat. Pudding was also a failure, I think for the same reason - it doesn't hold the pill suspended in it. Also tried rolling it up in a small peice of meat, but as always could feel the pill which means my tongue won't help me move it to the back of my throat.

The only food I've been successful with was macaroni and cheese, but it has to be elbow macaroni so I can stuff the pill inside the actual noodle. Due to the thick nature of the noodle, I can't feel the pill easily, allowing me to swallow easily. And the thick sauce means that it still feels like food to me, so I can be successful. The thing, having to have macaroni on hand all the time is annoying. Also I can't use just some basic kraft macaroni because the noodles they use are too narrow.

So to further clarify the question, are there any strategies to make taking the pill with water easier? Secondly, are there any other good foods to try putting it into? Anything soft, or that can melt are not working for me.

posted by anonymous to Health & Fitness (53 answers total)

Can you swallow gum? It's soft and sticky and doesn't dissolve, and tastes like food.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:27 AM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I used to be able to take pills only when I filled my mouth with water, popped the pill in, tilted my head forward so the pill floated towards the back of my mouth and swallowed. Have you tried a water-first approach?

Also, I am sorry, this sounds hard and frustrating.
posted by charmedimsure at 11:31 AM on August 2, 2020 [18 favorites]

When I was in Japan, I saw a gel substance sold for helping older adults swallow pills. I think it was like the protein-gel products runners & bikers use, or the novelty "would you eat this weird thing?" candy targeted at kids. Amazon lists a product specifically for this purpose: link.

Might be worth a try (the kids' candy stuff is probably cheaper!)
posted by spacewrench at 11:33 AM on August 2, 2020

One strategy people don’t always know is: drink (and swallow) some water just to make sure your throat isn’t dry, then take a reasonably large mouthful of water and THEN put the pill into your mouth and swallow. (Ack, jinx to the commenter above, I was typing this out when you posted! But it’s a solid technique.)

Also: I discovered that I should not lie down immediately after taking pills (like right before bedtime) or they get stuck very painfully somewhere on the way down, enough that I had a “WTF I have been taking pills successfully for years did I develop some kind of swallowing disorder suddenly?” phase) Taking them before I go to brush my teeth seems to be enough time to avoid that.
posted by needs more cowbell at 11:34 AM on August 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

My boyfriend had exactly the same issue. I ended up dipping his pills in melted chocolate ( melted and cooled to room temperature). I put the melted chocolate in a piping bag, piped little dots of it on parchment paper, then pushed the pills inside and topped with more chocolate. I kept those in the fridge, clearly labelled.

If that's too involved for you, you might try to hide into other types of ready-made foods? Maybe small gummy bears depending on the size of your pills? Or other chocolate candy?
posted by PardonMyFrench at 11:37 AM on August 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

I can’t swallow pills in the typical pill-then-water method. I can only do it if I put the water in my mouth first, then the pill, and then sort of tilt my head back so it slides towards my throat then quickly tip my head forward again as I swallow. Everyone who has ever seen me do this has laughed at me but it works. I take multiple vitamins every day, and have for years, no problem.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 11:41 AM on August 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

I had this problem. It's like I forget how to swallow if there's a pill in there. Now I set the pill on my tongue as far back as is comfortable, take a big gulp of water into my mouth, tilt head back, and focus on swallowing just the water. The pill is washed down on the river of water.
posted by shadygrove at 11:42 AM on August 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

My mother used applesauce, but I realize you have tried many foods already. I also remember seeing her use the scheme described by shadygrove. FWIW
posted by forthright at 11:44 AM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I wonder if burying a pill in a lump of frozen cookie dough could work? You could tell your brain that any hard edges or lumps you feel are just bits of chocolate chip.
posted by prewar lemonade at 11:47 AM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

it's like my tongue stops working and I can't move the pill to the back of my throat.

What? It is isn't food! Open your mouth as wide as possible , hold the pill between your thumb and forefinger, and place it at the back of your mouth, on your tongue.

You probably want to hold a glass of water in your other hand and swallow immediately, but I can stack 6 or 7 pills back there before I swallow them down.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:55 AM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I had the exact same problem and can second the water-first approach. What I do is: big gulp of water that I don't swallow, pop the pill between my lips, then another gulp of water to wash it all down. You don't even notice the pill that way. The general idea is just to completely fill your mouth with water - sipping just doesn't work for me.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:56 AM on August 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Until I was in my thirties, I had the idea I needed to tip my head back to swallow pills, and it was a real battle every time. Then someone told me no, fill your mouth with water and put the pill in your mouth without swallowing the water, then tip your head forward and swallow—it makes the pill float back towards your throat. It has worked for me almost every time since, even for fairly large pills.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:03 PM on August 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

This sounds so mentally exhausting, I’m sorry you’re going through this.

When I needed to teach my kid to swallow pills, we practiced with M&Ms, starting with the mini version. Before that he would gag and throw up every time he tried to swallow a pill. I think it was helpful for him to practice the mechanics of how to do it and also to internalize the idea that he could swallow this little tablet shaped thing without it being scary. And he got to eat a few M&Ms every time he tried so there was a positive reinforcement there too.

My kid prefers the water-first approach too. He says otherwise he can taste the pill on his tongue and it has a sticky feeling. He fills his mouth super full of water and then pops the pill in and gulps it down.
posted by beandip at 12:05 PM on August 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Yes, mouthful of water method is the only thing that works for me.
posted by Twicketface at 12:09 PM on August 2, 2020

I agree with the big gulps of water advice. I find it helps to visualize the pill as a surfer engulfed by a giant wave. Like, your tongue forms the wave, and the pill floats in the middle of the giant mouthful of water, so that once the pill leaves your tongue it gets gulped down your throat within the water and doesn't touch back down anywhere that triggers the gag reflex.
posted by oh yeah! at 12:09 PM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I am currently a proponent of the mouth full of water method, but as a child, I concealed it in ice cream
posted by notjustthefish at 12:18 PM on August 2, 2020

I find using a liquid other than water helps somewhat. Maybe in combination with some of these other suggestions it might work.

Good luck. I learned to swallow pills as an adult and it really is hard to persuade your mouth/tongue to do it. Hugs.
posted by sciencegeek at 12:22 PM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

To add to the water then pill idea: if your mouth is completely full of water, the maximum amount of water that will fit in your mouth, and then you push the pill though your lips and swallow, then there’s nowhere else for it to go it down and the body is expecting a big gulp so it doesn’t get stuck in the throat as much. If it’s the chalky kind of pill that gets stuck in your mouth, you could try a thicker drink like a smoothie.
posted by delezzo at 12:23 PM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

*waves* Lifelong pill-gagger here. I can now reliably take my daily meds most days.

What I've found helpful:

1. Fuck water. Soda, or at least a fizzy or flavorful beverage, is so much better. "Thicker" sodas like root beer are the most effective for me, but Diet Coke also works. The flavor and bubbles sufficiently distract my mouth and throat so I don't feel the pill as it goes down.

2. No more than two or three tries at swallowing at a time. More than that is just an exercise in futility. Change position, do something else for a minute.

3. I find capsules easier to take than tablets. You can buy empty capsule shells on Amazon (including packs with multiple sizes to try out). (Seriously- my PCP wrote me for a capsule at one point. I did a freakout at seeing them because seriously how am I getting this down? Went in with the soda, expecting many many tries. Went down the first time.) Plus with capsules you can do the "lean forward" method for swallowing (basically, lean your head forward/down when swallowing capsules, versus tilting your head back for tablets), which seems to be how I sit normally, so it's more natural-feeling.
posted by smangosbubbles at 12:38 PM on August 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

One trick is that you swallow capsules differently than tablets because capsules float. When swallowing capsules, tip your head forward so that the pill floats to the back of your mouth then swallow. Swallowing capsules used to be a chore for me and now it is really easy.

Edit: oops I see now that it’s the first answer already. But it really did work for me.
posted by sjswitzer at 12:45 PM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Before taking a pill, have a couple sips of water to lubricate your esophagus and to get the swallowing muscles limbered up, so to speak. I find the consistency of applesauce helpful.

There is a component that becomes psychological because every unpleasant attempt makes the next attempt harder and of course unpleasant things are not pleasant so you resist them. I always recommend rewards, but rewards can be really successful. Every time you swallow a pill, put a star on a calendar. For 3 drawn stars, put a sticker on the calendar. For every 3 stickers, give yourself a tangible reward of some sort. It helps your brain get on board.
posted by theora55 at 1:13 PM on August 2, 2020

I'm one of those people who just swallows pills. I had some difficulties once I became pregnant, and had to relearn how.

Too much water means I lose control of the pill in my mouth, which is distressing, especially ones that have an oval shape, with a clear right way/wrong way to go down.
Pills need to be lubricated though- I roll them through my mouth as I move them to the back and swallow down. Then follow up with water. I sometimes drink before to help my salivary glands out.

Liquid+control is a summary of my method.
posted by freethefeet at 1:31 PM on August 2, 2020

Somewhere a long time ago on the internet I read that eating a few bites of something BEFORE attempting to swallow a pill can help it go down easier. Something about the act of chewing and swallowing relaxes the various parts of your mouth, esosphagus, etc. to make it easier to then swallow the pill with liquid. I have had good luck with that method when I have needed to take larger pills, so I hope it helps if you try it out.
posted by Lady Sugar Maple at 1:32 PM on August 2, 2020

don't put the pill on your tongue. That method is for people who don't have a problem with pills.

People like you and me need to fill our mouth with a large sip of water, hold our head back enough so that when drop the pill in it floats on the water undetectably, and then swallow the whole mouthful, which will just feel like water. Don't rush it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:43 PM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Seconding the head-forward suggestion. For me: head forward and something really thick to drink: keffir/yogurt drink, smoothies, milkshakes, or soup are the best sources for me.
posted by TwoStride at 1:43 PM on August 2, 2020

I have the same issue. Try chewing up some dry oats. It'll form a thick lump that you can stick the pill in and swallow (plus oats are inexpensive).
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 1:52 PM on August 2, 2020

Useful strategy, most days, and different than hiding it inside your food before eating it: eat a handful of nuts, or other food, chew to the point that it's a paste (or less, to your taste), then toss the pill in your mouth, bury or fold the pill in the paste with your tongue, in mouth, swallow the food with the pill inside. Follow with water chaser (one glass). If you've got the food down your throat, you've taken the pill with it. By chewing food for a while before incorporating the medication, you may find that your body generates saliva, and probably will have a swallow-response generated, it will want to swallow whatever you throw its way.

Like you, I typically find water-only pill consumption creates more complications than it's worth. I used to be able to work it, but this is an approach that works for me every time.
posted by the letter at 1:54 PM on August 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

I have to coat my mouth in milk or coffee to take hard to swallow pills. Mouthwash works too.
posted by Kitchen Witch at 2:40 PM on August 2, 2020

Primary method: mouthful of water first, pill dropped in, then swallow the whole thing, then another big gulp of water to make sure it goes down the whole way.

Secondary method: eat some spoonfuls of yogurt normally. Put another spoonful in mouth, add pill, swallow. Works best with a thick yogurt so pill stays suspended. Also need to follow up with more yogurt/water to make sure it goes down.
posted by nat at 2:48 PM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Like beandip above, I used M and Ms to help my kid learn to swallow pills. In our case, the M&Ms were actually too much, we had to cut M&Ms into quarters, which is basically a crumb of candy, then halves, then finally whole M&Ms. Yes it took a couple of weeks practice but it worked.
posted by nantucket at 3:00 PM on August 2, 2020

The letter has it right. I take my morning pill with toast. Chew until you've formed the bolus, you're just about to swallow and you throw in the pill to be dragged down with the food. So much easier than any type of liquid.
posted by Carravanquelo at 3:17 PM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I used to have troubles swallowing pills, but I don't anymore.

What worked for me: chew up a cracker/chip until it's all mushy in my mouth, stick the pill in the middle of the cracker mush, swallow cracker mush.
posted by Robocat at 3:20 PM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s miserable; I often experience the same pill-swallowing anxiety (and have had other swallowing issues during quarantine, too). It always amazes my when my boyfriend swallows a giant multivitamin with NO water. And here I am, gulping water and dribbling all over my shirt, trying to swallow a tiny allergy pill.

What sometimes helps me is drinking a somewhat thicker liquid, like iced coffee or milk, instead of water. It feels like the pill can sort of slip around in there, instead of sticking to my gums. What also helps is taking pills while I’m distracted: watching tv, listening to a podcast, or just puttering with something. This helps make the process feel more natural and less like OKAY NOW IT IS TIME TO SWALLOW THESE TINY PEBBLES AND TRY NOT TO CHOKE! Sending all the luck with this. You’re not alone.
posted by sucre at 3:40 PM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I do them with coffee now. Same big gulp method as mouthful-of-water posters above. Good luck, I'm sending you kindness and patience, which you'll need and you deserve.
posted by lokta at 3:54 PM on August 2, 2020

Practice with Tic Tacs. They dissolve in your mouth, so will get smaller while sitting on your tongue. Initially you might have to wait for it to dissolve a ways before successfully swallowing, but practicing everyday will help teach your muscles how to do it. Then you’ll be able to do it without waiting for them to dissolve, and they are similar in size to most pills. You don’t need a huge gulp of water with this, starting smaller is fine.
posted by panther of the pyrenees at 4:03 PM on August 2, 2020

I used to struggle with this, and the big gulp of water everyone recommends was the opposite of helpful. I found it went much better for me with just a very tiny sip. I also used to eat and swallow a couple of bites of something like toast, and then vividly visualize and act out taking another bite, chewing it, and then right after I popped the pill as far back as I could, swallowing the imagined food with the tiny sip of water. Over time, I got used to it and no longer had to do anything special.
posted by daisyace at 4:29 PM on August 2, 2020

- mouthful of water, float the pill back there. (rare: purse your lips a tiny bit and suck in air, through the water, in the manner of a wine taster. As with the fizzy advice, some find the air/water mix to be key.)
- goop: pill in a spoonful of honey, swallow the honey? Or take your pills with one of those little snack size cups of chocolate pudding and chase it down with that. Bonus pudding!
- (advanced) bullseye the uvula. Bypass the tongue and just flick it way back there. I've seen people who can dry-swallow pills use this method. It's as if you were singing opera on your motorcycle and swallowed a bug. Gulp!
posted by bartleby at 4:34 PM on August 2, 2020

I had trouble learning as a tween (still remember that day my mom was trying to convince me I could do it and I was failing and just wanted my old familiar chewable Tylenol already even though I was off the weight/dosage chart), and have had to get good at it as an adult (three dozen pills a day) This is what works for me:

- Put pill in mouth
- Use tongue to move between molars (I always use the left side) and close teeth gently
- Holding pill in place with teeth, part lips just enough to begin to sip water
- As water is flowing into mouth, part teeth just a little and let the flow of water carry itself and the pill toward a swallow
- Swallow and keep with the water for another swallow if needed.
posted by jocelmeow at 5:38 PM on August 2, 2020

Fuck water. You want orange juice. It works much, much better.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:43 PM on August 2, 2020

I had trouble taking pills as a kid and teenager and would sometimes kind of choke on them and it was awful. I now take them with zero difficulty. I don't know if what worked for me will work for you but here's hoping. I think just two main things:

1) take them with a liquid with a flavor so you're not tasting the pill, which would sometimes make me immediately clench up and not be able to swallow the pill

oh 1a) If tasting the pill is an issue for you, you can get gelatin capsules to go around the pill, I think.

but for me the main thing was

3) Put the liquid in your mouth. THEN squoosh the pill in and swallow.

I think this is probably individual and don't know if these will do it for you but it seemed worth sharing because it's now a non-issue for me and I used to dread it.
posted by less of course at 10:07 PM on August 2, 2020

...which is exactly what tons of people already said. I should read. I just got all "I KNOW THIS ONE."
posted by less of course at 10:10 PM on August 2, 2020

Everyone has given excellent practical advice so I wanted to give you an Inspiring Story: I spent my life up until age 19/20-ish? not being able to swallow medication I had to take daily (or risk going into shitty withdrawal). I would crush it up and put it in peach or pear Gerber baby food. One day I was on vacation in another city far from my home for three nights and realized I had forgotten my pill crusher and baby food and there was no way to get more. I had to hit it or quit it. And so.....I swallowed it. I think I turned on the hotel tv and just did not think about it as much as possible? It was fine. From then on I was able to swallow pills. (?!)

All of this to say, I don't know why or how it happened. But I had such intense, performance profound anxiety and stress about it and it was totally fine, even in a situation where there wasn't a choice. You have plenty of time to figure out a good method, and once you get past the initial stage of stress you'll be 100% fine too.
posted by colorblock sock at 10:15 PM on August 2, 2020

I had this problem as a kid (10 or 12), and to this day I can't eat sprinkles on ice cream because the capsules I couldn't take at the time were full of little medicinal sprinkles that mom could stir into ice cream in order to get me to consume them. Really turned me off ice cream for a while, but don't worry, I'm back on it.

I beat it thanks to my mother, a nurse who doesn't give up or let up on stubborn patients like me, and one of these cups, a Pill Taker's cup. It's a small plastic water glass with some vertical plastic slats on one side that form a shelf. Drop a pill on the shelf, take a gulp of water from this glass, and the cup must come with it.

It took time, like all things, but I did learn to take pills, and I'm sympathetic. I learned to take capsules before tablets, by the way, in this process. If you do the same, but your time-release is not a capsule, well, you can buy empty gelatin capsules, and maybe you can find one large enough for your pill. In any case, you can also buy these to practice pill taking-- I'm not kidding. Search the everything store or your local drugstore or supplements store for empty gelatin capsules. Fill them with something inert for weight (flour? sugar, I dunno), or don't, and practice taking pills with the low low consequence of occasionally fishing a gooey bit of semi-melted gelatin out of your mouth. It's not bad, and doesn't taste like anything. Vegetarian, kosher, whatever, it's available cheap.
posted by Sunburnt at 11:02 PM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Someone on the internet suggested mochi for pill pockets which actually might be brilliant if it works. Mochi freezes pretty well so you could keep it on hand. You could adapt homemade pill pockets for dogs but I can't guess whether they'd freeze well after baking. With the tapioca starch they might.

OMG, the kind of pill-shelf cup that Sunburnt links worked amazingly for me and I had totally forgotten about it.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:30 PM on August 2, 2020

Two suggestions:

1) as mentioned by the letter, take with food. A nurse explained it to me thus: your pharynx is remarkably good at telling solids from liquids, so taking pills with water is self defeating for many people. Chew up something like bread till you're ready to swallow, then pop in the pill and let them go down together.

OR

2) a bit gross to talk about, but backed by personal experience: some candies (especially those of a gel consistency) make my spit a lot slimier for a limited time. (I'm not the only one, am I?) Eat some of these and - when finished - put the pill in your mouth and get it well coated before swallowing with water. An advantage is that it gives a daily excuse to consume some of your favorite sweets.
posted by wjm at 2:53 AM on August 3, 2020

I have the same problem. I find I have more success when I tell myself I'm swallowing a mouthful of water, not swallowing a pill with a mouthful of water. In other words, I put the pill on my tongue, then I try to forget about the pill, and concentrate on glugging as much water as possible.
posted by snarfois at 8:40 AM on August 3, 2020

I use the letter's method as well. I chew whatever the food item is normally and then toss the pill in just before I swallow. The food item can vary -- this morning I took my pills with cinnamon rolls, last night with curry and rice and leftover meatballs, and sometimes I just take it with a gummy bear -- just as long as the food item is not super dry and scratchy like pita chips. It's best if I've just been eating a regular meal or snack, so my swallowing reflex has been warmed up. I don't chew extra thoroughly, it doesn't help me and it's not how I normally eat anyway.
posted by spamandkimchi at 8:49 AM on August 3, 2020

Here’s what works: grab the table (like in the movies when someone takes a tequila shot), squeeze it, toss your head back, and gulp. You can use water or juice, but nothing carbonated. Source: I am a nurse and have successfully used this method with hundreds of patients who could not swallow pills! Good luck :)
posted by stillmoving at 12:10 PM on August 3, 2020

I learned by practicing with individual soft-cooked peas.
posted by egeanin at 12:33 PM on August 3, 2020

in centre of small spoon of peanut (or other nut) butter, place nut butter on tongue, immediately wash down with drink of choice.
posted by lalochezia at 7:39 PM on August 3, 2020

Like other have said, I fill my mouth with water first, drop the pill in, then swallow it all. My brain thinks "Ooh, water!" and lets it in, even if it is a bigger pill.

I am currently taking *huge* pills, three at a time, and they make my throat feel like it is full. But this trick still works.

I will also say this: when I started using contact lenses I was distraught. How can it be so hard?! Why won't the lens just pop onto my eye easily?!

Six weeks later it was a reflex, and now I can take out/put in contacts without a mirror or anything. It just took practice.
posted by tacodave at 8:38 PM on August 3, 2020

I could not swallow pills until I was 30, when I finally figured out what other people have said above about water (or any liquid) not working because your brain knows that liquid isn't supposed to be solid and your throat puts a stop to that nonsense.

Count me as another vote for the letter's method. I figured this out much in the way that you seem to be heading: you realize you can swallow food, so WTF, right? Pills are smaller than food!

Take a bite (or a handful) of something that is not crispy/crunchy -- something that will become mushy, but not soupy, when you chew it - a burger is a good example, or grapes, or even a nice piece of sourdough bread with butter. Chew, but don't swallow. Open your mouth and put the pill behind the mush in your mouth, then swallow as per usual. The pill goes down behind the food and you never know the difference. I can take all ten pills I have to take each evening on a mouthful of cherry tomatoes, or a fig newton!

You can do it!
posted by tzikeh at 9:27 PM on August 3, 2020

Just coming back to say that at least some of this is mental. I always had trouble swallowing pills, and then at some point in my 20's I figured it out (I think what helped me was remembering all the times I'd accidentally swallowed gum, and trying to mimic that process). While swallowing horse pills or multiples at once never became easy, it stopped being a challenge about 95% of the time.

Ever since I read this thread a week ago, I started having problems swallowing pills all over again. Not sure how to overcome it, but at least you've all given me some new techniques to try if all else fails...
posted by Mchelly at 8:02 AM on August 10, 2020